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Nancy Grace
No Perjury Charge for Cindy Anthony
Aired July 12, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: While national polls say two thirds of all Americans believe tot mom`s guilty of killing 2-year-old little Caylee and the jury foreman who acquits tot mom says the not guilty verdict makes him, quote, "sick and disgusted," bombshell tonight. We learn the jury suspects tot mom`s own father, ex-cop George Anthony, of murder. That`s right, they actually thought George murders 2-year-old little Caylee. Are they crazy?
And the jury foreman, who doesn`t want his name or face revealed -- can you blame him? -- says if only there had been evidence tot mom ever looked up how to make chloroform, maybe they could have convicted. Hello? She did! Eighty-four searches on how to make chloroform and more! He goes on to say there just wasn`t enough chloroform to satisfy the jury. Not enough chloroform in her trunk, chloroform searches on her computer, chloroform at the scene where little Caylee`s body found? How much more chloroform does he need?
The hours ticking down to when tot mom walks free. Tot mom plans to go into hiding, and she says she wonders why everybody`s upset. We learn cops who first tried to investigate and prosecute tot mom`s claims she was sexually molested by both father George and brother Lee -- when that happens, Jose Baez`s defense team turns the cops away. And in another stunner, we learn there will be no perjury charges against grandmother Cindy after many say she lies repeatedly on the stand to save tot mom. No perjury charges!
And tonight, cops investigating felony jury tampering charges. Did the defense try to persuade witnesses to change their stories? In a bizarre twist, we learn the cops who prosecuted tot mom may now have to protect her. And uncovered -- defense attorney Cheney Mason blasts the media after the verdict for analyzing tot mom`s guilt, but we uncover his own words on TV slamming tot mom`s case.
Tot mom Casey Anthony set to go under oath just days after her release. Will we finally learn the truth?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I told you how this family lied!
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: You don`t want to be knocked down, get out of my way!
GEORGE ANTHONY: I want to be able to reach out and hug you and give you the (INAUDIBLE) the big Papa Joe hug.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Oh!
Oh!
Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As her release draws near...
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Everybody is looking for her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... we are hearing about death threats against the Anthonys.
CINDY ANTHONY: Are we going to be able to find her, do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This beautiful little girl was laid to rest.
CASEY ANTHONY: I hope we can, Mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In basically, a swamp.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You`re trying to take this joy of my life away from me, sir.
CASEY ANTHONY: My entire life has been taken from me!
GEORGE ANTHONY: The decomposition that I smelled in the trunk of my daughter`s car...
BAEZ: No real hard evidence.
GEORGE ANTHONY: ... smelled like human decomposition.
Do not come past here!
BAEZ: And that is why you called 911 right then and there, right?
CINDY ANTHONY: The baby-sitter took her a month ago!
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir, I did not call 911.
BAEZ: No fingerprints, nothing!
GEORGE ANTHONY: You are arguing with me, sir.
BAEZ: She`s a liar and a slut.
CINDY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been looking for her.
BAEZ: Convict her on that.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. We learn the jury suspects tot mom`s own father, ex-cop George Anthony, of murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s just suffice it to say that she never said it was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the first degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, everything you told us, we locked you into a lie.
CINDY ANTHONY: Do you think she could be out of the country or anywhere?
My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her!
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t want...
CINDY ANTHONY: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee was already in her resting place.
BAEZ: Fantasy searches!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the first degree.
BAEZ: Fantasy forensics!
The truth stops here!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the first degree.
BAEZ: Phantom stickers, phantom stains!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the first degree.
BAEZ: All of this nonsense!
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I`m not giving you another day. I`ve given you a month.
Then I found the pool ladder attached to the pool.
BAEZ: You doing any types of searches for any items that might include chloroform?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murder in the first degree.
BAEZ: Look what you`ve done!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It just didn`t come off that she wouldn`t tell us the truth. And that`s all we were after was the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. We are live in Orlando as the hours are ticking down to tot mom`s release. Tot mom says she`s going to have to go into hiding, like the Witness Protection Act, and that she really doesn`t understand why everybody`s upset. This as we discover the jury foreperson, who says his own not guilty verdict makes him, quote, "sick and disgusted," actually says that they -- the jury -- suspected father George Anthony of murder. Now, what alternate universe are they living in?
Straight out to Robyn Walensky, WDBO. You were there at the police press conference today. What is this about the jury suspecting George Anthony, the only stand-up guy in the whole kit and kaboodle, of murder? Are they crazy?
ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: Nancy, it`s insane. The police never considered George Anthony a suspect. Juror number 11 was on another TV show and he was asked by the host three questions -- Do you think that George Anthony was involved in a cover-up? Do you think that George Anthony was involved in the, quote, unquote, "accident"? Did the jurors believe that he was actually involved in the murder?
And believe it or not, juror number 11, who`s in his 30s and a gym teacher, Nancy, said that all three were a possibility. The exact quote was, "We don`t know, suspicions were raised." I swear, Nancy, I feel like I was watching a different trial than the jurors!
GRACE: You know, I don`t understand it. I don`t understand how they could be so upside-down, topsy-turvy. And of course he doesn`t want his face or his name released after a verdict like this. Many of the jurors trying to cash in on their jury experience.
We are taking your calls live. I want to go to Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of HLN`s "Issues With Jane Velez." (SIC) Jane, you`re standing by, along with Michael Christian, there at the OC -- Orange County -- jail. When is she set to be released?
Everybody, you see that clock down at the bottom of the screen? As we are ticking down the hours when tot mom`s actually going to walk free, a sentence, Jane Velez, I never thought we`d have to say.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": We`re here for the duration, Nancy. She is behind me somewhere behind the barbed wire there, and she is set to walk free Sunday, July 17th. And there`s a lot of speculation that she will leave in the dead of night. They do not want a lot of looky-loos. I`ve heard from sources that she may leave in a caravan of five to seven vehicles with tinted windows. Jose Baez has said she will immediately leave the area. There are three private airports in the area, as well as Orlando International, of course, Miami airport, et cetera, et cetera.
If she leaves, where is he going to go? There`s all sorts of talk. We don`t know for sure, but one possibility is Puerto Rico. Jose Baez is Puerto Rican, and also, she had wanted to go to Puerto Rico with her friends, as we learned during the trial. It`s also a commonwealth, so she wouldn`t need a passport. It`s near Florida. It makes perfect sense. But there`s also then talk she`s going to go to Houston, possibly Los Angeles, possibly New York. We don`t know for sure, but she`s going somewhere as soon as she gets out.
GRACE: Well, Michael Christian, senior field producer, "In Session" - - everybody, we are taking your calls, including Michael Christian and Jane Velez-Mitchell there at the jailhouse.
Michael Christian, she`s got to go hole up somewhere because she`s got to write that million-dollar book. What`s this business about plastic surgery, Michael Christian?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": You know, that`s been mentioned as a possibility, Nancy. We`ve heard that she may cut or dye her hair. We`ve heard it mentioned that she may have plastic surgery. We`ve heard it mentioned that she may go somewhere under an assumed name, as you say, just like the witness protection plan.
Now, supposedly, she has opted out of the plastic surgery route. So we`re hearing that she`s not going to have that. But if she`s going to stay in this area, and by "this area," I mean pretty much anywhere in the state of Florida, she is going to have to do something to disguise her identity because she just simply can`t walk down the street. It`s not good for society and it`s certainly not good for her.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true -- to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Isn`t it true that we have now learned that the so-called threats against tot mom are, as police say, incredible, they`re not substantiated, they don`t amount to anything?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. The sheriff explained today that their role would be escorting her safely out of jail. He said if there was a credible threat, they would move on that. But he said at this point, when he was speaking this afternoon, there are no credible threats against Casey Anthony.
GRACE: OK, put Jostad back up! So Ellie, after all this hullabaloo by the defense about, This is tot mom`s -- excuse me -- this is Casey Anthony`s country, too...
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: ... there`s not a single credible threat? They`re just stirring the pot? Is that what you`re telling me, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. The sheriff said that they are not going to be her personal security. They`re not going to go to elaborate lengths to protect her. But he said right now, no credible threats that they could act on.
GRACE: No credible threats. Jane Velez-Mitchell, all this is -- and look, I don`t want there to be a threat! I don`t want vigilantism, no more than I wanted tot mom to murder her little girl. I don`t want anybody to commit a crime of any type.
But we`ve heard so much from the defense about how tot mom`s not safe, she`s under so much stress, there are all these death threats against her. But now we`re hearing from law enforcement that there`s not a single credible threat against her? So all this has been complete BS from the defense?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I can say this. I did speak to Mark Lippman, Nancy, the attorney for Cindy and George. And he says they have received numerous phone threats. So there are kooks out there...
GRACE: I`m not talking about the Anthonys, I`m talking about tot mom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All I can say is that the law enforcement at the news conference today said that they are going to provide protection for her until she gets out of their jurisdiction, out of their hands. And then they`re, like, Well, she`s somebody else`s problem.
I have not heard from the defense about any specific threats...
GRACE: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL:
CINDY ANTHONY: ... but I know that they are very concerned for her safety, which I think makes sense. I do think it`s sensible to be concerned for her safety.
GRACE: To a special guest joining us tonight from LA, this is the former bodyguard and roommate of tot mom, Tracy McLaughlin. Tracy, thanks so much for being with us.
TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BODYGUARD: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Hey, Tracy, I know you`re probably reeling like the rest of us, but we just hear from the jury foreman that they actually suspect George Anthony murdered the baby. You were there in the home.
MCLAUGHLIN: That`s ridiculous.
GRACE: You lived there. Is there anything about father George Anthony that suggests, I`m a killer?
MCLAUGHLIN: No, not at all. George was the only one that showed grief. He didn`t want to play Casey`s game. It`s sickening.
GRACE: Everyone, we are live at the Orange County courthouse and the jailhouse, bringing you the latest as the clock ticks down for tot mom to walk free. This little girl, lost in the sauce (ph), Caylee Marie Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is faced with a problem.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: High school dropout. She`s got no future.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cold, callous and a monster who doesn`t care.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would you want to be with somebody like that who`s a failure?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!
GRACE: If my little girl were facing the Florida death penalty, I would roll this sleeve up right here and say, Here, put the needle right here. I understand what Cindy`s doing.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t recall putting in "how to make chloroform."
I need to find her!
I told you during my deposition in 2009 that I made those searches.
GRACE: ... in their right mind would ever consider going after Cindy. I would not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your mom takes the stand and has to lie for you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Whatever it takes (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: I`m on a jury, I wouldn`t vote Cindy Anthony guilty of perjury.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you on that Web site 84 times?
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know. I started looking up chloroform -- I mean, chlorophyll.
BAEZ: I don`t understand how you can get those two mixed up.
GRACE: Why tot mom would allow her defense team to set her own mother up for perjury.
CINDY ANTHONY: That`s our Caylee.
I will walk every inch of this earth!
GRACE: I would give her a moral acquittal because I understand what she did.
CINDY ANTHONY: Look at my granddaughter without getting upset.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I`m sorry.
CINDY ANTHONY: And I`m trying very hard not to cry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And more bombshell news tonight after we learn the jury foreperson says he suspected George Anthony of murdering Caylee. Absolutely not one shred of evidence to support that. I guess they`re living in an alternate universe. Tot mom set to walk free. You see that clock ticking at the bottom of the screen. And no perjury charges for Cindy Anthony. You heard some of her conflicting testimony.
Back out to the jailhouse and Michael Christian. Michael, her stories were in direct conflict to her sworn deposition. For instance, about leaving the ladder up on the pool, Michael Christian -- in her deposition, she went so far to say that the night before Caylee disappeared, she distinctly remembers taking the ladder down. And by the time she came in from the pool, Caylee was already in the bathtub with tot mom, Casey Anthony.
But on the stand, she says she realized it was up and the gate was open and she called George immediately. The state said no such phone call existed.
CHRISTIAN: That`s right, Nancy. She blames those discrepancies on memory problems based on medications she was taking. She said during the trial that she had changed her medication and that her memory is actually sharper now than it was when earlier when she was giving those earlier answers.
I think, in many ways, it was wise for the prosecution to drop this. It`s tough to prove perjury. You can always say, Well, gee, my memory`s playing tricks on me. I couldn`t remember if it was this day or that day.
GRACE: Right.
CHRISTIAN: I can`t remember quite if I searched A or B. I think maybe they made the right decision here.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. John Burris, defense attorney, San Francisco, Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta.
John Burris, how hard is it to get a perjury conviction? And remember, that is not the standard prosecutors use as to whether they`re going to seek charges or not. They seek charges on whether the act occurred, not whether they`ve got a good shot at a conviction.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think that in a case like this, in terms of a mother, it would be practically impossible to do it. It has to be on a material issue in the case, in any event. And that was. I mean, I think the issue of what she was saying was material. But at the end of the day, no one`s going to want to convict her for perjury in a case involving her daughter. They`re just not going to do it.
GRACE: Well, I know that -- I don`t think anybody would convict her. That was not my question, John Burris, although I do believe that`s easier to answer!
OK, Kessler, here`s your shot at it. Why -- How difficult would it to be bring charges against Cindy Anthony for perjury? And I`m not jumping on that bandwagon! She`s already got a life sentence, in my mind, because of the loss of Caylee and her daughter. God help Cindy. So I don`t want to heap more pain on the woman.
But what about perjury charges? Do you think the state should bring them?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. You`ve got to prove intent. Did she intend to lie or did she forget? How do you prove -- how do you get inside somebody`s mind unless she confessed to somebody...
GRACE: Put Kessler up!
KESSLER: ... Watch what I say (ph) on the witness stand.
GRACE: Put him up!
KESSLER: Put me up!
GRACE: Randy...
KESSLER: Yes, sir? Yes, ma`am?
GRACE: Have you lost your mind?
KESSLER: No.
GRACE: How does the state prove intent in every single case that they put up? Intent can be shown implicitly or explicitly...
KESSLER: Right. Let`s go back...
GRACE: ... by words or by actions.
KESSLER: Right. Circumstantial evidence. That got them real far in the Casey Anthony case.
GRACE: Yes, that`s true.
KESSLER: You know, none of this -- none of this is going to bring back Caylee. You know, perjury against grandma...
GRACE: Kessler -- Kessler, of course it`s not bringing back Caylee. That`s not the issue.
KESSLER: We`re keeping...
GRACE: You know, aside from -- OK, you know what? Forget it!
To C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain. C.W., let`s just get real for a minute. How hard is it to bring perjury charges? I mean, Cindy is on the stand outright lying to save her daughter. I know it, you know it, we all know it. I don`t want perjury charges, either. I want her to go on with her life. But how hard is it to bring perjury charges, C.W.?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPT.: Well, you know, it`s pretty tough. But the question is, do you want to do it to make a statement? And they could have done that and said, Hey, everybody, listen, we`re not going to put up with this. And they didn`t.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Amber Alert has been issued for a 4-month-old Michigan girl.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re here to find baby Catherine (ph) and bring her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t feel like we`re any closer to finding her. We still don`t know where she`s at, you know? We know she didn`t just walk away. Not knowing is the worst part.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This Sunday, Casey Anthony will be a free woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s still amazing to me how she reacted or how she didn`t react inside the interview.
(INAUDIBLE) those two people that were talking about, the person who had an accident or made an accident or made a bad decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no question about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a person who`s just a cold-blooded, callous monster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People don`t make accidents look like murder!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No person would ever make the accidental death of a child look like murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said it was an accident.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll take this as far as I need to to prove my innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wouldn`t tell us the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are taking your calls. We are live at the Orange County jail and courthouse as the clock ticks down for tot mom to be released, holing away somewhere to work on that million-dollar book deal that`s in the works.
Let`s go out to the lines. Beverly in North Carolina. Hi, Beverly. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, I love you and I love your show.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is footing the bill for Casey Anthony to leave undercover like Paris Hilton? I hope it`s not us taxpayers.
GRACE: I got some bad news for you. Let`s go to C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain. C.W., who`s going to pay for her undercover release?
JENSEN: Well, if I was in charge of this thing, I would be telling the commander in charge of the jail, Look, I don`t want any kind of problems. So I would bring her into the sally port, which is basically a garage, bring her cars in, have her in there and then just have them gone. And at that point, I wash my hands of her. Done.
GRACE: Well, I just wonder if somebody`s going to sponsor her outfit and have her do a little perp walk so all her outfit will be all in the magazines.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Even to this day I`m still surprised that she just didn`t come off, that she wouldn`t tell us the truth. Everything you told us is a lie.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: No clue where she is.
MELICH: Sure you do. Cold, callous and a monster, who doesn`t care. (INAUDIBLE) we`re at I think this whole thing could have been -- had we known the known.
Now we`re giving you this opportunity and you continue to lie. And you continue to lie.
CASEY ANTHONY: I want my daughter back.
MELICH: Do you swear or affirm everything you just told me is the truth?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would have taken to Casey to any theme park that she wanted to go to if it would have led to finding her.
MELICH: So you purposely misled us, this was all an attempt to find your daughter, right? That makes sense to you. Correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Again, in a backwards sort of way, yes.
MELICH: You`re just trying to get away with something that -- something bad had happened and you`re trying to cover it up.
I can tell myself it was frustrating at the point that she just wasn`t being honest, completely honest with us.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back. We are live at the Orange County jailhouse and courthouse bringing you the latest as the hours tick down for tot mom`s release.
Straight out to a special guest joining us. Mike Belmessieri. He is a Scott Peterson juror, co-author of "We the Jury: Deciding the Fate of Scott Peterson."
Mike Belmessieri, it`s great to see you again.
MIKE BELMESSIERI, SCOTT PETERSON JUROR, CO-AUTHOR, "WE THE JURY": Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: I`m sure you`ve been covering, watching -- hey. I`m sure you`ve been watching the trial. And now we learned the jury foreperson says he is, quote, "sick and disgusted" at his own verdict.
Mike, you`ve been in the jury room. I never have. I don`t understand how they can say things now like, you know what? There just wasn`t enough chloroform for us to believe anything happened.
Mike, there was chloroform in the trunk. There was chloroform at the scene in a syringe. There were searches for chloroform on tot mom`s computer. This hair from Caylee with a death band on it in her trunk.
What happened, Mike?
BELMESSIERI: Well, I don`t know what happened, Nancy. I wasn`t there. But, you know, whatever happened, these 12 people have to live with it for the rest of their lives. And, you know, when we do these things, when you walk out of a deliberation and whatever the verdict is -- guilty or not guilty -- apparently hopefully you`ve done the best you can.
But you know I just don`t -- I just can`t -- I can`t get my hand -- my ideas around this whole jury and some of the things that I have heard said. For instance, you know, if I`m a juror on a case such as this I`m not going to say -- although not guilty doesn`t mean innocent, and that`s a fact. But if I feel that there`s -- that there isn`t innocence there I`m going to continue to try and hammer and get through this thing and maybe go through the testimony in the evidence at least one or two more times because when I walk out of that jury room I want to feel comfortable and -- pardon?
GRACE: Nothing, go ahead, dear.
BELMESSIERI: I want to feel comfortable in what I have said. I`m going to live with this for the rest of my life and I`m only going to get one shot to do it.
GRACE: You know what, Mike Belmessieri?
BELMESSIERI: That`s why you`re there.
GRACE: Everybody, Mike is also taking your calls. He`s on the Scott Peterson jury.
You know, Mike, you know that feeling that you get that -- or at least I get -- a sick feeling? Sometimes I feel hot. Sometimes I feel sick to my stomach when I know I have done something wrong or I feel like I`m doing the wrong thing?
It`s called your conscience. You know, a bunch of highbrows may call it something else, but I think it is your conscience inside of you. That little piece of divinity in each one of us that comes in our ear and says this is right and this is wrong. Don`t do that. Do this.
And if they feel sick and disgusted, how could you say -- he said he felt awful writing his signature on the same indictment where tot mom have pled not guilty. I just could not have walked out of the jury room feeling sick at my own verdict.
BELMESSIERI: Well, if he felt that way about the way the decision was going down then maybe they needed to review a few things and take another look at it until they felt right about it.
I can`t imagine sitting and watching this. I can think of no greater injustice than to convict a woman of killing her child when she`s innocent.
GRACE: Agree.
BELMESSIERI: But by the same token, I can think -- I can think of no other greater injustice than to let a guilty mother go for a crime such as this. When I -- you know, when I would do this, when I was on Peterson, I -- you know, I had to feel right with what I was doing. And when it was all over, you know, they say well, beyond a reasonable doubt.
You know personally I had to take it to another level with myself, within myself. I looked back at Peterson and I know I made no mistake in voting him guilty and voting for the death penalty because the death penalty was the appropriate penalty because I could think of no greater penalty that was offered.
I know of none. You know these jurors, they had a tough time. They were sequestered the entire time, working seven days. They`ve been through a lot. I don`t know if that played into anything towards the end when they got into deliberations. But I`ve got to tell you that it was difficult.
GRACE: Well, I know this, Mike Belmessieri, the Scott Peterson jury, author of -- co-author of "We the Jury: Deciding the Fate of Scott Peterson." Nobody on your jury had to hide their face.
BELMESSIERI: No.
GRACE: Nobody on your jury wanted their names to be kept secret.
Everybody, we are taking your calls. But I want to go back to Tracy McLaughlin, former bodyguard and roommate of tot mom, Casey Anthony.
You know I was asking you earlier, Tracy, now the jury is saying that they really think maybe George Anthony might have killed Caylee which is just incredible, I`ve heard so much about what you observed in that home.
And Tracy, I want to know your response to the verdict and what did you observe in that home? Is it true that tot mom told you -- oh, this is before tot mom -- Caylee`s body had been found. She said, oh, yes, here`s my tattoo, I got it in memory of Caylee.
TRACY MCLAUGHLIN, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BODYGUARD: Yes, you do.
GRACE: Nobody had even had said Caylee was dead yet.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. Just to observe Casey -- I can`t remember what the question you asked me now but she was happy. She`s not -- she didn`t want Caylee or any -- to be bothered by anything about Caylee. And George was the most upset person in the household.
There were so many little tricks that I saw that the defense used with Caylee climbing up the pool ladder, with her opening the sliding glass door. I went in and out that door. And you can`t -- you have to have a lot of muscle to push that door open. It was open that much to have the dogs going in and out of the backyard.
But just the little -- it just bothers me that they put so much on George when they didn`t -- the case is about Casey.
GRACE: You know, Tracy, tell me what George was like in your time around him. I mean, everything I know about him screams nothing but a good father and grandfather. Really, the same thing for Cindy, too.
MCLAUGHLIN: That`s what I saw with George. He was -- he was so upset. When Casey first came home, I didn`t expect it to be a happy reunion. I didn`t expect her to be excited and want to have fun and want to play. I thought there`d really be some, you know, serious crying and a meltdown.
Cindy did tiptoe around anything Casey wanted to say, but George stood back. And he was mad. And as Rob tells me, it`s the cop side of him. He wanted to know what happened and he couldn`t play the little game that everybody else was playing with her.
GRACE: Joining us right now is a very special guest. Harry Krop, Dr. Harry Krop. He`s a forensic psychologist and he evaluated tot mom behind bars.
Dr. Krop, thank you for being with us. You spent really more time with tot mom behind bars than practically anybody else except her defense lawyers.
I wanted to ask you. Did you ever talk to Casey Anthony at all about Caylee`s remains being found?
HARRY KROP, PH.D., EVALUATED TOT MOM, CLINICAL AND FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST, DEATH PENALTY CASE QUALIFIED (via phone): Not really. And one of the things, Nancy, I want to sort of preface this by saying that Casey actually did sign a release allowing me to talk to you. There are two issues, though, that I won`t be able to talk about. And one of them is the incident itself and then the other are the allegations that were brought up in opening arguments about the sexual abuse.
But I came on because actually Casey wanted me to speak to you. The good and the bad. But here I am.
GRACE: Did you assess her regarding any mental illness, Doctor?
KROP: Sure. I spent about 20 hours with Casey over about four or five sessions. I got involved in November 2010. The original purpose of my involvement was in case the jury found her guilty of first degree murder. One of the specialty areas that I have is working on cases I have done over 2,000 first degree murder, death penalty cases. So I originally came on board --
GRACE: Did you find her to be mentally ill in any way, Dr. Krop?
KROP: No. I did not find any mental illness.
GRACE: To what do you attribute all of the lying during the days after Caylee was murdered?
KROP: Well, it wasn`t until after I probably spent all those hours with Casey. And, of course, you know, we`re talking three years prior to the period of time that I really started working with her.
And I think one really has to understand some of the dynamics. I know you used many times the term "dysfunctional family" and I don`t think anybody is going to challenge that. This was a family that had a lot of secrets. This was a family that had a lot of inappropriate ways of coping with conflict issues. And the lying was -- Casey herself can`t even explain that. She said she looked --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: In my opinion they never should have done the things they have done to begin with. I told you that before. For all this talking and playing the press, thinking amaturiously that they were going to create a reasonable doubt about her being alive.
Well, you know what happens now? All of that talking and all the press interviews and the parents going on this show and that show and the lawyer going to different shows establishes they have no credibility whatsoever.
You can pretty well predict that there is going to be a life sentence and either plea and get it over with or have a surface trial and then be convicted and then get life.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Just in case you`re wondering, that is one of the lead defense attorneys, Cheney Mason, after he blasted local media and others for analyzing tot mom`s guilt during the trial. We found those and other appearances by Cheney Mason before he was hired that the defense team saying the defense for tot mom has no credibility whatsoever. That she can either plead guilty now or have a circus of a trial and then get life.
He slams the defense over and over and then gets hired to be on the defense team and comes out swinging at the press for saying exactly what he said before he joined the defense team.
To Dr. Leslie Austin, psychotherapist. Why the about-face by Cheney Mason? Why did he do that?
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I`m not sure why. I think what he said before he was hired was much more sane and reasonable. I think perhaps he had an ethical position as a lawyer that everybody deserves the best defense they can get and he thinks he`s it. I`m sorry that he didn`t -- that he joined the case in that case if that`s the truth. And I do --
GRACE: Well, I was referring to him bitterly, bitterly criticizing the media. Like we had something to do with her arrest when he came out of the verdict -- the not guilty verdict when he himself had been blasting the defense. Long, long before the trial started.
AUSTIN: Well, you know, it`s similar to Casey`s personality. They are going to do and say what will serve their interests best. And the truth is secondary here. Their self-interest is what`s important.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Leila in Louisiana. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
LEILA, CALLER FROM LOUISIANA: Oh, God bless you all. And thank you for your sacrifice of being away from your family. And I love you --
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Leila. After being away from them for about two nights, I brought the whole caboodle with me to Orlando. Oh, yes. Disneyworld, SeaWorld, Grandpa`s Jumpy House, Monkey Joe`s. That`s where I was when I wasn`t sitting outside the courthouse.
What`s your question, love?
LEILA: Correct me if I`m wrong, but it seemed like during the beginning of the trial that the defense lawyers were sanctioned for doing wrong. And there is an elephant in the room since Mike from the Peterson jury? It just seems like maybe the jury was talking about what was going on before they deliberated.
GRACE: You know, that`s a very good question.
To Michael Christian, I think what Leila is talking about were the sanctions that Judge Belvin Perry intimated he was going to hand down during the trial. I never heard anything else about them.
What do you know?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": That is not things that the jurors heard, Nancy, although God knows it could have leaked in somehow. That was not done in open court with the jurors there.
GRACE: I know that.
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIAN: But that is sort of gone away -- the judge never brought it up again. At this point it seems to be a dead issue.
GRACE: OK. And, you know, good question about how long they were out.
Jane Velez-Mitchell joining me at the jailhouse. This jury deliberated over just 11 hours, right?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL": Yes. Just under -- I mean it was just about 11 hours, 10 hours and 40-some minutes. And when you think, Nancy, they had to pick a jury foreperson, they had to have lunch, they had to read and understand the jury instructions, that should have taken them about 11 hours. So when did they have time to deliberate?
GRACE: To Mike Belmessieri, the Scott Peterson juror, 11 hours to review weeks and weeks of trial. What happened, Mike?
BELMESSIERI: It sounds like they`re either awfully organized or didn`t really get into it as deep as they should have.
GRACE: You know what, you always look --
BELMESSIERI: That`s my opinion.
GRACE: You`re such an optimist. You always look at the good side of things. I like that about you, Belmessieri.
I want to go back to Dr. Harry Krop. Dr,. Krop spent hours and hours with hot tot mom behind bars.
You stated that you observed she was not mentally ill and she cannot explain her lies. You also told us you would not address her allegations that she had been sexually molested by her father and her brother.
Do you believe, Dr. Krop, that she will return home to her parents` house when she is released?
KROP: We have spoken about that. I doubt it, Nancy. I think -- I`m not sure at this point whether she really knows where she`s going to go. I know that she has discussed that with her attorneys.
I think one of the things that I think Casey doesn`t appreciate is how negative and how much she has been vilified by the public. And I`m not saying that`s correct or incorrect. I`m saying she`s been in a vacuum. I think a lot of people don`t realize that she`s been in solitary confinement for three years.
Her attorneys have told her what`s going on and how the public perceives her. But I don`t know how realistic she is. And I`m not sure she will know what to expect until she really gets out here and faces reality.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Lenora in Texas. Hi, Lenora. What`s your question, dear?
LENORA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Yes, I have a comment, Nancy.
GRACE: OK.
LENORA: In the memorial, Lee stated that their family was united and that the code CMA, and that George said that she doesn`t deserve this. Then fast forward five weeks prior to the trial, that Baez calls the meeting of the family.
So I think all three knew that they were going to be called as a defense witness at the end. And all three fell on the sword. Lee with his memory, Cindy with the computer and the ladder, and George denying the snowball effect which I do believe he said it. But he denied it to give doubt.
GRACE: To Tracy McLaughlin, you spent so much time with the family. Do you think it`s possible they had this meeting and they divvied up who would take blame for what, Tracy?
MCLAUGHLIN: I don`t think they had a meeting. I think Cindy decided that she wanted to help out a little bit. I don`t -- Cindy loves Casey. She didn`t want to see her get the death penalty. But I don`t think what - - I don`t think she expected Casey to be walking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELICH: What happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
MELICH: Sure you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
MELICH: Can you tell us? Something happened to Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The most documented liar ever seen in a courtroom.
CASEY ANTHONY: I wish I could have come, Daddy, sooner. I wish that -- like I said that none of this would have happened.
MELICH: She wouldn`t tell us the truth. And that`s all we were after was the truth. That day this whole thing could have ended had we known the truth.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Caylee Anthony died when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: People don`t make accidents look like murder. I felt that our case was solid.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said it was an accident.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live at the courthouse and the jailhouse taking your calls. Tot mom said to walk free in just a few days.
Out to Jim in Virginia. Hi, Jim. What`s your question?
JIM, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. My question is this. It`s been reported that a number of the so-called jurors requested that they be released by Judge Perry. And I think indicating that they just didn`t feel they were up to doing the job that they needed to do to serve on this jury. And Judge Perry would not release them. And I`m just wondering what your view of that is.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Let`s address Jim`s question. We`ve just got seconds left. Randy Kessler, some of these jurors did not want to be on the jury. Did it play into the verdict?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. That`s a normal common human being reaction.
GRACE: OK.
KESSLER: I don`t want to spend the time --
GRACE: John Burris, what about it?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Agreed. I don`t think it had any impact whatsoever. Most jurors don`t want to serve. But once they do I think they do their job as best they can.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Joseph Graves, 21, Discovery Bay, California, killed in Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation and Achievement. Played multiple instruments. Loved bible studies, history from grandfather. Favorite movie "Wedding Crashers."
Dreamed of joining FBI or CIA and starting a family and buying a house. Leaves behind parents Kevin and Maryanne, stepparents Robert and Leeann, brothers Bobby and Brandon, widow Corey.
Joseph Graves, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.
And happy 12th birthday to crime fighter Jenna. Loves soccer, reading, little brother Ryan. Mom Linda is our show`s Extraordinary Parent winner 2008.
And happy birthday to Atlanta defense attorney Ray Giudice.
Ray, please stay strong.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be live at the courthouse and the jailhouse. Seeing the case through until the end. I`ll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.
END
