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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Fran Drescher, Peter Mark Jacobson
Aired June 14, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the prosecution`s last witnesses take the stand. But the question remains -- how much responsibility do Casey`s parents bear in all this? How were they oblivious through an entire month of Casey`s lies and odd behavior?
Then Representative Weiner`s wife returns home today. Will she urge her embattled husband to resign?
Plus Fran Drescher`s ex-husband is openly gay, and now Fran`s starring in a sitcom about it. She`ll dish on it all with Joy.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: The prosecution began wrapping up its case today in the Casey Anthony murder trial with some final testimony from Casey`s mothers, Cindy, as well as a crime scene investigator. Here now with more on the latest is Ryan Smith, anchor for "In Session" on TruTV, who is outside the courthouse right now; Susan Filan, legal analyst and former prosecutor; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney. Ok, guys.
Now, Cindy Anthony was on the stand today and she was asked about her hair. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, has your hair been processed?
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In what way?
CINDY ANTHONY: In 2001 I started -- actually 2002 I actually started putting hair color on. Prior to that I just used -- I used highlights.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, so does this prove that the hair that they found is not Cindy`s?
SUSAN FILAN, LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, because the hair in the trunk wasn`t processed. And she also testified that Lee, the brother`s hair was short and Caylee`s wasn`t. And Cindy colored her hair. She testified to that, as well. We know it mitochondrial DNA, so it comes from somebody in the maternal line but it can`t be mom and it can`t be grandma because it wasn`t processed hair.
BEHAR: So who`s left?
FILAN: Caylee.
BEHAR: No, Casey. I mean Caylee, right.
FILAN: Caylee.
BEHAR: I get them mixed up.
FILAN: I know. It`s hard.
BEHAR: Ok. Cindy was also asked about duct tape and a laundry bag. What did she say Ryan?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Well, she talked about how there was duct tape that was used in the house to put up stickers. She said initially that George was the one who handled that duct tape but then she said she had also used it at times.
And then there was a bag -- a bag from Whitney, a canvas bag that had been used. She mentioned having that in the house. When they`re trying to do is they`re trying to link items found at the scene to the Casey -- to the Anthony home. If they do that it gets the prosecution closer to making that argument that Casey had access and used these items.
BEHAR: Ok. Do you want to make a comment?
FILAN: Yes. The state has to put as much evidence as it can before this jury because it`s a highly circumstantial case. They can`t directly link Casey to the murder of her daughter. But all of these little pieces are going to add up.
BEHAR: It`s all adding up very, very nicely for the prosecution, I think. Casey`s tattoo artist was also on the stand today. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, I`m showing you what`s been previously marked for identification "HJ"; do you recognize that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Bella vita".
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that the tattoo that you drew on the defendant on July 2, 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a fair and accurate picture of what you did?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, Mark. She got the tattoo in early July of 2008. You`re a defense attorney, how do you defend that?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t. It`s absolutely horrible damaging evidence, it absolutely is. I mean, if it was let`s just say, a tattoo of an above-ground pool with a big no ever it perhaps that would be a good thing for the defense.
BEHAR: God.
EIGLARSH: Anything short of that is horrible.
BEHAR: I mean to write "bella vita" which means beautiful life when a child is missing; it`s just so hideous.
EIGLARSH: Even if your child drowned and the jurors are looking over at you like I`m not going to embrace any defense theory. I don`t like you. And liking a defendant is critical.
BEHAR: Now the prosecution also questioned the crime scene investigator today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you familiar with whether or not there were heart stickers located in the bedroom of Casey Anthony during the execution of that search warrant on December 20 of 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, there were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: All right. Ryan, so could these heart stickers tie Casey to the crime scene?
SMITH: They could, but I don`t think this is the strongest evidence because what it shows is that Casey had access to heart stickers and that there was another witness that came on a day ago, Elizabeth Fontaine, who talked about seeing a residue of a heart-shaped sticker on tape.
BEHAR: Right.
SMITH: But the problem has always been that she didn`t photograph it. So the jury can`t make that comparison. It`s as if somebody just said, well, I think I saw some residue on some duct tape that was at the scene and, oh, yes, there are similar stickers at the home that she had access to.
BEHAR: Yes.
EIGLARSH: I disagree with Ryan. I think this is compelling evidence. First of all, I think because jurors don`t like her, they`ll make the vertical leap that it`s the same heart-shaped sticker. And once you do that, the defense made a mistake of now narrowing it down to only two suspects. It`s either the daughter or a veteran detective. Who is more likely, I ask you, Joy, and your audience, to have put a heart-shaped sticker on the tape?
BEHAR: Not the detective.
FILAN: I think it`s very troubling evidence.
EIGLARSH: Not the detective.
BEHAR: You do.
FILAN: I do, I think that the person who testified was extremely credible. So what if she didn`t photograph it. She made her case extremely credibly and extremely rationally.
BEHAR: Why didn`t she photograph it?
FILAN: Because that wasn`t what she was doing. She was looking for fingerprints and she saw the heart. When she went back in the end realizing it could be key it was gone. But I think she covered that perfectly in her examination.
I also think it`s very, very troubling evidence against Casey because it shows that this isn`t a stranger. Somebody loved her, somebody knew her, somebody cared. And when those stickers then link up to stickers in her own home, I don`t think a jury can ignore that.
It`s not direct proof. It`s maybe not the best proof. But you know, it`s the proof that kind goes right into your gut, pierces right through your heart, and makes you want to throw up.
BEHAR: Like the tattoo. It`s the same idea, you know.
FILAN: It`s bad. It`s bad.
BEHAR: Ok. The state is wrapping up their case. So I want to talk about how they did. Ok.
Ryan, the state set out to prove murder, did they do it?
SMITH: I think so far they have. I think they give great evidence of pointing out if not Casey, then who? This is a person who lied continuously. They begin the case with all the lies, and they end the case with somebody who`s getting a tattoo on her back in the middle of the time where she`s telling everybody or at least later telling everybody that she was searching for her daughter.
You couple that with the physical evidence, hair in the trunk, the heart sticker that we`re talking about. You couple those two things together, and I think it makes the jury think unless the defense has something powerful to come that we don`t know about, if not Casey, then who?
BEHAR: Ok. Mark, did the prosecution make any major errors do you think?
EIGLARSH: I wouldn`t say any errors, but here`s the problem. I agree with Ryan in part. There`s enough that if they wanted to convict her they could, and I don`t think the appellate court would disturb the ruling.
But here`s the problem -- I`ve gotten literally hundreds of Facebook emails from people who give me their theories on what they think happened. That`s a problem. It should be a lot more clear as to how this went down.
And they`ve alleged first-degree murder, specifically. Not just that she did it, she could have done it, most likely. They must prove not only did she do it beyond a reasonable doubt, but this is exactly how it went down. And that may prove to be problematic for the prosecutors.
BEHAR: You have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt for first-degree murder, right, Susan?
FILAN: Yes, you do, and you have to show premeditation and it wasn`t in the heat of the moment, it wasn`t an accident, it wasn`t an afterthought. That you had set out and intended to do it and what you did is what you intended to do. But I`ll tell you there`s --
BEHAR: Do you think they came close?
FILAN: Yes, I do. I`ll tell you where the case turned for me. It`s when you saw how much duct tape was wrapped around that baby girl`s mouth, nose, and face. And I thought it was just maybe a piece across and a piece across. And I kept thinking, well, maybe it was put on postmortem. Maybe -- but boy, the way it was wrapped around and around and around.
Then they stretched it out and you saw the length of it when it was unwrapped, that really changed it for me. That showed a vicious intent of somebody really going at this baby girl. That`s when it tipped for me past -- you know, I stopped looking at it as a lawyer and all the possible theories.
BEHAR: You look at it as a parent.
FILAN: I just looked at it like with common sense, like are you kidding me?
BEHAR: Yes.
EIGLARSH: And then Joy --
FILAN: This wasn`t a mistake, this wasn`t an accident. And this wasn`t just a little bit of tape after she might have been dead.
BEHAR: Yes, Mark?
EIGLARSH: And then Joy, the biggest screw up on the defense side was Jose then coming out with that detailed story that really when you go through it step by step what they`re alleging George has done -- not only has it not been proven -- and I`ll give him the benefit of the doubt. We`ll wait to see what the defense is going to do in their case. But it doesn`t make any sense.
From what we know of George, it does not fit.
SMITH: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, let me ask you Ryan. The defense is up next. So what`s their game plan? I mean they`ve been all over--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: From what I could see as a lay person, they`re all over the place, the defense.
SMITH: They are kind of -- they are a little bit all over the place. And you know, the tough thing is they have to -- they kind of painted themselves in a corner because they set up the situation where they could have given an opening statement to say we`re not going to do anything here, we`re just going to show you how the prosecution`s case doesn`t work.
But instead they offered this theory of sexual abuse as to why Casey suppressed any thought of what happened in this accident and the accident theory. Now they`ve got to back it up.
So in the defense case, we have to see something like that or the jury says wait a second, I`m missing what the defense is saying, I may vote to convict.
BEHAR: Mark I`m just curious, in all the e-mails that you`re getting, do any of those people believe in the abuse allegation?
EIGLARSH: Many actually. In fact, I`ve had people say that it wasn`t Caylee that was her intended target, she was going to off George and Cindy and then that just came on top of it. I mean it`s bizarre how people who are potential jurors are looking at the same evidence and are coming up with crazy these conclusions.
BEHAR: Well, do you think it`s a little different when you`re in the court room?
FILAN: I think it`s completely different when you`re in the courtroom and you`re sequestered and you`re following it from day one and you`re really listening and seeing the evidence and hearing the experts testify in front of you. I think what the defense has to do now is they have to go on a war of the experts. They have to put their own forensic entomologist -- their own bug guy on.
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: To say that that`s impossible, their timeline is wrong, their larvae is wrong.
BEHAR: They`ll dispute the evidence that the prosecution --
FILAN: And go after forensics. Because you can`t do anything with the lies and you can say in closing argument, she`s a liar and you can hate her and she got a tattoo. And you can despise her, but you can`t convict her because the evidence isn`t there.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can`t prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that`s right.
FILAN: That`s where they have to go now.
Oh and by the way, my swimming pool argument, forget it. I -- I wish I hadn`t said that.
BEHAR: Mark, did you want to have the last word or was it Ryan? Somebody over there?
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Yes it`s me.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: Well, I`ll never -- I`ll never turn down the last word but I`ll give it to Ryan, go ahead.
SMITH: All right. You know what it is, guys? They still have to prove they said that there was an accident. George was there. He knew something happened. And then all of a sudden it gets to Roy Kronk. They have to bridge these gaps for the jury. Because if they do not do that -- even though they don`t have the burden of the proof, if they don`t do that, then, what will the jury think? They`ll believe the prosecution`s side of the case.
BEHAR: Right. Yes and -- and Mark, the last word -- will she take the stand, Casey?
EIGLARSH: Boy, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Would you put her on the stand? You`re the defense attorney.
EIGLARSH: Absolutely not. She suffers from lyingitis (ph). You can`t believe a word that she says. I would never do it.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks everyone very much. We`ll have more on the Casey Anthony trial when we come back. I want to talk about the grandparents. It`s an interesting, dynamic there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know one question I keep asking myself in this Casey Anthony trial is -- how much responsibility if any do Casey`s parents bear in all this? Should they have noticed Casey`s odd behavior long before the child went missing?
Here to talk about it: are Terry Real, family therapist and best- selling author; and Dr. Gail Saltz, clinical psychiatrist and associate professor of psychiatry at the New York Presbyterian Hospital.
Gail, during the 31 days that Caylee went missing, the parents tried to get in touch with Casey to find out, you know, "Where`s Caylee? How are you doing?" And she just kept feeding them lies. She`d say she`s with Zanny the nanny, made up. She`s napping, lies. She`s with a friend`s mom.
So how much responsibility do they bear for not being more aggressive in finding their grandchild?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: I think to ask lots of questions is what a parent would do and a grandparent would do. But to believe that something so horrendous as maybe your daughter --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s harsh.
SALTZ: -- murdered her daughter --
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: -- is really a path what most people could imagine or tolerate.
So I think, you know, it would be -- I think what they did was reasonable. What most people would do and I think, frankly, when it comes to the idea that maybe my daughter did something heinous with my granddaughters, you`d go into denial. You know, you would have to -- you couldn`t believe that about your own child.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes it`s hard to believe.
SALTZ: I think it would very hard to believe.
BEHAR: I mean it is such a heinous thing that you would put it in the back. But you know, George --
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: I mean maybe you would get suspicious and uncomfortable and so you would be asking more questions --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: -- whether she would actually -- not to mention that when you use the word "responsibility" I mean, if -- if indeed this is what happened, it was already done.
So what exactly we`re they trying to, you know, do about it?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: But they -- they kept believing her. George -- George, the father, was suspicious.
SALTZ: Yes.
GREGORY: And Terry, he`s an ex-cop, should he have done more, do you think? I mean he was suspicious of the behavior and he was like wondering what`s up with this; more than the mother, I think.
TERRY REAL, FAMILY THERAPIST: Well I -- Yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
REAL: No, I do think that there`s -- there`s a gut factor in here. And I think that you can trust your gut. But, you know, as everybody knows, I mean Casey is an inveterate liar by all allegations. I mean she was very elaborate in her deception supposedly. She would get dressed and act like she was going to work every day. And this went on for years -- so --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You mean before the whole thing, yes.
REAL: Yes. I think that when you`re dealing with somebody who apparently is such an elaborate liar, it`s a stretch to hold the -- the other people responsible.
BEHAR: Well, I`m not holding them responsible. But if you know that the girl is this elaborate liar.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: That she`s been -- you know, you`ve been a liar all your life, then when they say, oh, where -- where is the child, you know, where is -- where`s Caylee? Oh, she`s taking a nap -- every time you call --
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: You get put off? I mean, I would at least be wondering if she`s being neglectful of the child. I would.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: And they probably did. And they probably did.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: Which is why the events went that the way -- the way they did.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
SALTZ: But I think that when you have a pathological liar in a family it becomes -- it really creates a chaos. And for a parent, it is the torture of acknowledging that your child is a pathological liar, forget murderer, but even to acknowledge that your child is a pathological liar and maybe a neglectful parent.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And an unfit mother she said.
SALTZ: It`s painful -- but it is so painful that you wax and wane back and forth between acknowledging that and asking those questions and stepping back and sort of hiding your own mind from it, if you will, to diminish your anxiety about is this who my child is.
BEHAR: Yes and also, you don`t want to take the blame that maybe you did something wrong.
SALTZ: And there you go.
And this is often -- and not that they do to -- and not that they are responsible for that blame. But it -- when your -- your child misbehaves let`s say, or is -- really has problems in big ways, you do question yourself often as a parent.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Of course. You should.
SALTZ: And that`s very painful, and you should. But it`s painful. And so that also may make you deny what`s going on.
BEHAR: But -- but you know what, Terry, a pathological liar doesn`t just come out of nowhere.
REAL: Yes.
BEHAR: And you observe that behavior over their lifetime. That child was always -- that girl was always lying.
SALTZ: Right.
I mean there`s something about it --
(CROSSTALK)
REAL: Right.
BEHAR: My daughter --
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: Sometimes that`s true and sometimes it`s not.
BEHAR: -- my daughter just had a baby. And I watch the way she is with the baby. I really do observe her.
SALTZ: Of course.
BEHAR: She seems very loving towards the baby. I mean --
REAL: Well, I -- I think that`s right -- I think -- I think that what you can say is that -- they must have smelled that something wasn`t right. There had to be a sense that this was not a normal bond between mother and child. There had to be a sense that she was lying to them at some point.
The lies were just too -- too pervasive. But I -- I have to back Gail up on this one. What`s the alternative? You know where is Caylee? She`s dead. I mean, where is Caylee? She`s disappeared. It`s just so unthinkable, that it`s not like you imagine that she`s around the block or she`s with a boyfriend or something like that.
BEHAR: Yes.
REAL: It`s just really huge.
SALTZ: Also --
BEHAR: Well, we have to take a break.
Right, we`re going to take a break. We`ll have a little more on this when we come back. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the Casey Anthony trial. Well, I mean I do always think that the parents bear some responsibility. I -- I take the blame for anything that my kid might have done that made her unhappy. I do take the blame for that. I was the one who raised her. I`m the one who gave birth to her.
SALTZ: Right. Well, certainly parents have a big input. And they can make things better, and they can make things worse.
BEHAR: Yes.
SALTZ: However, in the creation of a pathological liar, can it be something the parents did? Sure, it can. They could have modeled that. They could have been abusive and this kid is disassociated, and now becomes sort of a liar, doesn`t know what the truth it. But sometimes that`s not the case at all.
There really are people who are born -- it seems biologically predisposed to being sociopaths. And they are different. They are missing a chip, if you will.
BEHAR: Ok, to that point, then you observe the child being dis- associative, as you say, and pathological. Where`s the help? What do you do with that child? Shouldn`t you take that child to a psychiatrist? Yes, Terry, go ahead.
REAL: No, I think that`s right. I think that there are lots of red flags. I think this is not a normal person. You would know that this is not a normal person.
As you say, George is an ex-cop. He should know -- he should be able to smell a sociopath at some level when he sees it. They didn`t get the help that they might have gotten. And more important, if you`re dealing with somebody who kills their own child, what was the relationship like between mother and child for the whole two years? And how come something like that wasn`t -- how come something like that wasn`t picked up?
On the other hand, accomplished liars are very good liars. And it is your kid. You don`t want to believe the worst in them. What are you going to say? It`s not like my kid is missing or I`m not doing well with them. It`s like, I killed her. So who in the world is going to go there? It`s really a stretch.
SALTZ: In fact, smart sociopaths who do things privately that are really quite immoral and they feel no guilt and they have no empathy can really hide that if they`re socially intelligent. And sometimes parents don`t see it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I`m not blaming -- wait. Let me be clear. I`m not blaming the parents. All I`m doing is trying to raise a red flag to people watching the show --
SALTZ: Yes, let me say -- you`re right.
BEHAR: -- and watching this case. It`s like observe your children.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: If you see something, say something. You know?
SALTZ: Yes, absolutely. Say something --
BEHAR: And do something.
SALTZ: And -- and the point about getting them help is a real point.
BEHAR: Right.
SALTZ: So, if you see weird, you know, look -- probably -- if this happened, behavior started earlier. There was something --
BEHAR: You know Gail, you see sometimes -- you see these kids, Terry, who abuse animals when they`re little.
SALTZ: Yes, absolutely.
REAL: Right.
BEHAR: Then they become murders when they`re all grown up.
SALTZ: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You should be dealing with a child who does something like that. Yes, Terry, go ahead.
REAL: I think your point is really well taken, Joy. I think it doesn`t even have to be that extreme.
What I tell parents is trust your gut. If your kid is lying to you and is a chronic kind of lie, there will be implausibilities. Stories will not hang together. You will feel it in your gut. Break through that wall of denial. Look at your kids squarely in the face and deal with what`s going on. Get them some help.
It doesn`t have to be this extreme. It doesn`t have to be torturing animals. It could just be a kid who`s chronically lying. Get them the help they need. You`re absolutely right.
SALTZ: Right.
BEHAR: That`s right. Ok. Thanks very much. Two smart shrinks I have here.
And we`ll be back in a minute.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Anthony Weiner`s wife returns home. Will she tell her husband to resign?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: New York Congressman Anthony Weiner has not yet offered to resign in the wake of his Twitter scandal, despite mounting pressure to do so from fellow politicians. Even President Obama weighed in on the "Today Show." Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Obviously what he did was highly inappropriate. I think he`s embarrassed himself. He`s acknowledged that. He`s embarrassed his wife and his family.
Ultimately, there`s going to be a decision for him and his constituents. I can tell you that if it was me, I would resign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ann Curry looks like a nun. Obama could never do something like this, and I could never get used to saying President Weiner.
Here to talk about this and other stories in the news are Joe Levy, editor-in-chief of "Maxim" magazine. Melissa Joan Hart, co-star of "Melissa and Joey" on ABC Family, which premieres June 29. And Ross Matthews, comedian and Jenny Craig spokesperson at the moment. Hello.
ROSS MATTHEWS, COMEDIAN: Hello.
BEHAR: So Joe or Ross or Melissa, does he have any choice but to resign at this point? When the president`s telling you --
MELISSA JOAN HART, ACTRESS: I don`t know. President Clinton got a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) job in the office, right, and Weiner, I mean, he -- you show your junk on Twitter, it`s not as bad?
JOE LEVY, MAXIM MAGAZINE: Right away we`re working blue. Right away, Melissa Joan Hart`s taking us blue right away.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Don`t let that angelic face fool you. And she sounds like from experience, she gets it.
LEVY: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Does he have any choice? I don`t know. It`s just photo after photo keeps coming out. I feel like we may be the only ones he hasn`t sent his junk to. And I`m relatively concerned that I`m going to go to the office, open up an email for penis enlargement, and it`s going to be his stuff. I`m going to get -- I just am tired of seeing him half naked.
BEHAR: You mentioned -- you mentioned Clinton. Is it interesting to you at all that Huma, his wife, was an intern at the same time at the White House, at the same time that Monica Lewinsky --
MATTHEWS: Was she?
BEHAR: -- was. It`s an interesting little factoid, is it not?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Isn`t it, though? The irony of the whole thing.
MATTHEWS: It is. I`m kind of over the story a little bit, because it`s always another picture. I`m usually a sucker for a Weiner story, but I`m kind of just bored.
BEHAR: Or a wiener for a sucker story.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What advice do you think Hillary could give Huma? Huma? Huma?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Well, a lot. I feel like if anyone knows anything about this, it`s Hillary. I mean, listen, if you have a problem and you`re around Hillary Clinton, you want it to be this problem.
HART: Hillary seems so happy, really. I mean, she just seems so like pleased with her life. I don`t know, it just seems like she`s a little bit miserable, so maybe she doesn`t have the best advice to give.
BEHAR: Hillary seems miserable to you?
HART: Yes. She seems miserable to me.
MATTHEWS: Really?
HART: Yes.
MATTHEWS: She looks like she put on a couple -- she looks -- I think she looks cute.
BEHAR: Put on a couple of pounds?
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I like my older women like a little (inaudible), you know what I mean? I don`t mean to like demean her, at all. She`s of course genius.
BEHAR: I`m sure she`d love to hear that.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Let`s watch -- talk about another story. Tracy Morgan story. OK? He`s desperately trying to make amends for his recent homophobic rant. First he issued an apology. Then he agreed to do a PSA. Now he says he supports gay marriage. What`s next, a quiet weekend with Barney Frank? OK. Is the next step going to rehab for Tracy Morgan?
MATTHEWS: Right. The next step is going on RuPaul`s drag race is what it is. He`s changing his tune -- his gay tune faster than an Abba song, right? He`s like -- like to go from where he -- what he said was -- it was so offensive, it should have been illegal. I was ready to put him under a citizens arrest. You know what I mean? Force him to watch the Tonys with me. That`s what I want to do to this man.
But I do like that he`s not only said I shouldn`t have said that, but he`s going the extra mile now.
BEHAR: It`s too much.
MATTHEWS: You think it`s too much?
BEHAR: I don`t know that I trust him. Do you believe it, or is it a PR move?
HART: I feel like if it was a PR move, he would do as little as possible. This seems like an excessive amount, so I think he feels badly. I mean, that`s what it looks like to me.
LEVY: Yeah, I think he`s actually sincere. And he`s done something that in the context, the comedy that the -- the bit we`re all upset about - - and we should all be upset about it -- was really about going too far. It was just about saying the most offensive thing in the most offensive way he could. And there are comedians who do that.
He seems to have actually realized he went too far.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: And he`s talked about his dad, who died from AIDS.
BEHAR: That`s right.
LEVY: He`s talked about -- he`s offered to show up at rallies. He`s actually done everything but propose to a man.
BEHAR: Maybe that`s next.
LEVY: It could be next. But if it is, it might be sincere because he seems to be sincere about all of this.
HART: Strangely enough, I was just at the Monte Carlo International Film Fest and he won best comedic actor in the world, and he didn`t show up. Now I know why.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: They`re having a comedy festival in Monte Carlo?
HART: No, it was a television festival. And he won best comedic actor --
BEHAR: In the world?
HART: Yes. And -- any show in any country. Yes.
BEHAR: All right. Well, do you think the gay community will forgive him? He`s working with GLAAD right now.
MATTHEWS: I hope he`s sincere. I hope it was a joke he took too far. I don`t know. And I have to believe that he really means this. Because it`s 2011, people, right?
LEVY: I mean, this is what they call a teachable moment.
BEHAR: It`s a teachable moment.
MATTHEWS: Hello, Oprah here on the panel. You just had an a-ha moment is what you did.
LEVY: I did. I feel warm and cuddly, and you get a car and you get a car. And -- you get a car. Yes, you too, OK.
BEHAR: OK. Next up, Shannon Tweed angrily walked off my set yesterday after arguing with her partner, Gene Simmons, over the 5,000 women he supposedly slept with. It was quite dramatic. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How`s your back, Gene?
GENE SIMMONS: My back is good. My schmeckel (ph) not so much.
SHANNON TWEED: That`s very nice of you to joke about it.
SIMMONS: It`s a joke. Where are you going? What are you doing?
TWEED: So rude. So rude.
BEHAR: She`s done with you.
TWEED: So rude of you to joke about it.
SIMMONS: I was -- I was -- I was just joking because she`s a comedian.
TWEED: I know you think it was really funny. Thank you. Here, take that (ph).
SIMMONS: Thanks for the question.
BEHAR: I`m sorry. You`re putting this on me? Don`t put this on me. This is all yours.
SIMMONS: You did an entire setup.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She walks off the set in the middle of the interview. Who does this? Oh, never mind.
(CROSSTALK)
HART: Happens to everyone, right?
BEHAR: Happens to the best of us.
HART: Yes, it does.
BEHAR: So what do you think about that?
MATTHEWS: Well, I just think -- like -- what, is she really shocked? I mean, it`s Gene Simmons, right? When you are with someone, you support their hobbies. Gene Simmons`s hobby is having sex with other women, right? Like, it shouldn`t be a shock to her.
BEHAR: Well, he`s a musician, I mean, his main thing is -- that you know, Kiss.
MATTHEWS: I don`t think his main thing is being a musician. I think his main thing is doing women. That`s what -- 5,000 women or something he`s done?
BEHAR: No, 500.
LEVY: No. No.
BEHAR: 5,000?
LEVY: 5,000.
MATTHEWS: 500 last week, honey.
(CROSSTALK)
HART: I got mad at my husband once, I left the country, I didn`t just leave the studio. So I don`t know, I don`t think there is anything wrong with this.
BEHAR: Do you think it was contrived?
LEVY: Yes, of course I think it was contrived. The whole "Gene Simmons Family Jewels," the whole season is supposed to be about the tension between the two of them. So they find a few public places to go and have tension. I mean, everyone here says --
HART: You mean like actors?
LEVY: No, I mean, have you seen "Body Heat 4?" She can really -- she can really emote while pretending to have sex. She really can.
BEHAR: Sounds familiar.
LEVY: No, listen, he`s the great -- one of the great marketers in the world.
BEHAR: Yes.
LEVY: His talent for music is way beyond his talent for putting on kabuki make-up.
BEHAR: And he`s a very smart guy.
LEVY: He`s an extremely smart guy.
BEHAR: Very smart, yes.
LEVY: So whether or not there`s tension between them, I think this is all marketing for a television show that`s supposed to be about the tension between them.
BEHAR: Right. Well, they were very convincing, I must say.
MATTHEWS: When you were sitting there, you didn`t feel like a fake vibe?
BEHAR: When they first started, I thought, well, they`re coming out, it`s a realty show -- who believes realty shows? I don`t. It`s all a bunch of BS anyway.
MATTHEWS: I do.
BEHAR: You do? Well--
MATTHEWS: I get a little too invested --
BEHAR: They need an audience.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Ding, ding, ding.
BEHAR: So they came out and I said, all right, I`ll play along with this that they`re fighting with each other. We`ll show clips. They gave us the clips, OK, of them fighting.
LEVY: Of them fighting.
BEHAR: But then she threw his sunglasses off of him and she was irritated with him. And he looked upset and she looked upset. There was - - there was like a palpable downer in the room, you know, because of the relationship. So I thought maybe this is real. Then he starts blaming it on me. And now I don`t believe it anymore. Now I think it`s a bunch of baloney.
HART: Did you see them afterwards?
BEHAR: I went through a few phases.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I did. So that`s the story.
Anyway, finally, Arnold Schwarzenegger`s mistress and baby mama Mildred Baena (ph) has finally broken her silence. She revealed to "Hello" magazine the kid`s name is Joseph, and she said Maria Shriver hugged her when she finally admitted the kid was Arnold`s. You know, there`s a fine line between hugging and choking. Just saying. What about that?
MATTHEWS: Well, when the kid found out -- I read this -- that Arnold was his dad, the kid -- this is a quote, said "cool." When I -- you know, I thought if -- if that happened to me, if I ever found out Arnold Schwarzenegger was my dad, I might say something similar, you know what I mean? But I would try to all of a sudden like have an accent like Arnold, like -- cool! Cool! You know? Just -- extra oomph.
BEHAR: Wouldn`t you be glad if the Terminator was your father?
MATTHEWS: Well, I had a great father but -- yes. Yes, that would be cool. That would be really cool.
BEHAR: It would make you macho, wouldn`t it, and to know that your father was the Terminator?
MATTHEWS: Well, in my mind, I would be like "Kindergarten Cop," that`s what I like. That`s more my speed.
BEHAR: Did you really think that Maria hugged her? I mean, Maria is a saint. Maria needs to be canonized if that`s true.
LEVY: Yes. Yes, is there not a St. Maria already? St. Maria the second, she would be the second.
BEHAR: Well, Maria is the Madonna. Your main Maria.
LEVY: See, they don`t teach us that in Hebrew school. They don`t teach us in Hebrew school, no.
BEHAR: All right. Thank you, guys. Oh, by the way, that whole interview with Gene Simmons and Shannon Tweed will be on our show tomorrow night. So watch the whole thing. It`s quite interesting television. And maybe you guys out there can figure out if they meant it or not. I still - -
LEVY: I can`t believe you broke them up. I can`t believe you -- after 28 years.
BEHAR: I still don`t know if it`s true or not. I want people to watch and write to me whether you think it`s true or not, OK? And a quick note -- Melissa has teamed up with Beechnut Baby Food to fight childhood hunger. Visit Beechnut`s Facebook page to get them to donate a jar of food to feed the children. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: She was the star of the hit series "The Nanny," and he was the co-creator. Together Fran Drescher and Peter Mark Jacobson were a Hollywood couple that had it all, until they divorced and Peter announced he was gay. I hate when that happens. It just ruins everything.
Never known to miss an opportunity to be funny, the two have now developed a sitcom about it. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m gay.
FRAN DRESCHER, ACTRESS: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve been feeling this for a really long time, but I`ve been suppressing it.
DRESCHER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Stop everything. Nobody talk. What are you saying to me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fran, I`m gay.
DRESCHER: But we just had sex during Leno? How gay can you be?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Who has sex during Leno? That`s a turnoff right here. Here with me now, Fran Drescher and her ex-husband Peter Mark Jacobson, creators of the new TVLand show "Happily Divorced," in which Fran stars.
So, Guys, where do I begin with this story? You two met such a long time ago.
DRESCHER: Fifteen. We were 15.
BEHAR: You were 15 also?
PETER MARK JACOBSON: Yes.
BEHAR: You were in high school together. Where, in Queens?
DRESCHER: Yes.
BEHAR: Where?
DRESCHER: Jamaica Queens, Hillcrest High.
BEHAR: My daughter went there.
DRESCHER: No way.
BEHAR: Yes. She went to Hillcrest. Stop it.
DRESCHER: Oh, my God. How funny.
BEHAR: I know. Yes, yes. So when you walked down the aisle, did you have any idea you were gay?
JACOBSON: You know, I think my whole life I had feelings and attractions towards guys, but, you know, I grew up in Queens, in Flushing. So you didn`t have those kind of feelings.
BEHAR: They don`t allow it in Flushing?
JACOBSON: They don`t allow it in Flushing. So you just sort of bury it down, and you suppress it. And I was taught you get married, you meet someone, give them a big ring, and have a wedding.
BEHAR: That`s the way everybody`s raised. But then comes the day where you just want to dance around the house and you say, hey --
JACOBSON: Yes. You can`t do it.
BEHAR: It didn`t occur to you at all then?
JACOBSON: No, it occurred to me, but I didn`t -- I wanted to be with Fran. I loved her. I was in love with her. And--
DRESCHER: Yes.
JACOBSON: I said, you know what, I saw three shrinks throughout my straight career --
BEHAR: Trying to change yourself?
JACOBSON: Trying to -- they all said I`m not gay.
BEHAR: They said you were not gay?
JACOBSON: No, they said you`re not gay. And I wasn`t --
BEHAR: How did they know?
JACOBSON: Well, you know, it was many, many years of -- I guess they didn`t. You know?
BEHAR: They didn`t. But I mean, what makes them say that, shrinks? How dare they?
DRESCHER: Well, did you say you loved me?
BEHAR: Yes, I said I loved her.
DRESCHER: And we had an active sex life. So maybe they thought that that wouldn`t be -- because I think that you came to the conclusion that maybe you were bisexual.
JACOBSON: Bisexual.
BEHAR: Oh, bisexual. Is there such a thing really?
JACOBSON: Well, I`m sure there is. I guess not for me, because I ended up being gay. But --
BEHAR: See, I know a guy who says, yes, I`m bisexual, I`m attracted to gay men and straight men.
DRESCHER: I know a lot of men who like --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s so appalling in a way. You go to a shrink, three of them, and you say, look, I`m attracted to men. And they say, no, you`re not gay, you love your wife. That`s crazy.
DRESCHER: But you know, I don`t think you were really -- I mean, that wasn`t when you went into really intense psychotherapy.
JACOBSON: No, I was honest about it. I went for three years talking about it. So it wasn`t like it was just passing. You know, I think they wanted me to have what I wanted, and they were trying to make me be who I wanted to be instead of be my authentic self.
BEHAR: Yes, I understand. You could see -- I understand, but you told me earlier that the sex was great.
DRESCHER: Yes. We felt -- I felt like --
BEHAR: I mean, that is always interesting to people who are not in your situation.
DRESCHER: I said to him after I had been with several men subsequent to our diverse, that he was very well proportioned.
JACOBSON: Oh, God.
BEHAR: That was a compliment.
DRESCHER: Yes.
BEHAR: What do you mean before? How -- what kind of putan (ph) were you? You were only 15 years old? How many boyfriends?
DRESCHER: No, no, I didn`t say before, I said after our divorce.
BEHAR: Oh, after the divorce.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I misheard you.
JACOBSON: She was a nice girl.
BEHAR: In those days before you were 15? Forget it.
DRESCHER: No, that`s the point. We were children when we met.
BEHAR: Right.
DRESCHER: We fell in love. We were best friends. We had a million things in common.
BEHAR: Yes.
DRESCHER: And, you know, we built a little life. And a long time.
BEHAR: How many years were you married?
DRESCHER: And you know the thing is --
BEHAR: 19 years.
DRESCHER: We`re very different people now. Because we`ve gotten in touch with -- we`ve gained insight to ourselves.
BEHAR: Of course.
DRESCHER: We function more from our adult self through psychotherapy, and so when we were married, I think that we really didn`t know ourselves very well. And so we were kind of play acting.
BEHAR: That`s true with a lot of people. I got married young -- not 15. I was 22 --
DRESCHER: We didn`t get married at 15, we got married at 21.
BEHAR: OK. Same idea. I got married young, and you look back and you say, who was that girl? Who was that? And that`s what happens when you get older and you get smarter and you learn --
DRESCHER: Yes. The good thing is that we`ve learned how to reinvent our love and friendship for each other in a way that suits us far better now.
BEHAR: Right.
DRESCHER: And I think we`re happier now in our relationship than we ever were.
BEHAR: Are you in a relationship with a man now?
JACOBSON: No. I`m not.
BEHAR: You`re not?
JACOBSON: No. But I`m looking.
BEHAR: You`re looking.
JACOBSON: Yes. She`s fixed me up a few times.
BEHAR: Oh, yeah?
JACOBSON: And I fixed her up a few times.
BEHAR: I`ve got a few numbers in the building. We`ll continue this in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Fran Drescher, her ex-husband Peter Mark Jacobson, and joining us is Fran`s "Happily Divorced" co-star, John Michael Higgins.
Welcome. What do I call you, Michael?
JOHN MICHAEL HIGGINS, ACTOR: I go by Michael, actually, yes.
BEHAR: You go by Michael? OK. You`re playing this guy in the sitcom, basically. Do you study him all day? Is that what you --
HIGGINS: Well, we are wearing the same clothes. We should have called each other.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Do you try to do it the way he does it?
HIGGINS: Actually, well, I would say that the series is more inspired by their situation than themselves, you know. I`m not really playing this Peter. I`m playing somebody else, and Fran is certainly not a poor florist.
BEHAR: You`ve played gay roles before, right?
HIGGINS: I have. Yes.
DRESCHER: "Best in Show."
(CROSSTALK)
DRESCHER: Brilliant.
JACOBSON: He wasn`t going to do another gay role, and we were so lucky that he decided--
BEHAR: God, that was the funniest scene in the movie when you`re decorating the hotel room.
HIGGINS: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, I died laughing.
DRESCHER: And all the different, you know, like, Chinese robes he was going to take.
HIGGINS: Yes, kimono, yes.
DRESCHER: And his husband says, Michael McKean, we`re only going for three days. Yeah, what--
(CROSSTALK)
HIGGINS: Yes. I need two more.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: My God, that was an inspired thing to decorate that hotel room.
So did you worry about being typecast a little bit here?
HIGGINS: Well, you know, there`s two answers. One is that it`s Hollywood. You do something once, people like it, it goes well. They say, do it again, do it again. And you know, that`s one of the -- but gay is not really playable. It`s like playing a Methodist or something. It`s like there`s a thousand different -- there`s a thousand -- there`s a different gay for every person who`s gay.
BEHAR: But in "Best in Show," you were a little flamboyant. In this one you`re not.
HIGGINS: Yes. I think those two men, me in this and me in "Best in Show," share one small sliver, which is --
JACOBSON: Not that small.
HIGGINS: Well, OK.
(CROSSTALK)
HIGGINS: I don`t know if I`m as well proportioned as Peter, according to the last segment.
BEHAR: It`s interesting, I`ve had these conversations before, but a straight actor can play gay in this industry. When a gay actor plays gay, people have trouble with that in Hollywood.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that is true.
DRESCHER: Well, for many years, if you were going to play like a Jewish character, the nutty neighbor, it was almost always played by gentiles.
BEHAR: By Blythe Danner.
DRESCHER: Yeah, exactly. I was actually one of the very first --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The most goyish--
(CROSSTALK)
DRESCHER: But, you know, I think that this character is particularly interesting to play, and why I was, you know, so held out for such a fine actor as Michael, because, you know, he has to walk that razor`s edge of a man that has lived his entire life as a straight man and only now is emerging as a gay man. So, you know, there`s like --
BEHAR: It`s a great role, really.
DRESCHER: It`s a very fine line.
BEHAR: But it`s a great role.
HIGGINS: It kind of is. It`s kind of a titanic undertaking in a way. You have to play two things at once all the time.
BEHAR: I look forward to watching. So "Happily Divorced" premieres tomorrow night on TVLand -- TVLand--
DRESCHER: TVLand.
(CROSSTALK)
DRESCHER: At 10:30.
BEHAR: Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
