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Dr. Drew
Casey Anthony`s Father Grilled on Stand
Aired June 29, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST (voice-over): George and Jose, head to head.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: You`re trying to take this joy of my life away from me. How dare you, sir?
POLITAN: The gun, the pool, the suicide note. And this --
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: -- sex with a child under the age of 12.
ANTHONY: I never would do anything like that.
BAEZ: You would never admit to it, would you, sir?
POLITAN: You won`t believe what came next.
And Cindy back to the stand as the defense tries to prove Lee molested Casey. But did it backfire on Baez?
Plus, Casey breaks her silence. But will she take the stand? What did she say?
All of that and more, straight ahead on Dr. Drew.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
POLITAN: Good evening. I`m Vinnie Politan, sitting in for Dr. Drew, live in Orlando, Florida.
A pivotal day in the Casey Anthony trial. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony spoke in court just a few minutes ago. We got to hear her speak.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the stand, her father George.
BAEZ: Late January of 2009, you attempted to commit suicide.
ANTHONY: Yes, sir, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roy Kronk, the meter reader who found little Caylee`s remains, back on the stand.
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And you`re telling me now that you completely deny making a phone call to your son at all in November?
ROY KRONK, FMR. METER READER: That phone call never happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told me he knew where the remains were.
KRONK: I called him on December 11th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was in November of 2008.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
POLITAN: Tonight, the defense is expected to rest its case tomorrow. And for the first time in this trial, Casey Anthony breaks her silence and speaks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: Ms. Anthony, do you want to answer that question now or do you want to wait until Mr. Baez and Mr. Mason or Ms. Sims arrive?
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: I can answer that now.
PERRY: OK.
C. ANTHONY: I agree with Ms. Finnell.
PERRY: Thank you, ma`am.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: There is a question. What will this accused child killer say if she insists on testifying?
But first, George Anthony has a meltdown on the stand, denying he sexually abused his daughter, and opening up for the very first time about his dark suicide attempt.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I called my family, my sisters, my mother and father, basically to tell them goodbye, even though I didn`t say that. I just told them not to worry. I wanted to -- I needed at that time to go and be with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you expressed that in the note?
G. ANTHONY: Yes, I did, because I believe I failed her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Now, there was nothing in that suicide note that suggested Caylee drowned in a swimming pool. Listen to this. Now, you tell me if you think there`s even a chance that this man was involved in covering up his granddaughter`s death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you held out the hope that Caylee would be found alive?
G. ANTHONY: Absolutely, every day from July 15th until the day we were told it was Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In January of 2009, you went -- I`ll give you a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh and host if "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smyth, are with me here, live in Orlando.
What an incredible day today.
You know, we`ve seen incredible days in this trial, but today, Ryan, when you talk about George Anthony getting up there, being accused of all these things, and then seeing his reaction, seeing him break down, I saw a grandfather up there. A grandfather`s heart is broken. I didn`t see a guy who looked like he was covering up some accident for his daughter.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: I didn`t see it either. You know what I saw? I saw a human being on that stand.
You saw a man who lost his granddaughter, who has been through it in this case. At every stage in this case the defense has been pointing at George Anthony. He`s had so much pressure on him, and you saw him break down.
And you what I liked, Vinnie? I think a lot of people would say, well, maybe he was defensive. He said all these things. He and Jose Baez got into it.
What I saw was a real person. You know, you`re going to get angry at people. You`re going to argue back and forth. You`re going to break down a little bit. He wasn`t afraid to show that emotion, and he came off so powerfully and so credibly.
POLITAN: "Credibly" is the keyword here, because if they believe that he is not a credible person, that he`s someone who could sexually abuse his daughter and someone who could cover up this accidental drowning that the defense is talking about -- they have got no evidence of it.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Isn`t it ironic that the sole person who pointed the finger at him as the villain in this case is the very person who highlighted his goodness for the jury. My law students are going to watch this cross-examination, and I`m going to come in after they watch it and I`m going to tell them three words: don`t do that. That`s it.
POLITAN: It was powerful.
Now, there was another part of his testimony where he talked about his suicide attempt. And we got to hear some details today, Ryan. And it can be interpreted a couple different ways.
You know, why would this man at that point want to commit suicide? This is in January of 2009, a little bit more than a month after Caylee`s remains are discovered and he knows that his granddaughter is dead, and before that memorial. One interpretations could be it`s guilt.
SMITH: Yes, and that`s what the defense tried to point out today. They tried to say this was guilt, that George Anthony was feeling the pressure, the guilt of everything that happened, the cover-up of Caylee`s accidental death, and that`s why he attempted suicide.
But that fell flat. It was like they were looking for a homerun and they completely struck out, because George Anthony made the point, and I thought this was so important. At one point he was breaking down and he said, "I failed her. I failed Caylee." At another point he said, I committed suicide because I just felt like it was time for me to be with Caylee.
This is a man who was struggling with this death. Struggling. And he just couldn`t take it.
That`s the impression that you got on the stand. Not guilt, but sorrow.
POLITAN: It`s a man who is tormented. It`s a m man whose heart is broken. And if this jury believes his story, they only have one person to blame for this man`s torment and the torture of Cindy Anthony. It all comes back to Casey.
Everything that she did impacted her family, and this jury got to see it play out on the witness stand right in front of their own eyes, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Without question. We all feel the same way.
But as I`m sitting there watching this, I`m thinking, all right, I`m not on this jury, we`re not on this jury. Is it going to resonate with them the same way it resonated with us?
POLITAN: How could it not?
EIGLARSH: I agree with you.
POLITAN: How could it not?
EIGLARSH: Then I take it to the next level. All right. So you take George out of the equation. He didn`t do this. Now it`s her.
The question of the day, and I have been asking everybody this, OK, so tell me exactly how this happened. The state still has to prove first- degree murder.
POLITAN: Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Reasonable Doubt right here.
EIGLARSH: Hold on. Hold on.
POLITAN: Mr. Reasonable Doubt.
EIGLARSH: George was compelling today. But now I want one person.
I asked Judge Alex, I asked every expert today, tell me exactly. Put me there with words. Nobody can.
Is that reasonable doubt? I`m throwing that out there. Don`t kill the messenger. That`s what this is about, Vinnie.
POLITAN: Well, the answer may lie with the Duct tape, and the Duct tape came up in cross-examination -- not cross-examination. I keep thinking it`s cross-examination, but it`s direct.
EIGLARSH: Where was the Duct tape?
POLITAN: There was some Duct tape on the gas can, and Jose Baez brought that up to George Anthony
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: The day that my daughter gave me back these gas cans, on the 24th, that wasn`t an alleged argument, it occurred. But when she put those down on the ground forcibly, and said -- here were my exact words -- were "Here`s my (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gas cans."
Did I put a piece of tape or something on it maybe eventually? Yes, I did, because anything that is volatile as gasoline, when it has fumes or something in it, can be a problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: And that Duct tape was on that gas can. And Jose Baez told everyone at the beginning of this case, follow the Duct tape.
But where does the Duct tape take us today? Is it to George Anthony on the stand?
SMITH: Yes, I think the Duct tape was supposed to take us to George Anthony having access to this Duct tape. That`s why you see it on the gas cans. And maybe he used it somehow on Caylee.
But I don`t see that. First of all, I don`t even know why that`s necessary, because there was Duct tape in the house. But now you`re trying to Duct tape on the cans and trying to link that to George. I don`t see it.
Here`s the thing I think about first-degree murder. I do agree with you, Mark. It`s hard to prove that Casey planned any of this.
There`s the aggravated child abuse. That becomes hard to prove as well when you look at felony murder.
But I wonder if this jury steps out of that box and says, you know what? I don`t like her. I don`t like the situation. She is stone-faced on the stand, unemotional the whole time, when George is testifying. And jurors at times in that courtroom are looking at her.
POLITAN: And look at the circumstances surrounding where the remains are found, the Duct tape. It`s attached to the hair. It`s in a place where it could cover her face very easily.
What is the innocent explanation for it?
EIGLARSH: Do not get me wrong, both factually and legally there is more than enough to find her guilty of whatever the hell they choose.
POLITAN: Right.
EIGLARSH: I`m just asking both legally at this point and at the appellate court, what specifically? Now, chloroform searches. OK. All right if they believe that she did that. Got it.
The tape, though, that`s the murder weapon. And Kronk`s testimony for me was critical. He admitted that the stuff shook around in the bag, it fell out, he`s poking it.
POLITAN: It`s still connected. It`s still connected and intertwined with that hair. And I saw the photograph on the ground.
EIGLARSH: I`m with you.
POLITAN: It`s like a case where you don`t have a body, you can still prove murder, Mark. You know that.
EIGLARSH: I know that.
POLITAN: You know that.
EIGLARSH: You know that.
POLITAN: All right.
Coming up, folks, George Anthony is grilled on the stand about his jailhouse conversations with his daughter Casey. They`re all caught on videotape. What, if anything, do they reveal?
You`re watching DR. DREW, live from Orlando.
I`m Vinnie Politan.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: There`s a lot of love in your heart for all of us, for your daughter. You can see that. That`s evident in the house. You know?
I miss you, sweetie.
C. ANTHONY: I miss you too, dad.
G. ANTHONY: I miss you. I miss your hug.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: The defense attacks George Anthony, asking why he was so nice to his daughter Casey in jailhouse conversations like the one you just heard, but while at the same time, well, he`s talking to police, telling them he smelled a dead body in her car.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car, and the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world. And I`ve smelled that odor before. It smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
G. ANTHONY: I got a sick feeling for a second, because the car, that was all closed up. And being from me to you away from it, and you can smell an odor, you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: George defended himself saying he was a grieving grandfather, but was also worried about his daughter`s mental state behind bars.
Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: As you have testified, on the 24th you`re saying negative things about your daughter. And when you were on the video talking to her, you`re saying nice things.
G. ANTHONY: Again, sir, I was cooperating with law enforcement on one day, giving them information to help assist finding my granddaughter, wherever she was at. The next day, going in and seeing my daughter, yes, I was trying to keep her upbeat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh still with us. And Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of HLN`s "ISSUES" joins us.
Great to see you, Jane.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Great to be here.
POLITAN: Thanks so much for staying here at the site.
All right. Let`s -- I think of George Anthony, I think of three different George Anthonys. There`s George Anthony the grandfather, the victim; George Anthony the father of the woman who`s facing the death; and then there`s George Anthony the cop, the former cop.
And I see him in different situations playing those different roles, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely. I think he functioned much as Dr. G did, bringing this entire case back to planet Earth.
The jurors` heads are spinning. Complex forensics -- oh, my gosh, what does it all mean?
He brings it back. Hey, it smelled like death. I can close my eyes and smell it. I know what human decomposition smells like.
They badgered him into providing that homerun for the prosecution. At times I even forgot that this was the defense case and I thought we were in the prosecution case.
POLITAN: Oh, absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was a shocker. And I think one of the problems that the defense has is that they really don`t have proof for anything that they`re claiming. So they are trying to use innuendo and insinuation and suggestion to cleverly get in these points, knowing that the prosecution is going to object. But what happened is it backfired on them because it opened the door to a whole bunch of things coming in like this gun issue, this issue of a gun.
Now, this guy, George, supposedly discovered the drowned child and covered it up. So then why did he go out and buy a gun? So he could confront all the people who might have taken little Caylee. It doesn`t make sense. We didn`t really know about that until the defense brought that in today.
POLITAN: Every time they open the door, Jeff Ashton comes steamrolling through, Mark.
EIGLARSH: Listen, I want to be nice about Jose Baez. I don`t feel good when I criticize him. The most I can say is that -- or the best thing I can say is he`s doing the best that he can at his level of awareness.
POLITAN: I`ll tell you what, he is doing better than I would have done three years into practice of law. But three years into practice of law, I wouldn`t have been trying this case.
EIGLARSH: That`s correct. And when you have a guy on the ropes yesterday -- I mean, no one in America -- well, strike that. There are some people, maybe Cindy Anthony, who believe that maybe he didn`t have an affair.
POLITAN: Sure.
EIGLARSH: But clearly, as we wonder, when he texts and when he leaves letters that he`s there to comfort her, you then throw in -- if you`re alleging that he is having this sexual molestation, he`s having -- that`s when you nail him, right there. And you just throw out the question.
Jose doesn`t know that. He just doesn`t know. It`s an art form. He just doesn`t know.
POLITAN: And they didn`t do that.
Jane, how does this jury end up perceiving George Anthony? Do they see him for the reason he`s in the courtroom all the time, as a victim, there for Caylee, as a grieving grandfather? Or do they see him as someone who is saving his own hide? Because that`s the choice they have to make, because that`s the choice that Jose Baez gave them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I don`t think you beat up on a grieving grandfather. So I think that what happened in court today seemed ugly and it seemed mean. And that`s what I don`t think you want to come across to a jury.
And I have to say that I think George Anthony had not just a breakdown today emotionally, but he had a breakthrough, because this family I think really suffers from co-dependency, where they can`t really figure out where their problems end and Casey`s begins, and they try to save her over and over again. And I think, finally, when you accuse somebody of molestation, that`s when they ultimately just draw the line.
And when he brought back that molestation again, I think George was like, enough is enough. It`s her or me. And I`m choosing me. I`m standing up for myself.
And it was kind of a breakthrough, very late in the game, but I saw something different in George that I have never seen before.
(CROSSTALK)
EIGLARSH: We all did.
POLITAN: Part of the breakthrough here today is that George Anthony got to get in front of this jury the fact that he believes his daughter is responsible for the death of Caylee. That, I thought, was a huge moment, because everyone`s wondering, what is he thinking? Does he really believe she`s a killer or -- you know?
EIGLARSH: I have got to say something again.
POLITAN: It came out in front of the jury.
EIGLARSH: It did, but that should never happen. That is textbook non-admissible evidence. You can never ask any witness about how they feel about the ultimate question. That`s for a jury.
POLITAN: That`s the jury`s job. That`s for the jury.
EIGLARSH: But once again, Jose Baez -- and again, I wish him well. He might be a wonderful person, but he brought that out.
POLITAN: Absolutely.
All right. Coming up, folks, Casey Anthony speaks. And George Anthony hatches a plan to threaten Casey`s friends and get answers.
I`m Vinnie Politan, in for Dr. Drew, live in Orlando, Florida. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: No, sir, I need to get through this. I need to have something inside of me get through this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you obtain the firearm?
G. ANTHONY: Two reasons. Number one, I wanted to go get answers that I believed I could get from individuals that I felt in my mind at the time was responsible for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were going to force them at gunpoint to tell you information that you thought they had about what happened to Caylee based on what your daughter had told you?
G. ANTHONY: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: George Anthony admits he was so desperate for answers, he bought a gun and planned to use it to get information from Casey`s friends about where Caylee was.
The host of "ISSUES" on HLN, Jane Velez-Mitchell, back with us, along with criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh.
And Jane, you brought this up as being very compelling to you, the fact that he bought this gun, was trying to get answers. It tells a huge story. I mean, Jose Baez is saying it was a drowning, it was a cover-up of an accident.
I still don`t understand the cover-up of an accident, why you even need to do that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. And what happened during that cover-up? That has never been explained.
He is holding the child, according to Jose Baez in the opening statement, and then he`s yelling at Casey, "Look what you`ve done!" And then cut to what? We don`t have act two.
All we have is act one and act three. And so you do have to tell a coherent story in a defense, even if it has -- supposedly not to prove anything. But if you want to win your case, a coherent story would certainly help.
POLITAN: Well, here is the question that everyone has been tweeting me, is "Ineffective assistance of counsel," Mark Eiglarsh. He tells this story to this jury and promises some things, and delivers none of it.
EIGLARSH: I have gotten the same Twitterers and Facebookers who are saying we`re doing a dress rehearsal because we`re coming back. And what I say to that is, ineffective assistance of counsel is a very, very high, monumental standard. There have been attorneys who have fallen asleep, literally, in trial, and the appellate court says, well, yes, they shouldn`t have done that, but they didn`t fall asleep during the critical parts of the trial.
POLITAN: I`ll tell you what though, if they fall asleep in this courthouse behind us, the bailiff is going to tap them on the shoulder and kick them out of the courtroom.
EIGLARSH: Oh, yes. I learned the hard way.
POLITAN: In Judge Perry`s courtroom, you`re out of there.
EIGLARSH: I loved staying in my room today and not going to court, because I could yell at the screen. You can`t do that when you`re in court.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you know what I think, Vinnie? I think the fundamental question, they say never ask a question you don`t already know the answer to. It`s the basic, basic rule of lawyering. And it seems like a lot of questions were asked today that he didn`t know what the heck was going to come out of George`s mouth.
POLITAN: So, bottom line to this, does Jose Baez come off -- does he hurt his own credibility by beating up on George Anthony today?
EIGLARSH: Yes. What`s the second question? I mean, that`s it. He hurts his credibility, he hurt his case, he hurt his client. He hurt the criminal justice system.
I know it`s a little melodramatic, but he shouldn`t do the things that he was doing. He just shouldn`t. Hey, it`s nothing personal.
POLITAN: I mean, this jury`s head has to be spinning at this point about what they`re thinking.
We`re going to talk about it coming up on the program, focusing in on what this jury may be thinking.
But Jane, what are you thinking? I mean, do you have any --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the one thing I would say is never predict how a jury is going to react. Remember during the Jackson trial, everybody thought he was going to be convicted, and he was acquitted on everything and everybody`s jaw dropped. So never, never assume that we know what`s going on in their minds.
POLITAN: How about in your mind though?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In my mind, I`d say that a lot of the confusion actually got eliminated today by some of George`s comments and his answers, because look at the forensics. Oh, all the days of us debating the forensics, and George, in one felt swoop, smells like a dead body in the car.
POLITAN: All right.
We`ve got much more straight ahead. Don`t go anywhere.
I`m Vinnie Politan, sitting in tonight for Dr. Drew, live in Orlando.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN (voice-over): Cindy Anthony on the stand again today. This time, answering questions about her son, Lee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going into Casey`s room at night.
POLITAN: And remember these stunning claims from day one?
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms.
Look what you`ve done!
You will go to jail for child neglect.
POLITAN: Well, it`s day 31. Casey`s defense team is winding down, and where is the proof? Did Baez make promises he just can`t keep? Will they put Casey on the stand in a last ditch effort? Were her words today a preview of how she might perform?
VOICE OF CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN (on-camera): Cindy Anthony`s gut wrenching sobs on the stand as she listened to the 911 call she made to report Caylee missing. Today, it was her husband, George, who broke down.
I`m Vinnie Politan filling in for Dr. Drew live in Orlando. And back with criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh. Joining us now is Lisa Bloom. She`s an attorney and best-selling author of "Think and Look." Look what the wind blew into town tonight. There`s "Think." Lisa Bloom`s book. Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter, that bailed Casey out of jail in 2008.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: I didn`t approve of this.
(LAUGHTER)
POLITAN: Look what we`ve done, folks. We have put them and sat them next to one another.
PADILLA: There you go.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can tell you anything.
PADILLA: Put it on. There you go.
EIGLARSH: I was in the house for five minutes. I can tell you everything. Conspiracy.
POLITAN: Is that where the answers come from? You put the magic hat, it`s got all the answers to this case.
EIGLARSH: That`s all right.
(LAUGHTER)
POLITAN: You don`t want to mess up Mark`s hair now. Leonard, thanks so much for joining us tonight. Lisa, great to see you as well.
LISA BLOOM, ATTORNEY AND AUTHOR: You too, Vinnie.
POLITAN: Now, Cindy Anthony took the stand again today and said that this about an alleged incident involving her son, Lee, and her daughter, Casey. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mrs. Anthony, do you recall several years back when there were -- there was an incident involving your son, Lee, going into Casey`s room at night?
CINDY ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: All right. Lisa Bloom, I want to start with you, because once I start with these two guys, I`m going to lose control of the show.
BLOOM: I don`t blame you.
POLITAN: So, Lisa, let`s talk about what Cindy Anthony was asked today, which is about sexual molestation. I think it`s clear to a lot of people there`s some secret in this family. Does your intuition or anything that you`ve heard inside that courtroom tell you that there was sexual molestation?
BLOOM: You know, I don`t believe that, Vinnie. I`m a lawyer. You`re a lawyer. I look for evidence. A lot of people say, oh, this family, they have all these secrets and lies. This is a terrible family. I don`t happen to agree with that. I think there`s one person in this family who has a lot of problems, whose probably very emotionally disturbed, and who`s a sociopath, and that`s Casey Anthony.
George, I think, is the bedrock of the family. I think he came across very well today. I think Cindy has come across well, although, she`s got some problems. I think Lee has come across very well. I wouldn`t throw out the baby with the bath water and indict all of this family. And I don`t see any evidence of sexual abuse that hasn`t been dragged forth (ph) in this trial. So, how anyone can conclude that is beyond me.
POLITAN: All right. Leonard, I want to go to you on this one because you were inside that house. You got to know them.
PADILLA: More than five minutes, I might tell you. The man ain`t got the facts right.
EIGLARSH: Just answer the damn question.
POLITAN: Any evidence, anything that you saw that sent off some signal that there was something terrible taking place in that house that may have been sexual abuse?
PADILLA: No.
POLITAN: Whether it`s George, Lee?
PADILLA: No, not from Lee, definitely not from George. Absolutely nothing like that whatsoever, no.
POLITAN: George`s character -- how would you characterize George? I mean, you got to know him a little bit. How would you describe this man?
PADILLA: George is three people in one. Retired cop, homicide, knows what happened, father of a daughter that`s a nut, grandfather of a child that he loved dearly. Conflicted constantly.
POLITAN: Absolutely conflicted. Here`s one more question. Are you going to keep your arm around Mark for the whole segment?
(LAUGHTER)
POLITAN: Can we take a shot of that?
EIGLARSH: For the love of god, enough already. Can we have a serious discussion?
PADILLA: He`s my kid. I lost him years ago.
(LAUGHTER)
POLITAN: Let`s talk about Roy Kronk. OK?
EIGLARSH: Please.
POLITAN: Let`s talk about Roy Kronk, because Roy Kronk testified about where he went in the woods, why he went there to relieve himself. He said he never called his son, Brandon Sparks, and told him in November that he was going to be on TV sometime in December. Let`s take a look at some of the testimony from the courtroom, and then, we`re going to talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re telling me now that you completely deny making a phone call to your son at all in November?
ROY KRONK, DISCOVERED CAYLEE`S REMAINS: My son was mistaken about that phone call. That phone call never happened. What I told him is I called him on December 11th.
BRANDON SPARKS, ROY KRONK`S SON: He told me that he knew where the remains were.
MASON: And when did he tell you this?
SPARKS: This was in November, in 2008.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Who`s telling the truth here? Who`s telling the truth?
EIGLARSH: That was a moment. That was absolutely a moment for the defense. Sparks made it very clear that the father called him a month before, and he looked like he was credible. I don`t know. Again, I don`t know if he`s accurate, but he looked believable. And, then, I say, OK, so what?
POLITAN: Listening to your answer, but I want to know what he has to say.
EIGLARSH: Oh.
(CROSSTALK)
POLITAN: You know why, because he looks like he`s questioning what you`re saying.
PADILLA: Let him bury himself.
EIGLARSH: Lot of question.
POLITAN: OK.
EIGLARSH: But the bottom line is, then, I sit back and say, you know what, they don`t have to prove this case beyond all doubt, just beyond a reasonable doubt. There`s always going to be questions in every single case, and Kronk had no contact with the Anthonys. there`s no -- you can`t take the leap that, somehow, he then disposes of the body or does something. It just isn`t there.
POLITAN: All right. All right, Leonard.
PADILLA: I agree with him totally.
POLITAN: You agree that --
EIGLARSH: Oh, come on. That`s the best you got?
PADILLA: No contact with the Anthonys, but he did talk to his son, because I was in constant contact with his son, Krystal, and his sister. And I gave all my notes and all my information to Baez way back.
EIGLARSH: How do you explain the call one month earlier? Just wondering.
POLITAN: Did Kronk have control of the remains?
PADILLA: No, no. He had the information as to where the remains were.
EIGLARSH: Oh, here we go again.
PADILLA: He had the information --
EIGLARSH: And law enforcement knew as well --
PADILLA: It had to come through his girlfriend who works at the jail.
POLITAN: Why isn`t she going to testify in court? You gave all your notes to Jose Baez.
PADILLA: Because it doesn`t help his story --
(CROSSTALK)
POLITAN: It doesn`t help Jose because it takes away from Casey is what you`re saying?
PADILLA: It sells books.
EIGLARSH: Yes, I got you, man (ph).
PADILLA: Because when the information was given by Casey to the attorney, what`s he supposed to do? I don`t know what Florida law is. You tell me. What is it in Florida?
EIGLARSH: So, you mean to tell me someone at the jail overhears this conversation. Again, you have no proof of it. It`s pure speculation, correct? And then, somehow they know. Law enforcement now knows where the body is. There`s hundreds of people, literally, dealing with rattlesnakes, heat, exhaustion, they`re out there all day, and law enforcement is just sitting on it, twiddling their thumbs waiting for something. That`s your theory? Am I off?
PADILLA: Are you going to put somebody`s pension on the line?
EIGLARSH: I don`t know what that means.
POLITAN: Lisa Bloom, make the call here, Lisa. I want you to judge the credibility not of the witnesses in the court, but the credibility of Leonard Padilla and Mark Eiglarsh. Who should we believe here?
BLOOM: Oh, don`t make me jump in on that one. Boy, that`s a tough one. I`ll tell you this. I think there`s something very strange.
EIGLARSH: Lisa is a best-selling author. Her book is fabulous.
BLOOM: There`s something very strange about it. I don`t think it adds up too much in this trial. I think maybe he did know where the remains were or moved the remains. I don`t know. We don`t have proof of that in this trial. But I don`t think it undermines the strong prosecution case against Case Anthony at this point.
POLITAN: Yes. And Leonard, here`s the thing. In court, I heard Kronk`s buddy say it was his idea to pull over in the shade. So, if it`s not even Roy Kronk`s idea to pull over in the shade and just stop for a few minutes when he goes to relieve himself, is he lying?
PADILLA: That`s a situation that`s always --
POLITAN: Is it a coincidence?
PADILLA: I don`t know, because I did talk to dean several times. He`s from Merced, California originally. And he is the one that brought the snake back, and he`s the one that had it in the freezer. But think about this. It took me a week to convince the FBI that the snake was in that man`s freezer, because they didn`t want to --
POLITAN: They wouldn`t believe you.
PADILLA: No.
POLITAN: See, you`ve got to believe this guy, mark.
PADILLA: They finally went up and knocked on the door.
POLITAN: Believe the hat.
EIGLARSH: Why is he doing all this?
POLITAN: Who?
EIGLARSH: What do you do?
PADILLA: Me?
EIGLARSH: Who hires -- what are you doing? You bonded her out.
POLITAN: The big question is why he`s wearing black tonight. You can hardly see -- you don`t see anything but the whites in his eyes.
EIGLARSH: Yes, that`s more important, Vin.
POLITAN: All right. The defense says it will rest tomorrow. Does that mean that Casey Anthony will not take the stand? We`ll talk about it next. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew. more from Orlando after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, JUDGE IN CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Mr. Baez, your best guesstimate or estimate as to when you think the defense will wrap their case up.
BAEZ: I certainly think we can accomplish that tomorrow.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If things go a little longer than anticipated, and closings are not Saturday, will they be Sunday? Or the Fourth of July?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: If there`s only one ultimate being that can judge another human being, and that`s our Almighty God. So, anybody else, they`re going to have to face their maker one day. And George and I and Casey and Lee will walk up to our maker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew. Casey`s fate lies with the jury. No one else. And that jury could sentence her to death. What must the jurors be thinking after today`s testimony and Casey`s bizarre behavior? Look at the faces that she`s made in court.
Attorneys Mark Eiglarsh and Lisa Bloom are back with us. Lisa also the author of "Think." Also joining us tonight is criminal defense attorney, Mark Nejame. He is George and Cindy Anthony`s former attorney. Let`s listen again now, guys and gal, to the first words we`ve heard from Casey in court today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to ask that question now or do you want to wait until Mr. Baez or Mr. Mason or Ms. Sims arrive?
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: I can answer that now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, ma`am.
CASEY ANTHONY: You`re welcome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Lisa Bloom, after hearing Casey Anthony stand up in court and speak, I can`t believe a couple of days ago, we were talking about whether or not she is competent to stand trial. She looks like she`s ready to represent herself today.
BLOOM: She`s definitely competent to stand trial. And I wouldn`t be surprised if she very much wants to take the stand. I also know that a good defense attorney would have never made the claims in opening statements that Jose Baez made if he didn`t have evidence to prove it. And the only evidence that he can have to prove it can come out of the mouth of Casey Anthony. So, that would all point to her testifying.
Of course, any good defense attorney and probably all of us here would also say, there`s no way she should testify. It`s only going to damage her case further. So, it`s a real cliff hanger as far as I`m concerned about whether she`s going to take that stand.
POLITAN: Mark Nejame, what I want you to pay attention to now, we`re going to play some sound from George Anthony on the stand. But pay attention to George Anthony, his demeanor versus his daughter`s demeanor. Take a look. Here`s George Anthony on the stand today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: Had you held out the hope that Caylee would be found alive?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Absolutely. Every day from July 15th until the day we were told it was Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: That question wasn`t just about George. That question was about Caylee. And it seemed -- and this is a theme I got from that is that she hates him more than she loved Caylee. I mean, she`s glaring at her father as he is breaking down talking about discovering Caylee dead.
MARK NEJAME, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And this does not go unnoticed by the jury. She is but a few feet away from the jurors who are watching her every move. They`re watching her almost like a tennis match back and forth. And, she`s an ice woman. They`ve heard nothing but terrible things. Her best case, her best case is she`s lied every day of her life, and she could care less about a proper burial for her daughter. Her best case. She`s a miserable human being is the best they can offer.
POLITAN: Here`s the thing, Mark, Mark Eiglarsh --
EIGLARSH: Yes.
POLITAN: Is that she did cry today, Casey Anthony, but she didn`t cry when they were talking about Caylee. She was crying when her expert witness came in and was talking about, who, Casey. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALLY KARIOTH, GRIEF COUNSELOR: Reluctant grievers, they have a tendency to buy in to the grief issue, and they often manifest very risky behavior. We can see that denial is a great helper. The story that may have happened can be changed a little bit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: It`s amazing. The only time that we see Casey crying is when we`re talking about Casey. Do you need a tissue? I don`t understand this. I mean, does a lawyer even mention this to a client? You know, hey, it might be a good idea to get a little emotional when they talk about your dead daughter and not talking about you. Do you have that conversation?
EIGLARSH: Yes. But I think -- I know this is an unpopular view. I think everyone is being a little hard on her on that issue. Let me finish.
POLITAN: Really? Really?
EIGLARSH: Yes I do. I don`t find anything so grossly inappropriate. The world is watching. She knows it. It`s very difficult. I`ve tried cases where my client`s heads are like just spinning. They know, Vinnie, they know that their life is on the line. Everyone`s watching. And it`s very difficult to act perfectly. No matter what she does, she`s damned --
POLITAN: No, Lisa Bloom, help me out. There`s a difference between acting perfectly and crying about yourself and never shedding a tear for your daughter.
EIGLARSH: That`s not evidence, Vinnie. You know that.
BLOOM: That`s right. And that`s because Casey Anthony is a sociopath. And I don`t say that lightly, but I`ve read extensively on the subject. A sociopath has no conscience and cares only about themselves. And that explains why she only cries when it`s something about her. That explains why she`ll lie and she`ll bring down her father, and her brother, and her entire family to suit herself because she has no conscious.
She has no empathy or compassion even for the people who are closest to her and for the people who have cared about her all of her life. That is the explanation for why she behaves the way that she does.
EIGLARSH: And ultimately, Vinnie, it can`t get any worse.
POLITAN: Will you let the other Mark talk?
EIGLARSH: Yes, go ahead.
(CROSSTALK)
NEJAME: Look, she gives narcissism a new definition. This is all about her, always has been, always will be, and is why she is pushing her defense team to let her take the stand tomorrow. She`s a professional liar. It`s all she knows. It`s all she does. She is going to convince them to let her take the stand. And if she doesn`t take the stand, it`s going to be yet another mistake this defense team has made.
POLITAN: Because at this point she`s got to?
NEJAME: Well, you can`t get lower than ground zero, and that`s where she`s at right now. There`s no lower she should come down to.
POLITAN: Do you agree, other Mark?
EIGLARSH: I don`t disagree, but it shouldn`t happen. I`d be in her face saying, no, let me do it and let me argue with an opening, let me argue reasonable doubt. I think that by Judge Perry saying when closings are going to be and state have your rebuttal witnesses ready, I think that was giving the indication to all of us that that`s probably not going to happen.
NEJAME: And by saying he does agree --
BLOOM: To think it`s her choice?
POLITAN: So you believe what Jose Baez said today. Go ahead, Lisa.
BLOOM: It`s her choice to take the stand. Don`t blame the defense team if she makes that choice. It`s her right just like it`s everybody`s right to testify in their own trial if they want to. And the judge is going to ask her in advance, have you talked this over with your attorneys? Yes. You know, make very clear that this is her decision. So, please, don`t blame the defense for that if she does it.
POLITAN: Here`s the thing. Now, it comes down to a matter of trust when that decision has to be made. I mean, going in, I believe she absolutely trusted and may still trust Jose Baez with her life. Does she trust him now after seeing the way this trial has gone on?
NEJAME: He`s her (INAUDIBLE). every time for three years you`ve seen them as a team. So, why would it change now?
POLITAN: Has she been watching the trial?
NEJAME: You even see her being pleasant and smiling, but she thinks a good job is being done.
EIGLARSH: Mark, don`t you think she`s smart enough to look over at her lawyer and see in court today that it was him who caused the whole gun evidence to come out? It was him who caused the suicide note now to come out? She knows that he is not a very talented attorney. She must know that, Mark.
NEJAME: I think today, she thinks that she`s got a win in her hands. She`s got a talented attorney. I think once she gets convicted, I think her mind will change, but I think until then --
POLITAN: Mark and Mark, thank you. Lisa Bloom, thank you.
Dr. Drew`s jury is next. The man with the badge, the enforcer, Brett Schulman is back. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for Dr. Drew. More live from Orlando after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: It`s the oddity of this case that has somehow made this case more important to other people than your average case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POLITAN: Welcome back to DR. DREW. I`m Vinnie Politan sitting in for the doc tonight. That was Jose Baez speaking with our own Ryan Smith about why people are so fascinated by this case. And now, folks, back by popular demand, one of the original members of Drew`s jury, Brett Schulman. You may know him as Barney Fife. He`s one of the -- he`s the first person in line today -- was it on the first day or today?
BRETT SCHULMAN, DR. DREW "JUROR": On the very first day.
POLITAN: On the first day. So, you`re juror number one.
SCHULMAN: juror number one.
POLITAN: That makes you the foreman of this jury. All right. Let`s talk about today, because today was a day that was tension-filled. There was a lot of emotion inside that courtroom. Were you feeling it where you were?
SCHULMAN: It was a roller coaster of emotions. People were just on the edge of their seat. George Anthony got up there and just let it go. It was -- he was rocking and rolling. I got to hand it to George. I was with him all the way. And I could feel the power from George. And he was basically saying, you know what, Baez, it`s me or it`s you. And you know what? --
POLITAN: Who won?
SCHULMAN: George Anthony. George Anthony. He did a phenomenal job today. He really showed the entire jury every ounce of his emotion. And it was real. I could see it in his eyes. I could just see him sweating. I could see him just wanting to reach out and just grab somebody and say, look, this is the way it is.
I have lost my granddaughter. I`m about to lose my daughter. I`m tired of this. Quit doing what you`re doing. Ask me the right questions in the right manner, because I tell you what, I`m getting ready to put the smackdown on you.
POLITAN: Are you going to do the closing arguments for the prosecution?
SCHULMAN: I`m loving it.
POLITAN: Because you`re fired up tonight.
SCHULMAN: I`m loving it.
POLITAN: Now, tell the people what happens inside that courtroom, because we see the tension, we feel the tension, but there has to be some moments where the tension breaks a little bit. Does anyone have a moment to smile, to laugh? Maybe whether at side bar or during a break?
SCHULMAN: Well, I can tell you, a little circumstance that happened today. Right after George got of the stand, just the man was broken, Baez tried to rock him, didn`t happen, though, because I tell you what, George came out swinging. And he was swinging hard. But, George walks away. And Jeff Ashton and Linda says, we`re leaving and we`re not coming back and then send us an email.
POLITAN: Wow.
SCHULMAN: And everybody laughed, and you could just see the tension just break loose. And it was really good. And it needed to happen at that particular moment.
POLITAN: Now, you were the man in charge of this line outside of the courthouse. How are things going these days in that line? Is it under control?
SCHULMAN: It is 100 percent under control. I have to tell you, the Orange County --
POLITAN: Did you have to arrest anybody?
SCHULMAN: No. The Orange County sheriff`s office is doing a fantastic job now. They got it down to a science. It`s about time. We`re happy. No more pushing, no more shoving, no more fighting. Everybody is getting along. Everybody is having a good time.
POLITAN: Fantastic. Hey, Brett, Dr. Drew wanted you to have these. He loves you so much. He sent you a little gift because he couldn`t be here tonight. Those are for you.
SCHULMAN: Oh, thank you so much.
POLITAN: Brett Schulman, Barney Fife, thank you, sir.
SCHULMAN: Thank you, sir.
POLITAN: Great to see you.
All right. Thank you so much, folks, for watching DR. DREW. We`ll see you tomorrow live from Orlando. Remember, Jose Baez says tomorrow is the day that the defense rests.
END
