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Casey Cops Meet the Press; The Mind of Casey Anthony; `I Married a Mobster`
Aired July 12, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, cops in the Casey Anthony case grilled by the media today. Meanwhile jurors indicate they were suspicious of George Anthony`s role in Caylee`s disappearance. Joy will have the latest.
Then, forensic psychiatrist Michael Welner compares Casey`s acquittal to other high-profile female criminal cases.
Plus infamous mobster Whitey Bulger had a woman by his side for 16 years while he was on the run. Joy talks to the stars of the docu-series, "I Married a Mobster" about life with a fugitive.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Police investigators in the Casey Anthony case held a press conference today to address outstanding questions from the media. They also had the chance to express their frustration with the outcome of the case and with Casey. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YURI MELICH, LEAD INVESTIGATOR IN CASEY ANTHONY CASE: She never said it was an accident. That would have been her opportunity to say so had it been, and obviously we give them -- we give them the ability to explain their actions, but they always can come up and say this is what happened.
I was just -- even to this day I`m still surprised that she just didn`t come off it. She wouldn`t tell us the truth. That`s all we were after was the truth. That day this whole thing could have been ended had we known the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here to talk about this and more about the case again are Ashleigh Banfield, ABC News correspondent; Pat Brown, CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency and the author of "The Profiler: my life hunting serial killers and psychopaths"; and Gil Alba, former NYPD detective and founder of Alba Investigations.
Ok. Ashleigh, the investigators may respect the verdict, but they don`t seem too happy with it, do they?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: No and nor should they be. They put three years of their lives into this. I was actually sitting in the courtroom when that verdict came down, and I turned around, behind me was Yuri Melich, the lead detective on the case.
He just looked dashed, is the best word I could put to him. Just really devastated. And I think just shocked, too. I don`t think they ever expected that the verdict would come down this way.
BEHAR: Really? They did seem shocked. A lot of people are upset, Gil, with the verdict as you know. Do you think that these investigators felt that they had to have this press conference to kind of like defend themselves against all of these allegations against them? That they didn`t do their job, et cetera?
GIL ALBA, FOUNDER, ALBA INVESTIGATIONS: No. I think the opposite of that. I think they were showing, first of all, frustration with the outcome of the case. The fact that they had the confidence in the case, that they did everything possible in that case. So they know they did everything. They feel good about themselves that they did everything.
But you know, the question is what happened. Maybe they turned the case over to the D.A., maybe they`re saying the D.A. didn`t do enough or something if that`s the case.
BEHAR: Now, one tidbit to come out this, Cindy Anthony may face perjury charges for allegedly lying about the computer searches for "chloroform". Where`s that going to go? I`ll ask you.
ALBA: I think they`re going to look at it anyway because she was at work when that happened on the computer. She didn`t know how to spell "chloroform". Neither do I, by the way. So I`ll leave that up to you.
BEHAR: Ok.
BANFIELD: I actually can add to this, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok --
BANFIELD: It`s not going to happen. It`s absolutely not going to happen.
BEHAR: No? Why not?
BANFIELD: Well, for a number of reasons. Number one, my source inside the state attorney`s offices says "No", that`s the biggest part right now. They`re the only ones who would launch that.
The other thing is it`s extraordinarily hard to prove that. When Cindy was on the stand, she said things like I believe so, I think so. You have to prove intent. There was that one time I think when she made a definitive statement.
But look, they don`t like this case. They`re not happy with this. This is not about revenge at this point. And going after that kind of a charge after Cindy at this point would seem like it might be kind of angry potatoes. And they`re not going for it at this point.
BEHAR: It`s interesting though what she`s saying, isn`t it, Gil?
ALBA: Yes.
BEHAR: She`s saying that Cindy Anthony was saying it may have been, it could have been. And yet she seemed to be trying to protect her daughter from the electric chair, whatever they`re using these days.
ALBA: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: So it could be that Jose Baez told Cindy this is how you say it so they won`t get you on perjury. Do you think that`s possible.
ALBA: There`s no doubt about that. But you know, did you see when she walked off after testifying? She walked over and said "I love you" to Casey? And she just looked away like, you know, in disgust.
BEHAR: The girl?
ALBA: Yes, like I don`t even want to bother with you?
BEHAR: She doesn`t want to talk to her now.
ALBA: Doesn`t want to talk to the mother or anything else. So, it`s frustrating for the family.
BEHAR: Well, you know, she owes her mother if you ask me.
ALBA: Oh, thank you.
BEHAR: Now Sergeant John Allen said that George Anthony was never a suspect during the investigation. Pat, did that surprise you?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: No because that should absolutely be true Joy. I mean he wasn`t. She -- Casey was the only suspect.
I think what`s happening with this police conference is we`re being politically correct right now. And everybody`s ignoring the elephant in the room which is the jury system which has become an abomination, it really has.
I mean let`s look at it. Let`s say you were in college and you`re doing your Masters` thesis or your dissertation for your PhD. Would you go down to the bus stop and get 12 people to come in with no notice and say, look, why don`t you judge whether my PhD dissertation is any good? We wouldn`t do that in any other business. They get totally unqualified, uneducated people.
BEHAR: So what do you want to have, professional jurors? Is that what you`re driving at?
BROWN: We need to start looking at countries that have judge systems or some professional jury system because we cannot continue to put people in there --
ALBA: I agree with the forum.
BANFIELD: You know what? I got weigh in here only because I have been to a lot of those countries where they just bag you with a black hood and take you out of your house for about four five years --
BROWN: I`m not talking about that kind -- you`re talking to the extreme.
BANFIELD: But there are other systems out there that have corrupt judges. And this is one of the best democracies in the world. I am a new citizen, so I`m one of the most biased out there. But for anybody who goes after jurors, I have to take umbrage with that because they were in there for two and a half months, sequestered away from their family. And it`s hard -- it`s a hard job to do this.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I agree that. I`m not going after the jurors. I`m -- wait a minute --
(CROSSTALK)
ALBA: It`s too late anyway.
BEHAR: One at a time, please.
BROWN: I`m going after the jury system.
ALBA: It`s already too late. It`s too late. They voted their way, and that`s the way it goes. I mean, is the jury -- you know, I don`t even think they knew about the case. They were interviewed, they didn`t know about the case. Can you imagine never hearing about -- I know.
BEHAR: Good. They`re not supposed to know so they get there --
ALBA: I know. But I mean, you know, where are they that you don`t know about the case?
BROWN: Exactly. So how many people lied --
BANFIELD: Everybody needs to remember -- you know, I spent ten hours a day in that courtroom. And I have to produce a two-minute piece at the end of the day. Ten hours of testimony, two minutes of broadcasting. It is a different aspect in a courtroom. And I just wish more people would understand.
The jury gets it all, we get a little. So it`s not fair of us to judge them.
BROWN: I`m not judging the jury. I`m judging the jury system. That`s what I keep saying. It`s the fact the jurors may be doing the best they can but these are people that you pull off the street. They don`t have the background to do it. They don`t understand --
BEHAR: Ok. Let`s not get hung up on this.
I want to move on. The jury foreperson who hid his identity told Greta Van Susteren last night that part of the reason they acquitted Casey Anthony was because George Anthony seemed suspicious.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JURY FOREPERSON IN CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: That was not a discussion of ours. We got into the deliberation as far as the sexual abuse. What was - - was George Anthony`s actions and his demeanor and, you know, the way that he presented some things up there on the stand.
He had very selective memory for me. That in itself was something that I always kept in the back of my mind for every time that he got up there, I was just kind of on guard for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: So you were there as you said during the trial. Did George seem to have selective memory, or did he seem credible.
BANFIELD: I was interested to hear that. That`s actually the words that Jose Baez used in his closing, I believe it was "selective memory". I think for George`s sake, the last three years of what`s he`s been through, he seems like a very -- I hate to say this -- like a crafted man. Almost like he`s lost himself and now he`s having to act like himself when he gets on the stand.
And I can see why they saw that. I can see why they saw a man who now is very used to being on the stand after that many pre-trial hearings. And hates the defense attorney who`s going after him. So I think they saw that acrimony.
BEHAR: Well Pat, could George`s so-called selective memory have been deliberate on his part?
BROWN: It could be deliberate. This is, again, the jury was not looking at Casey Anthony`s selective memory and all the evidence that pointed direction. It`s like they`re trying George instead of Casey. And I understand that they may be confused by that but that`s the whole problem. They`re doing their best but they`re not doing their best enough.
BEHAR: She never took the stand so I guess they were at loss in that way. They were at a disadvantage.
BROWN: They had evidence. There was a massive amount of evidence in this case. This was one of the best circumstantial cases I`ve ever seen. And this is the problem -- if you can`t convict somebody on this much circumstantial evidence then we`ve got a problem with our jury system. We`re going to see this play out over and over again. And we do see it play out over and over again.
(CROSSTALK)
ALBA: Well, I did see the jurors.
BANFIELD: I think that`s unfair. There was lots of circumstantial evidence, but there was a lot missing, as well. There was a lot missing when it came to premeditated or felony murder. And even manslaughter and those aggravated child abuse charges.
It was really hard with the evidence that was given. And it was hard to find that evidence that something super nefarious happened --
BROWN: I disagree --
BANFIELD: That these jurors had to find.
BROWN: I disagree because the duct tape over the face was the biggest piece of evidence there ever was along with all the other things to go with it --
BANFIELD: It wasn`t proven to have been put on the face. All sorts of people did conjecture about that.
BROWN: What? It just jumped on her face? How did it get there?
BANFIELD: It wasn`t on her face. No, did you see the photographs? I saw the photographs, not the blurred one that everybody on TV saw. I saw the real ones. Listen, there were lots of different ways -- I`m not suggesting this is my opinion.
What I`m saying is there are plausible explanations --
ALBA: Does Ashleigh think she`s innocent.
BEHAR: Ashleigh, did you think at the end of the day that she was not guilty, Ashleigh?
BANFIELD: Well, there`s a difference between not guilty and innocent, isn`t there?
BEHAR: Yes, not guilty.
BANFIELD: What I can tell you as a correspondent of ABC News, I can tell you that I did see a number of different ways that this story could have played out. And I can see how some people could arrive at one version and other people could have arrived at another version.
Those jurors arrived at a version that very few people like. But it doesn`t mean that our system didn`t work. Just because a verdict is unpopular does not mean that justice didn`t play out.
BEHAR: Right. Well, that seems to be the conventional wisdom at the moment with people who are looking at it objectively, I think.
ALBA: Yes.
BEHAR: The system worked and she -- but you know, Ashleigh, one more question, then I have to go.
ALBA: Yes go ahead.
BEHAR: Baez confirmed that Casey`s leaving town as soon as she gets out of jail. He doesn`t say where she`s going. Where do you think she`ll go?
BANFIELD: Oh.
BEHAR: And will she have to wear a disguise or get plastic surgery, Ashleigh?
BANFIELD: Yes there are some reports out there that that`s what she`s going do. I had a long conversation with Jose Baez last night. There was no discussion of that at all. But he is not saying boo about where she`s going to go, and it`s probably the best thing for his client because there is a clear and present danger for her security. People want blood. There is blood lust.
BEHAR: Yes, I know. Ok thanks, everyone, very much.
We`ll have more on the Casey Anthony case when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: It`s been one full week since Casey Anthony was acquitted of murdering her daughter Caylee. But believe it or not, every day I have more and more questions about this case. So today I want to talk to one of the nation`s top psychiatrists to try to get some answers.
Here now is Dr. Michael Welner, Chairman of the Forensic Panel and associate professor of psychiatry at the NYU School of Medicine. Welcome to the show, I love your qualifications.
DR. MICHAEL WELNER, CHAIRMAN, THE FORENSIC PANEL: Thank you. NYU is a great school.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Ok, yes.
WELNER: And the Forensic Panel is wonderful.
BEHAR: I mean, I have so many things that are still bugging me. Like this is going to break someone reminds me that Baez -- he opened his statements with an accusation. The father molested her and da, da, da. Shouldn`t he be accountable for that accusation?
How come a defense attorney can just throw something out like that and get away with it? I mean it doesn`t seem right.
WELNER: Well, this brings to mind the question that people had of why was she acquitted? Why was she found not guilty and then people would come back and say you have to create reasonable doubt.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: How do you -- how do you create reasonable doubt? Three ways: taking the prosecutors off the high road by doing risky things, forensic science, taking chances. Two, creating distractions. Taking people`s attention off the bottom line issue so that they`re thinking about odors and aromas and -- and this and that.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: And the third is theater. Theater, and that`s part of the theater, whether it`s Baez or whether its Johnnie Cochran saying it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh yes.
WELNER: -- you know, Hitler, invoking Hitler. So -- so theater is an essential part of arguments.
BEHAR: And poetry.
WELNER: And poetry, whatever it takes. So he`s doing his job.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: He`s doing his job. Some people may feel that it`s unorthodox, but that`s what he`s supposed to do.
BEHAR: Well then, you know what, why doesn`t Cindy Anthony -- not Cindy -- George Anthony sue him? Why not sue the defense attorney? You threw that out, you make me look like a child molester when I don`t know if you are or not -- I`m sure he would deny it, there`s no proof. Why can sue him from putting that out there. He`s ruined that man`s reputation.
WELNER: You know, of course, George is going to wrestle with these things. But one of the things that he`ll confront is if there`s a lot of pain associated with this case, whether it`s his pain, whether it`s others` pain, whether it`s even Casey Anthony, they`ll get more mileage by putting it behind them as far and as fast as they can.
BEHAR: Ok, I figured that.
Ok. Now let`s talk about Casey. Have you ever seen this type of behavior before in other people? What you observed in this particular girl?
WELNER: Well, mothers who kill their children, it`s an unusual event, but it happens. Sometimes it happens in a setting of confrontation. And sometimes, if we believe Casey Anthony and it happened in an accident, that the child died, the level of regret, the level of grief, the level of guilt, the level of emotion --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: Is obvious for all to see. I remember a case in which --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And wait, we didn`t see that.
WELNER: And what we saw --
BEHAR: We didn`t see that.
WELNER: -- was 30 days of the police not being called and hot body contests and shacking up with a boyfriend. And if she didn`t have parents to raise concerns with her, she might never have brought it to anyone`s attention. Why did she bring it in the first place is because her parents were pressuring her.
So what we saw was indifference, detachment, and detachment and alienation is what you see from parents who kill their children who were anticipating doing it and getting to that place where they decided to finally go forward with it. And they were comfortable with a decision before so they were comfortable with the decision after.
BEHAR: So I mean -- the girl was found not guilty. But your implication is that it was premeditated.
WELNER: Never mind what I think. Never mind if I think she`s guilty. I`ll tell you what the problem is.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: The fantasy of mothers to kill their children is a lot more common than we recognize. I will tell you there are thousands of women in the United States who have that fantasy, and they`re horrified by it so they don`t do it.
But what they see --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thank God.
WELNER: Joy, they believe she`s guilty. And they recognize that she was not held accountable. And so that barrier --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Because they have those fantasies themselves. Is that what you`re saying?
WELNER: No, no, no. They have those fantasies, they recognize -- they recognize that she`s guilty. But the message to them is that a woman who kills her child -- the concept is so unusual --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: -- unfathomable to a jury that if they aren`t absolutely positively beyond, beyond a reasonable doubt that they`ll acquit her. And the idea that they could do it and not be held accountable is something for them to think about. It becomes an option. How many people consider the unthinkable because they think maybe I won`t be held accountable? Maybe won`t people believe that it`s possible --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, yes. A lot of people, I think.
Ok, now these other cases like Andrea Yates. That woman killed her five children by drowning them. And she was found not guilty by reason of insanity. Do you think that you have to be insane to kill your children?
WELNER: There are women who kill their children who are laboring under mental illness. There are women who kill their children who are drug addicted, and who may be depressed but who are overwhelmed. They can`t bear. And even in the Yates case, there was a lot of conflict between her and her husband.
BEHAR: Right.
WELNER: And she killed her children as soon as he withdrew the support of his mother saying, you know, it`s time for you to take care of these kids on your own. Mother leaves, boom. First opportunity that Andrea`s alone with them, she drowns the children.
And then you have cases like Susan Smith.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: And others who --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Opportunistic.
WELNER: Well, they -- they -- they feel that it is an opportunity for them to perhaps have a different life.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: And they see their children as a hindrance.
Now, of course, what Casey Anthony`s motivation has been is a mystery. And that`s why we don`t really know what happened.
BEHAR: We don`t know. We don`t know.
WELNER: But we know that she said she was there and she was comfortable with the idea -- consider this -- of going off and living her life as if nothing was changed while maggots were eating the flesh of her child.
BEHAR: Ok. On that note, we`ll take a break. We`ll have more with Dr. Welner in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with noted psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner. You know, Doctor, there was a motion filed to release this video of Casey where she`s reacting when she learned that the child`s remains were found. She doubles over, she hyperventilates, she becomes hysterical before she knows that it`s Caylee. A lot of people saying that suggests guilt. What do you say?
WELNER: You can`t tell.
BEHAR: You can`t tell?
WELNER: You can`t tell. You just can`t tell. Those are the kinds of things that an evaluation actually sits down -- in an evaluation, you sit down with someone, you go through a video, and you say can we talk about this, and what were you thinking then? And what were you thinking them.
Look, I`m the first person to point out --
BEHAR: But she thought that the kid -- she says that the child died by accident. So then what was she so upset about when they found the remains? Ah.
WELNER: Well, I`m with you on that. How can you not --
BEHAR: That`s very suspicious.
WELNER: You know, again, I had mentioned before about this whole maggot issue. The attachment of a caring mother, accident even on purpose to a child, burial, respect, not discarding like yesterday`s trash, that`s the detachment. That`s the indifference. It isn`t just the idea of whether she killed the child or not. She seems to be comfortable having signed on to the account that she simply discarded this child.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: And that`s unsettling.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: At the very least.
BEHAR: It makes me think about movies that I`ve seen where people are doing ethnic cleansing or things like that, where they just willy-nilly will shoot somebody, shoot the whole family, have no affect whatsoever, go along, have no guilt.
It`s interesting that some -- a whole country, whole groups of people could be in that kind of lacking in empathy, sort of a psychotic break with themselves.
WELNER: Well, you`re on to something. What you`re tapping into is the notion that these people will kill complete strangers.
BEHAR: Yes.
WELNER: Genocidalyists (ph) and ethnic cleansers, they cease to look at them as people. They detach. And for some people who you would never expect to kill, they`re only able to kill because they detach from the victim.
BEHAR: Right.
Do you think that her relationship with her parents could ever be repaired? She doesn`t seem to want to talk to her mother at all. And as I said before, her mother really helped her because her mother gave that whole cock and bull story about the -- about the chloroform that she was looking into it, and they now say the mother was at work that day.
WELNER: Here`s the only thing that someone who hasn`t examined Casey Anthony can say. How much does attachment matter to her? Let`s say that she didn`t --
BEHAR: Exactly, apropos of the conversation --
WELNER: Let`s say she didn`t kill Caylee. Even if she didn`t kill her, if attachment is so unimportant to her that she could be indifferent without her, how important indeed is her attachment to her parents?
BEHAR: So what`s the future for this girl? She can`t attach to anybody, it sounds like. She can`t attach to another man. God forbid she has another child, she won`t be able to attach to another child.
WELNER: Well, there are plenty of people who have attachment problems and they find a way because they get their needs met and they go about their life and she has to go on. She`s going to be reminded of this because of a public sense of suspicion. In a way it`s like O.J., only she doesn`t have O.J.`s support, she doesn`t have O.J.`s charm. She doesn`t have O.J.`s connections. She doesn`t have O.J.`s history.
BEHAR: Doesn`t have the celebrity.
WELNER: Oh, she has a perverse kind of celebrity. But she doesn`t have the personal qualities of people and hangers on who will shield her. So she`s going to find and have to find a way to start a life where her past won`t come to her because she`s so visible and people are aware of where she`s been.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you so much. You`re always a pleasure to have on and always so interesting.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Lately I noticed there are a lot of TV shows about the mob these days, and they`re all hits. Whoa! One of the new series is called "I Married a Mobster," on Investigation Discovery Channel. Let`s look at it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was no income coming anymore. There was no money really set aside for me to pick up the pieces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The myth of the mob taking care of their people when they go to prison, taking care of the families, it`s not true. People go to jail and the families are left to suffer on the street.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I literally started getting the bills coming in, finding everything defaulting, and now I had to go back to work. I went strictly from here to here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Joining me now are Cheryl Caruso, Linda Scarpa, and Dion Nicosia. Welcome, ladies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
BEHAR: So you know, let me start with this guy Whitey Bulger. Have you ever heard of him? OK, he`s an Irish mobster, I guess. He was just arrested. And he served -- he was on the run for 16 years, and his girlfriend, Catherine Grieg, she stayed with him on the run all those years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
BEHAR: So you were married to a mobster. Would you stay with him on the run all those years? That seems above and beyond the call of duty.
CHERYL CARUSO, FEATURED ON "I MARRIED A MOBSTER": Me personally, no. Because I have a family, friends, children. So why would I go on a run? I mean, I don`t know her story, I don`t know who she is. So I don`t know why --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I don`t know her either. But she was like Bonnie and Clyde. They were out there. Would you have done that?
DION NICOSIA, FEATURED ON "I MARRIED A MOBSTER": Heck no.
BEHAR: No? Why not, why not?
NICOSIA: Why not, because that is just going to lead you eventually probably right to prison along with him.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She may also be convicted. Yes. She was so in love with him, though. It breaks your heart. Whatever.
NICOSIA: Yeah.
BEHAR: But she stayed with him, maybe she was scared.
NICOSIA: Maybe she was whipped.
CARUSO: That`s true too. You don`t know, you don`t know until you`re really in that position what you`re going to do. So, I, it`s not my thing.
BEHAR: I watched the first episode -- I`ll get to the rest of you in a second, but let me talk to Cheryl for a second, because you were married to Phil "Philly" Caruso. Is he Phil or Philly?
CARUSO: I call him Phil, honey, whatever. Well, not anymore. But Phil.
BEHAR: You`re not married to him anymore?
CARUSO: No, we divorced quite a while ago.
BEHAR: Was he a big-time mobster or small potatoes?
CARUSO: Honestly, I didn`t even know he was a mobster until he actually went away to prison. So I couldn`t really tell you too much what type of mobster he was or how he was involved with the mob. I was there the day he was sentenced to prison, and that`s how I found out what he did.
BEHAR: So no clue -- like, he would cut his meat with a switchblade?
CARUSO: No, no, no, no. No, no, no. He was a businessman. He owned a printing company. I went to his office. He was -- you know, right here in Manhattan. So I`ve been all around that, you know, I`ve seen his degrees --
BEHAR: Did you ever suspect anything? Nothing?
CARUSO: No. He did have -- you know, what I call influential friends that he would tell me, yes, they were but years ago but now they`re all businessmen. So I just went with the flow and never asked any questions. I never had any reason to because he went to work every day and came home in the evenings.
BEHAR: So when he went to jail, you got screwed financially, did you not?
CARUSO: I got screwed all over. Well, yeah.
BEHAR: Not exactly.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Not anymore. He was gone.
CARUSO: He was gone but my whole world--
BEHAR: Did he leave you any money?
CARUSO: No, I wound up more or less finding myself completely in debt. I didn`t have anything. I didn`t have any money. I had my two daughters, and I didn`t really rely on it or ask for it in the past because whenever I wanted it, it was, here you go, how much do you need. So it wasn`t a situation where I had to worry about having a savings account, a bank account, a checking account. He took care of primarily everything for me.
BEHAR: I know. Where was the money?
CARUSO: In his pocket. In his sock. That`s what he --
BEHAR: What did he go up for?
CARUSO: He went up for organized crime, racketeering, possession of a deadly weapon, and narcotics.
BEHAR: OK. There`s a lot of money to be made in narcotics. He didn`t leave you any money?
CARUSO: No. As a matter of fact --
BEHAR: Isn`t that odd? Girls, you know this story, too. Isn`t it odd for the guy to go jail and not leave any money for the family?
NICOSIA: Well -- well, you know what, with me, there was -- there was no more money left.
CARUSO: Yes. I think--
(CROSSTALK)
NICOSIA: It`s all gone.
BEHAR: No more money left?
NICOSIA: No more money left. The lawyers eat it up.
CARUSO: Yes. I think that`s primarily what happened. All the money that he had saved and invested away, probably for me or a situation like that, he was now serving a life sentence. So he probably -- I`m sure he invested most of it into the attorneys.
BEHAR: Now, in the show, he -- he wanted to come back to you after jail, but you didn`t want to do that anymore. What happened? Did you meet somebody else?
CARUSO: No. No, no, no. What happened is I would have given him the opportunity to get back together with me, I just wanted to have a little time. Because he`s been away for so many years. And now I came back and picked up all the pieces by myself one day. After he went away to prison, I had to go home, figure out all the bills, take care of my two kids. You know, get jobs, because now I had to pay for everything. And finding out I`m in so much debt, my house is in foreclosure. I had to rebuild and re- establish myself. So I wasn`t going to allow this person who just got out of prison come now back into my world and say, no problem, let me take back over again. I`m not going to do --
BEHAR: I saw you had three jobs at that point.
CARUSO: Yes. I --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Sounds like me.
CARUSO: Yes. That`s what -- but you do what you have to do to make survival. That`s bottom line.
BEHAR: OK, now, Dion, you married Angelo Nicosia who the FBI -- how do you say it, Nicosia?
NICOSIA: No, Nicosia.
BEHAR: I`m sorry, Nicosia, who the FBI says was a reputed member of the Genovese family.
NICOSIA: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Did you know what your husband did when you married him? She says she didn`t know.
NICOSIA: I knew that my husband was very -- he was very well connected. You know, in that world. But after that, that`s it. That`s what I knew, he was well connected.
BEHAR: So how did you feel about that? That he was well connected? That -- was there like a little clue there that something-something?
NICOSIA: You know, to be honest, it was nice, you know, because it is nice -- you know, nice to be well connected. To -- you know --
BEHAR: You liked it.
NICOSIA: This and that --
BEHAR: You enjoyed it?
NICOSIA: Yes, I did. I enjoyed it. It was fun -- it was fun. Easy for me.
BEHAR: Let me ask you, did you experience any kind of racism when you came into the mob family?
NICOSIA: To be honest, no.
BEHAR: You did not?
NICOSIA: No.
BEHAR: Were you surprised?
NICOSIA: Yes. But no, not at all. I mean, they were all just very - - they were just wonderful to me.
BEHAR: Really?
NICOSIA: Yes. They were really great, you know. They were really nice men.
BEHAR: They were nice men.
NICOSIA: Yes. You know --
BEHAR: The little thing, the murders, that`s another thing.
NICOSIA: Yes, right.
BEHAR: Other than that.
NICOSIA: Yes. Right, yes. They were just all really nice, charming, giving, fun men.
BEHAR: Really? Sounds like Santa.
NICOSIA: Yes. It was like Santa Claus.
BEHAR: Like Santa Claus.
NICOSIA: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, in 2008, your husband was found guilty of extortion. How long is he in for? He`s in jail now.
NICOSIA: Yes, he was sentenced to three years and 10 months. And he -- should be out hopefully at the end of March of 2012.
BEHAR: I see. Now Linda, you are the daughter of Greg Scarpa. You`re not married to a mobster, your father was a mobster.
LINDA SCARPA, FATHER WAS GREG SCARPA: Right.
BEHAR: He`s no longer with us.
SCARPA: No, he passed away.
BEHAR: Tell me who your dad was.
SCARPA: My father was, according to the newspapers, the Grim Reaper.
BEHAR: The Grim Reaper, why did they call him that?
SCARPA: Because he was a notorious killer. One of the most feared mobsters supposedly in history.
BEHAR: He was the head of the Colombo crime family.
SCARPA: That`s right.
BEHAR: Uh-huh. Did he have a nickname? I love the names.
SCARPA: The Grim Reaper.
BEHAR: Besides that? I mean, hers was Phil "Philly" Caruso. What was yours? Like, you know, Tony "Go Fish" Scarpa, what was his name?
SCARPA: No, just his name was just Greg Sr.
BEHAR: Greg Sr.?
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, he was -- I mean, how -- what is it like to have a father who`s actually the Grim Reaper?
SCARPA: Well, I didn`t know him as the Grim Reaper.
BEHAR: What did you know him as?
SCARPA: I knew him as a great father. Growing up, we had a great life as kids.
BEHAR: Where did you grow up?
SCARPA: In Brooklyn.
BEHAR: Where?
SCARPA: Midwoods section. Avenue J. Then we moved to 82nd Street and Bay Ridge section. My father was a typical father. Played video games with us, cooked dinner, breakfast. We had to be home at 5:00 for dinner every night.
BEHAR: Did you know what he was doing when you were growing up?
SCARPA: Not up until I was -- maybe when I was around 16 I started to know.
BEHAR: What was your first clue?
SCARPA: My sweet 16 I had a few hundred people at my party that were all made guys with big gifts.
BEHAR: All made guys.
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: Meaning that they all had to kill somebody to be a made guy, right, isn`t that how that works?
SCARPA: Yes, they all -- pretty much.
BEHAR: So there were a couple hundred of them who were made guys?
SCARPA: Most of them were all either -- either in jail or dead today.
BEHAR: At this point, yes.
SCARPA: My sweet 16 video is actually pretty morbid right now.
BEHAR: I`d love to see it. I`m just getting started with the cast of "I Married a Mobster," so sit tight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel and we`re talking about being married to a mobster. I was talking to you, Linda, about your dad who was the head of the Colombo family in Brooklyn. He is no longer with us. He went to federal prison, I presume?
SCARPA: Yes, he died there.
BEHAR: He died in prison?
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: There was an attempt on your father`s life at one point. Yes? Tell me what happened there.
SCARPA: There was an attempt on his life, and they tried to kill him in front of me. I was in the car behind him.
BEHAR: In front of you? One of those like Sonny Corleone? You were going through a toll booth or something?
SCARPA: We were actually just leaving our home, and I just happened to have left at the same time as him that day and as he drove away--
BEHAR: You had your child with you?
SCARPA: I had my one-year-old son in the car with me. A huge truck blocked the street and --
BEHAR: Oh my God.
SCARPA: -- in a van behind me, several guys in masks and black outfits came running out of the van, shooting at my father. Several shots were fired into my car. It was pretty scary. The most terrifying thing I`ve ever seen.
BEHAR: See now, that sounds like something out of the "Godfather," where there were warring families. Is that what was going on?
SCARPA: Well, it was a war between -- inside the family.
BEHAR: Oh, within the family?
SCARPA: Within the family.
BEHAR: Now, isn`t that against the rules of the mafia or the mob, that you don`t take the innocent members of the family and put them in harm`s way?
SCARPA: Well, I think what happened that day was the plan was so well thought out that they didn`t want to back out. They just didn`t care that I was there at that point. It was so planned --
BEHAR: They would have killed you and your child?
SCARPA: I don`t think that was the intent, but it could have definitely happened.
BEHAR: But you said they --
(CROSSTALK)
SCARPA: They weren`t firing at my car. Shots were fired into my car accidentally because one of the guys in my father`s car jumped out to shoot back. So the guy that was shooting at him, his gun went a little bit out of control at that point.
BEHAR: How old were you then?
SCARPA: I was 21.
BEHAR: OK. So between 16 and 21, you knew what your father was up to?
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: And your mother knew probably the whole time, right?
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes, so did you -- how did you feel about all of it? How did you feel about your father?
SCARPA: I still love my father. You know, I still -- I have a lot of anger and resentment towards that life. I lost my brother due to that life.
BEHAR: How did your brother die?
SCARPA: My brother was murdered also.
BEHAR: Another mob hit?
SCARPA: It really wasn`t a mob hit. It was more of a -- a street incident between 22-year-old kids.
BEHAR: Oh.
SCARPA: But my brother had no more protection anymore. So he was left open in the streets of Brooklyn to basically get killed. When there was a problem, there was no one to protect him.
BEHAR: Are you married now?
SCARPA: No, I`m not.
BEHAR: You`re not married. Are you frightened to get married?
SCARPA: I was for a long time. Yes, I was.
BEHAR: These ladies were married to mobsters. Yours is a little bit different. You have a child?
SCARPA: I have four children.
BEHAR: Four children.
SCARPA: Well, the thing is, whether you`re married to a mobster or you`re conceived by a mobster, either way you`re in the mob. And there`s really no way out.
BEHAR: There`s no way out.
SCARPA: There`s no way out because of the fact that you have to live for the rest of your life with the scars, with the memories, with the people that you`ve lost. There`s so much pain that I will have to deal with for the rest of my life that even though I`m out of the -- I`m out of that life, that will never leave me.
BEHAR: And your mother? Your mother, too?
SCARPA: Well, my mother lost a son. So she will be in pain for the rest of her life. But the problem that I had -- and this is the first time that I`ve ever spoke openly about, this thing with me is I never spoke about my brother, the pain that I had with my brother because I didn`t feel that I had the right to grieve or cry to anyone because --
BEHAR: Why not?
SCARPA: Because I felt that so many people died due to the hands of my father. Who am I to cry or speak out to anybody about my pain.
BEHAR: I see. Well, you realize that your father is responsible for all this. Is that what you`re saying? You know that. You know that -- you love your father, he`s your only father.
SCARPA: Right.
BEHAR: He is the reason. Otherwise this would not have happened.
SCARPA: Well, that`s why I`m so resentful. I do know what he`s done, what he`s capable -- what he was capable of. And I feel like that has destroyed our lives completely.
BEHAR: Right.
SCARPA: We`re just trying to rebuild whatever we possibly can, dealing with that pain every day. It`s really hard.
BEHAR: It`s hard. It seems like it`s harder for you than being married, because it`s -- you know, it`s biological. It`s in the blood.
CARUSO: It`s in the blood.
BEHAR: You girls are basically married, so it`s a little different. Now, Cheryl, you must have liked all the perks. I mean, and the same thing with you.
CARUSO: Absolutely, who wouldn`t?
BEHAR: Of course.
CARUSO: You go through that lifestyle just receiving all these gifts, and going on these trips. And everything is wonderful, and everything`s perfect. And then the hardest part is for me and, you know, I`m a little bit different from Linda is that I didn`t know about it, his involvement, until all of a sudden one day -- one day my life was perfect; the very next day I`m dealing with somebody in organized crime. And I have, you know, the press out in front of my house. He`s on TV. And I have to go back now and face the public.
BEHAR: Right.
CARUSO: And just prove to everybody that I`m not a part of that. I`m different.
BEHAR: Well, you were in it, too. So you have to carry that burden now.
CARUSO: I do have to carry that burden.
BEHAR: Yes. Now Dion, in "The Godfather," Carlo -- remember "The Godfather," he beats up Connie, his sister. Did you see "The Godfather?"
NICOSIA: Oh, yes. Yes, OK.
BEHAR: It just makes me wonder. And then Sonny beat him up and then Sonny got killed, et cetera. Did your husband ever get violent with you?
NICOSIA: With me? Well, OK. I have actually hit him before --
BEHAR: You hit him?
NICOSIA: You know, because men at times, they just do not listen to what you`re saying. And, you know, so -- you know, so I just got, you know, mad and -- you know, boom, whacked him.
BEHAR: She whacked him. Get the -- get it.
NICOSIA: Yes. I mean, but -- you know, aside from that, no, no, no.
BEHAR: You never got hit. Did you?
NICOSIA: No, I never got hit.
CARUSO: No. Absolutely not.
BEHAR: Did your mother ever get hit?
SCARPA: Never.
BEHAR: So there was no violence against the women in the family from these men?
SCARPA: No.
BEHAR: In your situations?
NICOSIA: No. It was always me hitting him.
BEHAR: You know, Linda, it`s -- one of the facts about your father is that he died of AIDS in jail.
SCARPA: Yes.
BEHAR: Your brother was killed in a street fight a few months later. That must have been a rough time. What was -- just before we go, why did he die of AIDS, what happened there?
SCARPA: He had gotten sick and needed some blood transfusions. And at that time, the hospital requested friends and family to give the blood. One of his friends, who was a bodybuilder, was using steroids and dirty needles. Happened to give the blood. They didn`t screen the blood before they gave it to him because it was a friend. So they didn`t find out until a month later.
BEHAR: So that`s how he died. That`s how he died.
SCARPA: Well, he also refused food and water at some point toward the end.
BEHAR: He did. How old was he at that point?
SCARPA: He was in his 60s.
BEHAR: That`s not so old.
SCARPA: No.
BEHAR: Tragic stories.
OK, we`ll have even more when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. You know, I was wondering, do any of you -- you`re doing this show now. And it`s sort of fun to do a television show, right? Even Linda would agree with that, right?
SCARPA: I wouldn`t say it was fun. I actually wanted to do it for other reasons.
BEHAR: Like what?
SCARPA: Because it was the first time I was able to speak about -- openly about what I went through.
BEHAR: And you wanted to tell it to the world, not just a couple of people.
SCARPA: Right.
BEHAR: How about you? Are you having fun with it?
NICOSIA: I feel that it`s just very therapeutic. You know, lay it out there, get it out there. You know. It`s just like, ahh. You know. That`s the way I feel.
(CROSSTALK)
CARUSO: The same thing. It`s like you know, it`s my past, I really don`t like to talk about it, it`s really for me mentally a stepping stone to move forward. Now I want to close that door and move on. And here I am--
BEHAR: On television.
CARUSO: Well, yes, but -- yeah.
BEHAR: Do any of you feel as though you might have said too much, that you`re sorry that you revealed too much?
NICOSIA: No.
SCARPA: No.
CARUSO: No, not at all.
BEHAR: No.
(CROSSTALK)
CARUSO: No.
NICOSIA: It is what it is.
CARUSO: It is what it is, yes. Yes, it is what it is and we`re here now speaking about it, and telling our sides of the story, and we want to move on. And--
BEHAR: I mean, in your family, Linda, for example, is there anyone in the family saying, you know, what are you talking about? Don`t talk about the Colombo family like that?
SCARPA: There isn`t anyone left.
BEHAR: There`s nobody left.
SCARPA: No.
BEHAR: And none of the friends, none of the associates, they are all dead. It`s almost like the Italian mafia have sort of waned away. It`s the Russian mob and the Irish mob. We were talking about this guy Bulger before.
SCARPA: The Colombo family seemed to have just been on a warpath with each other, just killing each other.
BEHAR: Within the family. I mean, that`s an odd story. Usually it`s the other way around. But you know, a lot of -- there`s an -- as I said in the introduction, there is a lot of stories about the mob all of a sudden. It seems to be a very popular topic. Why do you think that is? Anybody?
NICOSIA: I think that people seem to be fascinated with the mob.
BEHAR: They certainly are.
NICOSIA: They are--
CARUSO: Absolutely.
NICOSIA: They are.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: "The Sopranos" was a big, enormous hit.
NICOSIA: They are. They`re fascinated.
CARUSO: Well, that`s it, who is really left to talk about it?
BEHAR: You guys.
CARUSO: Just the females. So here we are--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And the children. Right.
SCARPA: That`s really the whole reason why I really wanted to do this was because people are so fascinated with it. It`s really not very fascinating. It`s ugly.
NICOSIA: It`s not all it`s cracked up to be.
BEHAR: You want to show the truth.
SCARPA: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
NICOSIA: It`s not all it`s cracked up to be.
BEHAR: It`s dangerous.
(CROSSTALK)
NICOSIA: The FBI at your door at 5:30 in the morning. It`s not so glamorous.
BEHAR: Thank you very much for sharing your stories with me, and "I Married a Mobster" premieres tomorrow night on Investigation Discovery. Thanks for watching, everybody. Good night.
END
