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Casey Anthony Trial Update
Aired June 9, 2011 - 21:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: OK. Here we go. I keep saying it, and we`ve got to keep in mind, the Anthony trial is about a little girl whose life was tragically cut short. Today, the prosecution slammed that point home with gruesome pictures of Caylee`s decomposed remains. I`m going to look at Casey`s reaction and see what that tells us.
Also, I`m unraveling the latest contortion in the tale of Zanny the nanny. Was Casey transferring feelings of jealousy from her mom to this invented character? Let`s go figure this out.
And, again, those of you that are joining us from Nancy`s great coverage, you are welcome to this program, and I hope we elevate this conversation to yet another place, because I want to remind everyone there that I, like you, am trying to figure this thing out. I -- that`s what`s so interesting about this. We don`t really know for sure what`s going on in these people`s minds. But, in the case of Casey Anthony, it`s not looking so good.
But today she showed emotion in court. She actually broke down and wept, wiping tears from her eyes. Courtroom observers were warned to leave if they had problems seeing the graphic photos of Caylee`s remains. Now, Caylee`s grandparents, George and Cindy, left immediately. They did not stay to see the pictures. And, today Casey`s brother, Lee, was back on the stand. Watch this and we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: .crime scene photographs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They showed the picture -- the first picture of little Caylee`s skull. Some emotion from Casey.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: .this stage of decomposition and a human skull.
UNIDENIFIED MALE: Lee Anthony laid out just another one of his sister`s lies. Talking about how Zanny the nanny took little Caylee from her.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Zanny held Casey down, told her that she was taking Caylee from her to teach her a lesson.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s almost as though Casey was transferring her feelings and her jealousy about her mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother telling her she was an unfit mother and now she`s saying Zenaida Gonzalez said that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So we`re supposed to believe -- I mean, this is another one of Casey`s yarns that this nanny met her in a park and held her down and took a baby from her and, I mean, if my -- what I find interesting is if Lee believed that story, imagine the kind of chaos Casey and Caylee must have lived in already for Lee to believe that that seemed feasible.
But, we`ll be back with more of Lee`s testimony a little later in the program.
Right now, I`m still struggling with this. And I challenge all of you to stay with me on this. Is this woman, Casey, a monster or is she just a bad mother? Okay?
Was her reaction today genuine? Was that real emotion we saw in the courtroom? Or was she coached to show some emotion? If she`s a psychopath, like some people are claiming, well, it`s hard to feel sympathy for her. If we`re assuming she`s pure evil.
Did we witness remorse in court today, for someone who regrets what they`ve done, who has a more complex picture? Now, Casey says she got ill. I know what that means. I`m a doctor. And when somebody -- when they`re talking about her being ill, made me sick, what exactly do they mean? I saw her -- she looked angry to me. And then she seemed to develop sort of a panic attack and then she seemed, what we call sinkable, like she was going to faint.
And, I don`t know about you, but I, if -- as not Caylee`s dad or relative were looking at those pictures, I`d want to faint too. I mean wouldn`t you? So, where does this put us with Casey? I`m not sure yet. I don`t know.
So, I want you to hear, though, a powerful statement. Here are the detached words of a professional crime scene investigator describing what Casey Anthony was forced to hear. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is this item at the bottom of the photograph?
JENNIFER WELCH, CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATOR: That would be the front of the skull with duct tape. This would be the off-white canvass bag. This large, black item is the black plastic bag. And in this photograph, you can also see the skull.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. That`s Casey`s -- that`s Casey`s daughter the crime scene investigator was talking about. A 2-year-old child, yes, I get sick to my stomach, too. It`s pretty easy to get overwhelmed by this material. We also heard today from the medical examiner and the deputy who responded to the 911 call alerting authorities to the bones that were found.
Now, jurors saw grisly photos of the remains. You will not. And, I want to tell you why I want to do this. Now, at first I was thinking, you know, as a physician I want to walk you through this and -- to me these remains pictures you`re seeing alongside of me are no worse than the horrible accusations and the terrible dynamics we`re seeing in the courtroom already. And the descriptions of this.
But I`ll tell you what. I don`t want your kids flipping around when you`re not at home and coming across these pictures without the pixelation. I don`t want that. So, we`re going to leave them be as you see them here next to us. Use your imagination.
But, I am going to show you the reaction from the courtroom, the observers the people in the courtroom in just a minute. It`s pretty incredible.
With us tonight from Orlando is Ryan Smith, he`s the host of "in session" on our sister network TruTv. Ryan is an attorney. As well, I have Linda Kenny Baden; she is a former member of the Casey Anthony defense team.
Ryan, all right, Casey was crying when all this happens. What did you make of her reaction?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION ON TRUTV: It was interesting, Dr. Drew. And it`s always hard to tell with Casey why she`s doing something. I think, when they started showing the pictures, especially that first picture of the skull, we saw Casey break down. Then, she turned away from the screen.
And, it was almost like she couldn`t look back at them, because that`s how painful it was for her. She was crying. She was tearing up. And, this lasted for a long time as they went through picture after picture of skulls and tape around the skull. Even a mat of hair on Caylee`s skull.
It was just so disturbing, that I really do think it was a true reaction of someone breaking down, seeing this graphic testimony and evidence about her daughter.
PINSKY: All right. I just wonder, is it reality rushing in? Or is it the genuine feeling of grief? Now, when the courtroom gallery saw the photo that made Casey cry, their reaction was something.
Take a look at this. Now again, we can`t show you photos the way they saw them. It`s not only the judge`s order. It`s my order, to protect your kids. But, just seeing how these observers are looking at this, look at that, you can see.
Now, Linda, this is a compelling and tragic case. Have you seen the unaltered photos?
LINDA KENNY BADEN, FORMER MEMBER, CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Yes, I have. Yes, I have. And, you know, it`s different when I see them. I`m used to doing this work. And one of the things that we have to remember is that the jury, like the audience, is not. And as you know, Dr. Drew, from being a doctor, death is not a pretty state and when it involves a child it`s very emotional.
By the same token, I think that because Casey did have a reaction, I think that is helpful to her. Everyone`s been lambasting her as cold, calculating. Obviously that`s not my experience with her.
And if she didn`t have a reaction, people would say, oh, look, she didn`t have a reaction. So, I don`t think we can read, you know, so much into the reaction and parse it. It`s just that she had a reaction. She better have had a reaction. These are her daughter. And I don`t know if it`s the first time she was shown these pictures by her defense team or not.
PINSKY: Okay. You guys, I have just about a minute left. But, let me ask this, Linda or Ryan, you can react if you want to as well. You say she is not the cold, calculating person that people believe her to be. How did you experience her? And, what do you think she`s experiencing in the courtroom that we`re all pouring our own projections into?
BADEN: Well, you know, I can`t talk about my specific conversations or anything like that. Just to say that I liked her. She was a very young woman. And, I think what the courtroom is showing is that she`s troubled in many, many ways. And, quite frankly, that`s a win for the defense. Because, remember, this is a death penalty case. The state wants to execute her.
If -- according to her defense counsel and the team handling her, if they can show her as a troubled, hurt woman, then this should not have been a death penalty case to begin with. And that becomes a win. Remember, that`s what this is really all about.
PINSKY: Well, no, it`s really all about the little girl whose life was unjustly cut short. Let`s be fair. And the question, as you`re bringing it up here is this a --
BADEN: But not in the courtroom, though. Not in the courtroom.
PINSKY: I understand. But is -- okay fair enough --
BADEN: We have to remember that. I know it`s unfair, but not in the courtroom.
PINSKY: All right, but is this a sick person who needs to be sort of understood as making bad choices because of her illness? Or is this a person who has no feelings and as many have called her psychopathic and evil and all these words. Ryan, what is your impression after today watching her break down? Do you think she was coached to this reaction or is this something genuine?
SMITH: I don`t think she was coached to this reaction. I do believe it was genuine. I will say this, Dr. Drew. I`ve seen her break down when the charges are read about her. We saw that happen during jury selection. I`ve seen her break down when the evidence focuses on her and her possible guilt.
So, you always have to put it out there that hey, maybe she`s breaking down because she sees the enormity of what`s against her. But, at the same time, I saw this direct reaction of her crying when those photos were shown. It was hard for me to believe that at least somewhere inside of her this didn`t come for sadness out of what happened to her child.
PINSKY: Well Linda, thank you. You`ll be back with us. And Ryan, thank you as well. Again, you know, I -- hang with me, people. I`m trying to get my head around this, too. Let`s figure this out.
Coming up, Lee Anthony took the stand again today and revealed yet another theory of Casey`s about Caylee`s disappearance. Stay tuned.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she indicate that she did anything to stop (INAUDIBLE) from taking her daughter?
ANTHONY: She did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you why she didn`t do anything?
ANTHONY: That she was scared and she didn`t know what to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It has been yet another explosive day. Day 14 in the Casey Anthony trial. The jury saw photos of Caylee`s remains and they heard riveting testimony from her brother, Lee, who was re-called to the stand this morning. In a conversation with Casey in august of 2008, Casey supposedly told lee that Zanny the nanny, who, by the way, my whole theory is, in fact, just Xanax, but let`s put that aside for a second. Zanny the nanny forcibly took Caylee from her. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: During that meeting, Zanny held Casey down and told her that she was taking Caylee from her. From what I recall, she was held, like, on her wrists and she was held down. They were both supposedly sitting on, like, a park bench or something like that and then she was held down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did your sister tell you the reason for Caylee being taken was?
ANTHONY: In Zanny`s opinion, Casey was not being a good mother to Caylee or wouldn`t be a good mother for Caylee. And, she was taking her -- taking Caylee from her to teach her a lesson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This outrageous lying is one of the aspects of the case that prevent me from looking away. When I heard that testimony, I don`t know about you, but I actually laughed out loud. I mean, based on what we`ve heard already, the crazy lies after lies, that now just another one that`s -- it`s becoming comical.
All right. But unfortunately, it`s no joke. Not only is there someone`s life hanging in the balance, there was somebody`s life that we`ve got to keep -- want keep reminding everyone, this little girl is here -- what we`re here to serve justice.
And I know Mark who`s here with me to discuss these revelations is -- we have both the former member of the Anthony defense team, Linda Kenny Baden here with me and also I`m welcoming back criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. And Mark, of course, I mentioned justice and truth. And I know that`s not --
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You keep saying it`s not important.
PINSKY: It may be important to you, but it`s not the discipline that we`re focused on here.
EIGLARSH: It is about proven or not proven. Those should be the two entries on the verdict form. That`s all I`m saying.
PINSKY: All right. What do you make of Lee`s testimony?
EIGLARSH: More of the same with a twist. In other words, clearly they know that she`s void of credibility. I would say that she is to credibility what Carrot Top is to comedy. You know, it`s just -- it`s not there. It`s just not there at all.
PINSKY: Carrot Top is my friend, just so you know.
EIGLARSH: No offense to him. But, you know, the twist is now it`s your own flesh and blood. You not only lie but you give incredible detail about this whole story with Zanny and that will almost ensure that if she ever takes the witness stand -- it`s just not a good idea. If she ever decides to do that.
PINSKY: So, more of these lies make it -- makes it less likely she should take the witness stand.
EIGLARSH: I agree.
PINSKY: All right interesting. Okay. Now Lee said Casey told him also that nanny -- that Zanny the nanny would contact Casey through her myspace page. She actually had a specific pass word set up, it was timer 55. Would tell her to meet at various locations.
And so she had this elaborate story. Casey, of course, said she never followed up and that`s why she couldn`t see the child. Casey also told Lee that this timer 55, this password she had, timer 55, referred to how many days it would be, the 55, how many days it would be until Casey saw Caylee again. Listen to this. It`s bizarre.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: Her explanation was that from the date Caylee was taken from her until her -- until Caylee`s birthday on august 9th, that there were 55 calendar days within that period of time, and it was her understanding that -- or maybe her hope and belief, that she was going to get her back on that date. That`s all she really had to share with me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. So day one would be June 16th and day 55 would be august 9th?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Linda, you were part of the defense team at one point. I mean, that`s crazy stuff, right?
BADEN: Well, but again, it shows a psychology of her. I mean, everyone is making her out to be, like, like, a major criminal. Obviously these are lies that anyone could tell. Her family could tell they`re lies. Everyone should have known that. It`s clear she was lying.
So why is she lying, Dr. Drew? What is in her background that makes her lie like this? Because remember, up until this date, she was still making things up, but everyone said she was a good mother. So what happened? It doesn`t advance us as to how actually the child died, and that`s what we`re here to find out, isn`t it?
PINSKY: Well, it is what we`re here to find out. But, as long as you`re asking me the question, you know, what makes somebody lie, I mean, commonly what makes people lie, is some sort of severe character disturbance, which either can have a genetic component to it or severe, severe, severe trauma. And supposedly -- now we really haven`t heard about severe trauma yet. Mark I know you challenged me the other day that the -- Jose Baez came up and said something bad happened.
EIGLARSH: Right and apparently -- I think that I heard from you, what he`s alleging is not enough for us to expect her to act a bit wacky when her dad puts his most private of areas in a place reserved for only cavities and food. You know.
PINSKY: I -- what I mean by that Mark -- and again I`m happy to have my mind changed and be wrong, trust me. I want to understand this and so me being right is not important to me --
BADEN: Dr. Drew can I just -- can I just get in on this?
BADEN: Can I just get in on this?
PINSKY: Yes, go ahead.
BADEN: Remember, when I talked about a team earlier on. Whatever is being put forward is not Baez, as I keep hearing. Ann Finnell is an experienced death penalty lawyer. She has total control of what goes also on in the guilt phase in case we get to the penalty face. So there`s got to be more Ann Finnell has, that -- the reason why you have a team, why it`s presented, is to show what happened to her, or why she is lying.
PINSKY: Linda, on second, Mark`s got a comment here.
EIGLARSH: I`ve been dying to ask you. And I think that we all have these questions.
BADEN: Hi, mark.
EIGLARSH: Do we understand the defense -- hi, Linda. Pleasure to see you. I have to know in this brief period of time, so do you believe George held that lifeless body and then went and discarded this child, letting everyone believe that the child -- we`re looking for the child. We don`t know where the child is. I mean, do you really buy that? Foregoing a proper burial for his own granddaughter, lying to his wife --
BADEN: Mark, Mark --
PINSKY: And again an experienced police officer, too.
BADEN: If you go. Let me make a point Mark.
EIGLARSH: Knowing if this was an accident, by the way, she wouldn`t suffer any jail time.
BADEN: Hi Mark, hi.
PINSKY: All right, go ahead, Linda.
EIGLARSH: All right, go ahead.
PINSKY: Hang on Linda.
BADEN: That`s not true. That`s not -- that`s simply not true because if you`re a former cop and you know if a child drowns under your purview, you can be guilty of manslaughter. That`s the danger here. And no one wants to go to jail for (INAUDIBLE) --
EIGLARSH: You are wrong on that. You`re wrong.
PINSKY: Hold on, guys. She may be wrong but --
BADEN: Not necessarily.
PINSKY: I`m right because I`ve got to go to break right now. Linda, thank you so much for joining us. Very, very interesting. Mark, I know you`ll be back with us shortly.
I just want to say that it`s hard to imagine I -- again, O spoke with George`s ex-wife. A lot of people were sort of impressed by that. He has an ex-wife, and she thinks George is a pretty good guy. Tendency to lie, but not a bad guy. I`m going to talk about that. I`m also going to be taking your calls on this case and we`ll talk about, after that, what the jury has not yet heard in the Casey Anthony trial. It`s amazing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CAYLEE ANTHONY`S GRANDFATHER: Sure, Caylee might be in God`s heaven right now, but her presence is still at home with me every day. I can close my eyes and I can see her coming from her bedroom. With her silly little glasses on, her beads, whatever it might be to make me laugh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
DEPUTY EDWARD TURSO, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: He told me he had to go relieve himself in the woods, and found what he believed was a -- a skull.
I walked over to it. I stood over the skull. Looked at it and we left the area right away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Can you imagine what it would be like to hear someone describing a crime scene where your child was found? I can`t even imagine.
All right well last night we received a lot of feedback and comments from you all about the Casey Anthony case, of course. And tonight you have more questions and I`ll hopefully have a few answers for you. All right let`s get right to the phones. This is Lyric in Oklahoma. Lyric what`s up?
CALLER: Dr. Drew here`s my theory. Cindy Anthony told Casey to start being a mom and stop partying. If not, she wouldn`t watch Caylee anymore. Casey then searches for alternative babysitting practices such chloroform, used that. Put Caylee in the trunk while out with friends and the baby died from the chloroform, or exhaust fumes.
PINSKY: That`s a theory. Again it`s one of these things where, that kind of parenting to me is so egregious and so awful, I can`t even get my - - I can`t imagine somebody doing that. But, maybe that`s possible. That`s certainly a possible theory.
We`ve got a Facebook question from Pete. He asked, why do abusive parents try to make it look like there`s nothing wrong with their kids, when the abuse they inflicted has an effect on the child`s mind?
You are absolutely right, my friend. That is, in fact, one of the more frustrating aspects of dealing with parents who have been abused, but also the victims of abuse. The kids themselves will defend the parents` behavior. I needed it. I needed the discipline. It was good for me. They almost idealize the way they`re treated.
So there`s sort of a denial that exists within the family system. Within the parent child system. And the fact is the parent, in order to be abusive has to have a block in their ability to be emphatic for a child. If you empathize with a child when you`re being abusive and understand the impact of what you`re doing, you couldn`t do it. So therein lies the conundrum.
Let`s go back to the phones. We have Yvonne from Florida.
CALLER: Hi Dr. Drew. Could there be such a thing as addiction to lying? It seems it might be similar to gambling. And due to the thrill of the risk of being caught. And it seems that Casey Anthony told bigger and more outlandish lies.
PINSKY: You know I`ve never seen -- the term addiction unfortunately gets overused. And let`s be clear, there`s no such thing as lying addiction. There are people that lie chronically and just in ways that just seem hard to imagine. This is sure one of those cases.
The literature I`ve been reading about lying suggests that it almost never exists as an isolated phenomenon. In other words, there`s no condition where lying just is a thing unto itself. It always exists with other problems. Neurobiological problems, genetic disorders, character logical problems, addictions. What Casey is, whether she`s sick or really just completely impaired, evil as we say, I don`t know.
Coming up, the evidence gets gruesome. Casey Anthony, apparently, gets sick and court ends early. What can we tell from her sudden illness and reaction to the photos of Caylee`s skull?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BELVIN PERRY, JR., JUDGE, CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: The next witness that will testify, will testify concerning certain crime scene photographs. If you can not control your emotions, I ask you to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: As we mentioned earlier, Casey Anthony says she was ill and left court early after hearing, detailed is the kindest word we can say, detailed testimony concerning the remains of her daughter, Caylee. Pictures of the crime scene and Caylee`s skeletal remains were shown by the prosecution. Here they are. This is the skull of the little child laying in the grass next to trash.
Now, Judge Belvin Perry stated that Casey was sick. And by the way, you know, let`s all think about what it would be like for any of us to look at these things explicitly. And as I said earlier, I could talk you through these things, but I specifically elected not to because I do not want this airing later in the day when you`re not in your living room and your kids are flipping around and come upon something that`s truly not OK and gruesome. So, Casey said she`s sick. He sends everybody home early today. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we`re going to recess for the day. There are some events that have occurred that causes us to stop at this time. I don`t want you to speculate or try to guess why we`re ending early. It just simply we are ending at this time. OK. Ladies and gentlemen of the media, Miss Anthony is ill.
We are recessing for the day. Now, of the state and/or the defense has any comments concerning her illness nor do they want to be interviewed, I would ask that you preserve their privacy as they leave the courthouse today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know. You know, of course, any of us would have a horrible and overwhelming reaction to this, but, remember, Cindy Anthony was stuck on the stand having incredibly overwhelming emotional reactions and just gutted on through it. And in fact, the kinds of weeping and sobbing I saw from Cindy was sort of more consistent with what I would expect to see from Casey, not just kind of a panic attack and what we call syncope and near fainting.
Back with me is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and joining us here as well in the studio is Attorney Lisa Bloom. Now, Mark, does it surprise you the judge ended court early?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I would have done it. I mean, look, after lie number 296, I stopped number one believing what flowed from her mouth and also any of her actions. I`m not saying those aren`t real tears. They came from somewhere, but like any good actor, she understands how the camera`s there. It`s important. It could have been for many other reasons why she was crying.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: this is a death penalty case.
PINSKY: You never worked with Lisa Bloom, obviously.
BLOOM: Look, of course, she`s probably lying because she lies about everything. This is a death penalty case.
BLOOM: And so, the court has to preserve all of the rights of the defendant here. You don`t want a reversal on appeal later on if there`s a conviction, because she was sick and she wasn`t given an opportunity to go home and rest.
EIGLARSH: So, any time Casey says, boohoo, I`m not feeling well, unbelievable power. It`s the same power she had when she walked agents down to Universal Studios. I guess, I don`t really work here.
PINSKY: Here`s my office.
EIGLARSH: It`s a power thing.
BLOOM: This is a criminal trial. And we don`t put people to death, unless, all of their rights are protected at trial. That`s what`s going on now.
EIGLARSH: We don`t disagree, but the woman claims that she`s not feeling well, so we`re going to cancel court.
BLOOM: Well, you know, you`ve been in a lot of trials. I have, too. My clients often get very stressed out, get sick, run to the bathroom, throwing up, get illness --
PINSKY: Hang on, Mark. Do they stop the court then?
PINSKY: They have done that in your case. All right. Fair enough. Tough for everybody as these crime scene photos were unveiled to the jury. Now, the medical examiner, Gary Utz, took the stand this afternoon and talked in detail. This is kind of -- I haven`t figured this part out yet. So, I hope you guys hang with me on this one. He talked about the duct tape. That`s still mysterious to me. Now, remember, she put a little heart -- oops.
PINSKY: Somebody put a little heart over the duct tape that`s attached to Casey Anthony`s remains, but here`s --
EIGLARSH: You talk about Cindy maybe? She?
PINSKY: You guys, listen. Listen, everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape that we see in this photograph that I just indicated here, is that adhering to anything?
DR. GARY UTZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It is -- the tape, itself, was no longer adhesive as tape would be if you were to pull it off of a spool, but there were still stuck to it in the corner, a small portions of the hair, and part of the tape which is partially a fabric was attached to that hair and had also slightly attached to the mandible, itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK. So, in reminding ourselves that this was an unusual kind of tape, a tape that was also found at the Anthony house. Lisa, do you any have reaction?
BLOOM: Hugely important. To me, this is one of the most important pieces of evidence in the trial, because the defense theory is that the baby drowned. If she drowned, how does she end up with duct tape over her mouth when she`s found? It simply doesn`t make sense. It`s completely inconsistent with the defense theory.
EIGLARSH: I agree, but all that heart-shaped sticker narrows it down to only a few people. Who would do that? I`ve defended some really bad folk. They don`t put any little stickers.
PINSKY: So, let me ask both of you. Let`s float the theory about she is a psychopath, she has no feelings. I mean, I heard an FBI profiler, you know, put that on her yesterday. So, let`s speculate.
EIGLARSH: Feelings, anger, jealousy.
PINSKY: Self-preservation. Stuff like that.
EIGLARSH: She has a lot of feelings.
PINSKY: Well, interesting you would put it like that, but she doesn`t care about other people at all. Let`s put it that way. Would that person have a feeling that would cause her to put a little heart over the mouth of a victim?
BLOOM: I think she`s a very emotionally disturbed young woman, actually. And so, I`m not one of the people that you typically see on the air, you know, attacking her for being such a terrible person, because I think she`s very emotionally disturbed.
PINSKY: You will get attacked for saying that, just you know, Lisa, because people want her to be just evil. They do.
BLOOM: And I think most likely, she`s going to be found guilty but not get the death penalty. That`s my prediction --
EIGLARSH: I don`t disagree with her on that.
PINSKY: Unless the defense blows it, right?
EIGLARSH: Here`s the bottom line. They`ve narrowed it down. The defense doesn`t have a burden, but they came forward and said, here`s how it really happened. So, now, it comes down to either George doing it, putting a heart-shaped sticker, because he allegedly disposed the body if you believe the defense, or her. Who`s more likely to put a pink, little heart-shaped sticker on a child`s mouth?
PINSKY: Mommy, especially there was some testimony or some evidence somewhere that she had done this before with pets or something. She would leave that same heart sticker. In the same area. In the same area. Jury has not seen that evidence, by the way.
BLOOM: Watch for evidence to come, Drew, of the duct tape and the heart-shaped sticker being connected at the times that were found in the house.
PINSKY: Yes, that is out there.
BLOOM: That`s going to be critical.
PINSKY: That is out there, but the jury has not yet seen that evidence. But let`s go back to George. OK. So, I`ve had the great, good fortune of speaking to his ex-wife. A lot of people don`t know he had an ex-wife, but I mentioned this yesterday. There was quite a little stir --
BLOOM: I didn`t know.
PINSKY: On Twitter. It`s not being made anything up in court, interestingly. She was a lovely lady. She and I spoke to her husband of many, many years. She knew George in high school. She knew him, you know, through a marriage, and it`s a little difficult to put it all together. What she told me was that he was a consummate liar, that he lied all the time.
Yes, and that this woman, who was his ex-wife, believed that there was actually some genetic issue that had been transferred to Casey. There is such a thing, sociopathy or that kind of thing can have a genetic -- it`s not my theory. Please, don`t attack me.
EIGLARSH: She was an ex-wife. Boy, I`ve never heard any ex-wife say her former husband lies.
PINSKY: Right. Correct.
BLOOM: Blame the ex-wife for speaking the truth now that she`s free.
PINSKY: Take it with a grain of -- she, though, was not disparaging of George at all, because I asked some tough questions about, is he the kind of guy --
BLOOM: Well, calling him a liar is disparaging, isn`t it?
EIGLARSH: Hell of a guy, but he can`t speak the truth.
PINSKY: Well, but by the way, she did something that troubled me. She goes, no, he wanted to leave law enforcement. He wanted to work as a character, now, please, I heard this, as a character in Disneyland. That`s what he wanted to do. And then, I say, well, if you ever -- to me, that`s like kind of wanting to work at a carnival.
You know what I mean? It`s like, have you ever seen or be a clown -- you know what I mean? It`s like have you -- I`m not disparaging anybody that -- please, I`m not disparaging Disney characters. My kids go to Disneyland all the time. I love it.
BLOOM: You know what`s interesting about that is characters are surrounded by children.
PINSKY: That`s what I say.
BLOOM: So, that would tell me that George is somebody who really loves little children.
PINSKY: Or not. Or has other designs on children. I`m just saying.
BLOOM: Oh, Drew.
PINSKY: Just, my head went there. I`m just saying. I`m just saying.
BLOOM: No, there are stories like that.
PINSKY: Not at Disneyland. We got to take a break. Listen, it`s just what I`ve heard. Trust me. I`ll head over to Orlando --
EIGLARSH: George is key to the case. The defense made him the suspect.
PINSKY: That`s the point. I`m surprised they haven`t spoken to the ex-wife if, indeed, she`s credible at all.
Lots of intrigue and evidence surface in the courtroom today. Next, we`re going to talk about evidence the jury has not heard.
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UTZ: It is still -- it`s still attached because of this hair mat which has this ingrown plant material which is giving it a level of consistency which is holding the bones together.
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CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING DAUGHTER CAYLEE: Right now, I`m so hurt by everything. I don`t even know what to say. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way, and it probably won`t be, but I know that and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.
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PINSKY: I don`t know about that. And of course, she knew that that was being photographed. And, quick thing before I go on to this block here, I just want to remind people that I, like you, am trying to understand this, and so, I want to share with you things I`ve heard and known that may not be out there, such as my conversation with George Anthony`s ex-wife.
I may float little theories here and then. Please, we`re just trying to understand this. It`s just for conversation. I mean no ill by it to anyone that we maybe talking about here. We`re just trying to figure this thing out. That`s the goal here.
EIGLARSH: And minimize the hate mail?
PINSKY: I`m not going to be checking Twitter or Facebook for a couple days. Just I`m saying. All right. So, that was videotaped jailhouse conversation between Casey and her parents. It may have already proven to jury that she was more frightened about herself than her two-year-old daughter, Calee, but, of course, there`s more potentially incriminating evidence out there that the jury has not yet seen or heard that we can look at.
That`s the kind of stuff I`m trying to float out here to help us figure this thing out. Criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh, is back. Also we`ve got still with me is Lisa Bloom who is now a "New York Times" best-selling author of the book "Think." There it is.
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: I suggest that you buy this for your daughters for graduation. It`s an excellent book. Now, there are several photos that feature Casey night clubbing while her daughter was missing. We saw some of these photos earlier in the week, but there`s a whole new twist here that has her defense attorney, Jose Baez, fighting really hard to keep them out of the courtroom.
First, let`s take a look at the photos in question. There they are alongside of me here. She`s having a pretty good time there with somebody. Now, my goodness. That`s when your child is -- you know your child is missing or dead? It`s just too much. All right. Now, let`s take a look at Jose Baez`s recent sidebar statement to the judge about these photos.
It reads, "As far as the pictures of her dancing, now, there are certain members of the jury that may find this offensive that my client is a lesbian. Many members of the jury whose average age is 50 would be extremely offended." Ladies and gentlemen, the jury here, I`m offended by that sidebar. Anybody else?
BLOOM: I`m going to be turning 50 this summer. OK? I`ll reveal my age here on your show --
BLOOM: Let me tell you something.
PINSKY: Were you deeply offended by the photo or Jose Baez`s statement?
BLOOM: OK. My generation grew up during the 1970s, during the 1960s.
PINSKY: Of course. Lisa, I`m with you.
BLOOM: We`re not accept (ph) by lesbians. Give me a break. And we`re not going to be so silly as to say one photo of a girl dancing with another girl means we`re going to convict her of murder without the evidence --
EIGLARSH: I`m going to defend Jose for one second?
EIGLARSH: Yes. I mean --
PINSKY: For one second.
EIGLARSH: Just for one second. Yes, what he said was offensive, but, no, he needed to keep those photos out.
EIGLARSH: Not only is she not looking, but she`s staring down at a girl`s cleavage in one of the pictures. Obviously, her daughter is not there.
BLOOM: So, he`s just trying anything. Throw it against the wall, see if it`s going to stick.
EIGLARSH: They`re too damaging. He`s going to come up with something. So, he comes up with something.
PINSKY: All right. Not a very imaginative reason to keep them out of the court, but an offensive to many people including myself --
BLOOM: Thank you.
PINSKY: And Lisa. An FBI e-mail from September 2008 suggests that a photo exists showing what appears to be -- this is, to me, more disgusting and more disturbing than even the pictures of the decomposing stuff out in the field. Listen to this. It`s an outline of a child in Casey`s trunk. Now, the excerpt reads, quote, "a very interesting photo exists of the trunk liner." This is just so sad.
"There appears to be the outline or silhouette of a child in the fetal position, you can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly." Lisa, doesn`t sound good for the defense.
BLOOM: Also, very, very disturbing, because the prosecution theory is that the child died, and then, she put the child in the trunk of the car and drove around for awhile. Ultimately, there was a smell of decomposition. So, she was there for some period of time which would lead to a silhouette. I don`t want to get too graphic, but I think that`s powerful evidence for the prosecution.
EIGLARSH: I don`t know that it hurts either -- I don`t know if it helps or hurts either side. I think it`s consistent with the theory that the defense is advancing.
BLOOM: The defense said that she drowned in the pool and that George disposed her, not that she within the trunk of --
EIGLARSH: Well, hold on. They asked -- one of the witnesses, Jose did, did dad also have access to the car?
EIGLARSH: Did he have keys? I think that, ultimately, he`s going to say they`re not sure because George did it, but perhaps, George put the child in the car.
BLOOM: George is former law enforcement. He would be so silly as to put the --
BLOOM: It doesn`t make any sense.
EIGLARSH: Of course, it doesn`t make sense. The whole defense doesn`t make sense.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Let`s take a look at another piece of evidence the jury hasn`t seen. It`s a diary entry made by Casey Anthony and released by the Florida States attorney`s office in 2009. Here`s the excerpt. "I have no regrets, just a bit worried. I just want for everything to work out OK. I completely trust my own judgment and know that I made the right decision. I just hope that the end justified the means." Very draconian.
"This is the happiest that I`ve been in a very long time," signed, Macivelli. The entry date is June 21st, which would mean Casey was missing at that time. Now, the problem is there`s a facing page which includes numbers 03, creating a defense argument that Casey -- that was a 2003 entry, creating the defense argument that Casey had not yet been born yet. Now, Lisa, is there science to help us understand when that entry was made?
BLOOM: Yes, there`s ink dating, and you can tell when somebody wrote something with the pen on a piece of paper. I don`t know if that`s been done here, but boy, if this was 2008, and she`s happy and it`s consistent with the photos where she looks happy at the same time period --
BLOOM: So, there has to be some scientific evidence.
EIGLARSH: It`s bad, but it`s not a home run, because their whole theory is she was acting bizarrely because of this behavior, because of the father`s behavior.
BLOOM: She`s happy?
EIGLARSH: It`s horrible. It`s horrible, but hold on, it doesn`t blow them out of the water. They`re saying that the sexual abuse caused her to just be nuts, wacky. Their whole defense hinges upon the jurors buying that. Now, if they do, then, her writing that doesn`t suggest more one theory than the other.
PINSKY: OK. So, it all boils down to George being a horribly abusive, sexually abusive, and possibly chronically sexually abusive father, right?
PINSKY: Allegedly. That`s what the defense is boiling down to.
EIGLARSH: OK. Number one. That`s the first --
PINSKY: To me, that`s the thing, its a mountain, I agree with you.
EIGLARSH: Keep going. What else has to happen? Keep going.
PINSKY: But how are they going to prove that? In other words, what do you think we`re going to hear?
BLOOM: They`re not. The defense doesn`t have to prove it, right? The prosecution always has the --
EIGLARSH: If I`m the prosecutor, I start off my closing and I say, they never have to prove anything. It`s a cherished, fundamental, constitutional right to remain silent and not have to prove anything, but, Jose came up here in opening and he told you stuff. Now, have you heard any evidence of X, Y and Z?
BLOOM: You`d have to be careful doing that.
EIGLARSH: You would, but there`s a line.
PINSKY: Why? Why? Lisa, explain.
BLOOM: Because you cannot comment on the defendant not taking the stand and exercising her right against --
BLOOM: And if you do comment on it, it`s reversible error.
EIGLARSH: She`s absolutely right. So, it`s a fine line. You got to watch it.
PINSKY: Hold on. Let`s state this. So, if they go too far with this, it`s a mistrial?
BLOOM: That`s right.
PINSKY: And they can`t force her to go on the stand --
PINSKY: But they can point out the inconsistencies here.
BLOOM: The inconsistencies, yes.
EIGLARSH: And lack of evidence.
BLOOM: And I predict they`re not going to comment on -- Jose said this in the opening statements, but he didn`t prove it for exactly the reasons I just gave you.
EIGLARSH: They can go right up to the line. They can say what the attorneys say in opening statement is not evidence, and you`re not to consider it. That`s what the judge is going to tell you when he reads you the law.
PINSKY: And then, there`s a whole other line of reasoning they would have to take people through in terms of how George behaved which would be bizarre for a skilled officer to do so. We have no time. Mark, Lisa, thank you, very good conversation.
When we come back, I`m going to get eyewitness accounts from a woman who just spent her second day inside the Casey Anthony courtroom. It`s my jury, and it`s next.
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DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, ORANGE COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: The manner of death, though, is an opinion based on available information including examination of the body, information from the scene, as well as circumstantial evidence. Based on all of this, the manner of death in this case is homicide.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you orient us to the items in the photograph?
VOICE OF JENNIFER WELCH, INVESTIGATOR, ORANGE COUNTY CO, SHERIFF`S OFFICE: In this photograph is the skull with duct tape present, and in this photograph, the chief medical legal investigator, Steven Hansen, is picking up the skull to remove it from the scene.
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PINSKY: It`s interesting. That`s the courtroom gallery, and we`re looking at people not just fixated on these awful pictures but also studying Casey and the jurors` reactions. Now, the jurors saw the medical examiner`s grisly photos of Casey`s daughter. You will not. Remind you that I contemplated talking us through this, but I don`t want this airing later and your kids flipping on to these pictures. It just wouldn`t be OK.
So, I would like, however, to find out what my jury, an observer in the courtroom today, thought of today`s proceedings and those photos. So, joining us here is Kelly Heaney. We met her last week when she was one of the folks running to get in line for the trial. There we are. That chaos that used to erupt, but now, we`ve got, of course, our friend, Brett. I would like to call Barney Fife, making structure out of that chaos so that doesn`t happen anymore.
Kelly, this was your second day inside the courtroom. What did you think of these photos?
KELLY HEANEY, DR. DREW "JUROR": Today, the whole courtroom was just in shock of these photos, I believe. They were extremely gruesome. Judge Perry did recommend for us to leave if we were a little uneasy or felt queasy for things like this, but pretty much everyone stayed in, and he definitely was not lying when he told us how they were going to be.
PINSKY: What was it that was so gruesome about these pictures? Again, remembering there are maybe children at home watching this.
HEANEY: The main thing was the skull that they showed of little Caylee. It was very wet and shiny looking. And the thing that really disturbed me the most was about half of her hair was still attached on the skull.
PINSKY: Kelly, I want to ask you something. In that opening footage of the courtroom gallery, I noticed you were in there and you weren`t looking at the pictures. You seem to be studying somebody. Were you studying Casey, and what was her reaction like, and did you buy it?
HEANEY: I was studying her a lot. I wanted to see, you know, what her reaction was. I felt that she was acting a little bit, and I noticed that toward the end of the trial. She just kept her head down pretty much the whole rest of the time and just was not looking at any of the pictures at all.
PINSKY: So, you didn`t -- you didn`t buy that this was genuine emotion, is that accurate?
HEANEY: No, I don`t think so. I believe that her attorneys are coaching her along the way and telling her how to act.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Kelly, thank you for that report. I really do appreciate it. We will undoubtedly check back in with you again.
Now, look, there are not a lot of words that describe what it`s like to see a decomposed skull of a little girl, OK? It`s another unbelievable day from the courtroom. We are all trying to make sense of this. We will have more of our unique take on the Casey Anthony trial tomorrow night. I hope that we stimulated some thought again, helped you figure this thing out a bit. Again, you know, our moniker here is no subject is taboo, so we`re trying to take it wherever it needs to go to come to a deep understanding of what this is.
Ultimately, that picture you see along side of me is whose justice we are here to serve. This was a beautiful, young girl whose life was cut short. Whether it was because of evil or horrible, egregious parenting, whatever it is, we`re going to try to get to the bottom of this. Thank you all for watching. I will see you next time.