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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Judge Scolds Both Sides
Aired June 20, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then he hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both molest her. Tot mom gets a sexy tattoo in the days after Caylee goes missing, then throws a pizza party at the tattoo shop.
Bombshell tonight. After a defense expert claims little Caylee`s brain literally degenerates to dust, defense attorney Baez shows a shot of the tiny skull cut open. On cue, tot mom turns on the waterworks and cries, briefly.
Then torpedo to the defense. After the defense plays dirty, apparently trying to hide evidence, the judge brings down the hammer, threatening to hold tot mom`s defense in contempt. And we learn the only evidence the defense has of an accidental back-yard drowning is that there`s a pool in the Anthonys` back yard. Yes, that`s it, according to the defense`s lead expert.
Then we learn the defense medical examiner charges a staggering $5,000 a day, but doesn`t even know the victim`s name. Hey, if you don`t know by now, FYI, the name is Caylee, 2-year-old Caylee Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you, sir, open the skull?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did not cut open the cranium?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To not open the head I think is a failure, shoddy autopsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You provoked it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize. I didn`t mean to provoke you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a skull. When a skull is opened, it is opened like I`m opening this skull now. So in other words, a saw is used to saw the skull all the way around and to remove the cap on the outside (INAUDIBLE) the inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It must have been a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is the only logical conclusion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could not tell you what the manner of death is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What time is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s 9:45 (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s 9:46 (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That shows that the two of you will never agree on anything and will never interpret anything the same way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After a defense expert claims little Caylee`s brain literally degenerates to dust, defense attorney Baez shows a shot of the tiny skull cut open. And on cue, tot mom turns on the waterworks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aren`t the facts always extremely important?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything has to be fitting together like a jigsaw puzzle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your understanding of the events of the last time Caylee Marie Anthony -- that`s the victim in this case -- was seen alive?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know that I had any facts on when she was alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape was not put on the face before decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no reason to put duct tape on the face after they die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brain has dissolved, ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner`s personnel took the hair that was not on the skull and placed it there for the purposes of this photograph?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wouldn`t be the first time, sir. I can tell you some horror stories about that. Somebody rearranged it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Enough is enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The objection is that the opinion that is being offered by the witness at this time is not contained in his report.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you share that opinion with anyone on the defense team?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to me that this was quite intentional. This was not some inadvertent slip. This was not some sub-issue of a major issue. It was not inadvertent. The question is, is whether or not Ms. Anthony should be punished as a result of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the very latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. And what a day it has been in the courtroom.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, with legal show "In Session." She`s there at the courthouse. Jean, it seems to me like the judge is bringing down the hammer on tot mom`s defense by threatening contempt. And it also seems to me that the defense has been playing dirty pool with the evidence, trying to hide what the experts are going to say.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": And Judge Belvin Perry said, You know, folks, this is not my first rodeo. Nancy, there`s so much history to this! It didn`t just start today. The judge made rules, and rules are to be followed and deadlines are to be followed. Last -- early this year, in February, the judge issued an order, said, Look, defense, if you don`t put in your expert reports and depositions the opinion of your experts, they can`t give them. That`s it. They can`t give them. And advertently or inadvertently, the defense has tried to do that. And that`s where it all begins today.
GRACE: And it`s not just once, it`s many times. Now, what you are seeing right now is the defense`s lead expert, Werner Spitz, on the stand. And when he was on cross-examination, people, let me tell you this, he didn`t even know the victim`s name. The state had a field day. Then it comes out he charges $5,000 a day. Ouch! You know who`s paying for that? Us, the taxpayer.
Out to Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Drew, isn`t it true that he couldn`t even remember getting the name straight for Caylee, the victim in this case? And he said all he really knew about the case is that -- where the little girl was found and that she didn`t have a baby-sitter or that somehow the baby-sitter was involved?
DREW PETRIMOULX: Yes, he didn`t seem to have a very good grasp on the details of the case, couldn`t say who she was last with and the circumstances of -- really, of her disappearance, which is something that the prosecution was able to hammer on.
I did think that the doctor was good when he challenged the autopsy and said that the skull should have been taken in half, calling it a botched autopsy. I think he was credible there...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait!
PETRIMOULX: ... under defense questioning, but...
GRACE: Hold on, Drew. Let`s just take a closer look at what you`re spouting off tonight. You`re saying that Werner Spitz, the defense expert, was correct in saying the skull should have been cut in half to look inside. Now, let`s take a look at what Spitz says he found once he did that. He says he found degenerated brain matter, which looked to be like black dust, settled on the left side of the skull, correct?
PETRIMOULX: Yes. And the prosecution made the point that it could have been sediment from being out in the...
GRACE: That`s my point.
PETRIMOULX: ... in the (INAUDIBLE) But look, this is not what I`m saying...
GRACE: Well, you know...
PETRIMOULX: ... is that he was right...
GRACE: Drew, I didn`t finish!
PETRIMOULX: ... to call into question...
GRACE: Drew! Put Drew up, please! I want to see Petrimoulx! Drew, then the state brings out he didn`t even test the sediment. He doesn`t know what it is. For all it could be -- it could be silt from when Tropical Storm Fay lifted the body and then set it back down. He went to all this, cutting the skull open, and then he didn`t test what he found? So what good was cutting the skull open, Drew?
PETRIMOULX: Well, I`m not agreeing with him that the state`s autopsy was botched. What I`m saying is I think he did a good job of trying to instill that reasonable doubt in jurors, that he was a good witness for the defense. I will say, though, when the prosecution took over, he made some points as far as some of the things that the medical examiner...
GRACE: To Dr. Vincent DiMaio, former chief medical examiner in Bexar County, forensic pathologist, joining us tonight out of San Antonio. Dr. DiMaio, thank you for being with us.
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, FMR. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BEXAR COUNTY: Thank you for inviting me.
GRACE: Dr. DiMaio, I know that you have performed thousands of autopsies. Is it general protocol to cut a skull open during an autopsy?
DIMAIO: Only when you have a brain in it. I mean, you have skeletal remains. There are different rules for skeletal remains. There are no standards that say you have to cut open a skull when you have a skeleton. And don`t forget, the skull was examined not only by Dr. Garavalia (ph), but by physical anthropologists. It was X-rayed. And when it was opened by the defense forensic pathologist, he found nothing. So what`s his complaint?
GRACE: That is my point, Dr. DiMaio, exactly. Now, if Spitz had cut the skull open and had made a finding, not even a significant finding, a finding to some benefit to either side, then I would understand why he attacked the state`s medical examiner. But here he cuts the skull open, he claims the state medical examiner, Dr. G., has made this horrendous mistake. But then we learn absolutely nothing except him grandstanding on the stand with this fake skull. I don`t understand it, DiMaio.
DIMAIO: Yes, it`s just nonsense. It`s nonsense. And you know, there are no standards on that. I was on the committee that drew up standards for the forensic autopsy, and this is not in the standards.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight at the courthouse, Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor, WFTV legal analyst, Alex Sanchez, renowned defense attorney joining us tonight out of New York, Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Bill Sheaffer, now that we`ve broken down what, if anything, was gained by cutting open Caylee`s skull, we learn nothing was learned, yet he is still attacking the state`s medical examiner, saying it was shoddy workmanship.
BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: We learned nothing from Dr. Spitz. If anything, we learned was a new word, at least I did, kerfuffle. His testimony was a kerfuffle. This is a doctor who had some renown in his day. He should have hung up his cleats about two games ago.
The bottom line was, is this medical examiner came of as credible. She maintains her credibility. And his nutty professor theory that somehow the duct tape was placed on the skull after Caylee was skeletonized -- crazy.
GRACE: And back to you, Jean Casarez. When the skull was opened up in court, the pretend skull that Werner Spitz is waving around on the stand, and when they show -- publicly show photographs of Caylee`s skull cut open, which I think was wrong -- I think it was wrong to do that -- what was tot mom`s response?
CASAREZ: She turned away. She absolutely turned away. But Nancy, she had to listen that Dr. Spitz went to the Bryant (ph) Funeral Home in Orlando, Florida, and there is where he found the remains of Caylee, and there is when he took the saw out and cut open her skull.
GRACE: And we learn, on cue, tot mom turns on the waterworks and begins crying -- briefly.
We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest after another courtroom day in the murder one trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For (INAUDIBLE) for manner of death, homicide, suicide, not sure the cause of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you from the evidence, sir, rule out accidental death?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. A pool in the house creates a possibility of drowning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the case of the state of Florida versus...
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Casey Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to find the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant has entered a plea of not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Marie Anthony, that`s the victim in this case.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) a tale of two cities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very big red flag for homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The glue was almost gone and the duct tape was no longer sticky.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Duct tape was perhaps placed there to hold the lower jaw in place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why didn`t you wrap your pigs in a blanket?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we`re going to play this game...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The has court made it clear that this is not a game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... then I`m going to play a game. All of this, folks, it is going to stop or you will be working some very fierce (ph) days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the murder one trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, thrown away like trash, triple-bagged in black, heavy-duty trash bags, thrown in a makeshift pet cemetery where tot mom used to hang out when she was a teenager, smoke, meeting with her friends, be angry at her parents.
We learn that that makeshift pet cemetery had degenerated largely into a dump of sorts, and that is where her precious little girl was found many months after she first went missing.
We are taking your calls live. To Cathy in Indiana. Hi, Cathy. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, we love you. We watch you every night. My 84-year-old mother wouldn`t have a night without you.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you feel about Baez and Casey`s relationship? I guess working in a mental hospital that I did some work in for about two years, a long, long time ago, I watch body language, I watch how people look at each other. And to me, there`s something there that just says something`s up between those two. I hope not, but...
GRACE: Well, Cathy in Indiana, this is what I`ve learned. Remember when tot mom was arrested for the bad checks that she wrote on her friend`s account just before she was arrested for suspicion of murder? And she was out on bond. She would go, often having elaborate ruses so the press cannot follow her, to Baez`s office. And she stayed there all day, for hours and hours every day.
Remember, this was really the only place that she could freely speak because it was entirely possible that her phone, her parents` phone, their cell phones, the house, the car could easily have been bugged. But you can`t do that in an attorney`s office. So there she could speak freely with her parents, her family, her lawyer. And she spent a lot of time with Baez, often answering the telephones like a secretary, we have learned.
So whatever relationship was forged was forged during that time. And we also know they have a relationship where they spat, like very, very close friends. So I would say that that is their relationship. Agree or disagree, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: I agree. I definitely agree. I think Casey looks up to him. I think she admires him. I think she`s gotten upset at him at various times, but I think they`re close. And I think professionally, they`re bonded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This court does not make threats.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Shut up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing on one leg. Please, let`s just stick with the facts and be professional.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. OK. OK. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this does not look like -- yes, I do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez, this is not my first rodeo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you see the strands of hair draped over the skull?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not going to happen here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But I do not see that this picture is identical with the picture that you just showed me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I couldn`t disagree with you more, Your Honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Mr. Baez...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why do they look different? Because somebody rearranged it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both sides have engaged in what I call game playing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not a game.
It`s not game.
It`s not a game.
It`s not a game.
It`s not a game.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. And today, the defense revealed after all the big talk in opening statements, we find out through their main defense expert, their highly paid medical examiner, Werner Spitz, who admits he makes $5,000 a day, that the only evidence they have for the defense theory of an accidental pool drowning in the Anthony back yard is that the Anthonys do have a pool in their back yard.
OK. Now, please tell me, Matt Zarrell, that I`m wrong. Please tell me they`ve got more than that.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, unfortunately, Nancy they don`t. Prosecutor Jeff Ashton cut a huge hole in the defense`s case when it was revealed the swimming pool is the only evidence of accidental drowning. The other thing to note, Nancy, is Werner Spitz testified he believed the body...
GRACE: Wait a minute, Matt. Wait. Wait. Elizabeth, can you please stop showing me Werner Spitz and that pretend skull like it is Caylee`s skull? Can you do that? Out of all the photos we have of little Caylee, can I see photos of her in life and not that grandstanding by the paid medical examiner?
OK, back to you, Matt Zarrell. Go ahead.
ZARRELL: Spitz even admitted during cross that he believed the body did decompose in the wooded area, which conflicts the whole defense theory that Roy Kronk dumped the body to collect the reward.
GRACE: That about that, Alex Sanchez? There goes the accidental drowning theory, right down the tubes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duct tape was attached to the face. There would have been DNA from the face on the duct tape.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Indication of a homicide.
CASEY ANTHONY: All you have is speculation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a murder case.
CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: This was not some inadvertent slip.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner of death in this case is homicide.
PERRY: Cut the comments out.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Person who was in the back of my granddaughter`s car is not my granddaughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee was almost 3 when she died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what the manner of death is?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With duct tape over her nose and her mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The duct tape was attached to the face, there would have been DNA from the face on the duct tape.
PERRY: This was quite intentional.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The manner of death.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I would not be able to tell you.
PERRY: This is not a game.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I can tell you some horror stories.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: You will be wishing to exercise all of our depositions?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two years later, detecting the foul odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s atrocious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the trunk of that car.
BAEZ: For any potential experts where the state has failed to do so.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There is no evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The skull was intact, in other words, undamaged.
CINDY CASEY: That Casey has ever done any harm to her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no scientific basis.
PERRY: Enough is enough.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ashes to ashes.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County, Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
Today, the judge brings down the hammer on the defense after apparently he catches them playing dirty pool, apparently hiding evidence or attempting to hide evidence from the state.
Natisha Lance, in court today, doesn`t it boil down to he won`t give the name of witnesses or won`t give the experts final opinion, then he wants to call the expert at the last minute without having -- giving the state the chance to prepare?
I mean, these names and a summary of their testimony was supposed to be handed in weeks and weeks before trial.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. It all boils down to opinions that are supposed to be in these reports, which the deadlines were long before the trial had began.
The deposition was taken for William Rodriguez, that was on the end of court on Saturday. But the state said they didn`t have enough time to review that deposition. So now we`re going back again, trying to figure out exactly when this witness will be able to testify.
GRACE: And, again, we understand that tomorrow is D-day on the defense`s big witness, the lottery ticket, the golden ring they`re trying to grab, the possibility of placing reasonable doubt in the jury`s mind.
That witness, a convicted felon, convicted for a violent crime of kidnapping, arrested on other offenses. He was here, speaking to me on Friday night. The alleged connection to a convicted felon.
There you see Vasco Thompson, who told me, to my face, he has never met George Anthony, has never talked to George Anthony, but the defense says his phone number pops up on George Anthony, father George`s phones.
Why would George Anthony, around the time of Caylee`s discovery of her remains, be calling a convicted felon? Are they alleging a connection with a felon to George Anthony, suggesting he hired this guy to hide the body, or, worse, is that where they are headed?
Unleash the lawyers. Bill Sheaffer, Alex Sanchez, Penny Douglas Furr.
Penny Douglas Furr, will it work?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Calling the gentleman in? It could work. It depends on whether the jury believes him and what was the felony of which he was convicted.
The state relies on convicted felons every day in trials across this country, Nancy. And they get convictions.
GRACE: I`ll tell you, well, the defense is calling a convicted felon, Alex Sanchez, to suggest that George Anthony may have hired him or used him in some way, to hide Caylee`s body.
Will it work, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s a perfectly legitimate defense. If the defense seeks to advance it.
GRACE: Put him up.
SANCHEZ: If this guy is a convicted felon what on earth was he doing with George Anthony`s telephone number?
GRACE: Wouldn`t it have to be true?
SANCHEZ: And why did he call George Anthony? I find that rather peculiar. And I have heard no legitimate explanation for that event. So why shouldn`t he call this person as a witness?
GRACE: OK. Sanchez, you said you think it will work. Wouldn`t it have to be true? Doesn`t that bother a tiny bit that it`s not true?
SANCHEZ: Well, I think it -- I think it`s in dispute that this fellow had George Anthony`s number and that a number came to George Anthony`s house and it was from his telephone. That`s not in dispute. The question is why does that exist at all? Why does this convicted felon in jail, wherever he`s from, have George Anthony`s telephone number?
GRACE: You know what? You know what --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Isn`t that tie -- take the banner down. I want to see his tie.
Sanchez, isn`t that a tie given to you by your 17-year-old daughter for Father`s Day?
SANCHEZ: Yes, it was. It was given to me by Alana for Father`s Day. Thank you.
GRACE: And it`s beautiful. And she loves you. You know what? George Anthony will never get a gift from Caylee on Father`s Day. Never. Why? Because according to the state, tot mom killed her. And left her body to rot.
And here you`re trying to tell me that it is bogus story about this convicted felon and George hiding the body? You think it`s going to help? What`s it going to help?
SANCHEZ: No, I`m not saying that I agree with this. I think it`s a legitimate line of defense. Just like I think it`s a legitimate line of defense regarding that medical examiner, Spitz, that testified. I think he was very damaging, by the way, to the prosecution`s case. Contrary to what all the witnesses seem to be saying here.
He said the evidence was rearranged. He said he could not rule out accidental death.
GRACE: That`s a nice way of putting it. That`s spraying perfume on the pig.
SANCHEZ: He said there was -- he said that --
GRACE: He said that the state moved the evidence.
SANCHEZ: That`s right.
GRACE: That the medical examiner staged this scene. They`re part of a big conspiracy to get tot mom. That`s their defense. That they staged the scene.
SANCHEZ: Right. And if you have one juror who believes the scene was staged --
GRACE: You mean who falls for it?
SANCHEZ: This case is going down the tubes or at least a mistrial.
GRACE: What about it, Sheaffer?
BILL SHEAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: My god, are we watching the same trial for heaven`s sakes?
GRACE: I don`t think so. I don`t think so.
SHEAFFER: In the first place. I don`t think so either. And I`m going to tell you one thing, this person did not even have the telephone at the time he was supposed to be getting calls from George Anthony. He didn`t have that number until February of `09.
GRACE: 2009.
SHEAFFER: Come on.
GRACE: And the calls at issue were in July of 2008.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEAFFER: I`m tired of this debate. Nancy, this is defense flap- trap.
GRACE: I agree, Sheaffer. You`re preaching to -- you`re preaching to the choir, Sheaffer. Let me tell you --
SHEAFFER: Well, I just get tired of hearing it.
GRACE: No, wait.
SHEAFFER: I mean it`s not a legitimate line of defense. Spitz didn`t -- didn`t damage anyone. He looked like a fool, for heaven`s sakes.
GRACE: Can we get back to the convicted felon?
SHEAFFER: If you`d watch this trial from the very beginning -- sure, we can go back to --
GRACE: Let`s get back to the convicted felon. Stop railing against it, Sheaffer. Just pray. You know? I don`t know your religion. But just pray that they do bring on the convicted felon in front of the jury. That`s what I want. As much as I was irritated about the big lie they were trying to perpetrate, now the Lord has turned my around, Bill. Because I want them to put that convicted felon on the stand so he can tell the jury, like you told me to my face, he didn`t even have that phone.
When the phone calls in question were made, then I want to see what Baez has to say with his big mystery witness. That`s what I want. OK.
Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist, author of "My Therapist is Making Me Nuts."
Dr. Hillman, tot mom turns on the water works almost at will. It`s really amazing. When we saw photos in the courtroom of Caylee`s skull cut open by the defense witness, she turned away, it seems as if they actually practiced her, schooled her, about how to react in court.
MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": That`s one of the clinical signs of being a sociopath, Nancy. You are so correct in this regard. It`s to create an effect. It`s to create a false emotion. Oh, my, let me turn away. How dramatic. Every clinical criteria for sociopath is met by this woman, Casey Anthony. It`s so clear.
GRACE: What`s the difference between a psychopath or sociopath or are they interchangeable?
HILLMAN: They`re basically interchangeable in terms of the overall umbrella of psychopathology. There is no remorse. They`re callous, they`re manipulative. And something you brought up a very good point earlier in the show about the relationship between Casey and Jose Baez.
I think she completely manipulated and deceived him in those hours when they spent initially back in `08, when you brought this to the public perception, and I think he is way over his head. And I wouldn`t be surprised with all of his false starts that he`s not trying to lose this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: For those of us that will never be the same again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he started out small.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ashes to ashes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s out there somewhere.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Not far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will colonize a dead human.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to be just as she was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same way they do any other dead animal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dust to dust.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rotting body is starting to decompose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you read in the bible.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: There is a friction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Counsel is busy texting.
PERRY: Between attorneys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not relevant.
PERRY: Mr. Ashton, calm down. Enough is enough. Reducing your lunch hours.
CASEY ANTHONY: Are you kidding me?
PERRY: You will be working some very fierce days.
BAEZ: I couldn`t disagree with you more, your honor.
PERRY: I do not care if Mr. Baez is standing on his head, standing on one leg. Calm down. We`re going to play this game and I`m going to play a game. Mr. Ashton?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 9:25, sir.
PERRY: And Mr. Baez?
BAEZ: 9:26.
PERRY: The two of you will never agree on anything.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my god. Calling you guys, a waste. Huge waste.
PERRY: And this is not a game. Mr. Baez, this is not my first rodeo.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. We are here at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the murder, the alleged murder of this little girl, her 2- year-old little girl, Caylee.
The judge bringing down the hammer today on the defense, actually threatening to hold lawyers in contempt if they continued their grandstanding and their horseplay in the courtroom.
We are taking your calls live. Out to Edna in Florida.
Hi, Edna, what`s your question?
EDNA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. God bless your precious little babies for having a mother like you. You`re wonderful.
GRACE: Well, you know what, today was the first time I`ve ever had to put John David in time-out, so he may not agree with you. Lucy lives there. She`s in and out all the time. I think she wants to go to time- out. So we can make up afterwards. But it was very traumatic today. John David got time-out.
EDNA: I think it hurts you more than them.
GRACE: It did. It did hurt me more. It was all over a jumpy house. They wanted to go to a jumpy house, long story.
OK, what`s your question?
EDNA: I was wondering about the Gatorade bottle that they found.
GRACE: Yes.
EDNA: With the chlorine mixture and the syringe. Was that ever presented into court? And a shout-out to Bill Sheaffer, the best in Orlando.
GRACE: You heard that, Bill? OK.
This is my question, and I threw this at you, Jean Casarez. I don`t understand why that didn`t come in. At the crime scene, there was a Gatorade, a used Gatorade container, plastic. Inside was the interior roll of a paper towel roll, that cardboard cylinder. And inside the cylinder there was a syringe with traces of chloroform and testosterone there on the scene --
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Maybe that`s the key word right there.
GRACE: Yes. A few feet from Caylee`s body.
CASAREZ: Traces of chloroform. I think that`s the key right there. Because testosterone was the majority of the liquid. So I don`t think the prosecution wanted to maybe throw this red herring potentially at the jury so they could blame the chloroform on something else or believe there was another use for it.
GRACE: Well, the thing is, if it were mixed in with testosterone, I mean, come on, what`s the likelihood, the likelihood that you`re going to have a computer search on tot mom`s computer for how do you make chloroform at home, along with chloroform in high levels in her trunk, along with chloroform in a syringe on the scene where her daughter`s remains are found?
It`s astronomical. So if something else were combined with it, you know what, why ask why? I would have introduced that and let the jury make of it as they wish. To me, the odds of that being connected are staggering unless there is something about it that we don`t know.
Unless it`s being connected to some other crime, which I doubt. If it had been, the defense would be bringing it in. So you`re right, Edna, I`ve been wondering about that. Joining me, and to your -- to answer your question, no, it has not been brought into evidence.
To Heather Walsh Haney, forensic pathologist, joining us out of Florida, Gulf Coast University tonight, she`s joining us out of Naples.
Heather, thank you for being with us. Do you agree -- be honest, with the medical examiner, Spitz, the one that`s bringing in $5,000 a day on some of his cases? Do you agree with his characterization of the state autopsy as shoddy?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: I don`t. And as an anthropologist, working with these types of cases, and knowing Dr. G, knowing the experts from Florida that are involved, there was no manipulation of evidence.
Not to mention, when you have skeletonized remains, the medical examiner will defer to the anthropologist because every autopsy, every cut that you make alters the evidence. And alters what I can call from that evidence. Especially when it`s bone.
And when you`re dealing with somebody that`s 2 or 2 1/2, her bone is so very, very fragile. I think Dr. G. did the right thing, because she can also use tiny little mirrors, endoscopes. She can rely on her experts that she has around her, like Schultz and Warren, to help her make a decision based upon skeletal remains.
Her brain was no longer inside that brain case. She was absolutely right in her standard operating procedures.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, especially in light of the impression Spitz made on the stand.
CASAREZ: Nancy, when he started out, I thought he was a strong witness because he said several things for the defense that I think gives credence to their theory that the remains were moved and the fact that the duct tape wasn`t over the mouth. But I`ll just stop right now, they`re telling me to wrap, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. To the lawyers, Bill Sheaffer, Alex Sanchez, Penny Douglas Furr.
Bill Sheaffer, when a judge is threatening to hold you in contempt during a trial, says, OK, I`m going to reserve that ruling until the end of the trial, how does that affect your performance, if at all?
SHEAFFER: Well, it should make Mr. Baez abide by the rules, quit sandbagging the state. The judge was very wise because he`s not going to hold him in contempt during the trial, because that could have a chilling effect, could lead to an appeal. He`s going to wait until the conclusion of the trial. Mr. Baez just needs to follow the rules of the court.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, agree or disagree?
SANCHEZ: No, the prosecution rope a doped Baez by allowing Baez to go forward. And they knew what they were doing and then they were able to criticize him afterwards.
GRACE: Penny?
FURR: Nancy, I think that Florida is different from other states in that you can take depositions. I think the state made a mistake in not taking that deposition.
GRACE: OK, back to Jean Casarez, I think we`ve got your satellite problem fixed now. Go ahead and tell me the general impression that Warner Spitz made on the stand.
CASAREZ: Initially very good. But as he went on and said the remains decomposed at the site, then someone took them away and put the duct tape on the skeletal remains themselves and put it back, you say, wait a minute. The duct tape came out of the home. So did Roy Kronk take the remain over to the Anthony home, get the duct tape, put it on and then put it back. It made no sense.
GRACE: And also, Jean Casarez, isn`t it true that the defense bug expert completely debunks the defense theory on Kronk?
CASAREZ: That`s right. Because he agreed with what the bug expert for the prosecution said, three to five days in the trunk. After that, to the woods.
GRACE: And when we come back, Jason Byrd joining us taking your calls. Forensic entomologist to respond to what happened in court.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back. Straight out to Jason Byrd, forensic entomologist, University of Florida.
Jason, can maggots actually be used to data dead body?
JASON BYRD, FORENSIC ENTOMOLOGIST, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: They can provided you have the proper information and we`re better at it with some species than others. But the problem in this case is that the species that was recovered is one that is notoriously difficult to age.
And we have a group of insects from the car and a group of insects from the scene. And it`s difficult to come up with an age of the insects, and the resultant postmortem interval from either the car or the scene.
GRACE: Josh Byrd joining us.
And to Vito Colucci, former Stanford detective, private investigator.
Vito, all they`ve got to show their theory that there was an accidental pool drowning is that there`s a pool in the backyard? They`ve got to do better than that, Vito.
VITO COLUCCI, FORMER STANFORD DETECTIVE, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well - - say that again, Nancy? You know it was breaking up. I`m sorry.
GRACE: They`ve got to do better. They`ve got to have more evidence as to the pool drowning theory.
COLUCCI: OK. What I think you`re saying -- I can`t really make it out. I`m sorry.
GRACE: OK. No problem, Vito. As a matter of fact, I`ve got to go to our American hero. But don`t worry. We`re going to get to it. It ain`t over yet.
Let`s stop now and remember Marine Corporal Riley Baker, 22, Eureka, Missouri, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, a state wrestling champ, football star, loved hunting, fishing, friends. Remember for perseverance, bright smile, heart of gold.
Leaves behind his parents Grier and Katie, stepparents (INAUDIBLE) and Lisa. Sisters Megan, Christina, Sarah, brothers Christopher and David.
Riley Baker, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Uganda Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts and their U.S. friends, Ivan -- wave, Ivan. Wyclef, Rogers, Stella, Ronald, Allen, Sarah, Gilbert, Kristine, Benjamin, David, Mohamed, Harry, Elizabeth, Alex, Ryan and Josh.
They are here in the U.S. with the Methodist Church. The United Methodist Church. Welcome.
And happy anniversary to Florida friends Mel and Jack celebrating 68 years. Their goal? Ninety years together. Greatest joy besides each other? Their only grandchild, our superstar, Rachel.
Happy anniversary, Mel and Jack.
And happy birthday to piano superstar Andre Watts. What a talent.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be live at the Orlando courthouse in our own way, seeking justice for Caylee. And until then, good night, friend.
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