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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Ruled Competent to Stand Trial
Aired June 27, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but that her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, then George hides it, leaving it to rot. Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her.
Bombshell tonight. We learn tot mom wants to bring the trial to a screeching halt, claiming she`s too mentally ill -- street word, "crazy" -- to go on. That`s right, tot mom wants to stop the trial mid-stride because she decides now she`s crazy. This as two defense private investigators claim they poked around near Caylee`s remains and saw no body. So now the defense is claiming since the PIs didn`t see Caylee`s skeleton, then the body wasn`t there, so tot mom goes free.
And tonight, rumors of a tot mom bus tour in Orlando, more parasites making blood money off little Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A legal issue has arisen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It got into something totally, totally crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would necessitate us recessing.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: It`s sickening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey`s state of mind was in question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant to be examined by three psychologists to determine her competency to proceed.
CASEY ANTHONY: They really need to get a life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three mental health experts, two psychologists and a psychiatrist.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey told me she was crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defendant is competent to continue to proceed.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know what the hell`s going on!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a decomposing human body in the trunk of that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can find no other plausible explanation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would that trash be sufficient to leave a smell in the vehicle two years after it was removed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would be unlikely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Onions, cabbage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could find also these items in a hamburger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hamburger would have to be completely raw.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pork and beef, hard salami contain the same fatty acids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Huge percentage of fat in it.
CASEY ANTHONY: It sucks for them because I have nothing to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. We learn tot mom wants to bring this trial to a screeching halt, claiming she`s too mentally ill -- street word, "crazy" -- to go on. That`s right, tot mom wants to stop the murder trial mid-stream because now she decides she`s crazy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she competent enough to stand trial?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Anthony is ill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Belvin Perry ordered three doctors -- two psychologists and a psychiatrist -- to examine her.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t care about what people have been saying about me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want anything going on crazy there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she supposed to be?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the wooded area and deceased.
CASEY ANTHONY: Disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you looking for in black plastic bags?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking for Caylee`s remains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We actually passed the bag with the skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The person that found it may have kicked it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I focused on the skull and the garbage bag that was next to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What in the world were you and Dominic Casey doing in that wooded area one month before Caylee was found?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking for Caylee`s remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were you looking for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The possible location of Caylee Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) serious?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courtroom day, and it has been a late day, the judge keeping the jury in the box and the witnesses on the stand up until the last 45 minutes before we go to air.
We are live, taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez. Jean, now we know why court came to a screeching halt on Saturday. Tot mom decides she doesn`t like the way the trial is going, so she`s crazy, that she`s too mentally incompetent to aid her attorneys, so she wants a do- over. It didn`t work, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": No, the judge ruled today she was competent. It was on Saturday, Nancy, that Casey Anthony, through her lawyers, secretly told the judge that she believes she is mentally ill, sick, not able to assist her lawyers. And that, in fact, would halt this trial. But two psychologists and a psychiatrist said, You`re wrong, Casey. You are competent. The trial proceeds.
GRACE: OK. Just when I think I`ve heard it all, then I hear this. Here we are, this many weeks into the trial. Look at tot mom in court. There`s the real tot mom. But then when Baez slides over, she realizes the camera`s on her, so she stops that horrific, evil-looking face she`s making. Uh-oh, camera`s watching! Watch this. Watch this. Watch. Whoopsie! Yes, she`s crazy like a fox!
Unleash the lawyers. Joining us, Paul Batista, defense attorney and author of "Death`s Witness," New York, Renee Rockwell, veteran defense attorney, Atlanta, Terence Lenamon, former attorney for Casey Anthony, argued against the death penalty for tot mom.
OK, Renee, did you see her in court? She got so angry at what was happening at the sidebar. Look at that face. Look at that. But then when Baez steps over and she realizes she`s on camera, Oh, yes, a completely different demeanor. That`s not crazy.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I don`t know if she`s crazy or if she can assist, but what you want to do is remind your client the way she dresses, the way she acts...
GRACE: Put her up!
ROCKWELL: There`s never a dull moment because...
GRACE: Put her up!
ROCKWELL: ... the jury is watching. And anything can...
GRACE: What are you even talking about? What do you mean, there`s never a dull moment?
ROCKWELL: Never a dull moment with that jury...
GRACE: Terence Lenamon...
ROCKWELL: ... every move she`s making.
GRACE: ... your former client -- yes, I don`t know what you`re talking about.
ROCKWELL: So she...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I`m talking about mental incompetency. Terence, you`ve been around the block many a time. You`re a death penalty expert. Mental incompetency means you are unable to assist your lawyer in the trial of your case. You`re so whacked out, you can`t help. You can`t take notes. You can`t listen. You can`t formulate ideas. You can`t tell him or her anything.
That is a major move in the middle of a trial -- past the middle of the trial, we`re in the defense case -- to suddenly say, Oh, yes, I`m incompetent. Let`s have a do-over.
TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Well, I think you`ve got to remember, Nancy, she`s not driving the bus, never has been driving the bus. The lawyers have a responsibility. They`re the ones driving the bus. This is a young, fragile girl who has been 40 days in a courtroom.
GRACE: She`s 25.
LENAMON: ... with -- young woman who`s now fighting for her life in the middle of the very stressful situation. And you know, it`s not unusual for something like this to happen in a situation like we had the other day.
GRACE: Put him up! You know what I think would be stressful? I can`t see Terence. There he is. You know what I think would be stressful, to you three expert defense attorneys? I think it`d be stressful to see three black garbage bags sitting beside you and see your mommy coming at you with some duct tape. That`s stressful!
All right, Batista, what do you make of it? I know Lenamon is saying Baez is driving the bus. I get it. But Baez apparently was making a U- turn in the middle of the interstate because the judge said, based on everything that three doctors, including psychiatrists, said, she`s not incompetent, she`s just fine. And she came back into court this morning, smiling and making jokes with the deputy sheriff that opened the door for her, sat down like she`s going to a lady`s high tea!
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This does not make any difference at all, Nancy. What she should be focusing on and what Baez is doing is they are winning this case. This is a sideshow with the competency issue.
GRACE: We are going out to the lines. We are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest. And the latest stunt in court is tot mom bringing the whole works to a skid, claiming she`s crazy. Now, there is legal insanity, which means you don`t know right from wrong at the time you commit the offense. There is incompetency, which means that sometime either before, during or at the time of the incident even, you are incompetent to aid your attorney.
To Cheryl in Iowa. Hi, Cheryl. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have two points. The first one is my husband and I were foster parents for a few years and we went to some classes for difficult kids. And one of the classes teach you is when a child has really bad abuse or neglect at a very young age, even as young as a newborn baby, a part of the brain can shut down for survival and then they have no compassion...
GRACE: And what`s your question, Cheryl?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... or know from right or wrong. It shows up on a brain scan. And I would -- I want to know if anybody has ever -- if a brain scan was ever done on her.
GRACE: Good question. Out to Dr. Helen Morrison, forensic psychiatrist, author of "My Life Among the Serial Killers." Dr. Morrison, what do you make of Cheryl`s suggestion?
DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Well, first of all, we can take all kinds of tests that we can imagine, but it`s not really going to show anything. I mean, what we`re talking about as far as competence is concerned is that -- does the person have a rational understanding of what`s going on? And can they understand the functional stuff that is going on in the courtroom, as well as the factual part of the presentation?
And to date, there is no test that we can do that will say a person`s brain has shut down to the point that they`ll make them not competent.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, also on the story. Ellie, all this went down on Saturday. Could you -- and Liz, if you can pull it up, let`s see tot mom`s grand entrance to court this morning, where she`s walking in smiling and giggling and making conversation with everyone. Just cover up Ellie and let`s see that.
Ellie, tell me about how this all went down and when we got the final ruling.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, this was actually on Saturday that this came up. As you know, court ended abruptly. They didn`t call any witnesses. We didn`t have court. We thought it was going to be a long day on Saturday, and no court at all.
Well, today, we found out this morning that this competency issue had come up. Now, Casey Anthony -- we were all commenting on how happy she looked. She was smiling. She was chatting with her attorneys. She appear to be laughing. And then right after that, we found out that she`d been evaluated by three -- two psychiatrists -- or rather two psychologists and one psychiatrist over the weekend. And the judge ruled her competent to stand trial.
GRACE: Take a look at tot mom in court. This is this morning, after she claims she`s mentally incompetent to stand trial. She is playing this courtroom like a fiddle!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Presence of a dead human body in the trunk of that car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t want to be in any of our family`s shoes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Odor that you analyzed from the carpet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent with human decomposition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) trying to capitalize at a point in time when their granddaughter is either missing or deceased.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re so (ph) wrong (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense filed a motion to determine competency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You seem very upset today.
CASEY ANTHONY: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) be the crazy over-protective mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) you say things, your brain`s thinking this, but your mouth has already said it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
CASEY ANTHONY: Like I said, the crazies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got into something totally, totally crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey, do you ever (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For your own good, please stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Emotions just take over sometimes.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: I was -- I was -- I was very hurt!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would do anything to protect her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you like to take a break?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based upon the reports that the court has reviewed, the court will find that the defendant is competent to continue to proceed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live at the Orange County courthouse, Orlando, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl. I can`t help but keep looking at this shot. Can you go back to that, Liz, if you don`t mind? This is tot mom. Oh! Oh! I wouldn`t want to be on the receiving end of that. Now, hold on. And then when she sees Baez has moved and the camera is watching her -- ouch!
We are taking your calls. To Natisha Lance, our producer, who`s also been in the courtroom along with our team all day today, why so late in court today, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, what Beth Karas (ph) was told from our sister network "In Session" is that Ann Finnell was questioning these two witnesses today, John Allen (ph), as well as Dominic Casey, who was...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on.
LANCE: ... a private investigator for...
GRACE: Natisha! Natisha!
LANCE: Yes?
GRACE: We need a flow chart for all these people. You got to identify who these people are for the viewer. Ann Finnell is the death penalty expert on the defense team. All right, go ahead.
LANCE: Yes. Death penalty expert on the defense team, just as you said, Ann Finnell. There were two witnesses that she needed to question. One of them was John Allen, who is a sergeant with the Orange County sheriff`s office, and the other one is Dominic Casey, who was at one time the private investigator for the Anthony family, as well as for Jose Baez.
She has a prior commitment for tomorrow, so they wanted to get these two witnesses out of...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait a minute!
LANCE: ... the way because...
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait! Wait! To Terence Lenamon. Terence, I assume that Florida works the same way as most other jurisdictions when it comes to conflicts. When one lawyer has two or more cases on various calendars, you take the most important case first. That`s the one you answer. For instance, a death penalty case would, say, rank higher than a shoplifting case. So how would Ann Finnell have another engagement that takes precedence over a death penalty murder trial?
LENAMON: Well, you know, Ann Finnell`s a very prominent Jacksonville death penalty lawyer, and she may have other conflict schedules. And it`s not unusual for a judge to accommodate her.
I`d like to say, though, it`s interesting that they put on a witness with her when she`s the second phase lawyer, and I would suspect that both those witnesses have something to do with lingering doubt, which may become a big issue in the second phase.
GRACE: You know what, Lenamon? That`s a good point. When he`s talking about the second phase, he means if there`s a murder one conviction and it goes to death penalty phase, the sentencing phase of this.
Let`s get right down to who these people are. Dominic Casey -- that`s a private eye, right, Drew Petrimoulx? I think I`ve got Drew Petrimoulx with me. Are you there, Drew?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: I am, Nancy. I was going to say that this private investigator actually at one point worked for the Baez law firm. And what`s key here is they were out actually in that wooded area a month before the remains were found, and the defense is going to try to say that they were basically in the exact spot where Caylee`s remains were later found and there was nothing there.
Of course, that goes to the defense theory that someone else dumped...
GRACE: Hold on, Drew!
PETRIMOULX: ... the remains while Casey...
GRACE: Liz -- yes. Let`s see that, Liz. Let`s blow it up in full so the viewers can see what`s happening. So Drew, let me get this straight -- Drew Petrimoulx, WDBO. Before the body`s found, a Baez PI is out poking around near where Caylee`s remains are found, right?
PETRIMOULX: That`s exactly right. And of course, the defense theory is that somebody else dumped the body. This is all a time when Casey was in jail during this time. So it`s going into the defense, trying to push this theory that someone else dumped the body in that woods right there. But one thing I will tell you...
GRACE: Wait a minute!
PETRIMOULX: ... is just looking at this...
GRACE: You kind of skipped over something, Drew. How did he get out there in first place? How did, number one, an Anthony family PI and a defense PI know where to look for Caylee`s body?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim because I`m just as much of a victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let the record reflect...
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve given you guys everything that I have and some.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That the defendant is...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not going to force it on you, but we`re going to do it, you know?
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, you never have. It`s always been of our own choice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competent.
CASEY ANTHONY: That would be pretty much on the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The court will find that the defendant is competent to continue to proceed.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m completely...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competent.
CASEY ANTHONY: We know their intentions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Competent. Both sides ready to proceed.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, that makes perfect sense.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, on trial for the alleged murder of her little girl, Caylee, Caylee`s remains a skeletonized body found about 15 houses right there from the Anthony home.
And what you were just seeing -- if we could go back to that -- an Anthony family private eye and a defense team private eye go out to the area near where Caylee`s remains found, before her body`s found. Now, just process that for a moment. How did they know to go there? They say a psychic sent them.
To Jean Casarez. I guess what they`re getting at is -- even though neither of these PIs in court could say they even could identify where Caylee was actually found, they`re basically saying, Well, since we didn`t see the body, then it must not have been there, so somebody else had to leave it there when tot mom was in jail, so she didn`t do it herself.
CASAREZ: Exactly right. And you see, they were there in November of 2008. One month later, her remains were found. So the whole point is in one month, the remains were put there and dispersed throughout that entire area by animals.
But Nancy, it was so confusing because where did he exactly go and how do you know that he missed the area where the remains were ultimately found?
GRACE: Well, Jean...
CASAREZ: No proof he was there.
GRACE: ... I know you were in court the whole time, listening to every single word. He basically said, I looked about 15 feet back and I saw water standing there, and you know, we didn`t go back that far. I didn`t get back in that water.
That`s where her body was! He never looked where Caylee`s body is. But now their theory is because these two PIs didn`t see Caylee`s remains, she must not have been there. So somebody else, AKA, Roy Kronk, the utility meter reader -- he must have thrown the body out there while tot mom was behind bars. That`s what they`re getting at, right, Jean?
CASAREZ: That`s exactly that they`re getting at. But Nancy, it all looks alike out there, that whole area. So where he went, you can`t say that he went where the remains were found.
GRACE: Now, they`re saying a psychic sent them to this spot. Liz, do we have sound from the psychic? Roll it, please.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GINETTE MATACIA LUCAS, PSYCHIC (via telephone): I had a dream about the information, got the final location, got up at 3:00 in the morning and called him and left him a message. And I said, Call me right away. I`ve got it, and I want you to check it out immediately.
GRACE: What was the dream, Ms. Lucas?
LUCAS: That she was in a plastic bag. I said there might be two plastic bags, a white one and a dark brown black -- not a brown but a...
GRACE: OK...
LUCAS: ... black one and then a dark green one. And I said, Don`t -- I said, You`re not looking for a little person sitting on the curb. You`re looking for garbage, what looks like garbage.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Her name`s Casey Anthony, C-A-S-E-Y.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standing trial for her life.
CASEY ANTHONY: Watch the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) news. Nobody in my own family is on my side!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a tragic accident that happened to some very disturbed people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s not right here.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s not right with this girl.
CINDY ANTHONY: Have you spoken to a psychologist or psychiatrist yet?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Every single day.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is she competent enough to stand trial?
CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: You would think that this would have grown old by now.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey`s state of mind was in question.
CASEY ANTHONY: Baloney.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This salami pack.
CASEY ANTHONY: Eating baloney and cheese on occasion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For two years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is crazy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She pretended she had a job and pretended she had a nanny.
CINDY ANTHONY: Is not a murderer.
PERRY: Some things never change.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that normal? It`s insane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you aware that there was no meat in that package?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. There would only be residues.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Health experts, two psychologists and a psychiatrist examine Casey Anthony.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Something is just not right about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would agree that a little residue in the bottom of this package is not going to be enough to create an odor --
CINDY ANTHONY: Stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That will permeate an entire trunk.
CINDY ANTHONY: That smell was terrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`d be unlikely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where can you find Chloroform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s pretty much everywhere.
PERRY: The court will find that the defendant --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was satisfied that she understood the charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could be a part in her defense.
PERRY: -- is competent to continue to proceed.
GINETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC, INVOLVED IN SEARCH FOR CAYLEE: Eventually one day I picked up the information and I called Dominick right away, about 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning on the 15th and I said I have your -- what I call the fast and final.
I told him to go over to the area where an abandoned house was. I told him to -- when you leave the Anthony house, come out the front, pretend you`re coming out the front door, take a right and go to the end of the street. And go to where the abandoned house is. And --
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Right.
LUCAS: And I said --
GRACE: And were you giving specific directions while you`re on the phone with him?
:LUCAS: Absolutely. We`re on the phone off and on for a while.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courthouse day. And it has been quite a day. Court recessing in just the last hour.
Judge Belvin Perry working that defense team and the state as it conducts cross exams. The jury in the box, the witnesses on the stand, the testimony flowing, right up until we go to air.
This after Saturday court was canceled. And that was set to be a long day, too. Judge Belvin Perry taking no prisoners, forcing this trial forward, as he should. But the skids were put on by tot mom herself as she decides she`s crazy and wants a do-over. Translation? Wants to throw out the jury and start from scratch, claiming she`s too mentally ill to aid her attorneys in her own defense.
We are taking your calls, out to -- is it Tamara in Texas?
TAMARA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Yes.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
TAMARA: Well, first of all, I have a comment that I can understand why she wanted to claim herself mentally incompetent or crazy. I think she sees the handwriting on the wall that she`s going down. And my question is, why does -- why do people try to portray her as a good mother?
Everyone knows that the child was fed and clothed and taken care of by the grandparents, who my heart really goes out to.
GRACE: You know let`s throw that to Terrence Lenamon. He`s the former attorney for tot mom Casey Anthony. He argued against the death penalty for tot mom.
Why is she portrayed as such a good mom when we -- when you go back and you look at the facts, it`s Cindy Anthony that was working to support Caylee. It was Cindy that paid for all the doctors` visits, the hospital stay, fixed up her room, bought all her clothes, babysat all the time.
Why is -- why is that so often ignored that Cindy was really the surrogate mother?
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY, ARGUED AGAINST DEATH PENALTY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I think what the situation here is, is that you need to understand that the true story of what was going on. Like many, many young mothers, she loved her child.
And like many, many young mothers it`s not unusual for a grandmother to take over the responsibility. So I think that, you know, you have to look at the whole picture, not just little pieces. And what we`re looking at --
GRACE: Well, I`m not really hearing anything from you that negates the premise I set forth.
Tot mom sat on her parents` sofa for years eating chips while her mother and father went out and made a living to support her child. She loved her daughter.
How -- why do you say that, what did she do besides play with her a couple of times on camera? Explain to me what she did. She never worked to support her child.
Let me tell you something, Terrence, your mother raised you, I`m sure, when I get tired, I don`t feel like working. You know what I got up here? The twins` college fund. I want them to be able to be what they want to be. I`m not laying on the sofa eating chips letting somebody else support my children.
LENAMON: I disagree with you. I think there is going to be -- especially if we get into a penalty phase, there is going to be a true picture painted of her completely. Not what you`re portraying in the press and with some of your --
GRACE: Well, you tell me. Correct me.
LENAMON: I`m telling you, I think that she loved her child. And she was a young mother who got pregnant. And I think it was an unwanted pregnancy. And I think there`s a lot of things that are going to be developed in the penalty phase, if we get that far, if we get past the constitutional issue of the death penalty.
GRACE: She was 22. Twenty-two when Caylee died.
LENAMON: I understand that.
GRACE: That`s not so young. That`s a grown woman. She`s 22.
LENAMON: I disagree. I think she was young. I think there was some significant trauma in her childhood. I think there was mental illness. And I think that what`s been exploited is a short period of time where she was actively suffering from mental illness during the period of time the child disappeared and ultimately died.
GRACE: Well, Terrence, I have with great, great interest. Read one of the many -- let me say brilliant legal memos that you wrote in which you urged the state not to seek the death penalty in this case. And you said if there had been an accident such as, for instance, overmedicating the child, that it was, in fact, an accident. Did you not?
LENAMON: When I did the memorandum, I pointed out the possibilities of why the death penalty shouldn`t be sought. And as to the specifics of what --
GRACE: Overmedicating.
LENAMON: Overmedicating, absolutely. Absolutely.
GRACE: To Dr. Vincent Dimaio --
LENAMON: This is not a death case.
GRACE: Former chief medical examiner, Bear County, forensic pathologist, joining us out of San Antonio.
Dr. Vincent Dimaio, thank you for being with us. Dr. Dimaio --
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, M.D., FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BEXAR COUNTY, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Thank you for inviting me.
GRACE: Yes, sir. When you give your child a sedative to the point where it kills them, that`s typically treated as a murder. In your experience, when children have been medicated to the point, medicated to the point of death -- you know, when you say medication, Doctor, you think of maybe Benadryl or Dimetapp, you don`t think of chloroform, the deadly knockout drug.
DIMAIO: That`s right. You don`t use chloroform and you don`t put tape across the nose and mouth and help them to go to sleep. You really shouldn`t even medicate them to any significant degree, maybe a little Benadryl, at most.
GRACE: Dr. Dimaio, you have, for us, studied this case. You`ve studied the way the body, little Caylee`s body was found, chewed on by animals, strewn around in basically a dump, several feet in water.
Is there any way under the sun that this could not be a murder?
DIMAIO: No. This is obvious murder. I mean, the medical examiner was absolutely correct when she ruled this a homicide. And the most likely mechanism of death in cases like this is asphyxia by smothering, duct tape, or sometimes an overdose of drugs. This is a murder. It is a simple case.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Helen Morrison, forensic psychologist.
Doctor, I was at a jumpy house just a couple of hours ago with the twins. And John David jumped on my back and Lucy wrapped around my legs, was looking up at me, and I think we`ve gotten too far off field of all of our legal banter and I think we`re forgetting about a 2-year-old little girl who trusts the world is going to take care of her.
DR. HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Right.
GRACE: And we`re getting very far away from that little girl whose remains were found, gnawed on, chewed by animals, scattered by animals and floating in water with sediment in her skull.
How has she gotten so dehumanized in that courtroom? Nobody even talks about Caylee.
MORRISON: Well, because we`re looking at the legal part, we`re not looking at the personal part. I mean this is a legal proceeding. And nobody is about ready to make it personal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were you looking for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The possible location of Caylee Marie Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To this day, you don`t know exactly where any other part of her skeleton was recovered, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I never saw any of it, no, ma`am.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: The legal issue has arisen unrelated to the issue that we talked about.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can feel it. It is coming. It is getting closer. Because I`m not sitting here (EXPLETIVE DELETED) crying every two seconds.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Was also in agreement with my sister.
CINDY ANTHONY: I need to be arrested, my daughter.
CASEY ANTHONY: What is going on?
L. ANTHONY: Casey was an unfit mother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The skull, that`s the skull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seemed to be embedded in the vines.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lovely breakfast conversation.
CASEY ANTHONY: I can`t even swallow right now, it hurts.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What died?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She collapsed into the chair. Hyperventilating.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s sickening. Stop it.
PERRY: Going to recess for the day. It`s concerning her illness.
CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim. I have no one to comfort me.
PERRY: To be examined by three psychologists to determine her competency to proceed.
CASEY ANTHONY: The media completely misconstrued everything that I said.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is there a strategy in asking for this kind of motion?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a lie. A lie. It was a lie.
L. ANTHONY: I knew it was a lie.
PERRY: The court will find that the defendant is competent to continue to proceed.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. We are live at the Orange County, Orlando courthouse, bringing you latest at the end of the courtroom day. And what a day it has been in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony, on trial for murder one in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
I want to go out to Glen Jackson, Dr. Glen Jackson, doctor of forensic chemistry, Ohio University.
Dr. Jackson, thank you for being with us. In a very odd move today, the defense claimed that the decomposing human body fluids found in tot mom`s car trunk could have actually been cheese and salami.
You know, I`m just a trial lawyer, Doctor, please explain how that could be.
GLEN JACKSON, PH.D., DIRECTOR OF THE FORENSIC CHEMISTRY PROGRAM, OHIO UNIVERSITY: Well, when pretty much anything that contains protein or fat degrades, it can be pretty stinky. And to the average person, it can smell pretty similar, whether as a human remain or a deer, or roadkill, or if it`s cheese or salami. It`s difficult to tell the difference between them.
GRACE: Really? Because I`ve smelled food that`s gone bad and I never thought it smelled like a dead body, which I have also smelled as a former prosecutor.
So, Dr. Jackson, you`re telling me that a consumer amount of cheese or salami that had gone bad can smell like a human, rotting body?
JACKSON: Well, let me ask you this, when your food was going bad, did you then take it and put it in the trunk of the car and see if it got worse? Or did you throw it out before it really got stinky?
GRACE: I threw it out.
JACKSON: OK.
GRACE: And could you answer my question about whether cheese, rotten cheese, smells like a decomposing human body?
JACKSON: Like I said, to the lay person, it probably does.
GRACE: To you, does it?
JACKSON: We can do very specific chemical tests and see exactly what chemicals are present. And unfortunately this area of research is quite cutting edge and we really haven`t built consensus in the community as to what constitutes a human decaying human remain versus what constitutes decaying something else.
GRACE: Dr. Jackson, have you actually smelled a decomposing human body?
JACKSON: No.
GRACE: OK. To Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, president, AJS Consulting.
Andrew, come on. Mentally incompetent? Crazy? Are they kidding?
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Well, the way I see it is it`s a very good deception, it`s a very good ploy based on what I`ve been seeing over the course of the last several days. And it`s just the defense`s ability and desire to deflect from her and her very real guilt and confuse the jury.
And that`s all it takes is to create that reasonable doubt. And that`s exactly what the defense is doing. And they may be doing an OK job, but in the final analysis, I think the jury is going to find her guilty of this.
GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session", the defense went so far as to get cheese wrappers and let the jury smell them?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes. And that`s the thing, Nancy. When you look in the trash bag, there wasn`t any food in there. There were wrappers of food. So some were passed around to the jury, some of them smelled it. And some jurors took out hand sanitizer to wash their hands after they handled it.
GRACE: Jean, do you think the defense has now opened the door for the state to pass around those canisters of the air out of that trunk? Let me tell you, it`s not going to smell like rotten cheese.
CASAREZ: Right. It was Jeff -- it was Jeff Ashton, that actually prosecutor that got to pass it around for the jury to look at it. They, on their own volition, took it up to their noses to smell.
GRACE: You`re right. You`re right. So that`s not going to work.
You know, Jean Casarez, how did they manage to suggest that a cheese wrapper or salami wrapper could smell like a rotting human body?
CASAREZ: The way it all happened is that on cross examination the witness agreed that decomposition was taking place in that car, but he said decomposition of food and so then food, you want to see food, let`s look at the food. And there was no food. It`s just those wrappers.
GRACE: So none of these wrappers were cleaned by the state or by police. These are exactly as they were found, right?
CASAREZ: Exactly as they were found. According to the prosecution, defense will say that maybe somehow or other something decomposed so you don`t have it anymore.
GRACE: OK. Unleash the lawyers, Terrence Lenamon, former lawyer for tot mom, argued against the death penalty. Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta. Paul Batista, defense attorney, New York.
All right, Renee Rockwell, what do you make of the Anthony family PI, private investigator, and the Baez defense team investigator going out to the scene near where Caylee`s body was found before the body was found? How did they know to go there?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, they`re not going to tell you all their secrets. And what they`re trying to do is say --
GRACE: Yes, I know that. I`m asking you. How else could they know?
ROCKWELL: What they`re trying to do is say that they were at the exact spot that the child should have been and the -- the body was not there. And Caylee -- Casey coming out --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: We`ve already gone over that, Renee. We`ve already talked about that.
ROCKWELL: Well, so? One little thing, Nancy --
GRACE: I`m asking you, how else could they know where the body was unless tot mom told them?
ROCKWELL: She didn`t have to tell them. And I could promise you any conversation that they had with the family not with the lawyer is already on tape. But one drop of doubt with one juror saves her life, Nancy. And that`s why they`ve gone --
GRACE: OK. I`m just going to have to repeat this question. What are you talking about? I asked you how they could have known where the -- I`m going to throw it to Batista.
Paul, how could the PI know where the body, the general area where the body was?
PAUL BATISTA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "DEATH`S WITNESS": The testimony, Nancy, is that the psychic told them.
GRACE: OK. You`re going to with psych.
BATISTA: I understand what you`re trying to do. I understand what you`re trying to do. What we`re missing, Nancy, let`s talk about the smell. When a case is built by the prosecution on smell and odors, it stinks.
GRACE: OK. What about it, Terrence Lenamon? How did they know the general area to look for the body?
LENAMON: I really can`t discuss that. Sorry, Nancy. And I was involved with the case back then.
GRACE: Terrence Lenamon -- put him back up.
Terrence, you`ve tried a lot of cases. How else could the private investigator for the defense know where to look for the body before the body was found?
LENAMON: I think that they testified what happened. That`s the extent of my knowledge about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take a deep breath.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have an opinion whether these --
CINDY ANTHONY: And it`s cruel for you to sit there and make me watch it again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fatty acids are unique to human decomposition.
CINDY ANTHONY: You asked me if I thought it was --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are back live at the courthouse taking your calls.
Out to Ann in South Carolina. Hi, Ann. What`s your question?
ANN, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: My question is, back when this early on when it first started, Casey was in jail, George and Cindy, I believe, were both there talking to her. George was begging her. Begging her.
I mean he was so (INAUDIBLE) and so heartbroken. Please tell us what you know so we can get Caylee. The thing that was going to hiding make the police could get her in a matter of hours. The whole family would give up everything and go into hiding with this child.
Just tell them what she knew. How can anybody watch that man begging his daughter for information about this precious child ever believe that he knew she wasn`t alive? That is -- these experts, they have no expertise. This is the craziest thing I have ever seen. And I admire you.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Ann in South Carolina, number one, thank you, and number two, you`re preaching to the choir. And not only that, he spent money out of his pocket, thousands to conduct those searches, get that giant billboard and drive it thousands of miles behind his vehicle for people to see Caylee`s face and the tip line.
Ann in South Carolina, you need to be making those closing arguments for the state.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Adam Galvez, 21, Salt Lake City, Utah, killed Iraq. Awarded two Purple Hearts, Navy and Marine Corps Commendation medals, Combat Action Ribbon.
A Boy Scout, loved baseball, skateboarding, snowboarding, racing cars. His Acura Integra, dream car Toyota Supra. Remembered as the life of the party with a loving heart. A street in his hometown named after him. Leaves behind parents, Tony and Amy, sister, Sarah, brother, Travis.
Adam Galvez, America hero.
Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us and a special good night to Georgia in Pennsylvania and Texas friends, Brenda, Eva, Mira, Richelle and Cameron.
Now, Cameron, you`re a nice looking young man. And look at the beautiful little lady there.
And a special hello to one of our biggest friends. Tiny crime fighter baby James. Here he`s sending us a wink while watching our show. He loves our show but he loves his toys and his parents, Matthew and Stephanie and Aunt Stacy even more.
See, there is good in the world.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night. We will be live at the Orange County courthouse in our own way seeking justice for Caylee.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
