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Dr. Drew
Where Is Casey Anthony?; Interview With La Toya Jackson
Aired July 19, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Breaking news. Casey Anthony`s in Arizona. No she`s in Mexico. No, no, Puerto Rico. Back in Florida.
We do know one thing. She will not show up in an X-rated film. Seems Casey is too hot for porn to handle.
And later, La Toya Jackson. She is here and she is defending the man about to be tried in Michael`s death. Let`s go figure this out.
Casey Anthony and Michael Jackson. What do the mother accused and found not guilty of killing her daughter and the pop icon have in common? Turned out something we can relate to.
Its families, families behaving a certain way. The Anthony`s and the Jackson`s have played out very publicly allowing us to see the dynamics of their families and inner-workings.
Here`s what`s interesting about each. There`s untimely death involved. Each tragedy has generated worldwide attention. There are accusations of abuse in both families. And the instinct to protect in circle the wagon is clear in both the Anthony`s and the Jackson`s.
What does this have to do with you and your family?
Now, I`d like to suggest this. Before we judge how they behaved, ask yourself how you`d react if your sister or your brother or mother was savaged every day in the press by any and everyone? Then get back to me on that. Takes a toll.
Families bend and the most difficult troubled ones break. Keep that in mind as we move on to the next big thing we follow. And interestingly La Toya Jackson with the upcoming trial soon is going to be with us later here in the show.
So Casey Anthony, is she back in Florida? New video in to us tonight from CHN affiliate WFTV, a woman running from an airplane at Orlando executive airport. She`s wearing the same outfit Casey wore before Tuesday, the morning she was released from jail, pink top dark pants. Only difference, pair of flip-flops instead of tennis shoes, sneaker as you guys likes to say.
Is this Casey or a decoy? Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Breaking news: Want to show you this video we just got in. Take a look. Speculation has been running wild on the possible whereabouts of Casey Anthony.
Casey Anthony could be anywhere from Puerto Rico or Texas or Prescott.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTTER: Many reports saying she made her way to the Orlando executive airports where a lot of private planes fly out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Maybe a plane that went here there and everywhere. It is clear her location is a well-guarded secret.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTTER: George and Cindy are wondering when they`ll talk to Casey but all they`re only getting is a word to a text message that she`s OK.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, NANCY GRACE SHOW: A Tot mom jets off into the night. We will not forget Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: There`s a postcard here from Chicago. And he says sorry you won`t be able to see this.
GRACE: She sees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Now, after this video was released, Casey`s attorney, Jose Baez contacted local stations in Orlando and told them quote, "she is not in Orlando. That is not her. That I can confirm. I will not say anything further as to her whereabouts".
Then he texted another station this, that is not Casey. "Macaluso is having fun with you. I had no knowledge of that." That woman was running from Tony Macaluco`s plane, a former member of the defense team.
There were also reports earlier today Casey was in Carlsbad California down here in South California. Then we heard Arizona. Then Puerto Rico. Then Florida. Where`s Waldo? What`s going on here?
Dylan Howard joins us. He is the senior executive editor of "Start Magazine". He is terribly interested in where Casey is.
Also attorney in defense, Attorney Mark Eiglarsh and Clint House, who is the ex-roommate of Casey`s boyfriend and he testified for the defense during her trial.
All right Dylan, decoy or joke?
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE, STAR MAGAZINE: According to Jose Baez, it was a decoy. The interesting thing is --
PINSKY: By the way, same guy that wanted to put her parents out as decoys. Had you gob smacked yesterday?
HOWARD: It still had me gob smacked last night. I couldn`t be believed that he did that. That said, he`s denying that the person off that plane was indeed Casey Anthony.
But what we`ve been able to establish is that that plane is owned by the former member of the defense team. That plane flew out of San Diego. San Diego`s John Wayne Airport this morning to Baton Rouge. Baton Rouge to St. George Island and George Island to Executive Airport in Orlando, that`s where you see the video from WFTV. And then from Orlando to Palm bait(ph).
Was it Casey Anthony? No one knows. There`s been a report she`s in Arizona. There`s reports she`s being stowed on a media Mogul`s yacht.
There`s been report she`s in Puerto Rico with had phone in tip to write our own line suggesting she`s in every corner of this country. Does anyone know? No we don`t. Does anyone care? I don`t think we do.
PINSKY: I agree. But here we are talking about it?
HOWARD: We`re covering the story because everyone wants to know. But do as a raised last night, do we genuinely believe it`s the right thing to do to identify where she is at the moment and place her at risk?
PINSKY: That`s right. Is this - We have sort of a mob mentality going on where there`s frenzy where people could try to hurt her number one if we do figure out where she is. And number two, what we - are we going to try to interview her if we know where she is or leave her alone?
Everyone agreed, I said this last time and I want to say this again. Look, if this upsets you and you do not want her to capitalize of this, don`t watch programming about it or read papers about it. And people will stop reporting about it and stop talking about it.
HOWARD: I`m slightly concerned of the attorney that owns this private jet if it was indeed a decoy created such an elaborate hoax to dress someone up to like Casey Anthony, to run off a plane and feed into this mentally of hype around this and almost trivializing the death of Caylee Anthony by doing this. That`s quite disturbing.
PINSKY: Yes. I agree. Makes me gob smacked.
Yesterday I talked with Mark Lippman who is George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney. Mark told me that although Casey`s attorney Jose Baez will not tell the Anthony`s where Casey is, he did ask them to participate and elaborate decoy plan upon Casey`s release from jail. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LIPPMAN, GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: As a final thought, I think he wanted to add just another layer. And he had the idea of possibly luring media off his tail and had them think that they were meeting -- my clients were going to meet Casey at Jose`s office.
And suggesting that they just drive out there and have everybody follow them but certainly once the media started to doing that it would have been public information. And right now even though it`s died off quite a bit, I still have quite a lot of safety concerns for my clients.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Clint, is Jose being unfair to the Anthony`s by withholding information about Casey`s whereabouts?
CLINT HOUSE, EX-ROOMMATE OF CASEY`S BOYFRIEND: I don`t really think that he`s being unfair. I really think that the whole entire defense team wants to keep her as safe as they possibly can. But I don`t think he`s unfair to not tell Anthony where Casey is.
PINSKY: Clint, let me ask you this. You knew her fairly well during that infamous 30 days. And you certainly heard what we know about her. What do you think she`s going to do? Is she going to drop out of existence or is the limelight too alluring for her?
HOUSE: I really don`t know. And that`s not really what I`m worried about right now. I`m focused on moving forward with the Caylee`s law movement and the fundraising for Aunt (ph) to really care what she`s going to do from here on out. It`s not my prerogative. It doesn`t matter to me.
PINSKY: Hey, Clint, are you in Orlando?
HOUSE: No. I`m in Jacksonville.
PINSKY: OK. I just really impressed the way the Orlando community is spinning this into a more positive productive direction and I`m glad that it`s going to sound like they maybe spreading across Florida to turn this into something positive. So hats off to that. Whatever we can do to support you on this, please let me know. OK?
HOUSE: Thank you.
PINSKY: OK. Now, remember those 84 chloroform searches the prosecution accused Casey of conducting on the Anthony home computer?
Well, low and behold software where designer John Bradley confirmed that the figure on June 8 when he was called as a witness for the prosecution, he confirmed the 84 whatever was searches. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DRANE-BURDICK, PROSECUTOR: Entry number three, the www.sideslot.com chemistry/chloroform, how many times was that site visited?
JOHN BRADLEY, COMPUTER FORENSICS EXPERT: According to the history, 84 times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That man Bradley is now saying those searches were based on inaccurate data. And in fact the word chloroform was searched only once. Sort of what Cindy said.
The software designer says, he alerted the prosecution of this fact in late June. But his findings were corrected. Mark, this is a big deal. So now what we`re learning, it seems to me -- correct me if I`m wrong on this, I`m certainly no legal expert, if Casey had been found guilty, this would have been a mistrial anyway.
MARK EIGLARSH, ATTORNEY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE: I don`t know about a mistrial but it would have been one of the issues on appeal. And surprisingly, the appellate court would probably not have reversed the conviction because they would have found that error harmless.
And by that I mean they would have looked at all of the other evidence in the case. The question would have been, are there significant amounts of evidence separate from the search to justify a conviction and my strong feeling would have been yes but that all doesn`t matter obviously because there was not sufficient evidence according to this jury.
PINSKY: Mark, they hung a lot on those chloroform searches. They went to great length to make Cindy look as though she was committing perjury. And this again is more consistent with what Cindy reported. I think it would have been a big deal. They hung a lot on that along with the tape --
EIGLARSH: I don`t disagree with you. But you would be surprised if you read appellate decisions around this country how many things are big deals. I thought it was a big deal when an attorney on a death penalty case fell asleep during the trial. But now reports they said it wasn`t during the most critical parts of the trial and uphold the conviction.
So they go a long way in the appellate arena to uphold convictions of people who allegedly kill. In this case, obviously they did harp on that piece of evidence. But doesn`t really matter at this point, does it?
PINSKY: Dylan, I want to switch to you but it will be just brief. We`ve got about a half minute left.
Where is all this going? How do you - are you going to keep reporting? Are we going to keep reporting it? You know what I mean? Tell me, look in your crystal ball and give me the next three months. Is it going to come up and bubble up and would be interesting to us or just going to go away? Fade out? Stay very interesting?
HOWARD: I think inevitably people want to hear from her. But you and I both said last night that we believe that she should go underground for six months.
PINSKY: This could be harmful to her if she doesn`t.
HOWARD: I don`t think there is a genuine appetite for a media outlet to reveal where she is. But while you have part of the defense attorneys that once part of a defense team playing decoy games by dressing someone and running them off a plane, then this continues to turn into hysteria.
Perhaps we need to take a good account way where at the story and should realize that the games are not funny.
PINSKY: Fair enough. Dylan, thank you. You`re going to stay with me for later.
I want to thank you Mark and Clint for joining me in this plot.
Coming up, check this out. The porn industry offers Casey a job. But then they rescind it before she`s released from jail. We`re going to find out exactly why.
And later Michael Jackson`s sister La Toya is here. Hours before the latest legal maneuvering in the Doctor Conrad Murray`s trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT SEDENSKY, ASSOCIATED PRESS: It`s hard to interpret a facial expression but she looked to me like she might be either nervous or holding back tears. She was kind just looking up you know sort towards the ceiling. At sort of thing that she was holding her mouth pretty still. You know I can`t be for sure what she was feeling but it seemed like she was holding back something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIPPMAN (voice-over): So, our strong suspicion that she`s no longer in Orlando. And Mr. Baez said that they - their intent was leave Orlando immediately. I think it would be safer for her for a while if she did leave Orlando but certainly I have no idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: We have breaking news today. Is Casey Anthony back in Florida? Look at that footage.
Our HLN affiliate WFTV shot this video today of a woman running from a private plane at the Orlando Executive Airport. Same pink shirt same dark pants Casey wore the night she was released.
Jose Baez however claims this is not her. The saga continues. Where`s Waldo? Well wherever she is, it looks like she`s not going to be a porn star.
However, that`s how my next guest imagined her however briefly.
Co-chair Steve Hirsch is here. He offered Casey a starring role in one of Vivid adult`s films only to rescind the offer just days later.
Steve put out a statement that read us follows quote, "we are ready to make an offer to Casey to star in one of our feature films but it`s clear to me now however there has been an overwhelmingly negative response to her offer. So we`ve decided to withdraw it.
It`s become obvious to us that Vivid fans and people in general want nothing to do with her. That includes an X-rated film, a movie starring Casey Anthony is not what people want to see."
Steve, I really do appreciate you coming in tonight. I know you`ve got a lot of requests for this. So it`s a big deal that you came in.
STEVE HIRSCH, CO-CHAIRMAN, VIVID ENTERTAINMENT: Thank you.
PINSKY: I`m just curious how you got the backlash? What you heard? You know sort of tell me the story. What were you intending and what happened?
HIRSCH: I hadn`t followed the case at all. But obviously I knew it was going on. As the trial was progressing, we kept getting e-mails from people from in a dotcom, are you going to make her an offer? You`re going to make her an offer? And I hadn`t really thought about it.
Then she was acquitted and the media started wondering what she was going to do next. What kind of offers was she going to get? I thought maybe it would be a good idea to offer her a chance to star in one of our movie. Contacted her attorney, e-mailed him
PINSKY: Baez?
HRISCH: We did. E-mailed him. And then the story got out. And it just --
PINSKY: Let me go back to that e-mail. How did he respond to that? Did he say thank you we`ll take it under consideration. Or was he you know, we`re not interested?
HIRSCH: He didn`t respond. But the truth is he didn`t have very much time to anyway.
PINSKY: OK.
HIRSCH: Once the story got out, it started spreading like wildfire. I got picked up everywhere. Then we started getting the e-mails from people saying don`t do this. This isn`t what we want to see. This isn`t what vivid is about. And I pulled back.
PINSKY: Were they specific about it what upset them? Was it going to tell you know this is - people have very strong feelings about Casey Anthony.
HIRSCH: Certainly I underestimated the emotional response. So when it came, it came hard and heavy. People simply don`t want to see her in an adult movie. Maybe they don`t want to see her not at all but certainly not one of our movies.
PINSKY: Were you caught in some of the -- I keep calling this blood lust. People seem very aggressive about there with their explicit threats. Were there explicit threats to your organization or to you or anyone there at Vivid?
HIRSCH: Not explicit threats but I could tell they were coming from angry people. And certainly I had underestimated like I said the emotional response to the verdict. At that point we were like, this isn`t what we do. We make movies that people want to see. That`s where we want our energies to be. So we pulled back.
PINSKY: If she had said yes, would you have had ambivalence about it personally given what you know now about the case? Might you have been gotten away with anywhere yourself?
HIRSCH: I think I had made the decision that this isn`t something that I personally wanted to be involved in. But the truth is --
PINSKY: You have kids. You`re a family guy. You understand people`s frenzy about this. Does your wife follow this? I mean do people wives have intense feelings.
HIRSCH: She hadn`t really followed the trial either. But you know after this thing started and it was everywhere, she said hang on is this something you really want to do. But by that time I made the decision it was time to pull back.
PINSKY: So you went home and talked about this. And I would worry you would get personally attacked because people really are into this. And people are very intense feelings about this.
HIRSCH: Like I said, I certainly underestimated how emotional people were about this case. As I look back on it, I wish it was something we had never done. It`s not something that we`re not proud of it but we move on.
PINSKY: Very good Steve. Thank you so much for sharing. I do appreciate you coming in, I really do. It`s a very interesting guys.
Now, for any other media outlets there or print outlets wanting to carry stories about her, this is a cautionary tale. And you know all their consumers think about this. You let me media outlets know when you`re upset. It certainly hear somebody that heard what you`re saying.
Next, where would you go if you were Casey Anthony? I`m sure you`ve got some interesting thoughts on this. I`m taking calls after the break.
And Thursday my special primetime interview with Bristol Palin. At pregnancy - her pregnancy at age 17 made national headlines. Although Bristol was once shunning the attention, she told me that today she embraces it as an opportunity to spread word about the struggles of teen mother hood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRISTOL PALIN: My life, my teenage years were cut completely short. I was on the fast track to adulthood in an instant because of that one decision. And truth is just the love of my life. He is everything to me. But do I wish he had a dad involved in his life? Absolutely. And do I wish I had an education and a career path? Absolutely.
(END VIDEO LIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY MASIN, CASEY ANTHONY`S DEFENSE ATTORNET: She`s only 25 years old. Decade from now, hope that she will have some stability in her life. Maybe a husband and be somewhere in Montana and start over. I don`t know.
(END VIDEO LIP)
PINSKTY: Well there you heard defense attorney Cheney Mason talking about what the future could possibly hold for Casey Anthony. What do you think? Could she find a way to live a normal life?
Let`s get to the phones. Sherri in Pennsylvania, you`re up first. Go ahead.
SHERRI, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): hi, Dr. Drew. I just want to make a quick comment. I have worked in the prison legal system for years. And it`s almost guarantee that Casey will continue her lifestyle. She is conditioned to lie and is be self-absorbed. It is all about Casey and there was evidence in her mannerisms in the court room.
PINSKY: You know Sherri I think you`re absolutely right. Those of us who work in mental health or certainly in corrections have this experience all the time. It changed and difficult. But if you want to know the future look at the past patterns and yes generally you see that again in the future.
So one thing I am expecting from Casey is more in vortex. We are all sucked in to her vortexes and there`s more to come. Watch!
Mary Ann in Arkansas, what`s your question?
MARY ANN, ARKANSAS (via telephone): Hi Dr. Drew. My question is if Casey picked up the phone and asked for your help, what would you say? Or what direction would you point her in?
PINKSY: Yes Mary Ann that is a really challenging and astute question. I have to tell you after reporting on this for so long, I really don`t think I`d be in a position to be a caretaker for her.
However, I believe everyone is entitled to careful, quality mental health services. And as such I`d be happy to refer her to somebody. Somebody who could sit and empathize with her and help her build an emotional landscape that is healthier so ultimately she could get on with things.
Because without change and by the way in my mind I think she mainly needs 12 steps work too, we`ll see if time will allow. But all that is something she`s going to have to work very hard on given what she`s been through.
Shawn in Canada, go ahead.
SHAWN, CANADA(via telephone): Hi Dr. Drew. I`ve got a quick question. Do you think Casey should focus on repairing her relation ship with her mom, dad, and brother even though her lawyer disgraced them completely in?
PINSKY: I absolutely do. If they`re willing to find forgives to her, absolutely. I mean listen, these are important relationships in her life. She has to heal. She has to move on, for her to fore sake these things, disgraceful.
I mean it`s already been bad enough. How about she at least become a daughter for awhile and do what`s right as far as a good daughter.
Keith writes. "Do you think if Casey find a way to live a more spiritual life like Cindy intended, does she has a chance to live a better life?
Well, interesting in my experience for somebody like Casey trying to change, some spiritual connection does end up being very important. Not exclusively. There has to be treatment also. But yes that could be very important for her. Help her find meaning, something bigger than her self to attach to. I`m talking about this girl needs that.
Paul e-mailed us asking what`s the worst effect that you`ve seen from a person being incarcerated for an extended period of time.
I have very limited time to talk about this and it`s a complicated issue. But let`s just say that they become institutionalize. They become very savvy. They don`t trust anybody. They learn to manipulate people. And even when you get them in the treatment and started in progress and come close relations, ultimately they`ll fore sake it and really not trust people much at all.
Next, the Michael Jackson case is back just hours from now. Doctor Conrad is charged with men slaughter. We will be all over the trial. La Toya Jackson is here with us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: The world lost an incredible guy.
PINSKY: You lost your brother.
LA TOYA JACKSON: The world lost an incredible guy.
PINSKY (voice-over): One minute away, La Toya Jackson, Michael Jackson`s sister, is here just hours before lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray and the prosecution head to court.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the fact that he was put in the position I truly believe and no one can change my mind, I know this for a fact.
PINSKY: Tell me.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I believe that Dr. Murray was simply the fall guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Dr. Conrad Murray`s attorneys are back in court tomorrow. HLN will be covering the trial of the man accused in the death of Michael Jackson. I sat down with Michael`s sister, La Toya, and I spoke about her new book "Starting Over." In it, she addresses the abusive relationship with her ex-husband. She says, it almost killed her, and she tells us what she thinks happened to her brother. And how Dr. Murray is, in fact, the fall guy for a major cover up. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: He is one of the most successful and influential entertainers ever, she is his sister. Joining me now is La Toya Jackson. La Toya`s new book is "La Toya Starting Over." It is in stores now. La Toya, welcome. Let`s just start with something easy. Why did you write the book?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Drew, I started writing this book in 2008. And I kept putting it of and putting it off, and then finally, I just put it all together, because things kept coming up in my family. Things that were happened in the trial just kept coming up and things of that nature. So, I kept saying well, this is not the time because I don`t want the public to say she`s putting out because of this reason and that reason.
PINSKY: Got it.
LA TOYA JACKSON: So, I will just push it to the side. And then, now, it was appropriate time. And I said OK, why not? This is the time.
PINSKY: I`ve watched you from afar as well, and you strike me as somebody that`s had tremendous personal growth like in the last ten years. I mean, I kind of -- I don`t know where that came from or if you can talk about that, but I remember watching you back when you were married. My eye told me there was something terribly, terribly wrong.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Really?
PINSKY: Why do we start with that and tell us what was wrong.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Absolutely. That`s basically what starting over is about the book. It starts with relationships that people have. It is never too late to start over. Everybody can have the opportunity to start over, and I want him to know that. I was at a point in my life where I didn`t feel or think that I could start over because I was in such an abusive relationship.
PINSKY: And let`s talk about it, because those relationships, they just crush you. They crush your soul, they crush your spirit. right?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Drew, that`s exactly what it -- I`m sorry. What it did to me was that my self-esteem, I had lost all of my self-esteem, my self-worth. And this is what people want you to do. The relationship started, it was very interesting, how it developed and how it happened, because --
PINSKY: Tell us.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, my mother wasn`t able to go with me to Japan, and she asked my father to go along. He wasn`t able to go along as well. So, they asked this guy to go along with me, Gordon, who went with me. When we got there, I was strictly religious. I was strictly Jehovah`s Witness. And I just trusted and believed everybody. And I just thought if you said something, it was the truth, because we were raised, and I was one of those devote over top --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I didn`t know that. Interesting.
LA TOYA JACKSON: And you associate only with each other, with Jehovah Witnesses. So, I didn`t know much about the outside world except for when you perform and you see them, and you hello, and then, you`re back into your religion.
PINSKY: Why do you think you became so hyper religious? Was there a reason for that?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, growing -- that`s all I knew growing up.
PINSKY: But were you searching for something and that you didn`t have, you know, in your relationships or your family that --
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, we all had the opportunity to have that religious background, but myself, Michael and my sister -- my eldest sister, we`re the ones who really stuck with it and just through it all the way. We just believed in it more than anything else. And we felt that we wanted to do things that are proper and that were right and that was according to God, walking in the light of God.
PINSKY: OK. And so, here you are, hyper religious, very religious. You`re in Japan. You`re with this predator?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, he takes me to Japan, of course. And then, when I get there, he takes my passport, and he says you`re not going back home. And then, from there, he takes me to Europe and to -- this is how it all started.
PINSKY: You were kidnapped right away?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes. Right away. And I didn`t see it that way, because the way it was done all to me, I have my passport, oh, no I`ll hold on to it for you. That kind of thing. And then, I was like, do I get my passport back? No, you don`t get your passport. I hold on to it. This one thing kept leading to another, very --
PINSKY: As you talk about it, I remember you back then. You seemed so small and helpless, right?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes.
PINSKY: And you smile when I describe you that way. I`m seeing flashes of it as you talk about even being back here. It wasn`t -- it was scary for me to see you like that.
LA TOYA JACKSON: It was frightening. I`m happy that you were able to see that, because, I didn`t know really what I was into until I was in it. And I didn`t know how far it would go, because I believed in trusting everything that people said, that he said. However, I was frightened, I was timid.
PINSKY: Did he brainwash you? He brainwashed you?
LA TOYA JACKSON: My mother can tell you that a million times over, that`s not my daughter. And it went as far as even going, even further than that, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Your mom had to contend with a lot. Your poor mom.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I mean, I forget the loss of children but just the life that her kids have all lived.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I know. Isn`t that something? It`s just so many of us and so many different personalities and so many roads of the lives --
PINSKY: Was she the anchor of the Jackson Family? She kept everybody glued together.
LA TOYA JACKSON: My mother was. Yes. My mother was the anchor. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes.
LA TOYA JACKSON: And she`s a wonderful mother. And she`s a very strong lady.
PINSKY: Well, she had to have been. She survived all this.
LA TOYA JACKSON: People don`t. They say, oh, she`s so quiet and so timid and so thoughtful. My mother is very strong.
PINSKY: Had to have been (ph).
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes.
PINSKY: And your dad was not easy to contend with, I imagine.
LA TOYA JACKSON: My father is a very strong person. He`s a very -- he was a disciplinarian when we were growing up.
PINSKY: Now, we have some tape, this is actually Michael talking to Oprah about your dad and growing up. He had kind of a harsh story to tell. Do you remember this when he told her this?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, I do.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s take a look at it.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I`ve seen it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: There`s a lot of sadness about my past life and adolescence and my father and all of those things. It just makes me very, very, very sad.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: So, he would tease you? Make fun of you?
MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes.
WINFREY: Did he ever beat you?
MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes, he did.
WINFREY: And that was difficult to take getting beaten and going on stage and performing.
MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is that the father you knew or is that something you didn`t know what was happening?
LA TOYA JACKSON: No, no, no. That`s the father I knew. And I have to tell you, Drew, in all fairness, is that growing up, I think, as children, we see things differently.
PINSKY: Of course.
LA TOYA JACKSON: As we become adults, we see them completely different than we did as a child.
PINSKY: Of course.
LA TOYA JACKSON: And he was simply trying to discipline us. And that`s what he was doing. I think back then in those days, people really spanked their children. When you did something wrong, they would spank you. And that`s what my father did. And, I think it was normal back then. But, today, it`s unheard of.
I think that as he got older, he realized -- because during Michael`s last days, he really contacted my father and he wanted my father`s help for everything that he was doing. He wanted him to save him from a lot of these --
PINSKY: What do you think that was?
LA TOYA JACKSON: We understand our father. We know that our father was doing what he had to do --
PINSKY: But Michael was like my age practically, right?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes. Yes.
PINSKY: And so, he`s calling his dad to help him --
LA TOYA JACKSON: Right, because he was involved in a situation -- it was sort of like the situation -- actually, it is the same situation that I was involved with. And that`s why this book is called "Starting Over." Michael`s not able to start over, and I am.
PINSKY: Michael got some abusive relationships, too?
LA TOYA JACKSON: People controlling him, controlling his life, controlling his relationship or what he`s doing, and he wanted help. He reached out to my father knowing that my father would be the one to help him, because my father (INAUDIBLE)
PINSKY: Can you talk about that? Michael got sucked into -- and I think about Anna Nicole Smith and other people I`ve seen getting sucked into enmesh, you know, manipulative relationships. He`s another one, huh?
LA TOYA JACKSON: You get involved in it. It happens -- like you and I were speaking earlier, is that, you don`t realize that it`s happening to you until you`re so involved, you`re so into it.
PINSKY: My -- I went oh she`s had a ton of therapy. She had a bunch of therapy. So, between now, she must have a bunch of therapy, because you seem so, like, filled out. I mean, it`s like -- oh, that`s La Toya. I see where she is now. Have you had any professional help?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Very, very, very, very, very, little. I had therapy for probably one time, and then, a couple of sessions with --
PINSKY: That`s it? We got to get that therapist.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Did he have a wand or something? Let me ask this. What advice would you give women out there? I mean, if you can look down there with this camera saying (ph), you know, if you`re in an abusive relationship, here`s what I advise.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, that`s why I`ve written a book "Starting Over" because if you`re in a abusive relationship, any lady that`s out there, it`s never too late to start over, and I want you to know that if someone hits you one time, that`s one too many. You must get up and you must walk away. Don`t feel that you`re in a relationship and you have to suffer and stay there. You don`t have to. There`s help out there. There are shelters that you can go to. Please get away.
PINSKY: And let me add a couple of quote to that, which is "A" you`ve been robbed of your spirit and your esteem by the abusive the partner, and if they`ve hit you once, it doesn`t stop there. It just doesn`t. So, you better get come to terms with that now and get out of there before things get really bad.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I remember when the first time someone had known or saw that this was going on. It was the lady that worked for us. It was my (INAUDIBLE).
PINSKY: Wow.
LA TOYA JACKSON: And she came and she knocked on the door, and she said I`m here to pack your clothes because I was in Italy at the time he had beaten me that night. And the reason he had beaten me is because it had been six months, and I said it`s been six months? Can we get an annulment, and I was all excited about it.
He says are you insane, an annulment? And he grabbed my head and he started beating into the table. He says, I own you. I own you. Don`t you understand? I own you. You`re mine. I`ll never let you go. Are you insane?
PINSKY: Stay with me. How do you feel when you describe that now? You seem a little detached from it. It must have been awful.
LA TOYA JACKSON: It was awful.
PINSKY: Do you disassociate when you`re going through it? You sort of disconnect from it like you`re out of body?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes. Because, before, I could never talk about this. I could never mention this. I would cry and cry and cry and cry. And now, I`ve overcome that now. I can speak about it, because when I speak about it, in my heart and soul, I feel that when you speak up and you speak out, you`re helping these women that are out there.
PINSKY: Right.
LA TOYA JACKSON: You`re helping them to understand. So, you`re speaking for them.
PINSKY: Yes.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Forget about yourself. Forget about all the cries that you had. Those are passed. You`ve overcome that stage now, which I have, and I`m very grateful and thankful that I have because I could never -- I would just shake and cry. I don`t do that anymore.
PINSKY: Do you have romantic relationships now?
LA TOYA JACKSON: No.
PINSKY: Too scary? You`re afraid that`s going to happen again in?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, it`s not that it`s too scary. I`m so involved in my work and what I`m doing. If it`s happen, it will happen.
PINSKY: Don`t avoid it, because that`s one things other people do sometimes. When they up something like this, they go, I`m never doing that again. In fact, I`m going to stay alone for awhile. It`s the flipside of the same thing.
LA TOYA JACKSON: We put a wall up, don`t we?
PINSKY: We need intimacy. We need it.
LA TOYA JACKSON: You`re absolutely right, because when I left, I said I don`t like men. I hate men. And I`ll never be with a man again.
PINSKY: I beg your pardon?
(LAUGHTER)
LA TOYA JACKSON: That`s what I said during that time. But that was then, of course. And now, I think differently, of course, because I was so hurt. Really, I was so abused.
PINSKY: One thing I will tell you and this is for other women out there, too, is that you will find, if you`re super attracted to someone, be careful.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes.
PINSKY: Because we know that about you. You`re attracted to people that tend to abuse.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Exactly.
PINSKY: So, go for somebody who is a little more boring if you have a history of being with abusive guys. Seriously. That if you command and --
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, of course.
PINSKY: somebody that not so uber exciting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: A brief note here, HLN cannot confirm nor deny any allegations La Toya made about her ex-husband.
All right. Now, coming up, La Toya is going to talk about the death of her brother, Michael Jackson. And she explains why Michael told her that people in his inner circle wanted to kill him. You have to hear that.
Also, is Dr. Murray to blame for what happened? She`ll address that. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: In the second half of my interview with La Toya, she gets emotional talking about the passing of her brother and how the family misses Michael. And then, she talks about the upcoming trial and how Conrad Murray, perhaps, is just the fall guy. And she explains why people wanted Michael dead. Let`s take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: All right. Let`s switch gears a little bit. You have an interesting theory about Michael and how he died and Conrad Murray`s involvement of that. I want to show a little bit of tape to the audience about Dr. Murray and his apology. Let`s see what this looks like, and then, we`ll go from there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Dr. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DOCTOR: As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth. And I have faith the truth will prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I don`t know how you feel about him. I actually feel sorry for him. I think he got himself into a gigantic mess from the beginning, and it was out of grid, you know? He wasn`t using good judgment, but it`s a mess. You think differently.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Dr. Drew, I agree with you. I really do. I agree with you. I feel sorry for him. I feel sorry for the fact that he was put in the position. I truly believe and no one can change my mind, I know this for a fact.
PINSKY: Tell me.
LA TOYA JACKSON: I believe that Dr. Murray was simply the fall guy. There are so many other people involved in this, and they used Dr. Murray, and he didn`t realize he was being used. And that`s what I believe. He just happened to be there when this was happening, when this took place.
PINSKY: You know, it`s funny. I almost feel like we`re saying the same thing. So, how do you see him having been used?
LA TOYA JACKSON: I see him being used as a tool.
PINSKY: In other words, by setting him up to just do whatever with medicines and drugs, the outcome was inevitable and everyone knew it? Or they were encouraging him to give more --
LA TOYA JACKSON: I think it works in various ways.
PINSKY: Subtle, right?
LA TOYA JACKSON: I think it`s all of the things that you`re saying, actually, that you`re speaking of. He was there, and they allowed it to happen. Let me ask you a question. If you have someone who`s going on tour, that you`re going to do a massive tour with, and you take him to a doctor, and you make sure that he`s examined, he`s OK. If you had a doctor there, and this guy is going to make you millions and millions and millions of dollars almost in the billions, of course.
PINSKY: That`s what -- for the concert promoters.
LA TOYA JACKSON: For the concert promoters.
PINSKY: Yes.
LA TOYA JACKSON: And here`s this guy. And this doctor say, you would tell that doctor if he asks for anything, don`t you dare give him anything. Your job is to watch over him and don`t give him anything.
PINSKY: They did exactly the opposite.
LA TOYA JACKSON: They did the --
PINSKY: Right.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Michael didn`t ask for anything, actually. They were administering it to him. You`ve got to sleep. You`ve got to rest.
PINSKY: Interesting.
LA TOYA JACKSON: This is what they were doing.
PINSKY: You seem very upset when you think about it and talk about it.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Well, no, it hurts me, because my brother should be with us here today, at this very moment. And these people knew what they were doing.
PINSKY: Is it a conspiracy?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes.
PINSKY: They intended to harm him?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Towards what end?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Absolutely. They intended to harm him simply because they knew that Michael was worth more dead than alive. They knew - -
PINSKY: How would they get their hands on that?
LA TOYA JACKSON: He told me repeatedly, La Toya, they`re going to kill me.
PINSKY: They? Did he specify who?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, he did.
PINSKY: Oh, my.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, he did.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: What did you do?
LA TOYA JACKSON: When he first told me the very first time, I said, Michael, who? I said, first of all, you`re Michael Jackson. No one would ever do that. He goes La Toya, you`ve got to listen to me, and he explained everything. He says they`re after my catalogs. They`re after my --
PINSKY: Are we going to hear about that in the Conrad Murray trial, do you think? Those kinds of theories?
LA TOYA JACKSON: I would love to hear about that, but no, they`re overlooking. But everything is right here in this book, "Starting Over."
PINSKY: Do you love Michael?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Intensely. I miss him so much. You have no idea. Yes. The world lost an incredible guy.
PINSKY: You lost your brother.
LA TOYA JACKSON: The world lost an incredible guy. And our family -- I lost a brother that you guys will never be able to understand. A heart. Michael had the best heart of anybody in the entire world. A loving person, a kind person, a generous person, a caring person. He cared about the sick. He cared about anybody that wasn`t healthy.
PINSKY: Would you share that, those moments? Would you say, you know, I feel like I pretty understand things --
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, absolutely, and he knew that. And he knew that.
PINSKY: Well, you mentioned his children. Certainly, they seem like great kids. We actually have some footage of Paris at your brother`s funeral speaking about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DAUGHTER: I just want to say ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him. So much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Oh, just so hard to watch that.
LA TOYA JACKSON: It was.
PINSKY: How`s she doing now?
LA TOYA JACKSON: She`s doing very well. Very well. Kids are resilient.
PINSKY: Yes, but it leaves scars, you know, the staff.
LA TOYA JACKSON: It does leave scars. Absolutely. It really does, but she`s doing very well. She`s doing a lot better. I have a tendency to watch them. I watch them very carefully, very closely. I watch their mannerisms.
PINSKY: Do you visit frequently?
LA TOYA JACKSON: Yes, I do. Yes, I do, because I know that, you know, we can think that they`re resilient and may bounce back, but sometimes, you know, there are things that are troubling and bothering people.
PINSKY: It has to. Well, thank you, La Toya, it has really been a pleasure. The book is called "La Toya Jackson: Starting Over." It is in stores and Amazon, of course. Go out and get it And we`ll be back after this.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Is This Casey Anthony? WFTV in Orlando shot this at the airport early this evening. Her attorney, Baez, says it is not Casey. The frenzy surrounding the footage illustrates what we`re going to be talking about right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Has Casey Anthony become some sort of brand? Maybe, but does that make her a marketable commodity even though many people don`t think she`ll profit or don`t want to touch her? Back with us is Dylan Howard. He`s senior executive editor of "Star" magazine. So, Dylan, photographers are probably swarming around trying to get that first picture, because that one is going to be worth a lot of money. Is that right?
DYLAN HOWARD, SR. EXECUTIVE EDITOR, STAR MAGAZINE: Look, it will be worth an amount of money. I don`t think it will be worth six figures. I think there is some interest, certainly, in the tabloid media to find that first photo of Casey, but realistically, it`s a guessing game as to where she is. There`s no credible information. That video, perhaps, is her, perhaps, it`s not. We don`t know. So, I think people are chasing, but will they get the carrot? I don`t think so.
PINSKY: Who do you think would not take a picture of her?
HOWARD: I don`t think there would be few media outlets that would not, because I do think it`s a genuine story. People do want to know where she is, but for the reasons that we outlined previously, do we actually care?
PINSKY: Right. So, you and I said yesterday we don`t care, and yet, we continue to report because the public does seem to want to hear, does continue to have an appetite.
HOWARD: Sure.
PINSKY: Why do you think the public wants to see her so badly?
HOWARD: Well, I don`t think the public -- they`ve been captivated by this story. This story has had more twists and turns than any Hollywood fiction could be written. Here you have real life drama especially in Florida where the laws are different and everything gets released. And in this era where real life drama sells on reality television, this was the most captivating form of story we could have.
PINSKY: So, this is a reality show?
HOWARD: It was.
PINSKY: We were reporting on a reality show?
HOWARD: We were. A reality show that had serious and heartbreaking undertones about it, but in every sense of the world, this trial had so many twists and turns that we began captivated by it. People at home on this network tuning in everyday to watch rolling coverage. There`s nothing wrong with that, in my point of view, but now, that she`s been released, we need to take stuff of where we`re going.
PINSKY: Right. What`s the end game? Now, I like the fact that Orlando community is turning this in a positive direction and coming out with Caylee`s law and various kinds of fundraising which is fantastic. Taking all that energy and doing something good with it, but I just -- I don`t see the end game here. I don`t know where we`re going?
HOWARD: Well, you know, you raised the question is she a brand? A bad brand. You know, what is she going to go and endorse? Diapers? Are you serious? Like, she`s a terrible brand at the moment. She is not, in anyway, can be aligned to any endorsement, any product. People don`t want to associate themselves with that brand, because it`s so bad.
That`s why no media outlet is going to give her the million-dollar payday that maybe Jose Baez wants because no one wants to be associated when 2/3 of America doesn`t believe her and believes that she murdered Caylee.
PINSKY: How much would somebody pay for that picture? The first picture.
HOWARD: Look, it`s probably tens of thousands. It`s not six figures. Would I want to have the photo? Yes. I mean, we would run it online, and it would be a big story. But, does the end justify the means?
PINSKY: Yes.
HOWARD: I think she needs to go underground. I think she needs to go underground for a period of time.
PINSKY: OK. And quickly, I have 20 seconds left. George and Cindy, are we going to hear from them soon do you think?
HOWARD: I think we will. And I think a lot of people genuinely want to hear from them. Here are two people that were cast unwittingly into this story.
PINSKY: I would love to talk to them, because that`s the poignant part of the story other than the Caylee piece. So, Dylan, thank you.
HOWARD: Thank you.
PINSKY: See you all here tomorrow. Reminder, my primetime special with Bristol Palin is Thursday. Thank you for watching.
END
