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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
President Obama's Afghanistan Plan; New York Nears Same-Sex Marriage Vote
Aired June 22, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We begin tonight with breaking news.
President Obama tonight announcing what he called the beginning of America's effort to wind down the war in Afghanistan, America's longest war, nearly 10 years, nearly half-a-trillion dollars spent, $2 billion a week, more than 1,500 Americans killed, thousands more wounded, tonight the president praising their sacrifices and talking of bringing the troops home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thanks to our extraordinary men and women in uniform, our civilian personnel, and our many coalition partners, we are meeting our goals. As a result, starting next month, we will be able to remove 10,000 of our troops from Afghanistan by the end of this year, and we will bring home a total of 33,000 troops by next summer, fully recovering the surge I announced at West Point.
After this initial reduction, our troops will continue coming home at a steady pace as Afghan security forces move into the lead. Our mission will change from combat to support. By 2014, this process of transition will be complete and the Afghan people will be responsible for their own security.
We're starting this drawdown from a position of strength. Al Qaeda is under more pressure than at any time since 9/11. Together with the Pakistanis, we have taken out more than half of al Qaeda's leadership. And thanks to our intelligence professionals and special forces, we killed Osama bin Laden, the only leader that al Qaeda had ever known. This was a victory for all who have served since 9/11.
One soldier summed it up well. "The message," he said, "is we don't forget. You will be held accountable, no matter how long it takes."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: President Obama saying the surge is working and by 2014 the Afghan people will be responsible for their own security.
But for the first time, a majority of Americans want U.S. troops home sooner, in fact, as soon as possible. Look at the two lines in this graph, the yellow one for keeping the troops there until the situation has stabilized, the red one for getting them out as soon as possible. Look at the change over time -- 56 percent now say get the troops out as soon as possible. That's 67 percent of Democrats, 57 percent independents, 43 percent of Republicans.
And the pivot point coming right around the time of the killing of Osama bin Laden in neighboring Pakistan. A lot of Americans seem to see that as a good enough reason to declare victory in Afghanistan and get out. But it wasn't the only objective when President Bush took the country into Afghanistan or when President Obama escalated the war there. Here's Mr. Obama in December of 2009 at West Point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, DECEMBER 2009)
OBAMA: We must deny al Qaeda a safe haven. We must reverse the Taliban's momentum and deny it the ability to overthrow the government. And we must strengthen the capacity of Afghanistan's security forces and government, so that they can take lead responsibility for Afghanistan's future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Tonight, President Obama credited America's involvement over the last 10 years with strengthening Afghan security forces and improving Afghan lives, while devastating al Qaeda.
But, "Keeping Them Honest," look at this map showing Taliban influence in Afghanistan today province by province. Only three provinces in light yellow, 10 years into the war, are free of Taliban control. When it comes to strengthening the Afghan government, American taxpayers are sending $320 million a month in foreign aid to Afghanistan, $320 million, most of it for so-called stabilization projects.
Yet a new majority staff report from the Senate Foreign Relations committee says -- and I quote -- "The evidence that stabilization programs promote stability in Afghanistan is limited. Some research suggests the opposite."
The report also quotes a pretty stunning World Bank figure -- 97 percent, that's how much of Afghanistan's economy comes from international military spending and foreign aid. Just about the entire economy depends on foreign aid, and if you take even a chunk of that away, the economy collapses. What's even more alarming is that much -- a lot of money is apparently being wasted.
A new report from the Commission on Wartime Contracting in Iraq and Afghanistan lays it out pretty clearly -- quote -- "Potential waste from unsustainable projects exceeds $11 billion for just one program in Afghanistan."
Examples in the report include a $300 million power plant that barely runs because the cost of operating and maintaining it is too high for Afghans, when it's cheaper to buy power from Uzbekistan next door, building schools without supplies or teachers, millions of dollars, according to an audit by just one inspector general of one single project falling into the hands of the Taliban. There are a lot more.
And despite efforts to win over the Afghan people, the Afghan government is now accusing Americans of being occupiers, triggering this angry response in Kabul from America's departing ambassador.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL EIKENBERRY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN: When we hear ourselves being called occupiers and worse, and our generous aid programs are being dismissed as totally ineffective and the source of all corruption, our pride is offended, and we begin to lose our inspiration to carry on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: From a diplomatic -- in diplomatic language, that is strong stuff.
Joining us now, world affairs analyst Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" and editor at large of "TIME" magazine, also political analysts Gloria Borger, David Gergen, and Peter Bergen, national security analyst and author of "The Oral History: The Osama bin Laden I Know."
Fareed, first of all, what do you make of the president's announcement tonight?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think it's been in keeping with his basic strategic rationale from the start. He did announce the surge.
Part of that was I think the military boxed him in. You remember Stan McChrystal leaked his recommendation. And it became very difficult for a Democratic president to overturn it. But Obama has started his presidency saying, we are too committed overseas, we are too militarily engaged, we have too large a footprint, we have got to rebalance, we have got to focus on nation-building at home, we have got to focus on Asia.
And he -- he sounded all those themes. It was a remarkable speech for an American president in the -- the caution, the strategic emphasis, rather than the idealistic emphasis. He said things like, we must be as pragmatic as we are passionate, as strategic as we are resolute. People would have us -- have America overextend itself, confronting every evil that could be found abroad.
This is reminiscent of a very different strain of America, in many ways a strain that goes back before the Cold War.
COOPER: He also talked about building international partnerships for military action a la Libya, as opposed to going it alone.
David, I want to play a little bit more of what the president said tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: Already this decade of war has caused many to question the nature of America's engagement around the world. Some would have America retreat from our responsibility as an anchor of global security, and embrace an isolation that ignores the very real threats that we face. Others would have America overextend ourselves, confronting every evil that can be found abroad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We have to chart a more centered course, to Fareed's point.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, he has. He has chosen I think what was aptly called earlier tonight a Goldilocks strategy.
And that is, there's some people who want to move out rapidly, some people who want to stay a long time. I want to -- I'm going to choose the middle of that.
And I think, overall, I think Fareed is right. I thought that this speech did bring into focus -- I thought it was a very good speech, brought into focus his overall philosophy. And you have to say he promised as a candidate that early on in his presidency he would wind down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and try to do that successfully.
And his White House aides were pointing out this afternoon, when he came into office, he had 196,000 troops deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq. By the end of this year, we will have less than 100,000. So he is winding down.
I think there's substantial question and I have some disagreements with him on how he's winding down in Afghanistan.
COOPER: Do you both agree that this is movement away from the McChrystal counterinsurgency and more to a counterterrorist-style operation?
ZAKARIA: I think it is. I think that it clearly is a movement in that direction. It may not happen in the next few months because they will clearly want to show the Taliban that they are not drawing down.
But there are two signs of that. The first is, of course, the nature of the troop withdrawal. The second is, who is going to prosecute the counterterrorism strategy for the United States over the next three or four years? David Petraeus. The movement of David Petraeus to the head -- to become head of the CIA is very significant in this respect, because what he is doing is saying to Petraeus, you make counterterrorism work as well as you have made counterinsurgency work in Iraq and Afghanistan.
GERGEN: Yes. But, in the process, he got undercut. Let's face it.
COOPER: You see this as a victory for Joe Biden...
GERGEN: There's no question about that. General Petraeus and Secretary Clinton and Bob Gates all have been reported tonight to have reluctantly accepted this outcome.
GERGEN: They wanted it more robust. And I, frankly, must say, what I'm partly puzzled about is, when you're trying to wind down a war -- and everybody agrees you have to wind it down in Afghanistan -- you have got a general who's turned around two wars, is the most successful general of modern times.
And he comes to you with a recommendation on how to do it, and you say, no thank you. I'm going to do it a different way. I find that puzzling.
ZAKARIA: Every general always wants more troops. And I think that the job of the president is to say, I have concerns beyond just Afghanistan and Iraq. I have got to look at America's strategic...
GERGEN: I agree with that.
ZAKARIA: And I have got to look at our -- how much we have spent on these wars in blood and treasure.
GERGEN: He's got the best defense secretary in decades. He's got the best general in place in a long time. And he did not accept their recommendation.
COOPER: I want to bring in Gloria.
Obviously, the White House will say that this is first and foremost a military decision, not a political one.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
COOPER: But you can't separate what we heard from tonight from the fact the president was speaking to a war-weary public mired in a tough economy facing reelection.
This is a president who understands that 56 percent of the American public does not want to be in Afghanistan. And the White House advisers I spoke to today said to me, look, if you go back to his speech in December of 2009, this is a president that people will view as steady, because he told us what he was going to do when he announced the surge in December 2009, and that is exactly what he has done. He is claiming some success in diminishing and defeating al Qaeda. Obviously, killing bin Laden helps him with that narrative. And so I think he believes that now he can make the case to the American public that he can draw down, having had some success.
But given the fact that we're spending all this money on this war, that it is hugely unpopular, I think it's very difficult, Anderson, to separate what is a military decision from what will become a political decision, you know?
BORGER: It's just -- it's all part and parcel of the same thing.
COOPER: Peter, I want to talk strategy a little. You and I have traveled together in Afghanistan a number of times. I want to play another clip from what the president said earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We do know that peace cannot come to a land that has known so much war without a political settlement. So as we strengthen the Afghan government and Security Forces, America will join initiatives that reconcile the Afghan people, including the Taliban.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You have been talking to White House sources. How significant is it that the president acknowledged the Taliban as being part of the Afghan reconciliation?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, we have known that this has been going on for several months, but certainly, as far as I can tell, this is the first time the president has sort of officially acknowledged it, what Bob Gates did a few days ago. President Karzai was the person who kind of first outed it officially.
I think it is a big deal. The White House officials I spoke to said that they're aware of somewhere between 10 and 20 different what they call leads into the Taliban. They're sort of doing detective work is what they're saying, trying to work out if these leads, how legitimate are they? Is somebody coming forward as sort of a free agent who really doesn't represent senior leadership of the Taliban, or is it something deeper?
They are saying they are not starry-eyed about these discussions with the Taliban. They don't expect some Treaty of Versailles or some peace agreement on the deck of the USS Missouri. But they are looking at sort of some leads that appear to be fairly substantial and might lead to further negotiation. So, I think this is in -- this is newsworthy.
COOPER: Fareed, it's interesting because you are writing -- you have an article in -- a piece in "The Washington Post" tomorrow that I read that's really fascinating and very scary about -- and I think one of the things -- I don't want to misquote you -- is, you say what happens in Afghanistan -- the future of Afghanistan may not rest so much on the level of U.S. troops, but actually on the Pakistan military.
And the Pakistan military is -- seems to be moving away from the U.S. rather rapidly and heading toward Islamic extremists.
ZAKARIA: Yes, it's important to look at the speech and notice, the one place where it's very soft and very vague is Obama's discussion of Pakistan. He says, we won't tolerate safe havens in Pakistan. But that is not the problem.
The Pakistani military has huge equities, as they describe them, in Afghanistan. They support the Pakistani Taliban. They support various militant groups. And, increasingly, you have evidence that this is a military riddled with Islamic extremists.
They themselves have just arrested a brigadier general, as we discussed on this program. You look at the attack on the naval base, which was an inside job. You look at the way in which they have had -- they have killed a journalist who was exposing the increasing infiltration of extremism within the Pakistani military.
The Pakistani ambassador to Washington, a moderate democrat, Haqqani, went to the National Defense University and did a poll. He asked the audience, how many of you think India is your biggest strategic threat? Small number. How many of you think the militants, the terrorists are your biggest threat? Small number. How many of you think the United States of America is your biggest threat? A majority of hands go up.
COOPER: And these were Pakistani military officers?
ZAKARIA: These are colonels in the Pakistani military.
And think about that. These guys think that a country that has allied with them and given them $20 billion of aid over the last decade...
COOPER: That's -- that's scary.
ZAKARIA: ... is their principal threat.
COOPER: Yes, it's a fascinating article. It's going to be in "The Washington Post" tomorrow.
David Gergen, thank you.
Fareed Zakaria, thank you.
Gloria Borger, thank you, and Peter Bergen as well.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. You can follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight. Up next, we have more breaking news: late word on a vote in New York State on same-sex marriage. There has not been a vote tonight. We're going to talk about the likelihood of it. There had been some talk late tonight, but maybe tomorrow or the following day -- details tonight on where things exactly stand and, really, the big question: Why are lawmakers taking so long to say yes or no to get a vote onto the floor?
Also breaking news on the trial of Casey Anthony -- in a 360 exclusive, find out what Casey Anthony's mom and dad actually think about their daughter's guilt or innocence. Do they believe she is innocent? We actually have the answer for the first time on that tonight -- details ahead.
COOPER: Breaking news tonight in the Casey Anthony trial, a 360 exclusive.
We now know what Casey's parents really believe about their daughter's role in 2-year-old Caylee's death.
For that, we go Gary Tuchman in Orlando.
Gary, what did you find out?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, George and Cindy Anthony say they love their daughter, they're supporting their daughter. At least one of them have been in this courthouse every day of her trial, both of them here today on day 25.
But ever since she was charged with murder, it has not been clear. We have not known how they feel about the charges against her. And it's especially relevant now because of the opening statements where George, the father, was raked over the coals by the defense attorneys.
So we asked today -- we said, how do they feel about these charges? And now we have the answer. They feel their daughter is not innocent. The details are intriguing and heartbreaking -- Anderson.
COOPER: Gary, thanks very much. We have more -- we will have more on that later on.
More breaking news, though, right now -- New York could be on the brink of being the sixth and largest state in the nation to legalize same-sex marriage, legislation going right down to the wire in New York's Republican-controlled state Senate. The vote of one single GOP senator could make the difference between passage and defeat -- 29 out of 30 Democrats support the measure. One says he never will.
Two Republicans have changed from no to yes. Tonight, New York's Governor Andrew Cuomo says he remains hopeful for passage, but the bill has been on the brink of a vote for days now, while lawmakers have voted on measures to make sweet corn the state vegetable, a bill for refined bingo rules, and legislation to let disabled people hunt big game with crossbows.
Our thanks to the Huffington Post for that list.
So why the delay?
Joining me now, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Evan Wolfson executive director of freedomtomarry.org.
Evan, why the delay? Whether or not it passes, but why not just let it come up to a vote?
EVAN WOLFSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FREEDOM TO MARRY: Well, we're very hopeful that there will be a vote. We're calling on the Senate to move for a vote, because we feel like we have made the case.
Thousands and thousands of New Yorkers, Democrats, as well as Republicans, business leaders, as well as labor unions, even professional athletes, as well as individual people and their families and their loved ones, have contacted their legislators, have called the senators, have visited the senators, and have spoken out, and actually 58 percent of New Yorkers support same-sex marriage.
COOPER: Do you think you have enough votes among the legislators?
WOLFSON: We're very hopeful that, if the Senate brings it to a vote, which I hope will happen very soon, that we will have a happy day for New York.
COOPER: Jeff, as look at this, why is it taking so long just to come to a vote one way or another?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think this is a hard vote for a lot of the Republicans.
The Republican Party institutionally and in New York State has been opposed to same-sex marriage. I mean, look at the debate we just saw in New Hampshire. Every candidate was for a constitutional amendment to stop same-sex marriage.
New York is different. And New York's Republicans are different. But it's hard for them to come around. And they are now concentrating, it seems, on side issues as a way from detract -- as pushing attention away from the main issue.
But the fact that they are so close -- and it really looks like, if there is a vote, it will pass -- is a huge, huge change, especially when it failed in the New York State Senate by a wide margin just two years ago.
But, Evan, it seems like some -- the final sticking points have been over religious exemptions or religious concerns. What are the concerns? And, I mean, there are legitimate religious concerns. Some churches don't want to be forced to marry gay people.
WOLFSON: Well, no church should be forced to marry any couple they don't want to. A church is as free to not marry a gay couple as it is to not marry an interfaith couple. Nobody can force the Catholic Church to marry divorced Catholics.
But the Catholic Church, of course, can't tell the city clerk not to issue a license, a marriage license from the government to that divorced Catholic couple. So, everybody agrees that they're -- this bill, like any bill, has to have a significant balance between non- discrimination on the one hand and religious freedom on the other.
And the good news here is that the governor, Majority Leader Skelos and others have been today saying that they actually believe the language looks good, that this is a gap -- or a question that can really be resolved. And I don't actually think that will prove to be a sticking point.
COOPER: But it seems like they're debating stuff behind closed doors that have nothing to do with same-sex marriage. It seems like they are focusing on other -- other issues in the state.
TOOBIN: Well, I think, in terms of the politics, the Republicans are looking for ways to justify their vote for same-sex marriage. And at least a significant number of them are saying, look, I -- I wasn't going to support this unless we protected the Catholic Church from being sued.
Now, in fact, that's a non-issue. It's a red herring. There's been same-sex marriage in Massachusetts for seven years. It's never been any sort of problem like this. But this is giving some Republicans political cover. And it looks like Cuomo and Skelos, the majority leader of the Senate, are going to give it to them.
COOPER: Is there a date by which they have to vote or it will go away?
WOLFSON: No. This is Albany, and they can do what they can do. And what we're watching is them working on not -- as you said, not just the freedom to marry, but also other important issues to New Yorkers.
But Governor Cuomo, who has been a really strong champion when he was a candidate and as governor, has made it clear that he wants to see a vote, and we're really hopeful we're going to see a vote.
COOPER: As someone -- you have been campaigning for this to happen obviously nationwide. What do you think the impact of this happening in New York would be?
WOLFSON: I think it will be immense. I mean, first of all...
COOPER: More than other places? WOLFSON: Well, first of all, if New York moves to marriage, which we're very hopeful is going to happen very soon, it will more than double the number of Americans who live in a state where gay people share in the freedom to marry. We're going to go from 16 million in this country to 35 million.
So, that's, in and of itself, significant to families and loved ones who are eager to celebrate and solidify the love and commitment that bring people into marriage. But beyond that, this is New York. New York is a global face of America. New York sends a message. New York is going to be giving the rest of the country and indeed the world a chance to really see that, when marriage discrimination ends, families are helped and no one's hurt, with all the power that New York brings.
COOPER: So your -- so your hope is, if it happens here, because so many more people will have that freedom to marry, that right to marry, that those who oppose it currently will see that their marriages aren't affected, their lives aren't affected, nothing really changes?
WOLFSON: That's exactly right.
And, as Jeff said, that's exactly what we have seen in other states. When people see it for real, not just in scary ads, they realize that actually it takes nothing away from my family for the family across the street to be stronger and better off. And that's why actually now six polls have shown that a majority in this country do support the freedom to marry. People have moved, including 63 percent of Catholics.
TOOBIN: If New York passes, there's also going to be a legal ramification, I think. The DOMA case, the case about whether the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional, is now moving through the courts.
And if you have thousands of gay couples who are married in New York, and they are denied the right to have the same benefits under federal tax law, it's going to force the courts, I think, to strike down DOMA, because if you have that many gay married couples, the idea that they all are victims of discrimination, I don't think it can be sustained.
WOLFSON: And I just want to add to that, that's why we have seen in this fight in New York in particular a lot of Republicans stepping up.
Republican leaders, Republican business leaders, Republican donors have spoken out in support of making this happen. This is a bipartisan question right now. And, bipartisan, it's moving in the right direction.
COOPER: Are you excited? Are you fearful? Are you exhausted? What are you?
WOLFSON: All of the above. But I'm mostly hopeful that this is going to happen and it's going to be the right thing for New York and the right thing for families, and it's going to be good.
COOPER: Evan Wolfson, we will talk to you in the coming days. Thanks very much.
WOLFSON: Thank you.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin as well.
Coming up: more on our breaking news in the Casey Anthony trial. As Gary Tuchman told us, Casey Anthony's parents do not think she is innocent. That's according to their lawyer. But George and Cindy Anthony are in the courtroom almost every day. Are they still supporting their daughter? That's ahead, plus, the latest from today's testimony.
And Mexican authorities say that it's essentially the end of one of the country's most violent drug cartels -- details of the capture of the leader of La Familia next.
COOPER: Coming up: breaking news in the Casey Anthony trial. George and Cindy Anthony do not think their daughter is innocent, according to her lawyer, but do they want Casey to get the death penalty? We will have the answer to that as well.
First, Randi Kaye has a 360 news and business bulletin -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, authorities in Mexico have captured the top leader of one of the country's most violent drug cartels.
Jose de Jesus Mendez Vargas is the head of the La Familia cartel. Mexico's national security spokesman says his arrest will effectively shut down the cartel.
Police say Ryan Dunn was drunk and driving up to 140 miles per hour before crashing his car. The star of MTV's "Jackass" died in the fiery crash, along with his passenger. A Pennsylvania police chief says Dunn's blood alcohol concentration was more than twice the legal limit.
The Federal Reserve has pulled back on its forecast for growth of the economy. The Fed estimates the gross domestic product will rise no more than 2.9 percent this year, down from an April estimate of up to 3.3 percent.
And there's an uproar in Boston over Nike's new campaign featuring T-shirts with pictures of pill bottles and slogans like "get high" and "dope." Boston's mayor wants Nike to take down a display in a city storefront. Nike says the campaign its about action sports, and it doesn't condone the use of illegal substances -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Time for "The Shot." I don't know if you saw this one yet, Randi. We all know that Tom Hanks is an amazing actor and seems like a really nice guy. But who knew his talent doesn't stop when the music starts? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (speaking Spanish) In Atlanta.
TOM HANKS, ACTOR: Atlanta.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (speaking Spanish) Atlanta.
HANKS: Over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Doing the weather segment on Univision's "Despierta America." He was on the show to promote his new movie, "Larry Crowne."
KAYE: He's got some moves, don't you think?
COOPER: He was very good. That was funny.
KAYE: Oh, yes. Now, Anderson, that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got us thinking.
KAYE: Yes, it got us thinking, Anderson...
KAYE: ... about someone else who's just a little more modest, we might say, about his awesome dance moves. Shall we walk down memory lane maybe?
COOPER: No. No.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY RIPA, CO-HOST, ABC'S "LIFE WITH REGIS AND KELLY": No, I want you to see...
COOPER: I cannot dance. I simply cannot.
RIPA: Give me your best shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Oh. I miss Kelly. Tried to make me dance.
KAYE: Yes. She was serenading you there. And you just -- you didn't give her anything back.
COOPER: Well, I'm a doofus. All right. We'll check in with you later, Randi. Still ahead, back to the series. More on tonight's breaking news in the Casey Anthony trial. We now know that Casey Anthony parents don't think their daughter is innocent. We learned that exclusively, our Gary Tuchman did tonight. That's not all he uncovered today in his exclusive interview with their attorney. Do you think -- do you think she should get the death penalty? He joins us ahead with the answer about what Casey's parents think
Plus Southwest Airlines crash lands on the RidicuList after a pilot's rant about flight attendants. That's not really a crash -- about flight attendants is caught on an open mike. We'll explain in a minute.
COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment," breaking news in the Casey Anthony trial. A 360 exclusive. Today the lawyer for George and Cindy Anthony told us the Anthonys do not believe their daughter is innocent.
Now, the Anthonys have been in the courtroom for virtually all the testimony, much of it pretty gruesome, supporting Casey, who's charged with murdering her daughter, 2-year-old Caylee. Cindy at one point even whispering to Casey, "I love you."
But George Anthony also brings a badge with Caylee's picture on it to court every day. The Anthonys have said they want justice for their granddaughter, who they last saw alive three years ago. She would have turned six this August.
Gary Tuchman joins me again.
So Gary, we haven't known what the Anthonys have -- have felt about whether or not Casey is guilty or not. You've learned out, though -- you've learned exclusively some information. What did you learn and how did you hear it?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've kept it very private. But today I talked to their family attorney, Mark Lippman. And Mark hasn't wanted to talk about that, citing attorney-client privilege.
But I explained to him, we don't want to sensationalize this. But there's a big question. I mean, George could be in a lot of trouble if the jury ultimately believes what the defense is saying, that the child accidentally drowned and George had something to do with disposing of the child's body.
So Mark Lippman has told me this. I asked him a very specific question. I said, "Do your clients, George and Cindy Anthony, think that she is not guilty?"
And his answer was, "They do not think that." He said they want to see justice done. They want to see the truth come out. And then he added to me, he said, "They do not believe she is innocent." That being said, OK? And this is very important. And he wanted me to stress this, and it's important I do stress this. They love her, they support her, and they do not want her to get the death penalty. They will do all they can to avoid her getting the death penalty in this case.
So that's what we found out. They do not believe, George and Cindy Anthony, that their daughter, Casey, is innocent in regards to the death of their granddaughter, Caylee.
Now, in the 25th day of testimony today, you know, we expect after this opening statement in which they said it was an accidental drowning and that George had something to do with disposing of the body, we expected to hear evidence about that. But that still hasn't happened one week after the defense began its case.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Casey Anthony is often very expressive with her attorneys before the jury walks in, but once the jurors arrive she puts on a poker face. Her attorney, Jose Baez, has his own routine every day when the trial begins. He tries to turn on the charm.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
TUCHMAN: And he waits until the jury says it back. Then he launches his effort to help save Casey Anthony's life.
BAEZ: Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you tested, where it came from, and what your results were?
Do you recall receiving items of evidence to test?
Sir, I'd like to direct you to your -- a report you did in this case.
TUCHMAN: Almost a week into Casey Anthony's defense case, Jose Baez has yet to explain his shocking allegations against Casey's father, George, that he sexually abused Casey for years. Instead he's presenting a forensic case, just like the prosecution did.
Regarding possible decomposition in the trunk of Casey's car, a scientist testifying for the defense said after testing the car trunk...
MICHAEL SIGMAN, SCIENTIST: I cannot conclusively determine that those -- the presence of those compounds indicated that there had been human remains in the trunk of the car.
TUCHMAN: But two weeks ago, jurors heard this from a prosecution scientist who said he believes there was a dead body in the trunk.
DR. ARPAD VASS, PROSECUTION WITNESS: I can find no other plausible explanation other than that to explain all the results we found.
TUCHMAN: Today's defense witness said he did detect chloroform in the car, which the prosecution believes was used to poison Caylee. But he said it was a very small amount.
CHENEY MASON, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY: The main thing that was there was gasoline.
SIGMAN: The predominant profile was associated with or identified as gasoline.
TUCHMAN: But there was earlier prosecution testimony in the case that, quote, "shockingly high amounts of chloroform were found," particularly on fibers in the trunk liner and spare tire cover. So today the prosecution got the scientist testifying for the defense to acknowledge this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your air sample would have been from the trunk four days after the trunk liner and the spare tire cover had already been removed, if in fact it was removed on the 17th as the evidence shows.
SIGMAN: That would be correct.
TUCHMAN (on camera): The conflicting evidence from the trunk could be confusing to jurors. But defense attorneys have yet to make headway with something much more basic and potentially troubling for the defense. And that is five different people -- Casey's father, two police officers, one scientist and one tow truck driver -- have testified they smelled the distinct odor of a dead body in that trunk.
(voice-over) But the defense still has days of testimony left. The judge has told Casey Anthony's attorneys they need to tell him by Friday how much more time they need.
COOPER: So Gary, yesterday we learned the defense may call a woman who says she had an affair with George Anthony and that he had told her Caylee's death was some sort of accident. What's the reaction of George and Cindy Anthony to this?
TUCHMAN: OK. I did talk to Mark Lippman, the family attorney, about that, too, George and Cindy's attorney. And he tells me that George and Cindy believe that Krystal Holloway is, quote, "disturbed." Totally denied the affair. They say they know Krystal Holloway because she was one of the volunteers looking for Caylee's body. But they say none of this is true, that she is disturbed, and they are very unhappy that she's come forward claiming this.
COOPER: Well, also it is a telling point that, apparently, she said to police that she did not have affair with George Anthony, but she did say to the "National Enquirer," which I'm guessing paid her, or maybe they didn't even need to pay her, but she told the "National Enquirer" that they did have an affair. That certainly speaks to her credibility. TUCHMAN: Right. And that's something the attorney cited, too. She told police one thing. She told the "National Enquirer" something else.
But either way, he stressed to me, they feel she is truly disturbed. That's their allegation.
COOPER: Yes. All right. Good to know. Gary, appreciate it.
A lot more forensic testimony today plus the bombshell from George and Cindy Anthony's lawyer. Joining me now, Jean Casarez, a correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV and Dr. Michael Hunter, forensic pathologist and chief medical examiner of Panama City, Florida.
So Jean, what do you think of what Gary Tuchman is reporting tonight, that his -- that Anthonys' attorney told him that they do not believe their daughter Casey is innocent?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV'S "IN SESSION": Well, I think what your stellar correspondent gained, I think, is huge. I guess my question is guilty of what? Because he did not say that.
Another thing that strikes me as an attorney is the attorney- client privilege, because Mark Lippman and his clients do have that attorney-client privilege. They hold the privilege, though. And if they allow it to be waived, it can be. And this was told on the record. But I think this is huge.
And Anderson, I have confirmed with my sources close to the defense that Cindy Anthony will be called to the stand tomorrow. And so I think this is a critical witness for the prosecution, but the defense may try to make her into their witness to actually help Casey, who we now know they believe is guilty of something.
COOPER: So that's interesting to hear, that she's going to be called to the stand tomorrow. Do we know what she's expect -- or what the defense is hoping she's going to say?
CASAREZ: I think they're going to look for things in her deposition that was done several years ago when she was really, really siding with her daughter. I think what we need to look for are those computer searches, because they were done at the home, on chloroform, how to make chloroform, and could someone other than Casey have admitted back then that -- that they did those searches on the family computer?
COOPER: There was also, Jean, conflicting evidence entered today about the trunk and the presence of chloroform. How does that work in the defense's strategy?
CASAREZ: This is getting very confusing, right? And this is the whole point of the defense. They want to raise the reasonable doubt.
And so the expert that took the stand today from the University of Florida said that he did an air sample testing and found basically the chemicals of gasoline in that trunk. Although he did say three other chemicals he found were also found in decomposition but at very, very low levels.
But then you have cross-examination by Jeff Ashton, who says, well, wait a minute. The trunk liner and the spare tire cover had already been removed. And Anderson, we know that the fibers inside that carpet sample, that's what held the majority of the chloroform.
COOPER: Yes. And Dr. Hunter, so as Jean just said, this defense witness was casting doubt on the prosecution's witness, who claimed there had been abundance of chloroform, unusually high levels, shockingly high levels of chloroform in the trunk of Casey's car. What did you make of his testimony?
DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, I mean, the testimony today -- it's sampling error. You know, the reason why he's not getting that high level of that was testified to earlier is because the specimen that you want to have to test is going to be that saturated mat. It's not even in the vehicle when he takes his air sample. It's just simple error for sampling.
And I think that easily explains why there's a discrepancy there. And it's up to the prosecution to comment that and explain it to the jury so they have a good understanding of what's going on.
COOPER: Jean, the defense also introduced a Gatorade bottle with a syringe that was found at the crime scene into evidence today. Is this -- do we know does it have any actual relation to the case? Or are they just kind of again throwing up whatever -- whatever might stick?
CASAREZ: You know, the prosecution sure didn't enter it into evidence. And Anderson, it was found so close to the skull of Caylee Anthony. It was a Gatorade bottle filled with liquid. There was a syringe. The majority was testosterone in the fluid, but there were miniscule amounts of chloroform.
What the defense was able to bring out was that it smelled like a cleaning fluid, and that cleaning fluid contained chloroform. But the fact is it was a syringe. What is injected into someone. But they're trying to dissociate Casey, because her prints weren't found on it. Nothing shows that she possessed that.
COOPER: Dr. Hunter, today's testimony showed a forensic toxicologist who tested Caylee's hair mass for 11 drugs, including Xanax and Valium. The results were all negative. They didn't test for the presence of chloroform. How conclusive is hair testing?
HUNTER: You know, hair testing is a terrible toxicology specimen post-mortem. It tells you absolutely nothing about what was in her system at the time that she died.
Where it's useful is asking the question, has there been exposure for this child with a drug in the past? And I'm sure that's the reason why it was tested. Trying to answer yes, there is a drug identified -- and if there was a positive test, then that would have been very powerful.
A negative test really doesn't tell you much at all. It certainly doesn't say that she hasn't been exposed in the past. But the defense is certainly trying to infer that I think with how they approached it.
COOPER: And Jean you were critical of the defense's performance yesterday. Do you think they did a better job today? I mean, at some point do we know? Are they going to start to try to introduce evidence that -- which, according to their whole defense strategy, Caylee drowned? Or evidence of sexual abuse, which again was in their opening statement?
CASAREZ: They haven't gone to their personal witnesses yet. So if Cindy's going to be called tomorrow at some point, that could be the beginning of the personal witnesses.
But today was all about reasonable doubt. And today was all about distancing Casey, excluding Casey from the crime scene. Because none of her hairs were found on the remains of the blanket or the trash bag. Twenty-two pairs of shoes of hers were tested. There was no soil associated with the crime scene. The defense is trying to show that so one juror will say, "Wait a minute. You can't connect Casey with this." And that's what the defense needs.
COOPER: It's going to be fascinating testimony, because as we saw Cindy Anthony the last time she was on the stand when she got up, it seems like she whispered to Casey "I love you". And Jean, as I remember, Casey kind of turned away from that.
CASAREZ: That's right. And because of the camera we can see that. She sort of had a half smile on her face, but her eyes showed, OK, all right, and then she turned away. You're right.
COOPER: Interesting day tomorrow no doubt. Dr. Michael Hunter, appreciate it.
Jean Casarez, thanks.
COOPER: And on 360, about 12,000 residents urged to quickly leave their homes as fast-moving waters in North Dakota threaten to set record flood levels. We have details of that ahead.
And the RidicuList. An open mike in a cockpit reveals a pilot's views on flight attendants and just about everybody else. Find out what he thinks and why it's landing him and a major airline carrier in tonight's "RidicuList."
COOPER: "The RidicuList" is just in a few second. If you fly at al you want to hear what one pilot was talking about while he was flying a plane. Randi Kaye has another "360 Bulletin." KAYE: Anderson, a preliminary magnitude 6.7 earthquake struck off the coast of north Japan. A tsunami warning was issued but was canceled with no reports of damage or injuries. The epicenter was 100 miles north of the area, hit by the massive earthquake and tsunami that devastated northern Japan in March.
And Arizona jury has found self-help guru James Arthur Ray guilty of negligent homicide in the deaths of three of his clients during a 2009 sweat lodge ceremony. The jury cleared Ray of the more serious charge of manslaughter. Ray faces up to 11 years in prison when he is sentenced.
In Minot, North Carolina, sirens sounded today, warning 12,000 residents to evacuate due to rising flood waters. The river which flows through the center of town is expected to set a new flood record.
And fashion designer John Galiano testified today in a Paris courtroom that his addiction to alcohol and sleeping pills kept him from remembering his alleged anti-Semitic rants against three people. Prosecutors say the incidents occurred before Galiano was fired from Christian Dior in March when a video surfaced of him praising Adolf Hitler. French law prohibits public insults based on other origins, race or religion. Now, if convicted, Galiano faces six months in jail and a fine, Anderson, of about $32,000.
COOPER: Fascinating. We'll follow that.
Time now for "The RidicuList," Randi. And tonight we're adding Southwest Airlines. Why? Because a Southwest pilot recently brought it to our attention that the quality of flight attendants on the airline is, in his opinion, well, kind of lacking.
And by quality he doesn't mean their professionalism, which they have, or safety training, which they have, or how they treat passengers, which is good. Oh, no. This pilot is talking strictly about the dearth of flight attendants who are suitable sex partners for him.
How do I know this, you ask? Because his mike was open during a flight. And this guy would just not shut up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I had Tucson to Indy, all four weeks. And Chicago crews. Eleven out of 12 -- there's 12 flight attendants, individuals, never the same flight attendant twice. Eleven (EXPLETIVE DELETED) over-the-top homosexuals and a granny. Eleven! I mean, think of the odds of that. I thought I was in Chicago, which was party land.
After that, it was just a continuous stream of gays and grannies and grandes.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Gays and grannies and grandes. What a charmer this guy is. I take is a grande would be a flight attendant who doesn't measure up to Captain Integrity's standards of slimness.
How does he work under these conditions. I mean, with all these gay people and older and overweight flight attendants running around, who's he supposed to go out drinking with in between flights?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So six months I went to the bar three times. In six months, three times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Six months. Just three times. Unacceptable! Why else did this guy become a pilot if it wasn't to hit on flight attendants?
Listen, airlines, I fly a lot, and I want my pilots happy. I'm putting my life in their hands, so I definitely want them to be out drinking in bars as much as possible. I mean, how is this guy supposed to do that if you don't provide him with an adequate supply of young, attractive female coworkers that he can hit on and perhaps even pressure into sleeping with in a drunken, sweaty night of shame- based loving? I mean, who did he even go out with these three times?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once with the granny and the (EXPLETIVE DELETED), and I wish I hadn't gone. At the very end with two girls, one of them that was probably doable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This guy loves his anti-gay slurs. Does he kiss his mirror with that mouth? You know what? I bet he does.
But anyway, things seemed to be looking up. Just when I was going to start a telethon for this poor pilot, he found one, quote unquote, girl who was probably doable. Let's hear how it went.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of them that was probably doable, but we ended up going to the bar and then to the crew in St. Louis. And all these two women wanted to do was one wanted to berate her sister and the other one to bitch about her husband. Literally. For three hours me and the F.O. When that was done, 2:30 got back to my room, I'm like why the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) did I stay up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, whoever's transmitting, better watch what you're saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Yes. That was the air traffic controller stepping in to let our hero in the sky know that -- excuse me -- everyone on that frequency could hear him. So that definitely shut him up. What? Oh. That didn't shut him up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I still wouldn't want anyone to know if I had banged them. So I mean, it was a complete disaster for six months. Now I'm back in Houston, which is easily one of the ugliest bases. I mean, it's all these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) old dudes and grannies, and there's like maybe a handful of cute chicks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Congratulations, flight attendants in Texas. You've just been deemed among the ugliest by the world's most discerning pilot.
So how did Southwest handle the situation? Well, the pilot was reprimanded and sent to diversity training. He was also suspended without pay for some undisclosed amount of time. But this happened in March, and he's already back to work.
So the next time you're in Southwest Airlines, feel free to say hi to the pilot but only if you're hot and not a dude. Because even though he keeps talking about dudes, he's definitely not into dudes, just hot chicks. We need to keep this -- this guy happy.
So Southwest Airlines, would it kill you to go to Hooters and maybe recruit some new flight attendants for this guy? They have wings there. Same difference, right?
I know flight attendants are there for our safety, and I appreciate them just as they are. But a pilot is the captain of the ship. If this guys work environment doesn't start getting a little more "Girls Gone Wild," he's not going to have anyone to get drunk with and hit on, and he'll be all alone, circling endlessly on "The RidicuList."
We'll be right back.