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Last-Minute Surprise Witness in Casey Anthony Trial
Aired June 15, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go now.
Prosecutors rest their case three years to the day since Caylee Anthony was last seen by anyone but Casey. I`m asking, did they prove murder?
And the defense asks that the charges be thrown out. No way, says Judge Perry.
Plus, a stunning new development. Casey`s defense announces a last- minute star witness. Is he their ace in the hole? Will he point to George and away from Casey?
Let`s figure this one out.
Now, tonight marks the day that 2-year-old Caylee Anthony was last seen alive. That was three years ago today.
Let`s take a look at the last known video of this little girl on the very day that the prosecution rests.
Now, this girl, these images, are the things that need to ground us when we discuss this case. We`ve had a lot of anger, a lot of speculation. We do a lot of trying to figure this thing out. I think most people have concluded that Casey, not such a good person, maybe even a psychopath.
But please, everybody, I find myself wanting to do this for myself, just kind of check myself regularly, and be sure we`re motivated and stay grounded, and remember that what we`re trying to do is find justice for this young life that was cut short sadly. It`s just heartbreaking to watch this.
And that`s really what this is about. So, all of the other frenzy, which we`ll continue to engage in, no doubt -- I mean, it`s fascinating -- but please, just every once in a while, let`s just check ourselves with that.
All right. So here we go.
Tonight, the prosecution has rested its case. We`re going to take a look at this and then talk some more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense attorney Cheney Mason arguing to the court this case should be thrown out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no evidence presented to establish when the child died, where she died, how she died.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all know she did something terrible, but was that something terrible premeditated murder?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been tried based on her negative character.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stealing, boozing, screwing, and tattooing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s a difference between that and a premeditated first-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it call comes down to the Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three pieces of Duct tape. We would ask the court to deny the motion for acquittal.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, NINTH JUDICIAL COURT: The defense`s motion are hereby denied.
PINSKY: All right. So, now, do we all think the prosecution has satisfactorily proven that Casey killed Caylee?
And now the defense announces a surprise star witness. I thought this only happened on TV shows.
The attorneys in my group here are going to have to straighten me out on this. This guy is an Orlando felon with a violent past. I think it was -- yes, he had a history of kidnapping, apparently.
Here is the big surprise. Phone records show Casey`s dad, George Anthony, called this guy four times just one day before Cindy Anthony made this frantic phone call --
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Caylee is missing! Casey says Zanny took her a month ago. She`s been missing for a month.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, it is so hard to see the torture that Cindy had to go through.
All right. Now, George`s attorneys say George has no idea who this guy is.
Joining me to discuss this now are attorney Lisa Bloom. She`s with me here in the studio. We also have criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
Mark, I don`t see your Leonard Padilla hat. I`m a little disappointed.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Retired.
PINSKY: And host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith.
So, Ryan, what are you finding out about this surprise star witness down there in Orlando?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, this was a bombshell. We didn`t expect this. And what we`re finding out, as you mentioned, this man, his name is Vasco Thompson. You mentioned that he`s a convicted felon. That`s right.
He served a 10-year prison sentence for kidnapping. And the crux of all this is that he made those four phone calls that at least they`re claiming, defense investigators are claiming, made four phone calls to George Anthony`s phones the day before Cindy made that phone call you just mentioned.
Now, I think this could be an effort to pin all of this on George, because the defense is introducing this, and the reason they are saying it`s coming in so late is they are saying they just learned about this, and because of his violent past and these phone call connections. They are bringing it up in good faith this late in the day, and they should be able to depose him.
But this, to me, sounds like something that they`re going to try to use to pin this on George Anthony.
PINSKY: Ryan, what do you think this guy is going to get on the stand and say?
SMITH: Well, first of all, Dr. Drew, he`s been refusing, according to these documents, to talk to investigators so far, to talk to prosecutors, to be interviewed. I think the only thing he can testify to is that he made these phone calls, and the defense is then going to ask him, what were you calling him about? What did you want to talk about?
Now, Mark Lippman, who is George Anthony`s attorney, gave a very interesting response. He said, George says he never got these calls, never talked to him. There`s no talk about the length of time or whether or not these calls were made by George or this guy Vasco Thompson.
So, in a sense, they`re saying, I don`t know anything about this guy.
PINSKY: Well, Lisa, I saw you reading the attorney`s statement that he had disavowed any knowledge of the guy. And you went, "Oh, the attorney is saying that."
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: Right.
PINSKY: You mean that`s not necessarily coming from George?
BLOOM: That`s right. This is a very strange turn of affairs.
PINSKY: No kidding.
BLOOM: But this does happen in real trials. This has happened in my trials, because the argument -- because here`s what happens.
BLOOM: As the attorney, you have investigators out there all the time pursuing leads, and maybe at the last minute you do find something. And if you do, you can bring it to the attention of the court.
Now, if you knew about it before, this should have been disclosed in pretrial discovery. But you tell me, you give me a good answer as to why George Anthony has four phone calls with a convicted kidnapper the day before Caylee is reported missing. I mean, that certainly would make me scratch my head. If I`m the judge, I`m saying, OK, I want to hear from this guy.
PINSKY: I want to hear.
Mark Eiglarsh, what do you think we`re going to hear?
EIGLARSH: I want to hear it, too. And it may mean nothing. It may be the defense is fishing, they`re trying to find something. But I think there`s enough that the judge would have to let them explore it.
If they don`t, and the judge says, no, I`m not going to deal with it, you should have known about it, you waited, then we`re going to be dealing with this on appeal, either because Jose is ineffective because he should have found this out sooner, or because the judge has steam-rolled this along and didn`t let the defense explore all options.
PINSKY: But I`m confused. Let me tell you something else that was reported recently. We have a CNN reporter, Gary Tuchman, who ran into Cindy and George in the elevator in the courtroom, and he observed something interesting.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I walked out with them, and they walked to the elevator. It was a long elevator ride. And for 23 floors, they just held each other and they cried, and she put her head in his chest. And he put his head down towards her.
And it was a very tender moment. It was very poignant. It was very sad to watch this. I mean, I have never seen people who have to go through so much in any legal case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Right. It`s almost like we`re putting this couple through torture. If they haven`t had some complicity here, it`s really bad times.
But remember now, George had tried to take his own life some months ago. It was a year ago, something like that? I mean, this man, this is serious stuff.
BLOOM: Yes. We should never forget these are real people.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
BLOOM: You know, we watch them on TV, and we think they are like television stars or movie stars. And they`re not. They are real people. And you can only imagine -- really, none of us can imagine.
The media crush for three years after their granddaughter is first missing, then discovered dead, and then their daughter is put on trial for her murder, I mean, it is horrendous. And I have gone through high-profile trials with people like this.
People say, oh, they`re faking it, they`re crying, they have no affect. You know, whatever they are going through, it`s horrendous. And we should never lose sight of that
PINSKY: Well, and Mark, my question is -- thank you, Lisa.
My question to Mark, what is the defense going to put George through here? I mean, how much torture and what is -- you know, what are we up against here?
EIGLARSH: Here`s the answer. The defense will do whatever it takes to win an acquittal. If that means slaughtering George`s reputation, if that means doing horrific things, their number one purpose, their goal, their function in this case and every case is towards their client, whether you like it or not.
BLOOM: Yes, but that`s why we have a judge to run interference and say this isn`t about just tarring and feathering this man. It`s not about bringing up every incident from the past, whether he had an affair -- he`s accused of molesting his daughter -- et cetera.
This is a murder trial. And the question is whether this little girl was murdered by her mother. And I hope the defense doesn`t just allow -- I hope the judge doesn`t allow the defense to run roughshod over this man, because I don`t think that`s right.
EIGLARSH: Well, too late.
SMITH: Yes, Judge Perry has already shown that he will step in when he needs to, especially when they start hitting these repetitive questions, because you`ll remember, the defense has already questioned him on different aspects of this, how he was involved. He`s already said there was no accident. He`s already said there was no abuse.
I have a feeling Judge Perry will step in if he feels like it`s getting repetitive, just berating this witness just to try to get him to say something he`s not going to say. I think Judge Perry is going to step in and stop that.
PINSKY: Well, Ryan, thank you.
Go ahead, Mark.
EIGLARSH: If he interferes too much, he may be stepping on the defendant`s rights. No matter how gross it may appear to all of us, assuming George did nothing but be a good, loving grandfather, imagine if he steps in. Then the defense would have greater issues on appeal. He needs to be careful.
BLOOM: Yes, but if that`s been answered, the judge is entitled to say move on, let`s move on to something we haven`t heard already.
SMITH: That`s right.
PINSKY: Honest to God, at least three times a night when I`m doing this show, I feel like my insides are turning upside-down. Usually it`s when Mark tells me that truth doesn`t matter or something like that.
BLOOM: Truth does matter.
PINSKY: But every so often, what`s happened to this family, the meaning of this case, just gets me disgusted and nauseated.
BLOOM: This is a search for truth.
PINSKY: Well, Mark, is it a search for truth?
BLOOM: That`s absolutely what a trial is.
EIGLARSH: Lisa, come on. Don`t be naive. The reality is, on the jury forum, it should be "proven or not proven." It`s not what happened. It`s whether it can be proven or not.
BLOOM: That`s not what it is on the form. It`s guilty or not guilty. That`s what you would like to see. But of course the trial --
BLOOM: And it`s insulting to the justice system for you to say otherwise.
EIGLARSH: Lisa, reality. Reality is guilty means that the case was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
BLOOM: That`s correct.
O.J. is innocent. Is that what you`re telling me? That`s what you believe? Factually, that`s what you believe?
BLOOM: I don`t know where you go through guilty, not guilty, to there`s no issue of truth in the trial.
PINSKY: All I know, and I`m still -- Mark, Ryan, Lisa, thank you. I`m still nauseated. It didn`t settle my stomach to have that conversation.
BLOOM: I tried.
PINSKY: Thank you, though.
Listen, we have seen a range of emotion as the prosecution ripped into Casey. We`ll look back at the past couple of weeks of drama.
And later, the defense takes center stage tomorrow. We`re going to keep a close eye on that. The pressure is on.
We`ve got more about this last-minute surprise witness. I am dying to figure out what this guy is going to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Premeditation is the essential element that distinguishes first-degree murder from second-degree murder. Any verdict of first-degree murder cannot be sustained. A reasonable hypothesis, of course, in this case is accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she has been missing.
Can you get someone here now? My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: You know, as we try to figure this thing out, I with you, the one most sympathetic figure for me in this entire experience has been Cindy Anthony. I just feel so, so sorry for that woman.
And the prosecution has taken us through some really seriously emotional circumstantial evidence and handed that to the jury. They talked about heart stickers, decomposing hair, the smell of death in the car.
But the question we have to all consider is, did they prove Casey murdered her child? Did George Anthony convince the jury of his innocence?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF ASHTON, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Attorney Lisa Bloom and criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh are back with me.
Now, when George answered that question, I, when I was watching it, thought to myself, well, he must have known that was coming, he seemed so dispassionate about it. Because if somebody had asked me that, and I had only heard the accusation a few hours before, I would be like, are you kidding me?
BLOOM: That`s interesting. Yes, you`re right. And he said -- I think his attorney even said that day, we knew this was coming.
PINSKY: They knew it was coming. OK.
BLOOM: Because they had gotten Casey`s psychological reports, and she made that allegation to some of her psychologists.
PINSKY: All right. So he knew it was coming.
BLOOM: So he knew it was coming, but nevertheless, people do say that. If you`re accused of some horrendous act, wouldn`t you rise up in horror and loudly say, "No, absolutely not, I didn`t do that"?
PINSKY: Well, particularly if it was a new accusation.
BLOOM: Everybody is different. And also, when you`re in a courtroom, and it`s in a high-pressure situation, you`re told to maintain the decorum. You`re admonished by your attorney, by the judges over and over, and sometimes that`s all you can do.
And by the way, maybe it`s true. I don`t know if it`s true or false.
PINSKY: That he had abused her?
BLOOM: Yes. I don`t know whether it`s true or false.
PINSKY: Well, even if it is true, that doesn`t really yet -- it`s just a distraction, it seems to me, from the primary issue of the case.
So, before I go to Mark, who I`m sure will want to poke holes in the prosecution`s argument, do you think they brought her close enough to the death to prove it?
BLOOM: Do I think the prosecution proved its case against her?
BLOOM: Yes, absolutely. I do think so. And here`s why.
My concern is, did they show premeditation? Because it certainly looks to me like she killed her daughter.
But that`s not murder. Every killing is not murder. Right?
Murder is with premeditation. So, did she do it intentionally rather than accidentally?
But I think the computer searches for chloroform and the other computer searches that were done indicate to me that she was thinking about it. That to me adds up to premeditation.
PINSKY: So, Mark, you had said in the past that perhaps they should embrace the fact that she`s not a good person, not a well person. Including the chloroform, and sort of bring that into the accidental death argument?
EIGLARSH: Well, here`s what I said all along. You don`t ignore the pink elephant in the room. She`s a liar. She has manipulated. She did some horrible things.
But the defense should argue, this was a tragic accident, and they should have left it at that. Where they screwed up, where this third-year lawyer, now I guess a sixth-year lawyer, screwed up, is going further, by being so detailed, by saying, and George did this, and then George did this, and then I know it`s hard for you to believe, but this is what he did. Most of those things have not been proven.
And granted, the defense hasn`t gone yet. But I don`t see how they can be proven. And now they have taken on this burden.
I think it was the weakest thing that they have done, the biggest mistake. It`s a rookie mistake that litigators do.
PINSKY: Well, do you think this new revelation, this new witness, is going to add something dramatic that, all of a sudden, we`re going to all change our minds about what happened here?
EIGLARSH: You know how I see him being a significant witness? If he is a tattoo artist, and he, like, advised her to get -- you know, she went to him and said, I want an out-of-ground pool -- an above-ground pool on my back with a big "No" over it, maybe he would be a compelling witness. Anything short of that, I don`t think he`s going to be compelling.
BLOOM: Or maybe Casey takes the stand because she has to.
PINSKY: Or what if this guy gets up here and said, George called me and asked me how to dispose of a body, there was an accident? What if the guy gets up and says that?
BLOOM: Oh, yes. Then the response is, right, and he is a convicted kidnapper, he is a convicted felon, nobody should believe him. That`s the response, and most people on the jury are not going to believe him.
PINSKY: So, guys, are we saying that even if this guy alleges something just over the top, outrageous like that, you still have got to put Casey on the stand?
BLOOM: I think they do if they want to prove their defense, that she died accidentally, George found the body, and Casey has been covering up for George all this time.
EIGLARSH: Because of what I said earlier, the big mistake they made by committing to this defense, they are damned either way. If they don`t put her on, there`s no one then to explain why she did all these horrible, ridiculous, abhorrent things.
And if they put her on the stand, your case now comes down to how they feel about your defendant. Holy cow. What a horrible place to be.
PINSKY: And it`s very clear that nobody feels very good about Casey.
BLOOM: The question is, do her defense attorneys believe this story? I mean, I wonder if she`s pulled the wool over their eyes, because supposedly, she`s a very convincing liar.
PINSKY: Oh, you`ve got to read the transcripts. I encourage anyone to read the transcripts of her interrogations.
I`m somebody who is used to being lied do by patients, and I was stunned.
PINSKY: I was stunned. It was a world class performance.
BLOOM: And that`s what I think happened here. I think she actually persuaded her attorneys. This is what happened.
PINSKY: I`ve got to go. She may have, and that would be very interesting.
Mark, last word. I`ve got about 10 seconds for you. What is it?
EIGLARSH: I don`t believe the defense lawyers believe her. If she had advanced that story three years ago, or any time during the three years, that the child drowned, then they would have told the public. But I think they waited. They manufactured this. And now this is what we`re getting.
PINSKY: All right. Here`s the deal. I`m going to have a big dinner for my attorney friends, Lisa, Mark, and Robin Sax is going to be joining us.
BLOOM: I`ll be there.
PINSKY: I am betting that she is not going to get on the stand. Are you guys going to take that bet against me?
BLOOM: She is not taking the stand. I`m on you side. There`s no way.
PINSKY: Mark, stand or not on the stand?
EIGLARSH: I`ll join you at dinner, but unfortunately I can`t bet against you on that. I don`t think she`s going to take the stand.
BLOOM: If she does, that will be the second biggest mistake the defense makes.
PINSKY: Got to go.
We`ve got more on that surprise witness, and we`ll be right back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASON: There has been in this case no evidence of premeditation presented to this jury or this court. There is a stacking of inferences, a stacking of speculation, but no evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was defense attorney Cheney Mason claiming that there is no direct, solid evidence proving when, where or how Caylee Anthony died.
Now, many of you have drawn your own conclusions about what happened in this case, so let`s get to the phones.
I`ve got Anne in Jacksonville.
What`s up, Anne?
ANNE, JACKSONVILLE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Anne.
ANNE: I was wondering if Caylee had done drugs on a regular basis, if she would have exhibited any cognitive or behavioral changes that perhaps Cindy or George could have picked up on.
PINSKY: Well, for sure. If you expose somebody to Xanax on a regular basis, obviously they are sedated, and they can have withdrawal.
It`s tough to see in children sometimes though. And it`s something that we hard -- we`re going to talk to the defense attorney formerly on her team later on tonight, and she was telling me that they would have been able to pick it up in her hair, and they tested for that, which is another piece of evidence that my old theory about the Xanax may not be quite as strong as I think.
Diana in Pasadena. What`s up there? Pasadena, California.
DIANA, PASADENA: Dr. Drew --
DIANA: -- I got sick to my stomach when I saw the pictures of that little girl`s body even though they were pixilated. I find this a profoundly sad case, and it has affected me physically because It`s so disturbing on multiple levels.
DIANA: Do you think that this is truly what Casey felt, or do you think it was another one of her acts?
PINSKY: Oh, no. I think that`s what`s so disturbing to all of us.
I mean, Diana, three times a night at least I sit at that desk since I started reporting this story and getting into it, I feel like throwing up. I feel nauseated. I feel like my insides are being twisted all around.
Yes, that one day that Casey felt like she was going to throw up, put yourself in that position. Again, I keep thinking I would be like Cindy, and I would want to throw up all the time. So for her to have a little bit of nausea, yes, no kidding.
All right. This is Jihan in Altadena, California.
What`s on your mind there?
JIHAN, ALTADENA: Hello. I am so sick and tired of these morally corrupt defense attorneys stating, where is the evidence? Are you kidding me?
Oh, and what about beyond a reasonable doubt? When you put together each piece of the puzzle, it points to no one but Casey Anthony. She had motive, opportunity, and her abundantly incriminating behavior after it was discovered that her child was missing.
PINSKY: I think you, my dear, you are the foreman for the court of public opinion. I think you`ve just articulated the way most people feel.
Sheila, North Little Rock, I guess you are. What`s going on there, Sheila?
SHEILA, NORTH LITTLE ROCK: Hi, Dr. Drew.
SHEILA: I`m wondering if we`ll ever hear testimony from Casey`s childhood friend. She has first-hand knowledge of Casey`s pet cemetery with heart-shaped stickers decorating the grave. We also have to wonder about the circumstances surrounding her (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: Yes, I completely agree. And I think we would have heard that from the prosecution if we were likely to hear that.
I`m surprised we didn`t hear more of that kind of thing. I was wondering, what was her childhood like and how -- but when we come back, I`ll tell you something. We`re going to talk to David Smith, and he`s a man whose former wife killed their children and then lied about it, very similar to Casey. And we`re going to see if she had behaviors perhaps that sort of led him to understand that this was somebody who was at risk forever for this sort of behavior. Or, was she -- the way that we`re hearing about Casey -- just a good mom, and this seemed out of the blue, no one knew it was coming?
We`re going to get his unique perspective on the Casey Anthony case, next.
PINSKY: David Smith`s ex-wife, Susan, was convicted of murdering their two boys, three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex. She apparently strapped them into their car and rolled it into the lake, drowning their children inside. They were there for nine days during which time Susan lied. She lied to her husband, she lied to the entire nation, about what really happened. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please -- I mean, please bring them home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The death penalty wasn`t the verdict. The jury, again, we respect that they took the testimony among themselves, and they came back with the verdict of life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: David Smith is with us. As well, we are re-joined by Attorney Lisa Bloom. She`s the author of "Think." Now, David, I apologize for dragging you through all this again, and I hope you`re OK with this.
DAVID SMITH, EX-WIFE KILLED THEIR TWO CHILDREN: I am, thank you.
PINSKY: OK. What was it like? You know, now, all of us are focused on the Anthonys and their family at the center of this media scrutiny. What was this like when you were going through it?
SMITH: It`s very stressful. It`s very emotionally draining.
PINSKY: Were you ever the subject of scrutiny? Did they try to put any blame over onto you the way they`re doing with George Anthony?
SMITH: Some at first, they did a little, but not very much.
PINSKY: And then, to be lied to by your wife so -- let`s call it vividly, so, so unabashedly.
PINSKY: How do you make sense of that? How did you -- to me, that`s just baffling. You just have to shake your head. Do you still feel like that or does it make sense now?
SMITH: Oh, no. I still don`t understand it today any more than I did then. I mean, you know, Susan was the last person I thought would have ever, you know, harmed Michael and Alex.
PINSKY: That`s my question. Was there evidence -- I mean, there`s a lot of similarities between Susan and Casey, right? Do you see those similarities?
SMITH: I see some of them.
PINSKY: Why don`t you share with me what you see as the similarities.
SMITH: The partying, you know? Susan was doing a lot of partying there towards the end.
PINSKY: And she actually was having an affair or something, right? Is that true?
SMITH: Yes, that`s correct.
PINSKY: And so, Casey, same thing, partying, lying, partying, lying, lies, lies, lies at the center of all of this.
PINSKY: But before that, did she show any evidence of -- did she hurt anybody before that? Did she lie repeatedly before that? Was she using drugs and alcohol before things unraveled?
SMITH: Dr. Drew, there was -- there weren`t any signs. There was nothing that I could have seen, that I saw, that would have led me to think she would have ever done what she did. She was a great mother up to the moment that she killed Michael and Alex.
PINSKY: There`s another similarity with what they`re saying about Casey potentially, interestingly. Do you talk to her now, Susan?
SMITH: No, I don`t.
PINSKY: Does anyone that do speak with her? Does she have any insight into what happened? Do you know?
SMITH: I don`t know of anybody who has talked to her, spoken with her.
PINSKY: Is it your sense that she`s just a psychopath or a sociopath and really had no feelings, at least, in that moment?
SMITH: I think she was just -- yes. I mean, she was very selfish.
PINSKY: But selfish to the point of killing children is something specially -- I mean, you need a special word for that. Selfish doesn`t quite apply. You know what I`m saying?
PINSKY: Lisa, let me ask you. You deal with criminals, and this is really what we`re talking about here. I mean, we toss around a lot of terminology when people discuss Casey Anthony, talk about sociopath and psychopath. That so we just come up in here and reference to Susan, but ultimately, we`re talking about criminals.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY: We`re talking about people who don`t have a conscience, right?
PINSKY: That`s a criminal.
BLOOM: Where you or I might think evil thoughts, but we don`t -- something stops us, and that something is our conscience.
PINSKY: Well, in my world, we think of that as the ability to appreciate that other people have feelings and agency (ph). Other people exist.
BLOOM: Right. Compassion for other people.
PINSKY: And what strange to me is that in Casey and Susan`s case, it looked like, it seemed to people around them, you`re smiling a little bit, it seemed like she had compassion.
SMITH: Yes. At first, right.
PINSKY: When you married her, that`s what you thought.
SMITH: Right. Absolutely.
PINSKY: You thought this is a woman who could love me. It felt like love.
SMITH: Yes. And someone that was, you know, very caring. Loving mother. All that.
BLOOM: There`s another similarity too, which is both of these women were willing to pin the blame on someone else. In Susan Smith`s case, some mysterious black guy --
BLOOM: Right? And in Casey Anthony`s Case, the Hispanic nanny, Zenaida, who never existed.
PINSKY: And let me just express a little, this is a separate from the outrage I have at the mother killing children, which is, again, unravels our sense of reality, but, anybody want to have a little disgust for blaming people with darker skin or blaming people with certain profile, whatever, I mean, that`s disgusting. And not enough is made of that, I think.
BLOOM: It is.
PINSKY: So, let`s point that out as yet another issue in Casey`s case that is just disgusting. Oh, my goodness. Here I am again, ready to vomit. I get my insides twisted all around. David, I almost don`t know what to say, because I feel kind of like you in that it seems like this is still pretty mysterious to you. Is it not?
SMITH: Very much. I wish so much of the time that I could put some kind of reason or an answer to what Susan did, but there`s just not.
PINSKY: Given the similarities with Casey, do you have any sense of the Casey Anthony case? Do you have any instinct about it given what you`ve been through?
SMITH: I see a lot, you know, what`s in the Anthony case as with Susan, and, you know, I personally feel that, you know, she`s guilty. I think she did have --
PINSKY: So, even though you can`t get your head around somebody doing something like that, it feels like the same thing to you?
SMITH: Yes, it does.
SMITH: You know, and you were talking about similarities. And, you know, Susan`s attorneys were saying that, you know, she was molested by her step-father.
PINSKY: Which is true.
SMITH: Which was true.
SMITH: And, you know, they`re saying that --
PINSKY: About Casey.
SMITH: Right. Casey`s father molested her. But Dr. Drew, no matter what happens in your life, and I`m not making light of what happened to Susan and Casey.
SMITH: But you don`t kill your children.
PINSKY: That`s right. We`re actually looking at pictures of your children alongside of you.
SMITH: You don`t take it out on your children.
PINSKY: No. And, we`re looking at pictures of your children here that is -- what were your children name again?
SMITH: Michael and Alex.
PINSKY: Alex. That`s actually Caylee we`ve been watching here, and now, we`re showing Michael and Alex here. Yes. It`s funny. It`s one of the saddest, saddest indictments of humans you could possibly imagine. And I want to think better things of people, and I`m sure you do, too. That`s why it`s so hard -- it really makes me want to cry. It`s just too much.
And it sort of leaves me speechless, but I do appreciate, David, you coming out and being willing to talk about this, because we are trying to make sense of this Casey Anthony thing. It is starting to look like the same kind of thing. And you, Lisa, you say yes, and you`ve seen situations like this.
BLOOM: No doubt. I mean, it is unfathomable, a mother taking the life of her own child, and both of these cases so that they could party, be with the boyfriend.
BLOOM: Just get a divorce or just leave your kids with somebody and go have that life.
PINSKY: Listen, I deal with lots of sexual and physical abuse survivors, lots of drug addicts and alcoholics. They are not great parents, they do awful things, and they don`t kill the kids. OK. That`s what`s different about this situation. They may -- and the kids may end up in the foster system, they may do horrible things in front of their kids. They may not be good parents and make me very angry, but they do not kill their kids.
This is a very special kind of crime, and it`s why I think we all can`t look away. David, thank you for coming and talking about it with us. I know it`s hard. And Lisa, thank you as well for staying with me.
Coming up, insight from another member of my jury. How would she vote if she were deciding Casey`s fate now.
And next, the defense has to come up big. How are Casey Anthony`s attorneys planning apparently to really sink the state`s case against her? I`m just fascinated with what it is they think they`re going to say. You know, the court of public opinion, although, you know, it`s innocent until proven guilty in the court of law, the court of public opinion I think has already made -- has already decided this case, but let`s try to figure it out. Let`s keep a somewhat open mind to the possibility that something profound will come forward. Be back after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: But Mr. Kronk is a morally bankrupt individual who actually took Caylee`s body and hid her. And anything that you derive from the scene off the suburban drive is completely unreliable, because of the actions of Mr. Kronk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA LYON, FMR. CASEY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The point that I`m trying to make here is that the evidence of murder isn`t there. The evidence that she committed murder isn`t there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Before I respond to that, I want to again thank David Smith for joining us today, and remind those of you at home that David has -- I was talking to him off the air before he left, and he wanted me to remind people that he has moved on in his life. He`s married now. He has two children, and he assured me that he has a very strong spiritual foundation that carried him through what would be something that -- I mean, I don`t know how someone survives. He`s a very strong man.
OK. What you just heard there was former insider on the Casey Anthony defense team, Andrea Lyon. She told us here just last night that the prosecution did not prove that Casey is a killer. Tonight, a new name surfaces. According to report, he is a witness that the defense may call. His name is Vosco Thompson, a felon with a violent past, a kidnapper.
I`m back with Attorney Lisa Bloom. Also joining us is another former member of Casey Anthony`s defense team, Linda Kenney Baden. Linda, there might be a link between George and --
LINDA KENNEY BADEN, FMR. CASENY ANTHONY DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good evening.
PINSKY: Good evening. There`s apparently a link between George and this Vosco character. What could that mean for the defense?
BADEN: Well, you know, I was reading it just before I came, Dr. Drew., and what I found interesting is when the defense investigator sought to question him, he immediately called the police. He called -- and I don`t know whether it`s the investigators on this case that were handling the investigation into Caylee`s disappearance and ultimate discovery of her body or whether it was somebody that he had contact with.
So, that, for me, would raise hackles. If there are four phone calls either to or from George and him on July 15th, you certainly want to know. It may mean nothing. Then again, it may mean something, but until somebody is allowed to question him, we won`t know.
PINSKY: Wait, did you say that this man called the police when people began coming after him as part of the investigation? And if that`s what you said, what does that mean to you? It doesn`t mean anything to me.
BADEN: Well, no, actually, what`s been reported -- and, you know, I`m not in the inside, so I don`t know if it`s true is that he immediately called law enforcement once the defense investigators called to get an interview.
PINSKY: What does that mean?
BADEN: As to what he was talking to George Anthony about. We don`t know what it means. We simply don`t know. But the point is, why would he call law enforcement when somebody is trying to just interview him as to George Anthony? He had to know something. And if he called law enforcement, meaning his own contacts, it may mean nothing.
But if he called someone like Yuri Melich (ph) or somebody on the case, it may mean that the police had interviewed him, and for some reason, he doesn`t want to talk to the defense. It raises a hackle that has to be investigated.
PINSKY: Hang on, Linda.
BLOOM: What we do know is because we have a statement from George Anthony via his attorney that George Anthony doesn`t know Vasco. He hasn`t recall ever speaking with him. He never got a phone call from him --
PINSKY: Wait, wait, wait. What Lisa just held up here, I`m going to hold this up, the evidence that Lisa has presented is a press release for us.
BLOOM: It`s not evidence.
PINSKY: It`s a press release for us.
BLOOM: No, it`s a statement, though.
PINSKY: It`s a statement for the press, not for the court, though.
BLOOM: No, absolutely. It`s not admissible in court.
PINSKY: What does it mean to you that this guy doesn`t call an attorney, he calls the cops when somebody comes look around for investigating a murder case?
BLOOM: Well, maybe, he`s concerned. He`s concerned. This is a guy with considerable experience with law enforcement. Let`s put it that way. He`s a convicted felon. He doesn`t want to misstep. Maybe he wants a deal.
PINSKY: Why didn`t he call an attorney?
BLOOM: He wants a deal.
PINSKY: Why didn`t he call an attorney?
BLOOM: Because he can`t get a deal from a private attorney. You get a deal with law enforcement. Maybe, he`s got outstanding charges, right? So, he`s got something to work with. He`s got something to play.
PINSKY: Oh, my gosh.
BLOOM: Sophisticated convicted felons know that.
PINSKY: Got it. OK. See, I`m not one of those, so I didn`t know that. All right.
BLOOM: Commit a few felonies, and you`ll get more experience with this, Drew.
PINSKY: Both of you guys I`m calling -- after we all go out to dinner when Casey doesn`t take the defense stand.
BLOOM: Don`t commit any crimes.
PINSKY: OK. Let`s take a look at two more possible defense witnesses. This is Roy Kronk and his ex-wife, Crystal Sparks. Now, Roy is the meter reader who called 911 after discovering Caylee`s remains. And if you remember in the defense`s, I guess, opening statement, they alleged that he staged Caylee`s remains in the woods. This, again, here I go again, I`m getting disgusted. It happens at least three or four times a night.
Crystal Sparks alleges Kronk physically attacked her. That may or may not be true. Will her testimony prove that Kronk is not to be trusted? Lisa, now, we suppose to make much of the Kronk character and what they`re alleging with him. To me, it seems like a desperate distraction.
BLOOM: Well, it`s always a terrible thing if a woman is physically abused, but the question at trial is, is this relevant? I`d be surprised if the judge lets it in, because, usually, this kind of testimony only comes in if it shows somebody`s credibility is damage. For example, a perjury conviction, fraud, lying.
BLOOM: That`s the kind of thing that judge wants to hear about. We can`t get into side trials about everybody else`s private and personal life. So, I`d be surprised if this comes in.
PINSKY: Linda, you agree with that?
BADEN: Well, no, no. Here`s the problem with that, and that`s why the defense interviewed -- and I`m not giving you any secrets, Dr. Drew. It`s been in the public domain that she said that --
PINSKY: I would like some secrets if you have any.
PINSKY: Just you know, we`re not expecting some secrets from you, but if you have any, this will be the time to give them.
BADEN: Can I give you a secret, Dr. Drew? Mob justice does not work. We learned that with lynch mob. So, let`s not worry about public opinion. Let`s look what we have at this case. That`s the secret, OK?
PINSKY: All right.
BADEN: But she testified that Roy Kronk, apparently, I believe if I recall correctly had tied her up with duct tape and he used duct tape. So, I think it`s going to surround whether or not the duct tape was on the bag, holding it together, or whether it was placed there after Roy Kronk found the body. That`s what I would surmise by the reason that they`re going to call him.
BLOOM: Duct tape would be highly relevant.
PINSKY: All right. So, that becomes interesting. And by the way, this whole duct tape thing is a murder weapon. Children will pull off duct tape, unless, they duct tape their hands and feet and their mouth.
BLOOM: Unless, they`re chloroformed first.
PINSKY: Right. The chloroform becomes really the problem. I don`t understand why people aren`t talking about that.
BADEN: But both of you with the chloroform, I mean, you know, Dr. Drew, you`re a doctor. You know how long it takes to get a medicine approved, a new drug approved. Here the chloroform depends on a research scientist who testified nowhere in the world before about his research, about this chloroform.
That`s why it becomes important to the prosecution. If you didn`t have that, you wouldn`t have any prosecution theory about how she died. Because you`re right, she could have (ph) pulled the duct tape off.
PINSKY: There was a computer search about the chloroform, too, and the Zany the nanny, which Zany is a street name for Xanax. It`s just it.
PINSKY: It`s just it (ph).
BADEN: But it`s not in her hair. It`s not in her hair. Dr. Drew, it`s not in her hair. Scientifically, it would be in her hair.
BLOOM: That was found six months later.
BADEN: It would still be in her hair, Lisa, the drugs. That`s why they test it.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. Interesting. Another possible defense witness is Robyn Adams. OK? Now, Robyn is Casey`s former so- called jailhouse inmate and pen pal. Casey alleges sexual abuse in letters to Robyn. Linda, Robyn has been called a snitch. What do you make of her as a witness?
BADEN: Well, the one thing we learned from the innocence project is that people -- most of the times there are snitches, usually, it results in wrongful convictions because as Lisa points out, they`re looking for something. They`re looking for a deal. So, any good prosecution should not rely on a snitch. And this prosecution, they notice didn`t call her.
PINSKY: Interesting. All right. Lisa, thank you for staying with me through all this. I managed not to actually present my dinner to you all.
BLOOM: I`m glad.
PINSKY: And Linda, thank you again for joining us. I really appreciate you being here.
BADEN: Thank you, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: And as I said, I am expecting some day some secrets from you, and maybe, you`ll be kind enough to offer some insights and some secrets.
BADEN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Next, I`m going to go -- you`re quite welcome.
I`m going to go back to my jury that I love going to at the end of the program. Now, today, we`re going to talk to the sharpie lady. Remember the sharpie lady? We`re going to talk to her daughter. This Barney Fife sharpie lady crew keeps growing and growing, and they`re making order out of the chaos there outside of the courtroom. You`re going to want to hear what the sharpie lady`s daughter has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Provided these are just being entered into evidence, this is not going to be going into the sniff test area.
BAEZ: These are just going into evidence. Any further use we might put them to, we would obviously proffer to the court for full argument before we would go into that. We`re not doing that at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": You don`t want to miss my show tonight, Drew. We`ll preview the defense`s argument in the Casey Anthony trial and talk about whether her attorney has any more surprises up his sleeve.
Also, Gene Simmons and Shannon Tweed drop by, and Shannon walks off the set. It`s been done before. (INAUDIBLE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: What record of evidence is there of an accidental death that the court can look at that`s in the record?
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As of this point, there is no record evidence of accidental death. There is no exclusion, however, of the reasonable hypothesis of accidental death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But, nonetheless, a little girl is dead. Casey Anthony case is tough for all of us, but it cuts extra deep for those of us that are parents because this trial is about the opposite of parenting. And on display was even not considering a murder, horrible parenting was on display here.
My next guest dedicates her life to kids. She is part of my jury tonight. Her name is Amy Zack. She was at the trial on Monday. Amy, I understand you`re part of the sharpie pride brigade. Tell me about that.
AMY ZACK, DR. DREW "JUROR": I am. My mom is the sharpie lady. I find it amazing that she was able to do what law enforcement and security refused to do. She and in hand with one sharpie marker were able to take control of the line, and bring the focus back where it should be, and that`s on justice for Caylee Anthony, and not on chaos that ensues with people stampeding across the street.
PINSKY: I totally agree with you. It`s so peculiar to me that a little civilization has evolved amongst the people. I hope we can show the tape of the running of the Pamplona humans that was part of the nightly sort of scene out there, morning scene outside the courtroom. I hope that my producers can come up with that and resurrect it, because order has been restored from the chaos.
And I want to thank your mom for that. I`ve had her on the show before. But now that you`ve been in the courtroom a bit, how do you, guys, have time for this, Amy? I think, that`s what people at home want to know. How does that work?
ZACK: I am a stay at home mom to two beautiful little girls, but my husband was off on Monday, and I decided that I, you know, wanted to be a part of history. I wanted to see this.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. And now tell me this. You`re in the courtroom. You get to see what we do not. You know, one thing people ask me what do I think of Casey and her parents, I say if I`m not in physical proximity, it`s really hard to use your instincts. You`re there. What`s your instinct on this?
ZACK: I was blown away by Casey`s coldness. You know, besides the fact of everything that`s happened with her daughter, she was totally unaffected by her parents sitting, you know, feet away, and she couldn`t care less that she is, you know, essentially ruined their lives, that they are distraught every day. You know, somber, and she is giggling. It would appear to be flirting, and seems totally unaffected by it. And I am amazed by that.
PINSKY: There we go. We`ve got the running of the humans there. Running of the courtroom -- what should we call those folks? It`s something else. Yes. Just one quick -- one last quick question. I got about 10 seconds for you. How does she respond to Cindy? I mean, that`s the most sympathetic character. Did you see Casey responding to her? In just a brief second, can you tell me that?
ZACK: No. She walked right in the courtroom and walked right over and put her hands up by her head and never looked over.
PINSKY: Wow. That just -- I can`t imagine that, but thank you all for watching. More when the defense gets a chance to tell their case tomorrow.