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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Ordered to Orlando to Serve Probation
Aired August 02, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DIANE DIMOND, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Just when she thought the jury had set her free after that stunning acquittal of murdering her 2-year-old daughter, Caylee, a Florida judge now orders Casey Anthony back to Orlando. A while back, Casey Anthony pleaded guilty to check fraud charges, and her lawyers thought she had completed her probation while in prison. They have said that Casey is going into mental health rehab now, but a judge says not so fast, signing off on an amended court order for one year of supervised probation to be served right there in Orlando.
With the clock now ticking, Casey Anthony is supposed to present herself to the probation department within hours, and her attorneys are scrambling to fight this new order. And as public outrage over her release still simmers, there`s still chatter about a Casey Anthony tell-all book. Would you buy it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ordered back to Orlando to serve one year of supervised probation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grand theft charges, fraud and forgery charges.
CASEY ANTHONY: You`re not telling me anything that I don`t already know!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stole checks and money from a friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s going to be a withhold, followed by a year of supervised probation once released.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Released a free woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All hell breaks loose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheney Mason says there was no notice, no motion, no hearing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is now getting counseling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey`s not going to change.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is she (ph) different?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was in a 4-by-9 cell for three years, 23 hours a day.
CASEY ANTHONY: I only have been in jail since, oh, about 8:30 tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would screw with anybody`s head.
CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me but myself!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Good evening, everyone. And welcome. I`m Diane Dimond, filling in tonight for Nancy Grace. We are taking your calls live tonight, so get ready with your questions for our panel.
Well, Casey Anthony has been in hiding since her acquittal on murder and manslaughter charges. But her check fraud case is apparently bringing her back to the town she fled after the verdict. At least, we think she left town. No one is really sure exactly where Casey Anthony is at this point.
For the very latest, let`s go now to Michael Christian. He`s senior field producer with "In Session." Michael, great to have you on the program because I know you have your finger on the latest developments here. Now, Cheney Mason filed this motion to set aside this probation order bringing her back to Orlando. Tell us about this piece of paper.
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": Well, basically, yesterday, Diane, Judge Stan Strickland, who was the original judge in this case...
DIMOND: Right.
CHRISTIAN: ... issued an order saying that Casey should serve her probation after she`d been released, and since it hadn`t happened before, it should happen now. Now, obviously, the defense was not prepared for that. They were not pleased. They said no. The Department of Corrections has said she served her probation while she was in jail awaiting her murder trial and Judge Strickland has no right to do this.
DIMOND: Right.
CHRISTIAN: So they have filed an emergency motion at the end of the day today, on Tuesday. It says many things. It says, for example, this is a case of double jeopardy, that you can`t punish a person twice for the same act, and she`s already served probation, so there`s no way that the judge can order her to do it now.
It also says it would be unsafe to bring Casey Anthony back to Orlando, that she wouldn`t necessarily be safe here, and not only would it be a danger to her, it would be an expense to the taxpayers of Orange County, who would have to provide protection for her.
So for a myriad of reasons, the defense says, No, no, this has to be set aside. This cannot happen. It will be up to a court to decide.
DIMOND: Now, Michael, I am reading on the very last page of this order, or this motion that they just filed a short while ago -- it says, "The defendant has received several threats upon her safety and her life, the most egregious of which is attached. See exhibit F." What is exhibit F?
CHRISTIAN: You know, exhibit F is a photograph of Casey that`s been Photoshopped or doctored. Apparently, it was either e-mailed or sent somehow to the defense or to Casey Anthony. And it basically shows Casey Anthony with a hole in her forehead. One can presume it`s supposed to be a bullet hole.
DIMOND: Ow!
CHRISTIAN: And it says at the bottom something to the -- I don`t have the exact words in front of me, but it`s something to the effect that, With such a large forehead, you`re going to be an easy target.
DIMOND: Yes.
CHRISTIAN: So clearly, it`s a death threat against Casey Anthony.
DIMOND: Well, it says -- because I have a copy of it right here. It says, "With a forehead that big, the head shot will be easier." Oh, come on, you guys, you know?
Let`s bring in Robyn Walensky. She is a local reporter there with newsradio WDBO. I got to get that in. Hey, Robyn, nice to see you. Cheney Mason reportedly told a TV network today that he doesn`t think that Casey Anthony`s obligated to report at all, and he called Judge Strickland`s order "stupid."
Now, you know, you cover that beat there. We all remember the one- handed -- one-finger salute that Cheney Mason gave after the verdict. Now he calls the judge stupid. What`s going -- what kind of reputation does he have there?
ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: You know, these two have -- there`s no love lost between Cheney Mason and Strickland. He tried to get him off of the case and was successful, basically stating that Strickland had some interaction with a blogger. And so they were able to get him off this case originally. So no love lost between the two of them.
But the real sense here is, Diane, that they`re not going to be able to get Casey Anthony to show up. Everybody`s saying that it would be Thursday morning at around 8:00 o`clock in the morning, but we don`t think that it`s going to happen then. Most people believe -- the common belief is that Cheney Mason is going to prevail in this case and that Casey Anthony is not going to surface.
DIMOND: Well, but can that be? Let`s bring in Ellie Jostad. She, of course, is a producer here at the NANCY GRACE program. So Ellie, there`s no action on this motion that was filed late today, and the probation department is expecting her on Thursday. And what happens if she doesn`t show up?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the Department of Corrections has said that if she doesn`t show up on Thursday, 72 hours after the judge signed that order and put that into motion, that she could have a warrant for her arrest issued. Now, they got this emergency motion. They want a hearing. So tomorrow, you know, that`s when it`s all going to go down. We`ll see what happens then. But there could be an arrest warrant.
DIMOND: And let`s bring in -- back in Michael Christian. Michael, we know that Strickland signed this order, Casey Anthony has to come back to Orlando, and then he went on vacation. So...
CHRISTIAN: Yes (INAUDIBLE)
DIMOND: Is it sitting on his desk, or is there another judge going to rule?
CHRISTIAN: I would think since it`s an emergency motion, another judge will take a look at it, possibly Judge Belvin Perry. We don`t know that.
But you know, it`s interesting, Diane, because Casey Anthony, no matter what you think about her, is kind of between a rock and a hard place here, you know?
DIMOND: Aw!
CHRISTIAN: She may have a wonderful appellate issue, but if she doesn`t show up on Thursday, she could be found in violation of probation, even if probation is thrown out later. And if you are in violation of probation, you are often remanded back to the county jail. So it`s kind of she`s dammed if she does and dammed if she doesn`t. I`m not sure what`s going to happen.
DIMOND: Yes. Let`s remind everybody, for those who don`t remember, Judge Stan Strickland was the original judge in the murder case, and then he was forced to disqualify himself, as Robyn said.
In fact, he came on this program after the verdict, when he knew he was still assigned to the check fraud case, and he gave an opinion about the verdict. And that really surprised me. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, FLORIDA CIRCUIT COURT: It`s not the first verdict that I`ve been surprised at. You understand. When you`ve been in this business a while, you learn to live with surprises. I`ve just never seen one like this, and the magnitude of it sort of surprises me. I -- I guess I`m just shocked. We opened a big can of justice, didn`t we?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: They opened a big can of whoop (ph) something I don`t know. Anyway, Ellie Jostad, does team Casey have a point if they say that this is a biased judge? Here he is coming on the NANCY GRACE program. It`s even mentioned in this motion that Cheney Mason put out late this afternoon that he came on this program and another television network...
JOSTAD: Right.
DIMOND: ... and talked about the verdict.
JOSTAD: Right. Right. And you know, you could say that it may have been somewhat improper for him to talk about a case that he once presided over. And the defense has always claimed that Judge Strickland was biased against them. And they were finally able to get him over this whole issue that he talked to a blogger. They were -- you know, at least had the impression of impropriety. They were able to get him to step down voluntarily from the case. And they say they`re going to ask for him to step down again.
DIMOND: Right. Right. And that`s hinted at in this motion filed today.
JOSTAD: Right.
DIMOND: I want to bring in Wendy Feldman. She`s founder of a group called Custodial Coaching. I have e-mailed with Wendy a lot, but I haven`t met her. So nice to meet you, Wendy.
WENDY FELDMAN, FOUNDER, CUSTODIAL COACHING: Hi, Diane.
DIMOND: You`ve come through the system yourself, having a conviction for fraud and done some time, and now you help other people who are coming out of prison. And so you know the system. And that`s why I`m asking you, have you ever heard of anyone serving their probation time while they`re inside?
FELDMAN: No. In fact, probation means a testing of your behavior. Probation is not for people who are in jail. In jail, you have rules. So the reason we have probation is because the accountability helps people re- enter society. So I`ve never heard of it. It doesn`t really make sense. It`s a contradiction, actually.
DIMOND: And Wendy, you help inmates who have been incarcerated adapt to the outside world again. And isn`t that what probation is all about? Because in reading this motion filed late today, it seems that they`re hinting that, Well, you know, if she`s in rehab or something, she could maybe do probation there. Again, that`s not what probation is for.
FELDMAN: Well, you could do rehab while you`re doing probation. But in this case, she`s technically in violation of probation by not reporting after she was let out of jail. So the whole thing doesn`t make sense. But you can go to treatment when you`re on probation. People do it every day.
DIMOND: If you suddenly got a call and it was Casey Anthony on the other line and she said, I need some help getting reaccustomed to the outside world, what would your first suggestion be to her?
FELDMAN: My first suggestion to her would be to, you know, do a program of, like, restorative justice and look at your actual behavior. But to do that, she`d have to admit she did something, whatever she wants to admit to, that she did something wrong. And I would tell her to do something serious to address her criminal thinking error, whatever error that was, the check fraud, with her daughter, whatever it was, and to do something realistic like that.
DIMOND: Yes, well, I`m not going to be holding my breath on that one, Wendy.
You know, when we come back, I want to explore further with Wendy and some mental health experts that we have on deck about Casey Anthony. You know, no matter what you think about her, she`s a human being. She has been locked up 23 hours a day for almost three years, and now suddenly, she is back out, breathing free air. How is she going to adapt? Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She may be getting one-on-one therapy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nobody is saying anything bad about you. Your family is with you 100 percent.
CASEY ANTHONY: No, they`re not!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She just wants to start to rebuild her life.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I want her to somehow get her life back together.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m being watched at all times.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s been so lucky. Caylee is so lucky to have both of you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge in the check fraud case wants her in Orlando in a matter of a couple of days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We usually just rule and roll.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To serve probation. But what happens next.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirteen counts are legally proper here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All that means -- We`re going to fight this thing, and we`re going to fight it hard. And the reason why is I think one of their best claims is double jeopardy.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Well, maybe some of her actions. Hi. Welcome back, everybody. I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight.
We don`t know where Casey Anthony is. We do know that the probation department in Orlando, Florida, is now, because of a judge`s order, expecting Casey Anthony to report there on Thursday. Will she go? Is she in rehab somewhere? Is she in a different country? We have no idea. But we do know what she`s been through the last three years. And wherever your sympathies live, even if they`re not with her, you have to realize she`s been locked up for a long time, and coming back to society is going to be tough.
Ellyn Gamberg is a psychotherapist. She is joining us now. Ellyn, talk to me about this. Pretend it`s not Casey Anthony, the woman who`s so vilified across the country, but re-entering society has got to be really hard after that, and losing your child and your family, by the way.
ELLYN GAMBERG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It is. We`re by nature social beings, and to be locked up and not being able to have the interaction, the social contact, and more importantly, the external stimuli that makes the brain function properly, she really is going to have a difficult time in adjusting to normal thinking and normal behavior. And that`s the biggest challenge.
DIMOND: You think she definitely does need some mental health rehab.
GAMBERG: Oh, absolutely. Intense because I think there`s a lot of disordered thinking and behavior going on, and that needs to be addressed foremost.
DIMOND: Terence Lenamon is a defense attorney who worked with Casey Anthony in the early part of this case, on death penalty issues. Mr. Lenamon, thanks for being with us. You`ve sat and talked with this young woman. Is there a mental problem there?
TERENCE LENAMON, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: I think from the very beginning, it was well recognized both in the press and within the defense team that she had some mental issues. Some of them were significant. Some of them had to be developed. Some were latent when I first got involved and were developed further on in the investigation, after I left the case. But clearly -- Jose said it in his opening statement. She clearly has issues that go deep.
DIMOND: Yes. And you know, when your own defense attorney in opening statements -- I was sitting in that courtroom, sort of aghast -- says, My client is a known liar, she has problems telling the truth, she has imaginary friends -- I wonder how in the world she will take her life forward and even do something as simple as getting a job.
Let`s go out to the phones because we have many of you holding now. Linda is in Louisiana. Linda, what`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think you`ve answered my question, but I have a comment. You know, everybody`s talking about protecting her. Who protected little Caylee when she was in the hands of that monster? You know, who protected her?
DIMOND: Well, that`s -- that`s, of course, the best question. And there is no answer to that, Linda. But I thank you for your call.
Let`s go out to Florida and Geanette, I think it is. Hello, Geanette?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. How are you?
DIMOND: Hello. How are you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m very well, thank you.
DIMOND: What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment and a question.
DIMOND: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My comment is, I hate to disagree with you, but Casey was not locked up for a long time, three years. Caylee will be dead forever. But now my question is, many, many people are outraged at the verdict. Do you think that Casey will show up? And if so, will she be in a protective custody with maybe a bulletproof vest?
DIMOND: That`s a good question. Robyn Walensky, you`ve been covering this from the get-go. What are the preps there in Florida?
WALENSKY: You know, I have to tell you, Diane, that if you remember the day when the verdict came out and this went down and all those people were outside protesting -- think about some of the signs. One of the signs said something to the effect that the jurors, there`s -- you know, are 12 murderers. Somewhere there`s a village that`s missing 12 idiots.
DIMOND: Right.
WALENSKY: There is a lot of hatred here toward the jury and toward Casey Anthony. Diane, it would be very dangerous for her to come back to Orlando at this time.
DIMOND: And imagine, every single time she visits her probation officer, the crowd that might go. Oh, my goodness sakes! We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could you try to get rich off of a murdered little girl?
CASEY ANTHONY: I never once wanted to be on TV.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baez says he is not negotiating paid interviews.
BAEZ: The nonsense stops right now!
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to hear any of this media (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won, they lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strickland says he meant for Casey to serve a year of probation in Orange County.
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After her release from jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge Strickland came back and said -- well, the irony is rich on that one. But now he`s coming back into the picture.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jose Baez wants Judge Stan Strickland recused.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know where she is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yuri has it in his mind that I`ve done something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything else that you want to say directly to me at all?
CASEY ANTHONY: I hated baloney!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Diane Dimond, sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight. We`re talking about Casey Anthony`s maybe return to Orlando to face probation. Mike Dow is a psychotherapist and an addiction specialist. He joins us now. Doctor, an addiction specialist -- do you think Casey Anthony has an addiction?
MIKE DOW, ADDICTION EXPERT: Well, Diane, nothing that we`ve seen from the press, from the interviews, has really, you know, revealed that. However, all of the things that we`ve seen from her really do -- are consistent with somebody who is an addict. So that it is a possible diagnosis of addiction. And you know, rehab maybe something that could be very good for her.
DIMOND: Yes. I sat in in that courtroom and jury selection and watched her very closely. I wrote a lot of pieces about that for The DailyBeast. And you know, she was fascinating to watch in that I saw so many different personalities -- the little child who sort of kept her sleeves up over her arms, and then the feisty woman who would actually reach over and slap Jose Baez, playful at times. What kind of personality do you see when you see her?
DOW: Well, I think Casey has a personality disorder, probably borderline personality disorder, from what I`ve seen. And that does require long-term treatment that is either intensive outpatient or an impatient-based treatment, either hospital-based or rehab, which is what we usually see in the news, those 90-day programs that we hear about all the time.
DIMOND: Yes. Let`s bring Terence Lenamon back in because Mr. Lenamon, I heard a lot of testimony from a lot of the men in her life. And if I would have to guess on any sort of addictive-type behavior, I would say sexual addiction. You think perhaps she might be bipolar?
LENAMON: Yes. You know, I had a theory -- again, I was involved in the case for a very short period of time. But based on what I saw outwardly happening during the period of time that came into question, the 30-day period when the child was missing, I think there was a lot of symptoms that support bipolar illness.
I mean, she wasn`t sleeping a lot. There was a lot of records, phone records indicating very little sleep. Her sexual-charged behavior is indicative of someone with a manic episode of bipolar disorder. So I think there`s a lot of things that that could be one explanation. But again, I am not a doctor and I didn`t evaluate her.
DIMOND: Right. I would like to talk about this in the program ahead. Did you see strange dynamics in the family, Cindy, George, Lee and Casey?
LENAMON: I think when I was involved, the dynamics obviously were not as clear as they were portrayed with Jose during the trial. So I had very limited involvement, so I can`t say I saw the dynamics that were seen by Jose and his group of investigators and doctors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We are told she is going to go into a rehab facility to seek professional treatment.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: You know I am an emotional wreck. I`ve been very good about staying calm. I`ve been angry. I`m positive, very positive. Oh, god.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Don`t get upset. I`m just saying.
CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m just -- I`m just telling you. Oh. Mom, gees. I`m sorry, I was mad when all of that happened. Let me speak for a second. I have nothing more that I can say, I`m keeping my mouth shut. I`m glad that I got a chance to talk to you.
I don`t want say anything to anyone. Give me three seconds to say something. What do I have to say? My head is going to explode. I`ve been staying as positive as I can. But I am upset now. Smile a little bit. Agitated and frustrated. Stay as calm as I can. Can someone let me -- come on.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is she going to do any interviews? Rehab for Casey?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not opening up to someone that I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: As for Casey`s future --
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ll be fine.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIANE DIMOND, HLN GUEST HOST: The many moods of Casey Anthony.
Hello, everyone. I`m Diane Dimond sitting in tonight for Nancy Grace. And we`re taking your calls live about whether or not Casey Anthony will be forced to go back to Orlando.
Let`s go to Cindy, she`s calling in from Illinois. Hi, Cindy.
CAROL, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hello?
DIMOND: Hi, Cindy.
CAROL: I`m Carol.
DIMOND: Oh, I`m sorry, Carol. Hi, Carol.
CAROL: That`s OK. You know, I have a question for you. And thank you, by the way, for having -- taking my call.
DIMOND: Sure.
CAROL: I assumed that probation was to be served upon release, only for the fact that isn`t your probation`s job to monitor you and supervise to see how you`re doing once you`re back out?
DIMOND: Exactly, Carol. That is such a good point to make. Here we are talking about Casey Anthony, perhaps doing probation while she was in prison. Did she already fulfill her time? Perhaps doing it while she`s in rehab.
Let`s bring back in Wendy Feldman. Wendy counsels inmates who are released and helps them go back into society.
Wendy, usually what are the steps that you have to do in probation? First, you can`t associate with other criminals. You can`t -- you need to get a job, right? What are other things?
WENDY FELDMAN, FOUNDER, CUSTODIAL COACHING: Right, right. I mean, it depends on -- if she`s on standard supervision. We don`t even know. The typical person has to go through a reporting phase. They might have drug and alcohol testing. You do have to get a job. Especially if you owe money. She owes money to the IRS.
DIMOND: Right.
FELDMAN: If not other people.
DIMOND: Right.
FELDMAN: So she has all kinds of hoops, steps and it`s the accountability. That`s why there is probation. So doing probation in jail doesn`t make sense. And yet it`s where we`re at. Who knows what happened here.
DIMOND: Yes. I am holding in my hand here a letter that Casey Anthony got back in January of this year and it`s from the Florida Department of Corrections, and it says, you`re hereby notified you completed your term of supervision on such a date and have a very successful future.
I think it`s time to bring in the lawyers on this one. Randy Kessler and Nicole Deborde, both defense attorneys.
Weigh in here. Nicole, let`s start with you. Does this paper trump what the judge has done, Strickland? He says she has to come back and fulfill probation. But didn`t she already? Is this double jeopardy?
NICOLE DEBORDE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it very well could be trumped by the piece of paper that you hold there in your hand because once she has completed the sentence which has been given forward by the judge, there is not a whole lot that he can do to go back and amend that order at that point. So he may be just a little too late.
DIMOND: What do you think, Randy Kessler? Is the judge in this case -- there he is, he writes an order, it goes on vacation, and now there`s a motion pending. Doesn`t somebody have to deal with that?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and it`s probably another judge. I mean I`m looking at the same exhibit D you`re looking at and the truth of the matter is, they said welcome back to society, we wish you good luck.
We don`t play gotcha in America where guess what, you beat them murder raps, now we`re going to try to find some other way to come after you. She`s paid her debt for the crime she was convicted of. She served her probation, she was checked up on in jail, and the point of probation is for a time period after the crime, we want to make sure that they don`t get into trouble again.
She didn`t get into trouble again. She was watched. She had super ultra probation, which is being incarcerated.
Yes, another judge will look at it. And I`ll tell you, these lawyers really, they laid it right out, maybe a little stronger than I would have, when they said this order status is a fraudulently filed product of a previously disqualified judge. And they made it clear.
DIMOND: I know.
KESSLER: This judge was disqualified, why is he stepping back into it?
DIMOND: Yes. Yes. There -- as I think Robyn Walensky said there is no love lost here between this defense team and the original judge on this murder trial, Strickland, calling him stupid, just -- it also goes to enflame, doesn`t it, Nicole, all the other judges on the bench there? They hear this conversation.
DEBORDE: Sure. That`s probably not the best way to handle it. But the fact of the matter is that this is not a clerical error which can just be corrected while the probation is still in progress. And something needs to be clarified. Essentially what this judge has gone back after a sentence has been completed and is saying now that he wants a do-over.
And he wants an order on file showing that the person has to go through the entire thing again. And I`m not so sure that he has jurisdiction to pull that off.
DIMOND: Yes. Let`s go out to Christine, she`s calling in from Texas tonight.
Hi, Christine.
CHRISTINE, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Diane. I just -- I don`t know if you addressed my question or not, but I`m just curious, she was acquitted of murder charges, so I don`t really see how it would be double jeopardy when the probation is for checks and fraud and things of --
DIMOND: Well, but don`t get your cases mixed up here. Because Casey Anthony was involved first in the check fraud case.
CHRISTINE: Yes.
DIMOND: To which she pleaded guilty and she got probation. The question seems, to me, doesn`t it, Randy -- doesn`t it seem to be can you serve -- can you actually serve probation while you`re incarcerated?
I never heard of that. Wendy Feldman who works with convicts never heard of that. Have you ever heard of that?
KESSLER: Yes, and the Florida Department of Corrections wrote a letter saying, Casey, you served your probation while you`re in jail. I think the caller`s confusion --
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: For the check case. For the check case.
KESSLER: Right.
DIMOND: Yes.
KESSLER: I think the caller is concerned that she`s going to be tried again. We`re not saying she`s going to be tried for a crime again. We`re saying she`s going to be asked to serve probation again. You can`t be asked to do the same thing twice. That`s the punishment. She served the punishment. She`s done.
DIMOND: Elyn Gamberg, let me bring you back in here. You are our mental health expert, one of many on the panel tonight. What do you think Casey Anthony`s mental state or thought process was when she heard, oh, my gosh, I got to go back to Orlando, the town I fled?
ELYN GAMBERG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Based on just the observation of watching her throughout the trial, I think shocked. I think she thought that`s closure, she`s on to something else and I think she was truly shocked at this.
Du Yes. If she is, indeed, in rehab, would that affect her rehab treatment?
GAMBERG: No, I think that rehab is probably the best thing for her to do it while she is out and hopefully not in an in-patient facility because that rehab has to help her adjust to dealing with society again and she can only have interaction in society when she`s living within a quasi normal situation.
DIMOND: Like a normal person who has a job, and I`m back to that again, who in the world is going to hire this woman right now?
OK. I`m going to put Michael Christian on the spot. He is our senior producer out there for "In Session," he`s in Orlando tonight.
Michael, it`s the question everybody asks me. I`m sure everybody is asking you. Where do we think Casey Anthony is right now?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": You know, I would love to know. And if I knew, I`d tell you. You know I would tell you, Diane.
DIMOND: I know you would.. You`d text me right away.
CHRISTIAN: I would. I`m like that. We have that bond. I`d tell you.
DIMOND: We do.
CHRISTIAN: We have heard I believe from Cheney Mason that she`s out of the state of Florida. And that is all we know. All these other things that -- these rumors that were floating around when she left, that she`d gone to Arizona, that she`d gone to Los Angeles, none of those things seem to have panned out or if they did, she successfully has hidden herself.
You know in a way, it`s a credit to the defense team they actually were able to get her somewhere, no one`s figured it out. But according to Cheney Mason, she`s outside the state of Florida and that`s really all we know.
DIMOND: All right. Let me bring in your counterpart there in Orlando, Robyn Walensky, a local radio reporter.
Come on, Robyn, you got your finger on the pulse there. What are you hearing?
ROBYN WALENSKY, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Diane, I have to be honest with you. I have been getting tips almost every day at the radio station. My personal e-mail, my Facebook account, the radio station, actual snail mail letters with all sorts of tips.
I actually need an entire staff to go and check out the tips. Whether they`re bogus or not, I have no idea. But the number one tip that I keep getting is that she might be staying on the property with Miss Simms, her attorney, on some very large estate. They have about 55 acres of land, about an hour away from here, and that she owns with her husband.
That`s the tip that keeps coming through. But my news director at the radio station as late as yesterday took a phone call with more and more tips. I don`t know if they`re bogus or not.
DIMOND: Well, that`s interesting because she was so very close with Dorothy Simms there at the defense table, every single day that I saw her in court.
All right, we will continue this discussion after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is Casey Anthony?
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: It`s nobody`s business.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just want to be with you guys.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: They`re the only ones sticking by her.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Is this 15 minutes of fame so important to you?
CASEY ANTHONY: People want to have their face on the news. Want to have their --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The clock is ticking for Casey Anthony.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m literally at a standstill.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s been ordered back to Orlando to serve one year of supervised probation in Orange County.
CASEY ANTHONY: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A judge in her check fraud case amended court paperwork.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your supervised probation, once released.
CASEY ANTHONY: I mean, really?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So the defense lawyers are going to argue, how can you serve twice for the same thing?
BAEZ: Nonsense stops right now.
CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We won, they lost.
CASEY ANTHONY: I agree.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That check fraud conviction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve done what I thought is fair, based on what I know.
BAEZ: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will we see her back in Orlando?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to hear any of this media (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would say she ends up serving probation for one year.
CASEY ANTHONY: What the hell is going on? I`m sorry for what I did. I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Fear not.
(LAUGHTER)
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: You know, I think it`s probably safe to say that Casey Anthony is the most vilified, maybe the most hated woman in America at this point. But she has been found not guilty. I know I`m going to get your phone calls. I`m going to get your e-mails for saying this, but let`s stop and think about her for a moment.
She has lost her daughter. Maybe through her own fault or maybe not. She`s lost her father, her mother, her brother. This -- the family dynamic that played out in that courtroom was so heartbreaking, I`ll tell you.
I want to talk to our two psychotherapists tonight. Mike Dow and Elyn Gamberg -- I`m sorry, Elyn, I forgot your last name for a second.
Talk to me about how someone rehabilitates their mental state when they can`t call on the very support group that they have grown to trust and love? There is no mother. There is no father. There is no -- there is no one there for her except this little band of lawyers. How does she fare with that? Mike?
MIKE DOW, PSY.D., ADDICTION EXPERT, HOST OF TLC`S "FREAKY EATERS": Well, I think she`s got to feel really alone. You know the thing that really scares me, there were reports that she had a dream about being pregnant. And I got to tell you, if you feel all alone in the world and there`s nobody out there for you, you know, that leads to a couple of things -- having sex with multiple partners and pregnancy.
So I think we have to -- we have to treat this woman because, you know, there is a very good possibility that, you know, her mental health issues are going to continue and who knows what`s going to happen in her future.
DIMOND: Yes. And she did reach out in a sexual way to a lot of partners that we heard from in court.
Elyn, what are your -- what is your thinking about all of this? You know I sat in court one day and I saw her older brother, Lee, asked a question about why he didn`t go to the hospital when the baby was born, and he began to sob.
And here was a grown man sobbing about being excluded from this part of his sister`s life and I thought, wow, there is a dynamic here that`s very painful and very raw, all these years later with this young man. So how does she try to heal from this?
GAMBERG: I think, Diane, the first thing is that in therapy to address those family dynamics, and by doing that, giving her hope that those dynamics can replay and first by going back and revisiting the relationships and then moving forward, she can understand better and with the hopes of healing those relationships with a lot of hope and counseling and understanding of the family.
DIMOND: For goodness sakes, she accused her father and her brother of sexually molesting her in that court. I mean, how do you heal that? Isn`t it almost easier to walk away and never talk to them again?
GAMBERG: I don`t -- I think that probably not. It`s easier for her. However, with treatment, she`s going to have to look into if indeed it is true forgiveness. If it`s not true, and she does have a history of pathological lying, then they have to look and that needs to be addressed. Is she a pathological liar? Is she believing her own lie?
DIMOND: Right. Well, and I`m sure there are a lot of people out here watching this program, watching Nancy Grace regularly, who are saying to themselves, why is she even caring about Casey Anthony and whether or not she`s going to be rehabbed, forget about her.
But this is someone who`s going to be walking around in society, folks, and I think we need to think about it.
Let`s go to Bonnie in Virginia. She`s been holding. Hi, Bonnie.
BONNIE, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hello. I`ve had a question for a long time. When Casey was in jail, almost every day she would get to leave the jail and go to Baez`s office and talk to him there and sit in his office all day.
Don`t attorneys usually go to the jail and talk to their clients?
DIMOND: Well, I`m going to -- I`m going to bring in Ellie Jostad on this because I know she knows this case so well.
But, Ellie, isn`t it the fact that once -- in the early stages, when she was in and out of prison, she would get to go to Baez, but once she was in.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right.
DIMOND: There were no trips out.
JOSTAD: No, no, no, no. She -- you know, she was out on bail twice during this case. And that video that we show, that`s her running back and forth to Baez`s office when she was out on bail. Once she was in jail for good, and that was October 2008, Baez had to come to the jail to visit her. She didn`t get to leave to go visit him.
DIMOND: I hope that answers your question, Bonnie. It was only in the early stages she got to do that. Otherwise it was 23 hours solitary.
Let`s go to Holly in Ohio. Hi, Holly.
HOLLY, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Diane. How are you?
DIMOND: I`m great. How are you?
HOLLY: I`m good. I have a question.
DIMOND: OK.
HOLLY: Casey lied to her parents, to her brother, to the FBI, to lawyers, she`s a liar. Why does any media person seem to think that they`re going to sit across from her, pay her a million dollars for murdering her daughter and get the truth out of this woman?
And, you know what, she will rot in hell, justice will be found when she stands in front of the Lord like O.J.
DIMOND: Well, you know, I hear what you`re saying there at the end. But to answer your -- the first part of your question, I`ve been a reporter for a long, long time. I know people at ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, I know them all. And I don`t think there isn`t one reporter who wouldn`t want to sit down with her and try to trip her up on some of her lies.
But you`re right. She lied to grandmas and grandpas and moms and dads and cops and everybody. And so why anyone would ever pay her money for that, I got to tell you, Holly, I don`t think anybody ever will. I think the public outcry has been such that nobody ever will.
Remember O.J. Let`s go back to O.J. No one ever paid him money for an interview that I`m aware of anyway because he was a pariah. And I see Casey Anthony in that light right now.
Michael Christian, do you agree or do you -- I mean you`re right there in Orlando. Do you see network people, for instance, who are still clamoring to get her interview?
CHRISTIAN: You know, I think the draw of being the first one to get her -- an interview with her is overwhelming. You know how competitive we news people are.
DIMOND: Right.
CHRISTIAN: So I think -- I think there is a drive to be the first one to get her. But your callers are absolutely right. How could you ever believe her?
And you know, Diane, I always think back on the interview that Connie Chung did with Gary Condit, Representative Gary Condit after the Chandra Levy thing.
DIMOND: I remember that.
CHRISTIAN: And that was such a coup for Connie Chung to get that. And they did this interview, I believe, live, as I recall, and he basically said nothing. And I remember watching it thinking, what`s the point of this interview? He`s not saying anything.
DIMOND: Right.
CHRISTIAN: And I think a lot of people would have the same theory, the same feeling with an interview with Casey Anthony. It`s like, why is she doing this because you`re not getting anything out of it. That would be the problem.
DIMOND: Yes. And with Condit it was well timed. He knew how much time he had live and he just ate it up saying absolutely nothing. Casey Anthony would be so well trained, forget about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASON: The good part is that she`s gone.
CASEY ANTHONY: This is seriously the first time that I`ve been angry.
MASON: Nobody will be able to find her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Mason hopes she will also be free from what he calls Casey world.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t even know what to say.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: After almost three years behind bars --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Couldn`t think of a better more appropriate way to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The judge in her check fraud case wants her back there to serve one year of probation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Going to go into a rehab facility to see professional treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And during the trial, her facial expressions and the way she was looking and reacting made you think there might be some issue here.
CASEY ANTHONY: Seen this every day on the media for the last month.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bidding war with the networks on who`s going to get the interview.
LARRY FLYNT, PUBLISHER: We made an offer of half a million dollars.
CASEY ANTHONY: That would be pretty much on the money.
FLYNT: I want to see her in her birthday suit.
CASEY ANTHONY: It helps, the exposure has helped.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: What a case. And we`re almost out of time tonight. But we have time for one more caller.
He is Wes and he`s in Texas. Hi, Wes.
WES, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Diane. I got a question for you here. I know in court they might do it different, but in Texas, if you`re in prison, you`re already under, you know, watch and, you know, you`re serving, you know, under -- you know, guard there. How can the people in Florida, all those guys that are serving right now, aren`t they serving the times of their probation?
DIMOND: Yes, no, no. Let`s bring in Terence Lenamon, because he is our Florida lawyer on the panel tonight.
Terence, that`s not the case at all. I mean do you know of any other prisoners who served their probation from behind bars?
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Absolutely. What you have to understand this is not -- this is not a state prison sentence. This was a local sentence. In Miami, we used to do it all the time. People would be put in drug programs that were taking place inside the jails and the special condition of that, 364 -- 364 days in jail, they would do a special condition of a task or drug program, and done all the time.
The judge had some authority to enforce that and extend their sentence if they scored higher than the 364 if they didn`t comply. So it happens all the time.
DIMOND: That`s very interesting. Here I thought probation meant once you`re out, we want to make sure you keep your nose clean. We`re learning something here every night.
Well, tonight, let`s stop to remember Private 1st First Class Eric Kavanagh, 20 years old, from Glen Birney, Maryland, killed in action in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart. His final resting place is Arlington National Cemetery.
Eric loved playing the guitar and boating. He`s remembered as a gentle soul. He leaves behind his parents Kevin and Rhonda, grandparents Shirley and Keith, his brother Patrick and his sister Alana.
Eric Kavanagh, a true American hero.
I want to thank all of our guests for being here tonight. I`m Diane Dimond sitting in for Nancy Grace. See you right back here tomorrow, 8:00 Eastern Time, sharp. Have a great evening.
END
