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Nancy Grace
Michigan Police Search for Kidnapped 5-Month-Old
Aired July 21, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bombshell tonight. Live, Michigan, a 5-month-old baby, baby Kate, kidnapped, snatched in front of Mommy. missing without a trace. Tonight, where is baby Kate?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. Where is your emergency?
ARIEL COURTLAND, MOTHER: The father of my child took our daughter. And I don`t know where he`s at with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catherine Phillips is still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say after arguing with her mother, 21-year- old Sean Phillips drove away with 4-month-old Kate Phillips.
COURTLAND: We got in the car, and I forgot something in my house. So I ran back upstairs to get my keys. And I came back down, and they`re gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The suspect, Sean Michael Phillips.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s booked on kidnapping charges but staying mum when it comes to Katherine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He won`t say where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) said anything about where she`s at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s hired a lawyer and is exercising his right to not incriminate himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been no shortage of manpower on this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police have searched (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again in the woods.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officials told us they found the clothes baby Kate was wearing when she went missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will not stop looking for you until we find you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) issues being gone for so long.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re not going to find her alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Katherine?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking tonight, missing evidence that could have nailed tot mom, Casey Anthony, on murder one in the death and disappearance on 2- year-old little Caylee, tot mom`s only child, damning evidence hidden from the tot mom jury, all kept out at trial, key evidence that could have sent tot mom straight to Florida`s death row.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did everyone outside the courtroom see something those jurors didn`t?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The skeletal remains were recovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just found a human skull.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I was pissed off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony must also be aware of it at the jail. They might be taking her away from the television.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey at one time was considering giving up little Caylee for adoption.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there ever talk of Casey talking to you about giving up Caylee for adoption?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Intense fight right before Casey left with Caylee in mid-June.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: She didn`t fight with me, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) physical?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She`s getting physical right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A page from Casey`s diary contains disturbing passages, considering her daughter had disappeared just days before.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I have no regrets, just a bit worried. I just want for everything work out OK."
GRACE: Do they obtain a confession?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pour it on, like, a rag and put it over the baby`s face, will knock her out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I just hope that the end justifies the means. I just want to know what the future will hold for me. I guess I will soon see."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live to Michigan, a 5-month-old baby, baby Kate, kidnapped, snatched right in front of Mommy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She could be anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katherine "Kate" Phillips was inside a car with her mother and 21-year-old Sean Phillips.
COURTLAND: We got in the car, and I forgot something in my house. So I ran back upstairs to get my keys. And I came back down, and they`re gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say 21-year-old Sean Phillips drove away with 4-month-old Kate Phillips after arguing with her mother, Ariel Courtland.
COURTLAND: He doesn`t want me to bring Kate there because he knows that Kate is his, and he doesn`t want to pay child support for her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doesn`t seem like we`re any closer to finding (INAUDIBLE) We still don`t know where she`s at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Massive search effort.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Combing through private property.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woods are thick and deep and full of places to hide a 4-month-old baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very swampy (INAUDIBLE) very thick and very swampy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how I would handle losing a child.
COURTLAND: She`s my daughter. He has no legal rights over her much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Heather Lynn Peters, joining us from "The Muskegon Chronicle." Heather, a 5-month-old baby girl gone, and snatched in front of Mommy. Do we have any idea of her whereabouts tonight? How long has she been missing?
HEATHER LYNN PETERS, "MUSKEGON CHRONICLE": You know, Nancy, she`s been missing for about three weeks now. It`s been a devastating case. They have searched -- you name it, they`ve searched wooded areas, swampy areas. They`ve had dogs. They`ve had helicopters as part of the search. And they have no idea where this baby is at this time.
GRACE: Also with us, Matt Zarrell. Matt, tell me what happened.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy, they were scheduled to go take a paternity test. The alleged baby`s father, Sean Phillips, had actually already taken his test. They were at the mother`s apartment complex. Mom goes up to get the stroller for the baby, comes back down, and Phillips and the baby are gone. There`s no sign of them.
But Nancy, we`ve just learned the reports are that just hours before the alleged abduction, the kidnapper, Sean Phillips, tried to get baby Kate given up for adoption. The mother refused. That`s when they went back to the apartment, and that`s when Sean Phillips allegedly abducted the baby.
GRACE: OK, OK, hold on. I want to hear exactly what happened. And as Matt is telling us what went down -- a 5-month-old baby girl is in danger tonight, snatched, kidnapped right in front of Mommy. I want to hear exactly how this managed to happen. Liz, keep the photos coming. The tip line, everyone, I`m about to give you, 231-869-5858. There is a reward for the return of baby Kate. She`s only 5 months old.
OK, slow down, Matt Zarrell, How did this go down?
ZARRELL: OK. Mom and the baby and the baby`s alleged father, Sean Phillips, are all in the parking lot in Sean Phillips`s car outside Mom`s apartment. They`re arguing over the paternity of the baby. Sean Phillips does not want the baby to take a paternity test. There are reports that he doesn`t want to tell his parents that he`s the father of this baby.
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! He doesn`t want to tell his Mommy and Daddy...
ZARRELL: Correct.
GRACE: ... he has a new baby? That`s the problem? He`s worried about what Mommy and Daddy think? That`s what`s going on here? Go ahead, Matt.
ZARRELL: Yes. So what happens is, is that during this discussion, the argument gets heated and the mother decides that she`s going to get the paternity for the baby without Sean Phillips.
GRACE: OK, wait. Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Back it up. So they are going to get a paternity test. And it`s my understanding they`re getting a paternity test because he`s about to head out to Afghanistan. He`s a member of the armed forces. And she wants child support. They can garnish that. They can garnish that from his wages. But if she doesn`t get the DNA test, then she can`t get the money, right, Matt?
ZARRELL: Yes, you`re correct, Nancy. And now what happens is, is that she decides she`s going to take the baby to the DNA testing facility without him. It`s only a couple blocks away.
GRACE: Wa-wait! Wa-wait! Matt, you left something out! Or maybe I missed it. So they`re going to get the DNA test, and instead he takes her to the state agency to give the baby away. She`s like, Why are we here? And he says, I want to put the baby up for adoption. That`s what happened that morning, did it not, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Yes, it was just a few hours before he -- the mother thought they were going to the DNA facility. That`s when Phillips allegedly took them to the DHS, the Department of Human Services, office for the adoption proceedings. The mom wanted no part of it. That is when they went back to the mother`s apartment. The argument ensued. Mom decides she`s going to go to the DNA facility without Phillips. She goes up to get the stroller to take the baby out of the car. When she gets back from taking the stroller, the car, the baby, Phillips all gone.
GRACE: You know, on the market, the black market, how much this baby would go for, Sheryl McCollum? Thousands and thousands of dollars.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: She would, Nancy. And here`s the issue. The father made it clear he did not want this child. He said it at every step of the way. He didn`t want to tell his parents, even though they have another child together.
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers." Dr. Bethany, she thinks they`re going for a paternity test, and he takes her to a building to hand the baby over?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I don`t for one minute believe the reason this happened is that he didn`t want to tell his parents. I think he was just manipulating the mother of the baby.
I think he had a desperate plan all along. He hoped he could give the baby up for adoption, but I don`t really think that was the plan. I think that there was desperation, a compulsion to commit homicide that was building up because he did not want to pay for child support for this baby for the rest of his life.
GRACE: I think...
MARSHALL: And we know a financial incentive...
GRACE: ... it`s bigger than child support, Dr. Bethany. It`s bigger than child support. He didn`t want his parents to know that he had created a child. He didn`t want them to know. And to keep them from finding out, it was more important, seemingly, to get rid of the baby. You know, to heck with the child support. That`s something he can deal with later. But right now, in the moment, he did not want his parents to find out he had fathered a child. This is a grown man in his 20s, and he doesn`t want his father...
MARSHALL: Nancy...
GRACE: ... his mother and father to know he`s had...
MARSHALL: Nancy...
GRACE: ... a baby? Yes?
MARSHALL: Men who are that conscienceless do not care what their parents think about them. Someone who could commit homicide are not worried that their parents are going to be mad at them. They don`t want to spend (INAUDIBLE) It`s that simple.
GRACE: Well, you know, I understand that, but that`s simply not what the facts say. Hold on. Back to Matt Zarrell. Matt, wasn`t all along he tried to hide this from his parents?
ZARRELL: Yes, his parents only knew that the baby existed, never actually met the baby. And just so you know, Nancy, there are other custody disputes with the other child the two of them had, a 3-year-old girl.
GRACE: To Stacey Newman, also on the story. Stacey, the baby`s 5 months old. How has he managed to hide the baby from his parents all this time? I mean, this is a man in his 20s, for Pete`s sake!
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that`s a great question, Nancy. And again, that part of the story`s just not jibing for me. But what I want do to tell you is -- what do you always say about these suspects, Nancy? They always end up running right to Mommy. Where did cops arrest him three hours after this 911 call was made? At Mommy and Daddy`s.
GRACE: Good point, Stacey. Everybody, we are taking your calls. We are live in Michigan, in a desperate search for a 5-month-old baby girl. We`ve all seen this kind of case before, but there is a chance this child is still alive. And that`s why we are making a public plea to you tonight.
Take a look. Tip line 231-869-5858. There is a reward. There are a few crucial hours that may be able to help us find baby Kate. She`s only 5 months old.
Very quickly to Dr. Ann Contrucci, pediatrician, joining us out of Atlanta. Dr. Ann, explain to us if this baby could still be alive if she had been left alone somewhere?
DR. ANN CONTRUCCI, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, if this baby had been left alone, there`s no way she`s still alive, not -- you know, a baby at this age, as everyone knows who`s parents, is still completely, 100 percent dependent on an adult caregiver. So if she`s still alive, somebody has to be taking care of her.
GRACE: There`s a very good chance this child was handed off just to get rid of it. There is a chance this 5-month-old baby girl is still alive. Baby Kate, look at her. Her life depends on someone coming forward and identifying what happened within a few crucial hours.
We are taking your calls live from Michigan.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police have searched and searched.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say 21-year-old Sean Phillips drove away with 4-month-old Kate Phillips after arguing with her mother, Ariel Courtland.
COURTLAND: I thought he was going to give us a ride. And I forgot something in my house. So I ran back upstairs. When I came back down, they`re gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police continue to search the area, while Kate`s mother waits at home, hoping her baby can be found safely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how I would handle losing a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re here to find baby Katherine and bring her home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s only this big. She`s just a tiny thing. She could be anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suspect Sean Michael Phillips.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s booked on kidnapping charges.
COURTLAND: She`s my daughter. He has no legal rights over her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been no shortage of manpower.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katherine Phillips is still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Phillips has reportedly hired an attorney and is refusing to cooperate with cops, but allegedly claims from behind bars that baby Kate is still alive.
911 OPERATOR: OK. So he was supposed to give you a ride to the DNA test at the courthouse, right?
COURTLAND: No, it`s at the hospital.
911 OPERATOR: At the hospital?
COURTLAND: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And how long ago did he take off?
COURTLAND: Just now, five minutes ago. I`ve been trying to call his cell phone. He`s not answering.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What kind of vehicle was he in?
COURTLAND: He`s driving a silver Intrigue.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Intrigue. Do you happen to know the plate or...
COURTLAND: No, I`m sorry.
911 OPERATOR: OK. That`s all right. That`s all right. OK, Ariel, we`ll send somebody over so you can file a report, OK?
COURTLAND: OK. Thank you.
911 OPERATOR: Bye-bye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At the beginning, she did not believe it would come to this, a 5-month-old baby girl, baby Kate, snatched, kidnapped in front of her own Mommy. But as the hours go on, the desperation level rises and rises and rises. Baby Kate has not been seen since, and the baby dad not cooperating with police.
We are taking your calls, in a desperate search tonight to find baby Kate. She is 5 months old. There`s a chance that she can be saved.
Out to Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler," joining us out of D.C. Weigh in, Pat.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I agree with you, Nancy, and I agree with Bethany. I agree with Bethany that this is 100 percent about not having to spend money for the rest of his life. And I agree with you, he doesn`t want his parents to know because if they did know about this child, they would tell him to step up to the plate and take care of their granddaughter. So that`s where I think both of you are absolutely correct. But he does not want that baby found.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Eleanor Odom, senior lawyer with the National DAs Association, death penalty-qualified, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Let`s go first to D.C. and Eleanor Odom. No death penalty in Michigan. But right now, there`s a chance baby Kate could still be alive, Eleanor.
ELEANOR ODOM, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOC.: Well, there is a chance, Nancy. And you`ve got a lot of charges against this guy so far. You`ve got kidnapping, possible child endangerment. And depending on whether or not they find the baby, there are probably other charges that are going to come down, as well. And I am so glad they`re spending all these resources looking for the child.
GRACE: But bottom line, there`s no way he can be forced to cooperate in finding his own baby girl. What about it, Rockwell?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. But if he has an attorney and if the baby is still alive -- mind you, in many states, when it`s a kidnapping with bodily injury, you can get life without parole for that charge. If the baby`s still alive, what he needs to do is negotiate the return of the child in exchange for a lesser charge, like interference with custody.
GRACE: OK, what about it, Peter?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, Renee is exactly right. And the police are going to be highly motivated to enter into that kind of deal with the devil, so to speak, because this family needs closure about where this child is, and he needs to protect himself legally.
GRACE: Well, that was well put, Peter Odom, because sometimes, to put the devil in jail, you got to go to hell to find your witnesses, to coin a phrase.
But everybody right now, take a look. Let`s see a full screen of baby Kate one more time. There you go. Tip line, everyone, 231-869-5858, this little baby kidnapped right in front of the mom as Mom was going to get a DNA test to try to get child support for the 5-month-old baby girl. The alleged baby dad instead takes her to adopt -- the baby to give the baby away. They pull up in front of a state office to hand over the baby.
Sheryl McCollum, what should police be looking for now?
MCCOLLUM: They`re going to start from where the baby was taken to where her clothes were found to where he was arrested (INAUDIBLE) That`s a very small circle. They`re looking for the woods, they`re looking for water, they`re looking for a hole.
GRACE: And Matt Zarrell, what are the crucial hours? And where do people need to focus?
ZARRELL: The crucial hours are 1:00 to 4:00 PM the day she was kidnapped. They have a couple sightings of Sean Phillips, none of them with the baby, though. They`re asking for the public`s help. If you see Sean Phillips during those hours, please call police.
GRACE: Everyone, 231-869-5858. There is a chance baby Kate is alive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: What is it you`d like to report, Ariel?
COURTLAND: The father of my child took our daughter, and I don`t think where he`s at with her. She`s my daughter. He has no legal rights over her. I was supposed to take her for a DNA test at 1:00 o`clock and -- for him, for child support. And he came over and I thought he was going to give us a ride there. So we got in the car. And I forgot something in my house, so I ran back upstairs to get my keys. And I came back down, and they`re gone.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right. And so he was supposed to transport you to a DNA? And you`re sure he didn`t go there? Did you call the courthouse?
COURTLAND: Yes, he already -- no, he already went there. His appointment was an hour before mine was. He already took the test. He just does not want me to bring Kate there because he knows that Kate is his, and he doesn`t want to pay child support for her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in Michigan and taking your calls. Baby Kate, just 5 months old, kidnapped, snatched in front of her Mommy. In the time it takes her to turn, walk a few steps, get the baby stroller, come back outside, the baby is gone. We are focusing on three crucial hours between 1:00 and 4:00 PM Michigan. I`m going to give you the details.
We are taking your calls. To Sheila in Illinois. Hi, Sheila. what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m just so glad, Nancy, that you`re devoting your time and all your beautiful efforts back to the things that really matter in our country. And I just was curious, how long did it take the mother to call 911?
GRACE: Good question. Out to Stacey Newman. How long did it take mom to call 911? I mean, did she think he was coming right back with her? And again, he has not been named a defendant in a murder. We`re still hoping he will give us answers as to where the baby is. How long did it take her to call police, Stacey?
NEWMAN: It was only within a few minutes. As she said, as we played for viewers on that 911 call, she said he`d only left five minutes before she had placed that call.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Baby Kate, possibly still alive, just turned 5 months old.
What is amazing to me, Heather Lynn Peters, reporter with "The Muskegon Chronicle," is that he was so desperate, a man up in his 20s, for his parents not to find out he had fathered this child! I mean, on the black market in this country, this child would go for tens of thousands of dollars!
PETERS: Yes. And certainly, we don`t know if that is the case, but - - he already had a child with Ms. Courtland, so it`s surprising to think that he wouldn`t have come forward with the information.
GRACE: We need your help. If there is any chance in saving this child`s life, it`s now. It`s us. Tip line, 231-869-5858, last seen in a car outside Mommy`s home.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
COURTLAND: The father of my child took our daughter, and I don`t know where he`s at with her. She`s my daughter. He has no legal rights over her. I was supposed to take her for a DNA test at 1:00 o`clock.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Missing 4-month-old baby girl, Kate Phillips.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Katherine`s mother Ariel Courtland was allowed to visit Sean Michael Phillips in jail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s not answering.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They left without a word.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But nothing`s came out of it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Shawn Phillips allegedly claims from behind bars that baby Kate is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope that we can find her, because she has a full life to live ahead of her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The police and the family aren`t giving up hope they will find Kate alive.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911, where is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father of my child took our daughter and I don`t know where he`s at with her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Katherine Phillips is still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say after arguing with her mother, 21- year-old Shawn Phillips drove away with 4-month-old Kate Phillips.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought he was going to give us a ride, I forgot something in my house. So I ran back upstairs to get my keys and I came back down and they`re gone.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The suspect, Shawn Michael Phillips.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s booked on kidnapping charges, but staying mum when it comes to Katherine.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He won`t say where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He hasn`t said anything about where she`s at.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And he`s exercising his right to not incriminate himself.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There`s been no shortage of manpower in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police have searched and searched. Again in the woods.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Officials told us they found the clothes baby Kate was wearing when she went missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will not stop looking for you until we find you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I fear, since she`s been gone for so long, I`m not going to find her alive.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is Katherine?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: By land, by air, by water, by foot, volunteers, police looking for 5-month-old baby Kate, gone from Michigan.
We need your help, the tip line tonight is 231-869-5858. Ludington, Michigan.
Take a look. We are live in Michigan tonight asking for your help. And shortly we`re going to take you live to Orlando and the five pieces of missing evidence that could have nailed tot mom Casey Anthony in the murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee, but back to Michigan.
We are taking your calls. To Chelsea there in Michigan.
Hi, Chelsea, what`s your question?
CHELSEA, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: My question is, do you think that there`s any chance that she`s still alive?
GRACE: Chelsea, I absolutely think that there is a chance this child could be alive. Come on, this guy -- he`s not charged with murder, this guy`s so afraid of what mommy and daddy think, I don`t know if he`s got the wherewithal to pull off a murder. But I think that he could maybe have given the baby away. He wanted to adopt the baby.
What do we know -- back out to Heather Lynn Peters, reporter with the "Muskegon Chronicle."
Heather, the key time, June 29, 1:15 to 4:00 p.m. police need to track his movements. He was driving a silver intrigue. What do we know? I understand he was spotted in a couple of places?
HEATHER LYNN PETERS, REPORTER, MUSKEGON CHRONICLE: Right. He was spotted at a Wendy`s. That didn`t really pan out to be anything later when authorities checked up on that. He was also spotted out at a boat dock or so they believe so. They went there, nothing, no evidence that would lead them to baby Kate`s whereabouts.
GRACE: This is a young man with no serious problem in his past, he`s up in his 20s, the worst thing he ever did was a minor trespassing. This guy did not want the baby, he never even let his parents know he had fathered this child.
PETERS: Correct.
GRACE: Did he kill the baby or did he give it away in an effort to keep the baby a secret?
We are taking your calls. Back to Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst, director of the Cold Case Squad, Pine Lake PD. Author of "Cold Case: Pathways To Justice."
What do we do now, Sheryl?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: We found some clothing that she wasn`t in, maybe he changed her outfit to give her away, I doubt that, Nancy. If anyone had that baby who was innocent in the last three weeks, they would have given her back. I am extremely worried about the safety of this child.
GRACE: And I want to go back to the issue of him not cooperating.
What do we know, Matt Zarrell?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: He is not cooperating. The first thing that he did when he was put in jail is he hired an attorney. He`s not talking. The only thing he would do is the mom, April -- Ariel Courtland met with him in jail. Asked him if baby Kate was alive. He wouldn`t respond.
The only thing he would do is nod his head yes. Any time that Ariel wants to bring up baby Kate, he wants to go back to his jail cell.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. So he would rather go back to his jail cell rather than talk about baby Kate? His own child?
ZARRELL: Yes, that`s what the mom Ariel Courtland reportedly told locals is that he immediately wants to go back to his cell every time baby Kate`s brought up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So he was supposed to give you a ride to the DNA test at the courthouse, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, it`s at the hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: At the hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. And how long ago did he take off?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just now, five minutes ago, I`ve been trying to call his cell phone, he`s not answering.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The disconnect between the jury and the rest of America.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They brought a counselor in to talk to her so that a counselor could tell her the news so they probably -- my guest would be there doing that right now.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Have you ever had anything so bad happen to you?
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: It was bad.
BAEZ: That you`ve told no one about?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey often talked about what life would be like without Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Life of impulse control.
CASEY ANTHONY: People have been lying to you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Fifty letters, 258 pages to another inmate, drug dealer, Robin Adams.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m trying to help them, and they`re not letting me help them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the happiest I`ve been in a very long time. I hope that my happiness will continue to grow.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We`re falling apart.
TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER BOYFRIEND: Her mom said get your things, you`re coming with me. Casey said, no, I`m coming back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am finally happy. Let`s just hope that doesn`t change.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Five pieces of missing evidence that could have nailed tot mom Casey Anthony in the murder of her 2-year-old little girl Caylee. A jailhouse video showing tot mom`s collapse when she found out where cops were searching for her body.
Party gal tot mom wanting to put Caylee up for adoption? A furious fight with her mother Cindy, the night before the baby disappears. A so- called confession found in tot mom`s diary. And testimony from two snitches who claim tot mom said she had used chloroform on her baby girl.
We are live and taking your calls. Straight out to Robyn Walensky, WDBO.
Robyn, what do you make of the missing evidence that could have nailed tot mom?
ROBYN WALENSKY, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, the five things you just stated, Nancy, are key. In my opinion, the number one thing they should have done was taken the jurors to the Caylee crime scene, to see where the remains were recovered.
That said, when Casey Anthony in the jailhouse video sees that the remains were recovered back on December 11th of 2008. There is video of her where she`s apparently hyperventilating and collapses.
Now Jeff Ashton, the prosecutor, has said that that videotape could cut both ways. Basically the jurors could have interpreted that as the mourning mother that she was upset.
GRACE: Hold on, hold on. Hold on, Robyn.
To Ellie Jostad, isn`t it true that when the news first came out, it was just showing up on the monitor that tot mom saw, they had not identified the body as being Caylee`s.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes.
GRACE: And before when they allegedly -- put Ellie up, please. When they allegedly found -- when they thought maybe they found -- would find remains, they would look at the Little Econ River, they looked in a lot other places, tot mom would just laugh it off, literally giggling at some of the locations they were looking.
But when she sees up on the screen in the jail the location where they were looking, nobody had said it was Caylee, tot mom does what, Ellie?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, she allegedly doubled over, she began hyperventilating, she got red in the face, she said her hands were hurting her, she said her restraints were too tight. We have statements from the jailers that all witnessed it.
Now that tape has been sealed but it could be released so we may be able to see for ourself how she reacted to that news.
GRACE: To Pat Brown, criminal profiler, the fact and the timing is crucial, Pat, as you well know. The fact that nobody has said this is Caylee. These are her remains, this is her body. And all the other times tot mom had literally giggled at some of the locations cops were looking at to find Caylee. But when she sees that that they`re looking there 15 houses from the Anthony home, she doubles over and hyperventilates.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, that means something to you, Nancy, it means something to me. But to tell you the truth, with this jury, from what I`ve seen from them, I think they would excuse just about anything away. Because they`re going to say there`s some other reason for it. She just thought there`s a body there, could be her daughter, so she hyperventilated.
GRACE: Cheryl, do you agree?
BROWN: I don`t buy it.
MCCOLLUM: I agree with you, Nancy. Also, it was a place known to her where she took dead pets. This is not somewhere that she didn`t know anything about.
GRACE: And another issue, you know, it never came out, Ellie, that she wanted to give the baby away. She wanted to give away her baby girl for adoption. She never wanted Caylee.
JOSTAD: Right, and Kim Marie Cruz, the same friend that mentioned that pet cemetery Cheryl was talking about, that friend said that she actually wanted to adopt Caylee. And that she and Casey discussed it, they even thought it would be a great idea. But that Casey eventually told her that Cindy Anthony told her, no way was she giving this child up for adoption.
GRACE: To Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline, there`s also the diary. I`ve had so many e-mails, phone calls, letters. Why wasn`t the diary allowed into evidence. What does she say in her diary that was so damning?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: You know she said that she was confident that every decision that she makes is fine, and she just hopes that the ends justify the means. And this was basically what some people are saying is a confession. It`s Casey saying, oh, I know what I did, but I think I did the right thing.
GRACE: You know what, Liz? Start it over. Let`s read it out loud, you`re absolutely correct, Alexis Tereszcuk.
Liz, let me see the exact diary entry again that we`re talking about. "I have no regrets, just worried. I want everything to work out, OK? I trust my own judgment. I know I made the right decision. I hope the end justifies the means."
It goes on. "I want to know what the future will hold. I guess I`ll see. This is the happiest I`ve been in a very long time. I hope my happiness will continue to grow. I made new friends, I surrounded myself with good people. I`m finally happy."
Ellie, what was the problem with the diary entry?
JOSTAD: I`ll tell you what the problem was, Nancy. They could not establish the date she wrote it. It said June 21st, the state thought that may have been `08. Right after Caylee was last seen alive. But in the very corner it says `03, and the defense contended this was written years before she even had Caylee.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, senior attorney, National DA Association, D.C. Peter Odom, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta.
Eleanor, don`t you think it would have been wise if the judge had allowed this in and then the jury could decide the date? Come on, the coincidences was June 21? Caylee goes missing June 21? Caylee is murdered June 21? And she says this is the happiest I`ve been in a long time?
Eleanor, you`ve seen the video of her at Blockbuster, her at Target, she looks happy.
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Yes, she does look happy, Nancy. And you`re right, let it in. The judge can let that in. Let the jury make the calls.
Pat Brown said, though, probably wouldn`t have mattered much with this jury. And you hate to kind of second guess the prosecution.
GRACE: We don`t know that.
What about it, Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think that this would have made one lick of difference with this jury. I think that the prosecutors made decisions about what to present and not present.
And Nancy, the bottom line is, all these pieces of evidence that you`re mentioning are ambiguous. There`s not a confession of murder in there.
GRACE: Peter, we know that.
Weigh-in, Renee.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think that the whole case was doomed from the start with the charging decision --
GRACE: Yes, that`s not what I asked you.
ROCKWELL: The decision to charge murder one --
GRACE: Try to --
(CROSSTALK)
ROCKWELL: OK. With -- there`s obviously a number of huge rulings that the defense got keeping all this evidence out, and with that evidence staying out, the prosecution going for murder one, there was too many things that the jury was not satisfied with. So with that taken away from them, there was nothing they could do but acquit.
GRACE: Also, horrible site between tot mom and Cindy Anthony, her mother, Caylee`s grandmother, the night before Caylee disappears.
What happened, Ellie?
JOSTAD: We`ve heard, and this apparently came from Lee Anthony, that that night, Father`s Day `08, Casey and Cindy got into a huge fight about her partying, her lying to her parents. It got so bad that Cindy actually put her hands around Casey`s throat. The jury never heard about that, instead they heard -- Cindy Anthony say that they had a lovely day together looking at pictures online.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. But I want to go quickly to Dr. Ann Contrucci, pediatrician, joining us.
Doctor, Dr. Ann, is it true when you see, for instance, a mom who makes statements about not wanting the baby, are those mothers counseled in anyway at the hospital?
DR. ANN CONTRUCCI, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. We have a social worker on duty 24 hours a day. If there`s any kind of inkling that I get that this mom is maybe having some neglect kind of issues going on, or even some outright abuse, we absolutely will jump on that, that`s part of what my job is.
And yes, if there`s anything going on with a mom where she seems to not want to care for her child as a mom should --
GRACE: So Dr. Ann, even the doctors at the hospital, if they had heard comments like, I don`t want the baby, I want to give it up for adoption. They would definitely have acted. This mother did not want her baby.
Also, there`s the issue of testimony from two jailhouse snitches the jury never heard about. Women who claimed tot mom mentioned chloroform behind bars.
Out to the lines, Cheryl in Ohio. Hi, Cheryl, what`s your question?
CHERYL, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. I`m just curious, if any of this evidence comes out later on, could she be retried?
GRACE: Cheryl, how I wish. But if she gave a full on confession right here, if she marched up to the pulpit on Sunday morning and said, I did it, and swears to it under oath on a stack of bibles, no. Double jeopardy disallows the state from retrying her, regardless of the evidence that comes in later.
We are taking your calls, out to Dr. Bethany, psychoanalyst and author.
Weigh-in, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think unfortunately this jury just wanted to completely ignore the behavioral evidence. And what it made me wish is that the defense -- or the prosecutors would have presented all the credible reliable research about the attitudes of moms who commit homicide.
If the jury needed something that tangible, that concrete, that scientific, there is a lot of research out there, Nancy, that shows after the commission of a crime, there`s happiness, there`s partying, there`s sometimes a flattening of affect that mothers who are not bonded with their children engage in certain behaviors, that`s what I think the jury needed.
GRACE: And you know, Ellie, we will end up seeing that video at some point. Judge Stan Strickland sealed it, the video of her hyperventilating and knotting up when she find out the location where cops are looking for Caylee`s body. Explain.
JOSTAD: Right. Well, Judge Stan Strickland said that he didn`t like to have to seal any public record but he didn`t want the chance that some of these potential jurors in the case might see the video before the trial. Now that she`s been acquitted, it looks like the path could be clear that we would all see that video.
GRACE: A lot of good it`s going to do us now, though, Ellie. I think they could have used it during the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony is a free woman.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony out of jail now.
BAEZ: Make sure that there has been justice for Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Are you kidding -- kidding me?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: This was an accident. Lie, lie, lie, lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think my words were in an instant.
CASEY ANTHONY: My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The delay in recovering little Caylee --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Five crucial pieces of evidence that could have nailed tot mom convicting her of murder one.
Out to the lines, Monica in Michigan. Hi, Monica. What`s your question? Monica, are you there, dear? What`s your question?
OK I can hear some shuffling around. Don`t hear Monica.
Robyn Walensky, WDBO, bottom line that and so much other evidence will never be heard by the jury. It`s over. But very quickly, the two jailhouse snitches that talked about chloroform, what do we know, Robyn?
WALENSKY: You know it`s interesting, Nancy. Apparently Casey Anthony did mention to them that she would use the chloroform on some sort of rag to keep little Caylee quiet. So to me it sounds like a key piece of evidence that they should have gone down that road.
And it seems really plausible that she may have used chloroform in addition to some other sedatives to keep Caylee quiet so she could go out and party and so Cindy wouldn`t have to baby-sit, Nancy.
GRACE: Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The latest that we`re hearing there`s a $5, $5 million offer to tot mom on yet another tell-all interview.
Very quickly, I want to congratulate friends of the show, winners of the Atlanta`s wedding loft "I do, Thank You" contest. Amanda and Chris. The couple serving our country in the armed forces get their dream wedding.
Aren`t they beautiful? It couldn`t happen to a more beautiful couple. Congratulations. And God bless you.
Let`s stop and remember Army Private 1st Class Edwin Andino II, 23, Culpeper, Virginia, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Achievement. Love guitar, started playing at 13, bible verse John 15:13 on his headstone. "Greater love has no man than this, than he lay down his life for his friends." His mother`s only child and most precious gift. Leaves behind parents Kathy and Edwin.
Edwin Andino, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from junior Das (ph), Molly, Angel, Caleb, Daja (ph), Donovan, Haney (ph), Jada (ph), Jaya (ph), Jayleen (ph), Janee (ph), Jerry, Jessica, Jonathan, Joshua, Kaya (ph), Kalik (ph), Kristan, Lori, Morgan, Maya, Rashad (ph), Sharif (ph), Todarel (ph), Zazil (ph), Chefron (ph), Debbie, Paul, Senose (ph), Simon, Erica, Brandon and Paul.
Aren`t they beautiful? Our country`s future.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
