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Dr. Drew
Is Casey Anthony in Ohio?; Was Celina Cass Murdered?
Aired August 03, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Breaking Casey Anthony news. Could the judge be siding with her?
Then, young girls, sex slaves, right here in America. Where is the outrage and the anger? Former FLDS members reveal their tales of escape from a harrowing lifestyle that may be perfectly legal.
We are live tonight, and we`re going to figure this out.
As you know, Warren Jeffs is on trial for the sexual assault of two underage girls who are his spiritual wives. Now, these girls are children who are not in a position to choose to reject his advances or those of the other grown men in the FLDS.
Here`s why we have to focus on in this. I`m really just trying to make sense of this for our viewers.
And one of the issues is, these are children who are powerless. They are forced into these circumstances.
What happens when humans get forced into powerless situations at a young age, as a child, it creates a freeze response. It`s actually a death feigning reaction to terror.
Victims, like, play dead emotionally and physically to survive. And this has lasting effects on the brain and behaviors that repeat themselves through adulthood, where victims end up being attracted to what harm them most. And sometimes the people or the victims become the perpetrators.
This is what`s going on in that environment. And we`re going to hear from women who lived this a little later in the show.
But first, we`re going to Casey Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: TMZ has posted pictures allegedly showing Casey Anthony in Ohio, with an Ohio State hat on and all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A person who looks like Casey walking down the street.
It`s a woman with dark hair and a cap and sunglasses.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The question is, is it really her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her attorneys say they can neither confirm nor deny her whereabouts. Breaking news in the Casey Anthony case. Number one, she will not have to return to Orlando tomorrow to begin serving one year of supervised probation.
And Judge Belvin Perry just signed a stay that will delay Casey Anthony`s return to Orlando. And there`s going to be a hearing set for this Friday in Judge Perry`s courtroom.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: All right. The big question is, is she or isn`t she? Is Casey Anthony in Ohio?
Now, we`re doing what we can to get our hands on the photos. Right now you can check them out on TMZ.
They show what appear to be Casey shopping at a thrift store in Ohio. So, what`s the first thing she did after being found not guilty of murdering her daughter? If this is actually her, it looks like she went shopping, had her nails done, and got a layered haircut.
This alleged Casey was wearing light jeans and a tight gray T-shirt and was hiding under an Ohio State baseball hat. Go, Ohio State.
Now, remember this from "Star" magazine? Well, it seems like in the end, there was no big disguise, no blonde wig, no facial reconstructive surgery. She had her hair in pigtails and was wearing glasses.
Plus, more breaking news tonight. As you just heard, Casey doesn`t have to come out of hiding. She doesn`t have to -- well, not that she is in hiding. She doesn`t have to come back from Ohio, I guess. She doesn`t have to show up for a probation hearing in Florida.
So what`s going on with all of this? We`re here to figure it out.
I`m going straight to my guests. Attorneys Mark Geragos, Mark Eiglarsh and Alison Triessl are here with me.
Let`s talk first about the photos, Mark Geragos. Is she in Ohio? Do you know anything?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I probably do, and I doubt that that`s her in Ohio.
PINSKY: Oh, is that right?
GERAGOS: Yes. I don`t think that that`s her in Ohio.
PINSKY: Oh, no kidding?
GERAGOS: And if I did know, I wouldn`t say where she is. But I doubt that most of these reports are accurate.
PINSKY: Now, it supposedly was in the town where I think her aunt and uncle live. Is that why people are swarming around there?
GERAGOS: Right. Exactly. Everybody is playing Where is Waldo?
PINSKY: And do you think someone planted a Waldo in the middle of that town?
GERAGOS: No. I think that whenever you have a situation like this where somebody is looking for somebody, that there is always going to be sightings. There`s sightings even when somebody is dead.
PINSKY: I heard a sighting with you in New York City I think with Waldo.
GERAGOS: Right. Right. Exactly.
PINSKY: Can`t talk about it.
GERAGOS: Can`t talk about it. That`s exactly right.
PINSKY: All right.
Well, the probation thing is very confusing to me. Now, will Casey have to serve probation in Orlando?
Jose Baez was on NBC`s "Today Show." Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: I think it`s very confusing. The Department of Corrections issued that because she served her probation. She has completed the terms of probation.
Had she done something in the jail that would have violated her probation, she would have had a probation violation and had to serve time for that violation. So she was exposed to probation. She completed it. The probation officer actually came out and met with her, and they continued to monitor her.
She has completed her probation. There`s no doubt about it.
Now, there`s one other thing. In the state of Florida, a judge has 60 days to make a correction to the order. That day has long gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: OK.
Mark Eiglarsh, explain this to us. I`m very confused. What`s going on with this probation? What is Baez talking about here?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s actually a lot of merit to what he is arguing.
First of all, there`s clearly a conflict between what the judge said orally and what the clerk put down. The clerk put down that the probation was to begin right away. The judge said clearly it`s to begin after she is released from custody.
Then, allegedly, if Jose Baez is telling the truth, and he is accurate, someone from probation then came to the jail, and she then began serving her probation just like the judgement and sentence said. By the way, the judge could have said, wait, this isn`t what I meant. But the judge signed off on that.
The government also. The state never came forward to say this isn`t right. So probation began.
And a very compelling argument can be made that then she served her probation, and now the court no longer has jurisdiction, because the one year was served, and then, Judge Strickland, this court cannot do anything. She served her probationary time, and thus that`s it.
PINSKY: Mark Geragos, you were shaking your head when Jose Baez`s tape was playing. Do you agree?
GERAGOS: It`s a slam-dunk. This judge not only doesn`t have her on probation, he has got no authority to do anything to her. I`d tell him to go pound sand.
PINSKY: Alison, why did he recuse himself?
ALISON TRIESSL, ATTORNEY: Well, because he is biased. I mean, this guy -- first of all, you don`t -- once you touch a case, you don`t go on TV and talk about it as a judge.
And he said the verdict is shocking. And then he wants to bring her back in and extend probation? She`s done her time whatever you think of the verdict.
GERAGOS: The only person who needs to be on probation is this guy as a judge. And I think that whatever the judicial panel is in Florida ought to be investigating this guy. Frankly, if he were in California, he`d be brought up on charges.
TRIESSL: Absolutely.
EIGLARSH: There`s another argument that you`re going to hear. The other argument is, what the judge says orally is what governs, not what`s written down.
So, for example, if the judge had said four years for lying, and the Department of Corrections erroneously thinks 14 years, obviously the defense would say, no, let`s go back to what the judge said orally. So, clearly, what the judge says orally governs.
However, here is the problem. The prosecution never said anything. And the defense is going to argue that, you know, the judge never fixed what he said, and thus she did her time.
GERAGOS: The reason it`s a slam-dunk is that probation went there. She relied on it. She did exactly what she was supposed to do.
This idea that somehow because she`s in jail she can`t serve probation is ludicrous. You can get sentenced to jail as a condition of probation every day of the year.
PINSKY: I`m just wondering if this is going to be another liability, another case of Casey sucking somebody else into her life. This judge is now taken off the bench because of Casey Anthony. There`s all these fatalities in the Casey Anthony case.
TRIESSL: But Drew, probation wrote her a completion letter and said - -
PINSKY: No, I saw the letter. I saw it. I understand. But Mark Eiglarsh was saying that the judge said something different.
Hang on a second.
GERAGOS: It doesn`t matter. This judge is done. He can`t touch this case.
PINSKY: All right. I want to go back to what started it all.
Take a look at this. Casey was caught on camera using stolen checks at Target. She used her best friend`s checkbook to buy lingerie, beer, and clothing while her 2-year-old daughter was missing. Now, the jury never heard about any of this.
You know, Mark, what`s your take? Should she -- should there be any consequence for this going forward? Or that`s it, it`s just all done?
GERAGOS: There was a consequence. She was held in custody as a condition of probation.
I mean, the fact is, in most jurisdictions, you get diverted for something like this. So I -- you know, she was made a felon because of it. So, yes, there are consequences.
And I don`t know. Why that would have been instructed to the jury is beyond me. How does that help tell you anything as to whether or not she did anything, if something was done, to her daughter?
PINSKY: Well, I mean, look, what -- Mark, you have something to say?
EIGLARSH: Yes. For me, what changes everything was what Jose said in that interview.
If they had -- if probation had not reported, and she didn`t then begin serving her time, I think my position would be different. But if she actually then began serving her time like probation, which doesn`t normally happen -- 99 percent of the time it doesn`t begin until after you`re released. However, it can begin, and it does under these types of circumstances.
PINSKY: OK. I get it.
Listen, I want to interrupt and ask a question in an entirely different direction. And that is, you say, why would the jury want to know something like that? And that is there`s a pattern of behavior here.
GERAGOS: No. Understand, there`s a difference. What you want to know as a doctor is different than what a jury is supposed to hear.
PINSKY: I get that, and it drives me crazy.
TRIESSL: And a soft-looking (ph) case is irrelevant. I mean, it`s irrelevant. It doesn`t --
PINSKY: But let me go back to the court of public opinion here a little bit. Again, people are just trying to make sense of this. Everyone is all upset about this case. The public has seen all the crazy behavior and all the lying. OK?
GERAGOS: Right. And I understand that. But understand the court of public opinion.
If you care about just the court of public opinion, then I have said this before, and I know I`ll get some hate e-mails about it, but we`d be in Iran or North Korea. We are here because we have got a judicial system which doesn`t throw people into the den and then do thumbs up or thumbs down.
We have a system that presumes innocence. We have a system that`s based on the principle that nine guilty should go free so that we don`t convict one innocent. That`s why we don`t let character assassinations supposedly in.
PINSKY: Mark, last comment here.
EIGLARSH: Geragos is on the mark, cheesy pun intended. He`s absolutely right. It`s not just about Casey Anthony. It`s about every one of us who are ever accused of anything. You don`t let court of public opinion dictate.
PINSKY: But guys, I want to ask something.
Mark, I`m going to interrupt.
EIGLARSH: It`s your show. Go ahead.
PINSKY: Because you guys -- all three of you do.
EIGLARSH: No, not me. Stop it.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Hold on. My question is, we`re back now in the court of public opinion. We have all had lots of experience with people that have sort of not such great behaviors.
My question is, based on what you`ve seen this woman do -- let`s belong in the court of public opinion, outside the courtroom -- do you think we`re going to see more trouble from her down the line given the line and the check fraud and everything that she`s --
GERAGOS: Well, yes. You want a perfect example of that?
PINSKY: Yes. O.J. Simpson.
GERAGOS: O.J. Simpson is good. I was going to go farther back. I was going to say Rodney King.
TRIESSL: But she needs help. And I think that her attorneys have advocated that she get some help. And she needs it.
PINSKY: I`ve heard all kinds of crazy rumors.
TRIESSL: And I have also heard that she wants to get help. And Dr. Drew, you of everybody should say people deserve a second chance and get them some help.
PINSKY: Absolutely. And the one thing I have been trying to decide in this case, is this a sick person or a criminal?
GERAGOS: Maybe give her an invitation for "Celebrity Rehab."
PINSKY: No. That is not going to happen.
Mark Eiglarsh, thank you.
Mark Geragos, Allison Triessl, appreciate it, guys. You`ve been part of a good panel here.
Tragedy in New Hampshire. Police discover the body of a missing fifth grader in a river. Tonight, cops are scouring her home, and we`ll tell you what they could be looking for. That is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How well did you know him? Did you ever have occasion to see him when you would be visiting your daughters?
ADAM LARO, CELINA CASS` FATHER: Yes. I went up there a few times to visit the girls. He was there.
And one time he showed me the girls -- had the girls get their report cards and show me their report cards and stuff like that. They always did good with me. You know? I have no bad reports or bad things to say about anybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE YOUNG, NEW HAMPSHIRE SR. ASSIST. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We discovered the body of Celina Cass in the Connecticut River in Stewartstown. Until we determine the cause and manner of her death, we are just going forward as a suspicious death. But we are treating it as a criminal investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And we want to bring you breaking news tonight on a story we have been following out of New Hampshire.
Eleven-year-old Celina Cass was found dead in a river after she vanished from her very own bedroom. Tonight, investigators swarmed Celina`s home, and they hauled away a silver truck neighbors say was driven mostly by the stepdad.
Now, I want to be clear that Celina`s stepdad, Wendell Noyes, has not been named a suspect. But my producer came across his Facebook page, and there was some peculiar activity we`re going to tell you about.
Celina`s autopsy has also come back. They could not determine a cause of death, but are conducting toxicology tests as we speak.
We are also learning tonight that Celina`s body was wrapped in a blanket. Now, does this suggest murder?
Straight to my guests. Attorney Mark Geragos remains with me in the studio. Criminal profiler Pat Brown is here as well, and reporter Charlie Jordan joins us by phone.
Charlie, tell us about the police towing this truck. I understand no one has seen the stepdad in a couple of days either.
CHARLIE JORDAN, EDITOR, "COLEBROOK CHRONICLE": Well, what happened, Dr. Drew, was just before noon -- I mean, it`s one of these situations that the case, you know, you rush to wait, and then you wait, and all of a sudden today, activity really heightened around the family home, which is now surrounded once again by police tape.
Both the Vermont and New Hampshire crime scene trucks were there at the home today. And about just a few minutes before noon, they hauled away this silver truck, which the chatter on Facebook that we`re reading from people who know the family say this has been driven, as you say, primarily by the stepfather.
This is actually the second vehicle to be taken from the home. But, you know, there`s quite a number of cars around and trucks around this house. So why they singled out this one today, you know, is open for conjecture.
PINSKY: Now we have the smell of death potential accusation.
GERAGOS: Exactly. They captured the air.
The biggest problem they have got, at least initially with this case, is that right now it`s inconclusive as to the death. So they have got to kind of move from there. If what you`ve just said is accurate in terms of it being found wrapped in a blanket, that would suggest that she did not get there on her own.
PINSKY: On her own.
GERAGOS: Exactly.
PINSKY: It`s all very suspicious, right, appropriate that --
GERAGOS: Yes. It`s completely appropriate for there to be -- for it to be labeled a suspicious death. And it`s totally appropriate for them to be doing a criminal investigation.
PINSKY: OK. I want to show you one other thing. And I again preface this by saying Celina`s stepdad, Wendell Noyes, is not a suspect.
We found something unsettling. Take a look at his Facebook page. We believe this is his account.
It looks and matches to all the info. It certainly looks to be him.
His interests include pages like "Meet Hot Girls Today." He has 150 friends. Almost every single one of them is a female with a provocative, sexy, photo in their Facebook. And, in fact, many of them appear to be in the sex industry.
He posts comments on their walls. And they are kind of weird. And then, again, we were sort of -- we had an unpleasant feeling reading and following this thread.
Again, he is not a suspect. We have tried to reach him, but we could not get in touch with him.
Mark, it does not appear he has hired an attorney. Doesn`t he have some explaining to do?
GERAGOS: Well, I can guarantee you that if they are taking the truck, and the truck is driven by him, that he is clearly somebody that they are focused on, which is not surprising in something like this. They always start off -- and I know this is not news to most of your viewers, but they always start with the immediate family and then they work out. And so that makes sense.
And I guarantee you that one of those investigative teams has already looked at the same thing you just looked at.
PINSKY: But if you were his attorney, wouldn`t you take that down first thing? Wouldn`t you get rid of stuff like that? I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: They`re cached and you`re not going to be able to do anything with it. In fact, I think it looks even worse if you tell somebody to start taking it down.
PINSKY: You take it down. Oh, that`s interesting. All right.
We are just learning tonight that Celina and her sister -- listen to this -- had reportedly been sleeping in the basement of their home because a 23-year-old family friend was staying in Celina`s room. Now, police have interviewed this man, along with Celina`s stepdad and others. We are also hearing reports that the body was wrapped in a blanket.
Criminal profiler Pat Brown, I want to go out to you. Does any of this add up to a tell, so to speak?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, one of the interesting things is we don`t know about the other people in Celina`s life, like this 23-year- old. I hadn`t heard about that before.
So, while we have the stepfather who we say is not a suspect at this point, but surely is a creepy guy that she was in contact with, there may be other creepy guys she was in contact with, because maybe that`s the way this whole group operates. They have a lot of creepy friends or creepy relatives.
So the police may look at that stuff right away and say, look, here we have a guy who broke into his ex-girlfriend`s house. He was labeled psychotic, but I`m going to guess more psychopathic. And now he has that Facebook page which has got mostly women in the sex trade. So he likes hookers.
And he is a married man. So he`s creepy in that way. And he is around this little girl as well.
So, obviously, they`re going to look at him. But they can look at somebody else who is just as bad maybe in the family.
PINSKY: That`s right. I have got to wrap you up.
Thank you, Pat.
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you, Charlie.
And next, I`ve got your calls about the FLDS. We`re going to try to separate fact from fiction.
And later, women who lived it and left. They tell us about life on the inside of an FLDS cult. Organized crime or legitimate religion?
We`re going to figure it out when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We will be talking later with two women who reveal some really unbelievable details about life inside the FLDS.
But first, we`re going to hear from some of you.
Now, I`ve got Rebecca on the line from California.
And Rebecca, I guess you know about this first hand. Tell us about it.
REBECCA, CALIFORNIA: Well, hello, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Rebecca.
REBECCA: Warren Jeffs` father, Rulon Jeffs, performed my marriage when I was a child bride. I had nine pregnancies and six living births, all except one, by the time I was 23. If I was 23.
I was born in slavery. I worked as a slave. I was bred as a slave. And I was sold as a slave.
PINSKY: Rebecca, you`re saying some terribly, terribly powerful things here. Let me just sort out some of what you said.
You said "If I`m 23." How is it you don`t know your real age?
REBECCA: Because my father forged all of our birth certificates because in Utah, then, you could get married legally with your parents` consent at the age of 15. So all of my sisters got married at allegedly 15, but one of them never got a birth certificate until she was sometime in her 40s because we had to help her get one. And I grew two-and-a-half inches taller after my first baby was born.
PINSKY: And so you said you were born into slavery. What would happen if you didn`t obey orders? You were inside this FLDS community, I guess.
REBECCA: Oh, yes. I was born into polygamy. I knew nothing else.
PINSKY: And so help us get inside -- two things I want to do. In fact, I`m going to ask you to stay around until later in the show. I want to talk to you when we have the women on the show who also escaped from the FLDS.
What is going on in the head of these women that have been indoctrinated into this from cradle to death? How do they think about this?
REBECCA: The glue that holds the cults together -- and they are cults -- is fear, not faith. We grew up in fear of a bloodthirsty and terrifying God that was going to destroy us not just in this life, but for all eternity, if we turned away from the gospel, which was polygamy.
The Taliban have their honor killings. We had our blood atonement. So we had to live polygamy.
It was not -- you know, it was not a choice. They said you have a choice, but it was like holding a gun to your head and saying, do you do what I say or do I pull the trigger? Because your choice was --
PINSKY: It`s like a robber holding a gun to your head and saying, "Give me what you got or you will be guilty of murder."
REBECCA: Exactly.
PINSKY: OK. Listen, Rebecca, I want you to stay around and I want you to think a little bit about describing to us some of the rituals you have seen and things like that. I`m so glad you called, because you clearly have some firsthand experience. And we`re going to be talking to some women later who also have firsthand experience.
So I`m going to go on to a Facebook question here. So thank you, Rebecca.
This is from Keith, and he writes, "I think Warren Jeffs is mentally challenged. How is it possible for a person to recognize their own mental illness?"
And that is one of the features of certain mental illnesses, is lack of insight. I think I have talked about it here during these "On Call" segments, that people don`t perceive when their thinking is disturbed many times, and that`s part of the condition. Drug addicts certainly have some of that as well.
Finally, now, we`ve got Al, who writes, "Pedophiles come in many shape, sizes and creeds. Have you ever had to treat one of these types of people?"
And certainly I have treated people who themselves were severely abused in childhood and became perpetrators, or were about to become perpetrators. And the one message I consistently give out to people that may have been through this or have these sorts of impulses is, please, there is help. It takes a lot of work, but please get help before you harm somebody else, because you will.
Next, escape from the FLDS. What was life like on the inside? My guests next will tell us, and they will tell us in their own words.
You don`t want to miss this. And I`m going to have Rebecca back, too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Warren Jeffs on trial, the FLDS in the headlines, the sex tape documenting an alleged assault of a 12-year-old girl, the women raised in what some say is the most oppressive environment in America, and the genesis. Tonight, we`re looking back how it all started. Going behind the gates to see what it became and hearing how it finally ended for the brave women who got out of the FLDS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): More breaking news tonight. The jury in the Warren Jeffs case finally hears the prosecution`s key piece of evidence. It is a shocking audio recording. Prosecutors say that on it, you hear polygamous sect leader having sex with a 12-year-old girl. We`ve also heard that there may be other voices. The state -- meaning there are people standing around watching this. The state rested its case and just began his defense.
But let`s not forget what this is really about. The FLDS has been practicing this so-called ritual of sealing young girls to older men for decades right here amongst us, right here in this country. So, let`s spell this out. The state says this is sexual assault. I want to know how we got here, where this is happening. Who are these people who loyally follow their prophet, Warren Jeffs, and what`s going on with the mothers and sister wives that they willingly do this?
We heard Rebecca say that it feels like having a gun to your head. I want to hear more about this. I want to know why they stay. Are crimes being committed in the names of religious freedom here? Joining me to answer these questions is Gary Tuchman, CNN correspondent, who has covered the FLDS and Sam Brower who has investigated the FLDS for the past seven years and is the author of the new book, "Prophet`s Prey.` Sam, I`m going to start with you. Tell me what you heard in court today.
SAM BROWER, AUTHOR, "PROPHET`S PREY": Well, they played the tape of 12-year-old, Merrianne Jessop, being raped today. And I tell you what, Dr. Drew, I`ve seen countless people, victims, of Warren Jeffs. I`ve seen grown men sob recounting what happened to them at his hands as young boys. And I`ve known people who have driven their cars off cliffs and hang themselves and stood in front of trains that were victims of his.
And I suppose, today, all of that kind of came rushing back, because I can just describe it as being incredibly sad. The whole atmosphere was sad and disgusting and horrible. The tape is horrible. You could hear --
PINSKY: Yes. Please, I`m not sure I want to hear too much more. Certainly, we don`t want to name the victim. We want to, you know, respect the privacy of this young girl and the proceedings.
BROWER: All right.
PINSKY: But let me just ask something, because this whole idea of it having been a ritual is something that I just have trouble getting my head around. Was there more evidence about that that other leaders and the other wives were participating in this travesty?
BROWER: Yes, there were other wives participating. You could hear the voices of young girls, and an older sister wife, Naomi Jessop, who was with Warren Jeffs when he was arrested, who is actually the trainer for the 12-year-old girl. And, also, a couple of other wives in this tape. So, it`s something that he has established as ritualistic rape.
PINSKY: With the participation of these other women. And I -- I expect the women -- maybe I`m -- I expect women to find their way out of this. I`m looking for female heroes in this, because they`ve been such victims, and we need to sort of empower them. My question is, why can`t they leave? It seems to be a vicious cycle of fear. Take a listen to Laurie Allen and what she says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURIE ALLEN, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: If a woman is being beaten or her daughter is being raped, if she calls the police in that town, the police is FLDS. And he follows the orders of the prophet, not of the state. So, that woman is reported to her husband, and her sister wives, and is even more abused than she was abused before she made the call to the police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: But I think we have to -- I want to put a little finer point on what she`s saying there, which is people that have been abused have difficulty coming to their own defense, which is for sure the case. And just imagine the position these women are in with their children who are the products of some of these events, and they`re trying to protect the children and not allow the children to be blamed, and yet, they`re in this wild system. Gary, my question is, why can`t the authorities and why have they been so unable to do anything?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dr. Drew, county authorities and state authorities in Arizona, Utah, and Texas have worked hard to do something, but that`s the simple fact is that a lot of these women may be brave enough to leave if they didn`t have children, if they didn`t have sisters and brothers and mothers and fathers. This is all they know
Their families are there. And if they leave, and some of them have left, they can leave their families behind, and that`s the problem. What do they do? And that`s why most of them end up staying.
PINSKY: I think that`s right. I think they`re trying to protect other members of their community on a certain level. I want to show you a clip of FLDS women who support Warren Jeffs. Watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to make it real clear. I stand with warren. We back him -- I back him 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is religious persecution. They went in, and they attacked the community of the FLDS.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And took the children. They took their children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have an innocent man in prison for months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The children are still traumatized by the state of Texas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Sam, there`s kind of a mind-bending aspect to this, which is, apparently, some members are happy or like the life they`re leading or weren`t abused. How do we reconcile this? I mean, I think, for me, the question is, why does it get to -- these things get to develop above the law? Why can`t we exert the law of the land within this community and let them go on with their religious freedom so long as they behave accordingly with the law?
BROWER: Well, they`re a very sequestered group of people. They have their own police department. They have everything that a city has. And they`re able to be independent. When you go there, it`s like driving off the map. You can`t even explain it without going there. And so, they`re isolated. They live separate lives from the rest of the world, and they`re happy doing that. And these women, that`s all they know. That`s all they`ve grown up with.
PINSKY: But I -- you know, I want to get away from blaming the women here, because it is all they know. And I want to sort of look at the authority structure there, and that`s exactly what I`m saying, if they have their own police force or whatever, why aren`t they following the law of the land? And the elder men of the FLDS, apparently, don`t want younger men around. Why? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WATKISS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER KTVK: If one man is going to have multiple wives, you can`t have an equal number of men, and they basically just boot adolescent boys out in a very significant percentage. Just kick them out on the street and say, you`re gone. You`re out of this community. And believe it or not, many families adhere to them and say, sayonara, see you later, son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, if that`s true, Gary, religious groups wouldn`t castaway young men and leave them destitute, would they?
TUCHMAN: No, there`s a lot of things this particular religious group does that would not be considered religious. I think what`s really important, Dr. drew, about this trial -- by the way, just ending now for the day, the day in court. We thought the trial would end today, but Warren Jeffs is carrying on a long, lengthy defense. He had one witness, a member of his church. He talked to him for 3 1/2 hours. It was like a filibuster, and the judge doesn`t want to stop it because she doesn`t want a mistrial.
But what`s very interesting about this, about the tape that you played is that Warren Jeffs, during this trial, has not denied the allegations. He`s not saying he didn`t have sex with a 12-year-old or a 15-year-old. All he is saying is this is a violation of my religious rights.
And, of course, what we need to tell our viewers is that nowhere in the United States, what religion you are, whether you`re a prophet, whether you`re a peon, you can`t rape children. It`s never an excuse, never acceptable. If the jury listens to the judge`s instructions, there`s no chance that Warren Jeffs will be found not guilty.
PINSKY: I hope you`re right, Gary, because this really isn`t about religious freedom. This is about reasonable behavior and the law of the land and not cloaking it in religious freedom. Thank you, Gary, Sam, I appreciate it.
Next, a woman who says she was forced to marry her own cousin when she was just 14 years of age. These are real women we`re going to talk to, facing real horrors, behind the FLDS walls of secrecy. We`re going to hear about it. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELISSA WALL, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: I am confident, and I can look myself in the eye and know that I did everything in my power, everything in my power, to fight for myself. At the end of the day, I`m able to look at him and know without a shadow of a doubt that he is a mortal man, who has done heinous things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: $30,000. I suggest you take it and run, tonight, and make sure you don`t get caught by the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I`m roman`s favorite again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How far is Los Angeles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About nine hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, (INAUDIBLE). I`m going to be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: HBO`s "Big Love" gives us a small glimpse into the life of a young girl leaving a religious compound. I`m a fan of that show. I`m fascinated by the behaviors it examines and the nuances of these things of people struggling with this, but that`s TV. Young women -- and by the way, even on that show, when they get into the more problematic behaviors, they`re clearly portrayed as problematic and they get prosecuted.
It`s if they go on that`s what the extraordinary fact. In this country, that`s TV. Young women in this country are living this for real, Utah, Texas, Colorado, Arizona, and South Dakota. Joining us are two women who escaped the FLDS and what they say was a living hell. Elissa Wall spent 18 years in an FLDS compound. She was forced by Warren Jeffs to marry her own cousin when she was just 14. She is the author of "Stolen Innocence."
I also have Flora Jessop who fled the FLDS when she was 15. She`s been an outspoken advocate for those who have managed to leave the FLDS. And Rebecca is on the phone. I spoke to her during the on-call segment. She is from California back with us on the phone. Now, Elissa, women are clearly treated in ways that are, shall we say, unacceptable. What was your first memory of this?
WALL: My first memory as I look back on this would be the way my mother was treated, the way that she was treated really as a possession of the religion and my father, and the way that she was forced to treat her children, really. That was my first memory. And then, for me, my life experience of this went on to when I was married at 14 and forced into an abusive relationship.
PINSKY: So, the relationship not only was it abusive in that you were not of age to reasonably render consent, but it also was abusive beyond that?
WALL: Absolutely it was, yes. And a jury of our peers agreed with me in their conviction of Warren Jeffs of his accomplice to rape, my rape.
PINSKY: Well, let`s listen to a tape of Elissa testifying against Warren Jeffs. I believe she`s talking about this 2007 case. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALL: They turned to me and asked me, do I take Allen, and I just sat there, with my head hanging.
CRAIG BARLOW, PROSECUTOR: Were you crying?
WALL: Yes.
BARLOW: What kind of tears were they?
WALL: Despair. Fear.
BARLOW: Did you take Allen`s hand like you were asked?
WALL: Yes.
BARLOW: Did you do it with or without assistance?
WALL: With assistance.
BARLOW: Who helped you?
WALL: Warren told me to take his hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Elissa, it must be hard to listen to that.
WALL: It is, yes.
PINSKY: Yes. And that ultimately was overturned, correct?
WALL: Yes. Sadly, it was overturned.
PINSKY: This is the thing. This is the thing. The reason I`m reporting on this case is I -- for women, generally, and certainly, I hope my female viewers at home, women are powerless and so profoundly disempowered in this community. I literally can`t sit by and just watch it. I`m a father. I have a daughter. I have a wife. I want to get -- I want to understand this. I want to get to the bottom of it.
And, I hope the viewers understand that`s why we`re trying to get our head around this and hearing more about this. Flora, yesterday you were very emotional. I believe it was when you had to listen to some of these tapes that are being played in court. How are you doing today?
FLORA JESSOP, FORMER FLDS MEMBER: I`m doing better. I wouldn`t say great. But, it is so extremely hard to listen to children being abused. You know, children are sacred ground. And when you have to listen to this and it`s something that you lived through yourself, it`s very, very hard to deal with. But we deal with it every day, because if we don`t, it happens again and again and again to somebody else.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this, Flora. I`m wondering if this is -- why this has been so ignored. Is it because a large part of the victimization is of women? Do you find other women in the legislatures or -- Elissa, you have something to say to this? Are there other women in authority positions in the state? Yes, please, go ahead.
JESSOP: You know, it`s more than that. It`s the fact that when a victim does come out of one of these closed societies as myself, as Elissa, as Elissa`s sister, Becky, as Carolyn Jessop, as all of us, we are attacked, not only by the culture, but a lot of times by outsiders that are sympathetic and by the officials that are supposed to be helping us. And it wears on you. And, you know, a lot of people just look at you as a crazy ex-wife out for revenge.
And so, you get attacked. You get your character assassination. You know, everybody thinks that you`re the bad guy because you`re talking about the priesthood and religion and all of that. And it has nothing to do with any of that. It has to do with what the abuses are.
PINSKY: Elissa, do you have a response to that?
WALL: I absolutely agree. That`s been the most shocking experience about my life journey, and even coming out, it was devastating to come out of that religion and to go through the psychological change that I had to go through to adapt in society. And even coming forward and being a voice for the thousands of women that are there, and even the men that are there.
It was shocking to see how much of society does not want to accept this is possible. They don`t want to accept that religious freedoms are being used in this way.
PINSKY: Let me ask you this, what happened to your cousin and former husband? Do you talk to him?
WALL: Oh, absolutely not. He was actually -- he was actually charged with crimes himself. And recently, this year, he came to a plea bargain in Southern Utah, in Washington County. Ultimately, his plea bargain, he got 30 days in jail.
PINSKY: And Elissa, how did you finally come to awareness that you wanted to leave? I assume there`s no electronic media. You`re really not aware of the outside world. How did you have a sufficient awareness to want to get outside of what`s such a closed system?
WALL: For me, that was a journey of itself. I had to go through all the horrors of being in that abusive relationship, of watching the women around me, watching the men around me, watching the people around me be abused. And really, it became a survival for me. Realizing that there had to be something better, there had to be, and been forced back into this relationship multiple times, like all women within this community.
And being told to submit to this man who was my assigned husband, mind, body, and soul, and not really having an identity, not having even a soul, and having that ripped from me. It took that, and that desire to have life, that desire to have something beautiful, something other than what I had was what forced me into a position where I believed I could fight for myself.
PINSKY: Yes. Resiliency of the human spirit. Rebecca, I know you`re still with me. I`ve only got -- Flora, you want to finish. I`ll go back to Rebecca after the break, perhaps. Go ahead, Flora.
JESSOP: I just want to really quick add to that that when you come from this society, people need to understand we don`t choose to forsake our families. We would rather be with our families, but when the abuse gets so bad in heaven, you`re willing to take a chance on hell to see if it will get better. And that`s where we all have to get to.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, guys. I`ve got to go to break, but I just hope it makes sense to this. When people come from very close family systems, it`s the ones that leave and get healthy that are sometimes ostracized or often, typically.
Now, these girls, the women, escaped the horror behind the walls of FLDS. Next, what about those who may left behind?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Well, I`ve got a million questions for my guests and only about three minutes here. Elissa Walls was 14 when she was taken to a motel and forced to marry her own cousin. Flora Jessop was 15 when she escaped her compound. Rebecca is still on the phone with us. She says she was an FLDS slave. They`re all back with me. And although they escaped, they`ve never forgotten those they left behind.
Rebecca, I want to start back with you. Thank you for patiently waiting during our last segment. Rebecca, this must all sound very familiar to you.
VOICE OF "REBECCA": Indeed. I would like to say that I don`t think you understand that these women are living in a concentration camp. And if you`re in a concentration camp with your children, which one are you going to save? Can you save one? My husband used to threaten to hurt my infant, threaten my baby, and said if anything happens to her, it will be your fault.
So, you see, the depriving of sleep, the hurting the children, the work and no food, were common ways of punishment. They`re in a concentration camp. They`re not going to testify against anybody while they`re there.
PINSKY: Rebecca, let me ask you something. I`m going to ask you something. You said you had nine children by the time you were 23.
"REBECCA": I had nine pregnancies (INAUDIBLE) children.
PINSKY: Six kids. How are they doing now?
"REBECCA": Actually, they`re grown. They`re safe. (INAUDIBLE). They`re very independent. And if they weren`t, I would be afraid to talk to you.
PINSKY: And Flora or Elissa, do you have any questions for Rebecca?
JESSOP: I would just like to say that I`m very proud of her for getting out, and stay strong, and we`re all family. And God bless you.
"REBECCA": Flora, you don`t know how close a family we are.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Flora describes it a family wreath, not a family tree in those environments. You can kind of understand why, but, Flora, we have less than two minutes left. Would you revisit for me, I believe you told us the story about as a young girl seeing how the babies were treated and what you wished to be able to do with your two arms?
JESSOP: Well, when I was a child growing up, watching the water boarding of the babies, where they would teach the babies not to cry by holding their faces under the water, I swore that I was never going to have more than two children, because I knew I could grab two children and run. But if I had three children, I was going to have to stand there and take what they gave me.
PINSKY: That`s awful. And finally, Elissa, this cousin-husband of yours, he only got 30 days in jail. Is the system really failing women at the FLDS?
WALL: Honestly, this past year has been kind of a brutal reality check when it comes to the realities of the system. And I do believe that we have to, as a society, we have to take into account that we`re dealing with a completely different monster than normal society, and we have to realize that.
And I do believe that the system could use some adjustment as far as dealing with these communities, and keeping intact the freedoms that we have as Americans, but realizing that we have to fight. We have to fight for these people. We have to fight for their soul, and to allow them to continue to live their life, but remember, that we cannot put up with this abuse any longer. We cannot.
PINSKY: Thank you. Thank You, Elissa. I think that`s a great message for people generally, by the way. And this is about empowering women. Flora, thank you. Thank you, Rebecca, of course.
And a reminder that, you know, for us all to check ourselves. We may live in cultural norms that we should really kind of think about a little bit. I mean, this is an extreme example where that goes out of control, but we all could check ourselves a little bit. And remember if you`re in a closed system and you decide to step out, it may attack you even when you get healthy.
Thank you all for watching, and I`ll see you next time.
END
