Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Life with Casey Anthony
Aired June 23, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, bombshell in the Casey Anthony show. Her parents` lawyer first says George and Cindy don`t think their daughter is innocent then insists he was misunderstood. But if there`s a chance her own family thinks she`s guilty, will jurors?
And we`ll have an inside look at Casey Anthony`s so-called completely narcissistic world. Joy asks, is there such a thing as a bad seed?
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Casey Anthony`s mother, Cindy, was on the stand today in her daughter`s murder trial and her testimony was shocking to many. She told the court that she was the one who searched for "chloroform" on the family computer.
Here now to talk about this and more, are Ashleigh Banfield, ABC News correspondent who`s been covering the case in Orlando; and Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney.
Ok. Cindy Anthony was on the stand and she dropped a bombshell. Let`s listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Do you recall in March of 2008, you doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
BAEZ: And could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, why you did that?
CINDY ANTHONY: I started looking up chloroform -- I mean chlorophyll and then that prompted me to look up chloroform.
BEHAR: That was a major shocker, Ashleigh, am I right?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think you`re absolutely right. I think it was a shock for everyone in the courtroom. There were a lot of jaws that were dropped. I don`t think anybody really expected that. We expected to hear possibly from either George or Cindy Anthony on the stand. I just I don`t think everyone was expecting that.
BEHAR: No. Well, the prosecution then went after Cindy. Watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Even though you`re work record suggests or established that you were working on March 21st of 2008, is it your testimony in front of this jury that you were home between 2:16 and 2:28 p.m.?
CINDY ANTHONY: It`s possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok, it`s possible. Now Mark, can`t they just ask a co-worker if she was at work or not and not at home on the computer?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`d like to think so. Unfortunately none of that was turned over in discovery, they`re not in the list of witnesses and so this big moment where we think that the other side is going to come back and destroy her and expose her for what I believe is the liar that she is, is not going to happen.
I believe Joy that Lady Justice is crying tonight.
BEHAR: Well, ok. That`s rather dramatic but I like it.
EIGLARSH: Yes. I thought so.
BEHAR: I want to watch another part of her testimony today about visiting a chloroform Web site. Watch this -- so good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DRANE-BURDICK: Were you on that Web site 84 times?
CINDY ANTHONY: I was on it several times.
DRANE-BURDICK: Were you on that Web site 84 times?
CINDY ANTHONY: I didn`t do 84 searches of anything. But I don`t know what my computer does while it`s running.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ashleigh, what does her computer do when she`s not there? Nothing, right?
BANFIELD: Well, look it all sounds very funny but there are some very legitimate reasons for that testimony. And then for the witnesses that followed and that was that the defense attorneys in this case believe that they have found a glitch in some of the software that was used to process these facts and numbers. And that is that perhaps the Web site Sci-Spot that was claimed in the prosecution`s case to be have been visited for chloroform searches 84 times was actually MySpace. That the columns didn`t match up in both of those programs.
One program might be right. One program might be wrong. But clearly one of those software programs shows that 84 visits to MySpace happened instead of 84 visits to Sci-Spot. So I think that`s actually very powerful testimony for the defense in this case.
BEHAR: Mark, what do you think about that?
EIGLARSH: I think if believed it`s absolutely very powerful and I agree with Ashleigh.
Here`re some of the problems, however. Cindy actually, contrary to human nature, has a memory that like wine gets better with age. By her own admission, apparently, Cindy-med is going to be catching on. You just take the pill and now your memory gets better.
The other thing that I also find strange is she remembered specific things like pop-ups on the computer from years ago. I just don`t buy it. She did the Cindy and George tour on TV years ago and never mentioned anything like this.
BEHAR: Ok. Let me clarify. Because Cindy also said that she looked up injuries and saw a pop-up ad that had neck breaking on it.
She appeared nervous on the stand. Do you think the jury believes her about that? I mean what was that about, Mark?
EIGLARSH: Do I -- listen -- that`s the million-dollar question. I don`t know what each of these 12 individuals have in their head. I personally have been doing this 20 years, I`m in the criminal justice arena. I can spot a family member who loves their child very much. Doesn`t want to see them die and is willing to risk a perjury conviction to save their child. That`s what I see. It`s transparent to me.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok, thanks very much, guys.
Now let me talk to the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, Mark Lippman. Hi Mark. How are you?
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Very good, Miss Behar. Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Ok. First, I want to get your response to Cindy`s testimony today. It seems like she may be trying to save her daughter, do you think so?
LIPPMAN: No. I think she was telling the truth. She`s maintained all along that she would tell the truth and certainly she did as well today.
BEHAR: Well, there were a couple of things that were a little fishy in her testimony in my opinion. First of all, her deposition was different from what she said on the stand. She Googled "chloroform" and then it pops up 84 more times. There`s a lot of holes in what she said, I thought. But, you know, I`m just watching as a layperson.
LIPPMAN: Sure. And certainly she didn`t say she searched anything 84 times. And then the specific questions, were asked -- did you search how to make chloroform? How to make household weapons and the litany of questions; and she denied searching for any of those things. She only affirmed and told what she said back in `08 that she did do a search on chloroform through her search on "chlorophyll".
BEHAR: Yes, but she said that she did that search at her home and other people know that she was at work that day. How do you justify that?
LIPPMAN: Well, her time sheet as she indicated shows that she was working that day but she also indicated that she`s a salary person. She cannot get overtime so when she would work extra hours she would just fill in certain hours just to make up for the time. So therefore, she may have been home.
She said it was coming up to her anniversary and she went home early possibly on those two days. And she -- this is not new information to anybody. Certainly, the defense had this information just as the state had this information.
BEHAR: Ok. All right.
Well, on another matter, CNN reported that you said George and Cindy do not believe Casey is innocent. Did you say that?
LIPPMAN: It was part of a grand conversation with Mr. Tuchman from CNN so I`ll put it in perspective. The representation coming across from several different media outlets is that my clients don`t believe Casey Anthony is innocent of committing the crimes that she`s been alleged to have committed including the first-degree murder charge.
Certainly I`ve never said that. My clients have never said that. We don`t know what she`s done. That`s why they sit in court day after day trying to learn the truth.
As far as whether or not they believe she`s innocent, they do not condone or agree with the statements made by her defense attorney, Mr. Baez, in his opening statements alleging that George Anthony helped tie the body of Caylee Marie Anthony or that he molested Casey at any point in her life.
So certainly they don`t believe any of those statements and they don`t support those statements but they do support their daughter and they do not want to see the state get the ultimate sanction of the death penalty.
BEHAR: Ok. But in your official statement you did not retract your comment nor say you were misquoted, so it fair to assume you actually said that or not?
LIPPMAN: It was part -- I said that, along with multiple other things, as I explained to Mr. Tuchman. So it was part of an entire conversation and that one word was taken out of context so I`ve put it back into context. I`m a very black and white person and I don`t mince words.
Certainly, I believe in the attorney/client privilege and my clients will not come out and say anything. One, they cannot give testimony or interviews unless directed by the courts since they`re under the rules of sequestration. And two, they want to see the truth come out.
BEHAR: Can you tell me, at least, why Cindy and George are not visiting the girl in prison? Do you know why?
LIPPMAN: Sure. Absolutely. In 2008, they had been visiting regularly. There`s a law in Florida that allows the media to get access to the videos that are created between contact of the prisoners and whoever is visiting them. Every time they had a visit -- we`ve seen the videos in court already -- the media got ahold of it. And then any letters that were written the media got ahold of. So instead of doing that they were sending everything through Jose Baez to get to their daughter.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much for joining me, Mark.
LIPPMAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: And we`ll have more on the Casey trial in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For nine days in August of 2008, a woman named Tracy Conroy lived inside the Anthony home. She was there to watch over Casey after her the bounty hunter Leonard Padilla posted Casey`s bond. Conroy recently told Diane Dimond about the time she spent there and the woman she believes is the real Casey Anthony.
Let`s find out what she said from Diane Dimond, special correspondent for TheDailyBeast.com and "Newsweek" and she got the exclusive interview. Also joining the conversation is Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and marriage and family therapist.
Ok, first of all Diane, explain to the audience and to me, who Tracy Conroy is?
DIANE DIMOND, THE DAILY BEAST/NEWSWEEK: Well, she`s worked in fugitive recovery and the bail industry with Leonard Padilla for many years, but for like 20 years. So she is used to being around people accused of crimes.
BEHAR: I see. So then, why hasn`t she been called to be a witness in the trial? I haven`t seen her on the stand?
DIMOND: Well, she will tell you because the state already had enough witnesses to talk about who Casey really was and her demeanor and all of that. I think that it`s because the state just did not want to even bring up the specter of this TV bounty hunter, Leonard Padilla with the hat and the whole nine yards because then you`d have to explain that.
BEHAR: Ok. The jury will never hear any of this anyway, right?
DIMOND: I don`t think so.
BEHAR: No.
DIMOND: I don`t think they`re being allowed to read "The Daily Beast."
BEHAR: Ok now she told you about her first meeting with Casey.
DIMOND: Yes.
BEHAR: What did she say?
DIMOND: Well, she just got out of jail, just bonded out, came home and Tracy was there. And you`d expect, you`re just out of jail, you`ll be a little teary, you cry, you know, what`s happening with the search for my daughter.
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: No. She sort of bounced in and said, hi. You`re the babysitter, huh, nice to meet you.
BEHAR: Babysitter for her? For Casey?
DIMOND: Babysitter for her.
BEHAR: Yes and how long had the child been missing at that point?
DIMOND: Oh gosh, six weeks.
BEHAR: Six weeks. So she was cheerful.
Bethany, it sounds like Casey was happy to see her and didn`t seem to be --
(CROSSTALK)
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes, she was.
BEHAR: Yes. Does that sound a little off to you?
MARSHALL: Well, it does. But you have to keep in mind the mindset of the sociopath. In order to understand the sociopath, think of a 6-month- old infant. Baby is only happy when mommy is maternally available. And when mommy is with the baby, baby is blissful, when mommy walks out of the room baby gets angry and screams and cries. This is how sociopaths are.
So her royal highness the baby, Miss Casey Anthony has gotten the other bad baby out of the way, right?
BEHAR: I see.
MARSHALL: The other baby is not there for competition and now who`s the baby? Casey is the baby and the party is growing and more people are coming over to the house. The new woman comes in --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It makes sense.
MARSHALL: -- and she says, you`re the babysitter? See, baby, baby, baby.
BEHAR: I love that, her highness the baby.
DIMOND: You know, can I --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead sure.
DIMOND: -- I`ll tell you real quick on that line, Bethany, that`s fascinating because at one point Tracy said she was looking at a baby book of Caylee`s pictures and sort of cooing about it. And Casey crossed the room and said, "Well, here`s my baby book. Look at mine. Look at me when I was that age."
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you make --
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Exactly.
MARSHALL: Isn`t that`s what 2 year olds do?
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: Two year olds do that. I mean, you give attention to one child and then, the other child will grab the toy and say, no, me, mine, it`s all mine. Can you see how with this mindset Casey would have mounting tension and anxiety as her little girl gets older and commands more attention?
And don`t forget, with (INAUDIBLE) homicide, it`s like any compulsion after the person completes the act of homicide, there`s tremendous relief that can outlast from six to 12 months. Sometimes even two years.
So the fact that she showed no concern that her little girl was missing could be that she`s in the relief phase after having committed homicide.
BEHAR: So she almost feels likes Caylee is a sibling, right? Bethany, it`s almost like siblings rivalry instead of she`s the mother and that`s the child?
MARSHALL: It`s well -- sibling rivalry on speed.
BEHAR: On speed.
MARSHALL: You know, not sibling rivalry between two 16-year-olds or two 21-year-olds.
BEHAR: Yes.
MARSHALL: Sibling rivalry between two angry two-year-olds who are screaming and clawing at each other.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, what did she say about the family dynamics?
DIMOND: Tracy Conroy while she was there for nine days and nine nights -- she would have stayed longer but they took Casey back to jail -- said George Anthony, the father who`s a former cop, was angry. There was a huge outburst one night. Where is this baby? You tell me and Casey screamed back and the bottom line was, Cindy and Casey told George to get out of the house.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The -- the mother --
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Just -- just get out of the house.
BEHAR: The mother went with Casey in that case.
DIMOND: Yes.
BEHAR: And threw George out?
DIMOND: And he left.
BEHAR: George really wanted to know? He was desperate to know?
DIMOND: Well, wouldn`t you be as a parent? You`d sit your kid down and say -- where is that baby? Cindy --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: See that`s interesting because they`re trying to paint George as the villain, the defense is. And here you`re telling a story about he is protective towards the -- the child that`s missing.
DIMOND: Exactly. And Cindy on the other hand, she said -- just acted like there was nothing wrong. Cooking and cleaning. If things are normal then maybe Casey will tell us what happened. It`s a strange dynamic.
BEHAR: What`s wrong with Cindy, Bethany, in this scene?
MARSHALL: Well, Joy it could be co-dependency. But it also could be that Cindy is tap-dancing doing whatever she can to appeal to her daughter`s narcissism by catering to her daughter`s every need in order to find out where the baby is.
We do this a lot in forensic psychology, if you have a patient you`re trying to treat and they have a criminal attitude, you kind of fluff them up and appeal to their narcissism to get what you want.
BEHAR: I see.
MARSHALL: Like a child molester who won`t admit what happened. She`ll say, look, you know what, you`re going to look so wonderful in the eyes of your family and society if you tell what happened and you`re going to help fix this little kid`s life.
BEHAR: I see.
MARSHALL: And they`ll be like, oh, oh, let me tell you. So I think Cindy is appealing to her daughter`s narcissism and catering to her out of sheer desperation.
BEHAR: And so it`s sort of like Cindy and George are good cop, bad cop.
DIMOND: So to speak?
BEHAR: Yes.
DIMOND: Exactly.
BEHAR: Ok, we`ll continue this after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my guests and we`re talking about life with Casey Anthony. So Diane, tell me about -- this person had access to Casey for all this time. Did Casey talk about the fact that she got this tattoo that said "bella vita"?
DIMOND: Yes, she did as a matter of fact. Tracy Conroy kept telling me. I was so surprised that she never brought up the baby. She wouldn`t talk to the EquiSearch people about the search. She wouldn`t -- it was like we were girlfriends having a slumber party.
BEHAR: The baby never came up.
DIMOND: The baby never came up from Casey. One day she brings her up and she said, hey, you know, Caylee, why aren`t you talking to the EquiSearch people. And she said, look at the tattoo I got, I got in memory of her. I got it -- what are you talking about?
And she said, this was well before anybody knew this child was dead. But Casey always talked about Caylee in the past tense.
BEHAR: Bethany, wouldn`t she try to cover it up? Why would she talk about her in the past tense and say I got this in memory of her?
MARSHALL: Well, first of all, you have to remember that mothers that kill their children do so because they want an idealized life, with new romantic and sexual partners so that`s why she got the tattoo. But secondarily, sociopaths have very low levels of anxiety about getting into trouble and getting caught. So they tend not to conceal their crimes too well.
This is why they lack a conscience. Anxiety is what causes the conscience to form. When we`re little and our mothers get mad at us, we get anxious and say, mommy`s going to withdraw her love and that anxiety causes the conscience to form very incrementally.
So if you think she has no conscience, she has now anxiety, all these people who are in her household, it`s her party. It`s like her big birthday coming-out party. She`s not going to cover this up. She`s not anxious about getting into trouble. And that`s what we see in court as well. That`s why she has that placid expression on her face.
BEHAR: It`s like a deep denial? You wouldn`t call it that, Bethany?
MARSHALL: I would say it`s almost -- in the field of psychoanalysis we call it super ego lacunae (ph) -- it`s a hole in the person`s super ego. It`s an emptiness in their functioning. That`s why with sociopaths you have promiscuity, drug abuse, thrill-seeking, sadism, because it`s to cover up all the emptiness that`s caused by the lack of internal stimulation from lack of anxiety.
BEHAR: Very interesting.
What about the brother? What did she say about her brother, Lee?
DIMOND: Oh, that was a very interesting part. That`s part of this piece in The Daily Beast. She kept saying to Tracy -- she would look out every morning and see how many media trucks were there and one day she said, "Oh, there`s no helicopters because there`s rain and the thunderstorms." Oh. But --
BEHAR: Again with the party thing.
DIMON: She said, as she turned to Tracy and she said, in fact, did you hear the media say that my brother was the father of Caylee? She brought this up two or three times and Tracy finally said -- no, I`ve never heard that and I think it`s kind of sick. She said she got the feeling that Casey was trying out this story on her to see how it would be accepted.
BEHAR: Oh, boy. She`s a real beauty, this one.
Thank you, ladies, so much and to read Diane`s interview with Tracy Conroy go to TheDailyBeast.com.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: A Southwest Airlines pilot was suspended after he inadvertently broadcast a rant by his flight attendants over an air controller channel. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PILOT: Eleven out of twelve. There`s twelve flight attendants, individuals, never the same flight attendant twice. Eleven [ bleep ] over the top, [ bleep ], homosexuals and a granny.
Eleven, I mean think of the odds of that. I thought ours in Chicago, which was party land. After that, it was just the continuous stream of gays and grannies and grandes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK, I missed the good old days when the Southwest pilots were just drunk and missed their destinations. Here to talk about that, another interesting news of the day, are Alec Mapa, comedian and actor, Raven- Symone, actress, singer and star of "State of Georgia" on ABC Family, and Dan Savage, gay activist and editor of "The Stranger." "L`estrangier", we like to call it.
DAN SAVAGE: L`estrangier (ph).
BEHAR: OK, now Southwest Airlines has condemned this.
ALEC MAPA, COMEDIAN/ACTOR: Don`t they have enough problems? Isn`t Southwest Airlines the one where the seam was ripping on the plane in Sacramento?
BEHAR: They have a sunroof.
MAPA: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: It`s the only airline that has sunroofs on their plane.
MAPA: This couldn`t have happened at a worst possible time. And first of all, this pilot has no reason to trash his own staff. That`s the majority of the staff. I mean .
DAN SAVAGE, GAY ACTIVIST: And the problem is, that they haven`t released the name of the pilot so all the flight attendants are looking at all the pilots wondering, is this the douche bag?
MAPA: Right.
SAVAGE: Who said that?
MAPA: Right.
SAVAGE: It can`t be conducive to have to work with.
MAPA: Right. Like, ew, girl, were you trashing me on the last flight? Because I`m touching your food.
BEHAR: But Raven, shouldn`t the flight attendants know the name of the pilot these people are working with?
RAVEN-SYMONE, ACTRESS/SINGER: I don`t even think they care that much, the way they go through the airport so fast with their little bags and like run you over through the security, I don`t think they care at all.
BEHAR: They don`t care.
RAVEN-SYMONE: He`s missing his meds.
SAVAGE: I actually know some Southwest flight attendants and they`ve been sending me e-mails about this, and they`re really angry and they want the guy`s name released. They know who hates them. And they want the guy fired for trashing .
BEHAR: Isn`t it shocking that .
(CROSSTALK)
MAPA: You know who is not shocked by this story? Straight guys. I temped for years and years and years. And the thing about -- when you look like me, when you`re a little brown person, you are invisible. I mean, people would have the most homophobic, sexist, ageist conversations right in front of me. And .
BEHAR: Did they think you were Yoko Ono?
MAPA: I think so. I did a little (inaudible), you know. You broke up the "Beatles." Where is my coffee. So they would have these conversations. And there`s a certain way that straight men speak to each other .
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPA: About other people .
BEHAR: How does it go?
MAPA: Well, it`s exclusively about sexual--
(CROSSTALK)
RAVEN-SYMONE: I thought it was that way with everybody --
MAPA: . with everybody. I mean gay guys do it too.
RAVEN-SYMONE: Yes.
MAPA: Always about .
BEHAR: Who`s hot .
MAPA: . and who has something to offer you and everything. And so, I don`t believe that this conversation is shocking among them. Among the people who are having this conversation.
BEHAR: No.
MAPA: But with that many homosexuals working for the airline industry .
BEHAR: Exactly.
MAPA: I mean, that`s how I get free booze on the plane all the time.
RAVEN-SYMONE: He doesn`t sound like he`s angry. He just sounds like he tried to make a pass and somebody totally said no to him, so he went off and did all this.
BEHAR: No, he wants to get, you know, some action. He wants .
(CROSSTALK)
MAPA: He`s not getting it from the gays or the grannies.
SAVAGE: You think it`s mad man slash coffee (inaudible) era of airline travel, and it ain`t.
BEHAR: But don`t you think, Dan, no, if anybody was listening in on a conversation could get caught with something weird and something a little off? Not like this exactly.
SAVAGE: Read my tweets.
MAPA: Well, seriously, if you were talking to Dan.
BEHAR: Come on. Are we also squeaky clean when we talk to our intimates? Come on.
SAVAGE: No, we`re not. But weren`t you called -- one of the folks who was for Anthony Weiner resigning?
BEHAR: Well, I was one of the first people to call for his resignation.
SAVAGE: So .
BEHAR: What about it?
SAVAGE: So, are you trying -- are you saying that pilot deserves a pass because everybody talks like this privately? Anthony Weiner was speaking privately.
BEHAR: No, I don`t say -- I don`t say he deserves the pass. I`m just saying, you know, we all do it. That`s all. I`m just saying that. Then we all get caught. We might get caught.
MAPA: He got caught.
SAVAGE: Well, OK, so maybe we should give him a pass after they take him out and publicly flog him?
RAVEN-SYMONE: Rude.
BEHAR: Well, they have suspended him. Do you think he should be fired?
RAVEN-SYMONE: Yes.
SAVAGE: I think they should have a vote among the flight attendants about whether to fire the guy. Because if this is uncharacteristic, if he was just engaged in some trash talk that he thought was private, his colleagues that worked with him in the, you know, the front of the plane crew, they`ll be able to speak up in his defense. If they can think it was out of character.
RAVEN-SYMONE: I think .
SAVAGE: But if the guy is a complete and total douche bag, he should go.
MAPA: Yeah.
BEHAR: But he`s been working for the airline over -- I think over ten years.
SAVAGE: Right.
BEHAR: He has got a clean record. It`s really speech we`re talking about.
SAVAGE: Right.
BEHAR: Should someone be fired for speech?
MAPA: I think he should work as a flight attendant for a month.
BEHAR: OK.
MAPA: But in a full-on drag.
BEHAR: That would be good.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: People get fired for speech in the workplace all the time. If you created an unsafe work environment or hostile work environment for women or for sexual minorities or for sexual majorities -- you know, it`s not .
RAVEN-SYMONE: That`s true.
SAVAGE: It`s illegal to create an unsafe work space for straight people in the workplace, too.
BEHAR: But they say the workspace was him and the copilot. I mean, it`s a very small space. I don`t know, I don`t know if he should be fired. I don`t know if I would fire him. He didn`t really -- he didn`t injure anybody. He was just saying stupid things. Stupid, stupid things.
SAVAGE: Stupid things.
MAPA: Do you think stupid, stupid things?
RAVEN-SYMONE: There was some type of pain, there was some type of anger behind his voice when he was saying it. It wasn`t like a joke.
BEHAR: Was it?
RAVEN-SYMONE: When I heard it.
BEHAR: Yes.
RAVEN-SYMONE: Well, you can play around with your friends but there`s like some type of anger.
MAPA: You think it was a cry for help?
RAVEN-SYMONE: I think that, you know, the turbulence knocked something off.
MAPA: There would be altitude, they wouldn`t let anything happen.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yeah. I still think that everybody should know who he is, though, so that they can deal with him.
OK, now, here`s another topic. This weekend is the annual gay pride parade here in New York City, and our own little Dan Savage is the grand marshal. So, Dan, are you inviting the Southwest pilot?
SAVAGE: Oh, yeah, if I can ride in his cockpit, he can ride in mine.
(CROSSTALK)
MAPA: That`s Dan Savage.
BEHAR: OK, let`s talk about the gay pride parade. But I think they`re going to show some footage of some of it.
SAVAGE: Right.
BEHAR: And we`re seeing it in the background? Yes. OK. There they are. OK. Straight but not narrow-minded. OK, that looks fairly benign what they`re showing right now.
MAPA: Where is the footage of the drag queens and the leather queens that they always trot out?
BEHAR: Yes.
MAPA: When they have this argument year after year after year.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: Now, there are some sex radicals.
MAPA: Oh, there we go. There we go .
BEHAR: There`s the money shot.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: Straight people don`t dress like that except at Mardi Gras, or Las Vegas, or Halloween, or -- I mean, the argument is like, oh, this makes gay people look bad and we shouldn`t express ourselves like this in public, and it`s somehow -- somehow harms the gay rights movement. 40 years every year we`ve had this, 40 years. And the gay and lesbian movement for civil rights has advanced farther and faster than any other civil rights movement in our history. Not despite the pride parade, in part because of the pride parade.
BEHAR: Well, how do you mean? What do you mean?
SAVAGE: Well, you see those guys on floats -- and you are glad that the gay people that live next door to you and your kids don`t parade out of their house every morning like that, right?
BEHAR: Oh, you mean in the parade? In the Midwestern someplace, you know, they`re there in New York.
(CROSSTALK)
MAPA: They`re in New York, but I mean that`s the perfect example is, like, no New Yorkers are reacting to the gay pride parade at all.
BEHAR: No, but New York is different.
MAPA: I know, but that kind of sets a precedent for everybody else. I mean originally there were two gay pride parades, it was this and San Francisco.
SAVAGE: Right.
MAPA: And that was it. And now there`s a pride celebration in Dallas, in Philadelphia .
BEHAR: That`s great.
MAPA: In Atlanta.
BEHAR: I mean, people say it gives them .
SAVAGE: The pride parade is a celebration of sexuality and sexual differences. And when straight people say we don`t have a pride parade, I would say, oh, yes, you do. It`s called Mardi Gras. And if you want to see straight people behaving in public just like gay people behave in the pride parade, go to the New Orleans and Mardi Gras. That is a straight pride parade.
BEHAR: I would make the point that, you know, you`re giving --you might be giving ammunition to the enemy. People who don`t want gays to get married and they don`t want gays to have civil rights, so they look at this and they say, you see how crazy they are?
SAVAGE: But we want equal rights. We don`t want rights to a double standard where we have to behave ourselves in public in all times in the way that straight people don`t. Straight people don`t have to behave at all times--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Listen, I agree with you.
RAVEN-SYMONE: Like you`re trying to -- you know, it`s like ridiculous, what year are we in? Why are we still worried about this? This is the type of culture that has been here since the Roman times and past.
BEHAR: I know that. And we have a very .
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: We have a lot of narrow-minded people in the country, and the argument against the parade is you`re giving ammunition to them to say, "Look at this." And the answer to the Mardi Gras thing is the people who are in the Mardi Gras parade, or the Saint Patrick`s Day Parade, who might be getting drunk or what have you, they`re not fighting for their rights right now.
RAVEN-SYMONE: The girls who are on "Girls Gone Wild" are. It`s like that`s where they`re found. And I think it`s just rude that we keep going after certain people just because you don`t feel a certain way because .
BEHAR: But would it help if you had some button-downed suits walking?
SAVAGE: But you do. You do. You do .
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Like all the gays on Wall Street march in the parade. They do.
SAVAGE: They do every year. They just don`t show them. The people the media goes to the parade and takes the pictures of are the flamboyant people.
BEHAR: Yes.
SAVAGE: And of course, they`re good video and they`re fun.
BEHAR: Right.
SAVAGE: And we shouldn`t ..
BEHAR: That`s the fun of it.
SAVAGE: Yes. And the folks who use it as ammunition against us, if we didn`t hand them like, a scary drag queen, and America is not afraid of drag queens in America anymore. America loves drag queens. If we didn`t hand them that ammunition, they just make crap up.
BEHAR: They are.
SAVAGE: They lie, and lie, and lie.
MAPA: And I think this argument is becoming less and less frightening each year, because it`s annual. It`s annual. Every June, this argument comes up. Is the gay pride parade bad?
BEHAR: Right. Right.
MAPA: And I think more and more gay people are becoming less and less scary to people because it`s kind of like, well, whatever.
BEHAR: To me, it`s the most fun event of this season.
MAPA: Exactly.
RAVEN-SYMONE: I think it`s amazing. And I think it`s also kind of rude that people if you go, if you`re not gay and you go, you`re automatically lumped in there with your sexuality preference. And I think that`s unfair as well.
BEHAR: Oh, you mean, if you march, they`ll think you`re a lesbian?
RAVEN-SYMONE: Well, you know .
SAVAGE: Not in those shoes. You should see those shoes.
RAVEN-SYMONE: I`m just saying you can have friends within that culture and it`s sad that people just automatically go to a certain way and it shouldn`t matter at all.
MAPA: If you marched in the parade, that would cement your status as an icon forever and ever.
RAVEN-SYMONE: Don`t play with me.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh my god. All right .
MAPA: You`ll be the new Liza.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: If we don`t watch -- we`ll be watching you on television, Dan, Dan is the grand marshal.
SAVAGE: With my husband Terry Miller.
BEHAR: With your husband.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Very good. And who`s your husband?
MAPA: My husband is Jamie Herbert, he is the producer. I married well.
BEHAR: And you can see Raven-Symone` in ABC Family`s new comedy "State of Georgia" premiering Wednesday night at 8:30. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: John Leguizamo has starred in many films, including "Carlito`s Way" and "To Wong Foo ." What it`s called, "Wong Foo?
JOHN LEGUIZAMO, ACTOR: "Wong Foo, Thanks for Nothing, Julie Newmar."
BEHAR: There you go. But I know him from his fabulous one-man shows where he talks about his family with scathing truth and unmitigated hilarity. His new Broadway show, is "Ghetto Klown." And he`s with me now, welcome to my show, John. You know, I want to tell you right at the top, I`m a huge fan of yours.
LEGUIZAMO: Likewise.
BEHAR: I`ve seen all your shows, I just think you`re just phenomenal, OK?
LEGUIZAMO: Now you`re making me -- my kishkish (ph) are coming out. I`m losing my kishkish.
BEHAR: I just think you`re great. And you say that this new show is like Wikileaks, but with no international manhunt. I think it`s a great way to describe the show. Explain what you mean?
LEGUIZAMO: I mean that I -- I go after my family, myself, everyone. But there`s no manhunt because who`s going to -- who cares about my family, except my family but they`ll come for me.
BEHAR: They`ll come?
LEGUIZAMO: Oh, yeah.
BEHAR: Have they seen your shows?
LEGUIZAMO: My mom saw it and she had a couple of requests. You know, please cut out the last scene. I go, mama, I`m not talking about that last scene -- because it is about a scene where I`m having phone sex and she calls me by accident .
BEHAR: Oh, yeah.
LEGUIZAMO: And I was like -- mom, I`m not having this conversation.
BEHAR: Oh, that seems hilarious.
LEGUIZAMO: She goes, then don`t do it. I said, mom just don`t talk to me anymore. Because we`re talk about something that`s really disgusting between the two of us. Then it wasn`t between the two of us, it was .
BEHAR: Well, it was a mistaken identity.
LEGUIZAMO: It was mistaken -- yeah.
BEHAR: Yeah. So, she wanted you to cut the scene.
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah.
BEHAR: How about Dad? How is he taking it?
LEGUIZAMO: You know, my father is like my Darth Vader. You know, like, and so, we don`t really talk.
BEHAR: Yeah.
LEGUIZAMO: We have these moments where, you know, he`s ill and I go visit him ..
BEHAR: Oh, is he sick now?
LEGUIZAMO: He was. I think he is better now. But I don`t know -- so because I don`t talk to him so I don`t know, but I hope he is.
BEHAR: You don`t talk to him?
LEGUIZAMO: No, you know, my father and I -- we have a very difficult relationship. You know, I don`t know. We have the wrong signs. He`s the earth sign, I`m a water sign, together we make mud.
BEHAR: You know what, since we`re on the topic, let`s look at a moment in the show with you and your father, OK? Let`s watch, we have a little clip.
LEGUIZAMO: This is going to be painful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEGUIZAMO: I`ve got a Drama Dash (ph) nomination, and I invited my now divorced parents to the ceremony. And, of course, I don`t win. I`m just a runner-up. And my father`s congratulations, amigo. Of all the losers, you came in first place. I`m sorry to disappoint you, dad. No, amigo, it`s not you, it`s me. I got to get used to your failures.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: OK.
LEGUIZAMO: But that was good for me.
BEHAR: Yeah, that was rather mild.
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah.
BEHAR: Because you really take him on and .
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah, but it`s good -- I mean, I think all that sort of psychological and emotional abuse was great. It made me who I am, and it made me strong and made me, you know, made me write and creative and otherwise, you know, this business would have crushed me a long time ago.
BEHAR: Frank McCourt who wrote "Angela`s Ashes", he says, I think it`s the first line of the book, he says, "the happy childhood is almost not worth having."
LEGUIZAMO: I know. I agree. It`s like I feel terrible for my children. I don`t know how I`m going to add adversity to their life. I got to figure out a way to make their life really difficult.
BEHAR: I know. It skips the generation. They`ll make the next group miserable.
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah, right. Usually.
BEHAR: But I mean, he wasn`t encouraging. Was your mother encouraging?
LEGUIZAMO: She was, I mean, she was the queen of passive/aggressives. But she was -- she was good. A lot of times she would say things like, you know, amigo I`m glad you have failed. It just makes you more adorable. But she didn`t mean that. She wanted me to do better and she wanted me to be less adorable, but you know.
BEHAR: I love it, you do the female thing just hilarious.
LEGUIZAMO: No, I worked on that. I wanted to get that just right so I could really skewer them properly.
BEHAR: Yes. And you did. Does your wife have any objections to your show?
LEGUIZAMO: She had a few objections and you know, and I cut that scene out whenever she goes to see the show, so she doesn`t know, but now she knows.
BEHAR: Do you really?
LEGUIZAMO: Seriously.
BEHAR: You just cut the scene out.
LEGUIZAMO: Yes, the scene between my son that she doesn`t like. So I told her I cut it out. An she comes into the show, I take it out. She leaves the theater and I put it back in.
BEHAR: I guess you want to get a little action--
LEGUIZAMO: Well, I`m not going to be getting now after she finds out about this. It will be a month before this warms up again.
BEHAR: Another part of the show that`s so great is the inter --
LEGUIZAMO: When you get married, you say you do and then you don`t ever again.
BEHAR: That`s the problem, isn`t it? You have great stories about other actors. Like Al Pacino. What did Al say to you after you changed some of the lines in "Carlito`s Way?" He said something, tell the audience.
LEGUIZAMO: Oh, my God, Pacino was -- I mean, he was great. He is one of the greatest actors and he taught me, you know, I was going crazy, man. I was -- I was full of feck (ph), I was feckened. Is that Yiddish too?
(CROSSTALK)
LEGUIZAMO: I was very creative, that`s what it means. And I was doing all these crazy lines, like I`m the mack daddy daddy mack into his face. And he was like, "John, what the -- be yourself, you clown. You`re a clown, John, just be yourself." And he was right. I mean, that was the biggest clue of my life is like I don`t have to try so hard. I don`t have to prove so much. Just be yourself, which takes a long time to get to that.
BEHAR: Oh, yeah, many years.
LEGUIZAMO: You can understand it but you can`t actually execute.
BEHAR: You`re scared at first and insecure.
LEGUIZAMO: You always feel like you`re never enough.
BEHAR: You`re never enough. And I guess working with somebody like Pacino, you feel like --
(CROSSTALK)
LEGUIZAMO: Oh, my God, he`s the king of actors, and that lesson just resonated the rest of my life.
BEHAR: But he was nice to you, right?
LEGUIZAMO: He was nice, yes. He was a sweetheart off camera. Yes, it was just when I was too much, he had to put me in my place, and I needed to be put in my place.
BEHAR: And it worked. OK, stay here. We`re going to have more with John Leguizamo on the way. Just sit tight. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEGUIZAMO: I was mad ambitious, man. So I became the school class clown. That`s me. That`s me with my sad fro. I know, I wouldn`t even sit with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s John Leguizamo and his one-man show on Broadway, "Ghetto Klown." You know, just as an aside, I`m playing your mother in "Ice Age 4."
LEGUIZAMO: You`re a little young for it, but yes.
BEHAR: I`m your mother. It`s just our voices.
LEGUIZAMO: And Wanda Sykes is my grandmother.
(CROSSTALK)
LEGUIZAMO: She`s your mother.
BEHAR: I love that.
LEGUIZAMO: I love this black, Latin Jewish combo. That`s how the future of the world will be.
BEHAR: I`m not Jewish, I`m Italian.
LEGUIZAMO: You`re Italian?
BEHAR: Yes, how do you like that?
LEGUIZAMO: Joy Behar?
BEHAR: Yes, it`s the husband--
LEGUIZAMO: But you know the Yiddish.
BEHAR: I do.
LEGUIZAMO: My wife is Jewish, though.
BEHAR: Oh, yeah, well, we like Jewish partners.
LEGUIZAMO: I love that. It`s so good.
BEHAR: You know, somebody -- an acting coach thought you could be the Latino Laurence Olivier. Did you know that Danny Kaye and Laurence Olivier were lovers? Did you know that?
LEGUIZAMO: I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: Yeah.
LEGUIZAMO: Did they know that?
BEHAR: They knew it.
LEGUIZAMO: Are they sure they knew that?
BEHAR: Yes, they knew that.
LEGUIZAMO: I don`t think they knew that.
BEHAR: They used to have a rendezvous at the airport and they would have a little thing.
LEGUIZAMO: Team Z (ph) catch some of that?
BEHAR: No, it was years ago. It`s actually a legend but I think it`s true. Anyway--
LEGUIZAMO: A crazy legend, man.
BEHAR: How do you feel about that, the Laurence Olivier of it? That`s pretty good.
LEGUIZAMO: That he was having sex with -- well, how do I feel about that, well, good for them. I`m glad they had fun. They should have fun.
BEHAR: No, that you were considered the Latino Olivier.
LEGUIZAMO: Oh, by my acting teacher? Well, you should have met my acting teacher. She was about this tall, Sylvia, you know, Sylvia Myrtle (ph) was her name, and she was incredible. She would say you`re going to be my Latino Laurence Olivier, you little Spanish mug. And she would make me work on tongue twisters because -- you have such a thuggish (ph) sound, we`re going to have to work. She`d make me do tongue twisters, and the lips, the teeth, the tip of the tongue, spitting at everybody on the subway all day long.
BEHAR: Like "The King`s Speech."
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah, like "The King`s Speech." No, I didn`t have that kind of problem, but yes. I just sounded ghetto. I just talked like this, what`s up, bathroom. It was so bad we couldn`t afford a t-h.
BEHAR: You got over it.
LEGUIZAMO: Look at the way I sound now.
BEHAR: Like Laurence Olivier.
LEGUIZAMO: Yeah. Incredibly refined.
BEHAR: Before we go, I only have like 45 seconds left. I want you to do--
LEGUIZAMO: That`s what my wife says.
BEHAR: I know, well, that`s all it takes. Let`s face it.
LEGUIZAMO: With me. I`m not going to lie.
BEHAR: But Steven Segal, quick, what happened with him?
LEGUIZAMO: Oh, Segal. You know what a gentleman he is. So we were doing this movie, "Executive Decision." And he tells me, "I`m in command, what I say is law. Do you disagree"?
And I started cracking up in his face. I thought, who talks like that? I mean, come on for real, you know? So he tae kwan do`s me against a brick wall and knocks all the air out of me. And all I could think was, you run like a girl. You run like a girl. Because he does. You know how he runs? He runs like this. Like a double dutching little beep.
BEHAR: You got him back on your show.
LEGUIZAMO: I sure did, baby. I know he wants to knock me out me. He said he`s going to knock me out the next red carpet he sees me. I don`t think we`re going to see him on too many red carpets.
BEHAR: No.
If you want to see more of John Leguizamo, and the whole wonderful show he does--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You can see "Ghetto Klown" right now at the Lyceum theater in New York City. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
