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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Jury Hears More Testimony About Caylee`s Remains
Aired June 10, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it and leaves it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.
Tot mom dry heaves, holds her head down in her hands, then leaves the courtroom as extremely disturbing photos of little Caylee`s skull, her empty eye sockets, her little teeth, matted clumps of light brown hair embedded in weeds and vines, little Caylee`s disassembled bones lay in a virtual trash heap.
Bombshell tonight. After a night in sick bay at Orange County jail, tot mom finally shows up in court ready for another day, hiding behind Kleenex and case files as graphic testimony about Caylee`s little legs being chewed up by animals, her whole torso being dragged off and chewed, 2-year-old Caylee`s nose gone, most of her hands and feet gone, her tiny jaw held in place by light brown matted hair, the jury in a packed courtroom looking on in revulsion at Caylee`s little bones strewn by animals, then reassembled for court.
Then renowned medical examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia insists under oath cause of death, homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do not know the cause of death in this case, do you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not make determination of cause and manner of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do not know the cause of death in this case, do you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Manner of death has been officially determined by Dr. G. as a homicide.
DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, MEDICAL EXAMINER: The manner of death in this case is homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the term "homicide" a scientific term?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you called upon to make the decision to both cause and manner of death?.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have not rendered an opinion as to the manner of death in this case, have you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I don`t care at all what people have been saying about me. All I want is Caylee home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After a night in sick bay at the Orange County jail, tot mom finally shows up in court ready for another day, hiding behind Kleenex and case files as graphic testimony about Caylee`s little legs being chewed up by animals, her whole torso being dragged off and chewed, 2-year-old Caylee`s nose gone, her hands and feet gone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The lower leg bones, the top of the bones, these have actually been chewed on by animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Duct tape was not covering the nasal aperture, was it, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cutting through the bone of the skull and removing the top of the skull, it had to be some tissue connecting these bones in order for them to be moved as a unit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dragged away from area A by some -- an animal or animals would be the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: None evidence of anything to indicate to you that this child had ever had any traumatic injury whatsoever before her death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did not see any evidence at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No indication that you can find of any prior injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t see any.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall there being a baby blanket that was found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did that laboratory identify the remains as that of Caylee Marie Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they did.
GARAVAGLIA: Homicide based on three main items. This child was not reported for a long time. The body was hidden. The duct tape somewhere located in the lower half of the face. There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies. There`s no reason to put duct tape on the face after they die.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
And what a day it has been in court today, the jury sitting in stunned silence, once again their mouths agape, staring at photos of Caylee`s body, evidence coming from the witness stand that her little legs had been chewed on by animals, her femora, her entire trunk, her torso had been dragged away intact and chewed in the underbrush by animals. Repeatedly, we hear testimony and doctors pointing to her bones with gnaw marks on them.
Straight out to Gary Tuchman, CNN national correspondent, in court today, joining us at the Orlando courthouse. Gary, what did we learn in court today?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we learned, first of all, that Casey Anthony is still sick. She was sobbing. She was crying for most of the testimony. She did not look at the pictures. Her attorneys purposely blocked the monitors so she couldn`t...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa!
TUCHMAN: ... look at the pictures...
GRACE: Wait a minute! Wait a minute, Tuchman! Wait a minute. You just said, as if it`s fact, that tot mom`s sick. Tell me this, Gary Tuchman. Does she have a fever?
TUCHMAN: I haven`t seen this before. I have seen people avoid looking at pictures...
GRACE: Oh, OK.
TUCHMAN: ... that her attorneys yesterday and today...
GRACE: No, no! No, no!
TUCHMAN: ... have worked...
GRACE: I asked you did she have a fever? Is she running a fever? Did she have abdominal pains?
TUCHMAN: Oh, I`m sorry.
GRACE: Did she have to go the hospital? Did she break a limb? Why do you say she`s sick?
TUCHMAN: No, I made this very clear yesterday and I`m making it clear today, allegedly, she`s sick. And it was very interesting. Yesterday, the judge categorically said she`s ill. The court said it. I`m surprised the judge would say that.
We don`t know if she`s ill or sick. We don`t know why she feels bad. Maybe she feels bad for her daughter. Maybe she feels bad for herself because she`s coming closer and closer to the possibility of a date on the gurney with a lethal injection. Maybe she wants the jury to feel she`s sick. Maybe it`s a combination of all three. We don`t know. All I can tell you for sure, Nancy, is that she didn`t look good in court today.
GRACE: And I know this, Gary Tuchman. I know that she was in sick bay last night, and if she had been physically sick, she would not be in court today. And with all of this alleged dry heaving and retching, have you heard one drop of vomit hit the bottom of the trash can? I haven`t.
TUCHMAN: No. No, we haven`t -- we haven`t heard that or seen that. But I will tell you, we`re keeping a close eye to see if that does, indeed, happen. But I can tell you for sure she`s not looking at the pictures, but she`s hearing the descriptions.
And I will tell you it`s very hard for us to look. It`s very hard for us to listen. It`s our job. We have to. But it`s very painful. And you`re right, the jury is just in stunned silence as they`re looking at this, as they`re hearing these descriptions.
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx, along with Gary Tuchman, joining us at the courthouse, Drew with WDBO, also in court all day long. Drew, what was the description that sent tot mom into apparent tears today?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: Well, today, we were hearing from a forensic anthropologist, John Schultz (ph). He`s a professor at a local university here, and he basically led the excavation of the site where Caylee`s remains were found.
And he talked about how many of the bones were being chewed up and dispersed by animals at the scene. At one point, you pointed out, he said that the whole torso with the legs attached was dragged away from the original remains spot to another part of that swampy, wooded area.
He was also pointing out on bones, on part of the leg bones, where animals had chewed up part of the bones, so extremely descriptive and gruesome testimony about what actually happened during the days, weeks or months at this remains site where Caylee was dumped.
GRACE: You are seeing the human skeleton. Many of Caylee`s little bones were pieced back together again, but actually, a lot of them, Ellie Jostad, were never found.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. And the jury actually saw a picture of the skeleton put back together as best they were able to back at the medical examiner`s office. And you could see that most of the right foot was gone. Some other small bones appeared to be missing. And Dr. Schultz explained these were teeny, tiny bones from a child, parts of bones, and they were on their hands and knees trying to recover all the remains from the site.
GRACE: To Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of LA. Dr. Oliver, how many bones are there in a human body?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEP. MEDICAL EXAMINER: Offhand, I can`t recall.
GRACE: Well, as I recall, over 200 bones in the human body.
To Gary Tuchman. Many of little Caylee`s bones were never recovered, is that correct?
TUCHMAN: Some were not recovered. And the reason they weren`t recovered, according to the testimony today, is because, sadly, and hard to listen to, animals dragged the bones away. But that`s an important part of the testimony.
But the prosecution -- and this was a good day for the prosecution because what the prosecutors established was that it appears from the experts that this body was there for six months and hadn`t been moved. The only bones that weren`t there were bones taken away by animals. And what the defense wants the jury to believe is that this meter reader, who they`re going to pin a lot of this on later -- that this meter reader took the body, took possession of it, then brought it to the scene, staged this a couple of months ago.
But what the prosecution witnesses are saying is that they think this body was here for many, many months.
GRACE: And Gary Tuchman -- yes, Liz, let me see all of the crime scene photos that we`ve got. Just keep them revolving. They`ve seen all of us talking heads enough.
Gary, one of the reasons, and I think one of the strongest reasons, the state has to support their theory Caylee`s body has been there for a full six months before it`s found December 11, is that Tropical Storm Fay came. The water rose. Her body rose and sat in that water. Then when the water began diminishing, all of that silt, all of that soil came down on top of Caylee`s bones and rested there.
Specifically, they describe this about her pelvic region, how the sediment had come back down. And it`s virtually impossible for some utility meter reader to have staged that scene, Gary Tuchman.
TUCHMAN: Absolutely right, Nancy. But perhaps the most important evidence -- and I`ve watched the jury when they`ve listened to this -- is the masking tape on Caylee`s mouth. That is really important evidence for the prosecution.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the skull shown in this photograph?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I discovered the remains of a human body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kronk is a morally bankrupt individual.
CASEY ANTHONY: When I told them I would lie, I would steal, it`s the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who actually took Caylee`s body and hid her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person that found it may have kicked it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, cameraman!
911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven`t done anything wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny held Casey down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doing her best to stand up to the powers that are working against her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Told her that she was taking Caylee from her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there somewhere, and her rotten body is starting to decompose.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: This little child right here -- she is the victim in all of this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something you never forget.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cannot control your emotions.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh! Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sickening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I ask you to leave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are here live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, 25-year-old Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. Today in court, in stunned silence, as you see tot mom sobbing away again, we heard about Caylee`s remains being dragged, her bones being dragged away and gnawed on by animals.
You just saw what was left of her little T-shirt. It said "Big trouble." Let`s see that again. There are her little shorts, filthy and tattered. All that was left of her shirt were these letters. Let`s see the original shirt, Liz. There she`s wearing the shirt -- "Big trouble, small packages -- comes small."
That leads me to a question. To you, Gary Tuchman. The defense theory -- everybody, you can see Gary Tuchman every night on Anderson Cooper "AC 360" at 10:00 o`clock. Please watch him tonight.
Gary, the whole defense theory now -- the new theory -- is that Caylee must have wandered out of the house in the middle of the night and gotten into the pool, or say, the super-early morning hours, you know, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00 o`clock in the morning, and drowned in the pool.
Then why, Gary Tuchman -- put Tuchman up, please. Why, Gary Tuchman, was she wearing these clothes and not her pajamas? Could you tell me that?
TUCHMAN: Yes. No idea, Nancy. What I will tell you is that using that as a defense theory will very likely come back to haunt them, and it`s because of the duct tape. Why would there be duct tape on little Caylee`s mouth area all these months later if she drowned in a pool? What`s the reason? What they`re going to try to say is that this meter reader did that. Why would the meter reader put duct tape on her mouth? It doesn`t make any sense. That`s going to haunt them. I can tell you that right now. I know that from watching this jury.
GRACE: Well, and another thing, Gary Tuchman -- I want to get back to show you what happened in court, but Gary Tuchman, another thing is they`re saying meter reader Roy Kronk found the remains, gathered up all the remains, took, them home. What did he do, put them in a jar on the coffee table and hide them, hide them out in the garage somewhere? Then later, he goes out there, redeposits them, strews them around as if animals had been on them. And then, what, mysteriously drops the silt from Tropical Storm Fay and has them embedded in weeds and vines growing up all over them?
You know, that`s some staging job a utility meter reader did. What about that, Tuchman?
TUCHMAN: Well, jurors don`t like when you impugn people without evidence. Will they have evidence? I don`t know. But not only, obviously, the meter reader, they`re saying that he`s responsible for putting the body there and putting tape on the body, they`re also, of course, calling Casey`s father a molester, and there`s absolutely no proof of that whatsoever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no indication that the body was dismembered by using any kind of tool or anything like that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. We did not -- we did not see any evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whatever separation occurred was through the natural process of decomposition?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct, would have been natural.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The top of the bones, these have actually been chewed on by animals?
CINDY ANTHONY: You`d be surprised the crap that`s come in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was holding the mandible in place?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hair that had moved to the base of the skull.
CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The front of the skull was duct taped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tape was adhered to the hair, but I don`t recall it holding the mandible in place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Human bones (INAUDIBLE) muscle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seemed to be embedded in the vines.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s sickening. It`s disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The eye socket.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the odor. What died?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t have any answers!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bloat stage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were portions of bone that were disrupted.
CASEY ANTHONY: If they have nothing positive to say, they need to shut up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. Gruesome facts in court today, tot mom hiding behind Kleenex and case files, as one witness after the next describing Caylee`s bones being strewn by animals.
At one point, she turned beet red, just like she did when she learned that remains had been found. This is before she knew those remains were Caylee`s. Remember that, Ellie Jostad?
JOSTAD: That`s right, Nancy. That happened in jail when she actually saw a news report about the fact that the remains had been found. The jailer said that she turned red, she appeared to start almost hyperventilating. She was saying that her hands hurt. Her restraints were too tight.
GRACE: But today, she turned beet red again. What happened?
JOSTAD: Right. It was when Cheney Mason, her defense attorney, asked Dr. Gary Utz on cross if he reset the caliperium (ph). And then he went on to explain that that means when they cut open the skull and the remove the top part of the skull. That`s when Caylee (SIC) Anthony became very upset again. She looked again she maybe would be sick, just like she did yesterday.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. But first to Diane France, forensic anthropologist, the director of the Human Identification Lab of Colorado. Diane, thank you for being with us. We know that they said in court Caylee`s femora, her legs, had been chewed on by animals. How can they tell that?
DIANE FRANCE, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, usually, you still have tooth marks or you have some crushing near the ends of the bones. If you have a severed remain, severed bone, then it`s usually a sharp cut or a sawed cut, something like that.
Now, one caveat about that is that remains can be severed, the legs can be severed, and then the animals will come in after that and chew on the severed end and destroy the severing evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, you testified under direct examination that the smell of human decomposition is unique.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Essentially, jumped back a foot or two. The odor was extremely overwhelmingly strong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zanny`s opinion, Casey was not being a good mother.
GEORGE ANTHONY, GRANDFATHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: You are a great mom. You`re always going to be a great mom. I know that. Your mom knows that. Lee knows that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was circumferential around the skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neck breaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Key word search for "chloroform."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "How to make chloroform."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Found the word "chloroform."
CASY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: They are going to feel dumb when all of this comes back and Caylee is home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We actually passed the bag and skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Run searches for "chloroform."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the word "Chloroform." "Ruptured spleen." "Chest trauma."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search turned up internal bleeding.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve been here a month today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony is ill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the Caylee Anthony area, right by the.
CASEY ANTHONY: Do you understand how I feel?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Welcome back. We`re here outside of the Orange County Courthouse where this morning there was a literal stampede with one woman having to be taken to the hospital after being crushed by people running to try to get over her into the courtroom. We`ll have one of those people with us later on.
What a day in the courtroom today as tot mom hide behind Kleenex and case files, trying not to look at the remains of her little girl, her 2- year-old little girl that prosecutors say she murdered. Straight out to Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO.
Drew, for those of us viewers just joining us, what happened in court today?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO REPORTER: Well, Nancy, first we heard from a forensic anthropologist. This man basically excavated the site where Caylee`s remains were found. He talked about how animals had dispersed little bones all throughout that swampy area. He also showed jurors pictures of little pieces of her vertebrae, also her leg bones.
Then we heard from another key witness, Dr. Jan Garavaglia, she`s the chief medical examiner here in Orange County. Now she`s the person that determined that the manner of death in this case was a homicide. Of course, very key for the prosecution because they are seeking first degree murder in this case.
But another key about her testimony is that she said the cause of death is undetermined because the remains were so far along that they can`t determine exactly what happened to her. That`s a point the defense hit hard on, basically saying that she doesn`t know how little Caylee was killed.
GRACE: But, throughout it all, she is insisting, is she not, Gary Tuchman, that the manner of death is homicide, regardless of whether the killer gets a gold star or an A-plus for the body degenerating and decomposing beyond any chance of determining cause of death, manner of death, is she is firm and it`s in her autopsy report, which I`ve got right here, the manner of death is homicide.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s increasingly clear from the prosecution`s case that they believe that Caylee died by the hand of this mother by suffocating her with this duct tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Homicide based on three main items. This child was not reported for a long time. The body was hidden. The duct tape somewhere located on the lower half of this face. There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies. There`s no reason to put duct tape on the face after they died.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us from Vegas, Richard Herman, defense attorney who practices all over the country. Stacy Schneider, defense attorney, New York.
First to you, Herman. Another thing that has happened, Lee Anthony back on the stand and he tells the story of tot mom completely revamping her story about how Caylee went missing. First of all, her first story to him, her own brother, was that she dropped Caylee off at Sawgrass Apartments with a nanny and then was never seen again.
Man, look how he has aged in the past couple of years since Caylee went missing. Now he tells the jury that in August a new story emerges and that is that the nanny and her sister hold tot mom down physically at a public park, Jay Blanchard Park, and yank the child away because she, tot mom, has been a bad mommy.
So now they are holding her down in a public park, taking the child. That should have been wake up call to everybody.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, another act of desperation by the prosecution with a weak to go, proving she`s a liar, putting on shoddy forensic evidence and inflaming this jury and prejudicing this jury by this gruesome testimony, which will probably - that, along with Dr. Vass, will probably get reversal (INAUDIBLE) if she gets convicted, is just an act of desperation.
They have not tied Casey into this crime scene, they will not be able to link her to this, and there`s no cause of death, that is highly significant.
GRACE: OK. Richard Herman, may I ask you, I`m sure you have got a rough estimate as to how many murder cases you`ve tried.
HERMAN: Several, Nancy. How many death penalty cases have you tried?
GRACE: Well, being in the Atlanta Special Prosecution Division for a decade, I got to work on quite a few murder and death penalty cases. But my point is, Richard, have you ever tried a murder case where crime scene photos did not come in? That`s a yes or no answer.
HERMAN: The judge has to make a determination whether the prejudice.
GRACE: Yes, was that a yes or no?
HERMAN: . outweighs the probative value. And here I think it`s a mistake.
GRACE: OK. I`ll ask Stacy since you don`t want to answer.
Yes. Have you ever tried a murder case where crime scene photos did not come in ever, once?
STACY SCHNEIDER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Crime scene photos always come in.
GRACE: No, I`m asking Herman. Herman, answer.
HERMAN: Yes they come in, but not to this extent and not to this extent of the testimony.
GRACE: OK. So you`ve never tried a homicide case ever where the crime scene photos did not come in. You know what? I`m just a J.D. lawyer. I`m not an M.D. I don`t know how to pull teeth. So I`ll go back to Stacy Schneider.
Stacy, isn`t it true -- you`re a veteran defense attorney, but I think I can extract the truth from you. Isn`t it true that in a murder scene the crime scene photos come in routinely? Not repetitive, not photos of the autopsy itself but the crime scene photos.
SCHNEIDER: The crime scene photos always come in, Nancy. The only thing that`s controlled is maybe the number of photos. If there are 20 or 25 photos, they will limit it. And they don`t want it prejudicial to the jury that the image is repeated over and over again.
But it`s evidence of the crime. It`s part of the forensic evidence, the crime scene evidence, it`s all relevant to the case and it`s relevant, it comes in.
GRACE: To Andrew J. Scott, former police chief, Boca Raton, president of AJS Consulting, joining us here in Florida, Andrew, in fact, in every single murder case you have been attached to, isn`t it true that crime scene photos come in, and this case is no exception?
They have got to prove their case, they`ve got to bring in the crime scene photos. I don`t know what Herman is talking about.
ANDREW J. SCOTT, PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Absolutely, I`ve never had a homicide case that I`ve been involved with where the - and it went to trial where the photographs were excluded. Obviously there`s a limit to the number of photographs.
But the other thing that`s extremely important, the jury has to get an idea of what the crime scene was like in order to wrap their conceptual minds around the totality of the events and the evidence that is being presented.
So to exclude crime scene photographs in its totality, unheard of as far as my experience has been.
GRACE: Ridiculous.
OK. Natisha Lance, our producer, also in court with the whole team today. Natisha, during this testimony at what point was it that tot mom began the alleged dry heaves again?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, just as Ali (ph) had explained, it was during that point when Cheney Mason was doing his re- cross-examination on Mr. Utz. And that`s when he talked about the skull and that top layer being removed, and that`s when Casey Anthony got extremely agitated and upset yet again.
GRACE: And, Natisha, I assume that grandfather George and grandmother Cindy and Lee stayed out all day?
LANCE: They were not in the courtroom today, Nancy. But their attorney Mark Lippman there was for them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recognize that as a photograph of, I believe, the front of the pair of shorts we looked at the back of?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you remove the duct tape?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you cut it loose from the hair?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This particular garment, obviously in photograph appears to have a number of holes in it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it does.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you careful in handling the duct tape, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you wear protective gloves?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you suited up in full protective clothing in the medical examiner`s office?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears that the shorts had been torn, cut or the product of insect and predator activity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall looking at pictures of the mandible?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom jaw?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recall you said it was held in place by the hair and roots as shown in the photographs, is that correct, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Today in court another parade of photos of little Caylee`s remains. Her femora, her legs chewed on by animals, her torso, her trunk dragged away by animals. Tot mom hiding behind a box of Kleenex all day long as she listened to gruesome testimony, but the jury and court-watchers sitting in stunned silence, many of them with their mouths agape. We`re taking your calls. Go to Julie in Michigan.
Hi, Julie, are you there?
CALLER: Yes.
GRACE: What`s your question?
CALLER: Well, the question was, you know, if this was the outfit that she was wearing on the last day, or the day they found her?
GRACE: I don`t think it was. Was it, Elly (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears that she was wearing - or at least different clothing was recovered than what George Anthony saw.
GRACE: OK. Out to the lines. Gary in Ohio. Hi, Gary. I think I`ve got Gary on the line. Gary, are you with me?
CALLER: Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
CALLER: Hi. I`m calling from Ohio. Early on during that funeral, Lee Anthony and family was there. Lee Anthony spoke about Casey and he did mention quote or something to the effect that Casey`s secret is safe with him. I`m just wondering how extensive is that secret?
GRACE: You know what, Gary? That has been a recurring question. To Natisha Lance, what do you make of what Lee Anthony said about the secret he had with tot mom as this trial unfolds?
LANCE: Well, Nancy, I was at that memorial. And it was just as much of a mystery then as it is today. And what Lee Anthony said is the initial CMA. And the interesting thing is that Casey Anthony, Cindy Anthony, as well as Caylee Anthony all share those same initials. So it`s unclear as to who he was making that message to.
GRACE: Whatever the secret is, we don`t know. And back to the lawyers. Richard Herman, Stacy Schneider, big sidebar with Jose Baez worried that party pics of his client dancing with another woman at the bar would make her look like a "lesbian." That`s his big concern.
You know, Stacy, I think that he should be worried possibly about Caylee`s body being dragged away by animals and her legs being chewed on or maybe those computer searches for neck breaking and how to make chloroform. What do you think? Who cares if a photo makes her look like a lesbian? Like I care about that. Don`t care.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, well, he has got obviously all this difficult forensic evidence to overcome but he doesn`t want the inflammation from these party photos in there and he`s using it as an excuse, the lesbian excuse as to why they shouldn`t come in.
But it`s an emotional reason. He doesn`t want this jury to see how this mother acted after her child was missing. He`s doing damage control as best he can.
GRACE: Richard?
HERMAN: Nancy, Baez has to worry more about losing total credibility with this jury for standing up there and making that ridiculous opening that he made that he can`t prove any aspect of. That`s more important. That`s what he should be having sleepless nights over in this case.
GRACE: Yes, you know what, that`s one thing you`ve said all along, Herman. Keep it short and sweet.
To Leslie Seppinni, clinical psychologist, L.A. Leslie, what do you make of tot mom having to leave court sick yesterday over these photos?
LESLIE SEPPINNI, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Oh, I think it`s simply a panic attack that she`s being closed in on, regarding the fact that she`s going have to take responsibility and that there probably is going a very severe, severe consequence. And it`s the first time she`s faced with that reality.
GRACE: To Amanda Decker, one of the court-watchers involved in the stampede this morning at the courthouse. Amanda, what happened?
AMANDA DECKER: Oh, we were standing in line and, of course, I had been there since 1:00 a.m., and there was probably over 100 people there and, of course, everybody is rowdy. And right as we`re approaching the line somebody had stepped on a lady`s flip-flop. She went flying forward and of course got ran all over. And I tried help her up kind of but, you know, we`re all in a rush to get to the front.
So once we got to the front she come up and the EMT come and got her and brought her, I guess to the hospital.
GRACE: Amanda, may I ask, what about this case prompted you to be there at 1:00 a.m. to stand in line?
DECKER: Well, I`m a huge Nancy Grace fan and I had been watching the case since the first episode. And I had to get in to see what the outcome was going to be for today.
GRACE: And, Amanda, did you make it into the courtroom?
DECKER: I did. I`m in seat 23. Super excited. Yes, I did.
GRACE: Amanda, I cannot believe that there was another stampede and that a woman had to actually be taken to the hospital. But, Amanda, I`d like to thank you for being with us tonight and I`m very happy for you, anyway, that it wasn`t you run over early this morning.
Everybody, very quickly too, "CNN Heroes."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELENA DURON MIRANDA (through translator): Currently in Argentina there are a lot of children working. Most children work recovering waste from the garbage dump to sell for a small profit. They can be very small children, 3, 4, 5 years old.
All parents apartment want a better life for their children than what they had but there are times when the whole family has to work and try to make ends meet. My name is Elena Duron Miranda. I founded an organization to have the boys and girls of the (INAUDIBLE) trash dump to get out so they no longer have to work there to survive.
When I arrived in Argentina, it was hard to see so many small children picking through garbage. Many of the boys and girls have dropped out of school. I decided that I had to do something for them.
We try to be as fully integrated as possible. There is a school tracking group of psychologists and a social worker. We work with the family and the value of putting them in school.
Any time we get a child close to school, it`s a seed we are planting. You hope not to see the child on the street again. If he returns, we go after him. Education is how we start to break vicious cycles to give children a better future. I learn something from the children every day, to be happy even under very complex circumstances.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way, finally, reality hits. The consequences of murder and the brutal death of 2-year- old Caylee Marie Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smelled of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stages of decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fresh stage. Bloat stage. Active decay. Dry stage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: User at the time had their Google search engine up, typed in "how to make chloroform."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search results, "head, underscore, injury." "Meningeal artery." "Ruptured spleen." "Chest trauma." "Internal bleeding." "Inhalation." (INAUDIBLE). "Self defense." "Hand-to-hand combat." Capital "C-H-L-O-R-O-F-O-R-M." "Neck breaking."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never seen chloroform at that level in 20 years of these types of samples.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) comes out of the trunk with his front paws and gives me a final (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell the members of the jury where (INAUDIBLE) alerted her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within that circle in that area. Play house, sand box is behind the little bench area, picnic table.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We actually passed the bag and skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skull is located to the west -- the northwest area of the log.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I stood over the skull, looked at it, and we left the area right away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The front of the skull with duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony is ill. We are recessing for the day.
CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now if the state nor the defense has any comments concerning her illness, we`re ending at this time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Mario Bievre, 34, Glendale Heights, Illinois, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation, National Defense Service Medal. Loved animals, working out, cars, electronics, spoiling his little girl. Remembered for having a big heart. Leaves behind grieving parents Monique and Edward. Sister Marcia (ph). Widow Angela. Daughter, Adriana (ph). Mario Bievre, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us. Everyone, I`ll see you Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be here outside the Orlando courthouse as we in our own way seek justice for Caylee. And until then, good night, friend.
END
