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Dr. Drew
Bombshell Testimony in Casey Anthony Trial; Beth Holloway: The Casey, Joran Lies
Aired June 23, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Bombshell testimony. Cindy Anthony says she searched the Internet for the word "chloroform." What?
Meanwhile, the Anthonys` attorney told CNN they don`t believe Casey is innocent. He is here with me telling us his whole story.
Plus, I am talking to Beth Holloway about the terrible limbo of not knowing what happened to her child.
Is Casey doing the same thing to her family? We`re going to figure this out.
It is a blockbuster, all right. Cindy Anthony is saying under oath that she is the one who searched the words "chloroform" after looking for "chlorophyll" on their home computer. And there`s much more.
Take a look at this and then we`re going to talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I started looking at chlorophyll, and then that prompted me to look up chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy cow! Cindy Anthony saying she`s the one that did the searches for chloroform.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George and Cindy Anthony, well, are they still supporting Casey as strong as they used to?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: "Do your clients, George and Cindy Anthony, think that she is not guilty?" And his answer was they do not think that. They do not believe she is innocent.
JUDGE PENNY BROWN-REYNOLDS, FMR. GEORGIA ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Could a mother actually kill her child?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Yes, it`s like a Greek tragedy or something. We`ve got Casey Anthony. We`ve learned a lot about her, none of it very good. And then there`s her father, George, accused of covering up Caylee`s death, of sexually abusing Casey. And just this week, an alleged mistress surfaced.
Finally, there is Cindy Anthony. Now, she has been the one that has been most sympathetic. She is guilty of one thing, and that is loving her daughter and granddaughter. And people are accusing her of perhaps perjury after this recent testimony.
I just want to say something. I don`t know if Cindy watches the show, but let me just say this, none of us know the depth of your pain, but when we see you grieving, it`s clear to me that it`s real and it`s raw. It`s certainly how I or many of us would behave.
I admire your strength. And when you walk in the courtroom every morning, our greatest hope, that one day -- my wish is for you, and that`s -- because for me, it`s just tough, because she`s the one I sympathize with most. And I know people have said some not so great things about her, but just think about it, guys.
Think about what she is dealing, how much she is suffering, and put yourself in those shoes.
I hope you find some peace with this tremendous loss.
All right, let`s get to today`s developments. They`re big.
It`s day 26 of the Casey Anthony murder trial, and what a day. Is this the turning point? You heard a little of what Cindy Anthony said about the chloroform. Is she telling the truth, or is she just trying to save her daughter`s life?
Here is more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you recall in March of 2008 you doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
ANTHONY: Yes. Well, I started looking at chlorophyll, and then that prompted me to look up chloroform.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And that`s not all. Could George and Cindy Anthony actually be doubting the innocence of their daughter? Wait until you hear the bombshell statement their attorney made last night.
We`ll get to all of it.
But first, joining me are the host of "In Session" on our sister network, truTV, Ryan Smith. And Loni Coombs. She`s a former criminal prosecutor. And Mark NeJami. He is the former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony.
Ryan, first to you, just when we thought the case couldn`t get more bizarre, what happened today?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, this was the strongest witness for the defense so far, because as you mentioned, Cindy got on that stand and mentioned that she was the one who searched for chloroform on that home computer. And the critical thing here is the searches happened in March of 2008. Now, that`s the same time that prosecutors are saying that Casey made that search on that home computer.
But here`s the problem in her testimony, Drew. Records say that she was at work at that time, and Cindy says she was at home searching on the computer.
So, Linda Drane Burdick pressed her on that. She said, no, I kind of made my own hours; therefore, I was able to be at home. And she also admitted on the stand that she never searched for neck-breaking, self-defense, things like that that are also on that computer search.
But I`ve got to tell you, when you hear this testimony and the fact that she searched for chloroform, well, that`s the basis of the premeditated murder claims by the prosecution, that Casey used that chloroform, searched for it, made it, used it, and that used as was one of the agents to kill Caylee. So this could really blow the prosecution`s case out of the water.
PINSKY: Certainly create that reasonable doubt. Thank you, Ryan, as always.
And remember the stain in the trunk of Casey`s car? Well, the prosecution tried to prove it was from a decomposing body. Today, Cindy said the stain was already there. It was there when we bought the car, she says.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who drove the car?
ANTHONY: Mainly George and Lee, but we purchased it specifically for Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you seen that stain before?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where?
ANTHONY: When we bought the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So it`s your testimony that this stain was there when you bought the car?
ANTHONY: There was a few little stains in the car when we bought the car, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Loni, damaging testimony?
LONI COOMBS, FMR. CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR: You know, I just think all of this new information that Cindy`s coming up with, that she didn`t tell the investigators -- this isn`t the first time she`s been asked these questions, obviously.
PINSKY: Well, she had a deposition where she was asked these --
COOMBS: That`s right.
PINSKY: -- and she says that now her memory is better because she`s changed her medication. Right?
COOMBS: Exactly. Exactly. And I think you kind of have to look through all of the stuff that she said today on the stand.
It could have been bombshell, but when you kind of see how it comes out, and it`s not consistent with what she said before, and she says, my memory`s now better, years later, I mean, that doesn`t really make sense. And once you start to pick away at it, like the prosecution does on cross- examination, you kind of think, this might be a woman who is being led by the love she has for her daughter, and not wanting to lose her daughter.
PINSKY: Mark, you have worked with George and Cindy. Help us get our head around Cindy`s testimony today. How are we to believe it?
MARK NEJAME, GEORGE AND CINDY`S FMR. ATTORNEY: Well, I can`t, of course, because I formally represented them. I don`t want to get into anything that might have been deemed confidential.
But I`ll state in a general sense that trials are not linear processes. And people get -- you know, on a good day or a bad day, they go, oh, my God, the case is won or the case is lost.
The reality of it is, is that what`s going to happen now is that you`re going to find that the investigators are going to go out and scour the records at the hospital and attempt to establish if, in fact, she was working on those days. If they find out additional corroborative evidence that show that she was there, in addition to the time sheets, it`s going to, in some ways, destroy her testimony. If they can`t find that, of course, it`s a strong position for the defense.
So I think people need to take a deep breath and realize that this is just the ebbs and flows of a normal trial. And I want to remind everybody of one thing that I think is so essential here.
The state attorney in this case indicted this case before Caylee was found. Before her remains were found, the state believed they had a strong enough case without the forensic evidence.
And I go back to what I`ve been saying for a long, long time. The crux of this case is how she reacted the 31 days after Caylee was missing.
That is indicative, in large part, of her guilt. And not to get too swept up on all the forensics -- it`s important, but it`s not absolutely critical.
PINSKY: Are they focusing their case there? It doesn`t seem like it. They`re not talking -- the court of public opinion is focusing our case on Casey`s behavior more than in the courtroom.
NEJAME: Well, I think that because the forensics came in and they expected it to go in a certain way. But it`s criminal for the prosecution to remain flexible.
I said that from the beginning. If the prosecution was going to have an issue in this case, it`s that they`re going to remain rigid.
They now have to adjust their strategy to what`s coming out in the course of a trial. Any good trial attorney will do that.
Rigidity will kill anything. If you stand up firm and a big wind comes along, you stand up firm, you`re going to snap.
They`ve got to ebb and flow. They might need to go back to focusing in on that 31 days, but they`re going to be checking these work records and see what happens.
PINSKY: I get you. Well, let me ask you this, Mark, before we have -- we`ve got about 30 seconds here.
But as somebody who works in health care, what Cindy Anthony described in terms of her schedule, not at all uncommon, this focus on no overtime and all that. That happens in hospitals and health care all the time. So that made sense with what I know to be standard practice.
I also know that medications can affect memory. Can you tell me, was she on a benzodiazepine or medicines like that that affect memory? Are you able to tell us that?
NEJAME: You know, Dr. Drew, I think it would be improper for me to get into anything during the course of my representation just out of ethical concerns, which I know you understand.
PINSKY: I understand. I do understand. All right, Mark. Thank you very much.
Loni, thank you, as well.
And, of course, Ryan. We always appreciate his reports.
Later, Beth Holloway is here. She will let us in on the similarities between Casey and the man some believed, and believe very strongly, killed her daughter, Natalee.
But next, a jaw-dropping statement from the attorney representing George and Cindy Anthony. You`ve got to hear it to believe it.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: Can you tell us what your results were in those examinations, sir?
STEPHEN SHAW, FBI FORENSIC HAIR AND FIBER EXAMINER: Yes. There were no hairs suitable for meaningful microscopic comparisons purposes found on the Duct tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: I take it that you did not tell them that you made those searches. Correct?
ANTHONY: I did tell law enforcement. In fact, I told you during my deposition in 2009 that I made those searches.
BURDICK: You told me at your deposition that you searched for chlorophyll. Correct?
ANTHONY: Yes.
BURDICK: And you spelled chlorophyll for me. Do you recall that?
ANTHONY: Yes.
BURDICK: Do you recall denying that you made any searches for how to make chloroform?
ANTHONY: I didn`t look up how to make chloroform, I looked up chloroform.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was the state pushing Cindy Anthony on the stand just hours ago.
I`m back with former criminal prosecutor Loni Coombs and Mark NeJame. He is the former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony.
Let`s start with last night`s shocking statement made by Mark Lippman. He is the attorney currently representing George and Cindy Anthony.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: Mark Lippman has told me this -- I asked him this very specific question. I said, "Do your clients George and Cindy Anthony think that she is not guilty?" And his answer was, "They do not think that."
He said they want to see justice done, they want to see the truth come out. And then he added to me -- he said, "They do not believe she is innocent."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. We`re going to have Loni here to help me dissect Mark Lippman`s statement.
What exactly is he saying?
COOMBS: Wow. That`s more detail than what they`ve been saying.
They gave a statement right about at the beginning of this trial where they said, look, we just want the justice system to do what it`s going to do, but we do not agree with the prosecution going for the death penalty. Totally understandable.
PINSKY: OK, which I think when they backpedaled, that`s basically what they said again.
COOMBS: Exactly. And reading between the lines, the way I took it was, look, she may be guilty. We`re not going to stand up and keep proclaiming that she`s innocent, like they had in the past, but we just don`t want her to be killed. We want her to be kept alive.
And this is a more definitive statement saying, you know, we don`t think she`s innocent. That`s pushing it a little further, pretty clearly.
PINSKY: Well, in response to Gary Tuchman`s report, Mr. Lippman issue a statement implying that Tuchman had taken his statements out of context. Here is an expert from that statement.
"Lippman Law Offices does not and will not condone the idea that attorney/client privilege was ever breached. The Anthony family maintains that they simply want justice" -- here we go again with that -- "they do not support any theory that the defense has put forward regarding George Anthony`s actions. The Anthonys do not wish to see that the state achieves the ultimate sanction, which is the death penalty."
Hmm. I want to add that our sister network, CNN, and Gary Tuchman stand behind the report, and they say that when Lippman was asked which statements were taken out of context, Lippman provided no examples.
Now, Mark, is Lippman backpedaling in his latest statement, or is it a clarification?
NEJAME: Well, I found Mark Lippman to be a very honest, ethical person. So I have not been privy to what was said or not, but my experiences with Mark Lippman is he has a lot of integrity. So I think I would go back and ask him. I have not found anything that he`s said or done to be questionable or lacking integrity in the entire time that I`ve seen him present himself.
PINSKY: And Mark, let me apologize to you. I think at the beginning, I called you Mark NeJame. I was coached that was the way to pronounce your name. But I guess it`s NeJame. Is that correct?
NEJAME: That`s correct, but it happens all the time. Don`t worry about it. Thank you though.
PINSKY: OK. I apologize for that.
But you guys are now out in the public. A lot of attorneys who are trying to protect their attorney/client privilege -- I just pushed you on a few issues. Do people just make mistakes and was that just a slip we heard?
NEJAME: Well, I can`t speak to that particular situation. I have no inside information, and it wouldn`t be appropriate for me.
I made it real clear that when it comes to perceptions of them and matters as far as, of course, when I was representing them, I think ethically and confidentiality-wise, it should be their attorney that does the speaking. And I`m not looking to be evasive, it`s just that you, as a doctor, know confidentialities are most paramount.
PINSKY: I get you.
NEJAME: And I`ve honored that throughout and I`ll continue to do that.
PINSKY: I totally get you. It`s just the whole thing feels a little funny. And listen, you guys are out there, and there`s been scrutinizing, questions, and it`s hard. I get it.
Loni, just to clarify, the statement that the Anthonys put out does not suggest that they believe Caylee killed Casey -- Casey killed Caylee, rather.
COOMBS: It doesn`t say that.
PINSKY: It just says that she had some involvement.
COOMBS: But I think you read between the lines, they`re saying, look, we don`t want to call our daughter a killer, but we don`t agree with what the defense is saying and we don`t want the state to be able to kill her.
PINSKY: But wait a minute. Now, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Because I thought there was a little something more in that statement, which was, do you believe she is not innocent, innocent of being involved with this in any way? And they said no, we don`t believe she`s not innocent.
Nobody believes she`s not innocent, even her own parents. Is that what we can conclude.
COOMBS: You know, these parents are in such a sticky situation.
PINSKY: I know.
COOMBS: They really are. And you can`t fault them for what they`re going to say and if they`re going to mush around it.
I do think this is a good example where attorneys need to consider keeping their mouths shut. Even just because the media`s there and throwing a microphone in their face, I think in an abundance of caution, you`ve got to think of your clients, the case first, and preserve the sanctity of that. And you know what? When in doubt, just don`t say anything.
PINSKY: That is a great point.
Now, Mark Lippman addressed the press just moments ago to clarify what he told CNN. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LIPPMAN, ANTHONY FAMILY ATTORNEY: I said that that they don`t necessarily believe she`s not innocent, but we didn`t complete the conversation in that -- the full text of it is that they do not know whether or not she is guilty of the crimes that have been alleged. Certainly, we know that she is not guilty of anything the state has not proven yet. She`s still not guilty until the jury comes back and makes a determination as to what they believe happened.
My clients want to also know what happened, and certainly, that`s why we`re there every day. Hopefully that clears everything up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark, I don`t know about that. I heard a lot of attorney speak. It didn`t clear anything up for me.
What`s your reaction?
NEJAME: Well, I can believe that Mark would have made a statement. You know, all of us were supposed to not make statements until or unless we, of course, have our clients` blessing. So, I again don`t have any inside information.
My experience with Mr. Lippman has been that he has been an ethical, up- front attorney. So I think that you have to listen to what he`s saying and take it from there.
I`ve got to say, though, that I realize that this is a bombshell, but understand, it`s going to be so critical that the testimony that you heard today is going to be extremely valuable for the defense or extremely valuable for the prosecution once further investigation takes place by the state. You know darned well that they`re out there right now with their investigators, figuring out if there`s any corroboration of the time sheets, which had previously been submitted.
If they can show corroboration that she was there, they`re going to be using that at trial. If they can`t find it, then it`s going to be up to the jury. And I think that there`s been clearly reasonable doubt placed in the jury`s mind in some regards today, without question.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mark.
Loni, your reaction?
COOMBS: Well, there`s one more thing that didn`t come up today that they`re going to have to explain, and that is these specific searches that Cindy`s taking all the credit for were erased.
PINSKY: So why were they erased?
COOMBS: Why were they erased and who erased them? I think that`s one more thing that the prosecution can really hit home on.
And the other question too about her memory, I have this question about the medication she was on. When you go off that medication, does your memory really get better?
PINSKY: It does, but if they`re implying a memory problem, why does she remember so specifically what she said during the deposition when she was on the medicine that should have impaired new learning?
COOMBS: Right.
PINSKY: Very difficult.
Thank you, Loni.
Thank you, Mark.
Next, it`s your turn to talk about Casey. I`m taking your calls and your questions and comments.
And later, Beth Holloway, Natalee`s mom, is here. She can relate to the Anthonys. We`re going to have her insights about liars, murder and more, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: It`s very obvious that on those 911 calls, I was scared (EXPLETIVE DELETED), because I didn`t know what was going on and I did and said whatever I need to do to get help. So --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what you did made sense. What she`s doing doesn`t make sense.
ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense, but it would if we find Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Cindy Anthony three years ago, talking about the events surrounding the disappearance of her granddaughter, Caylee.
Let`s hear what you have to say. We`ll start off with a Facebook question.
Pete asks, "Do you think it`s possible that Cindy Anthony fears her own daughter?"
You know, that`s actually a more complicated question than you might imagine, because it`s not as though she would fear her daughter, that her daughter might take out some retribution and harm her. I doubt she has that kind of fear, but there could be a more subtle fear that has caused her to sort of acquiesce to some of Casey`s not so great behavior for quite some time, and maybe she regrets or has guilt about some of her fears, although she still may have them.
Chase writes, "Was today another instance of Cindy coming to the rescue of her daughter, Casey, enabling and empowering her?"
Well, that`s for you all to decide. You know, I`ll tell you what -- her testimony made sense to me. I mean, I`ve seen people in health care do what she said she did with her schedule. I`ve seen medications affect memory.
But a lot of people feel like she was taken the hit again, committing perjury to protect her daughter yet again. A lot of people feel that way.
Let`s take a call right now.
Virginia in Virginia, go ahead.
VIRGINIA, VIRGINIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Virginia in Virginia.
VIRGINIA: What are the odds we may know someone like Casey Anthony? Meaning how many people out of 100 are sociopaths or psychopaths? And what would you advise us to do if we may know such a person?
PINSKY: I don`t know that number of the top of my head, but sociopathy and that spectrum into psychopathy, that spectrum of disorder is actually more common than you might think. We all, I think, all of us, know not just a few, but quite a few, at least liars. We also all know people with a certain amount of personality dysfunction.
To give you in the few moments I have here a sort of recipe or menu for dealing with them would be with almost irresponsible. Let me just say what you need to do is keep your feet square on the ground, know what you know, and expect anything.
I always cultivate the word "whatever." If somebody lies to you, don`t be offended. It`s not about you -- whatever, but make note, they may be quite able to lie about just about anything, and expect just about anything.
Amy in Florida, go ahead.
AMY, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
The defense is trying to purport that George Anthony is a child molester and an adulterer. What`s the likelihood that someone would exhibit both of these behaviors?
PINSKY: Again, you`re asking for sort of statistical answers here. I don`t have those stats off the top of my head, but certainly somebody that is capable of child abuse could be capable of other transgressions. But we all know that somebody who cheats or has a transgression, certainly not a real relationship with child molestation. So I don`t connect those two things.
Next, Beth Holloway is here, and she has some very intriguing comparisons between the man she says killed her daughter, Natalee, and Casey Anthony. That the two of them seem to tell their tales and weave their lies in a very eerily similar fashion.
Don`t go away. You`ll want to hear this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST (voice-over): Beth Holloway`s search for closure spanned six years and thousands of miles all the way to a squalid Peruvian jail to face her daughter`s potential killer. Tonight, she speaks out on the agony of not knowing.
And the similarities between Casey Anthony and Joran Van Der Sloot parallel characters in separate mysteries. Both notorious liars, both accused of murder, both perhaps holding back truth that could solve it all for mourning families.
And later, hair samples, chloroform, and the smell of death. Think prosecutors are winning the case against Casey? Not so fast. I`m talking to a high-powered Florida defense attorney who says the state has not proven Casey killed her daughter.
VINDA DE SOUSA, ATTORNEY FOR DAVID HOLLOWAY: He`s been telling many, many lies over the past five years. So, why should we trust him now? A confession alone will not cut it. We will need supporting evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): If Casey Anthony is the queen of all liars, then Joran Van Der Sloot, who we just saw, is without a doubt the king. He is believed to have killed Natalee Holloway, who disappeared while on a school trip in Aruba. Please welcome Beth Holloway, Natalee`s mom, and psychologist, Lisa Boesky. Also with us is high-profile defense attorney, Jayne Weintraub, who has represented Jose Canseco and Sean Combs.
All right. Beth, first of all, before I get into questioning about the Casey Anthony case, I just want to tell you, I have mixed emotions to see you, because I`ve watched that case from a distance, and I thought, oh, to be in the position of mom or dad must be so overwhelming. So, thank you for joining us and thank you for being a part of this. And hopefully, you know, your being public about this will make a difference for somebody. I thank you.
BETH HOLLOWAY, DAUGHTER MISSING AFTER SCHOOL TRIP TO ARUBA: Thank you.
PINSKY: I mean, it`s just, uh! OK. You believe that Van Der Sloot and Casey Anthony have similar modus operandi. Tell us about that.
HOLLOWAY: I do.
PINSKY: Before I get too emotional.
HOLLOWAY: Thank you, Dr. Drew. I do. Of course, both of them had the litany of lies -- you know, here, from both of them. Something that I think is even more so striking is this mode of operation from the two. From Joran come started out the same way. Oh, I left her at the beach. She`s fine. No involvement. She`s alive, OK? Casey started out the same way, left her with the nanny, she`s fine.
Then as things began to get a little warmer and more uncomfortable, then he changed it to, well, it was an accident, something tragic happened, but, you know, it was an accident. Same thing kind of with Casey. Well, it was an accident. Now, they`ve changed them from an alive Natalee and Caylee to a deceased Natalee and Caylee.
PINSKY: Would he talk about her in the present tense, the past tense and flip back and forth the way Casey does?
HOLLOWAY: Not so much as that, but it`s their whole mode of operation of how they start them out alive.
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And then, now, they both tend to be leading towards now they`ve got them both deceased. Am I making sense?
PINSKY: Absolutely. In fact, it`s kind of getting true to me, because when I try to get my head around what, you know, is Casey capable of this, I believe that guy did what he did. And to hear you make these exact comparisons, Lisa, are those parallels appropriate to make?
LISA BOESKY, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I see that. And I think they both feel that they`re, obviously, above the law, above morals and values. And I think the fact that they both alluded the police and investigators for so long really --
PINSKY: But the way they do it, the way they do it is fascinating. I mean, the fact that two people who were accused of a similar crime and are similar kinds of liars and have told the story in a very similar way, that`s meaningful to me. I think people have patterns.
BOESKY: It shows that level of superiority, that confidence that they told their lies, and it really shows some real lack of remorse, empathy, guilt.
PINSKY: Well, that`s the point. When I talk to profilers, they always make the point that they base their lies on sort of the receptivity of the audience. What the audience is likely to believe in the moment, and you know, they base it on us. People are actually feeling people who have empathy and who would, you know, are concerned and connected with our emotions, and maybe our ability to tolerate these lies evolves in a way that they present them. Make sense?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, absolutely. And then, I look at it like a vortex. Once the lies begin, I call it a vortex of lies.
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: And then, if anybody gets close to the vortex, they get sucked in or the perpetrators begin to throw people into the vortex. Whether it`s their parents, whether it`s --
PINSKY: Well, isn`t it funny? I used the word "vortex," too, that one person can create -- Casey Anthony creates a huge vortex. People like Vasco Thompson get pulled into the vortex. Any passersby just get kind of pulled in, but I`m going to go to an attorney, Jayne, I`m going to go out to you now and ask, does it really make a difference to these cases when somebody lies like this or creates a lot of pain and suffering for other people. Does it really when you get down to it make a difference for the jury?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I`m sure that it does make a difference to the jury. From my perspective, and of course, you know, I`m a mom also and my heart goes out to Beth, and I wouldn`t trade places with Beth or Cindy for anything, but as a lawyer who believes so strongly in the constitution and our due process rights, all I could say is to Beth, lying doesn`t mean killing.
And without regard to the Joran case, I`m looking at Casey`s case, and with all of the evidence that we`ve seen in the past week, from Dr. Spitz, from renowned medical examiners, from all of the experts that testified, and we haven`t even heard from Rory Kronk yet or George Anthony`s mistress, whom was confided that it was an accident that went bad, I mean, there`s so much evidence that cries out that she`s not guilty, because there`s so many reasonable doubts.
We`ll never know what happened, but the state is trying to prove its case based on speculation, maybe this happened, maybe there was chloroform, maybe there was this air in a trunk that`s never been used before. And the other experts say, no, that wasn`t done. And no, there wasn`t decomposition. So, how do you really know? This is a death penalty case. They`re looking to put her to die.
Are we really that sure from the evidence that the state has shown so far? The answer`s clearly not. And so, Dr. Drew, with all due respect to Beth Holloway, I don`t see them similarly alike at all. And don`t forget all the false confessions we have these days.
PINSKY: Right. So you, basically, think (ph) the prosecution`s not doing a good job?
WEINTRAUB: No, I think that the prosecutor -- I think Jeff Ashton is a very skilled, very good lawyer. That has nothing to do with what the evidence is nor does what Jose Baez, what job he`s doing have to do with the fact there`s reasonable doubt, in spite of Jose Baez, whether you like him, you don`t like what he said, it doesn`t matter. His opening statement is not evidence. The evidence came from the witness stand.
And so far, there`s no evidence of how she died, where she died, or when she died. And without that, how do you have a death penalty premeditation first-degree murder? It`s based on, I just think it`s the court of public opinion wants to convict her. And I understand.
PINSKY: Well, the court of public opinion has cast its vote.
WEINTRAUB: I understand.
PINSKY: Thanks, Jayne, I do appreciate it. Beth, I could talk to you all day about this case, and we`re trying to keep it, you know, focused on Casey, and I just get such overwhelmed with feeling when I think about what you must have gone through. Now, let`s sort of say, you know, let`s say you`re in Cindy`s shoes, Cindy Anthony, and you know, she`s gone through similar kinds of loss. Do you relate to anybody in this courtroom at all based on what you`ve been through?
HOLLOWAY: Well, based on what I`ve been through, of course, it is different from what Cindy is going through, but I do know this, as a parent of a missing and murdered child --
PINSKY: Yes.
HOLLOWAY: No parent of a missing, murdered child gives conflicting accounts to explain what happened to their child. And then, their child that`s missing winds up being found dead in three layers of garbage bag.
PINSKY: This is Casey we`re talking about. Yes.
HOLLOWAY: That is definitive in my expertise --
PINSKY: So you were, like Casey, a parent of a missing child.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
PINSKY: And so, you know that feeling.
HOLLOWAY: Yes.
PINSKY: And to see the disconnect between what you felt and what I`m just getting overwhelmed by, by just even contemplating it, Casey does not seem like somebody who lost -- or had normal feelings for a lost child?
HOLLOWAY: It is not anything that is familiar to me, whatsoever, and with any of the other families that I have worked with. As I said, no parent gives conflicting accounts to explain what happened to their child that`s missing, and they wind up being found murdered. No, it doesn`t happen. Parents are dead on, straight on with the facts. They become hyper focused, and they are on it.
PINSKY: Lisa, you have one comment?
BOESKY: Well, I think and that`s one of the similarities between the two is that they both probably did these horrific things. I think the difference between them is if Casey did do this, she now got what she wanted. Her free life, where I think with Joran, it`s different. With Joran, he was -- Casey`s not going to murder anybody else. She`s not likely to hurt anybody else.
PINSKY: Oh, you think because he`s a serial --
BOESKY: But he was serial. He did her, another woman, trafficking. So, I think there`s a differences between them, as well.
PINSKY: OK. Beth, thank you for being here. I just so appreciate it. And whatever we can do to support you, and it`s just -- I`ve been watching you from afar and I don`t have words to describe how I feel about it, but if we can help you, please. Lisa, thank you. Jayne, thank you.
Now, next, do Casey`s parents really doubt their daughter`s innocence? George and Cindy`s attorney is here with us, and he`s going to tell us once and for all what he said and clarify things.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WOOD, RELEASED BALLOON TO REMEMBER CAYLEE ANTHONY: I`ve been following this story ever since it started. And you know, three years ago, I`ve been following this story. And this is just heartbreaking, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why is it so heartbreaking for you?
WOOD: When you have a child, I don`t know how anybody could do that to a kid, you know? Whether what the outcome is on this or not, but I love these kids to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Mark Lippman, the attorney for Cindy and George Antony, joins us now. Yesterday, he said George and Cindy do not believe their daughter, Casey, is not guilty, and he wants to clear this up. He had said this on the heels of Cindy testifying that she had searched chloroform on their computer. Mark joins us from Orlando, and he wants to clear up some of these comments. Mark, help us.
MARK LIPPMAN, GEORGE AND CINDY`S ATTORNEY: Sure, doctor. Thank you for having me. To clear up the comments made, we`d like to -- I`d like to take a look at the total conversation. Certainly, my clients never suggested that their daughter is guilty or not innocent of the murder of their granddaughter, and it was more in reference to the facts of the case as they`ve been presented, so far.
Specifically, they don`t condone or support the idea that the defense has put forward that George Anthony has anything to do with the hiding of the body or the manipulation of the body in any way of Caylee Marie Anthony, and certainly, there`s never been any sort of sexual molestation by George Anthony, in any way, shape, or form. And they can`t condone that.
They can`t support that. So, if that`s what the defense is putting forward on behalf of their client, they`re certainly not going to agree to it or allow those things to be said without presenting the evidence that they`ve presented. And in their testimony, both --
PINSKY: OK
LIPPMAN: I`m sorry, go ahead.
PINSKY: I was going to say, Mark, that I want to help you protect the sanctity of your relationship with your clients here, but I wonder what you can tell us. In other words, you know, Cindy, particularly, has become a very sympathetic figure, and George, you know, has been thrown under the bus, you know, just unbelievably here. Are there things you would like to public to know about these two people that we don`t know that you as their spokesman can help us get our head around?
LIPPMAN: Sure. A couple different things. One, the testimony, apparently, today has been very -- a major testimony on behalf of the defense, and a lot of people seem to think that Cindy is lying. She did not lie. She testified, she is under oath, and she was very truthful. And she maintains that she has only told the truth. When asked the directed and specific question if she researched how to make chloroform, she certainly denied that, as well as denying the aspect of did she search for how to make household weapons.
And certainly, she denied that as well. She was truthful back in 2008 when she told the prosecutors and law enforcement about the chlorophyll and chloroform.
PINSKY: Mark, I`m going to interrupt you. I have such limited time with you. I have so many questions. They`re making an issue of the medication she took. My question is, can you tell us what those medicines are, number one? And then, number two, she seemed to have very exquisite memory of what she said during the deposition, so the medication wasn`t affecting her that day. Help us understand that. I`ve only got about 40 seconds.
LIPPMAN: Sure. The medication is an ever-changing thing for her. The original medication made her groggy and made her forgetful. As you know, certain medications can do that. I certainly can`t disclose the medication that she was on. If the state wants to do that or the defense, they can ask her on the stand, but under both HIPAA and attorney/client privileges --
PINSKY: No, I -- believe me, I understand that, and I`m asking these questions of you only just -- if they want the world to know, then if you`re being instructed to tell, I know you can. But my question is very specific, because the medicines that I know that affect memory, and they can. People got to understand this, they can. Also, by the way, I will stand by what Cindy said about the no -- you know, affecting her own hours and not staying after hours, that kind of stuff. That`s very common in health care.
I`ve been around that a long time. So, I believe that. And I believe that the medication could affect her memory, but how come it didn`t affect her memory the day she was doing the deposition because it should have affected that, too. She seemed to have a clear memory of the deposition itself.
LIPPMAN: Again, I`m not going to comment on anything I`ve discussed with my client, but one can assume either she didn`t take her medication to be clear for the deposition and/or she was on a different type of medication, but those questions weren`t asked and I`m not going to --
PINSKY: All right. I understand. Again, I want to help you -- I do not want you violating anything ethical here. I do not want that. I want you to protect, but I also want these people who we`ve all seen suffering through this incredible experience to have their story told truthfully so we can understand what`s going on. Back to George. Are there things that he wants the public to know about him? He seems to be the suffering grandfather thrown under the bus. What can you tell us?
LIPPMAN: Well, certainly he doesn`t condone anything the defense has said about him, and he doesn`t support anything the defense has said about him, and he`s always been truthful, unwavering in his truthfulness, and his testimony has been direct and to the point for the last three years. And he maintains that he has no idea what happened to his granddaughter, and he wants to find out just like everyone else, but there was a very close relationship there, and this has just been a travesty for the last three years for the suffering that he`s gone through.
PINSKY: Yes, that, I think, is clear. I mean, again, it`s so hard to know from a distance. Now, I want to be clear, get some clarity on this thing. Has Cindy ever told investigators before today that she searched "chloroform." Is this new information today?
LIPPMAN: Yes.
PINSKY: OK.
LIPPMAN: No.
PINSKY: When did they start -- all right. This is sort of putting words in your mouth a little bit, but when did they start to doubt her innocence? Can you say that? Is that getting into this again? Are we crossing a line with that?
LIPPMAN: It`s not that they -- I said I never would comment on the testimony put on by the defense, but, certainly the opening statement made by Mr. Baez is not evidence, and certainly, they don`t support the idea that was presented to us about eight weeks ago that there was any sort of molestation or that George Anthony had anything to do with this cover-up after, supposedly, Caylee had drowned in the pool.
PINSKY: OK. Is there likely to be more cross-examination for Cindy? Is she nervous about that?
LIPPMAN: That`s one thing I`ve never done for either side is comment on when they`re going to be called for testimony.
PINSKY: OK.
LIPPMAN: But they`re under subpoena, and certainly, if they`re called again, they`re prepared to testify to the truth.
PINSKY: OK. And the day that she made the searches, my understanding is she went to work earlier that day and then took a leave as she sometimes did, because she was able to make her own hours. Is that accurate?
LIPPMAN: Yes, that`s what she testified to today.
PINSKY: OK. And finally, did George know ahead of time that the defense was going to accuse him of abuse before the trial started? Can you answer that?
LIPPMAN: Yes. Absolutely. We knew approximately eight weeks ago that the defense was going to go down this road. The thing we didn`t know was the specifics that Mr. Baez alleged in his opening statement.
PINSKY: How graphic and sort of over the top he was going to be?
LIPPMAN: Right. The graphic nature of it was never disclosed, and I don`t know if he took any liberty or embellished --
PINSKY: But mark, one thing, I`ve just got to know, when George found out he was going to be the scapegoat, did he think, bring it to save my daughter or was he just totally outraged? Can you tell us that?
LIPPMAN: All I can say is that he has maintained that he will always tell the truth as he`s done. Anything else that he feels or thinks or does or tells me about, I can`t disclose.
PINSKY: OK. I get you. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. I really do appreciate it. We`re all just trying to understand this, and it`s getting to the truth here is quite a task at a distance, I must tell you. So, but, thank you for --
LIPPMAN: Absolutely. Even close up, it`s very interesting.
PINSKY: Well, that`s interesting to know in and of itself.
All right. When we come back, we`re going to meet a member of my jury who has something to say about Casey`s defense. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I want to be sure to remind my viewers that Beth Holloway hosts the show "Vanished" on Lifetime. Be sure to check that out. Now, it`s time for my jury. Joanne Friedland, a special education teacher from Orlando joins us. Joanne has been following the trial from the beginning. She`s obviously right there on the streets in Orlando, and she received this ticket to see the proceedings in person tomorrow.
Joanne`s had a problem with the defense`s argument that Caylee drowned in the family pool. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: How in the world can a mother wait 30 days before ever reporting her child missing? Well, the answer is actually relatively simple. She never was missing. Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joanne, does that defense theory make any sense to you at all?
JOANNE FRIEDLAND, DR. DREW "JUROR": I think it makes absolutely no sense. I think it was very inappropriate by Mr. Baez to come out with that in his opening statement. If that`s the best he can do, it`s not very good, because even if he`s not -- even if they don`t have the obligation of beyond a reasonable doubt, they have an obligation to the jury to explain how this happened and show some evidence of how this happened.
You don`t see George`s car smelling like death. George was not the last person seen with the child, Casey was. George didn`t go out and party all night long and watch movies right after it happened, but Casey did. It`s just despicable behavior, and she was the last one with the child, and I really do think that she is guilty.
PINSKY: Now, I understand that you`ve had some experience with young people, you`re an education -- or you work in education, you`ve had experience with young people that lie and show no remorse. Tell me about that, and how you think Casey fits those profiles.
FRIEDLAND: Well, I think that I am, you know, certified to teach emotionally handicapped students, and I think from an early age, Casey was probably exhibiting symptoms of being -- having a behavior disorder, but it was probably overlooked, either by her school and most likely by her parents, and they just made excuses for things that she did. I mean, I don`t know that for a fact, but I would suspect that that`s what happened.
PINSKY: I agree with you. And I work with people -- parents a lot of kids that are in real serious trouble, and the parents are the last people to really come to terms with it. So, it makes sense. Do you think Cindy lied today on the stand when she talked about the chloroform and the chlorophyll searches?
FRIEDLAND: Unfortunately, I think that she did. And, you know, part of me can understand. She`s a mother, and she doesn`t want to see her daughter get the death penalty for premeditation, but, you know, I think that she was at work, and I think that she was not being truthful in saying that she did those searches, but I think that she, again, is trying to enable her daughter to get away with murder.
PINSKY: That`s just a few seconds. What do you expect to learn --
FRIEDLAND: I don`t know if it was premeditated or not.
PINSKY: All right. What do you expect to learn in the courtroom tomorrow?
FRIEDLAND: Just more, probably, I guess, forensic evidence, though, if I was a juror, I don`t know. I think -- I know you`re supposed to listen to all of it, but just the behavior and just the way she has conducted herself, and she doesn`t act like she has any emotion whatsoever, and I expect to see that again tomorrow. You know, I haven`t really seen her shed any tears. And I really think that she`s just --
PINSKY: Thank you, Joanne. That seems to be what attracts us all to this is that we can`t look away from the lack of affect. We`ve got one more day to go this week. Who knows what will happen tomorrow, but we will cover it. Thank you all for watching. We will see you then.
END
