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Nancy Grace
Scientists Testify About Evidence in Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 06, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body. And instead of calling 911, father George hides Caylee`s body, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.
Bombshell tonight. Torpedo to the defense. A renowned scientist confirms tot mom`s car reeking of the powerful knock-out drug chloroform plus the, quote, "shocking" stench of a dead body. In fact, the scientist jumps back several feet at the smell. The FBI on the witness stand describes an alleged hair of 2-year-old Caylee`s with a death band around the hair root found in tot mom`s trunk. This as defense attorney Jose Baez insists it wasn`t little Caylee in tot mom`s trunk, it was pounds and pounds of raw hamburger meat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a trace evidence examiner at the FBI laboratory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My areas of expertise include anthropology, biology, chemistry...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am an assistant supervisor of the crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Scientific testimony is dominating the Casey Anthony murder trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is my label identifying what`s inside the can.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: It`s sickening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was sealed with evidence tape and my initials around the top.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the amount of chloroform that you found surprise you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were shocked.
CASEY ANTHONY: People really need to get a life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have never seen chloroform in that level.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has a darkened band at the root portion of the hair consistent with apparent decomposition.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know the most negative stuff that`s being said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was the odor in the vehicle the same?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. There still was a strong odor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The odor...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What died?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would recognize this as human decomposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Torpedo to the defense. A renowned scientist confirms tot mom`s car reeking of the powerful knockout drug chloroform, plus the, quote, "shocking" stench of a dead body. In fact, the scientist jumps back several feet at the smell. This as defense attorney Jose Baez suggests it wasn`t little Caylee in the trunk, it was pounds and pounds of raw hamburger meat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smelled of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stages of decomposition, fresh stage, bloat stage, active decay, dry stage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smell of a body or decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s a possibility, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I essentially jumped back a foot or two. The odor was extremely overwhelming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very potent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was shocked that that little bitty could have that much odor associated with it.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know what I`m honestly up against. You guys understand what I`m honestly up against.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The source of the odor that you analyzed from the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent with human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hair was a Caucasian head hair that had characteristics of apparent decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An overpowering smell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a decomposing human body in the trunk of that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can find no other plausible explanation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Still smell?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At the end of the day, you still can`t say that that hair came from a dead body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has characteristics that are consistent with that, but I can`t say absolutely.
CASEY ANTHONY: It sucks for them because I have nothing to say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank goodness I don`t find all these children (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, Judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could find also these items in a hamburger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if that`s true. First of all, the hamburger would have to be completely raw. You`d have to have a huge percentage of fat in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest at the end of the courthouse day in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony, accused in the murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s body found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, discarded, thrown away in a makeshift pet cemetery in a densely wooded area.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, bombshells on the stand. Not only do we hear from renowned scientist Arpad Vass regarding the stench in the trunk, but Jose Baez through the witness stand suggests that raw hamburger meat could have made the same results, referring specifically to the fatty acids that came from Caylee`s body as it decomposed, leaving that stain at the base of the car trunk. He actually said, Could it have been hamburger meat, raw hamburger meat?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You better believe he did. Now, this started on direct because there were paper towels in the trunk of that car that were found through chemical analysis to have fatty acids. Doctor Vass testified that`s the breakdown of human tissue. But on cross-examination, Jose Baez said, But it could be hamburger meat on those paper towels. The response from the witness -- You know, it would have to be raw hamburger meat, there would have to be many, many pounds, and somebody would have to eat with a paper bag over their head because it was anaerobic conditions, without any air at all.
GRACE: This is what happened in court. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could find also these items in a hamburger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know if that`s true. First of all, the hamburger would have to be completely raw. You`d have to have a huge percentage of fat in it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could also find this in chicken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not know if that`s true or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What was that last thing he said, Jean? What did he...
CASAREZ: He said chicken.
GRACE: What`s it going to be, raw hamburger meat, Arby`s, Chick-Fil-A by the end of the week? What is he thinking?
CASAREZ: Well, here`s what the defense is trying to show. They don`t want a body in that trunk. They are trying to give credence, actually, to his results by saying, But it`s all trash. It was trash in the trunk, and that`s what you found through your chemical analysis.
GRACE: To Diane Dimond, special correspondent with "Newsweek" and DailyBeast. Diane, I just -- I -- to me, that is making a mockery of science, to suggest to this jury -- and a lot of people are saying, Oh, can this jury understand science? Well, listen, let me tell you something. If a bunch of TV journalists can understand it, I think that jury is going to be able to understand it, as well. And to suggest that this stain in the bottom of the trunk, which clearly, according to Arpad Vass, the scientist from Oak Ridge, says is from a human decomposing body, to suggest it`s raw hamburger meat or chicken?
DIANE DIMOND, "NEWSWEEK"/DAILYBEAST: Yes. You know, it`s that old trick that lawyers do, Nancy. You know this trick very well -- throw a lot of spaghetti against the wall and hope something sticks. I kept looking for a fair fight there today...
GRACE: No, actually, Diane...
DIMOND: ... and I didn`t really see it.
GRACE: I`ve never thrown spaghetti on the wall to a jury...
DIMOND: Well, you were never a defense attorney.
GRACE: ... and hope it sticks.
DIMOND: You were never a criminal defense attorney. Look, you know what Jose Baez is trying to do. He`s trying to give some other possible reason why the trunk smelled the way it did. But look, Nancy, this is not the only person saying it. Cindy said it, George said it, Lee said it, the man at the tow yard said it. This car...
GRACE: Simon Birch (ph).
DIMOND: ... right -- like a dead body. And now we have a scientist saying it, too. So I don`t know what Baez was trying to prove, but I don`t think he did himself or his client any good today.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, former attorney for Jesse Grund, the fiance of tot mom, Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney who`s tried many, many criminal cases. To both of you. Isn`t there a point where you know you`re not going to win arguing the science? That`s like arguing that fingerprints aren`t for real, all right? So just drop it. You got to come up with another argument as to why your client`s fingerprint is on the murder weapon, all right? Number one. You`re not going to win arguing science. You`re not going to win arguing methodology. So at a certain point, shouldn`t you, Darryl Cohen, just sit down and shut up and come up with a good argument in closing argument as to why the facts are as they are?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I agree with you. Sometimes and many times, when it comes to scientific and forensic evidence, the best cross-examination is, No questions, Your Honor, and sit down, get it away from the jury so that they no longer have to pound (ph) on the type of testimony that they`ve just heard. This is stupid, in my view, and it`s really hurting their client.
GRACE: Or another thing, Penny, in a nutshell, what they could do is forget the ridiculous cross-exam of comparing the decomposing fatty acids coming from Caylee`s body to chicken, raw chicken or hamburger meat, drop it, limit the cross-exam and bring their own scientists at the end of their case to combat what Arpad Vass said. Why did they do this, Penny?
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree that they should bring their own expert. I think they`re just trying to get this expert to admit that there are other things that it could possibly be because all of reports seem to say it could be human decomposition, it may be human decomposition, but they`re not saying it is.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, camped here outside the Orlando courthouse. To Natisha Lance. Bottom line, is the jury going to be able to smell those air samples taken out of tot mom`s trunk?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: I think that`s something that still has yet to be determined, Nancy. Judge Perry has yet to rule on that. But there is so much evidence that keeps on coming in about that smell in the trunk of car. Not only did we hear from Arpad Vass today, but he also said that of the 10 components that would make up decomposition, this trunk consisted of eight.
GRACE: We have now moved into the second phase of the state`s case. Up until now, we have heard a chronological series of what happened once Caylee was last seen. We`ve seen tot mom`s bizarre behavior in the days after Caylee goes missing. And now it`s time for hard science.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you first opened it, what was your reaction?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa! I know what that smells like.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) smell took my breath away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I essentially jumped back a foot or two. The odor was extremely overwhelming and strong.
CASEY ANTHONY: People have been lying to you guys not for our best interests, not for our family, not for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen, something happened to Caylee. The longer this goes, the worse it`s going to for everyone. Everyone! The worse it`s going to be for everyone. Right now, everything you`ve told us, we`ve locked you into a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She spins tales, all these crazy stories about all this stuff.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: You`re blaming me that you`re sitting in the jail by yourself for telling lies?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As she hung up, she said, Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you`re telling me is a lie, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I`ve told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers.
CASEY ANTHONY: What do I have to say? I want my daughter back. I want to be with my family. That`s it. That`s all they need to know because that`s -- that`s all I have to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are here outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee. Today, bombshells on the stand. A renowned scientist, Arpad Vass, from the Oak Ridge Laboratories in Tennessee to describe the overwhelming stench he said he knew immediately was a dead body. But then did he have the science to back it up? Defense attorney Jose Baez actually claiming to the jury through the witness stand that possibly the source of the fatty acid stain found in the bottom of tot mom`s trunk was actually from raw hamburger meat or maybe even raw chicken. The scientist pointed out it would take pounds and pounds of raw hamburger meat in tot mom`s trunk to replicate the stain that was found there. He wouldn`t even commit to that.
That as the jury sat and listened to -- first let me go to Natisha Lance. Natisha, what was tot mom`s reaction during all of this? I mean, when I found out that John David had scraped his toe and it had been bleeding for about 10 minutes at the bottom of the swimming pool we were at, I was -- I couldn`t wait to go find a Band-Aid. And she`s listening to evidence about her child`s decomposing body in the trunk of her car. Did she have any reaction at all?
LANCE: There was no reaction from Casey Anthony whatsoever, Nancy. You`re absolutely right. You`re hearing about the organs becoming liquid, and no reaction from Casey Anthony whatsoever. The jurors, however, were listening so closely to Arpad Vass, they were leaned over in the seats. A few of them were even taking notes. And also, George and Cindy Anthony in the back of the courtroom. Cindy Anthony was also scribbling down notes.
GRACE: You know, I don`t know how much more George and Cindy Anthony can endure.
What we`re showing you are a lot of the exhibits in the courtroom today, just mounds and mounds of exhibits in brown paper bags. They were opened up, many of them. And also, you saw a dryer sheet. It was proven in court today that -- remember Cindy Anthony, grandmother Cindy, put Febreze and dryer sheets to try to mask or get rid of the stench. They could not cause what was found in that trunk.
To Michael -- Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining us out of Denver. What do they mean by fatty acids resulting from human decomposition?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: All humans have fat underneath our skin and around our organs. That fat decomposes into a series of chemical compounds, and those chemical compounds are what Dr. Vass has looked for with his instruments.
GRACE: Dr. Arnall, how can Jose Baez with a straight face compare this to raw hamburger meat? I don`t understand.
ARNALL: Nancy, he`s in a tough situation. There`s probably very little that`s going to be able to be said that would dispute Dr. Vass`s testimony. He`s obligated to say something, but this is probably the wrong choice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl! I need to find her!
I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find any hairs that showed evidence of apparent decomposition?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the items showed -- had a hair that exhibited the characteristics of decomposition.
CASEY ANTHONY: Life`s not fair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re similar in length and color to that of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I could just -- I couldn`t even describe what...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it an offensive (ph) smell?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Awful.
CASEY ANTHONY: They`re twisting stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) smell (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: I wish that, like I said, that none of this would have happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does it (ph) still smell?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m going to hang up and just walk away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here at the Orlando courthouse in the case of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. You see her there, Caylee Anthony.
Out to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. And of course, we also heard about the hair, allegedly Caylee`s hair, in tot mom`s car trunk, with a death band around it. And Jose Baez tried to suggest, You don`t know whether that was Cindy, grandmother Cindy, tot mom`s hair, Caylee`s hair, or Cindy`s mother`s hair, Caylee`s great-grandmother`s hair.
But Karen Lowe, the FBI analyst, didn`t she respond that microscopically, it could not have been theirs? I mean, haven`t all of those women had their hair tinted or dyed or frosted or highlighted? Let`s see a shot of tot mom with her hair frosted. I mean, you can look under a microscope and isolate or eliminate -- there she is with blond hair, for Pete`s sake -- all of the other women because they`ve had their hair treated, Ellie.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. In a lot of the older pictures of Casey Anthony, you see her with that short blond hair. She didn`t have that naturally dark hair, like we see her with now. And what Karen Korsberg Lowe testified to is that this hair was similar to the hair from Caylee`s hairbrush, but that it was dissimilar from Casey Anthony`s hair.
GRACE: Now, also, we know that there was not a root on the hair, so they could not get nuclear DNA. They did get mitochondrial DNA, which isolates it down -- limits it down to one of the women in that family. We know it was Caylee`s, 2-year-old Caylee`s, tot mom`s, Casey Anthony, her mother, Cindy, or her grandmother, Cindy`s mother. But there was a death band on it, and none of the other women are dead, Ellie! It had to be Caylee`s hair from her head post-mortem in that trunk.
JOSTAD: Well, right, Nancy. And that`s the point -- the defense was trying to gain a little ground there by suggesting you can`t say for sure it`s Caylee. By as you explained, by the process of elimination, she`s the only maternal family member -- female family member that`s dead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You stated that chloroform can be a byproduct of decomposition, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s no evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chloroform was shockingly high, unusually high.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey has never done any harm to her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The skull dropped out with hair around it and duct tape across the mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the other hairs that you examined have the postmortem root band?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for, what 12 days in the back of the car that stunk so bad? She is not a murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you come to any opinion about the source of the odor that you analyzed from the carpet?
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m a nurse. I thought human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I consider it consistent with human decomposition.
CINDY ANTHONY: My husband is a deputy sheriff years ago, and the first thing he thought was human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can find no other plausible explanation.
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter may have had some mistruths out there or half-truths, but she`s not a murderer.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: That my little kid is OK. It still feels like she`s close to home.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. We are camped here outside the Orange County, Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
Caylee`s body found just 15 houses from the Anthony home thrown into a makeshift pet cemetery in a densely wooded area, left there to rot.
Today bombshell in the courtroom and torpedo to the defense as the state brings on a highly renounced scientist to describe the stench of a dead body in tot mom`s trunk and science to back it up with air samples.
Not only that, he describes fatty acid from human decomposition staining and soaking into the carpet in tot mom`s trunk. The defense compares that fatty acid, suggests it could have been pounds and pounds of raw hamburger meat or raw chicken left in tot mom`s trunk.
We are taking your calls, but Jean Casarez, was there any evidence that there was raw hamburger meat or raw chicken in the trunk?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": We heard no in testimony today, but those paper towels were found in the trash bag, and so then I think that begins the defense argument that it was just part of trash, food trash.
GRACE: What do you mean paper towels?
CASAREZ: Paper towels had the fatty acids that were the beginning of decomposition of human remains, those paper towels were inside a trash bag filled with remnants of food trash.
GRACE: You`re seeing what was taken out of the trunk.
To Diane Dimond, explain the residue on the paper towels in tot mom`s trash in her trunk.
DIANE DIMOND, SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT, NEWSWEEK, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, they took that bag, of course, out of the tow yard`s trash can, and when they took it into the lab and started to look at it, they found fatty acids on it.
They also found, Nancy, traces of THC, marijuana. So when I think back, let`s see, didn`t Tony Lazzaro and some of his roommates say that they smoked marijuana in that apartment? She was always cooking and cleaning there. So I`m assuming that that was the genesis of the paper towels.
But you know the whole thing that -- with Jose Baez talking about well, maybe it was hamburger, maybe it was chicken, you know, to my mind -- and I was talking to Dr. Larry Kobilinsky in the green room a minute ago -- he should have just stuck to this fact. Dr. Vass, has ever done the kind of tests that you have done? No. Oh, they`re brand new? Yes.
So they haven`t been validated by any other scientist in your field? That`s right. And left it at that. Instead he asked question after question that just sort of went nowhere, objected and objected during the state`s direct examination.
And again, I`m going to repeat myself. I don`t think he did himself any good today. As Natisha says, the jury was listening really closely to this scientist.
GRACE: Well, also, Diane, I find it somehow offensive. I`m going to have to analyze by having that reaction that he compared the decomposing fatty acids from Caylee`s body to raw hamburger meat or raw chicken. It`s just something about that comparison, saying that --
DIMOND: Very cavalier.
GRACE: It`s just offensive to me personally.
DIMOND: Yes.
GRACE: Yes, it is. Well, you`re right. And as a matter of fact, Diane, isn`t it true this is the first time not only in Florida but anywhere that air samples have been brought in in a criminal murder trial?
DIMOND: It is. And you know they went through a Frye hearing. The judge agreed to allow it. You know, you think back to the first time they ever allowed DNA. This is pioneering science, and Dr. Vass is the pioneer who`s doing it. The fact of the matter is, it has never been validated by anyone else, but everything else has.
The fatty acids on the paper towels, the stains on the rug, the chloroform levels. We`ve been testing chloroform levels for decades. So why -- again, why Baez didn`t pinpoint in on the weak spot of Vass, that it`s never been validated, the air testing only, I don`t know. I`m at a loss.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney, Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, former lawyer for Jesse Grund, tot mom`s ex-fiance.
I expect a lot to be made in closing arguments by the defense, Darryl Cohen, that the scientist did not bring the actual photos of Caylee`s hair with the death band around it.
But Darryl, I recall when I was a brand new prosecutor the first time I had brought in DNA. And I insisted the crime lab scientist bring the actual testing and put it in front of jury, and when you -- I looked at it and went, OK, what a colossal mistake this was on my part because it looked like undeveloped film.
You have to have a trained eye to see what they see. And that`s why the state is not bringing in the actual hair before the jury.
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, Nancy. It seems to me that the jury is interested in the persona of the person who is testifying. They`re interested in the credentials, and they`re interested in what took place and how the evidence was analyzed. And to bring it in would be unusual and it really would not do them any good.
GRACE: What about it, Penny?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the main thing that concerns me with this Dr. Vass and all the scientific expert is that he is now, to my mind, becoming an advocate here because it is unusual. He`s the first one to introduce it, so he`s motivated for it to go with the state so it becomes good science. And I think that`s a major problem in this case for the state.
GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," joining us out of Washington, D.C.
Pat, you have analyzed so many criminal cases and murder cases. Can you explain why tot mom can sit there and listen to this -- and I`m not saying she`s guilty or innocent. But can sit here and listen to her -- to the testimony regarding her child`s body -- allegedly decomposing in a trunk.
I think they`d have to put me on a stretcher and take me out.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, that`s because you`re a loving mom. And we`re not talking about you but we`re talking about Casey Anthony who has no love at all for her child because she`s a psychopath.
So the only thing that really gets to her is something about her. So that`s why she`s kind of stone-faced during the stuff about her child, but when somebody is picking on her or, you know, pointing out things about her, then she gets really annoyed and kind of sobby sometimes.
GRACE: And what does that tell you, Pat, about her profile?
BROWN: As I say, she`s a straight-up psychopath, and that`s what Jose Baez is up against. He`s in real bad shape there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, you testified under direct examination that the smell of human decomposition is unique?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Essentially jumped back a foot or two. The odor was extremely overwhelming.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: You have this missing child.
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl.
BAEZ: And you have this hair that you say has banding at the root.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caucasian, had hair, that had characteristics of apparent signs of decomposition.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You mentioned that something called a bloat stage.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what? That happened to me.
CINDY ANTHONY: Bloating was huge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Microorganisms in the intestinal tract. Are the byproduct of bacterial metabolism is the generation of gas.
CASEY ANTHONY: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lovely breakfast conversation.
CINDY ANTHONY: The smell in the car was like something I had never -- it was pretty strong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was atrocious. It was very potent. It was eye-opening.
BAEZ: It`s not sent to nuclear DNA to confirm that it was Caylee`s, correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Please stop it.
BAEZ: So best that we have at this point.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my god. Calling you guys, waste, huge waste.
BAEZ: Is that the hair belonged to Caylee, Casey, Cindy or even Cindy`s mother. Any other maternal relative.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls here outside the Orange County, Orlando courthouse.
Out to Kelly in Michigan.
Hi, Kelly, what`s your question?
KELLY, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
KELLY: My question is about Casey, and they keep saying that the defense -- their defense is that she got sexually molested and that`s why she went to school perfectly fine. But we`ve seen in the jailhouse videos, we`ve seen her in the courtroom get angry or cry.
How can she have these emotions now, but not for the child and they can say that that`s because of the sexual abuse?
GRACE: You know that`s a great question to throw to our psychiatrist.
Joining us tonight, Dr. Doug Bremner, professor of psychiatry and radiology, author of "Before You Take That Pill."
Dr. Bremner, thank you for being with us. Can you respond to her question?
DR. DOUG BREMNER, PROFESSOR, PSYCHIATRY AND RADIOLOGY, AUTHOR, "BEFORE YOU TAKE THAT PILL": Yes, Nancy. I don`t think there is any characteristic pattern of behavior you`d expect from someone who is sexually abused.
I actually looked at her behavior in the courtroom and said something has happened to this woman, and I was not at all surprised when the allegations of childhood sexual abuse came out.
And her bizarre behavior, lying, patterns of deception, what do you do in a family where there`s incest that`s kept a secret? You grow up learning how to lie, and that`s just what we expect from these kinds of people.
GRACE: Dr. Bremner, are you suggesting that you believe she has been sexually molested?
BREMNER: That`s my opinion, Nancy. I don`t have any proof of it, and no one else does either.
GRACE: Because she said so?
BREMNER: Because of her behavior, because of the bizarre letters that were written by her father to her and the -- what I think is inappropriate language that he uses in talking about her and her physical appearance. That`s not the way a father should talk to his daughter.
GRACE: What inappropriate language?
BREMNER: He made comments to her about her weight, about her physical appearance when she`s in jail accused of murdering her daughter. I`ve read the letters -- they`re there out there online. You can read them. They`re available.
GRACE: The letter is written by tot mom?
BREMNER: No, written by her father to her in jail. They`re not proof of sexual abuse.
GRACE: Well, Dr. Bremner -- no, they`re not. Dr. Bremner, did you think that possibly that was in response to her writing or saying to him in a jailhouse visit everything she was eating and that she`s gaining weight? Were you familiar with that?
BREMNER: Well, Nancy, I`m a father of a young woman. I don`t write letters like that to my daughter. So I`m not saying that that`s proof of abuse, but I`m saying it`s not inconsistent with that type of pattern.
GRACE: Well, in my mind, since tot mom made an issue of it, I don`t find that unusual at all that he wrote back in that letter and I really do not believe for one second that her father and her brother molested her.
Let`s just see if she takes the stand and describes that. We`ll see.
We are taking your calls. But first, I want to go back it to the lawyers. Penny Douglas Furr, Darryl Cohen.
Penny, you brought about Arpad Vass, the lead scientist in the air samples being cross-examined on him being the -- well, you brought up him being the pioneer in this field. But he was actually cross-examined by Baez claiming that he had a financial stake, an invention that he come up with to help detect dead bodies that have been hidden.
Well, Baez tried the same thing on Karen Lowe, the FBI analyst, about the hair. He said she had a stake at her testimony because she works for the FBI.
Isn`t that going to wear thin if he makes the same cross-exam on every witness?
DOUGLAS FURR: Well, Nancy, I don`t buy it with the FBI. I don`t see how she would have benefit. But I would have gone with the expert if indeed he does have a patent on the machine and it`s successful in this case, he could benefit financially.
So I think the scientist maybe would be more so. I think he hurts it by going after the FBI agent because what would she had?
GRACE: What about it, Darryl?
COHEN: Well, I think -- I agree with you, Nancy. It wears completely thin. You hit it one time, you leave it, you go, and then go on. Instead it`s over and over and over again. And the jury stops hearing him. It becomes white noise.
GRACE: Kelly in Illinois. Hi, Kelly. What`s your question, dear?
KELLY, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: I have -- first, I just love you. I think you`re the best. And second, I`m -- can they possibly get fingerprints from the tape or the heart-shaped sticker at all? And the --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, the heart-shaped sticker -- what`s your second question, dear?
KELLY: Can she appeal it to prolong her death sentence?
GRACE: Can she appeal it?
KELLY: Yes, once she`s convicted, can she appeal it?
GRACE: Let me tell you this, Kelly in Illinois. If there`s conviction, there`s going to be about 20 years` worth of appeals. So the answer to that is yes. But let`s burn that bridge when we get there.
First, to the prints on the tape and the heart-shaped sticker. The heart-shaped sticker was completely used up. The residue from it in the testing of it. The residue portion was completely used up.
Now let`s talk about prints.
To Jean Casarez, what do we know about prints on the tape or the heart-shaped sticker itself?
CASAREZ: No prints found, but remember, that area was underwater for a long time. The elements got to it. Not surprising there are no fingerprints.
GRACE: Another thing about fingerprints. Back to you, Diane Dimond. We learned over the weekend that the gas can had no fingerprints on it, and it was suggested to the expert that the gas can had been wiped clean. But the expert said no, it hadn`t been wiped clean. I just couldn`t make out fingerprints.
DIMOND: That was really odd to me. Because I remember seeing a picture of that big cylindrical gas can. And if it`s full, I would have a tough time -- I would have to hold it by the bottom as I put gasoline into the car. So I was surprised that there were no fingerprints there and there were none on the handle of it. It said to me that it had to have been wiped down, but he said no. He`s the expert.
GRACE: Well, we can see where that`s going. On cross-exam they`re going to argue that George Anthony, the retired -- the former cop, knew to wipe the gas can clean.
Very quickly, I want to tell you about a search for missing Indiana co-ed. Twenty-year-old Lauren Spierer was last seen June 3, leaving a restaurant near campus, heading to her apartment in Bloomington. She never made it. Keys found one block away.
Take a look, everybody, please. She`s only 4`11", 90 pounds, blonde hair, blue eyes. If you have information, please call Bloomington Police, 812-339-4477.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Been hanging out with friends and partying at various locations pretty much that evening. And she had gone to this friend`s house and was there for probably two hours.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: And on another note, joining us tonight, Kristin Bibik, reporter with 660 News Calgary. She`s in court all day long but last week I told you about running into Jose Baez coming out of the court house, smiling and posing for all of his female fans, snapping photos for a long line of young ladies.
And as a matter of fact, Kristin, you were -- they`re the shot right there, and it`s you, Kristin. How did that happen?
KRISTIN BIBIK, REPORTER, 660 NEWS CALGARY, IN COURT TODAY, POSING FOR PHOTO WITH JOSE BAEZ: You know what, Nancy, that`s right, it is me. Initially we were trying to be subtle. I feel the way I think a lot of people do that Jose Baez is in this for the publicity, to feel important, to get attention.
And so we tried at first to be subtle. My sister said, OK, I`m going to go and take a picture, I`m going to jump ahead, and I kind of stood a couple of feet away but pointed because I work for a 24-hour on these radio stations. Pictures are very important for the Web site. We have to post them on 660News.com.
And all of a sudden Jose Baez, he catches wind that we`re trying to get a picture, he jumps in, Nancy. He puts his arms around us, hey, hey, do you want a picture? And I was totally caught off-guard because here, you think that you conduct yourself in a professional manner, there`s so many cameras all around, and he was just relishing in the spotlight.
Enjoy relishing, Jose, because tomorrow will be catch-up.
GRACE: Well, there you have it. I just happened to be outside the courthouse to witness the whole thing with Baez, king of the courthouse, a female fan in each arm. Well, you know what? Like she said, we`ll see how it works out tomorrow.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Benjamin Laymon, 22, Mount Vernon, Ohio, killed Iraq. On a second tour awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Global War on Terrorism, Service Medal.
Loved football, basketball, caring for children, remembered for a sense of humor. Leaves behind parents Gail and James, brothers Andrew, Trevor and Kurt.
Benjamin Laymon, American hero.
Thanks for our guests, but especially to you for being with us tonight.
And tonight we remember Kentucky mother Melissa Patrick, shot to death, November 2008 after being kidnapped by an escaped felon. This weekend would have been her 41st birthday.
Robin Mapel, convicted for murder, sentenced to life. Justice served.
We have not forgotten Melissa Patrick. Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be here at the Orlando courthouse where finally unfolding, justice for Caylee.
Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.
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