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Dr. Drew
Polygamist Leader Warren Jeffs on Trial for Child Sexual Assault
Aired July 26, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. Warren Jeffs trial day two. The religious sect leader faces charges of sexual assault on children. Is Jeffs still arranging marriages between young women and men from his jail cell? And should the mothers be held accountable. I`m talking to a former sect member who says, yes.
And later, famous men, infamous infidelity. Why do powerful men like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Anthony Weiner cheat?
I`m taking that question to the wives. Let`s go figure this out.
Warren Jeffs -- Prophet according to his followers. Accused of forcing young girls to marry old men. How does this go on?
When this story came out, disgust. And then layer and layer of details surfaced. And now everybody`s asking again, how does this happen? How could mothers hand off their little girls to men in their 50s?
The answer is you have to get to them early when they`re kids, little kids. Some of these groups have very brutal means of forging loyalty in their followers including a method explained to me yesterday by a former sect member.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURIE ALLEN, FORMER MEMBER, LEBARON POLYGAMOUS SECT: They take children from the time they`re born and they just strip them of all their emotions. Like babies, for example, they water board them. When a baby starts crying they`ll hold its face under water so it will stop crying.
PINSKY: Oh, God.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes. Turning our stomachs, but it should also open our eyes. This is about indoctrination and mind control.
Religious freedom is precious but this is not about religion. It`s about traumatizing young children to warp their minds for selfish purposes. This leaves a scar behind that could last a lifetime.
Now, this is an extreme case, but maybe we can generalize this a bit. We always stress the enormous impact of early childhood abuse whether it`s water boarding as we heard, rape, or emotional abuse in a family.
We`ve got to appreciate the impact on kids. We`ve got to keep this in mind. That`s what`s behind the stories which blew up when authorities raided Warren Jeffs` West Texas compound in 2008. That was before his arrest.
Removing then returning 400 children because of fears of abuse, tempers flared, publicity spiked all leading up to the trial underway this week.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: This is the second day in the trial of polygamous leader Warren Jeffs.
He`s accused of sexually assaulting two girls whom he allegedly considered to be his wives. Jury selection started yesterday. Jeffs pleaded not guilty to charges stemming from a 2008 raid on his compound.
With a head of a breakaway sect of the Mormon Church thousands consider him a prophet. But prosecutors consider him to be a child sexual predator.
ALLEN: This isn`t religion. This is child prostitution under the guise of religion.
They have so many layers they hide these children under and so many levels of enforcers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: More than 200 jurors are going to be whittled down to a 12 member panel. The judges told them it could last weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So tonight we are asking, Warren Jeffs prophet or pedophile?
Polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs is on trial for sexually assaulting two child brides.
I choke on that term even. They were age 12 and 14. And check this out. He even had a baby with the 14-year-old. How quaint.
Now, I`m asking this how many times tonight how is this accepted and encouraged in the world which is called FLDS, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
And just what is the FLDS? Let`s break that down for you.
All right. The FLDS emerged in the early 20th century after church members were excommunicated from the LDS, which is the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, for continuing the approximate of polygamy.
Now, as you know, the current members of the FLDS still practice polygamy to this day. The FLDS is one of the largest Mormon fundamentalist organizations in the U.S. check this out with over 10,000 members.
In 2002 Warren Jeffs assumed the leadership role of the FLDS but resigned in 2007 after his rape conviction. At least we think he resigned. We`re not sure.
Joining us to talk about Jeffs and the FLDS is Laurie Alan. She`s a former member of the Le Baron Polygamous sect and the producer of "Banking on Heaven."
We also have Flora Jessup who is a former member of the FLDS church and escaped from the FLDS at age 15 after being forced to marry an older cousin.
And on the phone we have Sam Brower, a private investigator of the FLDS lawsuit and author of the new book "Prophet`s Pray."
Sam, I`m going to start with you, is Warren Jeffs actually the current leader of the FLDS?
SAM BROWER, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR, FLDS LAWSUITS: Yes, he is. He is leading his program, his church behind bars right now. He`s spending thousands of dollars a month, estimates between $3,000 and $10,000 a month on calling cards to call into his congregation and to give them instructions and tell them what to do and lead them and give them new revelations and so forth.
So absolutely he`s still running the show from behind bars.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this. As such, is he still arranging these marriages with children?
BROWER: Well, it`s hard to say for sure if he`s doing that behind bars. He`s been known in the past to sneak out these revelations and make those arrangements outside of using the phones because the phones are recorded and can be used against him.
But that being said, he -- that system of underage marriage is a historical cast system that has been in place for decades. Their religion has devolved to the point to where that is just such a major part of their life, their religion, and their history that it would be just very awkward for them to leave that behind.
PINSKY: Laurie, I`m going to you. You produced a documentary called "Banking on Heaven" about women who have escaped from polygamous cults. I`m going to re-ask the question I keep sort on asking vapors which is how is this still happening in this day and age?
ALLEN: Well, this is what I`d like to know. I mean why is it Texas can clean this up and convict these men in such a short period of time meanwhile this has been going on for generations in Utah and Arizona and the legislatures and law enforcement aren`t doing anything about it.
In fact a lot of times when the young girls do run away, they just simply pick them up and take them back to their perpetrators and just sweep it all over under the carpet.
So I`m hoping with this trial that we`ll get some activity in Utah and Arizona because the group in Texas is relatively small. It is kind of the elite of the FLDS that are down there.
What about the other 10,000 to 12,000 people that have no protection? The police are polygamous. You can`t dial 911 to get help if you`re being raped or molested whatever. They have no protection and their rights are stripped away from the day they`re born.
PINSKY: So Laurie, I want you to use your strongest language to respond to somebody who would say something like this is cloaked in religious freedom. It`s America. And who are we to say? This is just their cultural values. What would you say to somebody like that?
ALLEN: Well, it`s like these lawyers who argue that you know this is the first amendment and they don`t know the law. It`s just amazing when you hear that because it doesn`t give you -- religious freedom doesn`t give you the right to do everything you want. You can`t throw your first born in the volcano.
There are laws to protect children and there are laws about fraud with welfare and these other things that go unchecked.
I mean they simply give them anything they want in that town. $20 to $30 million a years just in welfare in food stamps just to keep them quiet. It`s just outrageous what is going on. It`s like these children have no protection from their parents who you think would be the first to protect them. Their mother, nothing. T
They`re al part of this pedophile cult. Until Utah - you know you hear the attorney general in Utah Mark Shurtleft giving lip service to the press al the time, but then years have passed. Seven years, nothing. They`ve done nothing up there. I don`t know why.
PINSKY: Flora, we have less than a minute left. I want to ask you a quick question. You`ll be back on the next segment. But you were one of those victims of I think she called it a pedophile cult. And you were sent back. Tell us what that was like being sent back after escaping?
We have less than a minute.
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER MEMBER, FLDS: It is absolutely devastating to think that the Social Service agencies mandated to protect these children send you back to the predators.
And I spent three years in solitary confinement for trying to get that help within outside of the cult. I was locked up in the cult for three years. And this is primarily what happens to the children.
So not protecting them is destroying them and making them feel as though they never have a chance or opportunity.
And even if they do try again, nobody on the outside of the cult will help them. So it`s just -- it makes these children feel so helpless and hopeless of ever getting out and getting safe.
PINSKY: Thank you to Laurie and Sam and Flora.
They will of course be back in the next segment.
Up next, why aren`t the mothers of these children actually being held responsible for the sexual abuse the children are forced to endure.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now they have disrupted a whole with community of mothers and children that only get to see each other by state permission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Tonight polygamous leader Warren Jeffs on trial for child sexual assault. These charges stem from evidence collected at the 2008 raid on the FLDS West Texas ranch where 400 kids were taken from their families due to reports of child abuse.
Although the children were eventually returned, many believe the allegations of physical and sexual abuse still are ongoing today.
But who is really to blame here? Why are these moms letting their 12- year-old daughters marry 50-year-old men as it is alleged in the Jeffs trial?
Let`s take a look at some of the FLDS mothers who were upset their children were taken during the 2008 raid.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My story is we have had our children taken from us on an allegation that has no foundation. Now we will do whatever it takes to get the children reunited with their mothers.
CPS has told us we now have this long court battle that could last up to a couple of years and our children be spread out into homes that the state decides in. And we would only get to see our children by state permission.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Here with me tonight is Loni Coombs, a former Los Angeles county prosecutor.
KTVK Investigator reporter Michael Watkiss who is covering the trial in San Angelo. And former FLDS Flora Jessop is back with me in Florida.
Flora, I want to ask you, do you agree I think I suspect you do, that the moms are also to blame here?
JESSOP: Absolutely. One of the things after that raid that occurred, me being sent back by CPS in Utah and Arizona I went to Texas a year after the raid and was extremely angry at the state agencies in Texas when I went there.
And I came away from visiting that state. I traveled around the state and visited the homes where those children were kept. Talked to hundreds of CPS caseworkers and came away from there with the realization that the CPS caseworkers, local CPS Texas case workers were just as heartbroken and devastated by the fact that the court had sent those children back as those children had to have been.
They physically had to push children across the room while they begged them not to make them return to the abuse. And their hands were tied. There was nothing they could do.
And a lot of those caseworkers have talked to me and told me personally that they in their interactions with these mothers felt that these mothers had as much culpability as these men did when it came to abusing these children.
And you know you have to look past the soft-spoken, old-style hairdos with their fuzzy care bear colored prairie dresses and realize these women are just as culpable as the men in these communities abusing these kids and they have need to be held accountable for that.
PINSKY: I agree that the crazy conundrum is women ho are now perps or perpetrating with the leaders were themselves the abused children which is something that often happens.
Michael, I want to ask you, do you think the publicity of this trial is going to bring awareness of these issues and maybe something will change?
MICHAEL WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, KTVK: Well, I wish I thought that was the case, Dr. Drew. But I`ve been telling these stories for 25 years working with Flora for the last couple of decades telling these stories.
This is not the first time these guys have been prosecuted. It`s not the first time the rest of the media has dropped and said "oh, my goodness". What`s going on in our country?
But the attention span seems to be that absorb you know very limited. And I can only hope that this is finally the time that people recognize that this has been going on for generations.
Little girls are deprived of any meaningful opportunity or education. They were put into these marriages at 13, 14. They were doing that a hundred years ago. And the stories are out there.
I really - I feel like I`m becoming the media contrarian because it`s sort of shameful. It`s willful ignorance on the part of the media and the law enforcement and elected officials in Utah and Arizona.
And the truth is out there. And it has been told over and over and over again. The casting out of these boys. And you`re saying -- you`re asking all the right questions, doctor. How did this happen? Well, it happened because we`ve all been ignorant and haven`t been paying attention. These children have been suffering for generations.
PINSKY: I get that. Well, we`re trying to direct our attention to this. And I think the collective consciousness is coming up. There are TV shows about this now. I`m just an average guy. I kind a understanding this. I want to direct my attention to it, really dig into it deep.
And Loni I want to ask you, should charges be raised against these mothers?
LONI COOMBS, FORMER LA COUNTY PROSECUTOR: You know I think something drastic like that has to happen. I make the comparison of Jaycee Dugard who was taken by a child molester at the age of 12.
And the difference is her mother would have sent her dying last breath to try and save her daughter from that child molester. Do anything she could to bring her to safety.
These mothers are so far from that, not only that they aren`t trying to save their daughter, they`re sewing the wedding dresses. They handing them the bouquet then pushed them down the aisle with -
PINSKY: But it`s like the moms and the daughters are the captives as of Jaycee Dugard`s captive.
COOMBS: That`s right. It`s the cycle. It continues on. And they don`t know any better. But something drastic has to be done because right now whether you call it brainwashing or indoctrination, they believe it`s the right thing to do and they are abusing their children.
PINSKY: And I would caution anyone out there that has a relativistic point of view that let`s take an extreme example.
If you - I think in the last segment you heard, I guess Laurie said, you`re taking your child and throwing it in the volcano to appease the volcano gods, I think we`re going to stop that. I think we`ll say that`s not OK. How is this different?
COOMBS: It`s not. There is religious freedom and there is child molestation and the two should not be confused. There`s no excused once the other.
PINSKY: How about the abuse of the women here? First, we heard stories from Laurie yesterday of physical abuse of young males and we know that`s going on. But what about the abuse of women, this is seems to be primary perpetrated on women, is it not?
COOMBS: That`s right. It`s really kind of stuck in the 50s more of a gender suppression of women and -
PINSKY: I`m going to say this is almost like - yes ma`am? Go ahead Flora.
JESSOP: I would like to jump in here because one of the aspects and the dynamics of the culture you`ve got to understand is the domestic violence in these communities is not in large part from the men.
It is from the women on each other. In order to be the favored wife, the most closest to your husband, in order to get into heaven you have to be the favorite wife and be invited by your husband.
And in order to maintain that favor, you must make sure that the other wives are beaten down. I didn`t see domestic violence -- I saw some domestic violence from the men to the women but the majority of domestic violence I witnessed as a child was women on women due to that.
PINSKY: Michael, close us out. I have 15 seconds. Where do we need to go with this?
Ten seconds. Let`s do it.
WATKISS: What do you need to do? You need to prosecute men. You need to prosecute the women. Arizona and Utah law officers need to decertify all the cops in those communities who are the enforcers. People need to step up and do their jobs.
PINSKY: We`ll keep watching the story.
And we will be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Well, we`ve had many shall we say impassioned responses to the trial of Warren Jeffs. Let`s get to a few of them right now.
This is Kristi in California. Go ahead.
KRISTI, CALLER, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): Hi, Dr. Drew. I understand that sometimes there is abuse in situations like this. And I totally disagree with the marriage and sexual relationships with teens. But if the children really are safe, then I wonder why do we want to control their lifestyle? I mean, if the kids are happy and healthy then we should leave them alone. And worry about the kids in single parent homes that are abused or uncared for.
PINSKY: You know, there are Kristi different kinds of abuse. And you`re right. There`s overt abuse and we`ve got plenty of that to focus on. But this is another kind of abuse as well.
I think you heard earlier in the program that the kinds of mind control and physical abuse of both babies and young boys. I mean in addition to what -- let`s call it what it is, sexual abuse.
So even though it may have a glossy appearance on the outside, the fact is the impact in individual and shall we say the souls is just the same.
Chris on facebook writes "many of the people who grew up in the sect just became socialized to its customs. Is that brainwashing?"
That`s good question. You`re right brain washing is certainly not the right term to be used here. And the fact is you have to kind of think - you it`s a very, very challenging question. It begs the cultural relativism. There is right and wrong, guys. There is.
And if a cultural norm has something wrong going on, I think we have an obligation to step in. Think about that.
Mark`s tweeting he asks," can the Warren Jeffs case be seen as a pedophilia cult that`s being disguised as a religion?
I think you`ve heard some of my guests say things such as precisely that. That is exactly what it is. That it`s found refuge in the veil of religious freedoms. But in fact it`s far, far different.
Back to the phones. Cathy in Tennessee, go ahead.
CATHY, CALLER, TENNESSEE: Hi, Dr. Drew. I wanted to make a comment. Warren Jeffs is the worst kind of sociopath that I can think of. His victims are brained-washed and these (inaudible) with satanic situation they`ve been involved with.
PINSKY: Yes. You know, I agree with you that it requires a sociopath to step into this kind of position where they really don`t appreciate who people are or what they`re doing to them.
Yes, they have a sense of doing what`s right. But you couldn`t possibly engage in these behaviors if you have empathic capacity to understand other people`s feelings.
Niko on facebook writes "what are some of the long-term effects on those children in the sect who may have been sexually assaulted?"
Boy, it is obviously terribly complicated. On one level it`s no different than any other sexual abuse survivor. It shatters the child`s ability to regulate their emotions. They retreat in a world of disassociation and emotion disconnect. And they have terrible boundaries. Even their body boundaries, the one thing that they should help fell protected by from their family and their community that has no boundaries. And that was deeply, deeply violated.
And adding to that is the fact that the perpetrator may have been somebody important, may have somebody they kind of thought they loved, may have been a family member. These are very complex issues and will haunt them the rest of their lives.
Warren Jeffs followers call him a prophet. And prosecutors calling him a sexual predator.
Up next we`ll get to the latest on day two of jury selection and what others are saying about this trial.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): It`s day two in the trial of Warren Jeffs, the religious leader accused of sexually assaulting two children and forcing many more to wed men as old as 50. Is he still arranging those unions right from jail? I`m asking reporters close to the story, lawyers who know the case, and a victim who got away.
And later, sex, lies, and sometimes, videotape. Arnold Schwarzenegger, the new father, Anthony Weiner, the new unemployed, just two of the famous philanders making headlines lately. Why do so many powerful men cheat? I`m asking the wives.
WILLIE E. JESSOP, FORMER JEFF`S FOLLOWER: And he said he`s a very wicked man, and he confessed to doing some very terrible things including molesting his daughter and sister and others. I think his own words described himself more than I would care to characterize it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Warren Jeffs is on trial for the sexual assault of a young girl who was allegedly one of his many brides. Today is day two of jury selection. More than 200 jurors will be cut down to a 12 member panel with two alternates who will then sit and hear the case. The judge says this could last several weeks. Jeffs says he has a direct connection to God and thousands consider him a prophet. Prosecutors say he is a sexual predator.
Joining me tonight is Michael Watkiss, a KTVK investigative reporter covering the trial, Loni Coombs, a former Los Angeles prosecutor, and Flora Jessop who is a former member of the FLDS church. Welcome back, all of you.
Michael, can you give us the latest on what`s going on with the trial?
MICHAEL WATKISS, KTVK INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes. They`re still in the jury selection process. They had 280 yesterday. They whittled that down to about 200 last night. When I left the court a few moments ago, they had it down to about 80 plus potential jurors. This has been a media saturated story here in West Texas.
They`ve got to find 12 men and women who are basically impartial, and it`s a difficult task, but I think they`re up to it. They`re hoping to have opening arguments either later this week or first part of next week.
PINSKY: Michael, are they finding people that have strong opinions on either side or most people sort of already condemning this guy?
WATKISS: Well, I think there are people with very strong opinions on this, and I think here in the bible belt, they have been sort of reacting negatively to when Flora, and we came down with her when she first blew the whistle and said these guys are building the big temple. From the very beginning -- you know -- Flora has a book that`s called "The Church of Lies," and these guys do lie.
When they first bought that big compound out there, they told the locals it was going to be a corporate hunting retreat. They`re always deceptive. It`s part of the culture. It`s a virtue to lie to the outside world to protect in essence these spiritual marriages. That`s the core of this religion, these underage marriages. They`ll do anything to lie. It`s a virtue to lie to the outside world to cover your tracks.
People have very strong reactions and rightfully so, but they`re going to have to find 12 men and women who can sit and listen to the evidence and determine whether Mr. Jeffs sexually assaulted two young girls. I think they`ve got DNA evidence. It`s a pretty strong case.
PINSKY: Today was day two of jury selection. There are key elements that the jury needs to consider in this case. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREG ABBOTT, TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: The issue for the people of the jury to consider is whether or not Warren Jeffs sexually assaulted a minor. We already have five convictions and two other people who pled guilty for similar crimes and similar activity out at the YFZ ranch. We believe that we will be able to prove that Warren Jeffs is just another one who assaulted a minor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, Loni, the Texas attorney general sounds pretty confident. My understanding, it is emotion coming to suppress all the evidence they have that release the key aspect of this case.
LONI COOMBS, FMR. LA COUNTY PROSECUTOR: That`s right. It is the basis of this case, and we should all stand up and applaud that raid that happened in Texas, because they took out of that compound 1.7 billion papers, documents, personal diaries, dictations by Warren Jeffs talking about these marriages and these children being married off to other people and his own marriages. We have DNA testing.
PINSKY: Is there a chance that`s going to be suppressed? That would be awful.
COOMBS: Well, OK, the defense --
PINSKY: What`s wrong with the legal system is my next question? How does this go on? Now, I understand.
COOMBS: I`ll tell you, the defense is saying that all should be suppressed because the reason they went in from the very beginning was a telephone call that said, I`m a 16-year-old being abused here on the compound. That was found to be a hoax. But let me tell you, in the prior cases that the attorney general talked about where there`s already been five convictions, they also brought this motion to suppress everything, denied and everything came in.
PINSKY: All right. I feel a bit of relief here. We`re going to watch. Take a look at this video here. This is where some of these young women actually lived. Flora, I`m going to ask you. How is it possible -- there we go -- that something like this is still happening today even though people like you are out there as, I guess, we`ve been saying blowing the whistle. No one seems to want to hear it or do anything about it, do they?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: No, they really don`t. And you know, I had somebody explain to me why they felt it was so difficult. It was a law enforcement officer. And he said, Flora, when we walk up into this called organization, this polygamy organization and we pick to lid up off of it (ph) and we look into this barrel, there are so many crimes and so many abuses. It`s like a writhing barrel full of snakes.
Where do you start? Which one do you reach in and grab? And I`m like just pick one. Grab one. But he says there`s so much going on that you just kind of set the lid back on to it and turn around and scratch your head going, where do I start. And for those of us that are victims of these abuses and crimes, we`re standing here going, please just grab one of them and start there.
But law enforcement and these agencies are feeling maybe so overwhelmed with the magnitude of abuses and crimes occurring within these cults that they`re just walking away. They`re throwing their hands there and walking away. And so, it continues to grow.
PINSKY: You know what else, Flora? I`m going to say it gets complicated. You know, I`m a fan of the TV show "Big Love" which chronicles what people would be like in this kind of situation.
JESSOP: I am, too.
PINSKY: But the fact is, some of these people start identifying with their victimizers. And so, they want to rescue the people that we`re going after in the court. We have just 20 seconds left. Loni, are there things we can do to really get the facts out there, where people step in it the last minute, and prevent these cases from playing all the way out?
COOMBS: Well, I think what you`re doing right now is great. And I think the more -- and I understand Michael and Flora are frustrated because they`ve been doing this for years, but now, we have the words from Warren Jeffs` own mouth, and I think that`s going to be probably the most persuasive, not only for society for his own followers to say, hey, wait a minute. This shroud of secrecy, there is stuff going on here that`s not right, and maybe, we should take a second look at. Maybe, he isn`t the right prophet.
PINSKY: Maybe not. Loni, thank you very much. And Michael and Flora, again, I identify with your frustration, but we`re going to keep talking about this case, and hopefully, will make a difference.
We will, in fact, also not forget Casey Anthony, will we? Well, not, at least, forget her lies soon. That was really stunning, but she is not the world`s only infamous liar. When we come back, we`re going to take a look at powerful men who`s marriages and careers were rocked by lies and infidelity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH EDWARDS, AUTHOR: When he found out that, in fact, this was his child, he wanted to be a father. If that were the case, when we were together, I would be the child`s stepmother. And so, it was important. We went down to Charlotte and a third-party picked up Quinn and brought her to where we were. And, I let John spend some time alone with her. It was before Christmas. We brought Christmas presents and dresses and little things.
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Was it strange for you? Awkward?
EDWARDS: No, it was not awkward in the least.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER DAUGHTER: Charlotte sounded like a potential place to look. You can look at Charlotte. I know Zani had roots in North Carolina.
(CROSSTALK)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Silver car, correct, or color car?
CASEY ANTHONY: Silver Ford Focus. 2008. Four door. The windows aren`t tinted. It`s very basic. There`s a pink floral car seat on the right passenger side in the back seat. That`s the car seat that she`s had for Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, that was Casey Anthony. You may not know who she is. You may not have heard much about her case, but, there she is providing a detailed description of the famous Zani the nanny, her car, in fact. And as we later learned, Zani the nanny never even existed. And here she was giving detailed lies. Now, Casey was not, let`s say, the world`s greatest mom. I think you`ll agree with me, but she might be one of the world`s greatest liars. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She spins tales (INAUDIBLE) but all these crazy stories about all this stuff. She also made up a story about her parents, her dad cheating on her mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to be the point where you stop all the lies and you stop all the fibs and you tell us exactly what`s going on.
CINDY ANTHONY: We need to have something to go on.
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and you know that everything you told me is a lie. Correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All information that provided by Ms. Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter, I would point out that the truth and Miss Anthony are strangers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that is untrue or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Well, Casey Anthony actually inspired us here at DR. DREW. That`s right. She inspired us, inspired us with thoughts of notorious liars. So, throughout the week, we`re going to focus on other infamous liars beginning tonight with powerful men and high profile married, powerful men who lied and deceived their way through countless indiscretions. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
Indeed, I did have a relationship with Ms. Lewinsky that was not appropriate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You denied having a relationship with Rielle Hunter. Did you give me a truthful answer? Were you telling the truth then?
JOHN EDWARDS, FORMER SENATOR OF NORTH CAROLINA: Yes. Because I did not want the public to know what I`ve done.
MARK SANFORD, FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA: I`ve been unfaithful to my wife.
TIGER WOODS, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: I was unfaithful. I had affairs.
ANTHONY WEINER, FORMER CONGRESSMAN OF NEW YORK: So, today, I`m announcing my resignation from Congress.
END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Well, joining me is Jay and Julie Kent-Ferraro. They are a married couple who divorced and then remarried because of Jay`s confession of an affair. They chronicled a story in a book called "Surprise By Love." Also with me is clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland.
All right. Julie, we`ll start with you. You recognize that there are a lot of lies and deception in these high-profile cheaters that you`ve seen. Did you see these same sorts of behaviors in your husband?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO, HER HUSBAND, JAY, HAD AN AFFAIR: Absolutely. It feels very familiar when you watch (INAUDIBLE) on television. And, you know, you recognize that these people are trying to protect their families and their loved ones with their lies, and it really makes it worse. It hurts more. Sometimes, I think the lie is worse than the actual betrayal would have been.
PINSKY: Tell me about the betrayal. I know betrayal can make people -- actually, make them crazy. I mean, you go into disbelief and then you go into shock, and then often, people will tail after them and hire investigators or go themselves out in their nightgowns, you know, when the husband doesn`t come home at night. Was it that kind of thing for you?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: For me, it was. We started out with a great courtship and a wonderful family. We had three small children. And then, as we got busy, we became kind of like managing partners in our own home. We called it life inc. You know, I mean, he did his work and I did the kids.
And then, suddenly, things starting feeling really strange in my own house, and I became very, very suspicious. And I noticed strange e-mails in the history on his laptop or numbers that I wouldn`t normally recognize reoccurring in the cell phone bill.
PINSKY: Did that cause panic?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: Absolutely. A lot of nights crying in my bed.
PINSKY: Did you bring it up with him?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: I did. I would talk to him about it, and you know, like most people that are having an affair, they`re not forthcoming at the beginning. And so, no, I didn`t get a lot of answers initially, and I started to think I was crazy. He was good at covering up his lies to begin with. And so, I ended up hiring a P.I. and had a team of people. I had to have like five P.I.s at one time meet him at an airport where he didn`t know it.
You know, and somebody stationed at baggage claim and somebody stationed at the rental care place and someone following him on the highway. And I got all of these updates throughout the evening that this was happening. Actually, it was on my birthday, wasn`t it? It was on my 33rd birthday. And I got phone calls and updates as things were happening.
And then, once they left, I was able to call him and let him know that his gig was up and that I was fully aware of what had been going on. The P.I.s were so great I even knew that he`d eaten blueberry pancakes at an all-night pancake house after their evening in a bar.
PINSKY: Wow.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: Yes.
PINSKY: Michelle, she tells the story with relatively unemotional, but boy, that`s got to be a terribly painful experience.
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It`s devastating. It`s absolutely devastating. And I think what happens in these situations is that, you know, the manipulation goes on and on because they`ve been caught. And, when someone is cheating, they`re trying to keep this lie going. They compartmentalize their lives. And so, it`s trying to sort of run or put the truth as far away, and I think what`s so important is that it is crazy making, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: For the betrayed person.
GOLLAND: Of course. Why I say crazy making is because they`re told that they`re crazy.
PINSKY: Yes.
GOLLAND: Like there is nothing wrong. But as we know, when we start to feel our intuition or we literally see the e-mails or the texts, but we get sort of sucked in to the manipulation, and partly because, let`s face it, who wants to believe that our husband or wife of ten years, two kids, what that means.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: To me, that period of suspicion really drag on for four months before I actually pulled the trigger on hiring someone, because, as you ask questions, you might get enough that makes you think --
PINSKY: You put it away. You don`t want to know.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: All right. So, jay, you get that phone call. You`ve got some explaining to do. What was that like?
JAY KENT-FERRARO, CHEATED ON HIS WIFE, JULIE: Oh, it was shocking, shaming, and calming all at the same time, because I knew the gig was up.
PINSKY: And then, you were actually a mental health professional, counseling couples while you were carrying on the affair.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: A true picture of the fraud that I was. Full of arrogance and pride and a sense of entitlement.
PINSKY: Is that -- we open this conversation by asking how do these guys do this? Why are they keep doing it? Are those positions of power part of that sense of entitlement?
JAY KENT-FERRARO: I think the entitlement and the arrogance are the drivers for that.
PINSKY: Yes.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: And I think that deception is purposeful. It allows you to have your cake and eat it, too. You have your family and you have your fantasy. And it also gives you a sense of, hey, you know what, I`m trying not to hurt her. So, therefore, I can justify lying about it. Not realizing that that`s the most painful part of betrayal.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. It is. It`s the lying. It`s the not coming clean. And that often when I`m dealing with couples with infidelity is that it`s like, but you lied straight to my face even when I knew. It`s like you could look at me and tell me that. So, that`s the betrayal of how do I get back?
PINSKY: I was saying Casey Anthony may have done us a favor. She taught us that people really lie and can be really good at lying. I mean, we`ve all seen great evidence to that. So --
GOLLAND: Right. She learned well.
PINSKY: Trust your instinct is part of the take-home message here, is it not?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: It is absolutely. I think that women have a sense and men have a sense when they are in a relationship that`s committed. They know when things go off track and it`s not right.
PINSKY: And ultimately, really, we`re going to talk about this after the break, I mean, continue this conversation, but ultimately, it`s not just about the arrogance and the, you know, sense of self-importance and the ability to just pull this all off. There`s a deep emptiness and inability to actually have real close relationships behind all that.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Yes. And you as a mental health professional, did you know that at the time? Or did that come as a result of this healing?
JAY KENT-FERRARO: I did not know. It came from waking up that the real problem is not so much deception, it`s the inability to know how to really love someone.
PINSKY: Really interesting.
All right. Up next, we`re going to have more on cheating husbands and lies. And tomorrow, liars and addicts. That`s one in the same thing. Lying addicts. That`s the same. They`re always the same. We`re going to talk to recovering addicts like Kat Von D about the lies and deception that envelop their lives and the lives of those around them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: How is the relationship with Jesse? Is it a good one?
KAT VON D, TELEVISION PERSONALITY: Yes. It`s great.
PINSKY: Is it happy?
KAT VON D: oh, yes, yes. I mean -- every couple has their challenges. And I think, you know, when we first started dating, it wasn`t something planned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEINER: I believe that everyone deserves an apology here. And I certain -- I`ll be -- here`s what --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is your wife right now?
WEINER: I apologize to (INAUDIBLE). I apologize to the many other members of the media that I misled. I apologize first and foremost to my wife and to my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And tonight, we are talking about married men whose extramarital affairs were covered up by lies and deception. Earlier even today, Oregon congressman, David Wu, resigned after accusations surfaced of unwanted sexual advances -- listen to this -- toward a fuindraiser`s 18- year-old daughter. I`d be beside myself angry.
All right. I`m back with Jay and Julie Kent-Ferraro. They had a married rock by Jay`s infidelity. Also with us still is clinical psychologist, Michelle Golland.
All right. Julie, I want to go to you first. We got a couple of minutes here to talk about this, but can you speak, maybe even directly to the camera, to other women out there that maybe suspicious or having that horrible feeling that you had to live with for so many months. What do you tell them?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: Absolutely. They have to find the truth. They have to find out what`s going on. They will feel crazy. So, really, if you need to hire a private investigator or if you need to do some digging, it`s OK, because you have a right to know what`s going on in your own home.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this for women also. Why attracted the guys to cheat? What do you think that is about women that they kind of go for guys that are prone to this?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: You know, I`m not sure. I did not think that`s what I was attracted to.
PINSKY: But he was a cheater.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: Right. Bur, you know, he didn`t do that to me -- we were married ten years before this happened.
PINSKY: Was your dad available for you? Or is he somebody that kind of left the family or cheating on your mom --
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: My parents are still married.
PINSKY: Did he do anything like that?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: My parents are still married. Now, I did not have that when I was -- no, I did not.
GOLLAND: I actually think there`s something else going on here. It`s something that you talked about which was after ten years of marriage, it became what did you call it home inc.?
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: We called it life inc.
PINSKY: But, Michelle, but I`ll tell you, yes, there`s lack of intimacy there, but Jay is saying very honestly (ph) that he did not that capacity for real intimacy, and he learned it through this experience.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: That`s right.
GOLLAND: Right. But that could have -- you didn`t have to do that damage to learn that.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: No.
GOLLAND: And that you can actually, as a couple, be able to figure out -- our generation, we haven`t been taught, Dr. Drew how to actually do what it is that we want, which is authentic, loving monogamous marriages.
PINSKY: But Michelle, we don`t even know that that`s what we want. I would say. I`m actually -- I`m not sure we`re going to have book on that very topic. You would agree with me, wouldn`t you, that the process of intimacy was something you really not really understood until this.
JAY KENT-FERRARO: Absolutely not understood. I thought I knew it. I knew it conceptually, but the actual experience of being able to be vulnerable with someone was not something that I knew how to do well.
PINSKY: I have less than a minute here, but it is really Julie stepping up that got you guys through this, is it not?
JAY KENT-FERRARO: Absolutely. Julie was used to a lot of my behavior. She defined her actions towards me. I was absolutely humbled by that. And I grew up. I chose to evolve, which is the necessary prerequisite for intimacy.
PINSKY: If you can in 20 seconds, give me that story about your daughter driving her home after third grade or kindergarten? Real quick.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: You know, we were talking about her coming home from school and driving her home, and she was very upset about her best friend stealing her crayons. And as I`m talking to her and talking to her about forgiveness and love and not having revenge on her friend, not stealing the paper tomorrow, I realized at that moment that I had to model that in my divorce with Jay. And so, that`s really, I think one of the ways we got through it.
PINSKY: The divorce (ph) ended up back in a remarriage.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: It did.
PINSKY: Well, guys, thank you for sharing your story. Really appreciate it.
JULIE KENT-FERRARO: Thank you.
PINSKY: Michelle, as always, thank you for joining me.
Now, this Thursday, be sure, you guys need to come and tune in for this. It`s a special one-on-one interview with octomom, Nadya Suleman. Very, very interesting. You do not want to miss it, and thanks, of course, for watching tonight. Good night.
END
