Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony Does Not Have to Return to Orlando for Hearing
Aired August 03, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DIANE DIMOND, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Just as Department of Corrections officials announce Casey Anthony must report to the Orlando probation office by 10:00 o`clock tomorrow morning, an emergency hearing late today brings it all to a screeching halt. The judge in the case, Judge Stan Strickland, has recused himself, and guess who`s now in charge? Yes, Chief Judge Belvin Perry again, the man who presided over Casey`s murder trial.
In just 48 hours, Casey Anthony`s lawyers will be back in Perry`s court to fight the court order from Judge Strickland saying that Casey Anthony must serve one year probation on her check fraud conviction. But if the defense`s arguments fail and Casey does have to return to supervised probation in Orlando, her home address will be made public, and that according to the Florida Department of Corrections.
And with Casey Anthony possibly getting forced -- being forced out of hiding soon, photographs have surfaced purporting to be the one-time murder suspect shopping and taking a stroll in the state of Ohio. Are these pictures real?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We now know the judge in the check fraud case wants her in Orlando.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These checks came from her friend`s car, Amy Huizenga.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: Sincerely apologize to Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She served 412 days in jail on the fraud charge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
CHENEY MASON, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Right now, we`re filing one motion to set aside and to vacate that stupid order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are unhappy about this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re saying, Uh-uh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Strickland said probation was to start after her release.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On day 413, her probation began.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Supervised probation, once released.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said "once released"!
CASEY ANTHONY: I wish I would have been a better friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Anything else?
CASEY ANTHONY: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Good evening, everyone, and welcome. I`m Diane Dimond, filling in tonight for Nancy Grace. We are going to take your calls live tonight, so get ready with your questions for our panel.
So will Casey Anthony finally be forced out of hiding? For the very latest on this, let`s go now to Drew Petrimoulx. He is a reporter with K - - I`m sorry, WDBO radio in Orlando. So Drew, Friday, everybody`s back in court. What do we expect might happen? And Casey does not have to be there, right?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO: No, she will not -- she doesn`t have to be there. She could show up, if she really wanted to. You have to think that would be pretty unlikely.
DIMOND: Yes, I think a no.
(LAUGHTER)
PETRIMOULX: But what they`re going to do -- yes, they`re going to sort out this whole probation issue. The judge who was -- Judge Stan Strickland -- he was once the judge in the murder case, eventually recused himself, but he was overseeing the case whenever Casey pled guilty to charges of check fraud. He sentenced her to time served, which was about 412 days in jail, and also gave her one year of probation.
Now, in court, he said that would be after she is released from jail, but when he issued the order on it, it wasn`t specific enough of when she would serve that time. So the Department of Corrections actually had her serve her probation while she was in jail. Now, after she was released, Judge Stan Strickland issued another order saying that he wanted this to be served after she was released.
Her defense, of course, not happy at all with that. They are fighting it tooth and nail, saying she`s already served her probation, it`s double jeopardy, it`s a judge that has no jurisdiction because he has recused himself from this case.
So we`re all going to go back to court on Friday and try to sort this probation out, see whether or not Casey Anthony will have to come back to Orlando, prove that she`s trying to get a job, you know...
DIMOND: OK, Drew -- OK, wait, wait, wait just a minute. Let`s back up a little bit because I think people are very confused. It is a very confusing situation. As you said, Stan Strickland said, This probation starts after you get out. And he said that when, back in January 2010?
PETRIMOULX: Exactly. He said that in court. But then what was filed with the court paperwork wasn`t specific enough...
DIMOND: Aha!
PETRIMOULX: ... apparently, and then that`s when the Department of Corrections put her on probation while she`s still in jail, which really makes no sense because the whole point of a probation is to have to check in with your probation officer...
DIMOND: OK, but...
PETRIMOULX: ... and determine whether or not you can live out in society.
DIMOND: It was the clerk of the court or someone, whoever wrote it down on a piece of paper, that made the mistake. And Strickland signed that order, not making it clear that the probation started upon release. Those words "upon release" were not on the piece of paper. Am I correct?
PETRIMOULX: Exactly.
DIMOND: OK.
PETRIMOULX: And what the defense would argue, that because the judge didn`t change that within 60 days, he can`t come back now after she`s released and make that change.
DIMOND: Yes. And you know what, Drew? They may have a point there.
Let`s bring in my good friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell. She has been all over this story from the very beginning, and she`s graciously, after working all day, agreed to stay with us here. Jane, deja vu all over again, right? We`re back in Judge Perry`s courtroom on Friday.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": You know, Diane, you and I go way back, and I have never seen a case, I don`t know if you have...
DIMOND: No.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... quite like this. We`ve covered some spectacular cases. But the left hand doesn`t know what the right hand is doing. And whether you like Casey Anthony or not, whether you think she got away with murder or not, the truth is that there is a little piece of paper I`m holding in my hands here that says, from the Department of Corrections, said, Hey, Ms. Casey, as they call her, you`ve done your time and you`ve completed your supervision and have a nice life.
So I don`t think, after this -- and now, Jose Baez said they actually interacted with her, the probation officials -- that they can turn around and say, You got to do it all over again.
It really does smack of sour grapes. It smacks of a law enforcement judicial community that it feels very stung and feel very resentful over the fact that Casey Anthony walked on murder one, and they`re trying to stick it to her. I hate to say it.
DIMOND: Now, Jane, let me -- let me ask you this. You were in court. I was in court. We watched Judge Perry. He is a very thoughtful jurist. He is the one who said -- I mean, are we getting a hint from his past actions? He is the one who said, OK, Casey Anthony, you`ve been found not guilty of most things, you can get out on this date -- Oh, wait, let me recalculate, OK, this date. And he`s the one that let her out. So now that he is faced with this on the check fraud charges, does that give us a clue on what he might do? She`s served her time.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. The corrections officers and the officials were today holding two news conferences saying she`s got to show up tomorrow morning, and then Judge Perry went (INAUDIBLE) and put the brakes on it and said, No, we`re going to have a hearing and we`re going to talk about this. We`re going to hear the defense motion on Friday morning.
And my personal feeling is -- I`ve been wrong many times before, but I have a feeling he`s going to look at all this and say, You can`t make her do it twice, it`s double jeopardy.
DIMOND: Exactly. And the probation department has written this letter, Thank you very much, bye-bye. I think you`re right, Jane.
Let`s bring in Paul -- Paul Penzone. He is a former sergeant with the Arizona -- Phoenix, Arizona, police department. Paul, talk to me about -- you know, there is the possibility that Judge Perry could say, OK, you do have to do some probation and you have to do it back here in Orlando, or somewhere else.
There`s a lot of worry about the danger that Casey Anthony will be in, no matter where she may do probation. But there are a lot of people that go through the probation system who might be in danger, and they don`t get any special care.
PAUL PENZONE, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: Absolutely. You know, this is a very high-profile case, and she has been exposed at an extreme level. And because of the implications from that case, she`s definitely going to be in some form of jeopardy. I think it`s more from the extremists than actually the public at large. It`s not that they`re going to be happy with her, but for true fears, it`s going to be that extremists.
But let`s be honest. There are a lot of other criminals or those who weren`t convicted who went through similar circumstances. They don`t face these same jeopardies. They don`t get benefits from it. So it`s a very -- it`s kind of a scale. You got to weigh it out and see what you can do to try to insure safety without giving preferential treatment.
DIMOND: Yes. You know, I think about, how in the world will Casey Anthony get to a probation meeting on a regular basis without the media being there. And frankly, some of the people that Jane and I saw outside that courthouse that -- I`m sorry to say that they would really do her harm if they were in the same proximity.
Let`s go to Nawasa. She`s calling in from Kentucky. Hi, there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Diane. This is Nawasa.
DIMOND: How are you? Do you have a question for someone on our panel?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do. Was one of her restrictions not to be in any contact with any kind of felons or people that had been in jail? And since she was in jail and she did have contact, she had wrote letters to other convicts in jail, didn`t that violate her probation right there?
DIMOND: Well, that`s when she was in the county jail. I don`t think so. But Paul, what are the usual restrictions on someone on probation?
PENZONE: Well, it`s -- there`s concurrent consecutive sentencing, where you talk about just straight convictions. When you have that probation element, it seems just -- it doesn`t make sense that you could actually have concurrent sentencing with probation and incarceration. So those things really shouldn`t even (INAUDIBLE) factor.
What`s really, I think, embarrassing to some extent is that a high- profile situation like this, the court system, or those that were responsible for documentation, failed so miserably and caused this to occur...
DIMOND: Right.
PENZONE: ... because it really should have been her sentence begins at the conclusion of the sentence of incarceration.
DIMOND: But normally, when you`re on probation, you have to, as Nawasa asks -- no, you cannot fraternize with other ex-cons. You have to have a job. What else, Paul?
PENZONE: There are certain stipulations, so as you`re going to be drug-tested. You cannot interact with other felons, known felons. You`re going to have maybe even possibly certain hours when you need to be at home and you can be out working. You might have other additional restrictions to ensure that you`re following and abiding by those rules. There`s intensive probation. There`s unsupervised probation and supervised probation. It really depends on what you were convicted for, your criminal history and your threat of violence or danger to society.
DIMOND: And you...
PENZONE: So all the factors are weighed in.
DIMOND: You have to tell them your home address. There`s no moving around from, you know, benefactor to benefactor.
All right, I want to talk about these pictures that have hit the Internet. They`re right here in my hand. There`s a whole bunch of them. I can`t show them to you, unfortunately. But Jane Velez-Mitchell, you`ve looked at these pictures. I`ve studied these pictures, too. To me, it seems like there`s two different women here. Jill, our makeup artist in the back, said, Oh, no, that`s not long hair. That`s extensions on the girl in the gray right here. But I can`t show you.
(LAUGHTER)
DIMOND: Anyway, what did you make of these pictures, Jane? Do you think its her strolling along a street in Ohio?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Diane, you and I both know we look a little different when we have no makeup on and when we do have makeup on.
DIMOND: But we`re used to not seeing her with any makeup.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I will say this. She`s from Ohio, her family. The Anthonys are from Ohio and when she was going to be released, there was a woman who called a local radio station in Orlando and said that she understood that one of the family members from Ohio, an extended family member of Cindy`s, had agreed to take her in. And that was one of many different reports.
But she does have an Ohio connection. And Al Taylor (ph) has also said -- and he`s the guy who, of course, Jose Baez says is a fraud, but he claims that he has been making -- tried to make a deal with Casey Anthony and got a commitment. And he also says that he has information that would lead him to believe that, yes, she is in Ohio. But who knows?
DIMOND: Yes. Who knows? Who knows? We`re going to talk more about these pictures that I cannot show you when we come right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fraud and forgery charges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check fraud charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense was not prepared for that, filed an emergency notion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think they have a leg to stand on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Casey Anthony now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Been a big question for weeks.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I know that`s a tough question, sweetie.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s not a tough question, Dad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Anthony is public enemy number one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice for Caylee! Justice for Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury find the defendant not guilty.
CASEY ANTHONY: Because I lied.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just when she thought the jury had set her free.
BAEZ: She`s not running from this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The judge in the check fraud case wants her in Orlando to serve probation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One year of supervised probation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The crime has been committed and someone needs to pay for it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony forced out of hiding? The countdown begins!
BAEZ: She`s never attempted to run away from this situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony`s defense attorneys filed a motion to quash the new order for Casey`s one-year probation.
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) walking in here. The rules have surely changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) out of jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is faced with a problem. Casey Anthony lies.
CASEY ANTHONY: I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: I don`t know. I am looking at these pictures that have hit the Internet of Casey Anthony, purportedly to be of Casey Anthony walking down the street somewhere in Ohio, a gray top in some of the pictures, a black top in some of the pictures. To me, it looks like two different women. But you know, I`m not the expert and we can`t confirm anything.
Ellie Jostad, a producer here at the NANCY GRACE show -- Ellie, we have talked to some of the Anthony relatives in Ohio today.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.
DIMOND: What did they say?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, we tracked down a couple of relatives there in Ohio, even people that have been speculated on the Internet that she would be staying with because they own businesses in Ohio. The relatives we talked to said, No, she`s not staying with us. Her uncle said, in fact, that he hasn`t talk to her, hasn`t seen her since Thanksgiving 2007, and he said, She wouldn`t be welcome at my home.
DIMOND: Interesting.
JOSTAD: So so far, no relatives admitting that they are putting Casey up at their house.
DIMOND: Now, you know what, Ellie? The dirty little secret is a lot of times, these people that pictures are wanted of will enter into deals with paparazzi. You know, you give me some money, I`ll be in a specific place. You can take my picture. You can make money. You can give me some. Maybe this really is her and this was all staged to get her some money in her pocket.
JOSTAD: Right. Well, and there has been speculation about that. Of course, we don`t know because we don`t know who it is in this picture. But there was a little bit of video posted on line, too, and the thing I thought was odd about it is that she`s standing in the front windows of the store, shopping, kind of lingering in front of the windows. And to me, it just didn`t seem genuine.
DIMOND: Like it was staged.
JOSTAD: It didn`t seem like somebody who was on a shopping trip would be hanging out there.
DIMOND: Interesting. You know, last night on this program, I was the host last night, as well, and we had a discussion about Casey Anthony and what she faces assimilating back into society. You know, here`s the fact. She is without her daughter, her mom, her dad, her brother, nobody`s talking to her. She has no support system except the lawyers.
I got a raft of messages on my Web site, on FaceBook, on Twitter saying that I was being sympathetic to Casey Anthony. Let me set the record straight here. Believe me, as the mother of a daughter myself, I was no such thing. But I am a trained journalist who sees all sides of a story. I`m not a former prosecutor, like Nancy, who I`m humbled to be sitting here for, but I am a journalist who deals in fact.
And the fact of the matter is, she has gone through the criminal justice system. She has been ruled to be innocent. And you know, some people don`t like that fact, but that is the way it is.
I want to bring in now Judge Gino Brogdon. He is a former judge with the Fulton Superior Court in Atlanta and author of "Demons in the Crawlspace." Judge, sometimes it`s just really hard for people to accept verdicts that they don`t agree with.
GINO BROGDON, FMR. JUDGE, FULTON SUPERIOR COURT: That is very true. You know, we have -- we spent a lot of years building this system, and you either embrace the system or you don`t. And a jury has spoken. Whether you like what they said or not, they have spoken, and we`ve got to trust the system.
DIMOND: Yes. Judge, I want to ask you about the situation that Judge Perry finds himself now in. Judge Strickland has for the second time recused himself and sort of, you know, dumped this in Perry`s lap again. It`s kind of tough for him, isn`t it? It`s a tough spot.
BROGDON: It`s very tough on a number of levels. One, it`s politically sensitive to overrule or disagree with a brethren on the bench. Secondly, Judge Strickland has done some things that are rather weird, and Judge Perry now has to clean up the mess.
DIMOND: We`re going to talk about that when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony needs to be back in Orlando.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To answer for her 2010 conviction on check fraud serving...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One year of supervised probation.
CASEY ANTHONY: My head`s going to explode!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey does not, repeat does not have to be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re going to be treating her just like any other offender.
CASEY ANTHONY: Life`s not fair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She will have to report to her probation officer once a month.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then we make random checks at her home, at her place of employment.
CASEY ANTHONY: Are you kidding me!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of the conditions is she has to try to become employed.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`ll have to go have random drug testing.
CASEY ANTHONY: Come on!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we get a threat...
CASEY ANTHONY: Don`t worry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... then we will certainly work with law enforcement and determine the best measure at that time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve got breaking news tonight. Casey Anthony does not have to show up for probation tomorrow!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Yes, but on Friday, her lawyers have to be in court, in Judge Perry`s court, to talk about what the next step is.
We have callers on the line. Let`s go to Milo. He`s in Virginia. Milo? Hello, Milo. Did you hang up? I guess so. Let`s go to Bonnie in Ohio. Hi, Bonnie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi.
DIMOND: Hi. Have you got a question for one of our panelists?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do, or just for Diane in general.
DIMOND: That`s me. Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, this is Diane?
DIMOND: It is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems like Florida is having a lot of trouble bringing Casey to justice, and I`m wondering if maybe we would have to resort to what the feds did with Al Capone. I understand she has a tax bill of over $68,000 from 2008.
DIMOND: Yes. Yes, she did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I`m wondering if that might be a case that she could actually be convicted on.
DIMOND: Well, let`s ask Judge Brogdon about that. Judge, if she cannot pay the $68,000 she owes in tax on money she got from ABC, could they jail her?
BROGDON: They could, but that would be a matter of prosecution decision by the IRS.
DIMOND: So she`d have to go through another trial and be convicted and then perhaps put into jail?
BROGDON: Yes. The reality is, is that she has been punished for the check fraud offense and has been adjudged not guilty for the murder charge. And that`s just something we have to live with, whether you like it or not.
DIMOND: That`s right. And she`s also been convicted of lying to police, for which she served her time.
Let`s go to Adam in California. Hi, Adam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, Diane. Thanks for taking my call.
DIMOND: You bet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I just wanted to -- I had a question regarding Judge Strickland. Would it be possible for him to be disbarred or at least to have his actions reviewed by his peers, you know, for his biased attitude towards this whole Casey Anthony case and...
DIMOND: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) and stepping all over Judge Perry`s toes in a case that he`s no longer involved in?
DIMOND: I hear you. Judge Brogdon, we got to back to you on that. Is that a possibility?
BROGDON: It`s not likely that he would be disbarred. This wouldn`t be a disbarrable offense. But his actions could be reviewed in terms of whether he acted ethically and avoided an appearance of impropriety.
DIMOND: Yes, he did come on the NANCY GRACE show and gave an opinion about the murder verdict when he knew that the check fraud case was still in front of him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blood money off of the death of a 2-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is now getting counseling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must reject it.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve seen this every day on the media for the last month.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does Casey want to begin therapy? And he says, Absolutely.
CASEY ANTHONY: Everything else will figure itself out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The clock is ticking and the big questions of course is she going to show up?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The judge is going to make the call on this. It`s not Stan Strickland. He`s recused himself a second time to Judge Belvin Perry.
CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: Mr. Baez, this is not my first rodeo. I`m not rodeo loco (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is going to end up making the call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It appears to the court you care so little for your child --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Here we go again with Casey Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did not even report her missing.
JEFF ASHTON, PROSECUTOR: People don`t make accidents look like murder.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: You`re safe, honey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since their daughter was acquitted. Because there are concerns. About her safety.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Don`t worry.
LINDA DRANE BURDICK, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: No person would ever make the accidental death of a child look like murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never said it was an accident.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIANE DIMOND, HLN GUEST HOST: Welcome back. I`m Diane Dimond sitting in for Nancy Grace.
So to reset, Casey Anthony does not have to be in court tomorrow on that probation question, but her attorneys will appear before Judge Belvin Perry, yes, the judge from the murder case on Friday.
Now let`s get back to the defense contention that Casey Anthony has already served her time for that check fraud problem that she had. Jose Baez talked about that this morning on the "Today" show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LEAD DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She has completed the terms of probation. Had she have done something in the jail that would have violated her probation, she would have had a probation violation and had to serve time for that violation.
So she was exposed to probation, she completed it, a probation officer actually came out and met with her, they continued to monitor her.
I live in the United States of America, where someone is accused of a crime and you have your day in court. And if a jury finds you not guilty, that should be the end of it. But unfortunately in this e-lynching type day that we live in, that`s not possible.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: The e-lynching day we live in. That`s a good phrase. We`re going to hear it again, I`ll bet. That`s Casey Anthony`s lead defense attorney Jose Baez on NBC`s "Today" show this morning talking about that amended probation order.
Let`s bring in the lawyers here. Susan Moss is a child advocate and a family law attorney and Alan Ripka and Dwayne Gates are also defense attorneys.
All right, everybody, jump in here. Is this double jeopardy? Is there any way in heck, you think, that Casey Anthony should have to have a year of supervised probation?
Susan Moss, you must have a rhyme ready for this one.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, I do. But I`m going to pull out my hair because everyone has gotten this legal analysis wrong.
DIMOND: Tell me.
MOSS: Judge Strickland`s order was -- his oral order was quite clear, after release, she gets a probationary year. OK, that`s what he said. If the Department of Corrections screwed it up and they got it wrong, well, judge versus Department of Corrections, judge wins.
If you got the robe, you get to rule the globe, and I think it`s only fair because, you know, Ohio had to give back LeBron, at the very least, you know, Florida should have to take Casey back.
(LAUGHTER)
DIMOND: All right. Let`s bring in to Alan Ripka and Dwayne Gates. What do you guys think about this? It wasn`t really the Department of Corrections, they were going by this order that was erroneously dropped the words upon release. And so they thought she was on probation, right?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: As they should have. When you say erroneously said, obviously when there is an order and it indicates something, people are supposed to follow it. But more importantly, probation is for a purpose. It`s supposed to help people that are released from jail acclimate back to society, to give them weekly visits, to keep them on the right road.
And that`s what should be most important here. Especially for someone like Casey Anthony who needs that kind of supervision to stay straight and narrow.
DIMOND: Right. And now, Dwayne, I`m looking at this probation report, it`s a letter, rather, to Casey Anthony, saying hey, congratulations you`ve done your probation, good luck with your future.
That`s got to be front and center this Friday when her attorneys go before Judge Belvin Perry, right?
DWAYNE GATES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. This is one of the craziest things I have ever seen. I mean the George -- the judge`s original order was clear, and she`s right that the -- when the judge says, from the bench, and makes an order orally, that order is binding.
(CROSSTALK)
DIMOND: Does that preclude what`s written? Does that overrule what`s written?
GATES: Well, hang on, I`m getting there.
DIMOND: OK.
GATES: And what -- and it does, because what the clerk writes is supposed to be notes from what the judge said. And when there`s a conflict, you go back and you get the record, what the judge said stands.
Now the problem is -- the problem lies in that Casey Anthony believed she was on probation, she was told she was on probation. They acted like she was on probation. And if Jose Baez is correct in that they could have violated her if she violated her probation while in the jail, she faced jeopardy and she can`t face the jeopardy twice.
What I can`t figure out is judges very rarely come back and clarify their orders.
DIMOND: Yes.
GATES: What`s called (INAUDIBLE), meaning just on their own. Normally when this happens, somebody disagrees with the order and they file a motion with the court asking them to do this. This judge just out of the blue just decides that he wants to try to make his order enforceable.
DIMOND: Yes, well --
GATES: And I think the only reason he did that was to be vindictive.
DIMOND: And -- well, this is Judge Stan Strickland who also came on this program and talked about being stunned at the murder verdict. You know there`s something usual about this guy.
Let`s bring in Patricia Saunders. She`s a clinical psychologist.
Patricia, great to see you again. What -- a lot of people don`t want to talk about what might be in Casey Anthony`s mind right now. They want to keep the focus on Caylee. I understand that but what do you think is going through Casey Anthony`s mind? She`s free, maybe she`s not free, she`s out of Orlando, she could come back. What`s she going through right now?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, Diane, it`s not a place that I would want to be inside Casey`s mind.
(LAUGHTER)
DIMOND: Yes.
SAUNDERS: But, you know, William Weis was the psychologist, one of the defense psychologists who examined her. And he -- and Nancy interviewed him. He said some very important things about this lady`s head, one that was there no evidence of mental illness, no thought disorder, no mood disorder. Rules out bipolar which some people have been saying.
What he did say, and it was technical because it was about psychological tests, was that he only ruled out anti-social personality disorder because there was one provision that he couldn`t check off. That means that the majority of traits for anti-social personality disorder were positive.
DIMOND: So you tell me she`s a perfectly normal person.
SAUNDERS: No, I`m telling you that she`s a psychopath without the diagnosis. So psychopaths don`t learn, they don`t experience emotions the way as relatively normal people do. Their level of anxiety is extremely low, so I think that she`s probably looking at this as an exciting time in her life for new beginnings, I don`t think she`s afraid.
DIMOND: That`s have interesting, Patricia, because I wanted to talk to you about these pictures, all these pictures that I can`t show you, we`re still trying to get the light and signal (INAUDIBLE). But would Casey Anthony, the Casey Anthony that you think you know -- would she be -- if she`s in such grave danger as her attorneys say, would she be out walking around all by herself here as we see in these pictures that I cannot show you?
SAUNDERS: Two comments. One, I don`t think that she would consider herself in grave danger because of denial and her grandiosity, and she`s not going to take it seriously. And two, I suspect that she`s still surrounded by a cadre of Baez and company who are protecting her for their own interests. She`s a cash cow.
DIMOND: Yes. You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, I`m looking at these pictures and I`m hearing what Patricia Saunders is saying, and I`m thinking, you know, these could be real and they could be staged so she gets some money in her possibility. What do you think?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": Well, listen, she had said she was going into treatment and the timing of that, purportedly anyway, according to sources -- reportedly, the timing was very suspicious because it was right after the big three networks, ABC, NBC and CBS had came out and in various way indicated that they were not interested in doing a deal with her and weren`t going to pay her money for her first big interview.
So isn`t it interesting that after that, we get the announcement that, hey, she`s going to get therapy because she understands that her reaction to her daughter`s accidental drowning was inappropriate. It could have been a face saving measure because she didn`t get that big payday.
DIMOND: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is all speculation.
DIMOND: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But eventually she`s going to need money to put food in her mouth and maybe that`s the way to get it, from the paparazzi. Let`s face it, it`s been done before.
DIMOND: Oh, yes, you and I both know that. Well, maybe the therapy she`s getting is this shopping therapy we`re seeing in pictures there.
Let`s take a pause here. Tonight we remember South Dakota Police Officer James McCandless, killed in the line of duty. Twenty-eight-year- old McCandless gunned down Tuesday after a suspect opened fire on a group of officers in Rapid City. Two other officers also injured in that shooting.
McCandless, a six-year veteran, was recently engaged. He just bought a home and he was starting his dream far.
Officer James McCandless, a true American hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF STEVE ALLENDER, CHIEF OF POLICE, RAPID CITY, SOUTH DAKOTA: He obtained his masters degree in public administration a couple of years ago. He told me that this among other things were in preparation to be chief of police someday when I retire.
He was a very bright guy, very capable and probably could have made that goal a reality.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Judge Stan Strickland ordered Casey Anthony back to Orlando.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I tried that, negative.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Barring any stays, we anticipate her reporting tomorrow morning.
CASEY ANTHONY: Hold on.
BAEZ: It`s insane.
PERRY: OK, let the record reflect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state issued today --
BAEZ: I am literally at a standstill.
JUDGE STAN STRICKLAND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER JUDGE: We`re really having a tough time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There you heard it, breaking news.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She will not need to report tomorrow.
CASEY ANTHONY: I mean I`m not obviously going anywhere right now.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her attorneys say they can neither confirm nor deny her whereabouts.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Where is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you all come from? Ohio? You need to go back.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony`s uncle who lives in Ohio, "I haven`t heard from Casey and I don`t know where she is. We were shocked at the verdict."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To the charge of first-degree murder, not guilty.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: Welcome back, everybody, I`m Diane Dimond sitting in for Nancy Grace tonight.
Let`s go right back out to the phones, Steve is calling in from Tennessee. Hi, Steve.
STEVE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Diane. I sure do appreciate you taking my call.
DIMOND: You bet.
STEVE: I have been trying to get through because I have two question, real quick questions I`d like to ask.
DIMOND: OK. All right.
STEVE: First I would like to know, are they ever going to try to find out who the murderer or murderers are of this little baby? I mean it`s like nothing else has been said. I mean --
DIMOND: Good question.
STEVE: Do they have it --
DIMOND: Good question, Steve.
STEVE: And one more question that I have is --
DIMOND: OK.
STEVE: This private investigator that supposedly had worked for Mr. Baez one time and then went to work for her parents, on the day that he was out in the woods supposedly on the phone with a psychic, could they not go back and check his phone records to see maybe if he might have been on the phone with someone from the defense team?
DIMOND: Those are two good questions. Thanks, Steve. Now hang up and you can listen to the answer.
Let`s go out to the attorneys on this, Susan, Alan, Dwayne. What about justice for Caylee? I mean justice has been served, I suppose, but what about justice for Caylee? Will they ever go back and try to find the murderer?
Susan, what do you think?
MOSS: If you ask me, there ain`t no maybe, this woman killed this baby. They`re not going back to look for another murder suspect. They believe it was Casey, and that she did it.
DIMOND: Yes. Dwayne, do you think that`s it? No further to do about this?
GATES: Well, I think they`ll get the same team that`s looking for the true murderers in the O.J. Simpson case. And maybe they can get together and go out and do some research.
DIMOND: Let me go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell on the PI question.
Dominic Casey at one point in November of 2000 -- golly, I don`t even remember the years anymore. But in November, about a month before the skeleton of the child was found, was in the field on the phone with a psychic, looking for a body, but you know, Jane, and I know, Jane, that there was a contention that he was actually on the phone with Jose Baez and Baez allegedly was saying if you find the body, call me first.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there`s a couple of things. I actually talked to the other private investigator, Jim Hoover, who videotaped Dominic Casey and went there.
DIMOND: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we walked around that area. And I asked him the very same question, I said, everybody suspects that it was somebody from the family, the Anthony camp, somewhere that led them. And he said, look, there was a psychic, we sent her a teddy bear or Cindy sent her a teddy bear. She came back and she told them to look in this area.
DIMOND: But to Steve`s question --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: However it could have been a cover.
DIMOND: I see.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In other words even if -- even if he`s on the phone with the psychic, if he`s got other information, what a brilliant cover to be going down there with the psychic on the phone knowing that you`re really looking based on somebody else pointing you in that direction. Additionally, he had a number of different cell phones, according to Jim Hoover.
DIMOND: That`s right. That`s right. And you know to Steve`s question, can they check his phone records?
Steve, I guarantee you they checked his phone records.
Let`s go out to Kay, she`s in Kansas, I think she`s got a question. Hi, Kay.
KAY, CALLER FROM KANSAS: Hi, I`m so glad to be here.
Du I`m glad you`re here, too.
(LAUGHTER)
KAY: I quick comment, you`ve been saying about those pictures you can`t show us.
DIMOND: Right.
KAY: And she`s got a hat on it -- from Ohio?
DIMOND: Right.
KAY: That doesn`t necessarily mean she`s in Ohio. You can buy those anywhere.
DIMOND: Dr. (INAUDIBLE) -- you know what, we were talking about that with the NANCY GRACE producers and the staff here. Those pictures could have been taken at an Old Navy shop in Hollywood, California, or Pasadena or any other place, and the O hat could have come from anywhere.
You`re right, Kay.
Do you think those -- do you think those are pictures of Casey?
KAY: Well, I looked at them on the Web, you can do that.
DIMOND: Right.
KAY: I maybe shouldn`t be able to say that, but a lot of the stuff does look like her, but, you know, who knows? Whatever, right?
DIMOND: Yes.
KAY: My question is, I got in on the middle of stuff and I know that there`s a hearing on Friday, but I didn`t hear -- does she have to be there Friday?
DIMOND: Good questions for people who are just tuning in.
No, Kay, she does not.
Here`s the deal, to recap real quick. Stan Strickland has recused himself. The check fraud case is now back in Judge Belvin Perry`s court, he`s the one who`s holding the hearing on Friday, and Casey Anthony does not have to be there, only her attorneys.
OK. One more time out to the attorneys here really quick. What`s your gut feeling? Let`s go round robin here. Do you think she`s going to be time served, no probation? What do you think, Dwayne?
GATES: I don`t think she`ll have to serve the probation. I think they`re going to find that although the law is probably in favor of her doing the probation, but I don`t see how they can make her do it.
DIMOND: Yes. Alan, what`s your prediction?
RIPKA: I think they`re going to make her do it. I think that they`re going to want it, I think the DA`s office is going to want it. I think they`re going to want her to violate it so they can put her back in jail and that`s going to be their revenge.
DIMOND: Susan, do you think that there`s any chance that they`ll make her do that probation if in fact they make her do probation. And so they`ll allow her to do it in some other state?
MOSS: It`s possible but I think they`re going to make her do that probation. Let`s bring out this analysis. If Jose Baez is right, then Casey violated probation each and every night, not a single night or day did she look for employment, every single day she hung out and spoke and fraternized with known felons --
DIMOND: In prison.
MOSS: She did not go every five days and check in with her -- with her parole officer. There was no a single drug test. She violated probation each and every night, and if that`s the way Jose wants to go, I think that there should be an action for a probation violation.
DIMOND: Paul Penzone, you`re our police specialist here this evening. If she were to be put on probation, do you agree that she`d probably muck it up?
PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: Absolutely. I don`t think -- you know, I think you had the psychologist speaking earlier about her behavioral patterns.
DIMOND: Patricia.
PENZONE: I don`t think she`s going to help herself. Yes. And she did a great job analyzing it.
Look at those videos. I want to touch on this for a second. And I can`t confirm 100 percent if it`s her or not. But there`s no doubt in my mind, that is staged video, just the behavioral pattern, the way she never looks into the camera, looks off to the side. So whoever that was, whether it was her or someone else, it was a staged video from my opinion.
DIMOND: Yes.
Patricia Saunders, real quick, if that is Casey Anthony in that video, in those pictures, do you think that she thinks that she`s safe traipsing around solo?
SAUNDERS: Yes. I think she does. Very much, Diane. I think this woman thinks that she can lie and squirm her way out of any kind of situation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey Anthony was released a free woman.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: VIP treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She may have toasted to her freedom with a beer.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She is carrying a half-full Corona beer bottle.
CINDY ANTHONY: Something tragic happens. We don`t know how we`re going to handle it. I don`t know.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
DIMOND: As we close tonight, I`d like to talk about decorum. I would like to talk about the attorney Cheney Mason. This is a man who apparently cannot help himself with a one-finger salute.
Drew Petrimoulx is a local reporter there in Orlando.
Drew, you actually saw the latest one-finger salute. Tell us about that.
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Yes. Well, Cheney Mason was walking across the street. His office is really right next to the courthouse. He was walking across the street, and somebody drove by in a car.
Yes, I didn`t hear exactly what they said, but they yelled something out at him, and he gave them the middle finger as they drove by in the car. Of course, we saw that happen when he -- right after the verdict was read, and he was in that restaurant.
DIMOND: Right.
PETRIMOULX: Gave some people -- that were looking in the finger, too. So he does get animated at times. We`ve known that about Cheney Mason for as long as he`s been practicing in Orlando.
DIMOND: You know, I met his wife during the trial. And what a class act. What a beautifully put together woman. And I can`t imagine she`s very happy with his behavior in this regard.
Judge Gino, I want to bring you back in here. Tell me about a lawyer`s antics like that. He`s also called a judge recently stupid. That`s noticed by every judge in Orlando, isn`t it?
JUDGE GINO BROGDON, FMR. JUDGE, FULTON SUPERIOR COURT AND TRIAL LAWYER, POPE, MCGLAMRY, AUTHOR OF "DEMONS IN THE CRAWLSPACE": Yes, it is. And it`s very risky behavior. Because if you want to be treated like a professional, you have to act like one. And if you expect judges and colleagues and clients to treat you professionally, then you can`t be doing one-finger salutes to folks regardless of what they do.
DIMOND: You know -- you know, your honor, this is an older gentleman. He may just retire now. But that also is going to reflect on Jose Baez, isn`t it? He`s part of the team.
BROGDON: Yes. You know, unfortunately, guilt by association applies to lawyer teams, too. So I`m sure Jose Baez is not real happy about that.
DIMOND: Yes. No kidding. Thanks a lot, Judge.
Tonight let`s stop here and remember Marine Lance Corporal Abraham Simpson. Just 18 years old, from Chino, California, killed in Iraq. Simpson was awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon and the National Defense Service medal. An Eagle Scout with a strong faith.
He loved missionary work in San Jose del Cabo. He also loved backpacking in the mountains. His dream was to join the LAPD. He`s remembered as a friend everyone could count on. He leaves behind his parents, Jim and Maria, and his brothers David and Paul. Paul, by the way, is also serving in the marines.
Abraham Simpson, an American hero.
I want to thank all of our guests for being here with me tonight. I`m Diane Diamond, sitting in for Nancy Grace. See you right back here tomorrow night, 8:00 Eastern sharp.
Stay safe, everyone.
END
