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Nancy Grace
Did Casey Anthony Copy Fellow Inmate`s Drowning Story?
Aired June 21, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she`s got nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both molest her.
Bombshell tonight. Outrage in the courtroom! In the last hours, the stunning defense emerges that tot mom didn`t leave 2-year-old Caylee`s remains behind, skeletonized, half buried in dirt, coyotes did it! Well, should somebody tell Baez Florida doesn`t have coyotes? And what`s next, a wild dingo did it, Bigfoot?
And also in last hours, revealed, did tot mom copycat her Caylee drowning story from a female inmate housed just feet away from tot mom, whose toddler boy drowned exactly how tot mom claims Caylee did? And tonight, we learn the state plans a rebuttal case to follow the defense. Do Anthony home computer IMs -- instant messages -- torpedo the defense claim that Caylee drowned? And to top it all off, is George Anthony`s alleged mistress set to take the stand for the defense?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Someone just said that Caylee was dead (ph) this morning, that she drowned in the pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: April Whalen, an inmate who may have had contact with Ms. Anthony -- apparently, her child died in a swimming pool.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: It was very upsetting last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was found by the child`s grandfather, who immediately administered CPR and called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drowning, 100 percent of the time, when the person finds the child, they call 911.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Ms. Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shortest period of time that the remains of Caylee Marie Anthony could have been at the scene two weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maximum of two weeks also?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not of the opinion that the body had only been there for two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now you`ve lost me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Photographs of me at the crime scene and of the -- not crime scene, excuse me, recovery site.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Outrage in the courtroom! In the last hours, the stunning defense emerges that tot mom didn`t leave 2-year-old Caylee`s remains behind, skeletonized, half buried in dirt, coyotes did it. Yes, that is what the defense told the jury today. Well, should somebody tell lead defense attorney Jose Baez that Florida doesn`t have coyotes?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find any products that were used to make chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No printouts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir. Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Containers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rags?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any receipts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chemistry kits?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn`t think that evidence was significant enough for you to get a search warrant?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even though we have these indications of chloroform in the trunk and in the computer, we`re still looking for a live child.
CINDY ANTHONY: She`s out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have nothing to indicate that she`s not alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After October 14th, we were (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you were no longer on October 14th, because you had charged her with murder...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... looking for a live child, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It does make a difference if the tape or item is in contact with decomposing flesh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tape was on the body, which was decomposing that would increase the chance that the DNA on the tape would also decompose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we took that carpet sample from the can, we saw chloroform as the major peak, largest peak.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unusually high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find any chloroform at any given time in the Anthony home throughout the entire time you`ve been investigating this case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone, a hip bone, was buried in four inches of what (INAUDIBLE) as muck, which I assume is what I assume you call wet humus -- wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dog buried -- a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do, as do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we`re not blessed with coyotes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: There you have it. The stunning defense emerges that it wasn`t tot mom, Caylee (SIC) Anthony, who left her daughter there, her remains to be found, skeletonized, half buried in the dirt, it was a coyote. That`s the tip of the iceberg about what happened today in a Florida courtroom.
We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courthouse day in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, half buried in weeds, vines, dirt. Recall Tropical Storm Fay came in after Caylee went missing, went missing. Experts say for the state that her body raised up with the water, then subsided down with sediment covering it.
We are taking your calls live from outside the courthouse. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." To top it all off, we`ve got tot mom just a few feet away from a female inmate whose toddler boy dies, drowns in the aboveground pool in the back yard. She can easily hear what this inmate is talking about. We have got that going on. Did tot mom copycat her story? And we`ve got the defense`s own expert telling the jury that a coyote may have left Caylee`s bones there that way.
What happened, Jean?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, let`s start with Dr. Jane Bog (ph), botanist for the defense. She testified that it was the leaf litter in that area -- that`s right, leaf litter, she testified, was the reason her conclusion and her opinion is that the remains may have only been there for two months. So Jeff Ashton said, OK, do you realize that the hip bone of Caylee Anthony was four inches deep in the muck? And her response was -- and I`m sure this can happen -- she said that a dog can bury a bone, or even a coyote. But as you said, Nancy, there are not coyotes in this part of Florida.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, renowned attorney Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta, George Parnham, the famed defense attorney who represented Andrea Yates and many other high-profile defendants.
Ray Giudice, you know what? Maybe it was a dingo dog or Sasquatch or Bigfoot or a martian! You know what? I really think -- you know, I see you laughing, but here`s the deal.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I...
GRACE: The defense can`t laugh. They`ve done it now. They can sit there and laugh in open court. What were they thinking?
GIUDICE: Well, you know, look...
GRACE: A coyote did it?
GIUDICE: We`re seeing is an entire team, not just Mr. Baez, their incompetency. These experts -- and they don`t have a lot to work with, the defense experts, but they are not prepared for their direct exam. The direct exams are sloppy. And as you know, a sloppy direct exam leads to an effective cross. And the prosecution has been eviscerating the defense experts.
GRACE: To George Parnham. Everyone, you know George Parnham. We have watched him many, many times. George, thank you for being with us. George...
GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes?
GRACE: ... maybe I overdid it when I would prepare direct and cross- examinations. Maybe I overdid it because I would write out by hand every question I intended to ask, and beside each question, if I wanted to introduce evidence related to that question, I would have it in the left- hand column.
GIUDICE: You know, it just seems as if these witnesses, as Raymond Giudice has pointed out, either are unprepared or they think they can pull the wool over the jury`s eyes. Come on, George! A coyote left her bones there?
PARNHAM: Well, Nancy, I agree with my colleague. I think that the witnesses obviously are unprepared. They have not been properly rehearsed, if you will, for potential questions by the prosecution on cross- examination. But that goes to the credibility of that one particular expert. And that expert, based on what I saw, is just unbelievable. And they`re going to have a tough time with that type of testimony, convincing this jury or hanging this jury at the end of this presentation of the evidence.
GRACE: To C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, joining us tonight from Phoenix. C.W., see, we`re all talking like lawyers, or at least they are, Raymond Giudice and George Parnham. And here`s the deal. The jury is not lawyers. The jury -- regular people like us. They`re listening. And they hear this defense witness say a coyote put Caylee`s bones there? A coyote`s running around the Anthony neighborhood? It`s a residential -- a nice residential community. There are not even coyotes in Florida. And this is an outrage, to say that a coyote somehow left Caylee`s remains there, half buried, her hip bone, in the muck, as Jean Casarez pointed out. It`s crazy! It`s offensive!
C.W. JENSEN, FMR. PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I`ve testified as a witness in dozens and dozens of high-profile homicide cases, and as a witness, you have to be prepared. And you also have to talk to the jury and try to get them to understand what you`re saying. If you see them looking like they don`t understand it, then you`ve got to clarify yourself.
GIUDICE: And just listening to this stuff, I think that when they get to the closing arguments, the prosecution is going to settle in on what`s really important here. So I have a lot of confidence in them.
GRACE: To Steve Helling, writer with "People" magazine, also in court today, joining us from Orlando. Steve Helling, I mean, did the jury get it? And Liz, in a moment, I want you to play that sound for the viewers again tonight. Did they get that they`re saying a dog or a coyote buried Caylee`s bone?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": Absolutely. The jury heard it. They -- actually, I was watching jurors number 11 and 12. They kind of smirked at each other when that was said. They seemed to have drummed up a little bit of a friendship there. Those two seemed to feel like this was just a ridiculous thing that was being said out there in court, and I don`t think they bought it at all. I don`t think anybody bought it. But we saw it in their faces.
GRACE: And to you, Natisha Lance. You were in court today, as well. I mean, it is just offensive to suggest that a coyote got Caylee and buried her bones there. I mean, that even flies in the face of the defense story that it was an accidental drowning. I mean, how do you go from accidental drowning to, A coyote buried my baby?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, it didn`t make a whole lot of sense. And this is after this witness had said that she had studied botany in semitropical areas for 30 years. But unfortunately, it didn`t seem as if she knew about the animal life in this area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone, a hip bone, was buried in four inches of what is referred (ph) to as muck, which I assume is wet -- I assume you call wet humus. Wouldn`t that indicate pretty conclusively that the skull had been there a whole lot longer than two weeks?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or a dog buried it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dog buried -- a dog buried it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They do, as do coyotes. I don`t know if you have those here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we`re not blessed with coyotes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many of you that never got a chance to hug her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is not any evidence of anything other than...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a pool in the house, which creates a possibility of drowning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What record evidence is there that the victim drowned? The answer is none.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go again. We got a tale of two cities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you had duct tape laced over someone`s face and mouth, would you still expect to find DNA?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would expect quite a lot of DNA there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The likelihood of finding any intact DNA is extremely remote.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The conditions which you describe are very bad for DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just can`t ever know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The two of you will never agree on anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in Orlando at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest on the case of tot mom, Casey Anthony, charged in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
And outrage in the courtroom today as a stunned jury hears the defense claim it wasn`t tot mom that left her daughter`s remains to be found skeletonized, half buried in muck, it was a coyote. On top of that, we learn it is now revealed that tot mom housed just feet away from a female inmate whose toddler boy died in the same exact way tot mom claims Caylee died.
GIUDICE: Out to Jean Casarez. The similarities are stunning. Did tot mom copycat this woman`s story? Because after she`s in jail, for a short while this woman is just a few feet away from her. The woman did discuss what happened to her son. She was not booked for that reason. She had a string of petty offenses. Her son`s drowning was deemed an accident. So she`s talking about this with the other female inmates behind bars, and suddenly, tot mom has the idea and comes up with the accidental drowning that we hear in opening statement.
GIUDICE: What happened, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, that`s the issue. That`s the question. And prosecutors are investigating it right now. They don`t know that it`s going to be a part of their rebuttal case. But her name is April Whalen. And it was back in 2007, on Christmas Day, her little son went missing for 20 minutes around the house. Everybody is frantically looking for him. And his grandfather found him floating in the pool. What was done -- they called 911 immediately, but it was too late. It was determined to be an accidental drowning.
GIUDICE: And April has told investigators that she did tell other inmates about her son`s drowning, but she did not speak personally to Casey Anthony.
GRACE: But the reality is, these houses are just 10 miles apart. She was feet away from tot mom behind bars when she goes over and over the story.
GIUDICE: Let`s take a look at it, Matt Zarrell. They`re both in the same area, almost one of the same neighborhoods, just a few miles apart. They`re both aboveground pools. Both are toddlers. Both families at home at the time of the drowning. Both women claim the grandfather finds the child. In both scenarios, the child wanders away from the family. It`s as if she took the story verbatim, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, it is very interesting. And what we`ve learned from the jail is that she was housed near Casey Anthony for a couple of days in July of 2009. And one thing that`s really important to note is we don`t know how she got the information, but Alan Moore (ph) from the jail admits the walls are not soundproof. She could have easily overheard Whalen talking to another inmate.
GRACE: Matt! Matt! Matt! Have you ever been in a jailhouse, Matt? Go ahead and tell me no.
ZARRELL: No, thank God.
GRACE: OK. Let me tell you something, Matt. You can hear everything that everybody else is saying! All night long, you hear it.
GIUDICE: Here are the two houses at issue. Did tot mom copycat a female inmate`s story and then transpose it onto Caylee`s murder? The stories are almost identical. And remember, there is no coincidence in criminal law.
GIUDICE: We are live in Orlando, bringing you the latest and taking your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The name of the witness is April Whalen. Apparently, her child died in a swimming pool and was found by the child`s grandfather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And anything Casey could do to protect her child she did, including living a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Ms. Anthony for a very brief period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s not right with this girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orlando courthouse, Orange County, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony.
A stunning new theory emerges from the defense that it was not tot mom who left her daughter`s remains to be found skeletonized and half buried in the muck, it was a coyote. This as we learn a fellow inmate of tot mom`s son died, drowned in the back yard pool, exactly like tot mom claims Caylee did.
Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, I heard the prosecution discussing it in court. This suggests to me that there may very well be a rebuttal case by the state.
CASAREZ: There is going to be a rebuttal case, Nancy. And let me tell you one thing it`s going to focus on is the day of June 16th. Prosecutor Linda Drane Burdick said there were computer searches that morning that rebut the theory of accident from the opening statement by the defense.
GRACE: And Jean, are there also some IMs -- instant messages -- that they say rebut that theory that Caylee was found drowned in the pool that morning, some instant messages like, Hey, dude, what`s going on? At the same time...
CASAREZ: We heard that, too.
GRACE: ... Caylee (SIC) says Caylee was drowned?
CASAREZ: Instant messages and computer searches showing pictures of the shot girls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: This is not a murder case. Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008 when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking story from --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: April Whalen.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: From inside the Orange County Jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An inmate who may have had contact with Miss Anthony.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her child died in a swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sound familiar?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was found by the child`s grandfather.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hey, guess what, that happened to me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me whether or not you have formed an opinion?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As to the shortest period of time that the remains of Caylee Lee Anthony could have been at the scene in which they were found?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two weeks.
BAEZ: Casey came around this corner and went back.
CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.
BAEZ: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said it was an accident that snowballed out of control.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: If I would have known something would have happened to Caylee, we wouldn`t be here today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Varying levels of decomposition in the leaves around the skull.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Casey is a very effective liar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could occur in just two weeks in December.
L. ANTHONY: She`s like a chameleon.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did Casey Anthony hear this story while in jail?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Whalen was in an adjacent cell to Miss Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are live outside the Orlando, Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. On trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee.
In court today, the defense tells the jury that tot mom was not responsible for leaving Caylee`s remains to be found, skeletonized, half buried in muck. Coyotes did it. To top it all off, we understand that George Anthony`s alleged mistress is set to testify.
OK. Steve Helling, what can you tell me about this alleged mistress? What is she going to say?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, one thing that is interesting about her is that she does admit that she and George Anthony had an affair after Caylee went missing. She was helping look for Caylee`s body.
GRACE: Can you clarify something for me, Steve Helling?
HELLING: Absolutely.
GRACE: What`s interesting about that? What`s interesting about ho- hum, another affair? And FYI, here`s her sworn statement. And she says, "Can you raise your right hand for me? You swear today`s going to be the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. Yes." And she says were you -- excuse the question, did you and George become romantically involved? Answer, no, we did not.
HELLING: I know, but now --
(LAUGHTER)
HELLING: Well, now she is saying that they did. And she is saying that they did have an affair.
GRACE: Well, that`s reliable.
HELLING: Well, I`m just telling you what she`s saying, Nancy. I can`t change what she said. She says that she had an affair with George Anthony and that George told her that Casey`s -- or Caylee`s death was just an accident that got out of control. And that`s what she`s going to testify to if she`s called.
GRACE: And, of course, Jean Casarez, has she been called? Has she been subpoenaed? Excuse me?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": She`s been subpoenaed. I saw her in the hall this morning when I went into the courtroom. She was not there when I came out for lunch. But Nancy, the whole focus is an accident that snowballed out of control. Was that George`s wishful thinking? Did he hope after his daughter was charged with murder that it was an accident?
GRACE: What about it, Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist? Could you see George and Cindy Anthony believing some line that tot mom told him to try to save her own skin saying that it was an accident?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I could see that initially they would want to believe that, because after all, she`s still her daughter. They`re in grief that their granddaughter is missing. If the defense knew that the mistress was going to say anything like this, maybe that`s why they came up with this line of defense.
But everything they`re laying down, the whole story line is emotionally and psychologically incoherent. So how is a jury supposed to make sense when they`re, like, throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what will stick? Nothing they`re doing actually makes emotional or psychological, never mind legal sense.
GRACE: I know that`s what you say, Dr. Leslie Austin, that`s what I say also.
AUSTIN: Yes.
GRACE: But, look what "People" magazine says. It`s hitting newsstands tomorrow. "Casey Anthony Trial, Getting Away with Murder?"
OK, Steve Helling, you`re the writer for "People" magazine. What is this all about?
HELLING: Well, what we were trying to explain was that you never can tell what a jury is going to do. Even though --
GRACE: But that`s not what the front of your magazine says. It says getting away with murder.
HELLING: Well, that`s our headline. And if you would look inside, what we`re saying is we don`t know what`s going to happen. Right now there are some jurors who are on that panel who the prosecution didn`t even want there. We don`t know right now what`s going to happen. It is possible that something could happen.
Casey Anthony could walk--
GRACE: I see you`re quoting a lot of law professors. Wonder how many murder trials they`ve handled. Go ahead.
HELLING: A lot, actually. Some of them have been -- were defense attorneys for 20 years. And they are pointing out different holes in the prosecution`s theory. Now we`re not saying that we know for sure one way or the other what`s going to happen --
GRACE: And here I see you`re quoting the defense team. OK.
HELLING: We didn`t quote the defense team.
GRACE: Yes, they don`t have a dog in the fight. Yes, you do. You say there has been a stacking of inferences. Defense attorney Cheney Mason in court, June 15, it`s blown up, it`s giant.
HELLING: No, we are quoting what he says in court, Nancy, because journalism means you go to both sides. So we certainly have to say what they`re saying --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But you just told me you didn`t quote them.
HELLING: Well, what I`m saying is we didn`t interview them for this. We did quote them in the magazine. We also quoted a prosecution source --
GRACE: Right under Caylee`s picture.
HELLING: I got you, Nancy. I forgot about that quote. But what I`m saying, we also did quote the prosecution in this.
GRACE: Put it back up. Put on Helling.
HELLING: That`s what we do.
GRACE: So are you all over it? Are "People" going to mention that a coyote did it?
HELLING: Well, that happened after we went to press. But certainly - - by the way, Nancy, there are coyotes in Florida. Just so you know. There are some here in Orlando. Not that I`m saying it had anything with it, but I just wanted to get that point across.
GRACE: Did you -- did you see one?
HELLING: I have not, but believe me, it`s on the news all the time. They show up in people`s yards.
GRACE: OK.
HELLING: You`re going to cut my mike, aren`t you?
GRACE: No. But I did think of it for a moment.
Let`s go out to the line, Linda in Ohio. Hi, Linda, what`s your question?
LINDA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi. This kind of goes in line with what everybody is talking about. I am the lay person, just like every member of that jury, and the defense has lost me in the midst of crime scene tampering, DNA labs in barns and now the elusive Floridian coyote.
So as the trial attorney, how easy is it for you guys to know you`ve won or lost a jury at this point? Because they`ve totally lost me.
GRACE: Let me tell you something, Linda. I know that some of it sounds zany to me and you, like the whole coyote did it, that the medical examiner`s office went out there and staged the scene, that they actually are part some of big conspiracy to get tot mom -- that George Anthony, a former cop, did not try to resuscitate Caylee, and instead hid her body and set it up to look like a murder?
I mean, all of these wild theories -- about Roy Kronk, the utility meter reader, took the body, kept it, what, I guess, what, in a box at his garage? Then redistributed Caylee`s body so he could get the reward? When it`s obviously been sitting there for months on end, buried in sediment from tropical storm Faye.
I mean, it`s all zany, but this is what I know, Linda. I know this from trying cases. You never know, and Helling was right, you never know what a jury is going to do. You know that juror number four, Linda? Watch her in court, doesn`t matter. When the prosecution is putting -- is saying something, she sits there with her arms crossed.
When the defense starts talking, she takes out her notebook and starts writing notes furiously. That`s not a good sign. She, for all I know, may be writing the coyote did it. I don`t know what she`s writing, but I know she`s more engaged, extremely more engaged when the defense is putting up evidence.
I want to go now to Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner from Burlington County, DNA expert. The story that Caylee drowned in the family swimming pool is identical, it`s copycat to another inmate`s story. That tot mom was a few feet away from behind bars. Have you seen any evidence in this case yet that suggests a pool drowning?
DR. BILL MANION, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: Well, there`s no evidence that said that she died in the pool. But there is no evidence that said she didn`t die in the pool. Dr. Werner Spitz has pointed out that we really can`t determine the exact cause of death.
And I wanted to point out that several years ago, three years ago when that body was found, Jose Baez asked if Dr. Spitz could attend the autopsy with Dr. G. And Dr. G. said no way, no way. So they set up this adversarial relationship from the beginning.
If I had an autopsy and another pathologist wants to observe, I mean, I always welcome him. Let him take a look at what I do. If Spitz had been there, perhaps he would have said, let`s open the skull, let`s look at things. Instead, the pathologist set up this adversarial relationship from the beginning and Spitz is well justified to say, why wasn`t the skull opened?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body is very decomposed.
CASEY ANTHONY: The thought of that every day makes me sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies were there. The larvae were there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lovely breakfast conversation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they will colonize a dead human --
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to be just as she was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same way they do any other dead animal.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my god.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: April Whalen, apparently her child died in a swimming pool. Part of what Mr. Baez said in opening statement.
BAEZ: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And was found by the child`s grandfather.
BAEZ: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who immediately administered CPR and called 911.
G. ANTHONY: I rarely ever got in the pool with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very big red flag for homicide for not reporting that child missing.
G. ANTHONY: Look what you`ve done. Your mother will never forgive you.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Jumped into the pool, into my arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inmates may have had contact with Miss Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we went down by the pool.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Too close to the pool.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey was raised to lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was indirect contact.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Had this information --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Failed to protect her as a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god, I`m such a good liar.
CASEY ANTHONY: I was completely truthful.
L. ANTHONY: No, you`re not.
(LAUGHTER)
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.
And today, a lot of bombshells in the courtroom, number one, the defense comes up with the theory that it wasn`t tot mom who left her daughter`s body there. It was coyotes. Coyotes or dogs. Not only that, we find out that tot mom was housed near a female inmate behind bars whose toddler son really did drown in an above ground pool in the backyard, exactly like tot mom says Caylee did.
The state plans a rebuttal case. Will evidence of the copycat crime - - that`s no coincidence -- come into court as George Anthony`s alleged mistress set to take the stand.
We are taking your calls, out to Loran Anderson, forensic botanist. Lauren is joining us from Florida State University.
Loran, you`re familiar with all the evidence that`s gone down. What do you make of the defense experts, especially Dr. Jane Bock testifying about leaf litter that she could tell the body was there for only two weeks.
DR. LORAN ANDERSON, FORENSIC BOTANIST, FLORIDA STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, the leaf litter situation -- testified that they were leaves of different colors, different ages, this would suggest a greater period of time of the prosecution`s forensic botanist suggested the body had been there for months.
Then the defense botanist suggested it was root growth and leaf litter that could have been as short as two weeks. Now on cross examination, she was asked wasn`t it possible it could be there a great deal longer than two weeks? And she replied, yes. So I see her testimony as being ambivalent and inconsistent. There is some real problems there.
GRACE: Loran -- with us, everyone, Loran Anderson, Dr. Loran Anderson, forensic botanist, Florida State University, whoever knew that plant life could crack a case. So what you`re telling me is that the defense`s own witness contradicted herself?
ANDERSON: Yes.
GRACE: And actually supported the state on the stand?
ANDERSON: Yes. She sent a notarized letter to the defense attorneys saying that she had reviewed all the literature and there are no data available on root growth rates. And she proceeds to say that based on root growth, the body could have been there as short as two weeks. So she contradicted herself in that respect.
Another botanical tidbit, she mentioned that bits of leaves of the Camford (ph) tree had been found in the vehicle. And why on earth people have bits of leaves of Camford tree? Well, perhaps it`s the residue of a larger amount of Camford.
The Camford tree produces a very vulnerable, fragrant essence and the only reason I can imagine people to have Camford leaves in their car, to cover up some other odor. If you have an aerosol spray, it works real well for a few minutes, and then it`s gone, it dissipates. But if you have a leaf that`s producing aromatic odors, they can be fragrant for hours.
GRACE: With us, Dr. Loran Anderson -- you`re dead on, Loran. I had not thought of that. When they said Camford, that didn`t ring a bell in my mind. You`re absolutely correct, Dr. Anderson.
You know some of the defense witnesses getting their training from as far away as the Netherlands.
Matt Zarrell, the witnesses for the defense, the experts, are now contradicting themselves and actually supporting the state`s case.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Yes, Nancy. It was a little bit of a mess today for the defense in the courtroom. They had two experts, one was Dr. Marcus Weiss. He is from the Oak Ridge Laboratory. He testified on direct examination that there were high levels of chloroform in the car trunk. Jeff Ashton, the prosecutor, seemed very amused by that.
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. You`re saying a defense witness gets on the stand -- a defense witness -- and says there are high levels of chloroform in tot mom`s trunk?
ZARRELL: Yes, prosecutor Jeff Ashton seemed very amused by it, Nancy. And then there was a second witness, Richard Eikelenboom. He is a DNA expert. He testified that heat and moisture could affect the duct tape but you should still be able to get DNA on the duct tape if it was attached pre-mortem.
However, on cross examination, he also admitted that the heat and moisture could cause the duct tape to be degraded and you couldn`t get DNA from it. He also admitted, Nancy, that the defense never retested that duct tape. So we would never know if you could get DNA from it.
GRACE: So the defense is claiming there should have been duct tape -- there should have been DNA on the duct tape, should have been, should have been, should have been, but oops, we decided not to test it.
ZARRELL: Yes. Unfortunately, yes, that`s true.
GRACE: OK, now is he the one that trained in the Netherlands?
ZARRELL: Yes, he has been living in Colorado for the last couple of years, but he is trained in the Netherlands. And Nancy, his degree from the Netherlands is equated to something below a Master`s degree in this country. So it`s unclear right now if the jury will see him as a credible expert witness.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyer, Ray Giudice, George Parnham.
Big question. Will this all mean tot mom doesn`t have any other choice but to take the stand? What about it, George?
GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think she has no choice but to take the stand. I think she has been put in a box. I think that the very fact that there is no evidence at all concerning the opening statement of the drowning. She has to take the stand. She has to admit to certain inconsistencies in statements in the past, but she`s got to the humanize herself in order to have a chance to save her life.
GRACE: What about it, Ray Giudice?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Wrong lead counsel, Mr. Baez, he doesn`t have the experience or the control over Casey Anthony. He can`t get his hired gun paid experts to answer his questions. Cheney Mason will prevent it from happening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are live at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest, and taking your calls in tot mom Casey Anthony`s murder trial.
To Barbara in New Mexico, Hi, Barbara, what`s your question?
BARBARA, CALLER FROM NEW MEXICO: Hi, how are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
BARBARA: I`m just calling because I would like to give my opinion on something. Here she is on trial, showing her face, crying. Where was she 31 days while her child was missing? What was she doing --
GRACE: You know what, CW, Barbara is right, CW Jensen. You know, to lay people like ourselves, what does that mean? Does that outweigh all of this scientific evidence?
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: I think when the prosecutors say, what is our basic human emotion, you`re a parent, I`m a parent, many of them are parents. I have never heard of a parent, if they weren`t involved in the disappearance of their child, not immediately dialing 911 and saying, help me, help me, I`ve got to find my child.
GRACE: To Brenna -- to Brenna, hi, dear, what`s your question?
BRENNA, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Nancy. My question is, if the defense is now going with the accidental drowning theory, I would like to know how a 2-year-old child could get themselves into an above-ground pool? Because you can see the difference in the two pools from the copycat story that she has --
GRACE: Oh, good point. Let`s show the pools side-by-side, Liz, if you can.
OK, Helling, there you go. She`ll walk away, she`ll walk free. Let`s take -- let`s hear that answer, Steve.
HELLING: Well, you know, obviously, there are certain things that the defense is going to have a hard time explaining away. And this may be one of them. But what I am saying is this --
GRACE: I don`t see that on the front page of your magazine.
HELLING: Well, it`s not on the front page this week, but hey, we have next week. You know we`re just trying to explain the difference between what we`re seeing and what the jury is seeing.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Captain Blake Russell, 35, Ft. Worth, Texas, killed, Iraq. On a third tour, awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, also served the Navy. Loved hunting, golfing, a Texas A&M grad. Was a die-hard Aggie.
Leaves behind parents Ron and Donna, sisters Rowna and Deidra, widow, Belinda, children, Dylan and Hailey.
Blake Russell, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, where we will be live outside the Orlando courthouse, in our own way, seeking justice for Caylee.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
