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Nancy Grace
Computer Forensics in the Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 08, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it and leaves it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.
Bombshell tonight. After days of behavioral evidence detailing tot mom`s hard party lifestyle in the weeks, days, even hours after Caylee disappears, the evidence takes a sharp turn to forensics, cold, hard proof of murder. And today in court, no different. Text messages, videos, digital media pulled from cell phones, cameras, laptops take center stage. Computer forensics detail repeated on-line searches about death and murder on tot mom`s computer -- how to make chloroform, neck breaking, household items used as weapons, shovel, death, alcohol, acetone, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, internal bleeding. The list goes on.
And timing is everything. The computer search is made just weeks before Caylee disappears. Defense -- somebody else must have done those searches, not tot mom. But wait. Nobody was home but tot mom the day of the most damning search. After CSI says 2-year-old Caylee`s sandbox, back yard, even her little playhouse were tot mom`s first choice as burial ground for little Caylee`s dead body, today we learn yet another cadaver dog independently hits the same spot in the Anthony back yard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get off your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and look for my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search results (INAUDIBLE) head underscore injury, meningeal artery, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, internal bleeding, inhalation (INAUDIBLE) self-defense, hand to hand combat, C-h-l-o-r-o-f-o- r-m, chloroform, neck breaking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never seen chloroform at that level in 20 years of (INAUDIBLE) samples.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me what you can find about a Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez- Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you see any references anywhere on the computer to Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez prior to the morning of July 16th of 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I did not.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: She`s already tried and convicted.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I wouldn`t wish this on anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After days of behavioral evidence detailing tot mom`s hard party lifestyle in even the hours after 2-year-old Caylee disappears, evidence takes a sharp turn toward forensics. Today, no different. Computer forensics, detail repeat searches about death and murder on tot mom`s computer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The user at the time had their Google search engine up, typed in "how to make chloroform."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, "how to make chloroform" spelled correctly, the words "neck breaking" with a space in between.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We walked back to the back yard with Bones on lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re doing a thorough investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He immediately did a quick search of the yard. He went around where there was a swimming pool.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Whatever you guys want to take from my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then he went back towards the screened-in porch.
GEORGE ANTHONY: If you want to take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His nose was down. I saw that there was an area of interest that he kept going back to and sniffing pretty hard.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You do what you need to do to bring my granddaughter back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s in that circle, in that area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In that area (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Key word search for "chloroform" came up with key word search hits in unallocated or deleted space on the hard drive.
CASEY ANTHONY: I still feel like she`s close to home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are here outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s body found disposed of, thrown into a makeshift pet cemetery just 15 houses from the Anthonys` home.
We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Jean Casarez. Jean, meningeal artery, ruptured spleen, neck breaking, how to make chloroform -- how with a straight face did defense attorney Jose Baez ask, Well, couldn`t these have been innocent searches?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, it doesn`t look like the defense is going to try to say somebody else did the searches. We didn`t hear that in the cross-examination. But they said that those searches went towards self-defense, and those searches were maybe funny, a joke, or researching medical terms. And the fact the prosecution said that 84 times "chloroform" was searched for on a Web site, defense says, No, no, no, the Web site was searched 84 times, but chloroform only once.
GRACE: What were the searches?
CASAREZ: Well, first of all, the time of the searches...
GRACE: Jean, what were the searches?
CASAREZ: On March 17th and March 21st, chloroform, how to make chloroform, neck breaking, death, insolubles.com, household weapons. Those were some of the many, many searches. But the defense contends they were just seconds that somebody looked at these searches, and then moved on to the next subject.
GRACE: OK. There was a search for "shovel." And Jean, didn`t Baez say, Well, "Shovel" was a movie? I hardly think that tot mom was looking up the 2006 winner of the Tribeca Film Festival for best narrative short, OK? So what`s the best they did on cross-exam, other than to try to make these searches look innocent?
CASAREZ: Nancy, you know, normally in cross-exam, they try to take their client out of the picture, that their client didn`t do it. I didn`t hear that on the cross-exam today. I heard that it was for a different purpose, it was for self-defense maybe.
GRACE: OK, to Natisha Lance, also in court today. Everyone, we are here outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, in the alleged murder of her little girl, Caylee.
So Natisha, not one time did we hear that maybe somebody else did those searches? Was it questioned as to who was home or who had access or pass codes to the computers?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, that didn`t come up when Jose Baez went and did his cross-examination, Nancy. But one thing that did come up is that he said, You need to look at more than just the links here. You need to look at what`s actually on these web pages. He said one of the links for "chloroform habit" had something to do with the 1800s and somebody who had a chloroform habit back in the 1800s. So he did say that the links are a bit misleading and that they should have shown...
GRACE: Natisha...
LANCE: ... the actual Web page...
GRACE: Natisha! Natisha!
LANCE: ... as opposed to the link.
GRACE: Get real! Don`t just rattle off -- regurgitating, vomiting up what you heard! Think about it! Natisha, tot mom was not in school. Tot mom chose to quit high school, all right? It`s not like she`s researching a thesis on the 1800s use of chloroform. So what else did Baez -- what dent did he make in cross-exam?
LANCE: That is it, Nancy. He didn`t say it was somebody else who was doing the searches. All he said is that it seemed as if somebody was searching over these pages, they were there for a few seconds, at the most two minutes. And that doesn`t seem as if it was somebody who was actually researching or actively researching chloroform or chloro2 (ph) or chloroform habit. It was just somebody...
GRACE: Really?
LANCE: ... searching over the Internet.
GRACE: OK, Ellie Jostad, for those of our viewers that are not familiar with this phrase, what does it mean to "bookmark" a site that you go to on line?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, sure. It`s really easy, Nancy. If you`re looking at a Web page, most computers have a little tab you can click on, bookmark that page. It`s saved. So then later, if I want to go back to, say, FaceBook.com or whatever I bookmarked, all I need to do is click that. I don`t have to type in the address again.
GRACE: And Ellie Jostad, isn`t it true that many of these sites that Natisha is telling us about, that Baez claims, Well, they were only there for two or three minutes, it wasn`t a serious search -- were they bookmarked for ease to go back to some of these sites when there was a more convenient time?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. That is another thing that this forensic scientific computer analyst said, that it looked as though some of these hits that he was seeing in the history appeared to have been saved -- in other words, bookmarked.
GRACE: Joining us tonight is a very special guest also taking your calls, Mark Lippman. He is the attorney for George, Cindy and Lee Anthony. He`s representing all the other members of the Anthony family.
Mark, thank you for being...
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE, CINDY, LEE ANTHONY: Thanks for having me.
GRACE: ... with us tonight. You know that it`s only a matter of time before Jose Baez tries to heap all of these deadly computer searches on one of your clients, OK, or else they`re going to claim somebody snuck into house and stole nothing but logged onto the computer. Are they bracing for this? Because they`re getting blamed for everything else.
LIPPMAN: Yes. Well, they`ve been braced for this stuff. Without going into attorney-client privilege information, again, any of those allegations that they were doing any of these searches, you know, my clients certainly refute. None of them did searches for chloroform or neck breaking or anything along those lines.
They`ve been deposed about that. They`ve been on the stand about that. They`ve given statements about that. So for Jose to start going down that road now is obviously going to bring up the state saying, Didn`t you discuss this before? And the answer`s always going to be no, as far as my clients are concerned. They didn`t have anything to do with this.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. With us, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle Anne Bremner, defense attorney Peter Elikann out of Boston. Could you just explain to me -- I`ll start with you, Anne Bremner. How can -- let me just go with making chloroform. How can that be an innocent computer search?
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, remember that her boyfriend had that something about chloroform and women, and maybe she was curious. I mean, people search for all kinds of things. And the fact of the matter is, we don`t have conclusive evidence of the cause of death or that chloroform was, indeed, involved. So those are things you can look at.
And in fact, with respect to -- well, I`ll wait on the other thing on access by other people. But I think that`s an issue that can be addressed on cross-examination. And it`s important.
GRACE: OK, you know what? I appreciate what you said, but it just doesn`t even make sense to me, what you just said. Give it a try, Peter Elikann. How can -- for instance, in a case like this, trying (ph) to make -- how to make homemade chloroform -- how can that be an innocent search?
PETER ELIKANN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You see, Nancy, that`s why I would going in a different direction than Jose Baez has already gone, and that is that I`d be saying that other people could have been on that computer. It would raise reasonable doubt. How do you know other people weren`t on it, too? Why just her?
Additionally, we don`t really know what the cause of death is, and we`ll never know that chloroform was the cause of death.
GRACE: But we know that chloroform...
ELIKANN: So there`s reasonable doubt all over the place.
GRACE: ... was at the crime scene and in the trunk.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, tell me your name, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Marie Anthony.
CINDY ANTHONY: If something tragic happens, we don`t know how we`re going to handle it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was an area of interest that he kept going back to.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You can take the shingles off the roof, I don`t care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You indicate where you got the trained (ph) (INAUDIBLE) alert.
CINDY ANTHONY: They can take our whole house down. They can level it. They can dig a big hole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe a dead body in the back yard is a disputed issue in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think you quite understand what`s happening here.
CINDY ANTHONY: I will walk every inch of this earth!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you asked to perform a search for chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pour it on, like, a rag and put it over the baby`s face, will knock her out.
CINDY ANTHONY: And I will look in every nook and cranny!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, thank goodness I don`t find all these children...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection, Judge.
CINDY ANTHONY: This little child right here, she is the victim in all of this. This little one is not protected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. Here you see her in court seated with her lead defense attorney, Jose Baez. She`s got a fleet of lawyers with her. And today, damning evidence, forensic evidence, where text messages, computer searches, hard forensic evidence takes center stage.
We are taking your calls. Out to Natisha Lance, our producer in court today. Natisha, explain to me about the text message search.
LANCE: Well, Nancy, what the expert said is that she went into the phone and she was given the instructions to look for any reference of Zenaida Gonzalez. Now, she didn`t find any references to Zenaida Gonzalez, but what she did find -- going back to the computer searches, actually, is that there were searches on the computer for Zenaida Gonzalez on July 16th.
Now, this is long after Casey Anthony is saying Zenaida Gonzalez had been watching Caylee, but this is on the date that Casey Anthony is arrested. So it is the theory that perhaps Cindy Anthony was the one who was doing those searches.
GRACE: And to Jean Casarez, also in court all day today. Jean, to suggest that these searches were innocent -- catch this, Jean. There were four-and-a-half years` worth of computer searches still on the computer search history, four-and-a-half years. Nobody had ever deleted anything.
But these searches about neck breaking, how to make chloroform, ruptured spleen -- those had been deleted. Out of four-and-a-half years, Jean, that`s all that`s been covered up?
CASAREZ: And the experts were amazed that what was kept had been kept on the hard drive, that it hadn`t been used up, that they could retrieve it. And Nancy, if it was just chloroform for a minute -- because Ricardo Morales had posted "win her over with chloroform" -- if it had just been a chloroform search, you could Wow, maybe it`s trying to get high on chloroform, if people even do that. But coupled with everything else, that`s the strength (ph) that came out today for the prosecution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: So beyond frustrated with all of this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did have somebody call us and tell us (INAUDIBLE) a shovel was borrowed (INAUDIBLE) in close proximity to the child being missing.
CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s missing!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They may just not have dug enough to find what (INAUDIBLE)
CINDY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) Caylee.
911 OPERATOR: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) saw that there was an area of interest.
CASEY ANTHONY: She was the last person to have her. That was the last time I saw Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That he kept going back to and kept sniffing pretty hard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is that, the baby-sitter?
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been my nanny for about a year-and-a-half, almost two years.
I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Basically, in that area right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live here, camped outside the Orlando courthouse at the end of the courthouse day, tot mom on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
Out to the lines. Yvonne in Oregon. Hi, Yvonne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I watch your show religiously, and I have a quick question. OK...
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jean Casarez, who sits in the courtroom, may be able to answer this because she does comment on reaction of the jury to certain information that`s being shown. I`m reading and being told that juror number four, who is a woman, was reacting rather indifferent when -- in the beginning, when they were showing Caylee`s body with the duct tape and the skull, that she was rolling her eyes and acted very annoyed at these photos. And they were surprised that she was picked as one of the jurors because she was emphatically stating that she was very nonjudgmental, and they`re afraid that she may cause a hung jury or throw this whole guilty verdict thing off course.
Can someone that sits in the courtroom comment on the behavior of juror number four for me?
GRACE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: To you Jean Casarez, what about juror number four?
CASAREZ: Nancy, I`m very concerned about that. I watch it. And I cannot see her eyes because -- I don`t think anybody can really see her eyes. She`s too far away. But she didn`t want to be on the jury initially, and she said she can`t judge. And this whole case is about judging. I see her gaze sometimes at Casey. I`ve seen her take some notes that I think are beneficial for the defense when the notes are taken. So yes, do I have some concerns exactly what our caller is saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) reference to cars?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car and they died in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you immediately recognize the odor that was emanating from piece (ph) of property (ph) in the can?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Human decomposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Overwhelming evidence showing tot mom, Casey Anthony, intentionally killed her daughter Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony`s computer records March 21st she researched how to make chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Household weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hand to hand combat.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shovel.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neck breaking.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hair came back now. It shows signs of decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caucasian had hair that had characteristics of apparent decomposition.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And have these air samples coming back.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Rotten, whatever it was. Something was decomposing in there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Showing signs of decomposition in the trunk.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just want to go home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Then you`ve got the cadaver dogs alerting to the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Garris jumped up into the trunk.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m so hurt by everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gives me a final trained alert, he goes into a down position.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Alerting to the backyard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where the trained final alert occurred.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t point you in that direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within that circle and that area.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All of that added together adds up to no good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that a Google search?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neck breaking with a space in between.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Add all of this to evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unusually high.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are here outside of the Orange County, Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony, on trial for the murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee.
Caylee`s body found, thrown away like trash. Just 15 houses down away from the Anthony home in a makeshift pet cemetery, a densely wooded area. There her body sat until it was completely skeletonized with weed and grass growing up between the bones.
I want to go out now on this topic of the cell phone, computers, digicams, digital cameras being seized and searched.
Ellie Jostad, we know that one detective was given the task of finding any trace of Zenaida Gonzalez in tot mom`s cell phone. The one when she first claim the nanny, she claimed, kidnapped Caylee.
Did they find anything about a Zenaida Gonzalez any where other than when Cindy Anthony was likely trying to find her towards mid-July?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: No, Nancy. And she testified that she was given the phone on July 16th, the day that Casey was -- was arrested. She`s given the phone, she`s given the laptop, she`s given the home computer, supposed to go through them, see if she could find any traces of Zenaida Gonzalez.
The only thing she could find, nothing on the cell phone, she could only find those searches likely done by Cindy that day.
GRACE: And Ellie, whose digital camera was seized?
JOSTAD: There were two cameras, Nancy. There was one that I believe was an Anthony -- camera actually there were three. Two from home, one from Ricardo Morales.
GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner out of Burlington County, joining us out of Philly.
Dr. Manion, thanks for being with us. Explain to the viewers what is the meningeal artery.
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, meningeal arteries are blood vessels inside the skull that supply the meninges, the coverings over the -- over the brain. Sometimes when you fall and hit your head you can damage these arteries and end up with an epidural hematoma.
I`m not -- I don`t know of anybody that would search that to try to figure out as a cause of death. I`m not sure why unless they were a forensic pathologist or something. I don`t think a lay person unless they saw it on TV.
GRACE: Yes, let`s talk about that. Let`s take a look at these searches. You`re right, Dr. Manion.
Unleash the lawyers. Anne Bremner, Seattle, Peter Elikann, Boston.
Back to you, Anne Bremner. Meningeal artery. Last I checked she wasn`t planning on attending med school. So how do you get meningeal artery, ruptured spleen, hand-to-hand combat.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know it`s like --
GRACE: Homemade chloroform, making weapons out of household products, neck breaking. Explain to me again how you say this is -- these are innocent computer searches?
BREMNER: Well, what I had said before, Nancy, is you can look at these -- let`s look at the whole group right now, OK?
Hand-to-hand combat and self-defense. How would those weigh into in any way planning to killing a 2-year-old? Self-defense, hand-to-hand combat, that -- I don`t think so. So the other one are they going to --
GRACE: Well, I can think of a way.
BREMNER: Probably --
GRACE: Well, hold on.
BREMNER: OK. You can --
GRACE: You asked a question, now here`s an answer.
BREMNER: You can. OK.
GRACE: We know that one of her stories was that she -- her babysitter stole the baby, all right? Did she -- was part of her lie going to be that she tried to fight back? That she tried to defend herself? That she let go of Caylee?
I mean that could easily fit into that scenario.
BREMNER: You know, Nancy, I object. Speculation on your part completely.
GRACE: About what?
BREMNER: I have an objection on speculation. I mean --
GRACE: Just asking a question, Anne.
BREMNER: That`s complete speculation. What? I mean it`s complete speculation.
GRACE: That`s what you asked me.
BREMNER: What the doctor just said -- well, I`m just saying that`s complete speculation.
GRACE: You just asked me, how could this fit into a plan of murder.
BREMNER: OK. And your answer was based on complete speculation. It`s not part of the case. So you asked me, let`s look at these terms. Hand-to-hand combat, self-defense, and then you look at everything else. Is it an explanation for all of it? Probably not. Did other people have access? They could. We haven`t heard that they absolutely didn`t.
And then the doctor just said --
GRACE: Well --
BREMNER: -- why would you look up that term, that`s something so medical and technical, as Casey Anthony who didn`t even finish school who`s barely in her 20s, is she going to look that up with the intent to kill her child? I don`t know.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She`s almost 26.
BREMNER: But not at the time. She`s 23. She`s barely into her 20s. I called her barely into her 20s. So there it is.
GRACE: OK, you know what? Anne, I appreciate all that.
BREMNER: That evidence Baez can explain.
GRACE: But it`s way, way, way, way off the question of how can this be innocent searches.
BREMNER: I don`t think it is.
GRACE: Peter Elikann --
BREMNER: I don`t think it is.
GRACE: Regarding someone else doing the searches, it was, in fact, brought up in a tangential way, tangential way, repeatedly Jose Baez cross- examined the witnesses about, if you don`t need a password -- you know like with a lot of people`s computers, before you can even type the words Yahoo! or Google or AOL, you`ve got to put in a pass code to even get the screen up to go on the Internet. It`s just a black screen until you type in a password.
Baez asked every one of them, did you need a password to get on this account? So basically could get on this account. So he`s clearly laying the foundation for someone else may have done these searches.
PETER ELIKANN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "SUPERPREDATORS": That`s right, Nancy. That`s all the jury needs is reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt. Anybody else could have been using this.
This is not a strong forensic case. It`s not a slam dunk case for the prosecution. I think there`s all kinds of questions. They really haven`t nailed this down at all.
GRACE: Well, let`s go to Ben Levitan, telecommunications expert, joining us tonight out of Raleigh, North Carolina.
Ben, thanks for being with us. I took note that out of 4 1/2 years of history, of computer searches, 4 1/2 years right there, only these searches have been deleted.
So, Ben Levitan, how do you get rid of something on your computer. What do you do, take it out to your driveway and beat it with a sledgehammer?
BEN LEVITAN, TELECOMMUNICATIONS EXPERT: Well, it`s fairly easy. I mean if you are spending your time browsing you can simply go up to an option on your browser that says tools and clear history. And that`s what we`re talking about.
Forensically your computer keeps a history of every page you`ve ever been to. Now the real problem here, and the reason for that is you want pages to load faster. Your computer kind of keeps the pages you go to frequently on your computer. So it doesn`t have to go fetch them.
But the real problem for Jose Baez here is if Casey is convicted, all this evidence is going to show premeditation and that`s going to be a real problem.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chemistry/chloroform. How many times was that site visited?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the history, 84 times.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Who has her? Do you have a name?
CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. The media is going to have a freaking field day with this.
ZENAIDA GONZALEZ, WOMAN WHOSE NAME CASEY ANTHONY USED AS CAYLEE`S NANNY: I`ve never met her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did locate references to Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her?
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I seen my daughter, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Computer to Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And today, Jean, we also learned that yet another cadaver dog hit on the same spots as the other cadaver dog.
Let`s see those shots, Liz, where they show where one dog hit around Caylee`s playhouse, her sandbox there in her backyard, and they bring in another independent dog. He hits in the same spot.
Explain, Jean Casarez.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, his name was Bones and he was brought in because there had been that initial hit and Bones hit, Nancy, in virtually the same area by that sandbox, by the playhouse, by the table with the umbrella and her little mail box.
Now on cross-examination, interesting, Jose Baez attacked this evidence, said well, within four to six feet of each other so maybe it wasn`t quite there, maybe closer to the swimming pool.
GRACE: With us now, Woodrow Tripp, former police commander.
Woody, thank you for being with us. Woody, you were in so many different roles. You were a beat cop. You were narcotics. You were homicide. You were undercover. You did it all.
What do you make of the cadaver dog hits? It`s not just one dog. It`s multiple dogs. They are not together, Woody. It`s not like they go home and they discuss what happened at work that day and the other one comes back and hits on the same spot.
They didn`t get together and talk about it. So you bring in an independent dog that hits on the same spot, Woody.
WOODY TRIPP, FORMER POLICE COMMANDER, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. And we can`t have our cake and eat it, too. As you know the courts have said the dog`s sense is so strong, you know, its smell is that it gives us probable cause to in fact obtain a search warrant.
So we can`t have our cake and eat it, too. Any other time the dogs are acceptable, they are in fact proven in court, now all of a sudden the defense says oh, no, you know, we`ve got these two dogs and they and somehow or another disagreed with each other. That`s --
GRACE: And here`s the other thing, Woody. Both dogs -- let me see that picture again.
Woody, I don`t know if you can see our monitor. But both dogs independently -- this is not at the same time -- hit in the same spot. Right there.
TRIPP: Absolutely, Nancy. Absolutely.
GRACE: The playhouse. There is a sandbox, a playhouse, the general backyard. And then, of course, they hit on -- a dog hits on tot mom`s car trunk. But interestingly -- let me see Woody -- Woodrow Tripp again.
Woody, the defense is claiming that the child died by accident in the pool but the dogs did not hit on the pool. So not only does this help the state it torpedoes the defense.
TRIPP: Well, and we know water does not carry that type of scent with it.
I mean, you know, Nancy, and I hate to do this. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it`s a duck.
GRACE: Yes.
TRIPP: We have two independent dogs that doing in sane and exhibiting the same thing. I don`t know what else, where else the defense can go other than death row.
GRACE: To Tracy Sargent, K9 trainer, service, rescue, recovery specialist. Is it possible that both dogs made mistakes and can dogs smell under water?
TRACY SARGENT, K9 HANDLER, SEARCH, RESCUE AND RECOVERY SPECIALIST: Well, the interesting thing part about dog handlers, when we`re asked to search an area we want to search what we call high probable areas first.
And what`s interesting about this case is that both dogs did alert to the trunk of a car. That`s not surprising because we had known in the past that people are transporting dead people in the trunk of a car.
What would be interesting from a dog handler when they search the front yard nothing there. When they got to the backyard handlers are not going to assume well, my dog is going to alert back here.
It`s a very unbiased approach from the handler. They`re going to be working the dogs, trusting the dogs, and when the dogs respond, the handler recognizes my dog is telling me there is human remain scent at this location.
Now referring to the water itself, if someone was killed, let`s say, in a swimming pool and then immediately taken out, scent is probably not going to be there in the swimming pool. So what we want to do is we want to look at both dogs.
GRACE: Right.
SARGENT: They hit consistently alert in the same place and that`s what`s really important here.
GRACE: Joining me now, Paula Bloom, clinical psychologist.
Dr. Bloom, thank you for being with us. We`ve gotten a lot of calls and questions and e-mails about the thinking that was this an accident that she tried to -- tot mom used chloroform as a babysitter and would keep Caylee in the trunk of the car.
PAULA BLOOM, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST, BLOGGER, PAULABLOOM.COM: Yes.
GRACE: Knocked out on chloroform. What kind of thinking is that? Of course in my mind that`s felony murder.
Chloroform is an aggravated assault and a death occurred, so that`s still a murder. But what mom would think hey, I can`t afford a babysitter because I sit on my bootie all day, and I`m -- chips, I don`t work. So why don`t I just make up some hooch, a little homemade chloroform and knock the baby out?
What kind of thinking is that?
BLOOM: OK, Nancy, I`m almost like scared to say this on your show, OK, because I don`t want like DFACS called on me.
GRACE: Since when?
BLOOM: But how many mothers have been so frustrated with their kid and used some sort of pacifier -- I`m not justifying chloroform, but use sugar, use the television, use something to get their kid out of the way. I`m not suggesting you kill your kid.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey.
BLOOM: What?
GRACE: Can you just try to focus on what I asked you?
BLOOM: Yes.
GRACE: I`m all about no sugar, no TV. I`m talking about chloroform, Paula. Get with the program.
BLOOM: I hear you. I hear you.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Steer back in the middle of the road. What kind of a mind would put the baby to sleep with chloroform as a babysitter?
BLOOM: Well, you know --listen. Listen. I hear you. I really hear you. But I mean, I have heard of mothers --
GRACE: I know you hear what I`m saying. Now can you answer my question?
BLOOM: Yes, I can answer your question. I -- listen, listen, I`m not a defense attorney but today I`m really feeling it with Anne, like I really am agreeing with her.
What happened is, let`s just say she doesn`t know anything about chloroform, let`s say she want to use it and she accidentally something happened and then she freaked out. I mean again I`m not endorsing the use of chloroform to get your kid to shut up by any means, but is it outside the realm for a mom to feel totally frustrated and use something?
I know of moms that use Benadryl to get their kids to sleep through a long flight. Is it outside the realm of a mom being so frustrated, especially a young one, that she would do something like this? That`s all I`m saying, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. To Woody Tripp, former police commander.
See, that kind of crazy talk, Woody, if somebody is on the jury -- yes, OK. Yes. Just hold that photo right there of Tripp.
You know, Tipp, you`re a cop. I was a prosecutor. You work your fingers to a bone for a crime victim. You try to prove your case. You try to seek justice. And then you get one nut job on the jury that compares chloroform to Benadryl, and you`re -- you know, you`re just basically out of luck.
TRIPP: Nancy, I don`t even know what to say to that. I mean common sense --
GRACE: I don`t either.
TRIPP: -- is not so common. I really don`t even know how to respond being a parent and a grandparent that in some way or another that chloroform would come up to use. I`m sorry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you smell or recognize to be the odor of human remains?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty strong.
CINDY ANTHONY: Smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: It was very potent. Horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Garris comes out of the trunk and gives me a final trained alert.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Take a look at this.
This is just one of the days with people coming -- trying to get into the courtroom to see tot mom and watch this trial.
Keep looking. Everybody, all those runners. There`s a guy in a neck brace. Here comes the rascal. And just a moment, you`re going to see a woman on her rascal.
Please keep rolling the video. In full, please.
And the lady in the rascal ends up edging out all the others getting up to the front of the line.
People are now queuing up outside the courthouse at around 1:00 a.m. trying to get in to court.
Out to Brent Schulman, trial spectator. He`s been in court four times.
Why are you showing up to court every day and what do you make of the proceedings?
BRETT SCHULMAN, CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL SPECTATOR, IN COURT 4 TIMES: Well, one of the reasons why I love going there is because, to me, this is the largest criminal case in central Florida history. And I want to be a part of what`s going on in my own backyard. And I`ve been following this since the inception of this case.
GRACE: And what do you make of it so far?
SCHULMAN: There`s a lot of speculation, but I believe that so far the state has really had a big hand in showing cause.
GRACE: There you see it. We are outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Mark Vecchione, 25, Tucson, Arizona, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Service Ribbon, Combat Action Badge. Loved the beach, fishing, baseball cards, NASCAR, and his army family. Leaves behind mom Cynthia, sister Lori, Matthew Sebastian.
Mark Vecchione, American hero.
Thanks to our guest and especially to you for being with us.
And tonight congratulations to Brad and Lindsay Hilliard on the birth of baby boy Griffin Bradford, 8 pounds, 7 ounces. Grandparents Kay, David, Jim and Sharon, thrilled. Grandma Kay-Kay and Granddad David now have five grandson.
Welcome to the world, Baby Griffin.
And happy birthday to one of our superstars, Dee Emerson. Loves LSU, convertibles, and never goes anywhere without a glass of iced tea.
Happy birthday, Moon pie.
Everyone, we will be here tomorrow night as we seek justice for Caylee. I`ll see you then tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
