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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Casey Anthony Jurors Speak Out; What`s Next for Casey Anthony?
Aired July 13, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Casey Anthony bolts of jail Sunday. Is an acting career in Tinseltown her next stop?
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I want you to tell Zanny that she needs to return Caylee.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, I`ll talk to Hollywood`s most famous insider.
And another beautiful 2-year-old Florida girl dies after taking powerful painkillers. Now her mother is facing manslaughter charges. The eerie similarities with the Casey Anthony case are absolutely striking, right down to the names. And you won`t believe what she first told cops.
Then on the heels of a shocking scandal, Arnold Schwarzenegger is now slapped with a lawsuit. Why is the family of a murder victim suing the Terminator?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arnold Schwarzenegger essentially just said that it`s OK to stab other people and destroy evidence (ph) if you come from a connected family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`ll talk to the victim`s family in an ISSUES exclusive. And we`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JENNIFER FORD, CASEY ANTHONY JUROR: Well, you come home and everyone is mad at you, and the media is outside hounding you and making it clear they`re not leaving.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee! Caylee! Caylee! Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee! Caylee! Caylee! Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caylee! Caylee! Caylee! Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are taking it so personal. It`s so personal to us and they just let a baby killer out of jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee. God is not going to fly from heaven and do for us what we can do for ourselves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is heart breaking. Her child is gone, and no one is held accountable. It`s sad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She got away with it. And you know it. And people are saying that it`s OK. She didn`t get away with it, that -- I can`t even talk. I`m appalled by this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it`s about right what she`s getting, because she obviously didn`t do the murder.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: There are no winners in this case. Caylee has passed on far, far too soon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anytime she comes out is too soon for me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her daughter died, and she plans to get out of jail, and make a book, make a movie, make all kinds of money. It`s given her her bella vita life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It`s obviously - - has not proven that she`s innocent, but it certainly hasn`t proven that she`s guilty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey`s prison days are numbered. Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from Orlando, Florida. Casey Anthony right now as we speak in the jail behind me. She is set to be released on Sunday, but could she get out? Well, in the dead of night. Sunday, 12:01, right after Saturday night, could they try to pull a fast one, sneak her out under the radar?
Meanwhile, the jurors who gave Casey her freedom continue to come forward. They are trying to explain their thinking to a nation, perplexed by their very rapid acquittal. Juror No. 3, Jennifer Ford, spoke to CNN`s Gary Tuchman, and she said the response has been vicious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORD: It`s very stressful, and you know, you get anonymous letters from people that are hateful and nasty. And...
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What have people said in these letters?
FORD: Honestly, I read probably the first sentence, and if it starts with "shame on you" in all capital letters, I usually just rip it up and throw it away. Because I know it`s just going to be -- you know, I`ve seen like things on Facebook probably from the same person, you know, "You`re ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself. You let a murderer go free," et cetera, et cetera.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the man known only as juror No. 11, the jury foreperson, tackles the big question: why did the jury ignore Casey`s very suspicious behavior during those infamous 31 days.
And he says, quote, "Much of the time we were in that trial, a lot of it dealt with her actions afterwards. That`s something that, although it`s disgusting, it is heinous, we really were not able to take into consideration."
What? Really? Her behavior was really inconsequential? Hmm. Why did the prosecution mention it, then? Obviously, the prosecution thought otherwise. Listen to Linda Drane-Burdick`s closing arguments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: No person would ever make the accidental death of a child look like murder. Whose life was better? There`s your answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Do you think the jury got it right? Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. I am here outside the jail. 1-877-586-7297.
I`m thrilled to have my good friend Harvey Levin of TMZ, founder, creator, boss of TMZ.
Harvey, in addition to being -- well, they call you the king of Hollywood, you`re also a very good lawyer. And I have seen that up close and personal. What do you make of these jurors saying, "Well, the behavior of Casey Anthony in the 31 days after her child disappeared, and now both sides admit one way or another was dead, is terrible but we couldn`t take it into consideration, what do you make of it, Harvey?
HARVEY LEVIN, FOUNDER/CREATOR, TMZ: I`m perplexed by it, Jane. I mean, that to me is important, because I think -- it`s not conclusive, for sure. But it`s part of the building blocks of a case to be able to look at somebody`s conduct.
Now conduct, you know, people react in all sorts of different ways. And I`m sure if the foreman is saying, look, because somebody does certain things, that doesn`t mean they killed. It may mean their behavior is bizarre, but it doesn`t necessarily connect that they have -- that they have murdered their child. I don`t know.
The one thing I would say, Jane, and the one thing that I`ve heard throughout there is everybody is talking like this is a monolithic jury. And what I`ve found over time is, even though certain jurors may come out and say, "Here`s what we felt," that it may be that certain jurors felt there were certain things that were compelling. Others felt other things were compelling. But rarely are jurors completely monolithic.
So there may be a variety of reasons why she was found not guilty. And juror No. 4 may have -- the linchpin for juror No. 4 may be different from the linchpin for juror No. 7.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and there was 10-2 in favor of acquittal on murder one when they first took a little survey. And then it went to 6-6, split down the middle on aggravated manslaughter. And eventually those who were in favor of at least aggravated manslaughter were convinced otherwise.
But my personal opinion, Harvey, is that jurors don`t want to do homework these days. They didn`t take any notes, very few notes. And they reached a decision in under 11 hours.
And additionally, they didn`t get the -- I would say the Casey Anthony Case for Dummies that the defense presented, with all the charts and all the -- they didn`t want to do homework. And the prosecution presented an old-fashioned case that would have required them to go back and do hours and days of homework, putting the pieces together. They wanted a prefab case handed to them, and they didn`t get it. And I think it`s a lesson for prosecutors in general in the future.
America culturally doesn`t want to do homework. They`re used to having information handed to them on a silver platter. They`re not used to the old "12 Angry Men," going back there and arguing for a long time. We`re an instant gratification culture, Harvey. If you don`t give it to them right away, enh.
LEVIN: I don`t know, Jane. I heard a couple of the jurors, and I thought they sounded somewhat thoughtful in, you know, their problems.
Remember, their problems go to reasonable doubt, not the whole case. Their issue -- they don`t have to say, "Look, we believe the prosecution on this, this, this, this and this." All they have to do is isolate the areas where they believe there is reasonable doubt. And if they isolate those areas, and that doubt is created, that`s enough for them to say "not guilty."
So the way you get there...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you...
LEVIN: ... doesn`t necessarily require a full evaluation if there are really important things that they have problems with that they say constitutes reasonable doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, what`s next for Casey Anthony? She`s going to leave here Sunday, probably 12:01, Saturday night, something like that. What`s going to happen? First exclusive interview, reality show? Book deal, made-for-TV movie? What`s your prediction, Harvey?
LEVIN: Well, I mean, look, she needs to make some money, because I think her shelf life now is very limited. And I don`t know who is going to hire this woman after the heat dies down. So I think she`s going to make a fortune on these morning shows.
They all say, Jane, that they don`t pay a penny for these interviews. But they do, and they do it by buying pictures. They do it by using the entertainment area of the network to pay the money so that the news division never actually antes it up. There are all sorts of ways these networks pay a lot of money. This will go for a million bucks, I think.
Beyond that, in terms of doing a show, I don`t think a network is going to put her on TV and make her star in anything. I don`t think -- I don`t think advertisers would tolerate that. And even her coming to Hollywood and consulting on a movie, I think, is not in the cards.
I think, realistically, that you`re going to see some type of movie of the week in the form of a "CSI" or whatever, but it won`t be with her participation. They`re going to do it from the trial transcripts. They will base it loosely on the case. But everybody will know it`s the Casey Anthony case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So you`re going to -- let me ask you this, quickly. Blowback for a major network that makes a deal with her to pay -- pay licensing fees?
LEVIN: Well, they -- I`m sorry, they will -- she will make -- she will make a deal with a network that will do an interview, and that...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I`m saying blowback on the network, will the network get blowback? Will the network suffer media consequences?
LEVIN: Jane -- Jane, they deny it. What they do is they just deny they paid. And what you have to do is get into their books and see that they actually paid money for the picture. They went through the entertainment division. That`s hard to do unless there`s a leak from inside the network.
There may be a leak here, because a lot of people are pissed off about Casey Anthony in the first place and if they believe Casey is paying, I think we may see that kind of a leak.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Come on. If she shows up on anything on television, you know somebody somewhere has exchanged funds with her.
Harvey, so great to talk to you. Thank you for your insights.
And we`re taking your calls on this: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Is she the new Casey Anthony? We`ve got another Florida mom, and she`s accused in the case of her 2-year-old daughter. Now this young girl overdosed on drugs. Unbelievable. A 2-year-old child.
And more trouble for Arnold Schwarzenegger. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not surprised that he`s not making any comment, because what he did is indefensible. He knows it. He knows that what he did is wrong. It`s inexcusable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUCHMAN: So what convinced you to switch your vote to "not guilty"?
FORD: I think everyone will tell you the same thing. It`s just lack of hard evidence. It`s just, like I said, the duct tape and the chloroform and things like that, you could -- if you took a good hard look at it, you could kind of -- there was a lot of doubt surrounding all of those certain things. So there`s not enough to make anything stick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: CNN`s Gary Tuchman talking to juror No. 3, Jennifer Ford. And I`m very delighted to have Gary Tuchman with me here.
This poor woman seems to be suffering right now, and no juror should suffer. That`s not the point. But -- but how is she dealing emotionally with all the criticism she`s coming under?
TUCHMAN: She`s having a very tough time. She`s getting hate mail; she`s getting death threats. She wanted to serve on this jury during voir dire, jury selection. Now she`s saying she never wants to do it again. She just wants to slip into her quiet life that she used to be.
And what`s really interesting about what she told me is she feels Casey Anthony is a liar, a terrible liar, a terrible mother. Maybe a murderer. She says her stomach hurts and she prays to God that a murderer is not going to get out of this jail Sunday, but she doesn`t know that for sure. She thinks her attorneys lied during opening statements about her father being a molester, about there even being a drowning, but she doesn`t think the prosecution gave them enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey Jordan, I don`t understand. Here`s my explanation. I keep saying this, and nobody reacts to it.
And that is that I believe that jurors want everything pre-packaged, prefabricated. They don`t want "War and Peace." They want the Cliff Notes. They want their homework to be done for them and laid out, like, on a platter, which is exactly what Jose Baez did. Now, you could call it misinformation, but it was organized in a way that was easy to absorb.
And the prosecution`s case was very heavy on rhetoric and very dramatic and really impressive speeches. But in terms of doing the homework for the jury, laying out the pings, laying out how you make chloroform, laying out the time line of hour by hour what may -- what they suspect happened in that home in the process of her allegedly murdering her daughter, I don`t think they laid it out. What do you think, Casey?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Jane, I`m not going to argue with you at all about that. Because there seemed to be -- when we`re hearing from these jurors, and we`ll put it on the record, we all respect the verdict. Not going to argue with it.
But the mechanics of what happened in that deliberation room are why we`re a little bit stuck on this subject. And in these interviews with jury No. 11, the alternate juror and now juror No. 3, I have not heard any of them use the phrase "reasonable doubt." I`ve heard the phrase "some doubt." I`ve heard the phrase "a lot of questions." And I`ve heard them say that we -- I never heard them say they inferred things, but I`ve heard them say they speculated. And none of these things should be part of deliberation.
It is hard work. I`ve been a professor for 23 years, Jane. And I`ve seen this whole concept of what you`re talking about. The instant gratification, the Cliff Notes. Nobody wants to put the work in. Nobody wants to substantiate their logic. They just want to give you a stream of consciousness.
And I worry...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.
JORDAN: ... that this jury went in there, and we went from six people, two who were ready to vote for first-degree murder...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
JORDAN: ... and six who were ready to vote for aggravated manslaughter. And suddenly, they all have reasonable doubt within ten hours?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very quickly. The jury instructions, gosh, it`s something like 30 pages. And it`s gobbledygook. "The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony on the defendant or to commit a felony on (UNINTELLIGIBLE)." I mean, it goes on and on for 28, 30 pages. Something has got to be done with these jury instructions. I don`t think people have any idea what they mean or what reasonable doubt is.
Now, speaking of paperwork, we`ve got some breaking news to tell you about. I got off the phone just minutes ago with Matt Morgan of Morgan and Morgan. And they`re the ones who represented Zenaida Gonzalez, who was suing Casey Anthony for defamation. And they are saying to me now that they don`t think she`s going to stick around for a deposition on Tuesday, because she gets out of this jail on Sunday.
So they are going to court. And this is the emergency motion to compel an appearance on videotaped deposition to get her on tape in their deposition before she leaves the jail, while she is still here, incarcerated. They`re going to go to court Friday and if they win, they`re going to come straight here and do a depo on her.
Brad Conway, you used to represent Cindy and George. What do you make of that dramatic development?
BRAD CONWAY, ATTORNEY: Good to be here, Jane. You know, that`s probably a smart move. Once she`s gone, who knows where she`s going to be? The court can always compel her testimony, but finding her is going to be the difficult part. I would make the same move if I were them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And now we`re hearing rumors that she might take the fifth. There`s going to be a big battle over that, because the lawyers for Zenaida Gonzalez say she shouldn`t be able to take the fifth, because she`s already been acquitted, so she can`t really incriminate herself. But that -- that`s another discussion.
I want to go to Melba Brugueras, a reporter with "Primera Hora", which is a newspaper in San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Melba, yesterday, here on ISSUES, we were talking about the possibility of Casey going to Puerto Rico. What are you hearing about that, Melba?
MELBA BRUGUERAS, REPORTER (via phone): Yes. Certainly, there`s been a lot of speculation, Jane, here in Puerto Rico about the possibility of Casey coming here after she gets out of the jail on Sunday. In fact, the speculations have been out in several newspapers in the United States and, of course, in Puerto Rico, especially by Internet.
And there`s a problem, Jane. Most Puerto Ricans have started to express themselves against Casey and against the idea of her coming to the island after she`s freed. I can also...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More on the other side. Hang in there. We`re going to get to more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee! Justice for...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Where is Casey Anthony going to go when she leaves the jail right behind me? Yes, right now, as we speak, Casey Anthony is somewhere back there, behind the barbed wire. She`s going to get out this coming Sunday, which probably means 12:01 Saturday night. We`re going to be here for the duration.
Now, there`s been speculation she might go to Los Angeles, New York. I`ve heard Europe. I`ve heard Houston. And one of the latest reports that`s surfaced, as sheer speculation, was Puerto Rico. It`s an easy flight from Florida. You don`t need a passport, because it`s a commonwealth. And also, her defense attorney has ties there, and also there`s many islands that are uninhabited and private islands around Puerto Rico.
So I`m with Melba Brugueras, reporter with "Primera Hora".
Melba, tell me about the Facebook movement in Puerto Rico against Casey Anthony going to the island. What do you know?
Brugueras: Yes, Jane. There`s a lot of speculation here in Puerto Rico about the possibility of Casey coming here after she gets out of jail on Sunday. In fact, the speculations have been out in several newspapers in the U.S. and of course, Puerto Rico, especially by Internet.
But there`s a problem, Jane. Most Puerto Ricans have started to express themselves against Casey and against the idea of her coming to the island after she`s freed.
And I can also tell you, Jane, that the Casey Anthony case became big news in Puerto Rico after the verdict. And now with all these rumors of Casey coming to the island, the Puerto Rican community has been clear that they find pathetic the idea of Casey moving to Puerto Rico.
In fact, a Puerto Rican Facebook page created a page under the title, "Puerto Rico does not want you, Casey Anthony." And let me tell you, most of the comments that have been posted in that Facebook page on the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) page, which is the Puerto Rican newspaper that represents, shows that most Puerto Ricans are against the idea of Casey coming to the island.
There`s more, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Melba.
But let me go to Brad Conway, who used to be the attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. What is your reaction to that, Brad?
CONWAY: You know, Jane, there`s nowhere that Casey Anthony can go where she`ll be safe or liked or employable. There just is nowhere that people will not recognize her in some form or another. You can`t stick her on a private island. What private island is she going to go to? How is she going to get on a commercial flight without being recognized? So she`s going to be discovered somewhere. Wherever they put her, they`ll find her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let me bring in Gary Tuchman, CNN correspondent. You see her at the jail. You`ve been working this case. What do you suspect is going to happen?
TUCHMAN: Well, here`s what we thought. We thought that they would take her out of this jail and bring her to another jail facility to make it more secure for her to leave on Sunday. We`re being told now it`s very unlikely, that she will depart from here. It could be, like you said, at 12:01 a.m. They`re going to have intense security. This will be like some of the mafia trials I`ve covered, where they`ve got John Gotti in and out of the courtroom with security. So different situation but same kind of security.
Their responsibility, in the words of many officials, to make sure she`s safe. Once she leaves the county line, they wipe their hands of her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Gary, thank you so much for providing your insight. You`ve been doing this a long time. I think you`re probably on the right track.
All right. We`ll be back in just a moment with more. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER FORD, JUROR IN CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: It`s very stressful and, you know, you get anonymous letters from people that are hateful and nasty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I treat the Casey that I was engaged to like she is dead. She doesn`t exist anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that she can walk. I mean she`s already served three years in jail. .
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Not guilty of the crime contained in count --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very dysfunctional family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She really knows what happened to her little girl. And I guess she`ll have to live with it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just (INAUDIBLE); I thought she would get nailed. Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you kidding many me? No, you`re kidding me, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re kidding.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think there`s anything they can do. A killer`s walked free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from Orlando, Florida. Behind me, behind the barbed wire, behind me sits Casey Anthony. She`s scheduled to be released on Sunday. But it could be 12:01 Saturday night; in other words, the first minutes of Sunday. We`re going to be here for the duration. You know what I`m doing Saturday night.
But we`ve got to keep it back on the victim -- Caylee. That`s where the focus has to be. In fact people in the community are going to be organizing a march for Caylee on Sunday through the streets because they want to focus on the victim.
And as we think about poor Caylee now, we have another Florida toddler to think about. This toddler also -- this little girl died a senseless death. And cops say it is because of her mother.
Some eerie, eerie parallels here; just like Casey Anthony cops say Tiffany Mitchell`s first instinct was to lie when she was asked about her little girl`s death. Does that sound familiar? Look how similar these two are.
When we found a photo of the child, little Caylin -- Caylin on findagrave.com; she died after swallowing oxycodone. But cops say the mom told them, initially anyway, she had no idea where little Caylin had gotten the drugs.
Well, now cops say Tiffany Mitchell has changed her story and admits that she left the drugs on her night stand while she took a shower.
Straight out to Tiffany Mitchell`s attorney, Jimmy Brown; thank you for joining us, Jimmy Brown. First of all, I understand there`s some breaking news and your client has just gotten out on bail? Tell us about that. Apparently that happened moments ago?
JIMMY BROWN, ATTORNEY FOR TIFFANY MITCHELL (via telephone): That`s correct. We had a bail hearing this morning about 8:15 and she has just recently been released from Hernando County Jail.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. You`ve got to speak up, sir, because you`re on -- it sounds like you`re at the bottom of a well.
Ok, people are saying there were eerie similarities to the Casey Anthony case. Your client, an attractive young female in her 20`s, also a child approximately 2 years old; both lied to law enforcement initially. And both involved at least talk anyway of an accident, an accident.
Obviously the Casey Anthony case, the accident, depending on who you believe is an accidental drowning, chloroform overdose. In the case of your client, it`s oxycodone, also known as hillbilly heroin. What do you have to say about your client? Even the names are similar, Caylee and the child who died in the case of the client you represent, Caylin. Your thoughts, sir?
BROWN: I think there are certainly superficial similarities. The names are eerily similar, that`s true. The ages of the children are similar. The age of the mothers are similar. And the allegations, at least as to one of the counts that Casey Anthony faced there for culpable negligence, that`s the aggravated manslaughter of a child, are similar as well.
And the underlying idea that perhaps the mothers, Casey Anthony over there and my client were neglectful because of some desire for individual gratification or just because it wasn`t convenient to them --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? I`m having a hard time hearing you, sir. Hold on a second. I`m having a hard time -- are you on a cell phone?
BROWN: Yes, I am.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Well, that`s a no-no. You`re supposed to call on a hard line.
BROWN: All right, well, where I am I don`t have a hard line.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on, sir.
BROWN: Where I am, I don`t have a hard line available.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. We`ll see if we can get a better connection. Or walk outside. Or if you`re inside, walk outside somewhere so we can hear you.
I want to go to Casey Jordan. I don`t know if you can see the video but this woman looks eerily like Casey Anthony. They`re both 2-year-old children. It`s a bizarre similarity. It`s all happening in the same area. What is your reaction to that, Casey Jordan?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, the number one thing I really want to know about Tiffany Mitchell is whether or not she had a prescription for oxycodone or whether it was an illegal pill that she had in her home. And again, a lot of the speculation about Casey Anthony is that she perhaps used the chloroform to drug Caylee. We`ll never know the answers to this so that she could go out and party.
We call it the freedom land syndrome where some mothers give their kids drug, even Benadryl so that they can put the kids to sleep. Even if it`s just getting a night off without kids crying or bugging them.
So I`m very curious to know if she had a prescription for oxycodone. And of course, I`m sure if she did, it said "keep out of reach of children". So the question is going to be, can she convince somebody that it was an accident.
Already it`s negligence if you ask me, if she`s leaving a drug on her night stand where her 2-year-old can get it. But if she didn`t have a prescription for that, she`s in big trouble. And if it can be shown that the dose of oxycodone in this child`s system exceeded that one tablet she claimed the child accidentally took, then they`re going to look into whether or not this mother perhaps is drugging her child, perhaps to help her sleep or to keep her quiet. This is going to be part of the investigation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, I hesitate to go back to Jimmy Brown. But let me just ask you a yes or no, and you can shout it out, Jimmy. Did your client have a prescription for oxycodone? Because it`s obviously a drug that is often misused. In fact, its nickname is hillbilly heroin. Did she have a prescription?
BROWN: Well, the issue really is not that. The issue legally is whether there was culpable negligence or not. If the pill was left on the night stand --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she have a prescription, though?
BROWN: That`s not a legal issue.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did she have a prescription? Yes or no; could you just give me that one, sir?
BROWN: Well, no, because it`s not relevant to the legal issue (INAUDIBLE) --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is that a no?
BROWN: It`s a no I will not -- it`s not relevant to the case. (INAUDIBLE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, you`re breaking up. Sorry. Brad Conway, first of all, let me say, this woman is innocent until proven guilty.
BRAD CONWAY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s been released on bail. We want to be fair. That`s why we had her attorney on. Unfortunately it`s hard to hear him. But we`ll have him back. Maybe he can sit next to me next time.
But the bigger point is that there are a lot of Casey Anthony-type cases out there. And little children caught in the cross hairs of a very complex world where have you pick up one little thing off a table that`s the wrong thing and your life is over.
CONWAY: Well, there are superficial, you know, similarities between the two cases. But in the Mitchell case, you know, if there`s a drug that`s laid out on the table and the child accidentally takes it and the parent admits to what happened, it`s a tragic accident. Once they try to cover it up, once they try to hide it, that`s when we emotionally react and we move into a different area and we want to prosecute people for being negligent and for doing something that they ought to know better than doing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, Brad.
Casey Anthony caught on tape; watch never before seen jailhouse videos only the jury saw. And that`s tonight on "NANCY GRACE". Nancy, just a couple of minutes away at the top of the hour right here on HLN.
Coming up, shocking details on Arnold Schwarzenegger`s lawsuit; I`m going to talk exclusively to a family that is very upset with "The Terminator".
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arnold Schwarzenegger essentially just said that it`s ok to stab other people. It`s ok to destroy evidence as long as you come from a connected family.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, no, he didn`t. Yes, he did.
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ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, ACTOR: You take it one day at a time.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would love to hear what Maria`s family is saying right now as Arnold comes clean about his secret love child with a staffer.
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MIKE WALTERS, TMZ: For over ten years he had a love child that his wife and his family didn`t know about.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was living a lie as he campaigned for governor.
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CONAN O`BRIEN, TALK SHOW HOST: California officials -- I don`t know if you heard this -- but they are now claiming that the census failed to count over a million residents of the state. Yes. So my question is: how did Schwarzenegger manage to cover up that many children? That`s what I want to know. How did he do it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would have to wonder if Maria did know something about it.
SCHWARZENEGGER: We both love each other very much.
O`BRIEN: You guys don`t say a word to anybody. When the census man cops, you won`t answer the door, you understand?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s been a year Arnold Schwarzenegger would love to forget. And it`s only delighted (ph) people. After leaving the governor`s mansion, Arnold`s secret love child with the housekeeper was discovered. His wife Maria Shriver filed for divorce and now Schwarzenegger is being sued by the family of a slain college student.
22-year-old Luis Santos was stabbed to death near a San Diego frat house back in 2008. Esteban Nunez pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to 16 years, but the day before Arnold Schwarzenegger left office, he cut that guy`s sentence in half. Why? Perhaps it has something to do with Arnold`s good buddy who just happens to be the killer`s father.
Here is Arnold with former California assembly speaker Fabian Nunez. Watch as Arnold is confronted over this coincidence.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you wait until the last minute, sir, before you left office? Was it a favor for Fabian Nunez, Governor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, Governor. How are you?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Don`t ask me the same question, ok, because otherwise you`re boring the hell out of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I mean I think a lot of people want to know. Why did you reduce the sentence for Esteban Nunez?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL:L Yes, that noise? That`s Arnold Schwarzenegger going -- the slain man`s parents are extremely upset with this commutation. And they are my exclusive guests tonight.
But first TMZ`s Mike Walters has the latest drama surrounding Arnold`s scandalous year. Mike, tell us about the divorce, the new house, what`s going on?
WALTERS: Well, Jane, Arnold and Maria are just now dividing up the huge estate that they both earned in their 25-year marriage, over $400 million. And the first thing that happened was Arnold is going to stay in the home that they shared. Maria, though, has just purchased a $10 million home three miles away from the family home because remember, they have the children and they want to be able to parent together.
I`m told actually it`s been a really easy process, probably because Arnold is just saying fine, you can have it, you can have it, you can have it. He doesn`t want to challenge her right now and take this to court. They`re doing it privately. And they`re talking about how to split this massive estate, like I said, really easy process so far.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I hear it`s going to be -- isn`t she in line to get something like -- I had heard reports, I have no idea, tell me I`m wrong, $200 million?
WALTERS: Yes. You know, the reality is they`ve been together so long and when they came into the marriage, the estate was so small that it`s community property. She will get 50 percent of that $400 million. So in the end after it`s all said and done, she`ll get around $200 million.
But you know what, she wants this house and she wants it now. And they`re actually building it. It`s beautiful here in Brentwood. She`s already purchased that. She`s just started splitting the estate with him. But in the end they`ll split it in half, $200 million and $200 million.
But fun fact, Arnold has been hanging out with his children. We just got pictures in of him with his son Patrick, taking him on his first day on his new job. He works for Rick Caruso, a guy who own the (INAUDIBLE) of a big mall here in Los Angeles.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
WALTERS: So, you know, he is doing the dad thing and taking his son to his first day on the job. So you`ve got to give him credit for that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He can spend time with his son but there`s somebody who can`t spend time with his son and these are my very special guests tonight. The parents of Luis Santos who was killed, Kathy and Fred Santos; they have filed a lawsuit against Arnold Schwarzenegger because of a commutation of a man who was involved in the death of their son.
I want to start with Fred; first of all, what`s your reaction, sir, to this commutation that slashes approximately in half the sentence of a man who was involved in the death of your son?
FRED SANTOS, FATHER OF SLAIN STUDENT: Well, we were totally shocked. We were blind-sided. We had no idea that it even has taken place. We found out about the commutation when a reporter called us at home and asked us for our reaction to what the governor has done. And we have no idea what the governor has done that pertained to my family.
So we told the reporter we would call them back and we went online to find out what exactly did Arnold Schwarzenegger do. That`s when we found out that he had reduced the sentence of our son`s murderer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, now, the person who pleaded guilty to manslaughter in your son`s case, and your son was a college student. He had a whole life ahead of him. And apparently there was this fight, right? And he was stabbed. And the person who pleaded guilty to manslaughter, my understanding is that he didn`t actually do the stabbing but he was involved and he pleaded guilty to manslaughter in connection with the death of your son. And --
KATHY SANTOS, MOTHER OF SLAIN STUDENT: Actually, it was --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He is the son of Fabian Nunez, who used to be the California assembly speaker and is a buddy of Arnold Schwarzenegger. So let`s listen to what this former California assembly speaker, the father of the guy who you`re looking at here, what he had to say.
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FABIAN NUNEZ, SON PLEADED GUILTY TO MANSLAUGHTER: This case has been politicized from the beginning and that our hope is that in a different court setting, that folks will see the facts for what they are.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So I want to bring in the attorney for the parents, Nina Salarno Ashford, you`re the attorney for the Santos family. What is your reaction? And think about this because we`re going to get your response on the other side of the break, to Arnold Schwarzenegger saying -- well, he told this to Newsweek.
"Hello, of course you help a friend. I mean, of course, I feel good about the decision. I don`t apologize for it. I understand the parents` anger. I would probably feel the same way. My office definitely made a mistake by not notifying the parents."
The reaction on the other side.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why did you wait until the last minute, sir, before you left office? Was it a favor for Fabian Nunez, Governor?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good morning, Governor. How are you?
SCHWARZENEGGER: Don`t ask me the same question, ok, because otherwise you`re boring the hell out of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I mean I think a lot of people want to know. Why did you reduce the sentence for Esteban Nunez?
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now it all goes back to 2008. A young man, Luis Santos, who was a college student, is in a fight and he dies tragically and Esteban Nunez, who is the son of the former -- what is it -- a bigwig, a California bigwig, pleads guilty to voluntary manslaughter. He apparently didn`t actually do the stabbing. But he was there and he was involved. And now because his dad is this big time politician -- or was, anyway, former state assemblyman -- Arnold Schwarzenegger commutes his sentence on the way out of office. And you see them. There they are together.
So I want to go to Nina Salarno Ashford, you`re the attorney for the Santos family. Arnold Schwarzenegger is totally unapologetic over this commutation. What do you make of it?
NINA SALARNO ASHFORD, ATTORNEY FOR SANTOS FAMILY: I find his actions just reprehensible (ph). And Jane, I need to correct you on one thing. It was never determined who delivered the fatal blow. Governor Schwarzenegger has lied to the people of California. Two men had knives that night, Esteban Nunez having one. Both stabbed Luis Santos. It was never deliver determined who delivered the fatal blow.
So when he said that part of his commutation that he was not the actual killer, that was actually a lie, which goes along with his unconscionable action of doing this. He violated the California law.
In 2008, 6.2 million voters in California decided victims had enforceable rights in our system and had the right to be heard. The Santos family had the right not only to notice of the commutation, to be heard by the governor, to have their safety considered and to be a part of the process.
The former governor knew that. He chose to violate the law. He`s chosen to lie as to why he did it and he`s chosen to do it as a political favor. His actions and the fact that he has no remorse for his actions -- just, it`s unfathomable the way he`s handled this. And we`ve had to turn to the courts --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. And the convict we`re talking about is the son of former assembly speaker, Fabian Nunez who was tight with Arnold Schwarzenegger when Arnold was the governor and Arnold Schwarzenegger admits that.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
ASHFORD: Not only was he tight with him. Fabian Nunez`s business partner was one of the political advisers to the former governor. That`s how tight they are. So it goes even deeper than the politics.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So justice is supposed to be blind, but it`s not. I want to go to Kathy Santos. What was your reaction, Kathy, when you found out that this happened and you were not even informed, you and your husband were not even informed, as required by law?
K. SANTOS: Well, we were very angry. And this was not a fight, this was an ambush. Our son and his friends were attacked violently and viciously by people with knives and our son`s group was not armed. So he was a victim already, killed in such a violent action and now to be disrespected by the governor, by undoing the work of the courts is just -- it`s unbelievable that he would do this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Final thoughts in a moment.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kathy Santos, what would you say to Arnold Schwarzenegger about his commuting the sentence of a man involved in your son`s violent death?
K. SANTOS: I want to ask him why he was such a coward and did this in such a quiet way during the last hour of his office. Why didn`t he have the decency to contact the district attorney or to let us know with a heads up? Why was this done on the down low, quietly and secretively? We`d like to know the answer to that. We`d also like to overturn this commutation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you would like to see this man, who was involved in the death of your son, the violent death, serve his entire sentence. And I would certainly agree that justice should be blind and it should not be determined based on who Arnold Schwarzenegger is buddies with.
That`s all the time we have now.
"Nancy Grace" is up next.
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