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Nancy Grace
Insect Experts Testify in Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 13, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it and leaves it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.
Bombshell tonight. Will a death penalty verdict hang on a bug? Phorid flies -- AKA coffin flies, known to feed off human remains -- swarming tot mom`s trunk, proving tot mom hides Caylee`s body in her car, driving for days before dumping the 2-year-old just 19 feet from a busy road, the science so exact, it shows Caylee already decomposing when she`s first locked into that trunk.
And in a highly controversial move, the jury sees a video re-enactment of thick duct tape actually asphyxiating 2-year-old Caylee. And tonight, we finally learn why the FBI experts cannot get prints off the duct tape. Evidence of a mother`s touch, that heart-shaped sticker placed directly over Caylee`s mouth, stuns the jury. And tonight, will a psychic come into court?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First one piece.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three pieces of duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then two.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape over her mouth and jaw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then three.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very big red flag for homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The glue was almost gone and the duct tape was no longer sticky.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would be the front of the skull with duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A human skull dropped out with hair around it and duct tape across the mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An outline of a heart appeared on one of the corners on the edge of that piece of duct tape.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: They`ve already said they`re going to pin this on me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Placed it over the skull, looked at it, and we left the area right away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape anywhere attached to that child`s face is, to me, indication of a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All you have is speculation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Will a death penalty verdict hang on a bug? Phorid flies -- AKA coffin flies, known to feed off human remains -- swarming tot mom`s drunk. Do they prove tot mom hides Caylee`s body in her car, driving around for days before dumping the 2-year-old just feet from the road? And tonight, photos of Caylee`s skull have been released. You will not be seeing them here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Purpose of the demonstration is to illustrate that it is possible that the tape would cover both the child`s nose and the mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever seen a hair with the decomp band that didn`t come from a corpse?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not reporting that child missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tossed in a field to rot in bags.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know I`m running out of options.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never seen in an accidental death of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It must have been a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is the only logical conclusion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies were there. It most likely was decompositional fluid.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: It stunk so bad. You know how hot it`s been.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The source of the decomposing fluids could not have been in the trunk very long because of the heat.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: That smell took my breath away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando courthouse, taking your calls at the end of the courthouse day, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee.
Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," in court all day long. Jean, I know the photos of Caylee`s skull and all of her bones have been made public. We are not showing them. Whatever you see tonight, they will be pixilated. If you want to see something like that, go to another show or log on line somewhere. You will not be seeing that here.
To Jean Casarez. Tell me what happened.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, as far as this video, in a sense that the jury saw, it was graphic. It was the picture of Casey. (SIC) It was the imposition of the skull over that and one piece of duct tape. But the judge said the jury has seen Casey (SIC). The jury has seen the skull, and the jury has seen duct tape. It assists the jury. It is relevant because all sides have now focused in on the duct tape.
GRACE: What we are talking about, in a highly controversial move, hotly contested by the defense in court, just a couple of hours ago, the state shows a re-enactment of sorts of how duct tape actually asphyxiated Caylee.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Jason Oshins, defense attorney across the United States joining us tonight out of New York. John Manuelian, defense attorney joining us out of LA.
Gentlemen, yes, this was hotly contested in court. But this is not the first time a demonstration has been used. Let me just remind you about O.J. Simpson. Do I have to bring him up, when he put the glove on in front of the jury? That was a demonstration. And that was done without Simpson ever even taking the stand, in effect, testifying without subjecting himself to cross-examination. That`s an example.
Another example, Susan Wright (ph), remember the trial where she allegedly stabbed her husband 100 times as he`s tied to the bed? Yes, that demonstration went to the jury where a prosecutor got up on the murder bed and straddled a human form and stabbed it 100 times.
Then, of course, there was Louise Woodward, the nanny there. You see a little baby model being shaken and shaken and shaken. So this is not unusual.
First to you, Jason Oshins.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, we`re not talking about all -- you know, these different cases in the abstract. We`re talking about prejudicial versus probative. What would go -- that`s why it was so hotly contested, is what would shock the jury. I mean, sure, they`ve seen these different items of evidence submitted, but not all at once in that graphic a form, where the defense is concerned about the shock value versus the probative value.
GRACE: OK, what about it, Manuelian?
JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s completely discretionary. It`s up to the judge. In the O.J. case, Judge Ito made a judgment call. The judge doesn`t -- Perry doesn`t have to go with what Judge Ito did. And in this case, if the probative value didn`t outweigh the prejudicial effect, that was the judge`s call.
GRACE: So bottom line, it`s not reversible.
We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her daughter 2-year-old, Caylee.
Natisha Lance, our producer, in court all day long. Natisha, what can you tell me about coffin flies?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, this testimony came from Dr. Neal Haskell. And what he said is that he believes Caylee`s body may have been in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car for three to five days. But prior to that, he said that he thinks the body was in another location because the first colonizers of bugs that would come onto that body were not present in the trunk of the car. And he only found one adult leg for a blowfly. But he did find hundreds of -- evidence of hundreds of phorid flies in that trunk of the car. They were on napkins, and they believe that those napkins had fatty acid -- fatty tissue on those that is consistent with human decomposition.
GRACE: OK, Natisha, I think you`ve been listening to a little too much evidence because you sounded just like one of the Ph.D.s they put up on the stand.
Let me go to Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist joining us out of University of Florida. Jason, try to break it down for me. Let me see if I`ve got this right. When a body is in the initial stages of decomposition, it might attract blowflies. They are a completely different type of parasite bug than a coffin fly. What they found in tot mom`s trunk was a swarm of coffin flies. Explain to me why that is significant, Jason Byrd.
JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST (via telephone): Well, that`s correct. The blowflies usually come in first. They`re known as early arrivers in decomposition. And then they`re followed by a number of flies, and phorid flies are in this group. They`re very small, and they can often feed on simply the liquid that is present and left behind.
So if the theory is that there may have been only liquid left behind after early stages of decomposition, that would be one of the fly species that would come in and colonize anything that was in the trunk and had the decomp fluid on it.
GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez, in court. Everybody, this trial has been going on through the weekend. Jean Casarez, please explain to me tot mom`s reaction, if any, when they`re showing this re-enactment of duct tape that goes over little Caylee`s mouth and nose, how one piece of duct tape is so thick that it can go over the mouth and the nose. Did she sit there scowling just like that?
CASAREZ: Listen to this. Listen to this, Nancy. It was shown to the attorneys and Casey Anthony with the jury out of the room because there was argument. The defense didn`t want it in. I watched, and I watched Casey look at it. She did not turn away, Nancy, when the skull came up and the duct tape came over it. The judge allowed it in. Jury comes in. It`s played again, and she turned away. She didn`t watch when the skull came up and the duct tape came up.
GRACE: OK. Now, you are seeing her actual reaction. But Jean, you`re telling me she saw it when the lawyers saw it, and then she saw it again when the jury came in?
CASAREZ: Yes.
GRACE: So when the jury...
CASAREZ: Yes, and remember, she has not looked at her skull.
GRACE: So when the jury was out, did she grimace and scowl, or was that just for the jury?
CASAREZ: She had a perplexed look on her face, but the main thing is she watched it. And she hadn`t watched any video, any picture of the skull of her child before the jury.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Teri in Ohio. Hi, Teri. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, that`s great. My question is something I haven`t seen mentioned at any part -- or in any of the reports of the trial, is the baby daddy. Has anybody looked into whether he`s around or who he is or she knows who he is?
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, chief editorial producer. The age-old question, who`s the daddy? Who`s the daddy, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, nobody knows. That`s the bottom line. Casey Anthony told a bunch of people various stories. But one thing that`s consistent is she seemed to always say that the father of Caylee was deceased.
GRACE: Well, Ellie, if he was around, don`t you think he would have crawled out of the woodwork by now?
JOSTAD: Yes, you`d certainly think so, Nancy.
GRACE: Everyone, we are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courthouse day in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, in the alleged murder of this little 2- year-old girl, her little girl. Tonight, we learn her body thrown just 19 feet from the street in a makeshift pet cemetery. But why wasn`t it found? Will the defense call utility meter reader Roy Kronk?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It probably was a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not probably. I think that is the only logical conclusion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A liquid left a stain in the trunk liner.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did there seem to be something on the towels that the flies were attracted to?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It most likely was decompositional fluid. Three, four, five days in the trunk of that car with that heat would have certainly produced enough of the (INAUDIBLE) fluid from the remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe it`s scientifically defensible to say it`s a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found hair samples in the trunk of the car that are similar in length and color to that of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The band is in between these two lines, so that dark, opaque area above the root. It`s what I would identify as post- mortem banding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A specific intent to end that child`s life!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes people try to conceal certain items of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They may.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As she hung up, she said, Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I was completely truthful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After Caylee died, Casey did what she`s been doing all her life, living a lie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the tot mom, Casey Anthony, murder trial, the mother accused of killing her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, the body found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, we now learn only 19 feet off the road.
Jean Casarez, it`s amazing that no one found the body, it being just 19 feet off the road. I mean, you can see it. Liz, let`s pull up some of the photos of the crime scene where you can see just how close it is to the road. Why, Jean? Why did it take so long to find Caylee?
CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, the defense is going to use that. That is big for the defense. But let`s look at the facts. There was a hurricane. It was flooded. There was a lot of water. Who`s to say that that bag didn`t drift around that area and just end up there?
GRACE: Which leads me to my next point. Does that mean, Jean Casarez, that the defense is going to have to call Kronk, the utility meter reader that stumbled onto Caylee`s tiny body and finds a skull? Will they have to call them to prove their point? Remember, their theory is -- and they told the jury in opening statement -- that Kronk steals the body, hides it in secret for months, then goes back, lays it out there so he can collect the reward. The state didn`t call Kronk.
CASAREZ: The state did not call Kronk. The defense did say they`re going to call his estranged son, but how much can he testify to? I think it`s called hearsay, right? I think the defense may call Kronk.
GRACE: You are seeing an animation that the jury saw as to how close to the street Caylee`s little body was.
Rory O`Neill, joining us from Metro Networks, I assume that you recall when Tropical Storm Fay hit Florida. The water in that area -- oh, there`s the shot. There`s the shot, Liz. Thank you. Look how close she was to the street. The water rose, bringing the body up with it, and then it redeposited the body, Rory O`Neill.
RORY O`NEILL, METRO NETWORKS: That`s right, Nancy. It`s actually -- it`s almost like a retention pond, a swampy area that after Fay was probably in about six inches of water immediately after that storm. And then the water receded, and it took five months before Roy Kronk stumbled on those remains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say in the documents that Cindy Anthony told them a Winnie-the-Pooh blanket was missing from Caylee`s bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall there being a baby blanket that was found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who`s that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Winnie-the-Pooh with Piglet on its back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee`s remains were found with a Winnie-the- Pooh blanket.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show the jury the post-mortem band that you saw in this -- in this case on your confirming examination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. The bands is in between these two lines, so that dark, opaque area above the root.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And is that a fairly classic example of post- mortem band?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is what I would...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
To Natisha Lance. The medical examiner, nicknamed Dr. G. -- she took the stand like a storm. And I thought a couple of times, she was going to come down off that witness stand and wring a knot in Jose Baez`s neck, just the way that the cross-examination went and he is the lead defense attorney. But she was convinced that it is homicide. There`s Dr. G. in her own show, excellent reputation. But interesting to me what she said about drowning deaths.
LANCE: Right, Nancy. And she really did knock it out of the park. But what she said -- she gave three reasons as to why she thought this was a homicide. First, she said it was never reported in 31 days. Caylee was never reported missing. Secondly, she said the body was concealed. It was left out there to rot like trash. And third, the duct tape that was over Caylee`s skull.
But as far as the drowning goes, she said 100 percent of her observational studies show that any parent who finds their child who has been drowned would always call 911. And that didn`t happen in this case.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, for once, Baez stepped down and let Mason do the cross-exam. But the way that Dr. G. kept looking over at Baez, the way she kept looking at Mason, they were clearly outdone with her testimony. She could have taught them a thing or two. And you know, they`ve had months to prepare for this moment. I found it extremely compelling the way this woman, a renowned medical examiner, Dr. G., said in 100 percent of accidental drownings in the state of Florida, 911 is called.
Break it down for me, Jean.
CASAREZ: It was compelling that the statistical data shows when it`s really an accident, everybody calls 911. But here`s the challenge with the defense. Cheney mason was trying to show you don`t know if it`s a homicide or not. Maybe it should have been left alone. Maybe it shouldn`t even have been questioned in retrospect because we saw that she hit that home run during the cross-examination.
GRACE: The jury sitting in stunned silence as all of this evidence pours from the witness stand. We are live in Orlando, taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Manner of death has been officially determined by Dr. G. as a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We actually passed the bag and skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Skull was located to the west, the northwest area of the log.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Placed it over the skull.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Chloroform was her babysitter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was an unfit mother.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She`s not a murderer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A red flag for homicide.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like appearance is an indicator of further decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Hair samples and hair samples.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one of these pieces represents the chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This peak here.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what the hell is going on.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Let me put it to you hypothetically that the body of a young child -- a beautiful little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body is very decomposed.
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The duct tape somewhere located on the lower half of this face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was stored in the trunk of that car for a period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flies were there. The larvae were there.
CINDY ANTHONY: The smell in the car was like something I had never --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three, four, five days.
CINDY ANTHONY: It was pretty strong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s atrocious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the trunk of that car, with that heat.
CINDY ANTHONY: Stunk so bad, you know how hot it`s been.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When a child is not reported immediately to authorities.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Why are you calling now? Why didn`t you call 31 days ago?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s something we look for foul play.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
The day quickly approaching of the day that Caylee went missing. It was June, three years ago, that her grandparents last see her leaving the home. This is how she was finally found. That following December.
Many news outlets are going to be showing you little Caylee`s skull and her bones. We will not be showing that here. Anything you see here will be pixilated.
Out to the lines, Cheryl in Michigan.
Hi, Cheryl. What`s your question?
CHERYL, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Yes, I have one quick question. If Caylee stood up in court and said that she killed her little girl, could we really believe her?
GRACE: Well, Cheryl, if it weren`t for the scientific evidence and the evidence the state has brought on, I would say no. If she told me the sky was blue, I would be sure that it was red. So you got a good point. No matter what she says, it`s going to be difficult to believe her, which leads me to the big question, is tot mom going to take the stand?
The state`s case is now winding down. We believe that most likely they`re going to bring on a botanist to testify about plant growth around and under Caylee`s remains. Possibly a tattoo artist. Maybe a few more witnesses. We know they`ve flown somebody in from out of state. They`re set to take the stand tomorrow.
Then the defense goes in full gear. If she takes the stand, it`s predicted she will be the last defense witness, but will she take the stand?
Unleash the lawyers. Jason Oshins, John Manuelian.
What about it, Oshins?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think she takes the stand. I mean that`s a -- that`s a huge gamble on the defense part in general. I think you try to work against what the prosecution set forth.
GRACE: Well, that is, of course --
OSHINS: Yes.
GRACE: That the sage advice, don`t take the stand.
OSHINS: Right.
GRACE: But in this case, Jose Baez has been doing everything completely backwards.
OSHINS: But that`s his job, Nancy, he`s got to work in that fashion. He`s got to use whatever he has to try and create some reasonable doubt within the jury pool.
GRACE: OK.
OSHINS: That`s the only way he`s going to go about it. But I don`t think she testifies.
GRACE: What about it, John Manuelian?
JOHN MANUELIAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My prediction is not only does she testify, Baez puts her on very early in the case. Remember, he committed during the opening statements to giving this elaborate story about what happened. He has to put her on the stand. Otherwise the jurors are going to say, why did he make a mention of all these things that Caylee did and didn`t do without backing it up?
GRACE: Yes, here`s the deal, Manuelian. They claim that brotherly and father George sexually molest her.
MANUELIAN: Right.
GRACE: So far they`ve asked George outright and he said no, and he was convincing. Nobody asked Lee Anthony. That means the defense has either got to call Lee Anthony, has got to break down and admit he molested his sister -- not going to happen, didn`t happen -- or she`s got to take the stand because if anybody else testifies to it, it`s hearsay. She`s got to take the stand and testify to that.
And also did you notice that there were big gaps in the opening statement that she says father George comes in holding the dripping dead body of her little girl, she says, daddy, help me, and he hides the body.
All right. Does that mean he, George Anthony, put duct tape on the child and left her in a pet cemetery?
You`ve got to explain, what do you mean he helped you? Did you go with him? Did you tell him what to do? Why was her body in your trunk and not George Anthony`s trunk?
So many questions were left unanswered in the opening statement. Who can answer them other than tot mom herself?
Out to the lines, Nicole in Georgia. Hi, Nicole. What`s your question.
NICOLE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy. My question is, I know the prosecution is trying to say or is saying that maybe duct tape was the murder weapon. But I was wondering, has anybody looked at the possibility of there being an accidental suffocation of the baby in the car, and maybe she was left in the car?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, OK. Nicole, here`s the deal. The defense has said that she drowned in the pool. OK. So in no way is there a suggestion of an accidental suffocation by either side. The jury would have to come up with that theory out of whole cloth.
Dr. Steven Kessler, consulting medical examiner, forensic pathologist, professor at University of South Carolina.
Doctor, thank you for being with us.
Dr. Kessler, one theory that has been out there from the get-go is that tot mom used hooch, homemade chloroform, as a -- where is Dr. Kessler? Let me see him.
As a babysitter, that she would put the baby in the car trunk, chloroform the baby, and then go out and party, maybe spend overnight, put duct tape on so the child wouldn`t cry out.
I don`t see how that`s an accidental death, but is that possible in this case?
DR. STEVEN KESSLER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA: She could have done it. I mean we have evidence of chloroform. But I think it would have killed the child.
Chloroform is a toxin. They are not used anymore for that reason. It kills the liver. She -- doing it over and over again would cause liver toxicity. It`s not a good drug for use -- to use for anesthesia. Just not a good drug to use.
GRACE: You know, Dr. Kessler, you just jarred my memory. It was way back, I recall, back in the `70s, it`s been almost 50 years, 40 years now, since chloroform was used. You know that`s when the guidelines came out, don`t use it. But prior to that, doctors were long adverse to using chloroform.
And also, Doctor, I wanted to ask you, Dr. G., that lady medical examiner that took the defense by storm, she said there were three reasons that she was convinced this was homicide, one was the delay in reporting. Two was the disposal of the body. Those are two very strong reasons.
Isn`t it true, Dr. Kessler, that you look at the circumstances surrounding the death, not just the body itself?
KESSLER: That is true. And in this case I could -- I`ve raised three children. I can`t see one of my kids missing for more than an hour where I wouldn`t get very concerned if I didn`t know where they were.
I`d be talking to everybody I knew, maybe even calling the police. You don`t let a kid just disappear at that age. It`s dangerous. Somebody could have taken them.
GRACE: To Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist, Florida Gulf State -- Gulf Coast University. The medical examiner has three reasons for classifying this as a homicide.
Weigh in, Heather.
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: Her three reasons were solid. And in the 15 years that I`ve been doing forensic anthropology, it rang true with nearly every case I`ve done that`s culminated in a homicide.
This little girl`s body was found close to a road, but yet at an area that was secluded. This tells me that whoever had her, her mother, had easy access to the area, could dump her body and hide her, and then left her in plastic bags, in a laundry bag, and then in addition we found the tape that was secured -- the mandible to the cranium.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies.
CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The front of the skull with duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The duct tape somewhere located on the lower half of this face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The outline of a heart appeared in one of the corners on the edge of that piece of duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you careful in handling the duct tape, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Closed containers, a suitcase or plastic bag, like this child was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The body of a young child was stored in the trunk of that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
CASEY ANTHONY: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Decomposition seen in the trunk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Oh, my god.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body was --
CASEY ANTHONY: They have nothing positive to say. They need to shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Little child right here, she is the victim in all of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct tape anywhere attached to that child`s face indication of a homicide.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee.
Center stage, Caylee herself, her remains. A stunned jury sits in silence as they hear evidence about a heart-shaped sticker placed directly over Caylee`s mouth, over duct tape that the state says covered the child`s mouth and nose. In fact, the state goes so far as to suggest, as to state the duct tape was the murder weapon.
We are taking your calls, but I want to go now to Paul Penzone, former sergeant with the Phoenix PD, child advocate.
Paul, the heart-shaped sticker comes into evidence, it is just like a heart-shipped sticker found in tot mom`s home. What does that say to you about who the killer is? That the killer would put duct tape over the baby`s mouth, then pick one of the child`s own stickers and put it over her mouth?
PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: I think it makes an obvious statement that there is a personal and emotional connection between the killer and the victim.
And here`s something I want to offer. If -- you know, some people are trying to say, what -- is it possible that maybe she had asphyxiated or passed away accidentally and then the mother went through this process, if that were the case, the first thing a mother is going to do if she had the tape over her mouth to keep her from crying is remove it to see if she was breathing to possibly give her CPR.
The fact that that tape stayed on her mouth tells me as an investigator that it was used to suppress her breathing and to take her life. Because otherwise it would not have stayed in that place. She would have removed it and tried to revive her child.
GRACE: You know, Paul, let me ask you another question. Now that we`re analyzing the evidence in this manner, you`re saying video that we have just received of Caylee. Look at her dancing in her little tutu.
Paul Penzone, you`re talking about the personal connection with the heart-shaped sticker. The defense theory is that George Anthony, the father, is the one, the grandfather, tot mom`s father, is the one that found Caylee floating accidentally in the pool, the family pool, that she must have wandered out there in the wee hours of the night, A, why didn`t she have on her pajamas?
And, B, do you really imagine George Anthony not calling 911, or putting duct tape over the baby`s mouth to make it look like a murder? And then putting the sticker on top of the duct tape?
PENZONE: It just seems to be a weak effort to find something, some other direction to point blame.
And let me tell you, I live in Arizona, and we see far too many child drownings here. I`ve investigated some myself and the first one to arrive on the scene. And the reason that 100 percent of the time someone calls is because you never know how long a child has been in the water.
So when a person goes outside, they may know how long the child has been missing from heir sight, but not if the child has been in the water for a long duration. So the first thing that occurs is they try to bring the child out and revive them, and that either they or someone else nearby calls 911 immediately, because they believe there`s a possibility there`s still some life left in the child, and they want to revive that.
No one conscientiously thinks this child is already gone, I can`t bring that one back. Especially an experienced law enforcement officer. So I just don`t find that to be a credible defense.
GRACE: To Michelle Golland -- Dr. Golland, psychologist and expert.
Michelle, what do you make of the killer, a cold blooded killer, putting a heart-shaped sticker on Caylee`s mouth or the theory that George Anthony, the grandfather, did this?
I don`t see it because for weeks, for months afterwards he`s out, going to New York, going to Puerto Rico, following up on tips Caylee`s alive, spending thousands of dollars trying to find her, driving thousands of miles in the family car, dragging a billboard of Caylee`s picture and a tip line behind him.
Why would he do all that if he knew she was dead?
MICHELLE GOLLAND, PSYCHOLOGIST, EXPERT ON MOMLOGIC.COM: You know, it`s really hard to tell, Nancy, exactly, you know, who is going to come out in the sense of, is it really true that it was a drowning? Or was it also the chloroform situation where she died because of the chloroform and then Caylee on her own -- I`m sorry, Casey on her own tried to cover it up.
But the idea that the killer would use a heart sticker is because of the emotional connection, the desire to express some sort of love, even though clearly we -- I`m seeing anti-social tendencies and a lot of other personality disorders.
GRACE: You know what, Michelle? The way it strikes me is, like, when you`re getting your little girl ready and you add barrettes to her hair and then you think now she`s just perfect.
GOLLAND: Right.
GRACE: Sticking that heart-shaped sticker on to that duct tape should chill of those jurors.
Out to the lines, Gwen in Maryland.
Hi, Gwen. What`s your question?
GWEN, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Yes, hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
GWEN: Good. I was calling, do you think maybe it was both the chloroform also with the tape that she put her to sleep with the chloroform first and then taped her face with the tape, and then put the heart sticker on there, like when she wake up, she`s thinking that Caylee can pull it off herself, but she -- no, she wound up dying?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Jean Casarez, is there anything in the evidence that suggests that the duct tape was put around the child`s mouth and over her hair in the belief that the little girl would take it off her own mouth and out of her own hair?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": No, nothing in the evidence. But, Nancy, you bring about such an important question. If the prosecution theory is that chloroform was applied to the little girl and then she died, is it an accident? Could a jury say this is an accident or will jurors say it`s aggravated child abuse?
GRACE: Exactly. Which would be felony murder, a felony in which a death occurred.
Quick break, we are live taking your calls.
Wesley Glenn Methodist home, a loving home for the handicapped, desperately needing to raise funds. Even though the state slashed the funding, Wesley keeping handicapped residents that can no longer afford to be there. The home is sinking into the red, but still refuses to uproot the residents or kick them out.
If you can help, go to wesleyglennministries.com. Click on "Capital Campaign" Let`s help the handicapped that need us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Father`s Day is about loving our fathers and give them respect. But when we say, I`m a Father`s Day baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He took me to the lake when I was little, to the ball games. He`s a good dad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was a daddy`s girl. I kind of got what I wanted. I can fish, I can bait my own hook, and scale clean the fish. My dad taught me and my grandfather. So --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Computer searches for neck breaking --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, key word search.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And how to make chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Air samples and hair samples.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one of these peaks represents the chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This peak here.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what the hell is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Who has her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zanny the nanny is really Xanax.
CASEY ANTHONY: Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For all the people in Florida, why would you choose me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She drugged the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Done a keyword search for chloroform. Is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So she could go out and party.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Win her over with chloroform.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Rory O`Neill, Metro Networks, joining us.
For this testimony where we saw the re-enactment and we also saw Caylee`s bones, I`m assuming that George and Cindy Anthony were not in the courtroom?
RORY O`NEILL, REPORTER, METRO NETWORKS: No, they weren`t in the courtroom, they weren`t subjected actually to looking at that, which is really controversial because Casey`s photos stayed in that animation the whole time. So it`s a smiling, glowing picture of Casey while she presumably watches her daughter`s head turn into a skull with duct tape on it.
I think if there`s anything inflammatory about that tape that could be a legal problem for the prosecution, it`s the fact that the mother`s face wasn`t cropped out of the photo.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Stephen Castner, 27, Cedarburg, Wisconsin, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Left studies at U of Wisconsin to serve. A computer wiz, loved reading so much, books often took priority over sleeping and eating. Leaves behind parents Kate and Steve.
Stephen Castner, American hero.
Thanks to our guest, but especially to you for being with us.
And happy birthday to Coach Joan Hudgins. She is with her great grandchildren Lexi and Xander.
And happy birthday to Harris Emerson. A Navy vet, married to wife Doris 64 years, three children, eight grandchildren. Later they`re still going strong. Here his pictured with our superstar Dee.
Happy 93rd, Harris Emerson.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be live at the Orlando courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee. And until then, good night, friend.
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