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Dr. Drew
Riveting Testimony in Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 14, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
The prosecution`s last witnesses have taken the stand. I`m laying out today`s riveting testimony in the Casey Anthony murder trial -- forensic hair samples, an incriminating tattoo, and a heart-shaped piece in the puzzle, stickers in Casey`s room similar to the ones found near Caylee`s body. Also, tearful testimony from Cindy almost three years to the day that she last saw her granddaughter alive.
Let`s get this figured out.
Tonight, Cindy Anthony takes the stand. She has an emotional reaction, as anyone would, as she in fact ends up tightening the noose around her own daughter`s neck.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Casey Anthony trial resumes today. This could be the last day of the prosecution`s case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy Anthony, moments ago, became emotional when she was shown a picture, and Caylee is wearing the little pink shirt.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: The first time I had ever seen that shirt was during my deposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard that FBI examiner talk about the residue of a heart-shaped sticker on the Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a sheet of metallic red heart-shaped stickers. This particular item was located in Casey Anthony`s bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy cow! Talking about a big finish, this is huge.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Well, I wonder if you all feel the way I do as you watch Cindy Anthony up there. She sort of makes sense not only cognitively -- I mean, what she`s saying makes sense -- but her emotional reactions make sense. Think about it. If you were in that situation, how would you behave?
I think, myself, I would be shattered, I would be a mess, I`d just be overwhelmed the way Cindy seems to be. Casey I don`t understand. I don`t care how much somebody had coached me, I don`t think I -- see what you think about this -- I don`t think I could have that kind of a demeanor that we`ve seen with her. And because she seems so emotionless, all of us just project all of our own sort of explanations, our own feelings on to her.
Now, Cindy we see her as anxious, overwhelmed and tearful. The question, though, is will she be the key witness that helps convict her own daughter?
When you see her leave the stand today -- I don`t know if you caught this -- she couldn`t even make eye contact with Casey. Now, I wonder if that`s because she kind of knows this testimony could be the nail in the coffin for Casey, or the other thing I thought of is she`s just so damn angry at Casey for throwing everyone under the bus like this.
Again, it`s fascinating to try to figure out. But more than anything, Casey, sitting there so detached -- we`ve had people on this show say it`s because she`s emotionally detached from abuse. I don`t know about that. It doesn`t look that way to me.
Now, was today a slam-dunk for the prosecution? Cindy takes the stand. And also just hours before they`re expected to rest their case, they show the jury their ace in the hole. It it`s a photo of heart-shaped stickers that the investigators found in Casey Anthony`s bedroom.
Remember these? They were found near the skull, and they`re the same stickers.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DRANE BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Are you familiar with whether or not there were heart stickers located in the bedroom of Casey Anthony during the execution of that search warrant on December 20th of 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, there were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Remember this? The heart-shaped residue, now we see it on the Duct tape covering Caylee`s mouth. It`s also the same sticker that was found near her body.
It`s sad. It`s just so sad. I mean, whatever happened here, somebody did that, somebody had some tender feelings. But, wow.
This sticker is the closest link to Casey other than the Duct tape on Caylee`s skull. The heart stickers that you`re seeing there right next to me were actually found in Casey`s room.
Joining me now, Andrea Lyon, a former defense attorney on Casey Anthony`s dream team, as well as host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith.
Ryan, big developments today. Give us a lowdown.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Well, the biggest development I think of the day was that the prosecution technically rested its case. They`re going to really rest tomorrow at 9:00, early in the morning.
But the last witness on the stand was this man Bobby Williams, who was the tattoo artist at the tattoo parlor, tattooed "Bella Vita" on Casey`s shoulder, standing for "good life." But he mentioned that she signed off on this tattoo, wanted this tattoo, and this was about 16, 17 days into her being missing.
He said she made another appointment on the 15th of July. That was the day that Cindy discovered that Caylee had been missing.
So it was all about her mental state, in addition to the evidence testimony, about her mental state, what she was like in those moments during that search, and how the prosecution points out she wasn`t mourning. And that`s key to end testimony in that way. Very strong ending by the prosecution.
PINSKY: Andrea, what do you make of that testimony? You`ve been on the record saying that you think she is not guilty. Help us understand what your perspective is.
ANDREA LYON, FMR. DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, my perspective, of course, is a year old, because I no longer am on her team, and I do have limitations on what I can talk about because I still owe her a duty of care. But there`s a big difference between not liking Casey Anthony`s behavior or not understanding it, and having proof that this was even a homicide, let alone that Casey Anthony deliberately and intentionally killed her child.
There has been no testimony that, in fact, it`s a homicide. There`s an opinion that the circumstances surrounding finding of the body that Dr. Garavaglia thinks that it`s a homicide, but she can`t rule out that it could be an accident and a cover-up afterwards.
And so you have a prosecution that is resting very much on everyone`s condemnation of Casey Anthony`s behavior and the assumption that if she behaved wrong, if she didn`t report her daughter missing, if she isn`t expressing emotion the way that you would or I would, that, therefore, she must have killed her daughter. That is what the jury is being told by the prosecution in one character attack after another.
And if you look at the evidence objectively, it`s a very different matter. But it`s very difficult to look at the evidence objectively, particularly in the heat and the light and the mob atmosphere of this trial.
PINSKY: Well, and also, let`s keep in mind that what I think the thing that people first respond to in Casey, that sort of -- she condemns herself, is with the kind of parenting they saw, the kinds of behavior after Caylee was gone, and then the unbelievable lying. So it`s sort of -- it`s hard to make her a sympathetic character, is it not?
LYON: Well, Dr. Pinsky, I`m going to ask you a question out of your expertise. You know that people who are very damaged, particularly people who are victims of abuse, often exhibit behavior that`s difficult to understand.
They confabulate, they create even whole other characters, whole other personalities. You know that that`s true. And so the fact that her behavior is inexplicable to us, that we condemn it, that we don`t like it, that we can`t understand -- you know, I`m a mother. If my daughter was missing for 31 minutes, 31 seconds, I`d go crazy, let alone 31 days.
And I`m sure most people feel that way, and that`s understandable. But there`s a big difference between that and proving a deliberate, intentional, death-qualified murder.
PINSKY: Well, Andrea, let me first answer your question.
And Ryan, I`m going to give you a chance to sort of give us the last word here when I`m done.
But, in my experience, when people behave in this sort of manner, it`s because of chronic, severe, ongoing, overwhelming sexual abuse, physical abuse, over long periods of time. Then you see some behavior that could be pretty problematic. And even then, not always, not like this necessarily. But then it starts to make sense.
So they`re going to have to show some evidence not just that we`ve seen, which is, yes, as I think about it, yes, maybe my brother did something to me. Or maybe -- no, no, no. I`ve never seen that result in this sort of behavior.
Andrea, you`re going to stay with us.
Ryan, last words?
SMITH: Dr. Drew, I think key here is, this is a circumstantial case, so they are building much of their case off of the lies that she told and how she said she was searching when it seems like she wasn`t. And how can you believe her now and the accident theory?
But there`s still physical evidence -- hairs in the trunk that may tie Caylee to Casey. Also the heart stickers, things found at the scene.
It`s set up to say, if not Casey, who? Who did this? And allow the jury to come to that place of, we can`t see any other option but Casey. So I do think it`s a strong case because it`s both circumstantial evidence and a lot of physical evidence to boot.
PINSKY: Thank you, Ryan.
Cindy on the stand. Caylee`s little body stuffed in a laundry basket. Was it the same bag Cindy kept in her garage? More of Cindy`s emotional testimony. Will it be the nail in Casey`s coffin?
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BURDICK: Did you have an item such as that in you your home in 2008?
ANTHONY: Yes.
BURDICK: And where was the last place that you saw this item?
ANTHONY: We had recently removed it from Caylee`s bedroom. We had stored her stuffed animals in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: I remember Caylee`s teddy bear, Teddy, was missing.
BURDICK: Did Caylee also have a blanket with Winnie the Pooh on it?
ANTHONY: Yes.
BURDICK: Do you recall during that time frame noticing that the blanket was missing?
ANTHONY: No. Prior to that time frame it was missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just so sad and dramatic, the testimony from Casey`s mom, Cindy Anthony.
Today, the devastated grandma testified about Caylee`s Winnie the Pooh blanket, laundry bags, hair, and more. Cindy cried when looking at photos of her dead granddaughter. Who wouldn`t? And she was visibly shaken when questioned about Duct tape.
Was the tape the Anthonys used to hang Caylee`s missing poster, the same tape Caylee`s killer may have used to suffocate her?
Also, Caylee`s body was found stuffed inside a canvas laundry bag. Today, Cindy testified she owned a bag just like that and kept it in the garage, where, if I remember, that`s where the tape was, too.
Attorney Robin Sax is here. And back with me is Andrea Lyon, Casey`s former defense attorney.
Andrea, you know, it`s funny. When I was talking to you during that last block, you made me take a beat and think, you know, more than anything, you`re right that we all seem to be getting very gratified by the mob mentality we`ve developed towards Casey. It`s hard not to, I`ve got to say.
And I keep wondering, is the defense going to stand up and come up with some far-flung explanation that takes this in an entirely different direction? Is that what we`re to expect here, or are they just going to chip away at the evidence that we`ve got?
LYON: I can`t answer that question. I`m not on the defense team anymore. I know what was said in the opening statement just like you do, and we`re all going to have to wait and see what they intend to present.
But the point that I`m trying to make here is that the evidence of murder isn`t there. The evidence that she committed murder isn`t there.
There`s plenty of evidence of suspicious behavior that most people find inexplicable and detestable, but that doesn`t mean that she committed murder. And it`s very much like Camu`s "The Stranger," is it not? She`s not behaving properly; therefore, she`s a killer.
PINSKY: My understanding is you had some understanding of what happened to the dead body in the trunk. I found the fact that there was a dead body there for three days so overwhelming to even think about. Was there something more to that that we need to know?
LYON: Well, first of all, I don`t know how much proof they have that, in fact, the body was in the trunk. I mean, allowing in this sort of fake science that Mr. Vass, somebody, made up about it`s a machine that can sniff air and tell whether a dead body has been in there into evidence when it`s never been peer reviewed or tested or anything else is just quite surprising to me as an officer of the court, that such testimony would be allowed in.
But there is a lot of problems with the evidence, not the least of which is that it is very likely -- there`s certainly plenty of evidence to show that`s in the public record that the body was tampered with or moved in some kind of way. In which case, a lot of what Dr. Garavaglia and other people have had to say about the condition of her remains becomes irrelevant if Mr. Kronk (ph) moved it.
And there`s all kinds of talk and speculation about the searches on the computer that was a family computer that anyone could use for chloroform. But, you know, Cindy Anthony said in her deposition that she did that search. I mean, there`s a lot of things here where there are problems with the evidence. I`m not telling you that the prejudice against her isn`t going to carry the day.
PINSKY: OK.
Robin, what do you read into all of that?
ROBIN SAX, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Well, I`m about to jump out of my chair right now.
PINSKY: Robin is a prosecuting attorney.
So have at it. Go ahead.
SAX: No. I mean, it cannot be a coincidence that there were searches for chloroform, that there was the smell of death from the car, that Caylee Anthony`s body is found so close to the home, that there`s a heart-shaped sticker, that there`s a Winnie the Pooh blanket.
PINSKY: What you would say is Casey is involved. You would say that based on that evidence. Right?
SAX: Based on that evidence, you can definitely have her involved, sure.
PINSKY: You can say that -- involved. We have her involved. But do we have her murdering the kid, is the question. And can they substantiate or can they back up this notion of being an accident and then the bizarre behavior that followed was from abuse?
SAX: Well, that would have all worked out fine and dandy had they not come out with this crazy drowning, sexual abuse case that they now have put -- the defense has put out there.
And so, Andrea, I`m curious to know -- now they`ve put themselves in the position of having to prove a case, when they could have just poked holes in the prosecution`s case. I don`t get that.
Why are they going there?
PINSKY: Andrea?
LYON: I can`t comment. It`s not appropriate for me to comment on what the defense is doing now. I`m not a part of the defense and I`m not privy to their thinking.
I know what you know. But I do know a lot about the holes in this case. And, as I said, there`s a difference between a suspicion, a detestation of behavior, and proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
PINSKY: All right. Let me ask something else then. I`m going to interrupt you.
LYON: I ask this question --
PINSKY: I`m going to ask you a question.
LYON: OK. Interrupt me.
PINSKY: Should she take the stand? Andrea, should we put Casey on the stand given that she has had detestable behavior, it`s hard to defend her as a person? Should she be on the stand to give us the story?
LYON: That`s a very difficult question for every criminal defense lawyer. If you don`t put a client on the stand, the jury gets angry at you for doing that, because they think, well, if it were me, I would get up on the stand.
If you do put the client up on the stand, then everything collapses down to, do we believe this defendant or not? It`s a very difficult decision.
I don`t know what the dense is going to do. And in every single case I`ve ever tried it`s been a very difficult decision, particularly when, as here, they`re asking for the death penalty.
PINSKY: All right. And particularly it must be when the subject is not a very likeable person and has no credibility either now.
So, Robin, you told me a few minutes ago that you like Jose Baez, you like sort of the way he fumbles through things.
Do you think he should put her on the stand?
SAX: You know what? I think that Jose Baez would do a great benefit for the jury to put himself asking questions, and he could make her very likeable.
PINSKY: Could he?
SAX: And he`s so kind of fuddy-duddy himself.
PINSKY: Is that possible, to make Casey likeable?
SAX: I think that he is so fuddy-duddy and dorky, that people will gravitate to him being just a regular guy. And his regularity could rub off on her. The only problem is, is that what she`s going to be faced with is one lie after another.
PINSKY: Have you read the interview -- interrogation? It`s just unbelievable, the lies. It`s really phenomenal.
SAX: It`s outrageous. And it`s going to be a week long of lies. So it would be highly, highly risky, in my opinion, to put her on the stand, but I don`t think he has a choice.
PINSKY: More because of the cross-examination, right?
SAX: Because of the cross-examination.
PINSKY: And what are they going to do to her?
SAX: Well, they`re going to have to acknowledge every lie, every inconsistency, every manner, and everything that we`ve seen in this case. I mean, that`s been the one thing about this case, is Florida has given us so much information in advance, that we as a society know that it`s the best thing to keep her off.
PINSKY: The sunshine laws in the Sunshine State shines a bright light of scrutiny onto all this material and creates this mob mentality, which I am as much a part of as anybody now. So here we are.
SAX: But it will be a dark day in Florida when she`s convicted.
PINSKY: Why?
SAX: Because she`s going to get convicted, because this is not aliens came out from outer space and killed Caylee.
PINSKY: Why is it going to be a dark day then?
SAX: It`s going to be a dark day for her.
PINSKY: Yes, for her. Maybe justice is being served for the little girl.
SAX: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Andrea, thank you so much for joining me.
LYON: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: I do appreciate it. I have to go, unfortunately. I hope to have you back. We`ll finish this conversation and flush it out to the extent that you can.
LYON: OK.
PINSKY: Next, I`m taking your calls.
And later, we`ll lay out the defense of Casey Anthony and how they have done it.
We`ll be back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE JOHN JORDAN, NINTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT COURT OF FLORIDA: An Orange County grand jury has issued an indictment, and a capias has been issued on the following charges -- first-degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and four counts of providing false information to law enforcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: -- flies can be found in?
NEAL HASKELL, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST: Garbage.
BAEZ: Garbage. And it they were found in -- and they were collected from a garbage bag.
HASKELL: It says "trash bag."
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was an interesting moment in the courtroom. And the voice you heard there was Neal Haskell. He is the insect expert who really cut through to me, if we are to believe what he said. He said he found flies related to decomposition in the trunk of the car, and that that body had been there for sure for three days.
In the meantime, many of you have written to us. One of your questions asked about the many aspects of this murder trial. So let us get to the phones.
We have Tiffany in Texas.
Tiffany?
TIFFANY, TEXAS: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Tiffany?
TIFFANY: I was wondering if people often have are psychotic breaks after tragic events. So, in other words, could Casey`s behavior after Caylee`s death, the partying and such, be a symptom of a post-trauma psychotic break?
PINSKY: You`re tossing around some very specific terms. I would say let`s say no to psychosis, although that`s sort of an inaccurate way of looking at it. But what we will often see is acting out behaviors after traumatic experience, as people try to manage overwhelming feelings.
And sexual acting out, and drug and alcohol use, aggressive behaviors, those are very common. That might explain some of this. I think we`re going to hear some of that from the defense.
Let`s go to Susan in San Diego.
What`s up, Susan?
SUSAN, SAN DIEGO: Dr. Drew --
SUSAN: -- if Casey were to have planned the murder, don`t you think she would have known what to do with the body? The child OD`d on chloroform, Casey panicked. And after three to five days, she realized she had to do something. So first she thought about burying it in the back yard, and then she realized she`d have to put it in the woods.
PINSKY: Susan, that little scenario you painted is actually my theory as well. And Zanny the nanny may have actually been Xanax that she used to take care of the child, ran out of money for that, switched to chloroform, which is cheap.
I like that theory as to what might have happened. In my head though, I get this feeling that she wouldn`t have done that alone. There would have been an accomplice in all this, too.
But if it had been a cover-up involving George, he would have known what to do. Wouldn`t he? He`s a policeman. That`s where that part doesn`t fit in what the defense is alleging.
Let`s go to a Facebook question.
Laurie writes, "I don`t think sociopathy comes on suddenly. Do you think if someone examined Casey`s behavior from early on, behavioral problems could have been diagnosed?"
Yes, that is something I`ve been wondering about from the beginning here, why they haven`t been building a case that there had been a lifelong pattern of something that helps us understand how she got to the point where she is today. But the prosecution did none of that. So, yes, absolutely, sociopathy is a lifelong disorder.
Let`s go back to the phones.
Tracey in Texas, go ahead.
TRACEY, TEXAS: Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Tracey?
TRACEY: Being a survivor of a sociopath, I still find it difficult sometimes to wrap my mind around their behavior and why they do what they do.
PINSKY: Yes.
TRACEY: The only advantage that I have today is that I can spot one from a mile away. How is a jury going to see or understand that without truly grasping the concepts of sociopathy?
PINSKY: Yes. And again, we`ve tossed around some terms. We`ve tried to be very clear in what they all mean.
Sociopaths are very charming people, and they really don`t care that you have feelings. You`re there just as an object for their use, for their exploitation.
And yes, sociopaths can be very unpleasant to be around. It`s difficult for them to spot. For some people, they only know it because it`s somebody that they`re really attracted to and they enjoy being around, because sociopaths can be a lot of fun. But they are very, very dangerous.
And you`re right. Your point is well taken.
Now, we read all of your tweets, all of them, so keep them coming @DrDrewHLN, as we continue to focus on this case. And soon we`re going to hear the defense.
So that will start up hopefully in a couple of days.
More after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Judgment day for Casey Anthony is a little closer. The state apparently wrapped up testimony today as Cindy Anthony returned to the stand for the prosecution. They`re expected to rest Wednesday. The judge denied a motion for mistrial. Casey`s fate is now in the hands of her attorney. The defense of Casey Anthony is likely to begin on Thursday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): And later, we`ll take a look at the many faces of Casey. I don`t know. I keep just seeing one face with Casey, but we`ll look at some of the things she`s done in court at least. Today`s testimony did not farewell for Casey and the defense, but could it be her own lies that really do her in? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: I don`t know what else to do anymore. If I knew where she was, if something had happened --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, let me ask you this.
CASEY ANTHONY: I would have admitted it a long time ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think -- do you believe thinking about more lies to tell us well?
CASEY ANTHONY: This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time, but I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this. I can`t even swallow right now. Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTOHONY`S MOTHER: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. I don`t know what`s going on. My entire life has been taken from me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: We are back with Attorney Andrea Lyon. She is a former member of Casey Anthony`s defense team and former prosecutor, Robin Sax. So, Robin, first to you, is the fact that she is such an unlikable person enough to get her convicted?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, you know, I actually have a view on the other side. I think she`s a pretty likeable person. I mean, I think there`s things that she`s done that are very unlikable.
PINSKY: Check your Twitter this afternoon and see how people respond to that.
SAX: Well, no, but she`s pretty. She looks like a regular person.
PINSKY: But you know as well as I do that doesn`t mean anything. That doesn`t mean anything.
SAX: But what they aren`t -- but they`re going to like her there, and they`re going to dislike what she`s done and that`s going to be enough of a conflict. The prosecution needs to show, why is it that this mom killed this beautiful little baby? And they`re going to have a hard time reconciling that person on the stand or that person next to defense counsel is capable of doing something so heinous to their own child.
PINSKY: Well, Andrea, you had some insight into why they went for the death penalty here, and you know, there was a specific sort of strategy, no?
ANDREA LYON, FMR. CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that there was. I mean, ordinarily, when one asks for the death penalty is for somebody with a terrible criminal record or has committed, you know, a heinous double homicide or that sort of thing. There`s no history here of prior child abuse or prior violence, and so, it`s quite unusual to ask for the death penalty, but it gives the prosecution an advantage. That is, everyone who is against the death penalty cannot sit as a matter of law on this case.
That is, they`re excused for cause by the judge. And, there`s this process effect, that is, the jury is asked questions before they`ve heard one witness about whether they could impose the death penalty, which makes it feel as though the trial is kind of a formality, and that all this is about is whether she gets the death penalty. And so, you end up with a highly conviction prone, pro-prosecution, pro-police jury, you know, in the most serious of cases, which is why we have seen so many exonerations, in particular, in death penalty cases.
PINSKY: So many exonerations? I thought they were prone to convict.
LYON: They are, but what will happen is, later, the person gets sentenced to death and then, later, DNA or something else comes to exonerate them because it`s just -- it`s very difficult to presume innocence.
PINSKY: Oh, after the fact. I see. I see.
LYON: Yes. After the fact. After the fact. And so, what I`m saying is, in the most serious cases, you have the least fair jury, the most biased jury. And, of course, you have this awful, you know, feeling. You know, you have this beautiful little girl who`s no longer with us, and it is hard to reconcile.
I have to agree with your other guest here that it`s hard to reconcile the loving way in which Casey interacted with Caylee and what a healthy, happy girl she seemed to be with someone who would commit such a horrible crime just because she wanted to party. She was kind of able to do that with Caylee alive.
PINSKY: Well, that`s right. I`ve treated, you know, 10,000 addicts, Robin, and some of them had kids, some didn`t. Some did a horrible parenting, some did a good job parenting, but none of them killed the kids. So, how do you go from partying mom to murdering mom if you`re the prosecutor?
SAX: Well, from the prosecution perspective, you don`t need to explain how you went from partying mom to murder mom. I mean, that snap, that final stage that ends up in murder is the ultimate, most horrific act that happened here.
PINSKY: You think it was an accident here.
SAX: Well, I think that there`s an argument that there could have been an accident here. I think that all of the chloroform and all of the behaviors before and after seem to negate it with the lie after lie. It makes it hard to be sympathetic to any sort of accident, and also, the most crucial jury instruction we`re going to hear in this case is that who is (ph) materially false in one area can be distrusted in anything they say later on. So, when Casey takes the stand --
PINSKY: When? Do you think she is going to?
SAX: I think she has to, and I think she`s going to bully her lawyers into doing it.
PINSKY: What`s the bet? Let`s put a bet down.
SAX: Dinner.
PINSKY: Dinner? You got it. All right. Fair enough. Let`s take a look, though, before we make our date, at the jaw-dropping defense in their opening statements, which we all are very familiar with. Let`s take a look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This child at eight years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Nothing`s wrong. That will help you understand why no one knew that her child was dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Andrea, if not Casey, who are the key players in the defense`s witness lineup?
LYON: I really can`t comment about that. I don`t know who they`re going to call.
PINSKY: Oh, come on now!
SAX: Roy Kronk.
LYON: I can`t -- well, I assume that they`re going to call Roy Kronk since the prosecution seemed to be afraid to do so.
PINSKY: Yes.
LYON: And because -- so, I would assume that they`re going to do that, but I don`t know. He certainly is a very big hole in the prosecution`s case, that they`re leading there, because they don`t dare put him on the stand. So, I would assume so, but I don`t know.
PINSKY: Are there going to be --
LYON: Sorry. I can`t give you a better prediction than that.
PINSKY: All right. Let me ask this. You challenged me as mental health professional who works with abuse survivors and what not to sort of, you know, gives opine about whether or not this behavior is reasonable based on what they`re claiming. Is that the kind of thing we`re going to see?
LYON: Based on the opening statement, I would assume that that is the kind of thing you`re going to see, but, as I said, I`m not a member of the defense team anymore, and I`m just guessing like you are, I`m afraid, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: One last question. Would they do any formal testing on Casey? You know, there`s neuropsychiatric testing to do, this quantitative analysis, have they done that?
LYON: I don`t know.
PINSKY: Would you do that?
SAX: Oh, I`m sure that they`ve done it, and if it was good and it had positive results, we would have heard about it in the opening statements.
PINSKY: Interesting. Robin, thank you for joining me. And Andrea -- Andrea, I`ve got to go. I know you always feel like you want to say more. We`ll bring you back. We all have more to say, and we will continue to do it as we look at this case, and then, day after day try to figure it out like you guys at home.
When we come back, the many faces of Casey Anthony. And later, a member of what we`re calling my jury. She flew from like the northwest ordinance, from the upper Midwest to Orlando to watch the trial in person. Wow. We`re going to check that out, and we`re going to talk to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: In the report, you indicate that Q-62 from Q-64 had no fingerprints, whatsoever?
ELIZABETH FONTAINE, FORENSIC PRINT EXAMINER: That is correct.
BAEZ: And this is including your thorough examination of each piece backwards and forwards, correct?
FONTAINE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions, and I`d like to sincerely apologize to Amy. I wish I would have been a better friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Thank you. Anything else?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: If she gets up on the stand, I think we`re going to see more of that. Boy, everyone is fascinated by Casey. There`s something we just can`t -- you know, as I sit here and sort of interview my guests, look at tape and share with all of you here, we`re just trying to figure her out. She`s hard to read. I mean, it looks like she`s been coached repeatedly to kind of stay blank if she sits there in court, though, you know, we see her laugh, we see her kind of cry. I don`t know.
I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again. This whole experience is kind of like a car crash where you can`t look away. And tonight, we`re still trying to figure everything out. Joining me is body language expert, Patti Wood and still with me, we welcome back Robin Sax, former prosecutor. Patti, why do you think Casey Anthony is so mysterious to many?
PATTI WOOD, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: I think it`s because we typically look at behavior and see what would be normal in these circumstances, and we see her behavior as so far from normal, as someone who`s lost their child. So, when we see a lack of facial expression or tears not when they`re talking about what happened to her daughter but when they`re talking about what might happen to her as a result of this trial, we`re baffled. We can`t understand it, and we judge it.
PINSKY: You know, it`s funny. I have kind of a weird -- I have denial. I like don`t want to believe that it`s what I think I`m looking at. It won`t get through to me. It`s like, well, there must be a better explanation than psychopathy. That`s a hard thing for me to get my head around. All right. Let`s look at Casey watching her mother testify about the baby doll. Watch her eyes in this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Caylee`s baby doll, her favorite doll, her favorite doll, was in the car seat like it was sitting where Caylee would have sat. And I noticed Caylee`s backpack in the trunk of the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Patti, you`re a body language expert. Interpret what we just saw.
WOOD: Well, here you see a slight bit of sadness, but I`m very familiar with this piece of tape, because throughout, her mother`s testimony, quite often, there was a look of contempt on Casey`s face. The brows would be down focused, the forehead pooched over, the mouth pinched up in distaste. Here we see just a slight hint of sadness for the very first time during her mother`s testimony.
PINSKY: Robin, you disagree with that?
SAX: Yes. I don`t think I see much sadness. I think that we are seeing someone who is painfully trying to show sadness but is actually looking like she could care less and that she`s bothered. It doesn`t seem like there`s enough emotion.
PINSKY: But here`s the craziness about this case, guys, is that what I see, I see disassociation. I literally wouldn`t be surprised if she were to tell me, you know, during that testimony, I was out of body floating over my head. I didn`t know where I was.
WOOD: I absolutely agree. Yes, well, her personality changes so radically within even the same person on the stand`s testimony. Her personality changes from contempt to anger to absolutely stone-faced blank. And that, to me, is a signal nonverbally of her ability to disassociate.
PINSKY: OK. So, disassociation, though, would go to the defense`s theory of her being a trauma survivor, have been victimized to some way. Are they going to use that, do you think? Or Robin, would they`ve been used how she behaves in court or something to --
SAX: I think it`s a very scary territory to start going in and looking at how she is behaving in court, because otherwise, they`re going to have to explain so many different emotions and lack of emotions.
PINSKY: All right. But the point here -- all of us, three different opinions, each kind of have three different takes on who we were seeing here. And I just -- my thing is that even if it`s all coached as artificial, I don`t think I could have been this good at it. Do you, Robin? Patti, could you have been this play (ph)?
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I would have been so overwhelmed. Well, maybe, I would have disassociated. I would have been like her, just check out -- Patti.
WOOD: There`s this other aspect that I call the timing of the tears. Again, our expectation is a mother, when she hears about what happened to her daughter, would cry. In this case, Casey cries when they talk about things that might happen to her or when her behavior is called into question.
PINSKY: Exactly. Yes. To me, by the way, that is the most damning of all the observations.
WOOD: Yes, absolutely.
PINSKY: Because it turns out, if somebody is a psychopath or a sociopath, that is when they have feelings, which is when their reality crushes in on them and coming to terms with it is ahead, they see what`s ahead, and they get upset.
SAX: Well, and the corollary, let`s not forget those pictures of her partying in the bar. Let`s not forget those pictures during the middle of the time Caylee is missing, you compare those pictures during that time to what you`re seeing there, and it doesn`t seem plausible that she had nothing to do with Caylee`s murder.
PINSKY: All right. Listen to this. We`re going to listen to Casey as she hears her mom`s call to 911. Pay attention to the voice. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know who has her?
CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What vehicle was stolen?
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s a 1990 Pontiac Sunfire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, that`s Casey`s voice there. I think it was the same call where Cindy called and was so hysterical, I mean, as anybody would be. Now, Patti, you`ve said in Casey`s case, you`ve heard more vocal emphasis on the phone with cops.
WOOD: Yes.
PINSKY: Maybe, you know, describing a missing car or something than her daughter`s disappearance.
WOOD: Yes, and I`ve listened to a lot of 911 tapes as in terms of looking at -- ends up happening in a trial, and in this case, her voice has very little variation, very little tension. And then, there`s a big vocal emphasis later on in that call when she talks about her car being gone. That`s when we hear emotion. That`s when we hear her being upset, when she talks about the car, not about her child.
PINSKY: Oh, my god. See, that --
SAX: That`s chilling.
PINSKY: It`s chilling. And that`s the stuff that when any of us watch or hear -- you know, we were talking to her defense attorney earlier, and you know, the mob mentality and she`s being condemned in the public court of opinion, but when you hear stuff like that, my insides turn, I want to vomit, I get disgusted. I get a chill feeling. Now, that is in contradistinction to when I watch Cindy, for instance.
Now, Cindy had a completely different reaction. That`s Casey`s mom. Watch Cindy. We see her in court today. Now, Patti, as you watch this (INAUDIBLE) on Cindy?
WOOD: I haven`t seen this little bit of testimony. When I watched her in court when she was under oath about the 911 call, what I saw was absolute what I call in integrity. In other words, her voice, her body language and what she was saying were all a match, all in alignment, all in synchrony that speaks to the person being honest and really revealing the truth.
PINSKY: And I would say she was shattered, too, wouldn`t you?
WOOD: Absolutely shattered.
PINSKY: Emotionally shattered. Yes. Shattered.
WOOD: And watching Casey watch her mom being shattered and showing contempt on her face at her mother being shattered was so disturbing. Absolutely disturbing.
SAX: And you can`t say that she never learned how to have emotion in the home when your own mother is right up there crying and showing emotion.
PINSKY: Literally, I`ve asked this a couple of times in this show, whether Casey had a head injury history or something. You know, something that would explain completely out of context of her family system, even though, there`s issues of dysfunction or what not there. We don`t know. We really don`t know. Maybe, she had a head injury as the part of her brain where that stuff works isn`t operating.
SAX: Definitely some sort of injury in her head, I would agree.
PINSKY: Whether it was victimization or whether it was a genuine actual mechanical head injury, it seems like something. I mean, just the parenting, the lying, and Cindy, thank you so much. All we`ve seen -- excuse me -- Patti, for all we`ve seen here today. It`s very, very interesting. You know, it`s -- this isn`t stuff admissible in the court of law, but it`s easy to sit here and condemn her when we have that kind of a conversation. It is.
SAX: And it is something that the jury is thinking about. They are human being. They`re judgmental human beings, and they are making credibility calls on their body language, how they testify. So, it`s very important to the trial.
PINSKY: There you go. Next, would you stay up all night to get a place in line -- thank you, by the way, Robin, and thank you, of course, Patti. Will you stay up all night to get in line for the Casey Anthony trial? You`re going to meet someone who did that after the break. I said she came from the northwest ordinance. I meant the Northwest Territory. She came all the way down to Orlando, she got in line in the middle of the night, and she make it`s her job to go to this case every day. We`re going to talk to her after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You do not know, from your examination of the evidence, the cause of death in this case, do you, sir?
DR. GARY UTZ, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I did not make a determination of cause and manner of death in this case.
MASON: My question is very specific, doctor. You do not know the cause of death in this case, do you, sir?
UTZ: I do not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Check out my show tonight, Drew. We`ve got more on the ongoing Casey Anthony trial as Casey`s mom, Cindy, returns to the stand to answer prosecutors` questions. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHY JENNING, ANTHONY TRIAL SPECTATOR: I`ve armed myself with nothing but a sharpie marker, and we started numbering our hands, and we came up with our own honor system. So, we would allow people to leave and go to the bathroom, to leave and go move their car, and they were welcome to come back and get in line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That is Kathy Jenning, affectionately known to those outside the courtroom and to us here as the sharpie lady. She gave herself that nickname by taking control of the line outside the Casey Anthony courtroom, along with our buddy, Barney Fife, Bret. She numbered people`s hands with a sharpie. Now, tonight, my juror is Robin Wilkie. Robin, you`ve taken overcrowd control from the sharpie lady, have you not?
ROBIN WILKIE, DR. DREW. "JUROR": Yes, I most certainly have, and I intend to do so for the next couple of weeks, for the duration of the trial.
PINSKY: Now, my understanding is this trial has sort of a personal meaning for you. Can you explain that to me?
WILKIE: Yes, it does. I am a victim of violent crime, and it`s very, very personal. Now, I want to be a victim advocate because I am a victim of violent crime. And this case is the ultimate of domestic abuse. This is just the absolute ultimate domestic abuse.
PINSKY: You know, that`s a great point, Robin.
WILKIE: These high-profile cases are just captivating the nation.
PINSKY: And whether this was a heinous act of evil or an accident --
WILKIE: I`ve lost you. I`m sorry.
PINSKY: It is a form of domestic violence. So, I would -- I`ve heard that it is costing you thousands of dollars to come down from -- I think you came from Minnesota to Florida. Is that correct?
WILKIE: Yes. I came from Minneapolis, Minnesota. From Minneapolis, Minnesota, yes.
PINSKY: How did you come to decision to come down to Florida? I mean, take me through that. Just like, you`re watching it on TV and thought, I`ve got to get down there?
WILKIE: Well, I` very passionate about the high-profile cases where particularly when it has something to do with domestic violence. And of course, it`s the ultimate on domestic violence when there is a murder.
PINSKY: I understand. Let me ask you this. I`m going to interrupt you. Only have about a minute left with you. Let me ask you this. You`re in the courtroom there. I like asking this of all members of my jury. What do you make of Casey? What`s your sense?
WILKIE: She is a very young, bright woman that has become a liar, and she has become a manipulator, and she knows exactly what she`s doing. She knows exactly what she`s doing to her family, just throwing her whole family under the bus, and she really thought she could get away with this, and she did not get away with it. And she still, still thinks she is brighter than everyone else, just like Scott Peterson.
PINSKY: Well, it may end up being the case that she will end up in the same place as Scott Peterson. Thank you, Robin.
So, the trial of Casey Anthony may be taking a new turn this week as the defense prepares to make its case. And we will be watching and we`ll be trying to figure it out with you. Trying to get our head around this thing, and ultimately, here`s the little girl whose justice we are trying to defend. Don`t forget this is about that little girl. So sad.
END
