Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Jury Foreperson Says They Believed Anthony Guilty

Aired July 11, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bombshell tonight. While national polls say two thirds of all Americans believe tot mom`s guilty of killing 2-year-old little Caylee, her only child, in the last hours, we learn the jury foreman who acquits tot mom agrees. That`s right, the jury foreman that set tot mom free reveals tonight that, quote, "Most of the jury believes tot mom killed little Caylee," that the not guilty verdict makes him, quote, "sick and disgusted." And now he tells us?

As the hours tick down for tot mom to make her escape from Orange County jail, tonight we confirm she`s set to leave town ASAP, putting as much distance between herself and the swampy spot where little Caylee dumped like trash. This as we learn vigilante death threats continue to mount against tot mom, George and Cindy Anthony and defense lawyers, coming in by e-mail, phone and fax. One juror quits her job over the trial. But is it really because she plans to cash in on the verdict?

At this hour, no more Anthony family attempts to visit tot mom behind bars after she turns her own mother away from the jail Friday night. With seven-figure money offers pouring in for tot mom, tonight we learn, in the next hours, tot mom finally forced under oath to answer hard questions. And we are set to finally see secret jailhouse video, tot mom behind bars when she learns Caylee`s remains discovered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A motion has been filed to release the videotape of Casey on the day that the remains were found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI is also on scene as we continue to process the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony must also be aware of this at the jailhouse.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She lost her breath. Her hands started to sweat.

CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s enough to send her over the edge.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) chains are getting tighter and tighter on me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They might be taking her away from the television so that she`s not watching this.

CASEY ANTHONY: I just want to let everyone know I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) some emotional distress (INAUDIBLE) like she wanted to cry.

CASEY ANTHONY: I feel extremely guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony breaks down in tears.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t break down and cry because this isn`t real.

CASEY ANTHONY: You know, I`m going to...

(CROSSTALK)

CASEY ANTHONY: ... just walk away right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you imagine if we get to see that?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. While national polls say two thirds of all America believes tot mom is guilty of killing 2-year-old Caylee, in the last hours, we learned the jury foreman who acquits tot mom agrees. So now he tells us?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The husband of juror number 12 says his wife has gone into hiding, literally. The 60-year-old woman fears for her safety.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young lady has got some -- definitely got a bit of a criminal past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony stole checks and money from a friend, and she did this during a time when Caylee was missing.

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

I can`t sit here and be crying every two seconds!

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Why won`t you, you know, allow us to see Caylee? She says, Well, maybe I`m a spiteful (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chloroform will have to be investigated as a potential cause of death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She drugged the baby so she could go out and party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s well documented Casey Anthony liked to party.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zanny the nanny is really Xanax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of her friends even says at parties, quote, "the kid slept through anything."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her.

I have no clue where my daughter is? Yes, that is the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at! Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man says his wife told him she would rather go to jail than sit on another jury like this one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls, still at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest as tot mom set to walk as the clock ticks down. But now we learn, as the lead juror, the foreperson of that jury that acquits tot mom, says he`s, quote, "sick and disgusted" at the verdict, that many of the jurors know tot mom killed her daughter.

We see tot mom is set to leave town -- that`s right, put as much distance between herself and that spot where Caylee`s remains were found, just 15 houses down from where tot mom put her head on the pillow every night, knowing her daughter -- her daughter -- was literally rotting 15 houses down! Oh, yes, she`s leaving town!

Out to Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session." What do we know, Michael? Is she set to leave the jail like Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan, in the middle of the night in a big black SUV with tinted windows so nobody knows what`s happened? You know what? Fine! Go!

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Yes, you know, there have been so many different scenarios out there, Nancy. Some people think that she`s left already, that she`s been released and we just don`t know it.

GRACE: What?

CHRISTIAN: There are -- there are other people who...

GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Wait!

CHRISTIAN: ... think she`s been moved...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Back it up! Back it up! Back it up!

CHRISTIAN: Yes.

GRACE: Back it up!

CHRISTIAN: Yes.

GRACE: Wouldn`t it be incumbent on the Orange County jail to release that information, if it`s true?

CHRISTIAN: It depends on what they`ve done with her. She could, for example, have been moved to another county jail, Osceola County, Lake County, somewhere near, where necessarily people wouldn`t be watching for her to leave. That`s a possibility.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Wa-wa-wa-wa-wait! Let`s analyze that theory.

CHRISTIAN: OK.

GRACE: Now, they are an arm of the state, the Orange County jail, the OC jail. They have -- are subject to Freedom of Information Act. They can`t lie about a request. So isn`t it true, Michael Christian, if she were being housed somewhere else, they would say something like, She`s within the system? They can`t honestly say she`s in the OC jail if she`s not, can they, Michael?

CHRISTIAN: I don`t think they are saying today that she`s in the OC county jail. They`re just really not...

GRACE: Well, have they been asked?

CHRISTIAN: ... saying much of anything.

GRACE: Have they been asked directly?

CHRISTIAN: Yes, people have been asking...

GRACE: OK...

CHRISTIAN: ... how this was going to happen...

GRACE: ... just stop!

CHRISTIAN: ... how she`s going to leave.

GRACE: Liz! Liz! Call the jail right now and ask them if tot mom is still housed there. Somebody in the control room pick up the phone because I would like to know if she`s getting special treatment. OK, go ahead, Christian.

CHRISTIAN: Anyway, that`s a possibility, that she could be somewhere else. We`ve also heard a possible scenario that whenever the release time comes -- and we`re probably not going to know ahead of time -- that they could, for example, send out six, eight...

GRACE: Michael!

CHRISTIAN: ... ten, black vans.

GRACE: Michael! Michael! Please.

CHRISTIAN: We don`t know which one she`s in.

GRACE: Stop referring to it like it`s the rapture, that we`re not going to really know when it`s going to happen...

CHRISTIAN: Well, sadly...

GRACE: ... it`s going to happen (INAUDIBLE)...

CHRISTIAN: ... that`s the fact.

GRACE: ... extraordinary event. OK, what did you say about six or seven black SUVs?

CHRISTIAN: That`s another theory. They could send out a bunch of black SUVs or a bunch of different cars at the same time...

GRACE: Who`s they?

CHRISTIAN: ... to fool the media.

GRACE: Who is they?

CHRISTIAN: People wouldn`t know which one to follow.

GRACE: Who`s they?

CHRISTIAN: That the authorities could do that. You know, Orange County Sheriff`s Department has responsibility for her, and they are so nervous -- and I think rightly so -- that somebody might try to do something to this woman while she`s in their jurisdiction, in their care. So they are going to do everything they possibly can to make sure that that doesn`t happen.

Personally, I don`t think we`re going to find out that she`s been released and when that happened until sometime after it`s happened. I just don`t think they`re going to tell us. And what they`ve told us in the past has kind of reiterated that.

GRACE: To Robyn Walensky, WDBO. Robyn, come on. Somebody should just take out Fusian or whatever the name of the bar is now. Come on! Where do you think she`s going to go?

ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: Well, Nancy, first of all, Fusian has been closed.

GRACE: Closed. I know.

WALENSKY: It`s closed. But here`s the bottom line...

GRACE: But they`re all like vampires. You know, you can shoot them with a .38, they get up and they walk again. I don`t know how that happens. It`ll be something else next week.

WALENSKY: Yes. Exactly. These clubs keep reopening, you know, in the midnight hour. Here`s the bottom line, Nancy. I was out this morning at the swamp scene, and there are people showing up still to view the area where Caylee`s little bones were found. And I was sick to my stomach because this area is under water. Now, unlike Mr. Kronk, who took a leak at that area...

GRACE: Can I see some video, Liz, of the spot where Caylee`s remains were found? That`s what Robyn`s talking about right now. Go ahead, Robyn. Repeat.

WALENSKY: Yes, unlike Mr. Kronk, who took a leak in the woods, I actually went to the gas station on the corner to take a break. And the -- there`s a palpable sense of anger in the community. You can really feel it, Nancy. People are angry. They were angry at me. What did I do? Nothing.

But they see the news van from my radio station and you get dirty looks. So I think I agree with what everybody is saying, that there is this really palpable sense of anger. I have seen it up close and personal...

GRACE: OK...

WALENSKY: ... and the department is very worried about her safety and someone doing something crazy.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc, I think that the anger that everyone is feeling over the jury`s incredible verdict is not going to transfer into vigilante justice because people that care about the system, Marc, they care about what is right and what is just, and they don`t like seeing a miscarriage of justice. People of that sentiment, such as yourself and me, don`t condone or believe in vigilante justice. I mean, we don`t.

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: But conversely, Nancy, the only time that vigilante justice ever rears its ugly head is when there is a perception in society that justice has failed to do its job. And that`s exactly where these two things come together.

I agree with everybody. You know, it`s funny. People go into tizzies all the time about -- about innocent people being put in prison. But here we have a guilty person that`s going back into society, and those very same people that raise their flags about the innocent being put in prison are attacking those of us who feel that she is guilty for expressing...

GRACE: But come on, Marc Klaas.

KLAAS: ... that belief.

GRACE: You know what? So what, you or I are attacked? Who`s attacking us? Other media. Who cares what they think? What I care about is this verdict. It was wrong. But now, tot mom is set to walk free, escaping the OC, Orange County, jail in a matter of days. Where will she go? As jurors continue to attempt to cash in, is tot mom set for a million-dollar offer? This as the jury foreperson says he is sick and disgusted at the verdict. Well, you know what? Ditto!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First degree murder, not guilty.

GRACE: A jury delivers a stunning...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve been O.J.`d! How did they miss the duct tape over this child`s mouth, this child`s nose?

GRACE: ... blow to justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People don`t make accidents look like murder!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Caylee run to her mother? Of course she did. Every baby loves their mother.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No person would ever...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did they miss the chloroform searches, the chloroform evidence found in a car that only she had access to?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This young woman sat eyeball to eyeball with them, these jurors, for six weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about the fact that she also searched breaking necks? How about the fact that there was the smell of death in this car?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest. Tot mom set to walk free, this as she is finally scheduled to go under oath and answer the hard questions, something she managed not to do at her jury trial. As two thirds of Americans agree tot mom is, in fact, guilty of the murder of her little girl, tonight another person joins the majority, and that is the jury foreperson. The jury foreman, the jury that acquitted tot mom and let her walk free, says he is, quote, "sick and disgusted at the verdict."

Ellie Jostad, how can that be? And I keep hearing them talking about, We didn`t want to judge the case on emotion. But the law is you are to judge the case to a moral and reasonable certainty. Translation, reasonable head, moral heart.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, this guy -- this is juror number 11, the foreperson. He`s a white male. He`s in his early 30s. He`s a gym teacher, health teacher. And what he told Fox News`s Greta van Susteren is that most of the jurors believed she was guilty, but he said they had to follow the letter of the law. And because the state did not show them how Caylee was killed, they had to acquit Casey Anthony.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Doug Burns, defense attorney, New York, Pilar Prinz, defense attorney, Atlanta, and special guest Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony.

Mark Lippman, I feel like Alice in Wonderland, that everything is turned upside-down! The law says the state doesn`t have to show cause of death or motive! I mean, should you give a gold star to a killer that manages to dispose of the body so it decomposes beyond any determination of cause of death, Mark Lippman?

MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY (via telephone): Well, unfortunately, this jury appears to really want the dots connected for them, and they didn`t get it, from what I`m hearing. And because they didn`t have those dots connected, they figured that they couldn`t do anything other than come back not guilty.

GRACE: Oh! OK, Doug Burns, weigh in.

DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The more frustrating part, Nancy, is that counts two and three were what we lawyers calls lesser included offenses, OK? So even if the jury felt that they couldn`t pull the trigger on first degree murder, the second count was aggravated manslaughter and the third count was aggravated child abuse. So I think the more frustrating message, the most frustrating message, is why couldn`t they have understood their options?

GRACE: Another issue, Pilar Prinz, is I`m just wondering why tot mom was not charged with obstruction of justice, which does carry a greater penalty than lying to police. That`s a misdemeanor. Obstruction is a felony. You can get 14, 15 years for that.

PILAR PRINZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t know the reason for that. It`s a great question. And I wish that we could be in Jeff Ashton`s mind and ask him that. I mean, I do know a lot of information came out during this case that the prosecution could have added other charges. You know, the issue is raised, once they -- once the theory of drowning came out, maybe they could have added other charges. But they didn`t, and we may never know why unless we hear...

GRACE: Well, hey! Hey! Hey!

PRINZ: ... it directly from the state.

GRACE: Hey! Hold on! You can`t just start adding charges in the middle of a trial.

PRINZ: Not in the middle of the trial.

GRACE: It came out in opening statement.

PRINZ: That`s right.

GRACE: The actual drowning theory finally emerged in the middle of opening statement.

PRINZ: But Jeff Ashton stated that they actually heard that theory about a month before the trial started, that they were...

GRACE: Yes, far, far, far...

PRINZ: ... clued in to their...

GRACE: You know, Pilar, to anyone that`s ever handled a death penalty case, or even worked on one, they are years in the making. To start over with new felony counts one month before the trial date is virtually impossible, unless you want to set the whole thing off another two years.

Everybody, we are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest. Tot mom set to walk, as the jury foreperson says he`s sick and disgusted at the not guilty.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?

CINDY ANTHONY: It doesn`t make sense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) of a search for the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a trip down the rabbit hole.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just had a baby killer go out of jail.

CINDY ANTHONY: We need to have something to go on.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey is faced with a problem, Casey Anthony lies.

CASEY ANTHONY: I lied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and you know that everything you told me is a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. Let`s go out to Debbi in Ohio. Hi, Debbi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Something that I -- you know, I`m trying to put together here. I think you`re fabulous. I`ve been watching you long before this case.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many, many years. What I don`t understand -- does the jury -- can they profit after the trial with interviews?

GRACE: Absolutely. Hold on.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was that not...

GRACE: Go ahead, dear. Finish your question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, doesn`t that almost -- you know, we know a lot of our country has quite a bit of greed, and we know there is -- you know, and money`s involved, and once they figured out what trial they were on, you know what I mean, it just seems to me that some of those jurors were just looking at that money down at the end of the line. And what greater way to profit than to acquit her?

GRACE: You know, to Andy Kahan, director of the Houston mayor`s crime victims office. Andy, making money off murder or the off our justice system is nothing new. I mean, the jurors all the way back to the O.J. Simpson case wrote a book and made a ton of money about it. I met some of them many, many years ago, making the TV circuit. I think we were on Geraldo at that time.

But long story short, there`s nothing to stop them. I know in the Scott Peterson trial, there was a stay order on them. There was a cooling- off period, where they couldn`t make any money for a period of time. Weigh in, Andy.

ANDY KAHAN, DIR., HOUSTON MAYOR`S CRIME VICTIMS OFFICE: You know, like it or not, Nancy, Casey Anthony is not convicted. So "Son of Sam" laws do not kick in unless you are convicted. So jurors, prosecutors, defense attorneys, court spectators, they`re all going to be cashing in.

If you go to eBay right now, there are tons of people that are selling Casey Anthony yearbooks with her picture on it, letters from the Anthony family, court documents.

But the reality is, I think the window is closing in on Casey Anthony for making any money on this. When you have the likes of Jerry Springer and Vivid Entertainment that are slamming the door on potential lucrative money deals, that`s speaking volumes.

GRACE: Yes, and not to equate Springer with porn, but Jerry Springer and Vivid Entertainment porn have now retracted offers, or said there is no offer. Even they don`t want tot mom. And Jose Baez`s high-profile PR firm, Paradigm, has given him the boot after representing him just a couple of hours.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Casey (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.

CASEY ANTHONY: Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the doors she`s going to come out of when she is, in fact, released a week from Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There has been no justice for Caylee!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": Cindy sought to see her daughter and asked for a visit, and Casey said no.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I was not satisfied with her answers. It doesn`t make sense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every baby loves their mother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy would never permit Casey to walk away from Caylee.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Perjures herself to save tot mom. She turns down a visit from Cindy?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I told my mom to go home.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Anthony does not want to lower her final value of giving that first interview.

CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything.

GRACE: Tot mom turns down the visit, but takes the money.

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s exactly how I feel, it`s the truth.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That appears to be personal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cindy wanted her daughter to be a mom.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, don`t waste your call to scream and holler at me. I never had control of Casey.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the very latest. Tot mom set to walk free in just a couple of days. This as the jury foreperson, the jury that acquits tot mom, now plunges in with two-thirds of Americans to say tot mom is, in fact, guilty in the death of her only child, little Caylee.

The jury foreperson saying that he is, quote, "sick and disgusted at his own verdict."

Hey, thanks for telling us now. But that`s a day late and a dollar short.

Over the weekend, no further visit attempts from the Anthony family to tot mom. This as she turns her own mother away on Friday night.

You know, wild horses could not drag me away from my mother and father, and I hope my children feel that way about me.

Tot mom turns her mother away from the jailhouse door on Friday night. Refusing to see her.

Joining us right now, Mark Lippman, the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. Reported death threats still pouring in against not only against tot mom, but the Anthony family as well. By phone, by fax, by e-mail.

With us in Orlando, Mark Lippman.

Mark, what about these death threats? Number one, what are George and Cindy doing about that?

And I just want to report right now that a media outlet put out over the weekend that George and Cindy are relaxing pool side somewhere at some beach. That`s not true. They are right there in Orlando. They are not out on some vacation, all right? They just had to relive their granddaughter`s murder. They are not living it up, having pinacoladas at some pool. Mark?

MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re definitely here in Orlando. That was TMZ. They had called me and asked, and I had no idea about it and later confirmed with my clients that they were not anywhere near (INAUDIBLE) Florida.

I spoke with TMZ, they since have taken that picture down.

GRACE: Good. Good for you.

LIPPMAN: With regards to the death threats, with the death threats all we -- we get a whole bunch of different type from anywhere that, I hate you, I hate your client, and therefore I want you all dead, versus some people are indicating they might drive down. The Orange County Sheriff`s Office has been wonderful for my clients, they`ve been taking care of them. And they`re monitoring the situation very closely and they`ll continue to monitor everything that is needed.

GRACE: You know, Mark. I remember if I can think back that far, my very first death threat. It was by fax. It came to the District Attorney`s Office. It was from the Fulton County Jail. OK? All you have to do is read the number on the top of the fax, and you get a pretty good idea of who is sending it.

So somebody faxed me a death threat from the Fulton County Jail. I didn`t read into too much since obviously the person was incarcerated. But your clients are in a much different position.

Mark, tell me if I`m wrong, and I hope that I am. Did tot mom actually turn Cindy, her own mother, away from a visit on Friday night?

LIPPMAN: We don`t know if that was from Cindy or Mr. Baez` advice, but (INAUDIBLE) the appointment and she was denied seeing her daughter.

GRACE: Why is this still going on? Why is she still refusing to see her mother?

LIPPMAN: If we could find that reason out, then we wouldn`t be having this discussion. But at this time, it`s on Mr. Baez` advice to his client not to interact with anybody. And we`re worried about security for her.

GRACE: Right.

LIPPMAN: So as soon as she`s out, we`ll see what happens in the future.

GRACE: With me is Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, but also tonight, Carolyn Robbins Manley, jury consultant, joining us out of Plantation, Florida.

Carolyn, thank you for being with us.

Carolyn, what do you make of the jury foreperson now saying you know what? I give up, I give up, I agree with the rest of America, tot mom is in fact guilty of killing little Caylee, and in fact I`m sick and I`m disgusted at my own verdict.

What`s that all about?

CAROLYN ROBBINS MANLEY, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, here`s what I make of it. We got a little insight from juror number two yesterday, who reported that. And I think they talked about this a little last week. The original vote was 10-2 against first degree murder, and the original vote -- again we don`t know where that came in the 11 hours, the original vote for aggravated manslaughter was at 6-6 split.

So think about that for a minute. We -- these people were not unanimous from the get-go. After six weeks, half of them were convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the lesser charge of murder applied.

So we don`t know where he fit in that subset. The question is, what was it that made those six, if we take the aggravated manslaughter issue first, what made those six switch over? They didn`t stand their ground. So if we look at what they`re saying, they keep saying well, they didn`t know when and where the murder occurred.

GRACE: I have an idea, Carolyn.

MANLEY: It`s all lie.

GRACE: I have an idea of why they switched. Because they are weak. They are weak.

MANLEY: Well, part of that is jury dynamics.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I would look at the little bit of information you have on the jury panel info, but after -- during the process, I recall I would do it alone except for my investigator that I had with me working my cases for the full 10 years I was prosecutor, and we would determine whether a juror was a sheep or a wolf. We --

MANLEY: Well, you can make a guess.

GRACE: Yes.

MANLEY: I mean partly it is the dynamics, but partly, they are telling us that the circumstantial evidence didn`t do it for them, and what I would suggest is that the prosecution didn`t give them circumstantial evidence 101. Meaning, you know, you didn`t have to know that.

And those six jurors who you`re calling sheep, who did not stand their ground, needed more of the analogies, like, hey, you get up in the morning, you see it`s wet on the ground, the newspaper`s got dew on it, your car is wet, what happened? It rained.

Did you see it happen? No. Do you know when? Do you know exactly what went on? Well, that`s the kind of thing that I think the prosecution needed to give those six jurors to hold their ground.

GRACE: And it`s their words -- Carolyn, you don`t have to see the storm to know it rained.

To Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. It`s very disturbing to any of us that have been in the system, that have devoted our lives to justice, to see, A, this verdict, and B, the foreperson who doesn`t want to be identified say he`s sick and disgusted at his own verdict? This as tot mom set to walk to seven-figure dollar offers when she gets out?

PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: It was difficult. You know, Nancy, just the week before, I remember we`re saying I have faith in the system and for those of us like you who have served in the system, when you see an injustice like this, it breaks your heart.

I have to say this one first. And it`s not to flatter you, Nancy, but to fight as hard as you do for children who can`t be heard now because of things such as this, there`s not enough credit that goes to you for this. So stay the course, and I appreciate what you do. But to the jury in this issue --

GRACE: Listen, Paul Penzone, I`m not worried about some lawyer or some TV person sitting up on Park Avenue in New York City has to say about me. That`s not my concern. My concern is the miscarriage of justice. And now the jurors, one after the next, claiming, oh, yes, we thought she did it, and now give me some money.

PENZONE: And I appreciate that so much about you. I just -- I have a very difficult time, first of all, with the previous person said about understanding that circumstantial evidence is valuable. Additionally, just 10 hours to change your mind after that trial? I don`t know how it occurred.

GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live when we come back. But very quickly, a case alert. The disappearance of 27-year-old Lauren Giddings, Mercer University law student. A homicide. Cops find her torso outside her apartment. She just graduated law school, the world before her.

Unreleased surveillance confirms the last sighting at a local restaurant the night she vanishes.

Please help us. Call Crimestoppers if you have info, 877-68-CRIME.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: State of Florida vs. Casey Anthony.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: This is not a murder case.

CASEY ANTHONY: They`re going to pass judgments about something that they don`t know.

CINDY ANTHONY: I can`t look at my granddaughter without getting upset.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I believe I failed her.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Six days away and counting from Casey Anthony`s release from the Orange County Jail.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We now know that she`s going to be out of jail next Sunday.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The fallout from last week`s not guilty verdict --

CROWD: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It continues. The husband of juror number 12 says his wife has gone into hiding, literally.

CASEY ANTHONY: Sucks for them.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The 60-year-old woman fears for her safety.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey`s parents --

CINDY ANTHONY: I have no idea who had -- who took Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: -- have gotten at least a half a dozen death threats.

G. ANTHONY: I have a belief in my daughter, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Since her daughter was acquitted, there are concerns about her safety.

CASEY ANTHONY: Don`t worry.

G. ANTHONY: It`s not about the truth. It`s about what you can convince a jury of.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey and Cindy have always had --

CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You`re not telling me where she`s at.

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sort of typical, tumultuous, but close relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The family dynamic is key here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think anyone is ever going to know what happened.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County courthouse and taking your calls. But this is not the first time someone believed by the majority of America to be guilty and has walked free. Of course, Orenthal James Simpson, can`t get around that. He lived in a beautiful mansion in L.A., then in Florida, in Miami. Dated a Niccole Brown lookalike. A model.

Of course, he ended up in the Lovelock Correctional Center. Then there is Michael Jackson on the child molestation charges. He lived the high life for while, but we know his sad ending.

Phil Spector lived in Pyrenees Castle, Alhambra, after his not guilty. He was retried and ended up in Corcoran Penitentiary. Robert Blake, who many believe killed his -- the mother of his child, Bonny Lee Bakley, still lives to this day in Hidden Hills, his California home, basically a mansion.

And then, of course, Robert Durst, who obviously beheaded his next- door neighbor, a senior citizen. That head was found floating in a nearby river. He`s free today.

The list goes on. And now tot mom can be added to that list.

We are taking your calls amidst a poll that two-thirds of America believes tot mom guilty. And today the stunning development that the foreperson of the tot mom jury that acquitted her agrees and says he`s sick and disgusted at his own verdict.

We are taking your calls. To Jennifer in Virginia, hi, Jennifer, what`s your question?

JENNIFER, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. My question is, according to the jury foreman, many of these jurors believed that Casey did kill Caylee. So why would they set her free? And Nancy, what`s going to happen if this woman gets out and gets pregnant again and has another child?

GRACE: Well, I hope you`re sitting down, Jennifer. In fact, maybe you should lay down. She has already stated that she wants to have children. More children, possibly adopt one. She wants to adopt one from Ireland, quote, "with Irish accent and all." So that`s in the making.

Let`s go to Wendy Walsh. Dr. Wendy Walsh, psychologist and expert on momlogic.com. We need a shrink, Wendy. Why are they all now saying yes, I`m sick at the verdict. Hey. You`re the one that rendered the verdict.

WENDY WALSH, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST, EXPERT ON MOMLOGIC.COM: You know, I think that they don`t understand the difference between reasonable doubt and a reason to doubt. And just like you said, Nancy, just because you didn`t see the rain falling doesn`t mean the road isn`t wet.

So this juror -- all these jurors, they tended to be I think too many sheep and I also was concerned about what your other guest said. Such a short time to deliberate. Something like this takes days, weeks. You know, to do it in such a short period of time tells me that they just wanted to get out of there and maybe even make their money.

GRACE: Well, we know one juror had a cruise scheduled for the 7th. And don`t want to interfere with the cruise.

WALSH: No. Wouldn`t want to.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, we also are hearing reports that tot mom is rejecting her family visits, including her own mother, because Baez is blocking it.

Now, Ellie, when the visits would be recorded under Sunshine Act in Florida, everything, there`s no secret proceedings, you might be able to explain it, although I would still want to see my mom and dad whether we talked about the trial or not. But the trial is over. So why no visits?

And what do we know about Baez -- defense attorney Jose Baez, who I might add was spotted propped up in first class over the weekend flying to New York. I don`t even want to wonder what engagement he was attending in New York.

But, Ellie, why -- do we know about Baez blocking the visits? And why now? The trial is over.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, George and Cindy haven`t gone to the jail to see her, or they haven`t been allowed in to see her since August 14th, 2008. They knew all those visits were being made public. It sounds to me, and what we`re hearing from her attorney is that they believe that it`s the defense team, not Casey Anthony who`s turning down these visits.

But Casey Anthony herself is asked, do you want to accept this visit? And I think if she wanted to, she could ignore her attorney`s advice and see her mom if she wanted to do that.

GRACE: She absolutely could, Ellie.

Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session," I`ve got the answer. The Orange County jail says she is still housed there.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": OK. Well, I believe them, if that`s what they say, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, that`s what they`re saying. And -- but you know, your theory is absolutely correct. That is a strategy a lot of people hadn`t thought of yet. That she could actually be placed like in the night or the early morning hours at another jailhouse until the time of her release.

CHRISTIAN: Apparently that has been done at the past -- in the past from the Orange County jail. I`ve heard. It wouldn`t surprise me. It`s actually a pretty good strategy. I certainly take them at their word if they say that she`s there now. We just don`t know whether she`s still going to be there on Sunday.

GRACE: And Robyn Walensky, WDBO, it`s almost time for tot mom to finally answer some hard questions. She is going under oath on Tuesday. In less than five business days she`s going under oath. How`s that going to work, Robyn Walensky? And will we be able to see her answers?

ROBYN WALENSKY, REPORTER, WDBO: These are great questions. This is the Zanny matter of the real Zenaida Gonzalez is suing her civilly because apparently the real Zenaida Gonzalez from Orlando has not been able to work. So it`s going to be really interesting to see if she`s here for the deposition or if they have to go out of state to get her testimony.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the case of the state of Florida versus Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to find the truth.

PERRY: The defendant has entered a plea of not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Caylee Marie Anthony, that`s the victim in this case.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I want to alert you to a missing 4-month-old baby.

Out to Heather Lynn Peters, staff reporter, "Muskegon Chronicle." What do we know about baby Kate?

Hold on. To Matt Zarrell. Weigh in, Matt.

MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: Still looking for the whereabouts of Sean Phillips the day of the abduction between the hours of 1:00 and 4:00 p.m. He was spotted at a Wendy`s just after 1:00 just after the abduction.

He went inside the store. There was no sign of baby Kate with him. The surveillance video at the Wendy`s was not working at the time. He was also seen during those hours at an apartment complex in the area. He was arrested at his parent`s home a short time later.

But Nancy he is not cooperating with cops. The only person he talked to was baby Kate`s mother who he allegedly told that baby Kate is still alive.

GRACE: Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true that he was set to take a DNA test that day? He`s also set also set to be deployed to Afghanistan and the mom thought maybe she could get some child support from his paycheck while he was gone.

ZARRELL: Yes, Nancy. That`s correct. But there are reports that he was questioning the paternity of the baby, whether he was actually the father. And that`s allegedly the argument they were having in the car when the baby was kidnapped.

GRACE: Everyone, the tip line for baby Kate is 231-869-5858.

Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Matthew Webber, 23, Kalamazoo, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation. Youngest sergeant in Michigan National Guard. Left studies at Western Michigan University to serve. A four-sport athlete. Loved fishing. Got hooked when he caught his first bass at age 4. Leaves behind parents Alice and James, stepparents Karen and Vince, brothers Brandon, Andy and Josh.

Matthew Webber, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special good night from Georgia and Virginia friends of the show. There they are. Mike, Ann, Casey, Mary, Michael, Brittany, and Tee.

Aren`t they beautiful?

And happy birthday to Fayetteville`s Chuck Lynch. After a long career in printing, he loves retirement with beautiful wife Ann, trimming his blueberries, tomatoes and apple tree. Three grown children, six grands.

Happy birthday, Chuck Lynch.

And tonight happy birthday to New York friend of the show Michael McFadden. A funeral executive. Loves boating on the Hudson. What a handsome young man.

Our thoughts and prayers to Miyun in the fight of a lifetime. Battling sickle cell. Now on a ventilator.

Miyun, stay strong.

Everyone, I want to thank you for being with us. And a special get well to Sheeba.

Sheeba, we miss you.

Everyone, again, thank you. See you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END