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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Controversial Clinic; Trillion Dollar Showdown; Egypt in Crisis; Video Released in Jaycee Dugard Case; "He Made Tough Guys Shake"
Aired July 15, 2011 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening, everyone.
We begin tonight "Keeping Them Honest" with the husband of presidential candidate Michele Bachmann speaking out about the counseling business they co-own, breaking his silence after mounting attention and allegations that the clinic engages in so-called reparative therapy.
The Bachmanns own two clinics offering Christian-based marriage counseling and a host of services including reparative therapy which is based on the theory that gay people can be turned into heterosexuals through a combination of prayer and willpower.
Nearly all mainstream medical and psychological associations say there's no evidence that it works and there's plenty of evidence in fact that it can be hurtful and harmful. For days now, both Congresswoman Bachmann and her husband have refused to answer questions about it.
But in today's issue of the Bachmanns' hometown paper, "The Minneapolis Star Tribune", Mr. Bachmann defends the clinics, the paper reporting he did not deny that he and other counselors have attempted to help gay patients become heterosexuals, but he said it is not a special interest of the business and only occurred at clients' request.
"Will I address it?" He was quoted as saying he told the paper. "Certainly we'll talk about it," adding -- quote -- "Is it a remedy form that I typically would use? It is at the client's discretion."
In a newspaper interview with "Minneapolis City Pages" five years ago, Mr. Bachmann flat-out denied his practice specialized in reparative therapy. Back then according to the paper responding to such allegations, Mr. Bachmann told "City Pages" -- quote -- "That's a false statement."
The most he would say about it back then was -- quote -- "If someone is interested in talking to us about their homosexuality we're open to talking about that. But if someone comes in a homosexual and they want to stay homosexual I don't have a problem with that."
Mr. Bachmann says reparative therapy is not a focus at Bachmann and Associates. But according to an undercover video made by a gay advocacy group called Truth Wins Out, in the lobby of one of Bachmann's clinics they offer this book written by a woman named Janet Boynes, who says she's an ex-lesbian and claims to have cured herself of her same-sex orientation. Behind it is a placard written by Marcus Bachmann himself personally recommending the book saying -- quote -- "She speaks to the heart of the matter and gives practical insights of truth to set people free."
And here's one of several hidden camera video conversations a man posing as a client for Truth Wins Out had with one of the clinic counselors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would you suggest to me like a treatment plan type of thing, yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can definitely pray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can actually leave homosexuality completely and become heterosexual?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, yes, definitely, definitely. Oh, I believe all about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it's happened before. It really has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, a counselor at Bachmann and Associates suggesting he pray the gay away, suggesting it's worked before.
We interviewed a man named Andrew Ramirez also who says he encountered similar suggestions back in 2004 as a client at the clinic. He spoke recently about it with CNN's Jim Acosta.
ANDREW RAMIREZ, FORMER PATIENT: It was therapy that would help me change from being homosexual to straight.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's how he described it?
ACOSTA: He basically said, if you do this, what -- you wouldn't be gay anymore?
RAMIREZ: If I did this and worked his therapy program, God could perform a miracle and I could no longer be gay.
ACOSTA (voice-over): Ramirez says he was assigned a therapy program consisting of prayer and reading Bible passages. He also says he was told he would be mentored by an ex-lesbian minister. And if none of that worked, Ramirez says the counselor had another idea. (on camera): He suggested to you -- what?
RAMIREZ: Not acting out on my same-sex attractions and living a life of celibacy.
ACOSTA: That was an alternative to being gay?
COOPER: Well, that was in 2004.
Now, in 2006 Mr. Bachmann denied his practice specialized in such therapy. Today he says it's only done at the client's request. Congresswoman Bachmann continues to remain silent on the issues of the clinics which she co-owns, but over the years she's had plenty to say about her opposition to and dislike of homosexuality.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is an earthquake issue. This will change our state forever, because the immediate consequence if gay marriage goes through is that K-12 little children will be forced to learn that homosexuality is normal and natural and that perhaps they should try it.
If you're involved in the gay and lesbian lifestyle, it's bondage. It is personal bondage, personal despair and personal enslavement.
This is not funny. It's a very sad life. It's part of Satan, I think, to say "This is gay." It's anything but gay. It's profoundly sad to recognize that almost all, if not all, individuals who have gone into the lifestyle have been abused at one time in their life, either by a male or by a female.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: She didn't provide any evidence of that -- Michele Bachmann over the years.
Marcus Bachmann has also weighed in on a Christian radio show and that's caused some controversy. His words stirred up a storm because they suggested he was likening gay teenagers to barbarians. But he now tells "The Star Tribune" his remarks have been taken out of context. And in fact he says that the recording was actually doctored.
"Keeping Them Honest," the recording shows no technical signs of editing and a host of the radio program agrees. Here's the clip as it ran.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MARCUS BACHMANN, HUSBAND OF MICHELE BACHMANN: There's that curiosity. But again, we -- we like it is as if we have to understand, barbarians need to be educated. They need to be disciplined, and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, Mr. Bachmann is saying now he was comparing kids to barbarians. The radio host agrees. Here's a fuller version of the clip. And you can decide for yourself.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome back to point of view. Dr. Marcus Bachmann is my guest. And the time is going way too fast. I have so many questions for you, Dr. Bachmann.
And this one, since you also pay attention to the culture wars, this has been swirling around lately because of this particular letter that came down from the American College of Pediatricians cautioning schools to stop promoting homosexual identity to children.
And yesterday "The Wall Street Journal" came out with an article, what do you say when your teenager says she's gay? What do you say to Christian parents who come up with this?
M. BACHMANN: Well, I think you clearly say what -- what is the understanding of God's word on homosexuality.
And I think that this is no mystery that a child or pre- adolescent, particularly adolescents, will question and wonder about sexuality. That's nothing new under the sun since the beginning of time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
M. BACHMANN: But I don't think we should take that, because we wonder, or we think, or we question, does that takes us down the road of homosexuality?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you add the word experiment to that?
M. BACHMANN: Well, certainly. There is that -- there's that curiosity. But again, we -- we like it is as if we have to understand, barbarians need to be educated. They need to be disciplined and just because someone feels it or thinks it doesn't mean that we're supposed to go down that road.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, you can decide for yourself what Mr. Bachmann meant by that statement.
Now, Jim Acosta did the initial reporting on the story. He hasn't stopped yet. He joins us now.
Jim, Marcus Bachmann said in the interview today with "The Minneapolis Star Tribune" that converting gay patients is not a special interest of his clinic. It would only be attempted at the client's request.
Now, on that Truth Wins Out video, it does seem like the guy who made the undercover tape said to the counselor he was interested in changing his orientation, which got the conversation going. The family of the young man who you spoke to who went there in 2004, what did he say about that?
ACOSTA: Well, Anderson, that young man we interviewed for our story earlier this week, Andrew Ramirez, said he and his mother turned to Bachmann and Associates for counseling after being referred to the clinic by a friend.
Ramirez says they were told Bachmann was a place to turn for teenagers who wanted to change from gay to straight. And you mentioned that photo taken by a gay rights activist who went into the Bachmann clinic undercover. It is a picture of that book you said written by a self-described ex-lesbian named Janet Boynes.
In her book, Boynes claims she was able to use her faith to change her sexual orientation to straight. And above that book is an endorsement from Marcus Bachmann. Not to mention that interview you just played from the radio, the host asked Dr. Bachmann what parents should do if their teenagers believe they're gay.
COOPER: And Jim, Bachmann also didn't deny that this kind of therapy is going on at his clinic, but it's not in any way accepted therapy by any mainstream medical organization or psychological organization.
ACOSTA: That's right. Anderson, a therapy aimed at changing a person's sexual orientation is frowned upon by mental health experts.
Bachmann -- Bachmann says he's not seeking clients who want this kind of therapy, but the guidelines from the American Psychological Association are pretty clear as to what counselors should do when a patient with this issue comes for help.
Here's a statement from that group that's pretty clear. It says -- quote -- "There is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation." And the group, Anderson, says that that kind of therapy, reparative therapy, can do harm to patients.
COOPER: And Michele Bachmann is still kind of remaining silent on this whole thing, right?
ACOSTA: That's right. The campaign is not saying much. A spokesperson sent out a statement to me this evening saying -- quote -- "Mr. Bachmann has spoken. The Bachmann for president campaign is focused on the issues that people are concerned about, jobs, the economy," and no more on the subject for now, Anderson.
I tried to ask Michele Bachmann about this at a press conference on Wednesday, and there was no response. COOPER: Jim Acosta, I appreciate the reporting. Thanks.
There is, of course, a political dimension to the story. Congresswoman Bachmann is riding high in the polls especially in Iowa where Christian conservatives frequently dominate Republican caucuses.
I talked about the impact this story may have or probably won't have there and nationwide with Democratic strategist Paul Begala and Ari Fleischer, former press secretary in the George W. Bush administration. Currently, he's on Twitter @AriFleischer. We spoke earlier.
COOPER: Paul, let me start with you.
Do you believe the Bachmann -- Mr. Bachmann's explanation that this isn't the focus of his clinic though he doesn't deny that he and his counselors would try reparative therapy and have tried it? Do you buy that, his explanation? Because in the investigation that was done by that group with the hidden camera, I mean, in his lobby they are selling a book by somebody who claims to be ex-gay talking about getting out of being gay.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, his position seems to be, I will practice a crackpot theory if people ask me to practice a crackpot theory. And what if somebody comes in and says will you try Santeria (ph) or voodoo or astrology or any number of other crackpot theories? Would he adopt them?
And that's what this is. The notion that -- first of all, they call it reparative, like your sexual identity is like a muffler or something; you've got to take it in the shop and repair it. It's a crackpot theory and its bigotry.
Now, having said that, I do think Democrats in the left have to be careful here, because he's not the candidate; I never like going after people's spouses. I really don't. She owns a piece of the clinic. It's legitimate. I'm more interested in that piece of it, asking Mrs. Bachmann, the congresswoman, the candidate, about this, because I don't think that Michelle Obama or Cindy McCain for that matter or Teresa Heinz Kerry -- there's a long history lately of spouses being mistreated in these campaigns.
I don't want Marcus Bachmann to be mistreated but I want Michele Bachmann to tell us does she believe in this crackpot, bigoted theory.
COOPER: Ari, what do you think about that? Because I mean, on this program, we did this a couple of days ago, this as a story mainly because Michele Bachmann was refusing to answer questions about it when asked point blank and because seemingly Mr. Bachmann's statements -- and she's a co-owner of this clinic and Mr. Bachmann's statements didn't seem to be squaring up with what his former patients were telling us.
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, Anderson, if somebody came up to me and said they were gay and they wanted to have advice on how not to be gay, I would say, why on earth would you ask for that? You should be proud of who you are. End of story.
But if somebody goes to a Christian counseling clinic and says, "I need help, I don't want to be gay, I want to be something else," that really is between the person who goes to that clinic, a Christian clinic, and whoever the practitioners are on the other end, in this case a Christian adviser.
So I think you do have to be careful here. It's almost as if somebody of a faith goes to their priest and asks for advice about their own practices. For those of us who aren't -- belong to that, it's a little hard to weigh in. And I think when it comes to spouses especially, it's not the candidate. And they don't -- shouldn't and should not get treated by the same rules that apply to candidates.
BEGALA: But Mrs. Bachmann should answer the question. Do you believe in this crackpot, bigoted theory that there's somehow something to be repaired if you're gay? I can't even say it without laughing because it's such a crackpot theory.
Congresswoman Bachmann apparently participates in the profits of this clinic. And in fact the clinic apparently gets state and federal assistance, which is kind of interesting for an anti-government conservative. She should have to answer whether she supports that kind of bigotry.
FLEISCHER: Well, first of all, it gets Medicaid. And so when Paul makes that case, I guess what he's saying is only Democrats should be able to receive Medicaid funds, no Republicans, which is nonsense.
But secondly, I think when it comes to these -- these very sensitive social issues we have to be careful before we put ourselves in other people's shoes. I don't think it's out of the -- out of the norm for somebody to say, I want to change who I am. And if they do, I told you what my answer would be. I would say, you don't need to, why should you?
But if somebody wanted to and that's what the case here was, who among us has the right to say to them, if that's what you really want, you're not eligible to have it from anybody in any way if that's what you want. I don't think any of us have metaphysical certainty about these issues. What we should have is respect.
And I think you have to leave this on the side, leave it alone, especially when there are so many other issues dealing with the jobs and the deficit. And that's what this election is about.
BEGALA: But then -- then you're no longer practicing therapy. You're no longer practicing psychological counseling. You may be practicing a religion. You may be practicing some sort of prejudice. You may be practicing something, but you should not be getting Medicaid funding to practice health care, mental health care in this case, if -- if what you're doing is pursuing this crackpot theory. (CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: It's a Christian counseling program.
And then Paul, what you would be saying is no counseling program of any religious nature should be able to receive federal funds.
BEGALA: They should not --
FLEISCHER: Different issue, but if that's the case you want to make -- but if that's the case you want to make that's a big different case to make. But this was a Christian facility. And they took Medicaid patients, not necessarily for this procedure or treatment or whatever you call it.
COOPER: Right. There's no evidence they were using Medicaid payments for reparative therapy.
BEGALA: She should be asked about this theory. She's a candidate for president. One out of 10 Americans is gay. She should be asked if she wants to lead a country where at least 10 percent of us are gay or lesbian; does she believe in this crackpot, bigoted theory that somehow there is something to be repaired in our brothers and sisters and sons and daughters who happen to be born gay?
COOPER: We'll have more with Paul and Ari after the break. We'll talk about the debt showdown, President Obama weighing in, the Republicans speaking out. We will also show you some polling numbers the President used in support of his policies. Frankly the President's numbers simply don't add up. We will show you that.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.
And later, thousands of protesters in Cairo's Liberation Square -- this isn't video from the Egyptian uprising this winter. These are new protests. We will tell you why they're happening now.
COOPER: "Raw Politics" tonight: No White House meeting today on the debt crisis, just dueling press conferences, each side demanding the other side get serious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm glad that the congressional leaders don't want to default, but I think the American people expect more than that. They expect that we actually try to solve this problem; we get our fiscal house in order. REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Time and again Republicans have offered serious proposals to cut spending and address these issues. And I think it's time for the Democrats to get serious as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: President Obama repeated his call for a so-called grand bargain on spending and revenue. Speaker Boehner maintained that no deal with tax increases can get through the House. He and other leading Republicans claim Americans support them on this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: Right now this economy is ailing. And we don't believe, nor do I think the American people believe, that raising taxes is the answer.
BOEHNER: The American people understand that tax hikes destroy jobs.
REP. TOM PRICE (R), GEORGIA: I think what the American people appreciate is that you don't reinvigorate the economy by raising taxes.
SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), MINORITY WHIP: Eighty percent of the American people do not want to see taxes raised.
REP. JEB HENSARLING (R), TEXAS: The President's answer? Let's raise taxes on job creators. Mr. President, the American people don't want that.
BOEHNER: The American people don't want us to raise taxes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, last night we showed you numbers from Gallup and others demonstrating that that's just not true. Most Americans will in fact support certain tax increases to lower the debt, only 20 percent in a recent Gallup poll in favor of spending cuts only.
Well, President Obama mentioned that poll today, but keeping him honest, his numbers didn't quite add up. Here's what he said. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: You have 80 percent of the American people who support a balanced approach. Eighty percent of the American people support an approach that includes revenues and includes cuts. So the notion that somehow the American people aren't sold is not the problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, in fact, a large majority does support a mix, but not 80 percent as the President said. Here's the poll again. It does show only 20 percent support for spending cuts only, but add up the number for some kinds of mix and cuts and taxes and you get 69 percent, not the 80 percent the President said, an 11-point difference.
The President also alluded to the same poll when he said that 65 percent of Republicans support that grand bargain he reportedly struck with Speaker Boehner before the Speaker backed away from it. But in fact the poll doesn't ask specifically about the deal, only about a mix of taxes and spending cuts.
I talked about all the budget maneuvering again today with Paul Begala and Ari Fleischer.
COOPER: Paul, three presidential news conferences in two weeks, both sides are trying to get in front of this. At this point, does it look like the White House is making a dent in this battle? From your perspective, how do you see it?
BEGALA: Well, certainly from the polling -- and I'm sorry to be so political, but I'm a political hack. That's why I'm on. Ok?
The President -- there's a Quinnipiac poll that I saw that came out today. The President has a 14-point advantage right now over the Republicans on this.
And I think that's impressive, because he's shown the most political courage. He has put Medicare cuts on the table -- 78 percent of Americans oppose cuts in Medicare -- but he's put that on the table. He's put -- apparently put Social Security on the table. The Republicans won't even put low-hanging fruit like tax breaks for oil companies and for corporate jets on the table.
So I think the American people are being fair. They're saying, look, if we have to take these cuts in programs we believe in, well, we should also ask wealthy Americans to pay a little bit more, too. And that's where the President is. And I think he's definitely on the right side of this.
COOPER: Ari, I mean, in terms of how both sides have been playing this, how do you assess it?
FLEISCHER: Well, number one, if President Obama has put Medicare and Social Security on the table, he's covered them with a tablecloth, because nobody can see what he's talking about.
And you noticed at his news conference today he ducked a question about whether he'd be willing to raise the retirement age. So, so far, it's all fluff and rhetoric from the President and no specifics. In terms of how it's playing, you know, the one big polling piece that we got this week was the President is now down by eight points in a generic poll to a Republican presidential nominee, whoever it would be. That's a huge gap for the President and a step in the wrong direction. So this frankly is the ultimate pox on all your House issues. The public is very frustrated with everybody in Washington who cannot come to an agreement on this. And that's what ultimately is going to drive the endgame here. An agreement has to be reached. It's just not American for us not to be able to pay our bills. That's what we expect as families and what we should expect the government to do.
My bet is at the end they're going to pass some type of medium- term, $500 billion or so, six-month fix all tied to spending cuts. And Barack Obama has no choice but to sign that.
COOPER: Paul, you agree with that, a medium -- some sort of medium fix?
BEGALA: I suppose that may be where it's going. I tend to be more pessimistic about this.
You never go broke betting that the Republicans will be irresponsible and reckless. One Democratic senator e-mailed me a couple of days ago with a quote from Lincoln's historic speech at Cooper Union in 1860 where he said he didn't like politicians whose strategy was, in Lincoln's word, rule or ruin. Either they will rule the country or they will ruin the country.
And that seems to be the Republican strategy. Either let us rule entirely, no compromise, or we will ruin the country by pushing us off this cliff on default, which is really -- I mean, for the party of Lincoln to be practicing the politics of rule or ruin is really pretty tragic.
FLEISCHER: Anderson, what you have to remember, this is what the American people spoke out for in 2010. This is what elected such a tsunami of Republicans to office. People were fed up with deficits, fed up with debt, fed up with spending, fed up with health care reform. They wanted America to move in a different direction from Barack Obama. That's what's now being tested.
COOPER: We've got to leave it there. Ari thanks very much; Paul Begala as well. Have a good weekend.
BEGALA: Thanks. You, too.
COOPER: Well, ahead tonight in the program, former fugitive, reputed mobster and alleged killer James "Whitey" Bulger, you will hear why his name and reputation on the street made even the toughest tough guys tremble.
Also ahead tonight, haunting videotapes made by the couple that kidnapped Jaycee Dugard, held her captive for 18 years. I don't know if you have seen these videos, but they show them stalking children on playgrounds, both of them at the same time. They even videotaped parole officers who visited their home and failed over and over again to find Jaycee Dugard. Every parent should see these tapes.
We will be right back.
COOPER: Deadly violence in Syria again today as anti-government demonstrators clashed with soldiers after Friday prayers. Activists say at least 21 civilians were killed, along with one soldier.
CNN of course is unable to independently verify this report, since we're not allowed to go there. The video we're getting out of Syria shows demonstrations in cities and towns across the country. Syrian state TV once again blamed the violence on what it called "armed groups" and said soldiers were just protecting demonstrators from those groups.
Well, with the ongoing violence there and in Libya, the situation in Egypt has received much less attention. Former President Hosni Mubarak, you know, was swept from power in February. A new era dawned in that country and many of us turned our focus elsewhere.
But in fact, Egypt is in many ways still in crisis. Thousands of Egyptians turned out today in Tahrir Square in Cairo, joining many protesters who have been camped out there since last week. They are vowing to stay until their demands are met by the military council, which is now running the country.
Organizers say they're taking back their revolution because they want faster changes in Egyptian society, including deep economic and social reforms. They want speedy trials for Mubarak and members of his former regime and severe punishments for police officers who killed protesters during the uprisings in January and February.
This week the government tried to appease the protesters by firing nearly 600 police officials. But are there limits to the tolerance of the ruling council? We have seen that in the last few weeks. It's allowing the protests, but said it won't permit disturbance to the public order.
A short time ago, I spoke with Fouad Ajami, who is a senior fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution; and with Khalid Abdalla, an Egyptian protester.
COOPER: Khalid, what do the protesters in Tahrir Square want at this point?
KHALID ABDALLA, EGYPTIAN PROTESTER: Well, I mean I think the fact is that we're in an ongoing struggle. And that's something that's been very clear since Mubarak left power. We have seen -- we've seen multiple attempts by the protesters to get what they want, and we've seen multiple attempts by the army, specifically, to push them back.
And the protesters want to build their country. And they are fed up with -- they're fed up with the speed of change. They're fed up with the army, which has tortured people, which has put people on military trial, which has threatened the press, which has threatened freedoms.
And what we have seen here starting last week on the 8th of July is the first absolutely clear consensus that the way things seem to be going, the way that the army seems to be leading things, is something that they don't accept.
And so what we've got going on right now is a very clear message being sent to the army: things have to change. And I would say what characterizes this sit-in, as opposed to where we were at the beginning, is this is actually a much more difficult sit-in. At the beginning it was easier. At the beginning it was we need to break something. We need to break something from the past. This is very much about making very clear what the future is we want to build.
COOPER: You're saying it's more difficult now. But I mean, back then people were being killed in the streets by pro-Mubarak forces. You still say this is more difficult just because it's more complex, what you're trying to achieve?
ABDALLA: Yes. I mean, what I mean to say is politically it's a lot more complicated. You know, you can unify -- you can unify a large number of people over the fact that you want to get rid of, you know, a dictator. Unifying them over what you want and how you want to build your country is -- is much more difficult. Because, you know, building is much more difficult than breaking with the past.
But that's not to say, of course -- I mean, of course, the difficulty of what we had in the first sit-in was the violence, which was incredibly clear. But -- and since then we've had -- as I said we've had violence. We've had torture. We've had people killed at the hands of the army. We've been threatened. So, you know, now it's about, you know, learning how to -- finding out how to build the country that we want.
COOPER: Fouad, you've always been very optimistic about the so- called Arab Spring. Are you -- are you disappointed by the rate of progress, by the pace of progress in Egypt since Mubarak was toppled?
AJAMI: Absolutely not, Anderson. I think, in fact, as we take a look at what has been happening in Egypt, it's remarkable.
We have to remember that, even though this Egyptian revolt that you witnessed first-hand was largely peaceful, 850 Egyptians were killed at the hands of the security forces. Not the army. That's a very important distinction. So the families of those 850 people want justice.
And it's in the nature of revolutions that they always want to go back to their moment and their place of innocence. And the place and the moment of innocence were these magical 18 days in Liberation Square where the Egyptians claimed the history and drove Pharaoh out of power.
And now there's an account, if you will, between the army which backed the people and didn't kill them as the civilian army is killing its own people, and the population which wants speedier change, faster change. One protestor said he wanted freedom, social justice, and bread. Now, these are very, very big demands. And I think that's what we really are looking at in Egypt today.
COOPER: Khalid, the elections have now been pushed back in Egypt. They were -- they were supposed to be in September. Now they've been pushed back to October-November. They were -- already had been scheduled earlier than many people had wanted other than the Muslim Brotherhood; other, you know, groups who wanted to be able to establish themselves. Do you think it's a good thing that the elections have been pushed back?
ABDALLA: I mean, the elections will come when they will come. And I think when we're talking about the pace of change, I think the pace of change will be -- I mean it will be what it will be. I mean, at the end of the day, one month, two months, doesn't really make that -- that big a difference.
The issue is really the lack of transparency that we've had by the military, who are essentially ruling the country. You know, the fact that we don't know when we have our elections. There are all sorts of elements about how those elections are held that have not been made clear to us. I think those are the issues that are extremely worrying about these upcoming elections.
COOPER: And Fouad, what about the role of the Muslim Brotherhood? I mean there were some fractures in the organization. The youth part of it, I think, broke off, created their own -- their own organization. Are they the biggest power now besides the military in Egypt?
AJAMI: Well, I think that -- I think, of course, they're a big power. If you watch what happened with the Muslim Brotherhood, they stayed out of this protest of Friday. They basically said, "We won't participate. We want to give the government time." So they're trying to sound reasonable, trying to sound responsible.
But the problem for the protestors right now is that there is a prime minister in place who was brought to power by the protesters, and now the protesters want him to do all kinds of things very, very quickly, very rapidly. It's not easy getting rid of the heritage of authoritarianism.
COOPER: And Khalid, I remember talking to you in those heady days when you were sleeping in the Tahrir Square for days at a time. Are you still that optimistic? Are you still that excited?
ABDALLA: Absolutely. I mean what happened here at the beginning of this revolution has -- you know, changed how people view their future, has changed how people view their country.
And what we're seeing and what you're seeing behind me is the fact that they will not rest until they achieve what they want to achieve.
COOPER: Khalid Abdalla, appreciate you coming out; Fouad Ajami, as well. Thank you.
AJAMI: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Still ahead tonight, "Crime & Punishment," haunting videotapes just released by prosecutors, revealing new details about the monsters charged with and convicted of holding Jaycee Dugard captive for 18 years.
Also, Casey Anthony just hours away from freedom; she'll be released from a Florida jail Sunday. She won her case, so why are her attorneys now appealing the verdict? We'll explain that.
COOPER: "Crime & Punishment" tonight: this week we heard for the first time Jaycee Dugard describe in her own words the nightmare that she lived for 18 years as a prisoner of convicted sex predator Phillip Garrido and his wife Nancy.
Tonight we're getting a new glimpse into their very twisted world: haunting videotapes just released by prosecutors showing how the Garridos stalked potential victims at neighborhood playgrounds. Nancy pretending to film her husband singing while actually focusing on kids playing in the background. That's what you're looking at right there.
Also caught on tape, a visit from law enforcement; just one of dozens of examples of parole officers missing an opportunity to find Jaycee.
NANCY GARRIDO, PHILLIP GARRIDO'S WIFE: Those two girls are going to come out of that sliding door.
PHILLIP GARRIDO, CONVICTED SEX PREDATOR: On what side of me?
N. GARRIDO: On your left.
COOPER: The videos are unsteady and sometimes out of focus, but the intent is clear.
N. GARRIDO: See them?
P. GARRIDO: Yes. Do you think anybody can see me?
N. GARRIDO: No.
P. GARRIDO: When you make it look like you're pointing at me. I'll get (INAUDIBLE) but you need to move a little more in front of me.
COOPER: Obtained by prosecutors, the videos show convicted sex offender Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy, apparently on the prowl in parking lots and in playgrounds surrounded by children.
P. GARRIDO: Got me real good?
N. GARRIDO: Yes. I can see you really good.
COOPER: Their team strategy, caught on camera, gives an eerie glimpse on how the duo worked together to observe children and ultimately kidnap 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard as she walked to the bus stop near her Lake Tahoe home on June 10, 1991.
In an interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer, Dugard recounts Garrido's giddiness over her capture.
DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Did they say anything? Did you hear anything?
JAYCEE DUGARD, SURVIVED KIDNAPPING: No, not at first. After we were driving for awhile I heard the driver say, "I can't believe we got away with it." And he started laughing. I think I blacked out again or something. It was like -- the most horrible moment of your life -- times ten.
COOPER: That horrible moment continued for the next 18 years. Held captive in the Garridos' backyard, Dugard was repeatedly raped and gave birth to two children. All the while Phillip Garrido was on federal and state parole.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is this door locked? This door right here?
N. GARRIDO: That's where we sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to turn the light on?
P. GARRIDO: Sure.
COOPER: In another video which was taped by Nancy Garrido, a state parole officer searches the home.
N. GARRIDO: What does a parole agent do for his parolee?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you stay in this front room and I don't have to place you in restraints, because right now I'm searching the house.
COOPER: The search of the home appears to be brief, and the officer never goes into the backyard, where he could have discovered Dugard some 30 feet away.
N. GARRIDO: I don't believe it, either.
P. GARRIDO: I don't understand. I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do.
N. GARRIDO: I know it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're on parole.
COOPER: Parole officers visited Garrido 60 times at his home -- 60 times. Not once did they notice what was happening in the backyard.
In her interview with ABC, Dugard recounts the one time she came face-to-face with a parole officer but was too afraid to tell him the truth.
DUGARD: I actually talked to one of the agents. And the agent proceeded to give Phillip his urine test and left. This made me feel like he didn't really care.
COOPER: Luckily, Jaycee Dugard was finally discovered in August 2009, 18 years after being abducted. The Garridos, convicted of kidnapping and rape, are now in prison for life.
From the videos, it's clear law officials failed to do their job. That's the main reason they say the videos were released by the district attorney's office with Dugard's consent in the, quote, "hopes of improving the supervision and detection of sexual predators".
COOPER: So creepy. Earlier I talked about the tapes and what can we learn from them with Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of HLN's "Dr. Drew", and Sunny Hostin, legal contributor for "In Session" on TruTV and a former federal prosecutor.
COOPER: Dr. Drew, I watched these tapes multiple times today. And they are just -- they're so disturbing. And the -- the degree to which this guy's wife was aiding and abetting him and was sort of -- was part of this. It's -- I mean, it boggles the mind.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST, HLN'S "DR. DREW": It boggles the mind now, knowing what we know about this guy and the depravity to which he has sunk.
The fact is, the reason this guy chose this woman is because of her profound dependency needs. And he on some level, psychologically, intuitively or otherwise, knew that he could get her to cooperate with really anything he wanted to do.
You know, his games of mind control are intense, and he found a willing victim here in this woman, who needed to be loved by him more than anything else in her life.
COOPER: This is -- I mean, Sunny, this is a registered sex offender videotaping kids in a playground. It's a parent's worst nightmare. Is there anything one can do to, you know, protect kids at a playground like this?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: No. I mean in a public playground, certainly, people can take pictures. And there have been states that have tried to pass laws to prevent that, and that has -- those efforts have failed.
But I will say this. I think the problem here was in the federal supervision and the state supervision. He was a registered sex offender. And if people do their jobs and parole agents do their jobs, probation agents do their jobs, when they go and they search people's homes, these sex offenders' homes, they find evidence like this. They find the videotapes. They find the child pornography. They find the photographs.
And so, I think in this case the system really, really failed. And that's really the tragedy here.
COOPER: And I mean, for parents watching tonight, Dr. Drew, who might be worried some pedophile could be lurking around their kids' playgrounds, I mean, I guess you'd look for somebody with a video camera?
PINSKY: Well, no, it's not as simple as that. It's even frankly -- I don't want to make people paranoid, but assume -- assume the worst. I mean if these stories lately have not taught us anything, it is that depravity exists in our world, and sometimes it comes out of nowhere.
There's not as though they wear a sign or a sandwich board that lets you know. There's nothing absolutely characteristic about them physically or their behavior. That you need to have eyes on kids at all times. And we just live in a world where these things exist, and they're much more common than we'd like to admit.
We've been through a period of maybe 20 or 30 years where people debated how pervasive these problems are. Now it's apparent. Now it's obvious. It exists, and we have to be vigilant.
COOPER: Well, also just the amount of thought that went into it, you know, buying this video camera. He's talking to his wife about the video camera and sort of instructing her in how to use it. And his whole plan of sitting there singing, you know, while -- while she's secretly videotaping what's happening around him. It's just -- I don't know. I just find this videotape so, so disturbing.
PINSKY: It's -- Anderson, it's spooky, and it's disgusting. And again, you've got to remember something. This is just not the average perpetrator. This is not somebody -- one message I have to people that have these sorts of impulses is, please get help before you hurt yourself or somebody else. There are things that can be done.
But this is more than that. This is depravity. This is a depraved person.
COOPER: The fact that there is video where you actually see the parole officer in the house --
COOPER: -- and with the knowledge of, you know, what was happening in the very backyard, it's just -- it's stunning to actually see it.
HOSTIN: It really is stunning. And what I thought was really fascinating is that it was Nancy Garrido that was taking the video and she was very combative with the parole agent. He got out of there very quickly. And he never went into the backyard.
So this is, I think, going to be a tool for prosecutors and for investigators and parole agents and probation officers to really look at and figure out how these predators work, all the possibilities that -- that they need to look into when supervising these sexual predators.
COOPER: The sex offenders who I've interviewed are really the most manipulative people I've ever met in terms of -- I mean, some of them were grooming, you know, children and families to try to molest them. Some of them were people who had grabbed kids.
PINSKY: It's not a passing fancy. It's not a hobby. It is a profound, intense drive and attraction. And in those situations where you can treat, it takes a lot of work and really on a daily basis. In those situations where, again as I've said now several times, where it's actually becomes depraved, it is our legal system that must step in and protect our children.
COOPER: All right. Dr. Drew, appreciate it; Sunny Hostin, as well.
COOPER: Coming up, a fascinating new look at James "Whitey" Bulger, notorious alleged gangster turned fugitive. We'll hear from a former drug runner who used to work with Bulger. He says Bulger was the guy who made even the toughest guy shake. That's next.
COOPER: Tonight a look at what James "Whitey" Bulger was really like during his alleged reign as one of Boston's most notorious gangsters. Bulger now faces murder and racketeering charges after being on the run for 16 years. Back in the day Bulger was known as the guy who controlled everything that happened in south Boston.
Deborah Feyerick spoke with a former drug runner who knew him.
JOHN SHEA, FORMER DRUG RUNNER: I met "Whitey" when I was between the ages of 15 and 16.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John Shea, nicknamed "Red", grew up in the tight-knit world of south Boston's old colony housing projects. Shea, a golden glove boxer with a wild streak, wanted to be just like reputed crime boss "Whitey" Bulger and the Irish gangsters who ran Southie.
SHEA: Over there is our colony projects. Over here is the harbor projects where "Whitey" grew up. And Santa Monica church. Next to Santa Monica church around the Rotary is the liquor store and the video store where was his base of operations. The guy was legendary.
FEYERICK: Shea says Bulger was the undisputed king of Southie.
SHEA: He wanted to be as strong and as powerful and as rich as he could be.
Feyerick: "Whitey" was the toughest of them all.
SHEA: Are you kidding? He made tough guys shake. He made them shake.
FEYERICK: Raised by a single mom, Shea looked up to Bulger as a father figure and mentor. Shea's boxing skills came in handy. He says he worked for Bulger first as an enforcer, shaking down debtors. Then in a bizarre initiation, Bulger took Shea to a basement and pulled a gun.
SHEA: It was called a test. And that's when I had become "the boss" after that.
FEYERICK: And that put you in charge of the drugs?
SHEA: That put me in charge of the drugs.
FEYERICK: In 1990, Shea was convicted of cocaine trafficking. He served 12 years, refusing to cooperate in exchange for a shorter sentence.
SHEA: They wanted "Whitey" through me. And I wouldn't give him up. They could have threatened me with the electric chair and I wouldn't have gave him up --- ever.
FEYERICK: Because in Southie, it was ok to be a criminal but not a rat. And when Shea in prison found out Bulger was a FBI informant?
SHEA: It was almost like someone reached through the phone line down my throat and tore my heart out. So that's what it is for me because I honored the code.
FEYERICK: And they played you.
SHEA: And they played me because "Whitey" knew.
FEYERICK: As Bulger went on the run, his betrayal out in the open, his 20-year reign as Boston's most notorious mob boss came to an end.
SHEA: I would have died for that guy. I would have died for him.
FEYERICK: With two books to his credit, Shea says he's taken responsibility for his early life and is now a changed man. As for the former king of Southie -- Shea believes he's still calling the shots.
SHEA: He is playing them. Is he giving them information? Is he talking to them? You guarantee he is. He started the minute they captured him. But psychologically, he's playing them -- guaranteed.
FEYERICK: Deborah Feyerick, CNN, Boston.
COOPER: Coming up: how this week's CNN Hero turned her own backyard garden as a way to plant seeds of hope for thousands of families. Her story next.
COOPER: Tonight's CNN Hero is a woman whose family, like so many others, got hit really hard by the recession. She decided that to feed her family, she'd have to count on her own backyard, her own garden.
Now, she's helping other families do the same. Here's her story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLLY HIRSHBERG, CNN HERO OF THE WEEK: I love the United States. I think it's a wonderful place to live. It's scary to me that with so much land and so much abundance that people are hungry.
In 2008, my husband lost his job. It was a very, very difficult time. And the first thing we did was plant a garden. If you grow your own food, you never have to worry about how you're going to feed your family.
We thought if we can help others garden, then we can help them pull themselves up out of poverty.
I'm Holly Hirshberg. And we fight hunger in the United States by giving away seeds and teaching people to grow their own food.
We pack enough seeds to grow food for a family of four. We want to help people provide for themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an eggplant and I've already harvested from it. My garden is in front of my apartment. I can grow tomatoes and bell pepper in just flower pots. If it wasn't for my garden, then I wouldn't be able to afford fresh produce at all.
HIRSHBERG: Here we have a tomatillo plant. These were all from seeds from the dinner garden. We have provided over 65,000 seed packs to individuals and families all over the country. We also have provided seeds for over 180 community gardens.
Who wants to grow vegetables?
We see a lot of families whose children only eat when they get a free meal at school. When they are at home, we really want them to have the best nutrition possible and certainly you can't do better than garden veggies.
I'm not a master gardener. I wouldn't even say I'm a good gardener. I am an enthusiastic gardener. The seeds do all the work.
We provide the seeds. We help you grow them. You eat the food to fight hunger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A great lady. Remember, each one of these year's heroes is chosen from people that you tell us about. So to nominate someone you know, go to cnnheroes.com.
That's it for 360. Thanks for watching.
Piers Morgan starts now.
Have a great weekend.