Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
Interview With La Toya Jackson; Casey Anthony Free
Aired July 22, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE Joy BEHAR SHOW, ahead of Dr. Conrad Murray`s trial in the death of Michael Jackson, La Toya Jackson tells Joy what she thinks really happened leading up to her brother`s death.
Then HLN`s Nancy Grace has been following the Casey Anthony saga since day one. And she`ll join Joy to break down the next phase of this drama.
Plus, two leading religious minds weigh the controversial issue of forgiving Casey Anthony.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Although La Toya Jackson claims her brother Michael told her, "I`m going to be murdered." As we look to the manslaughter trial of Dr. Conrad Murray, the man accused in the death of Michael Jackson, that eerie premonition certainly comes to mind.
Here to talk about that and other revelations in her new book, "Starting Over" is La Toya Jackson. Hello La Toya.
LA TOYA JACKSON: Hello Joy, how are you.
BEHAR: Have you gotten over "Celebrity Apprentice"?
JACKSON: Have I gotten over it? Look at you. You`re starting already. You`re starting already -- have I? Well, you know, not quite. There`s probably one or two people that, you know, they just can`t go away.
BEHAR: Really, they just haunt you in your dreams?
JACKSON: They will not go away. It`s like a bad seed. Just keeps coming back.
BEHAR: Ok. You know, the book that you wrote is rather serious. You have a lot of revelations about your brother and about your own life and everything.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Before I even get to your life, it said in my intro of you that Michael told you "I`m going to be murdered." When did he say that to you?
JACKSON: Yes. He told me that when we were going through the trial. Just before that period. During that time. And all of this is in the book, word by word.
BEHAR: Yes.
JACKSON: Not only that he told me several times, and he told my mother, as well. And of course when he first said that, I didn`t believe him, Joy because he was Michael. Who would want to do something to a Michael Jackson, one of the biggest entertainers in the world?
BEHAR: Well, I mean that alone, look at John Lennon -- what happened to him.
JACKSON: There you have it.
BEHAR: Being the biggest star in the world is all that`s required for some of these nutcases out there to kill them.
JACKSON: Well, you just never expect that to happen. Why would someone do this? Why would they do want to do it? What is the reason for it? The purpose for it? And then he broke it all down to me. He says, it`s because of my publishing catalogue which is the biggest -- one of the biggest catalogues in the world, worth billions.
He said, this is what they`re after, they want to take it from me, they want it. And he had a love-hate relationship with this catalogue. He would say I don`t want it, it`s not worth my life. I don`t want it. And then he would go, "No, I bought it outright, I`m not letting anybody take this away from me."
BEHAR: But even if he was killed, God forbid, or dead, how could they just take the catalogue? It would have to be the legal papers?
JACKSON: Yes, yes, of course. But you have to remember something. The people that were instrumental, even when they came into his life, they were inquiring about the catalogue. Less than a week prior to his death from what I was told.
But the fact is, yes, they could because Michael`s catalogue -- it`s a whole story behind it, all of it is in the book where it would revert back to him, every single penny of it. Everything that he shared with one of the major companies that he was involved with. Everything would revert back to him as well.
I guess just before that happened -- my brother`s not here, he`s gone.
BEHAR: He`s gone.
Now Dr. Conrad Murray seems to be a suspect in the demise, let`s put it that way, the demise of Michael.
JACKSON: In the demise of him, yes.
BEHAR: But you don`t really think that he is responsible.
JACKSON: No, I -- this is what I think, Joy. I think that he`s involved in some point. I think it was a conspiracy because the way my brother laid it out to me, everything happened exactly the way he said it would happen.
I think that there are very many people involved. And this was pre- meditated. It was pre-planned. I think Dr. Murray happened to be the fall guy that happened to be there to probably sort of in a sense -- I don`t want to use the word "ignite it", but instrumental in a bit.
BEHAR: To what? To administer the Propofol you think?
JACKSON: No, no, no. I`m not saying that. He was the one -- I don`t know who actually did it that night. I can`t say, I was not there.
BEHAR: It`s possible that Michael did it to himself?
JACKSON: No, it`s not possible at all, Joy. It`s not possible.
BEHAR: Why not?
JACKSON: I`ve spoken to many doctors about this --
BEHAR: Yes?
JACKSON: And first of all, you cannot administer this to yourself because the minute you try to inject in yourself -- first of all, you fall asleep immediately. Then within time you wake up, a very, very short period of time, you wake up. So --
BEHAR: I checked that because you mentioned that on "The View", the other day.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: The CNN medical folks here, they said that Propofol syringes have a battery powered pump attached which administer the medicine at a set speed which means he would not necessarily wake up.
JACKSON: Within time he would, but let me just say this to you -- what you`re saying what the doctor said, this is what the doctors have told me. Not only that, the coroner has told me and several other people the minute Michael passed, they came the following day and said this was purposely done, it was injected in him, it was enough to kill an elephant.
Somebody who did it had to stand there and make sure it kept going in him, to make sure it was there.
BEHAR: So you don`t think that the set speed that the syringe could be put at would do it?
JACKSON: He couldn`t do it, Joy, because first of all, he was hooked to all kinds of things at that time. There`s no way he could have done -- his hands weren`t free for him to do that. If you knew -- actually what was taking place and what happened at that particular time, his hands weren`t free for that, as well.
BEHAR: So it sounds as though you`re pointing the finger at people that were in his life -- you don`t say who they are, right?
JACKSON: Basically what I`m saying is that -- I`m telling you what my brother told me and the way he said it would be played out. And everything he said is taking place exactly the way he said it would do. What would happen and who would be involved. These people came back into his life that weren`t there.
BEHAR: But you don`t name who they are?
JACKSON: No.
BEHAR: You do not --
JACKSON: It`s all in the book.
BEHAR: I know it`s in the book, but you won`t say the names on TV of the people you`re talking about? Because there are specific people you`re talking.
JACKSON: They know exactly who they are. They know who they are they`re guilty of it. They know who they are.
BEHAR: They -- they`re not named in this thing I`m reading to you now, it`s called Michael`s estate. These are the people who are running Michael`s estate?
JACKSON: That`s not exactly what I`m saying. What I`m saying is that these were the group of people involved. This is a conspiracy.
BEHAR: I know --
JACKSON: When you speak of Michael`s estate, let`s talk about that for a second. You speak to that. Michael`s estate is being run by people, yes, of course. And from what I have seen and been told and heard, I know that Michael supposedly on his will, he did not have these people.
BEHAR: Those people were not in his will?
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: The will was not signed that day. The day that they signed it was -- Michael was in New York, and his will was signed supposedly and stamped in L.A., and that`s not true. Michael was in New York at that particular time.
BEHAR: What does his will say? His will says he`s leaving his money to his children?
JACKSON: Truthfully, we don`t know what it says because we truly believe that it`s not the true will. It`s a fake will because we do know that Michael was in New York at that time -- the day it was stamped according to them.
The people that the will was left to, Michael would not have allowed that to happen. I mean these are the same people he wrote about, that he talked to me, my mother, everybody about, that he did not want them in their life. He eradicated them from his life. Now they`re stepping back into the life.
BEHAR: All right. Let me read what they say.
JACKSON: Sure, go ahead.
BEHAR: "These outrageous and obviously false statements made by La Toya Jackson are further examples of a willingness to say anything involving her brother for attention or money. What do you say to that?
JACKSON: I say it`s an outright lie. First of all, Joy, I don`t need attention. I`m known. I don`t need that. I have all the money I want. I don`t need that. Why do I need that? And if you want to look into it deeply, think about this. What they`re saying my intentions for attention and money, no, absolutely not. These are the people that --
BEHAR: You don`t need money, La Toya?
JACKSON: I`m very comfortable.
BEHAR: Where did you make all your money?
JACKSON: I have several different companies Joy that I work on all the time.
BEHAR: Oh, that`s right. You have your perfume.
JACKSON: I have so many things. You have no idea that`s going on. I have a product called ASAP, which is (INAUDIBLE) -- incredible product --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: ASAP, isn`t that the thing you did with "Celebrity Apprentice"?
JACKSON: It is. That`s why I named it after that.
BEHAR: Did they allow you to do that?
JACKSON: They didn`t know. They didn`t know.
BEHAR: Does Starr Jones know that you`re using that name?
JACKSON: I made it up. Hey, no. You know what`s so funny -- she was busy saying, yes, it goes like this, this is for -- yes, you`ll see what it mean at the end of the day. Yes.
But it`s very green. That`s a product that`s incredible. It`s -- we wash our cars, I know you`re a New Yorker. But we lose anywhere from 80 to 150 gallons of water a day when we wash our car.
BEHAR: I did pee many times during the night.
JACKSON: Stop it, Joy.
BEHAR: Let me read you something from the book, which is serious. You write that Michael told you this. I want to stay on Michael for a second.
JACKSON: If we`re going to stay on him, we`re going to get back to these guys because when my brother passed, the first thing they did was collect everything that was in his possession, meaning all of his footage, knowing that they were going to put out -- look it, a movie, not only that, the Beatles` catalogue got released all of a sudden.
If you go down the list, they have Cirque du Soleil that`s coming out, whatever that is. They have all these other things that are coming out. You have to look and say, wait a minute, who stands to gain from this --
BEHAR: Take them to court. I mean you`re going to have to take them to court. Let me read you this from your book.
JACKSON: He`s worth more dead than alive.
BEHAR: You say that Michael said this to you. "I`m even afraid to walk around in my yard because I`m afraid they`re going to kill me. I could never perform again because I know they`re going to kill me. They`re watching me, they`re watching me, they`re watching me."
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Was he a little bit paranoid?
JACKSON: No, you would think that but he wasn`t because he knew. Because things, Joy, had been happening to him that this was taking place slowly. That`s why he decided to start talking and telling people. That`s why he decided to tell my mother and tell several people. He wasn`t paranoid at all.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. We`ll have more with although Toya in just a minute. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back with La Toya Jackson.
Let me start with something in the news, you know, because all this week there`s a lot of talk about J Lo and Marc Anthony getting a divorce. And this -- the scuttlebutt about it is that he`s very controlling. People are saying that. You know a little about that, right. Because didn`t you -- weren`t you married to someone that you said was controlling? Tell me about it.
JACKSON: I know a lot about it. This is what people are getting --
BEHAR: And what do you think about them?
JACKSON: This is what people are getting wrong. I don`t know Marc Anthony and J Lo. Of course, I`ve met them several times, of course. However I can`t tell you anything about that situation.
But I will say to you that my book is about abuse. It`s about what I endured all these years and what he took me through, this individual. And how people and men and we as women allow someone to take advantage of us and control us and take away our self-worth, take away our self-esteem, instill fear in us, which is what he did --
BEHAR: Your ex-husband.
JACKSON: My ex-husband.
BEHAR: Jack -- what was his name?
JACKSON: Gordon.
BEHAR: Jack Gordon.
JACKSON: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok.
JACKSON: This is what he did to me. So I want every woman to know when a man hits you one time, that`s one time too many.
BEHAR: Right.
JACKSON: You need to get out and get out of there. There is help everywhere. We have a lobby -- women don`t realize that. There is help if you can`t -- you go on the Internet, you ask for help, tweet me at Latoya anything you want, but there is help out there to get at. So you don`t have to maintain this.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: As I speak to you, Joy, right now, every eight seconds a woman is being abused as we speak. And that`s pretty sad because we are afraid -- we don`t do anything about it. We feel that we don`t have the self-worth, that we have to stay into this relationship out of this fear that --
BEHAR: Why did you stay in it?
JACKSON: I didn`t know how to get out of it, Joy.
BEHAR: Why not.
JACKSON: He instilled so much fear in me that I couldn`t make the proper moves that I wanted to make. In other words, if you don`t do this and if you don`t say what I ask you to say, I`m going to kill you and your brother. And that`s what he instilled in me all the time, and I believed him.
BEHAR: Threats?
JACKSON: The threats were major. I believed him because of people that he surrounded himself with. We used to --
BEHAR: What attracted you to him in the first place?
JACKSON: It all began with my mother not being able to go to Japan with me, and then she asked my father to go. My father couldn`t go with me. So my father says, well, can you go with her, Gordon, for a couple of days. And he went with me. When I got over there, he took my passport and said, you`re never going back home. And that`s how it all started.
I was a strict devout Jehovah Witness. I didn`t know anything. I was so naive to the world. And it`s like if you tell me something, Joy, I believed it. I was so naive.
BEHAR: How old were you?
JACKSON: I was too old to be that naive, I tell you that. I certainly was. I was too old to be that naive.
BEHAR: Well, you`re not too old if you`re raised in a very sheltered environment.
JACKSON: Very sheltered, strictly religious and I was the kind of religious person that went overboard. Whatever God said do, I did it. And I overdid it. It`s like I can`t speak you to because you`re not a Jehovah Witness. I was one of those. You`re worldly.
So he saw this person and did the antithesis of everything that I would have done. For instance -- you`re doing "Playboy". I was like, "No, you can`t make me doing do something like that." And, you know, everything that I wouldn`t do is what he did.
The reason I believed the threats of killing my brother and killing myself if I didn`t say or do what he wanted is because we practically lived on Mulberry Street meaning grouping up with these guys that were heads of families and things like that.
And I -- John Gotti, I knew all of them. I knew these guys. So I knew those threats. He would carry them through. I`m not saying they were involved in it. But I`m saying because of those reasons and hearing the conversations that went on. But they would speak openly in front of me and say -- they would call me the kid, would the kid talk. He`d say, no. She knows not to say anything.
BEHAR: Was he like your father?
JACKSON: He was like my father. When you say like my father, you mean like --
BEHAR: Personality-wise?
JACKSON: No.
BEHAR: Your father`s not controlling?
JACKSON: No, my father instilled -- what he wanted to do with us and what he did, if you see the results of my brothers and sisters and the way we are today, my father was a disciplinarian. He wanted them to focus on what they wanted in life.
This guy wasn`t. This guy abused me constantly.
BEHAR: Your father didn`t hit the children?
JACKSON: We got spankings, yes. And I know that you don`t believe in spankings --
BEHAR: I do not.
JACKSON: -- but in the old days people got spanking --
BEHAR: I didn`t and I`m much older than you.
JACKSON: I don`t know.
BEHAR: I don`t believe in spanking any time ever.
JACKSON: The Bible says spare the rod and you ruin the child --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who would believe that?
JACKSON: I`m not saying that. No. But when I left him the FBI came to me, and we had several meetings with them. It was like six, seven, eight --
BEHAR: How did you leave? What made you leave him?
JACKSON: He was forcing me to do a pornography movie. He says that he`s getting paid millions and millions of money. And you`re doing it. He says after you do it, I`m done with you. I said you know what; you`re just going to have to kill me right now. But before I said I begged for my passport because I knew I didn`t have a way out. I said, please, can you give me my passport --
BEHAR: Where was this -- what country were you in at that time?
JACKSON: No. Actually I happened to be here, right here in New York.
BEHAR: So why did you need your passport.
JACKSON: I had no identification to get away. He kept my passport, he kept everything. He took -- the minute I was with him, he transferred everything -- I never saw one penny of my money when I was working or anything. He controlled me, controlled everything.
BEHAR: How did you manage to break free emotionally from him?
JACKSON: It took a lot of me just being very analytical. I stayed at home, I was afraid to get out the door. I became very analytical and said to myself why would someone treat another person, individual like this, who`s been nothing but kind, worked for them, was their meal ticket, worked as a slave practically and do this? That`s how I became very analytical.
Then I found out that he was raised in a brothel and was --
BEHAR: He was raised in a brothel?
JACKSON: Yes. He was raised --
BEHAR: Really?
JACKSON: His uncle told me that he was raised in a brothel. As a little boy he would dance on top of the piano and the whole bit --
BEHAR: How long were you with Jack?
JACKSON: Too long.
BEHAR: Two years, ten years --
JACKSON: Too long, Joy. It was nearly ten years, I think. Nearly 10 years. A long time. A long time.
BEHAR: Are you dating anybody else now?
JACKSON: No, but I would love to say yes, yes, yes, and yes -- yes.
BEHAR: Yes? Is that yes?
JACKSON: I would love to say yes.
BEHAR: You would love to say yes. But it`s not?
JACKSON: Yes -- I have a very, very --
BEHAR: Are you scared to meet another guy because you might get ensnared in some other crazy relationship?
JACKSON: I tell you, something Joy, I think from life -- I learned every life is a learning lesson, I`ve learned a lot from this. I know the first time is not always your fault. But the second time, if I do this again, this time it`s my fault.
BEHAR: Are you still a Jehovah`s Witness?
JACKSON: No, I`m not. I`m very spiritual, but I`m not Jehovah Witness but I believe in God.
But I will say this and I`ll turn this thing back to my brother --
BEHAR: I have to go. One more thing, go ahead.
JACKSON: I know. But I want to say something, follow the money trail, if you`re dealing with Michael. All of these people are the people -- they`re afraid of me. They`re afraid what I know, what I might say. That`s their problem.
BEHAR: Are you scared? Aren`t you scared?
JACKSON: Why are they complaining about me being on a show promoting a book that has to do -- that was written before Michael passed and Michael approved of the book. He loved it.
BEHAR: Well, you`re accusing them so they`re defending themselves. That`s all -- in public.
JACKSON: I`m not accusing them. I`m just saying that -- I`m telling you what my brother told me.
BEHAR: You`re saying there`s a conspiracy to kill Michael and you --
JACKSON: That`s what Michael told me. My mother. And there was a conspiracy. Once you read the book, you will understand everything. It puts everything together.
BEHAR: Ok.
JACKSON: And it`s like, oh, now I get it.
BEHAR: All right. La Toya, always a pleasure to have you on the show.
JACKSON: Thank you.
BEHAR: Her book is called "Starting Over" and it`s out now.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: If you`re having marital problems, you and your spouse could try to work thing out by going to a qualified professional marriage counselor. But why would you when you could go to a comedian instead? Like Tom Papa, host of "The Marriage Ref". Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM PAPA, "THE MARRIAGE REF": I think I have to intervene here because there is -- there is a subject here that we`re kind of just going by.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok.
PAPA: And that is your sidekick Tony. What`s that?
Tony, ladies and gentlemen. And Tony is sometimes coming in between the two of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with us is the host of "The Marriage Ref", Tom Papa. Tom, what do most couples fight over?
PAPA: I`m starting to see some trends developing, and it seems like it`s always about power and territory.
BEHAR: Oh.
PAPA: In the house. And they use different objects. It could be throw pillows, or it could be pets or in-laws, whatever. But it`s always about who`s in charge and who is running the house.
BEHAR: Really? Do you have that in your own marriage?
PAPA: Yes.
BEHAR: You do?
PAPA: I`m the most powerful, and I run everything.
BEHAR: Ok. So there`s no problem there?
PAPA: No.
BEHAR: What is the most outrageous dispute you ever heard? Can you tell us?
PAPA: Yes. I think the weirdest one this year is this guy -- you know some people chew on their fingernails or a pen when they`re nervous, this guy devours remote controls. He like literally eats -- like nibbles on them nervously, and the cable company keeps sending new ones because they think a pit bull must be doing it.
BEHAR: That sounds like a pathology rather than a marital issue.
PAPA: Yes, but the wife has to sit and watch him. She`s trying to watch "Law and Order" and all she hears is -- there`s plastic shooting out of his mouth.
BEHAR: What you have is a panel of celebrity experts. What do celebrities know about marital issues?
I mean last episode you had George Wallace. What does he know about it? He`s never been married.
PAPA: He`s never been married.
BEHAR: Denise Richards, she was married to Charlie Sheen. Hello.
PAPA: Charlie Sheen, yes. Celebrities, you know, celebrities don`t - - they`re not going to help these people with their marriages, but they can sniff out trouble. Celebrities know a disaster when they see it.
BEHAR: And now what about this guy, a divorced guy, who blames the show and Jerry Seinfeld, by the way, for his marriage ending?
PAPA: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: He says that an appearance on your show led his ex to dump him.
PAPA: Yes. Hilarious.
BEHAR: What happened?
PAPA: He was hilarious. We met this guy, and we worked with this guy and we saw this guy. And our show was not the problem. I wish I was that powerful. I wish I had that power to --
BEHAR: He`s blaming Jerry, he`s not really blaming you because Jerry has the cash.
PAPA: Yes. Jerry`s the guy. Who are you going to go after, me, the camera guy? No, you`re going to go after Jerry --
BEHAR: You know we just found out that Lois and Superman are breaking up.
PAPA: Really?
BEHAR: Yes.
PAPA: That`s terrible. After all these years.
BEHAR: And that they`re no longer a couple. I thought they would get married. They never got married, right?
PAPA: Well, I think it`s the tights thing.
BEHAR: It`s the tights. That could be it.
PAPA: Eventually. 50 years later, you know what? The tights aren`t working for me.
BEHAR: It`s too bad they`re not a real couple. They could be on your show.
PAPA: I know. That would be nice. You should come on. I would like to see you tell these people what`s what.
BEHAR: I`m a little busy but I`ll tell them.
PAPA: Yes. You`ll tell them. Exactly.
BEHAR: Ok.
PAPA: Every little thing, what would Joy say?
BEHAR: Joy would say, so what? Who cares? So if you`re in the Washington, D.C., area, check out Tom Papa at the D.C. Improv Friday and Saturday.
We`ll be right back. Thanks, Tom.
PAPA: Thanks, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s release has done nothing to quiet the public outrage against her. In fact, some protesters were even yelling "Justice for Caylee and baby killer" as she was driven away from prison. Where does that anger come from, and is forgiveness possible in the case like this? Joining me to discuss this, are Father Edward Beck, he is a religion contributor for ABC News, and Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of "Renewal: A Guide to the Values-Filled Life." Why do you think, Father, there is so much rage toward this girl, Casey Anthony?
FATHER EDWARD BECK: Because there`s no closure. I think people never got to hear what really happened in their minds, and so they figure if there`s no closure, they have to put their anger somewhere, they don`t know what to do with it. And so I think that it comes out in this rage because it`s misplaced really.
BEHAR: But there`s no closure in a lot of cases. Why this one?
BECK: Because it was so heavily covered. People watched this every day and they had their own opinions of her guilt or not being guilty. And when it was left so up-ended, I think it disturbed people. They want to know what happened to this little girl, who should pay for it, what should the just punishment be, and I think that`s the real reason for it, because -- and, of course, people have this retribution thing.
BEHAR: Yes.
BECK: They want to get back.
BEHAR: They do.
BECK: And I`m -- I don`t agree with that perspective.
BEHAR: Vindictiveness, too. There`s a lot of vindictiveness. Rabbi, do you think that people feel that she got away with murder? Is that what part of this anger is?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH: Well, firstly, I think that we are being unfair to those who are expressing what you are calling rage. Maybe it`s righteous indignation. I`m not sure that this comes from a feeling of revenge. This might stem from a genuine feeling that we`re tired of children being abused in this country. We`re tired of children being exploited in this country.
BEHAR: Right.
BOTEACH: Maybe it`s the desire to really protect the innocence of a child. We`re tired of women who are young and attractive getting away with things simply because they look so cutsie while sitting in court. This was an abominable, monstrous crime. And it`s not about someone having to pay for it, it`s about a dead baby. And whatever you feel whether she was guilty or not, Casey Anthony, you`re talking about a missing child that was not reported for a month.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BOTEACH: You`re talking about the worst mother in the world. And people are justly upset. We`re tired of the fact that ...
BECK: I disagree with you. First of all, you are now indicting her after she has been shown to be innocent in a court of law.
BEHAR: Not innocent. Not guilty.
BECK: Not guilty in the court of law.
BEHAR: That`s different.
BECK: You`re saying the worst mother in the world. All the testimony was that she was very loving with this daughter. It was nothing beforehand ...
BEHAR: But no, she did not report the child missing for 31 days.
BECK: Yeah, but ...
BEHAR: And she was partying the whole time. That`s what he`s talking about.
BECK: Could she not have had a psychological break of denial? The accident happened, her daughter was dead. This is her way of retreating to another world? Kind of protecting herself from it?
BOTEACH: We can -- we can take that approach.
BEHAR: That`s kind of you.
BOTEACH: We can take that approach of excusing abominable, immoral behavior by saying that people snap, or we can finally hold people accountable. The fact is that children in this country are at risk. They are exploited every day for personal gain, profiteering on the part of corporations. The innocence of children is being lost.
BEHAR: It is -- you`re right.
BOTEACH: I don`t call it rage, I call it righteous indignation. And that`s why the vast majority of people who are upset at Casey Anthony are women. It`s their maternal instinct that is driving them to say enough is enough. That`s misplaced.
BEHAR: But you know what -- they don`t know the woman. This is not personal.
BOTEACH: But they know that every child is of infinite value, and they know that this child was very precious. And when your child is missing, you go to the police and you say immediately, I want you to dig up the whole damn state of Florida and find my daughter, and I will get the first shovel. What you don`t do is go to a flipping disco. It`s disgusting. It`s abominable and it`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: A flipping disco.
BECK: No, rabbi, you certainly have enough rage in you about this ...
BOTEACH: I`m very upset with the story ...
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: My goodness.
BOTEACH: And I`m upset that we don`t know right from wrong in this country anymore.
BEHAR: You`re probably also upset about the other boy, that little Hasidic boy who was killed in Brooklyn last week by this maniac who was -- tell me about that rage.
BOTEACH: Well, Levi Aron, who is a member of our Orthodox Jewish community, ostensibly at least on the outside, really isn`t even a member of the human family. When you do something like that, like dismember a poor, innocent child, and the -- I will -- it will forever be seared on my soul, the security camera pictures of this boy with the backpack, simply looking for home. We`re all searching for home. This kid was two, three blocks away. And the way providence brought him to the one person who`s a diabolical fiend in the neighborhood of Borough Park ...
BEHAR: I know.
BOTEACH: And you ask yourself what was God thinking. But this man has no spirit, Levi Aron. He is not a member of the human family. He is a -- a husk. Bereft of a soul, bereft of spirit.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that when he says he`s not a member of the human family ...
BECK: No.
BEHAR: Because, you know, the human family has a lot of weird things going on.
BECK: And once again you have a psychotic individual, mentally ill. You cannot simply demonize people who are psychologically ill.
BOTEACH: Father Beck.
BECK: I mean, that is totally -- let me speak, please.
BOTEACH: I`m sorry, I`m sorry.
BECK: You cannot demonize people and say they`re abominable -- and -- I mean what kind of judgment is that? What about judge not and you will not be judged? What about forgiveness, seventy times seven forgiveness, what about taking the plank out of your own eye?
BEHAR: You know, Father Beck, don`t you believe that you -- some things you just can`t forgive?
BECK: No.
BEHAR: You don`t believe that.
BECK: Christian tradition says everything is forgivable. In God`s mercy and compassion, everything is forgivable.
BEHAR: I don`t agree with that.
BOTEACH: I don`t believe ...
BECK: I do. I do think so.
BEHAR: I know you believe that, but I don`t agree with that. There are some crimes that are so heinous, so hellacious that I wouldn`t -- couldn`t be able -- people who lose their families in the Holocaust. I could never forgive the Nazis for that if this happened to me. I could never forgive this guy if he (ph) killed my child.
BECK: But you live in prison then. You live in prison then.
BEHAR: No, I don`t. I have a righteous anger and rage.
BECK: No, when someone doesn`t forgive, it binds you up. It doesn`t really do anything to the perpetrator.
BEHAR: I know. For sure. What`s the point?
BECK: It binds you up.
BOTEACH: No, I must respond. Father Beck, it is not for us to forgive the crimes when we are not the victim. Who are we to bestow forgiveness when we are not the object of the injury? On the contrary, that`s intruding upon someone else`s life ...
BECK: Exactly.
BOTEACH: You can`t come to the parents of Leibby Kletzky and say that they should forgive. You don`t understand their pain. Forgive what? Are we really going to take Jesus, who was a Jewish rabbi, and say that he had no morality, that he was prepared to forgive absolutely everything and render Christianity into a useless religion that doesn`t know right from wrong?
BECK: From the cross. From the cross. His own murderers, he said, forgive them, they know not what they are doing.
BOTEACH: But he also said, my God, why has thou forsaken me?
BECK: But that`s not forgiveness, we are talking about forgiveness here.
BOTEACH: Jesus said to God, the Romans should not be doing this to me. Why have you forsaken me?
BEHAR: Let me ask you something, is it easier to forgive when it`s about yourself rather than a child? Because Jesus is saying forgive them for what they do to me. Not to my son or my daughter or whatever.
BECK: But who are you forgiving in this instance? When you`re saying forgive about the child, how can you say forgive Casey Anthony when all we have to forgive her for right now is lying to the police?
BEHAR: No, I`m talking about this other guy.
BECK: Well ...
BEHAR: This other guy who killed this boy. And you know, is it harder, rabbi, to forgive a perpetrator in this particular case that you`re talking about when the crime was committed by someone with ...
BOTEACH: Of course it`s harder because we want to believe that Judaism as a religion tries to sensitize us to the pain of every living creature. Animals, and of course human beings, and this man who`s supposed to share our values could behave so abominably. But Father, he was not psychotic. He said in his police statement that after he suffocated the child with a bath towel, he regretted his actions. He demonstrated a clear understanding of right from wrong. It is not true that we can excuse every evil act by saying that people are psychotic. And by the way, if you believe ...
BECK: Well, pedophilia is an illness --
BOTEACH: If you believe that we should not judge, then you`re saying that Casey Anthony should have never been put on trial. You`re indicting the entire judicial system of the United States.
BEHAR: You know, why do you say that pedophilia is a mental illness? Isn`t it about an adult being powerful over a child ...
BECK: But it`s a mental -- no, no.
BEHAR: ... and using that trust to betray that child? Isn`t that what that`s about?
BECK: No, but that attraction is considered a mental illness. It`s a disorder, a sexual disorder. Pedophilia. They can`t help themselves.
BEHAR: What about the cover-up? Is that a sin?
BECK: Well, it`s interesting, and this raises another issue -- there were signs in this community that this guy was problematic. And when something like this happens, they say, go to the rabbi, don`t go to the law enforcement.
BEHAR: Why do they do this?
BECK: We`ve dealt with this in the Catholic Church.
BEHAR: Yeah, that`s right.
BECK: You know, don`t go to the law enforcement.
BEHAR: Oh, this (ph) stuff --
BECK: I think they cover up stuff.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BOTEACH: I think it`s a bit unfair to call this a cover-up. He had never molested a child. No child had come forward and said he did anything.
BEHAR: But now, some woman said that he ...
BOTEACH: So we`re not talking about ...
BEHAR: Wait a minute. Some woman, a neighbor, said that he had tried to kidnap her son at one point.
BECK: Right.
BOTEACH: OK, I don`t know that anyone -- there is no evidence whatsoever that people went to rabbis who covered this up. So to call it a cover-up is to pass judgment on something for which there is absolutely no evidence.
BEHAR: It wasn`t a cover-up.
BOTEACH: What I will say...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It was a question of let`s do it ourselves.
BOTEACH: What I will say absolutely is that I`m not here ...
BEHAR: The same as the church.
BECK: The same as the church.
BOTEACH: What I will say absolutely is that his actions were heinous and abominable. And I don`t believe that the purpose of religion is to say that we can never pass judgment. When Jesus says love your enemies, he`s specific, your enemies, not God`s enemies. Your enemy steals your parking spot. God`s enemy is someone guilty of raping, dismembering small children. And society has to draw a line. That`s why we have a prison system.
BEHAR: Are they going to go to hell, these people? Just tell me they`re going to go to hell, please.
BOTEACH: Well, you know.
BEHAR: Both of you, I`m begging you, tell me.
BOTEACH: The beautiful thing about being Jewish is that we don`t believe in hell. So if you get there, just say, I`m Jewish, you can`t send me there.
BECK: And I say, it`s not up to us, it`s up to God who goes to hell.
BOTEACH: Of course, people like that, are going to go to hell.
BEHAR: A righteous God will send them to hell. We`ll be right back.
BECK: Your righteousness.
BEHAR: Thank you.
BECK: Sister Josephine (ph).
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Casey Anthony has been a free woman for almost two days now after being acquitted of murdering her daughter. It was just over three years ago that we first learned of little Caylee`s disappearance.
Back then, Nancy Grace was on the case and has not let up since. She joins me to talk about the latest and what lies ahead. Hi, Nancy.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Hi Joy. Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Sure. So now, what kind of life do you think she`s going to live now? I mean she`s going to be hounded, I would think, by -- many people hate her. What`s she going to do?
GRACE: You know, Joy, I thought about that a lot, too. All these threats of vigilante justice and how people are going to come after her.
BEHAR: Yes, what about it?
GRACE: I think mostly people feel just disdain. I don`t think very many people feel the urge to go after tot mom. And also Joy, you know, you and I have often disagreed on a lot of subjects, but we both agree on one thing -- we both agree on many things, actually, but we want justice. We want what`s right. Nobody want vigilantism or any tragedy to befall tot mom as a result of public anger.
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: Nobody wants that. And -- I really don`t think that`s going to happen. And the reason I say that, Joy, is because the Orlando sheriff`s department said, you know what, if she had a credible threat against her life, we would be protecting her. But there`s not a threat.
Anything that`s been said has been cooked up by the defense team. And so they were not concerned about any of the threats. So, if they`re not concerned, I`m not concerned.
BEHAR: I was thinking more about being socially shunned. Which I think she will be in many areas --
GRACE: Boo hoo.
BEHAR: Boo hoo is right.
GRACE: Who cares if she`s socially shunned? You know, water seeks its own level, Joy, as you well know. Look at Simpson, O.J. Simpson. He found a group of cronies that would hang around with him, party with him. Use his liquor, use his drugs. He had a beautiful model living with him. You know, they all propped him up. He`s the man.
You know what, she`ll find people to hang out with her. Let`s just say she ain`t getting invited to dinner up at the White House any time soon. So who cares who she hangs out with? I`m sure she`ll be at some bar dancing on a stripper pole any time now.
BEHAR: You know, O.J., you mentioned him. He tripped himself up pretty good. He`s in jail. Maybe she`ll do that to herself. I mean, what do you think are the chances of her doing something again?
GRACE: I think that the chances of her doing something again are pretty good, Joy. I know that defies logic, because you think, hey, you came this close to the death penalty and this close to life behind bars, why would you screw it up now?
But I mean, when you don`t know a horse, Joy, look at his track record. What is her track record? Stealing from friends, stealing hundreds -- hundreds of checks to the tunes of thousands of dollars from her own parents, stealing gas, stealing money, stealing things from her family, lying over and over and over. Of course she`s going to trip up again.
I don`t know if she`s ever going to get caught per se by the law, but sure she`s going to trip up. That`s her nature.
BEHAR: What about these people who are planning to sue Casey? Are any of these lawsuits going to bring her back to court?
GRACE: Well, under the law -- I mean look, you and I show up in jury duty because there`s a little tiny sentence at the bottom of the subpoena that says you could go to jail if you don`t show up for jury duty.
Will she show up? I don`t know. If she doesn`t show up, she`s in contempt. I don`t know if that`s going bother her or not.
BEHAR: George and Cindy Anthony`s attorney said that Jose Baez wanted to use them as decoys. I mean, he wouldn`t tell them where she was -- where she was going. Do you think that`s kind of rude?
I mean, after all, they took the hit. He accused George Anthony of molesting the child. Her relationship with -- with Cindy was out there, and it wasn`t very pleasant. And now he`s asking them to be decoys. That`s kind of nervy, don`t you think?
GRACE: You know, Joy, I thought about that a lot when I first heard it. You know, right after the acquittal, that Friday evening, Cindy Anthony tries to see her daughter. And I know for a fact, Joy -- a lot of people don`t know this about you -- you are a mother and a very loving mother.
BEHAR: A grandmother.
GRACE: Yes. And you are very beloved by everybody in your family. There is that -- that deep, deep abiding love. Can you imagine your daughter turning you away and refusing to see her when you are begging her to talk to you?
BEHAR: No. I can`t imagine it.
GRACE: So I can`t either. And you know, every night -- and I know I`m going far afield, Joy -- but every night my little girl, Lucy, sometime between 2:00 and 5:00 a.m. wakes up, comes and get -- crawls out of her crib like an acrobat, and comes and gets in bed with me.
And I just can`t even imagine -- imagine that one day she would say, "Mommy, go away." And I -- I`m thinking about what Cindy Anthony has been through. A lot of people believe that Cindy Anthony put her own life on the line and committed perjury --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s right.
GRACE: To try to save tot mom, and that George Anthony sat in that courtroom and took it when tot mom falsely accused him of molesting her, forcing her into oral sex and then trundling her off to the school bus within the hour as if nothing was wrong.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, you know --
GRACE: None of that was brought -- was proven at trial, none of it.
BEHAR: Right.
GRACE: And now being used once again. The money that tot mom left the jail with, about $500. A lot of that was what Cindy Anthony and George Anthony had been giving her. She would take their money when they would come visit but she wouldn`t see them.
And they kept coming and they kept giving her money. They kept standing by her. They kept coming to court, possibly committed -- committed perjury. George held up to ridicule. The jury thinks maybe he had something to do with the murder. And now they -- she won`t even tell them --
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: -- where she is. And they`re asking where are you, what`s happening. Yet at the very end wants to use them as a media decoy? So if some madman is out there with a gun and takes a shot, oh yes, here`s my mom and dad, have at them. It`s crazy.
BEHAR: I know, it is crazy.
But you know to the point of whether she -- she should talk to her parents and how our children, of course, would speak to us, I`ve had some shrinks on the show who say she is a sociopath. And sociopaths lack empathy. They lack the normal things that people like us have, to -- to have a healthy -- mentally healthy life.
That was the --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Well, that may very well be true. And in fact, that plays right into the state`s theory that as she was killing a baby, her baby, she felt absolutely no empathy. It`s like you`re looking at a toad, and the toad looks back at you but it doesn`t understand how you feel or what you`re thinking.
That`s what they`re getting. When you look at tot mom, she looks back and blinks, but there`s no empathy, there`s no understanding, there`s no human emotion at all.
BEHAR: I take it you don`t -- I take it you don`t accept the verdict?
GRACE: You know what, I -- I accept that due process was done and the jury rendered a verdict. But I mean, remember that pesky little thing called the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment?
BEHAR: Yes.
GRACE: We have every right in the world to closely examine our justice system when it fails and when it works.
BEHAR: You know --
GRACE: I think it failed this time.
BEHAR: You know, Nancy, I have to give you credit because you`ve stayed on the case from the very beginning, and, you know, I even said it on "The View". I mean, this case would not -- not be the cause celebre that if it weren`t for Nancy Grace.
And I feel that you brought it to national attention. And for that, I give you credit.
OK. I have one more segment with you. I want to ask you about a couple of other cases that are brewing right now.
GRACE: OK, Joy.
BEHAR: So we`ll have more with Nancy after this break.
GRACE: Thank you.
BEHAR: OK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Nancy Grace.
You know, Nancy, I want to talk to you about this other horrific Brooklyn case quickly. This 8-year-old kid, Liebby Kletzky was abducted and murdered by a stranger, although he was in the neighborhood and people knew him, last week. Is it unusual for a child to be abducted by a stranger or is that usually happening with people that the child knows?
GRACE: Well, the stats show out of about 800,000 abductions a year -- 800,000, nearly a million -- only about 50,000 -- closer to 60,000 -- 58,000; only about 60,000 of those are stranger abductions. So a very small percentage are -- when I say stranger, I mean somebody you`ve never met before. I don`t mean the next-door neighbor or your kooky aunt or a parental abduction or the grocery boy. I don`t mean the neighbor; I mean a complete stranger abduction.
It`s only about 60,000 out of nearly a million abductions a year. So this was odd.
BEHAR: I see, that`s interesting. Wow. You can`t even trust the people you know.
GRACE: No. You can`t, and it`s just so heart-wrenching because the little boy had wanted to walk home by himself. They had practiced it. The parents did everything right if they were going to let him do it at all. They did dry runs. They went over and over -- he was going to get to walk halfway home -- I can hardly stand to look at the video --
BEHAR: I can`t look at it either. I mean, he was 8 years old. Maybe kids should not be walking home alone at 8 years old.
GRACE: You know what, when I was growing up, we could get on our bicycles, Joy, and ride and ride and ride. It was a very rural area. And then we would be so far from home, we could only hear -- they would blow the car horn in the distance, and we would come home.
BEHAR: I know, it was different -- I don`t know if it was a different time or what.
GRACE: I think it was both.
BEHAR: Both what? Both a different time and--
GRACE: A different time and a different sense of right and wrong and what you can do and not do, and what you can get away with really.
BEHAR: Yes, but I wonder if the statistics show that there were just as many abductions in those days but people couldn`t be --
GRACE: Per capita?
BEHAR: Yes, but we didn`t report it. Or people were not aware of it the way they are today, because you know, Oprah and Phil Donahue, those shows really brought this sort of thing to the forefront.
GRACE: I`ve got a feeling -- and I don`t think there`s any way to document it, as you are referring to the same thought. Because it wasn`t reported as much, you did not have the media on it the way you do now. I`ve got a feeling that per capita, the numbers may have been the same.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you very much, Nancy. Always a pleasure to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise, Joy, thank you.
BEHAR: Before we go, don`t forget, CNN and HLN are the very first news networks in the United States to stream 24-hour news online and on mobile. Which means even if you`re not sitting in front of the TV, you can watch live, including breaking news, check out CNN.com/video to find out how. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
