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Casey Anthony to be Released Next Week
Aired July 7, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: (AUDIO GAP) -- over the Casey Anthony not guilty verdict.
I`m reading your tweets. I`m seeing the Facebook comments. I hear you and I hear your rage.
Now, a part of me of course shares the frustration, the anger, although I`m consistently trying to get people to calm down a little bit. We`re going to show you some footage later on in the show of how upset people are getting to the point where, frankly, it`s frightening me.
Don`t do anything, people. It`s frustrating. Let`s share our anger. But calm down a bit.
Now, there`s an overwhelming feeling here that justice has just not been served. The fact that Casey walks out of jail as a free woman in just days add salt to that wound.
Though we may never feel OK about this verdict, your rage is going to go away, your live are going to go on. The wounds will heel.
Go ahead and feel the anger. Let`s discuss. But let`s try to take that negativity and channel it in a more positive direction, to something productive -- service. Appreciate your children. Really, be good parents. Remind the children in your life how much you love them.
Donate your time to a school or a child advocacy group. Do something to honor the memory of Caylee so this child will not have died in vain. Remember, at the core of the story, what gets us all so worked up is that adorable little girl and the feeling that she died in vain.
Now to our breaking news. Just over 48 hours ago, many believed Casey Anthony`s fate would be death. And just hours ago we learned her fate is, in fact, freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first thing Cindy says to George is, "Oh, my gosh. There she is. She looks beautiful. Look at her hair. Look at her hair."
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: One year on each count, giving you credit for the time that you have previously served.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Judge Belvin Perry gave Casey Anthony the maximum sentence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right.
KAREN LEVEY, DIRECTOR, DUE PROCESS SERVICES, ORANGE COUNTY COURT: And her release date is July 13, 2011.
SMITH: A lot of people outside the courthouse are angry about this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could have walked out today. So whatever time she gets is better than nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s still not enough. Good behavior, there shouldn`t be any such thing for her.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": This kind of summarizes sort of performance art meets protest. They`re saying that that is absolutely not justice.
PINSKY: That Duct tape was rather spooky. I think I`m going to adopt that as some sort of message for the public. I`m not sure how I`m going to use it yet, but I`m going to.
Her release date, July 13, lucky 13 for Casey Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEVEY : At this time I`d like to announce that the defendant was given credit for 1,043 days, and at this time her release date has been calculated as July 13, 2011.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This stunning announcement caused further shock and outrage in a nation already furious with the verdict, not guilty of murdering her 2-year-old daughter Caylee. And for those seeking justice for Caylee, the day somewhat started on a positive note when Judge Belvin Perry sentenced Casey Anthony to the maximum jail sentence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: I will sentence you to one year in Orange County Jail, imposing a $1,000 fine on each count, all four counts to run consecutive to each other, giving you credit for the time that you have previously served.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We`re all doing the math in our head. What is that going to mean?
Joining me live, Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of HLN`s "ISSUES." And in studio here, famed prosecutor Marcia Clark.
Marcia, we knew she was going to be released from jail sooner than later. But really, Wednesday, doesn`t that seem problematic? Disturbing?
MARCIA CLARK, FMR. PROSECUTOR: Disturbing, it may be, but we all kind of thought it was going to be something close to time served. She`s been in for three years. So he could only give her the maximum of four years. You have good time, work time -- or they call it gain time. She`s out.
PINSKY: Jane, you earlier today, pointed out some numbers that I found rather startling -- if the control room could put these numbers up for me -- about how long Caylee was alive, as compared to how many days -- there we go. Casey served 1,043 days in jail, and Caylee 1,042 days of life.
Jane, wow. Those numbers add to our frustration and anger, don`t they?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. It`s really creepy, actually, that coincidence. And I`ll tell you something else that was very bizarre that happened today, Dr. Drew.
This, of course, the day that Casey learned exactly when she`s going to leave and be a free woman, leave jail. And there was is a lightning strike at a tree at the remains site, at the site where little Caylee`s remains were found.
Now, I`m not superstitious. I`m not saying there`s any meaning there, but it is very, very bizarre. A bizarre coincidence.
PINSKY: I think Nancy would have something to say about that. I think that`s the devil dancing, doing his dance. It is all weird, and I don`t want to make too light of it, because it`s something that`s so disturbing. It`s hard to process all this.
I want to ask you one more thing, Jane. And that is, when she goes back home, what is next? And where is home?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s the big question. I don`t think she can go back to her parents` house. And I don`t think she`s going to go back to her parents` house. Their subdivision had to be cordoned off this week because there were protesters streaming there.
Now, Cheney Mason, one of her defense attorneys, said, well, she could come over and stay at my house for a couple of days. We`ve heard radio reports that some distant cousin in Texas has offered to take her in, but that`s probably temporary.
You know where I think she`s going to end up? Shake the country and where do all the loose screws go? Los Angeles.
That is the place for her, the reality television capital of the world, the place of actors. It`s the place for Casey Anthony. I predict she will end up in L.A.
Well, Marcia and I will be here with the other nuts and -- what did you call -- fruits and nuts?
CLARK: Nuts and bolts.
PINSKY: And screwballs, whatever, as I roll down here?
OK. Well, among the post-verdict details, we`re learning a letter has surfaced that Casey wrote to her friend Tracy in February, 2009. Part of what Casey wrote is rather jaw-dropping. Listen to this. I`m going to read it.
She says in this letter, "I had a dream not too long ago that I was pregnant. It was like having Case (ph) all over again." The first time I`ve heard that little nickname. Again, weird.
"I`ve thought" -- here`s the weirder part. "I`ve thought about adopting," which even sounds weird to me, saying it, "but there are so many children that deserve to be loved."
Wow. Marcia, does any child deserve Casey`s love? Casey`s version of love?
CLARK: Oh my God. No, I mean, right there -- can you imagine her applying for adoption? Hi. My name is Casey Anthony. Wait. Wait.
PINSKY: Am I being Punk`d?
CLARK: Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: Is this part of your plan for capitalizing on your fame, Casey?
CLARK: I`m thinking that`s going to be a little difficult for her. So I don`t see that happening.
PINSKY: Yes. Again, it`s so funny tonight. I can`t find myself doing anything but joking, because it`s so unsettling and weird and --
CLARK: It`s bizarre.
PINSKY: It`s getting more and more bizarre. I think these -- this laughter is more out of a discomfort.
All right. Well, during my exclusive interview last night with prosecutor Jeff Ashton, we talked about Casey and mental illness, which is something I`ve been sort of shaking my head about all along. Why aren`t we talking more about this? And this is germane to the issue of her being an adoptive parent too.
This is what he had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Casey`s team wanted her declared mentally incompetent. What was that about? Do you think that she wanted to take the stand?
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: I credit the defense with doing a good job in trying to make it look like mental illness without saying so, because they couldn`t. That was part of the purpose of the initial closing argument that I did, was to show that these imaginary people were created for a reason. You know, each creation had a purpose and each new wrinkle to the lie obtained something for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jane, do you have any reaction to what he said there?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I find the prosecutor, Jeff Ashton, a fascinating individual because he is so genteel in this defeat. And I think there are things that the prosecution could have done differently.
I think they could have taken their closing argument and made it their opening statement. They seemed ambushed by Jose Baez`s opening of the accidental drowning, the molestation. But Prosecutor Ashton says that, hey, they knew all that was coming.
Well, if they knew all that was coming, why didn`t they plan for it? This is guerrilla warfare in a legal setting. This is no time, unfortunately, for gentility.
This is dirty stuff. And I think you`ve got to get your hands dirty. And if you don`t, you`re going to lose in this climate.
PINSKY: Marcia, do you have any reaction to what Ashton was saying about Casey and mental illness?
CLARK: I do. And I think a couple of things about that.
Number one, she doesn`t even come close to meeting the standard of mental incompetence in a courtroom.
PINSKY: Right. For sure.
CLARK: So that was all nonsense.
CLARK: But if he wants to build in some kind of record on appeal, some kind of issue, that she was mentally incompetent, and start to create something --
PINSKY: This was the defense.
CLARK: The defense.
CLARK: In the event of a conviction, a lot of defense attorneys will try to build in issues to argue later on appeal. So, to be able to argue and say, you know what, there was a problem here, the judge didn`t handle it properly --
PINSKY: Is that more what that was about then trying to prevent her from going on the stand, which is what a lot of people thought that was?
CLARK: That too. That too. Oh, yes, you get two whacks out of that one.
PINSKY: Both. Interesting.
Now, Casey Anthony`s defense attorney we`re talking about here, and who we`ve seen recently, Jose Baez, was interviewed by ABC`s Barbara Walters just last night. And he had this to say about his client.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think what we do in our society is we judge people pretty harshly. And we judge them as if we know how we would react if we were in their shoes.
But the fact is, we`re not in their shoes. And we haven`t lived the life they have lived. So I think when people start judging people that way, I think it`s a bit unfair. People grieve in many different ways, and people respond to trauma in various ways.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jane, that`s kind of a profound statement, which is saying that if any criminal, if we lived their life, we`d understand why they`re being a criminal. Do we overstep our bounds as media in trying to understand Casey Anthony?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the whole purpose of a criminal trial is to judge someone. That`s why they have a judge. That`s why they call it judgment day.
With all due respect -- and I admire Jose Baez for arguing an excellent case and doing a masterful job -- but that`s absurd. That`s why there are jurors there, to judge.
And the fact that he was able to convince them not to judge her, it just shows you what a brave and clever manipulation the whole situation was. I mean, this woman needed to be judged. Nobody`s ever judged her.
Her parents enabled her. They were totally codependent on her. Somebody finally needed to judge her, and guess what? The jury failed to do so.
PINSKY: Well, Jane, thank you for your comments.
Marcia is going to stay with me.
And up next, we`ve all been asking, what is next for Casey? The attorney for George and Cindy Anthony is here to help us figure all that out.
And ahead, my interview with Casey`s former fiance, Jesse Grund. You will not believe his explosive statements. You don`t want to miss it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FMR. FIANCE: She tried to call me and I was unavailable at the time. And I told her, whatever it was, just text me. And I received a text message, "I`m pregnant. It`s yours. My parents know."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACEY JORDAN, HLN PRODUCER: Casey actually walked in and we were just shocked at the way -- the first thing Cindy says to George is, "Oh, my gosh. There she is. She looks so beautiful. Look at her hair. Look at her hair."
And George said, "Yes, it looks like it got longer." But just so loving and not -- any tension at all from what we anticipated seeing or hearing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was really a surprising report.
And the breaking news tonight, Casey Anthony going home next Wednesday. But where is home?
Does she move back in with her parents, George and Cindy? Does she move in with her brother Lee? There are rumors that she might relocate to Houston, Texas, to live with cousins. I heard that that may or may be without Cindy. Or does her attorney, Jose Baez, have other plans for Casey?
And I want to remind us all of a couple of things.
One is, hang on. Calm down, people. Calm down. If she leaves court, don`t anybody think of anything crazy here. Let`s see where she goes.
And also remind ourselves of what this family has been dragged through.
We`re going to get into it, but first, watch this video to remind ourselves of what Baez accused George Anthony of having done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: This child, at 8 years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: What is next for this family?
Attorney Marcia Clark remains with me in the studio. And Anthony family attorney Mark Lippman joins us again.
All right. Marcia, first, what do you make of George`s comments heard by the HLN producers today in court being so positive and -- they said the words loving towards her.
CLARK: I`m wondering if they`re all trying to accommodate the situation now and kind of get back together and heal it all and put it behind them. I don`t know how they can possibly do it, but it looks like an effort to do that.
PINSKY: Is it a strategy of some kind, do you think? I mean, did somebody coach them to put up a good happy face? Who knows?
CLARK: Who knows? I mean, I have heard also, by the way, that the family is getting death threats, the mother and father.
PINSKY: I`m not surprised.
CLARK: And so there may be a siege mentality, let`s all kind of circle the wagon.
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting. So a common enemy drags them all together. That`s very interesting.
We sat with Tracey McLaughlin, who talked -- and Tracy was the one that was inside the Anthony family home, and she talked a good deal about what it was like inside that home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACEY MCLAUGHLIN, STAYED IN ANTHONY HOME: The first morning I was there I woke up to George screaming at Casey.
PINSKY: First morning?
MCLAUGHLIN: The very first morning.
PINSKY: What was he screaming about?
MCLAUGHLIN: "Where is my granddaughter? What have you done with her? I know you`re lying. Quit lying to me. Where`s my granddaughter?"
And she`s screaming back, "Don`t treat me like a scum bag, pop! Why don`t you try being a father for once?"
IT was this huge fight. Well, she comes in the bedroom -- I was in her room, so she came in there just mad because she said, "My dad always treats me like he`s a cop. He always thinks I`m lying."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, remember, that is Padilla`s associate who stayed in the home after Padilla got Casey bailed out. If you want to see more of that interview, we`re going to have it tomorrow.
Now, Mark, do you think that Casey and George can heal their relationship? None of us know what`s going on there. Were they brought together by this tragedy, or has this pulled them apart? What can you say to us?
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR ANTHONY FAMILY: Unfortunately, I can`t talk about what my client George Anthony thinks. Certainly, Casey, either through herself or through her attorney, made comments in that trial that, as an outsider looking in, if they`re baseless, as I`ve said before, there`s going to be some sort of a showdown, I imagine, at some point, where somebody is going to have to explain what those comments mean and where they came from. But as far as what my client thinks, I`m still bound by attorney-client privilege.
PINSKY: One quick comment. Do they think she`s innocent of all this? Or can you say?
LIPPMAN: Again, whatever they think -- even if I said what I think, I can`t answer.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you so much, Mark.
And we will -- Marcia is going to stay with us. Mark is going to stay with us as well. And we`re going to take your questions.
Now, we`re all getting blasted with inquiries from you guys, so we`re going to bring them into the studio. And stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Casey was the last one that I saw with Caylee. One and one adds up to two, sir. The decomposition that I smelled in the trunk of my daughter`s car on July 15, 2008 at Johnston`s (ph) Towing smelled like human decomposition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So, Casey Anthony is getting out of jail. Next Wednesday is the day.
Casey pranced into the courtroom today with hair down. She was all smiles. Everyone noticed a completely different Casey.
Getting ready for Hollywood? I don`t know. She walks out of jail in just six days.
Back with me, attorneys Marcia Clark and Mark Lippman.
And as I said, there have been a lot of questions pouring down on us. Let`s get to a couple of answers here.
We`ll first go to Facebook. June writes, "Can Casey`s aunt or uncle bring up a civil lawsuit for the wrongful death of Caylee?"
Mark or Marcia?
CLARK: Oh, I`ll take it. I would think she could. The aunt and uncle are relatives after all.
PINSKY: I mean, you can do anything in a civil suit.
CLARK: Yes, you can follow the lawsuit. I don`t know what they`re going to collect.
PINSKY: Well, they may just be angry with her and try to make her life less palatable.
CLARK: Absolutely. Absolutely.
PINSKY: OK. I`ve got another Facebook question. This is Andrea. She writes, "How do you feel about Cheney Mason blasting the medial during the news conference?"
Mark, how do you feel about that? Did you have any opinion?
LIPPMAN: Sure, I`ll be happy to field that. I`m just wanting everybody to know that action is not representative of anybody in the Florida Bar or the Orange County Bar.
I highly respect Mr. Mason, and I`ve worked with him in the past. It was just either poor judgment or caught up in the moment. I`m not sure what happened there, but I can assure everyone, that`s not the typical Mason I know.
PINSKY: Interesting. That`s very interesting. I`m glad to hear that.
And Mark, I understand that Lee is getting a new attorney. Can you tell us anything about that?
LIPPMAN: You know, I`m actually getting that information also. No. I still represent Lee Anthony. I just don`t speak for him.
He`s very capable for speaking for himself. So when I speak, I`m only speaking for George and Cindy.
PINSKY: All right. And can you tell us what the -- I understand you have certain confidentiality issues, of course, and I want you to protect those. But what`s it going to be like for George and Cindy?
I mean, are they OK? Would they welcome Casey back if she were to come back? Can you tell us a little about that? People are very curious.
LIPPMAN: Sure. I can`t talk about what they would do if Casey came home, or whatever she decides to do. I can tell you that they are taking everything day by day.
They`re assimilating everything from the verdict, to hearing that their daughter is going to be released next week, to trying to figure out what they`re going to do with their lives. And as they make those choices, certainly my firm and myself will be there to support them. But it`s going to be --
PINSKY: Mark, are they going to stay together? Are they OK together? Is their relationship intact? Can you say that?
LIPPMAN: That`s something even less that I could talk about.
PINSKY: Oh. I`m sorry.
LIPPMAN: Certainly whatever they choose to do, they`re going to go ahead and do. But I can`t divulge those things.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting.
Well, I appreciate being here with you, Mark. I know that you`re strained by a lot of the confidentiality issues, and I certainly don`t want you to compromise any of that.
And Marcia, I`ll of course thank you for joining us, as always. I do appreciate it.
Coming up, the welcome mat is not out for some of the jurors in their very own hometown. You`ve got to see this. You`re going to get the reaction and the mood in Florida.
Also, next, Casey`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, sits down with us to talk about the real Casey Anthony, the one he knew for quite some time, and his relationship with her and the Anthony family. It`s very interesting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Another countdown is on. Casey Anthony becomes a free woman in six days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury spoke loud and clear on counts one, two, and three by their verdict.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this time, her release date has been calculated as July 13th, 2011.
PINSKY: Casey primped (ph) in the courtroom today, but for what? We should all get ready for Casey life after jail. Could it include a baby?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody has been concerned for her safety.
PINSKY: Now that the verdict is sinking in, why can`t people get over it?
PINSKY: More jurors are talking. They have no regrets. Do the Anthonys?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): I`ve been saying all along that we`re just trying to understand Casey Anthony and what happened here. So, I talked to a gentleman who was once engaged to Casey. His name is Jesse Grund. I spoke with Jesse and his father just after she was found not guilty of murder. Both tell a fascinating story that will take us inside the mind of Casey Anthony. Watch.
PINSKY: What do you think happened? Can you say?
JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: Obviously, Casey was the last person to see Caylee alive.
JESSE GRUND: Obviously, the evidence points to the fact that she took her body and put it somewhere in the woods. That`s what the evidence tells me.
PINSKY: OK. And, Richard, you wanted to ring in a little bit here, too. This is your chance. Please. Your thoughts?
RICHARD GRUND, SON WAS ENGAGED TO CASEY ANTHONY: I will say this about Casey. Everybody has painted her out to be a monster. Casey is broken. It`s obvious that there`s something wrong, but I will tell you this. When she was in our house three, four, or five days a week for over 10 months, she was fun to have around. She`s (INAUDIBLE) with us. She`d do family devotions with us. She`d watch TV with us.
When she gave you a hug, she`d tuck in under your armpit, and it was the kind of hug that said protect me. And I can see why everybody falls in love with Casey, but the more you`re around her, the more you begin to see a pattern of exaggeration of things not lining up, and you kind of just slough it off. She`s immature, she`s young.
Obviously, there`s some kind of a self-worth issue because she needs to fit in badly. I`ve listened to three years of the lynch mod mentality, she`s a monster, she`s a monster. She`s not. She`s a person and there`s something wrong. And somebody didn`t love her enough to do something about it.
PINSKY: Jesse, were you surprised by the verdict?
JESSE GRUND: I was shocked I think is the better choice of word than surprised. I was shocked.
PINSKY: Help me understand what you know that helps the rest of us get our head around what happened here.
JESSE GRUND: I can`t even wrap my head around what happened here, and I`ve known Casey for years. Well, the old Casey. Not necessarily the one that`s been sitting in court, smiling and laughing while her murder trial has been going on, but the old Casey that I knew, I wouldn`t have been shocked by this verdict. However, this person as she stands today, I know little about the way she ticks.
PINSKY: Let`s go over your relationship and how it unfolded. When did you guys meet and how did you meet?
JESSE GRUND: We met while I was working at Universal Studios in December of 2004. I was a loss prevention officer which is an undercover security, and she was an assistant manager of a Kodak kiosk store inside Universal Studios. We met, kind of one of those love at first sight moments, and from there, started dating.
PINSKY: How was your relationship? Was it a calm relationship? A tumultuous relationship?
JESSE GRUND: No. She was very quiet. She was reserved. She was very funny. She was fun to be around. It started out great. It was very passionate for lack of a better term. However, I ended it soon afterwards just based on the fact that I was only 22 at the time and I was still feeling like I needed some more time to myself. But we remained friends until notification that I was potentially going to be the father of her child.
PINSKY: Tell me about that. How did you learn that?
JESSE GRUND: I received that notification via text message. She tried to call me and I was unavailable at the time. And I told her whatever it was just text me. I received a text message, I`m pregnant, it`s yours, my parents know.
PINSKY: Is the child -- is Caylee what brought you back into her life?
JESSE GRUND: We were friends. We remained constant with each other even after the first part of our relationship ended. However, Caylee really solidified -- it made me grow up. I had to take on the responsibilities of being a father. So, I had to grow up in an instant. And when I realized it was time for me to grow up, Casey ended up being the person that I wanted to be with.
PINSKY: And then, when did you learn that this, perhaps, wasn`t your child?
JESSE GRUND: Well, Dr. Drew, the math never really worked. I mean, she told me that she`s pregnant, and that the baby is born full-term in August, but we didn`t start dating until late January. So, she would have had been a premie baby for her to have been mine.
However, I did (INAUDIBLE) thing and got a paternity test within two weeks of Caylee being born, which told me that I had a 100 percent probability that I was not her father, but at that point, I loved them both dearly, and I decided it doesn`t take blood to be a father, and that this was going to be my family.
PINSKY: That still must have been pretty tough. Did you ever find out who the father was?
JESSE GRUND: She told me a story of a gentleman that she had dated, had a one night stand with, and didn`t want to have anything to do with Caylee`s life. I would press at times just based on the fact if I was going to take on the responsibilities of being an adoptive father, I wanted the other dad out of the way or contributing to her life. However, she never really told me any more information, and it was the gentleman that she slept with, and Caylee was born as a result of it.
PINSKY: Did you know Casey to have a problem with lying when you were dating her?
JESSE GRUND: She would exaggerate certain truths. She would do things to feel included which I think stems from self-esteem issues that she had when we were dating.
PINSKY: Why do you think bad self-esteem issues on her? I`ve heard that before. Where was that coming from?
JESSE GRUND: Why do I think she had self-esteem issues?
PINSKY: Where did (ph) it came from? Did she have a bad upbringing or some stories to tell that -- I haven`t heard anyone talk about who she really is or has been other than what you`re telling me right now. And people with self-esteem issues often have stories. Things happen when growing up.
JESSE GRUND: You know, there`s no one particular moment or instance that I can point at, Dr. Drew, that would tell me that it was the root of her self-esteem issues. However, I saw the dynamic of the household. I saw the way that she was treated by certain members of that household. And that just kind of indicated to me that over the years, she may have been torn down enough to not think very well of herself?
PINSKY: That`s by mom, I imagine?
JESSE GRUND: Yes, sir.
PINSKY: Are there things you can talk about now that you couldn`t talk about when the case was underway?
JESSE GRUND: Well, you know, my whole intention was to never hinder this trial, was never to say anything in an interview with any media individual that would keep her from getting a fair trial or possibly impeach my testimony if I was called to the stand. So, at this stage in the game, you know, everything is fair game now that we have a verdict then.
PINSKY: Is there stuff that you can tell me about her that we don`t know?
JESSE GRUND: It was a rough house. I mean, I wanted her out of there as quick as possible --
PINSKY: Is that just because of she and Cindy? Or is that also with George?
JESSE GRUND: It`s the whole family, sir. It`s every aspect of that family. Just from my opinion and my past experiences and my observations, I did not see that as a household that I would want to grow up in. It wasn`t anything like the household that I grew up in. My parents were very encouraging. They were very loving. They were very forgiving.
They never took my past failures and threw them in my face continually. I was blessed with a wonderful childhood and a wonderful household, and a wonderful, loving non-bizarre family.
PINSKY: Well, I need to know more about what you mean by bizarre. Was there physical violence amongst them? Were there secrets? Was there sexual abuse?
JESSE GRUND: Dr. Drew, I never saw a royal rumble go down between anybody in the family. There were no chairs being thrown or anything like that.
PINSKY: Was it just the negativity? Just the extreme like breaking her down?
JESSE GRUND: It was constant negativity.
JESSE GRUND: It was constant negativity. It was watching past failures being thrown back into her face.
PINSKY: Give me an example of a past failure. That`s the kind of stuff I`d like to know about Casey. Where in the past has she let people down that lets us know that this is a person that could do something horrible?
JESSE GRUND: You know, I`ve shared this story before, and obviously, I will gladly share it again. I was sitting on the sofa with Casey with Cindy in the room. We were watching a movie. And Casey and Cindy started a conversation, well, actually, Cindy started the conversation, and it was more of an attack. That`s started with, when are you going to pay me back for the hospital bills. Casey asked her not to continue the conversation because I was present and wasn`t one that she wanted to have in front of me.
Cindy then blew up on her, stood up, looked at me, pointed at me and pointed at Casey and said how could you ever want to be with somebody who is a high school dropout. She`s got no future. She doesn`t even have a good enough job to support her child. She doesn`t have money to pay me back. Why would you want to be with somebody like that who`s a failure?
PINSKY: Wow. How`d you respond? What`d you say?
JESSE GRUND: I responded the way that Cindy Anthony did not want me to respond. I stood up and defended Casey. I told her that she would never ever talk about her like that in front of me, ever again.
PINSKY: And when we continue, Jesse Grund talks about Casey, the party girl. And this, being set up for murder. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND: She told me at one point in recent years that she woke up one night with Lee standing over her in bed staring at her sleep, and then, another instance was groping her in the middle of the night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Before we continue this revealing discussion with Casey`s ex- fiance, let me read a statement that he gave us just today regarding her sentence. He says, quote, "I feel Judge Perry made a fair and reasonable ruling based on all his available options. The judge sentenced her based on the crimes she was convicted of. That`s all that can be asked of him."
All right. Let`s go ahead now and return to my conversation with Casey`s ex-fiance, Jesse Grund and his father.
PINSKY: Let`s talk about sort of Casey`s behavior, because you said she was relatively quiet and reserved. I keep -- fun is a word I`ve heard over and over by people around her. Funny I`ve heard too. Likable I`ve heard. I`ve also heard great chatty. You`re saying she wasn`t chatty. She was quiet.
JESSE GRUND: When I first met her, she was very shy and quiet.
PINSKY: All right. Did she seem to present different people to one another and did she seem different to one person as opposed to another?
JESSE GRUND: Absolutely. She assimilated herself into every situation. She was the perfect chameleon when it came to social experiences.
PINSKY: Were there times where, you know, the Casey Anthony that came out was somebody sort of surprising to you?
JESSE GRUND: No. After awhile, Dr. Drew, I figured out the way she ticked.
PINSKY: Which is what?
JESSE GRUND: I was never quite surprised. The whole chameleon, you know, including herself into things, you know, assimilating herself into different situation, social situations, which I understood the backing of that. I understood that there was an element of her just wanting to be a part of it.
PINSKY: Because people, you know, they brought up the whole issue of sexual abuse, and some people can have almost multiple personality types. Did you ever think that she was like literally different people with different people?
JESSE GRUND: No. I never noticed any --
PINSKY: OK. The other thing that keeps coming up is that she was a party girl whatever that means. I mean, to me, it means a lot of things. What are we talking about here? Was she a heavy drug user? Was she a heavy drinker?
JESSE GRUND: She didn`t. Dr. Drew, she didn`t start any of that lifestyle until after our engagement ended. You can ask, you can talk to friends, you can talk to people who observed it. That lifestyle, at first, did not start until after our engagement ended.
PINSKY: And how would you describe that lifestyle?
JESSE GRUND: Well, I had some interaction with her afterwards when she had started that lifestyle. It was more of just heavy drinking which heavy drinking for her who`s a 5`2", 110-pound girl is like, you know, six or seven beers. So, I mean, we`re not talking about somebody I saw snorting lines of coke or taking pills or doing anything else. She was just living the lifestyle of a 21 to 22-year-old. The only problem is is that she was living a lifestyle with a 21, 22-year-old with a one-year-old, two-year-old at home.
PINSKY: Right. I understand. Now, Jesse, at one point, you told the police that Casey and Cindy were trying to frame you for the murder of Caylee. Watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND: I was told by individual who was working with the Anthony family who had got to sit in on a couple of the attorney meetings that Casey was telling her attorneys and Cindy was backing her up on this, that I killed Caylee. That I planted the evidence in the car. That I had access to the car because I had keys and that I was framing her because of my obsession with Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your understanding from this person is the family`s posturing towards they know that the child is deceased, but they`re posturing towards the defense?
JESSE GRUND: Correct. Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who told you this?
JESSE GRUND: Leonard Padilla told me that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Padilla tell you how you killed the baby? Did they say how they were putting that together?
JESSE GRUND: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they`re trying to say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I mean, Jesse, you were deeply involved with this girl, and then, this comes back at you. I mean, that must have been, like, earth shattering. No?
JESSE GRUND: Reality shattering to hear somebody try and implicate me for murder. I`m not the perfect human being by any stretch of the imagination. I`ve made my share of mistakes like anybody else, but one thing in this world that I can tell you unequivocally is I would have never hurt a hair on Caylee`s head. This was intentional. This was personal about going after me.
RICHARD GRUND: Ongoing for three years.
JESSE GRUND: For three years, this has been going on, and this has had nothing to do with just seeing who we could implicate in this. This was about personally going after me. This was about individuals responsible for this frame job as I like to call it going after me and my family, trying to discredit us, trying to destroy us.
PINSKY: I understand that Casey actually brought up with you this issue of Lee possibly having done something to her.
JESSE GRUND: Yes. Well, actually, she didn`t bring it up, Dr. Drew. I had to pry it out of her. When Caylee was born and we brought her over to the house, Lee acted very awkward around me. He wouldn`t say anything to me. He wouldn`t look me in the eye. When he did, he was scowling at me. I mean, he seemed very angry at the fact that I was with Casey. Then, he never met me before.
So, finally, and Casey did not want to have Caylee around Lee at all. So, finally, one day, we were in the nursery, and I had to pry this information out of her. I asked her, I said why is Lee not taking an interest in Caylee? He`s the uncle. He should be doing things. She said I don`t feel comfortable with him being around her. Why don`t you feel comfortable? I don`t want to talk about it.
I said what don`t you want to talk about? She goes, I don`t want to talk about what happened. It`s not important. I had to sit there and ask her repeatedly until finally she said, my brother has tried to have sex with me before. What am I supposed to say to that? My first response is shocked followed by anger. I continually start asking her, like, what do you mean your brother is trying to have sex with you?
And she divulged to me the fact that she would wake up in the middle of the night, and he would just be standing over her watching her sleep.
PINSKY: Did you ever think maybe something more was going on than just this standing over and touching business?
JESSE GRUND: Well, there was more. Obviously, you know, you kind of touched on it. The groping issue that she woke up in the middle of the night, and he`d be groping her while she was sleeping. Did I ever suspect there was more than that? I was so disgusted from the very thought of Lee trying to possibly sleep with Casey according to what she told me. I was so disgusted by that fact. I wanted out of that conversation as quick as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty! You got to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) kidding me! That judge (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That (EXPLETIVE DELETED). What did she do? (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the defendant not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty! Oh, my God! I give up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, as you can see, angry grandpa was a little upset there over the verdict, and I want to say it one more time. Everybody, no vigilante justice. This is our system functioning. Please calm down. Let`s try to make sense of this. Let`s try to learn from it and let`s stay positive with service over all this energy that`s evoked in us.
We`re all over the breaking news today. Now, in less than a week, Casey Anthony will have her first taste of freedom after three years behind bars. Judge Perry sentenced her to four years in jail with credit for time served. Joining me now from Tampa, Florida, is Clearwater Restaurant owner, John McClure. We asked John to come on the show because he caused quite a ruckus in Pinellas County.
This is where the Anthony jurors live. It`s what they call home, Pinellas County. Now, right after the verdict was read Tuesday, John was so furious with the outcome, not quite as furious and as angry with grandpa, but he was furious, and he posted a sign in his restaurant that said Pinellas County jurors not welcome. You see it there. All right. We welcome now John to our show. John, explain the sign to me and the reaction people have had to it.
JOHN MCCLURE, DR. DREW "JUROR": Well, I watched the entire trial. And when I heard the verdict of not guilty on that Tuesday morning, I was shocked and angry. And, I put the sign on the door just to voice my opinion of the outcome of the verdict of the trial.
PINSKY: My understanding is you were asked to take it down. Tell us that part of the story.
MCCLURE: Well, I got about 95 percent of the feedback that I received was positive from the customers coming through the door. Well, about five percent of the feedback got back to my corporate office, and they were -- they had to deal with it because I`m a franchise owner. So, they made me take the sign down. And I did. But now, the sign is all over Facebook and all over the internet. And, I just needed to make that statement for the little girl who died because I didn`t approve of the verdict.
PINSKY: And, John, my understanding is somebody called in who claimed to have been a juror and felt discriminated against. Is that accurate?
MCCLURE: I don`t know if that`s 100 percent accurate, but that is what I heard through the voice of my corporate office.
PINSKY: John, I`ve got about ten seconds with you. Let me ask you this. If Casey were to walk in your restaurant, would you serve her?
MCCLURE: I would not.
PINSKY: Somehow, I`m not surprised. John, thank you for joining us, and I think a lot of people share your feelings. Certainly, angry grandpa does.
Thank you all out there for watching. It`s been an interesting program. We`re back tomorrow where we have Tracey McLaughlin. Now, you really need to see this interview, particularly, if you like Jesse Grund, you`ll learn more about Casey. She is the woman who lived in the Anthony home with Casey while Caylee was missing. It`s very intense interview. I promise. Be there, and I will see you then.