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Nancy Grace

Polygamist Leader Jeffs Found Guilty of Sex With Children

Aired August 04, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty on both counts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warren Jeffs is guilty of sexual assault against a 14-year-old child and aggravated sexual assault against a 12-year-old child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tough, swift justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a great deal of incest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The jury was so convinced, if not repulsed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: God bless Texas for refusing to bury the evidence!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To the rest of the world, they might look like children, but to the polygamists at this west Texas compound, they are allegedly something else, wives and mothers, some as young as 13 or 14.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A picture of Warren Jeffs kissing a girl 12 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No force. No force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But do women aged 16 and younger marry out here? Is that common.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that the truth will be kept from them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ain`t seen nothing yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST: And breaking news tonight -- 80 wives and more than 100 children. He was once one of the FBI`s Most Wanted, polygamist cult leader Warren Jeffs, Jeffs on trial, accused of sexually assaulting little girls as young as 12 years old, luring them into so- called "spiritual marriages," then raping his child brides, the jury in shock, some in tears as gut-wrenching audiotapes are played in court of him raping a 12-year-old girl in front of three of his wives. Tonight, we have a verdict, guilty.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. We are taking your calls live. A verdict is just in in the trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs. For the breaking news, let`s go live to the scene, where CNN national correspondent Gary Tuchman is standing by live. Gary, tell us how it all went down.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rita, it was the strangest trial I`ve ever covered in my life because Warren Jeffs was his own attorney, and frankly, he acted totally bizarre. In his 30-minute closing argument -- he had 30 minutes and that was his time limit -- he said absolutely nothing for 24 minutes. He stared at the judge. The court was just completely quiet. And at the 24 minute mark, he looked to his right and he stared down all 12 of the jurors. And then he said four words -- those were his only four words in the 30 minutes, "I am at peace." And that was the end of the trial.

The jury looked intimidated, to be honest with you. I don`t know if he ever would have been found not guilty, but that wasn`t a good move, creeping out the jury. Three hours and forty-five minutes, the jury was out. They gave their verdict form to the judge. Judge says, You`re guilty of both counts, and that was the end of the trial. And now the sentencing phase has begun, Rita.

COSBY: You know, Beth, Gary was just talking about the mood in the courtroom. This guy -- by the way, I was in Las Vegas where he was arrested in 2006, and I remember there, he was just sort of stoic, walks in defiant. What was his mood through this whole thing, Beth? Beth Karas, correspondent of "In Session."

BETH KARAS, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Yes. Hi. Yes. He was actually - - hi, Rita. He was actually very stoic throughout. He did not show emotion. He would speak very, oh, haltingly, pausing many times. And in between questions or comments, there was sometimes four-minute pauses. He is a little bit hunched over. He doesn`t rotate his neck, so he`d look over like this and like that. And it was just kind of creepy. I think that`s the word that Gary Tuchman just used. But he really didn`t show any emotion. When he said, "I am peace" to the jury, one has to wonder if he expected this verdict.

COSBY: Yes, certainly seems like it. Christi Paul, what a disgusting figure. Here he is now convicted -- convicted of raping -- again, everyone -- a 12-year-old girl and a 14-year-old girl. And apparently, prosecutors are saying this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Christi Paul, host of "In Session" on truTV, what was the sort of mood around the courthouse, if you will, justice served?

CHRISTI PAUL, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: I think absolutely, because there are a lot of former FLDS folks here who have been waiting to see how this was going to come down.

And the big question, of course, now is, what does this mean for the FLDS community? Will people still see him as the prophet who is now a martyr, or is some of his power finally being diluted? I mean, he went from prophet to rapist in a matter of 10 seconds when they read those guilty verdicts.

So definitely a lot of people around here claiming this a victory for the children, specifically, of the FLDS community. But what it means to that community is yet to be seen.

COSBY: And Christi, good analogy, prophet to rapist.

Flora Jessop escaped the polygamist sect at the age of 15. Flora, you and I have been talking for years. What was your reaction when this came?

FLORA JESSOP, ESCAPED SECT WHEN SHE WAS 15 (via telephone): I`m just so pleased that is finally going to be locked up and put away, like he should have been years ago. You know, I`m so proud of Texas and the dedicated prosecutors and attorneys and the Texas Rangers and the judge that devoted so much of their time and effort to this case and proved that the victims do have a voice. That was so important to all of us that have been victimized by the FLDS.

COSBY: Did you have tears in your eyes, Flora? I know how passionate you have been to see justice served finally in this case.

JESSOP: I`m just so pleased. I don`t know, I -- you know, sitting in that courtroom, listening to those tapes was very difficult. It took me back. And I realized because the same language Warren Jeffs used on those victims was the same language my dad used with me when he molested me, and I just realized how systemic the abuse is in the FLDS and in polygamy and that we have got to, as a nation, stand up and put our foot down and say, Enough is enough, no more.

COSBY: Absolutely. Alyssa Wall (ph), former sect member, you also testified in a former case -- and I know that -- and I know you`re going to -- we`re going to have her, actually, at 8:30 on.

But flora, you`ve talked very publicly about all of these cases and all of what happened. Is this just -- there must be such a sense of victory now, Flora.

JESSOP: There is a sense of victory, but it`s not done, Rita. It is so not done. There are still tens of thousands of children that are still suffering inside the FLDS. And putting one man away does not stop the abuse. It helps, but it doesn`t stop.

And you know, I want to say Alyssa Wall is a rock star. She is amazing. Without Alyssa having the courage to stand up in the first place, we would have never have been able to put Warren Jeffs behind prison bars.

COSBY: Absolutely. We`re going to have also -- we`re going to have Alyssa coming up in just about 30 minutes from now. In fact, she`s one of the people who testified and said that Warren Jeffs was raping her and he begged -- she begged him to stop. Can you imagine the testimony...

JESSOP: Yes.

COSBY: ... how emotional, incredible stuff, Flora. And you saw it firsthand, right?

JESSOP: Oh, yes. You know, it`s just over and over and over again with not one child, not two children, but hundreds of children over the years.

And you know, Warren was doing this not only -- and it`s important for people to remember that Warren was not only sexually abusing young girls, he was sexually abusing young boys, too. And you know, he abused his nephew, who never sought justice in the state of Utah for that. And you know, Texas has finally vindicated every victim that has voiced their pain and been turned away from justice.

COSBY: You bet. Christi Paul, host of "In Session" on truTV -- Christi, one of the things, the last thing that the jury heard was an audiotape. Tell us about this audiotape.

PAUL: Well, they had to have headphones on. We in the courtroom did not. So to be honest with you, we didn`t hear it as clearly, probably, as they did. It sounded a little distorted to us.

But quite honestly, it was just stomach-turning. It was a lot of heavy breathing. At one point, we heard something to the extent (SIC) of, Loosen the ties, or, Hold her down, or something to that extent.

I think what was most disturbing and really shook our nerves was when we heard him -- and he -- he said her name. He said the victim`s name in full a couple times during this tape, which obviously helped very much in terms of this conviction. But he said -- he said her name and he said, How do you feel?

And in this tiny, little, meek voice of a little, little girl -- it was weak, it was meek, and she just said, I feel fine, thank you. And to think that she`s being so polite, she says, I feel fine, thank you, thank you, as this man is raping her -- I think that was really indicative of the control that he had of these children from a very young age, for her to be able to react like that to something, at the end of the day, that`s really so explosive.

COSBY: Oh, it`s so explosive. And Beth Karas, as you hear this -- you`ve covered a lot of trials, my friend. What was your reaction to hearing this audio? And you can imagine, this -- Loosen the ties -- this is raping a 12-year-old girl. It makes me sick to hear it. I can`t imagine what that was like, even as a reporter, hearing that, Beth.

KARAS: That`s right. And we`re only human, you know? I have to be an impartial journalist, but I`m only human. And Rita, it really was some of the most disturbing evidence I`ve ever had to listen to in a courtroom. And that is because this young child was conditioned to believe that she was really blessed to have the prophet as her husband doing this to her, and that it is right.

Now, what we`ve just learned is that in this punishment phase that will start with testimony in the morning will be among the various categories of evidence, evidence of Warren Jeffs` 78 illegal marriages. He had one lawful wife and 78 other ones. Twenty-four of them were children under the age of 17 -- 24. So we`re going to hear details about his child brides.

And there will be evidence of six other alleged illegal sexual acts. Now, the prosecution has to prove all of these extrinsic acts, and there are tons of them, beyond a reasonable doubt. These are acts that they didn`t have jurisdiction over. They might have happened in Utah or Arizona or Colorado or maybe elsewhere in Texas. But they still have to prove them beyond a reasonable doubt.

So there`ll be six other acts, probably other recordings. There`ll be witnesses on the stand, eyewitnesses to some of these acts. There`s going to be testimony about breaking up 300 families, reassigning wives to other men, kicking men out, saying they`re unworthy, kicking boys out so there will be more young girls for the old men to marry.

A lot of stuff is going to come out. The nation, the world is going to see the extent of the perversion of Warren Jeffs since he took over in 2002 upon his father`s death.

COSBY: And it`s just so sick when you hear all of this. Gary Tuchman, CNN national correspondent, you`ve covered a lot of cases, too. What was your mood through this whole thing? And as you brought up the closing arguments -- this man, what was his attitude through all of this? And what is your personal feeling? It is sickening, a 12-year-old, a 14- year-old, and now we`re hearing from Beth this is just the tip of the iceberg.

TUCHMAN: Well, right, and I think what Beth is saying is so important because we`ve really never known how many wives he`s had and how many are under 18, how many weddings of young children he`s presided over.

One more piece of information that Beth had told me about earlier that she just in court a short time ago, that he`s presided over 67 underage marriages, in addition to being married to 24 underage girls. So it`s all very sad and pitiful.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

WARREN JEFFS, FLDS LEADER: Many young men, when they receive their first wife who is just so untrained, and the woman, if she`s not careful, will be overbearing and always ask permission for what she wants. And ladies, build up your husband by being submissive. That`s how you will give your children the success. You will want your children to be obedient and submissive to righteous living.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JEFFS: Realizing happiness is only being a part and a strength to your husband, get close to him.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The verdict is in in the sexual assault trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warren Jeffs did not say a thing for closing arguments. He looked at those jurors and just one by one stared at them. Every single one of those jurors stared right back at him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you Warren Jeffs?

JEFFS: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten women and two men deliberated for more than three hours today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s been found guilty on both counts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty on both counts, sexual assault against a 14-year-old child and aggravated sexual assault against a 12-year-old child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both of whom he was spiritually married to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you come to the state of Texas and think you can get away with sexually assaulting young kids, you will be brought to swift justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. The verdict just coming in, polygamist leader Warren Jeffs found, went from polygamist to now convicted rapist, convicted on two counts of sexual assault with a 12- year-old girl and also a 14-year-old girl. Justice now served for this cult leader, and now believed to be involved in more -- as we`re hearing, possibly hundreds and hundreds of other cases.

They`re into the penalty phase now, and one of the things, Christi Paul, of course, host of "In Session" on truTV -- one of the things we talked about, this audiotape. It is so disturbing to think that there`s actually an audiotape that was played there for the jury. Obviously, it made them hurry up and come down with swift justice in this case. But hearing a 12-year-old girl being raped, while apparently, what, three of his wives are in the room?

PAUL: Yes. And a lot of people are calling, you know, outside the courtroom for those three women to be prosecuted, as well. And that`s one of the aspects of this that is -- we`ve heard a lot of the last couple of weeks, people saying you`re not going to be able to get in there and fracture this cult, as they call it, until you start prosecuting some of the wives who are complicit in these acts of handing over their children to men who are old enough to be their grandfathers.

COSBY: You know, one of the other things -- by the way, that audiotape -- apparently, it was in the car when he was arrested way back in 2006.

Leslie Seppinni, clinical psychologist, what kind of a man drives around with an audiotape of him raping a 12-year-old girl?

LESLIE SEPPINNI, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: A predator, an outright predator, a person who`s also a pedophile who is out there looking around, getting off on it while he`s in his car, thinking about it, imagining what it was like, going back over and over it in his head until it has it again.

COSBY: Well, and certainly a big-time predator. And again, we`re hearing, as we were just hearing from Gary and the others, that, apparently, he presided over 67 other marriages, apparently married 24 other children, again, under the age of 17. This is rape. It is just shocking to hear the cases go on and on.

Let`s go to the callers. We`ve got Judy from Illinois who`s on the line. Judy, what`s your question tonight?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Rita. Thank you for taking my call. These men and women that participate in these vile, evil acts, watching this, can they be prosecuted, or will they be prosecuted? Something has to happen here.

COSBY: I agree. Let`s go to Gloria Allred, victims` rights advocate. Gloria, do you think that now the attorney general`s go after -- there`s apparently three of his wives on this tape. Someone`s, I think, holding her down. She`s also being bound. What more evidence do you need to go after these people?

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, it is possible that the attorney general will go after the women. I don`t know that the attorney general will exercise his or her discretion to do that, however.

COSBY: Do you think he should?

ALLRED: But I do...

COSBY: Gloria, do you think he should?

ALLRED: Do I -- well, I think, you know, you`ve cut off the head of the snake. That`s Warren Jeffs. And my guess is that that will send a message, and I hope that it won`t happen again.

By the way, I want to say to the women, you know, submission is dangerous to your health. Your subordination is dangerous not only to your welfare but also to that of your children. So that is the evil within the community. Children should not be used as breed cows.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

JEFFS: (INAUDIBLE) wives, realizing happiness is only being a part and a strength to your husband get close to him. Confide in him.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Verdict is in, and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty on both counts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had deliberated only about three hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was looking at the jurors as they filed it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So Warren Jeffs is guilty of sexual assault against a 14-year-old child and aggravated sexual assault against a 12- year-old child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That punishment phase will begin shortly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even if he doesn`t get the maximum, some judges are inclined to send a message, and as a result of that, they will give you a term of years that are just -- I mean, you could never live that long.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So he could now be facing 99 years in prison.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And again, breaking news tonight. This is Rita Cosby, in for Nancy Grace. Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs convicted on now two counts of sexual assault, raping a 12-year-old girl and also having a sexual assault, raping also a 14-year-old, even having a child with her when she`s 15 years old. But now the jury coming back after less than four hours -- guilty.

What does it do to the cult? And also, what happens now? Who else may come forward? Let`s take your calls. Let`s go to Diana from Maryland who`s on the line. Diana?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Good evening, Rita.

COSBY: Good evening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are you?

COSBY: Good evening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to find out, because he acted on his own behalf, is the appeals process different? And if not, what type of idiot judge would touch this with a 100-foot pole?

COSBY: Great question. Let`s go to Peter Odom, defense attorney. Let`s unleash the lawyers -- and also Zahra Umansky. But let`s go to Peter first. Peter, could there be grounds for appeal that he chose to defend himself?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right, and he would not have been allowed to choose to defend himself without a very thorough questioning by the judge, during which the judge would have made sure that it was his own decision. I will tell you that the effect it`ll have on the appeal is it will make it virtually impossible for this verdict to be overturned.

It`s not uncommon for people in Mr. Jeffs`s position to fire their lawyers because the lawyers won`t present a ridiculous defense. Here, Mr. Jeffs`s defense was that he was entitled to do these things to these children by God. His lawyer probably just didn`t want to present that defense, and so Mr. Jeffs fired him, used that defense at trial, and well, we see what the result was.

COSBY: Zahra Umansky, how do you now save this guy`s life? Now it starts, the penalty phase. They just wrapped up a little bit ago. They`re going to continue tomorrow. How do you make this guy a sympathetic figure? What can he do to the jury to say, Don`t lock me up the rest of my life?

ZAHRA UMANSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Rita, the judge is going offer him an opportunity to have an attorney again at this penalty phase. One more chance, do you want some help? If he was smart, he`d take the judge up on that. If he chooses not to, well, the next step will be offer some mitigation, such as maybe it happened to him as a child. Maybe he was molested by his father, anything in mitigation to try to help himself out.

But Rita, I don`t believe he`s going to do that. I believe he feels he didn`t do anything wrong.

COSBY: Yes, and that -- and that`s...

UMANSKY: He`s not remorseful at all.

COSBY: ... the problem! Zahra, you hit it on the head. This guy so far has not denied that he had sex with these girls. He thinks it`s OK!

UMANSKY: Exactly.

COSBY: He`s a sick pervert! You know, Gloria Allred, what do you do, real quick? Is there anything that he can do to spare his life at this point behind bars?

ALLRED: I don`t think so, and I don`t think he can even try because the religious defense is not going to work for sentencing at all, anymore than it did before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is going to be probably martyred by his own religion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He violated the trust of every one of these members in this community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He needs to be removed from the streets for a long time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": The verdict is in, in the sexual assault trial of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Guilty on both counts.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Taking these two teenagers as his brides and having sex with him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The complaint that the state has is they felt these children were in danger of being forced into marriage at age 16 and younger. The girls.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What we saw in the trial is really nothing compared to what we`re going to see in the penalty phase.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Warren Jeffs is guilty of sexual assault against a 14-year-old child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No force. No force.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And aggravated sexual assault against a 12- year-old child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is about children who are in imminent risk of harm.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: We heard rumors of everything including group sex, allegations that children were drowned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You ain`t seen nothing yet.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

RITA COSBY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST, AUTHOR OF "QUIET HERO": And polygamist leader Warren Jeffs now convicted, the verdict is coming down just a short bit ago, under less than four hours, the jury came back, after hearing a very emotional, horrible audiotape of a 12-year-old girl being raped by this man. Well, now the jury came back swiftly and said guilty on two counts of sexual assault.

There was a lot of evidence in this case in addition to that audiotape.

Let`s go to Beth Karas, correspondent of "In Session" on truTV.

Beth, tell us about some of the -- there was some DNA evidence and also a lot of documents, too, in this case.

BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Yes, the documents corroborated dates that things happened and locations. They were really critical corroborating evidence.

But the DNA relates to the victim who was under 17. The sexual assault versus the aggravated sexual assault. She was 14 when he married her, 15 when she actually had the baby -- or it was conceived. The DNA comes from her, from him, and the baby they had between them.

So there was no baby with the 12-year-old, although I have spoken to some who believe there may have been a child who just authorities could never match up. But don`t forget, Warren Jeffs only was married to her for a month before he got arrested. That tape recording that the jury heard was three weeks before he was arrested outside of Las Vegas.

He snuck on to the ranch here in Texas when he was on the lam, on the FBI`s 10 most wanted list. They didn`t have DNA in that case. They don`t have cooperating victim. They had to prove sexual assaults through other evidence.

Typically when you have a rape, a statutory rape or any kind of rape, you have a victim to testify. The state didn`t have that here.

COSBY: You know, you bring up a great point.

Dr. Gwenn O`Keefe, pediatrician and founder of pediatricsnow.com. You know, Dr. O`Keefe, when you hear these stories -- and it is, it`s, you know, a victim of violence, domestic violence, they so rarely come forward.

Talk about the effects on a child and you`re hearing the case of a girl as young as 12, there are a number of cases of 14 and 15-year-olds. What effect does that do on a child who really it is a child at the age of 12, 14, 15.

DR. GWENN O`KEEFE, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN, FOUNDER & CEO, PEDIATRICSNOW.COM: Well, Rita, the effects are profound and very long term. Especially in a situation like this where there`s a complete betrayal of a community. So there`s a lack of trust, a lack of relationship bonding.

These kids are going to need a lot of help learning to not just trust people for intimacy in a regular relationship. But also a physical relationship. This will be a long ongoing process to get these children at all ages to feel good about themselves moving forward.

COSBY: Absolutely. And, you know, our prayers are with them.

Elissa Wall, former sect member, you testified against Jeffs in another case, you`re also the author of "Stolen Innocence."

First of all, I know that you were abused as a child in the sect. What is your reaction to the verdict that came down? Did you ever think this day would come?

ELISSA WALL, FORMER FLDS MEMBER, TESTIFIED AGAINST WARREN JEFFS IN 2007 TRIAL, AUTHOR, "STOLEN INNOCENCE": Really, this has been a long day - - this has been a long time coming. And it`s a good day. It`s a day of relief, and really, it`s a miracle in my eyes. It`s been emotional. An emotional journey for anyone who is really involved and has been victimized by Warren Jeffs and his control.

COSBY: You know I want to ask you that, because what does this say? I think this sends a very powerful and important message to perverts, to rapists, to anyone out there that -- whatever state it`s going to be in, justice will be served and victims have a voice.

WALL: Absolutely. Through this whole entire journey that I`ve been on, that has been the most inspiring and -- the message that has given me courage is, that`s what this is about, this is about child abuse, this is about preventing it. This is about setting a precedence that rings loud and clear to anyone who wants to abuse children or use any form of control to make these children and women and men do these horrible things.

COSBY: Elissa Wall, tell us also what happened briefly to you? Tell us what happened. I know that you were forced, what, into a, quote, "marriage," at the age of 14?

WALL: Yes, I was. I was born and raised in the FLDS community, and - - along with undergoing all the abuses that -- psychologically that came with that, I was married at 14 years old against my will to my first cousin.

COSBY: And you just didn`t know any better, right? This is what you grow up in?

WALL: Absolutely not. I didn`t know any better, and even though I contested the marriage, that was very -- that was very unheard of in that community and I was shunned for me -- I was shunned for not just following through with it, and just willingly obeying like everyone else has done in the past.

COSBY: Absolutely.

You know, Gary Tuchman, CNN national correspondent, in this case -- and you hear the case, you know, Elissa Wall and all these others, and in this case, he was on trial for just two. I know you mentioned there are a number of other ones. It sounds like the floodgates are going to open soon against this man. Deservedly so.

But here is the case, 12-year-old, 14-year-old. Did they testify? They did not, in this case, correct? And why?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And this is really important, Rita. Yes, 12-year-old girl, 14-year-old girl, when she married Warren Jeffs, 15 when she conceived the baby. And they were not here. And they were not here because either they`re too scared or they don`t want to be here or both.

Because as far as we know, both those victims are still part of the FLDS. Now we asked the attorney general in the state of Texas who was here for the verdict today, do you know what`s going on with those girls? Because we`re obviously very concerned about them.

He says, we can`t say, we have to protect them. And I said, do we know they`re safe? And he said, yes, we know they`re safe. So what we think might be going on is that, you know, we`ve got to make it clear, not everyone in the FLDS is like Warren Jeffs. Most people -- I know a lot of people in the FLDS they seem to be nice people.

So it`s very conceivable that these two victims are with family in the FLDS who the attorney general of Texas trusts.

COSBY: Well, I hope, and let`s pray, that that`s the case, as opposed to still being in the cycle.

You know, Flora Jessop, you escaped the sect. Tell us also how hard it is. This brainwashing that was going on and the sort of systematic abuse. And even in this horrible audiotape of this 12-year-old girl being raped, she`s saying thank you. I mean it breaks my heart to hear what`s going on, but the mental abuse that you endured and so many others. Tell us about that, Flora.

FLORA JESSOP, ESCAPED POLYGAMIST SECT WHEN SHE WAS 16: I`m sorry, I didn`t hear you.

COSBY: Yes, I was asking about the mental abuse, Flora, that you experienced and that so many others -- the sort of brainwashing, the process that goes on to these women time and time again from a very young age.

Tell us how that comes down and why it is so hard for them to break the cycle?

JESSOP: You know, Rita, it`s more than brainwashing, it`s indoctrination. When you have brainwashing, you at least have a foundation that you can go backwards, too. But with indoctrination your foundation is the indoctrination. And that makes it -- you know, if you`ve ever read the book "1984," where everything is upside down and backwards, that`s what it`s like when you come out of the FLDS.

You`ve been taught that everything outside of their culture is evil and bad, that everybody is lying to you, if they tell you it`s black, and you`ve been told the entire the grass is -- you know, a different color all your life, you`re going to believe the prophet and your family. Because why would your mom and dad lie to you?

And so it makes it extremely difficult. And that`s one of the reasons why Elissa Wall and Gail and Josephine and everybody else who`s ever gotten out of this, and succeeded and was strong and used their voices to better the lives of their families that are still inside. That`s why they`re such heroes. They`re amazing women, they`re strong women, and I -- they`re my heroes.

COSBY: Absolutely. They really are heroic for coming forward against, as you point out, all the difficult hurdles they went through.

Let`s take some calls. Let`s go to Ronnie from Utah who`s on the line.

Ronnie, what`s your question?

RONNIE, CALLER FROM UTAH: Hi, thank you for taking my call, Rita.

COSBY: You`re welcome.

RONNIE: I have a comment, I moved from the East Coast of New York to Utah. And I live here and I live amongst polygamists who don`t practice what Warren Jeffs does, with disgustingly raping children at 12 and 14.

But I have a question. Will this -- will this stop their polygamist lifestyle? That`s my first question to one of the escaped polygamist.

And the other question is, do they believe that Warren Jeffs considers him to be a prophet as Moses or Solomon, and that he now by not speaking in court was comparing himself to Jesus Christ at his own trial by remaining silent and making himself more of a martyr?

COSBY: Those are great questions, and I also think personally, by the way, I think that some people may view him as a martyr. I think he views himself as a martyr. We`re going to talk about that and a lot more after the break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCHMAN: The story of one still missing girl spells out the painful details in black and white. In a call to a family violence center that led authorities to raid the compound, she claimed she was wife number seven, married at 15 to a 49-year-old man. She was a mother with another already on the way.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Guilty of sexual assault with two children.

WARREN JEFFS, FLDS LEADER: I am not the prophet, I never was the prophet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turned against traitor.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There was a systematic process going on in which young girls were being groomed.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Disturbing pictures.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To become the wives of middle aged men.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Warren Jeffs kissing some of his alleged child brides.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no force here.

JEFFS: -- my aspiring and selfish way of life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone has their choice to do exactly what they like.

JEFFS: Being the most wicked man on the face of the earth.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Top ten most wanted fugitives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This individual needs to be brought to justice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Polygamist leader Warren Jeffs convicted of --

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And the polygamist leader now found guilty on two counts of sexual assault and could spend the rest of his life behind bars. Now in the punishment phase.

Again, everybody, if you`re just joining us, breaking news, the verdict coming down just a few hours ago. Those two counts of guilty.

I`m Rita Cosby in for Nancy Grace.

Let`s go, if we could, to Leslie Seppinni. She is the clinical psychologist and sort of the expert on all of this.

You know, Leslie, one of the last things that this guy said, and again now he is convicted of sexual assault of a 12-year-old and a 14-year-old, having a child with the 14-year-old. The last thing he said, this is the craziest closing argument. I can`t -- what it was like for the reporters that we`ve had on, watching in court.

He doesn`t say anything, he`s allowed 30 minutes. So in this time, and suddenly 25 minutes in, in the last five minutes, he suddenly says, I`m at peace. He makes this wacky statement. What does that mean?

LESLIE SEPPINNI, PSY.D., CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: It means two things. One, he`s totally narcissistic and believes that he really is appointed by god to be the prophet. Two, it addresses his issue as a pedophile.

Pedophiles believe that their victims are consenting. They believe that young women or young boys are able to consent to sexual advances and to having sex, period. They did not see it as rape. They do not see it as sexual abuse. They see it as a consensual relationship.

COSBY: You know, Flora Jessop, you escaped the polygamist cult. You experienced a lot of these horrible things firsthand. You hear that this guy is in there saying as we just heard, you know, from Leslie, I`m the prophet, I`m the god.

What did you experience? And do you think that there are still people out there who are going to consider this guy to be a martyr now?

JESSOP: Oh, definitely, Rita. There`s definitely guys that are going to be considering him a martyr, but not only that, but this is the thing that these kids are taught with all their lives.

They were taught -- I was taught that my father was my god and he had the right to do with me as he chose. And it`s the same way with the prophet. But I would like to address the -- your previous caller`s comments on wondering how this is going to affect the other polygamist groups.

COSBY: Yes, do you think it will? Do you think it`s going to have any effect? We sort of heard this cutting off the head of the snake. Will it have an effect, Flora?

JESSOP: You know what, I hope it has an effect. And I hope it has an effect in stopping this practice because when you create the situation where you have more than one woman sharing a man, the women ultimately are abused, because you cannot have emotion when you have this kind of situation.

Women are oppressed in it, there have been numerous studies done worldwide that show that polygamy, no matter where it`s practiced in the world, is not healthy for women and children.

COSBY: Yes. There`s nothing -- there`s nothing healthy about this, I mean, it`s disgusting. Especially when you`re hearing what state law says having child -- you know, having sex with a child under 17, guess what, it`s illegal, guys. Especially in Texas, my god.

Anywhere in the country this is shocking that anybody would assume that this is acceptable behavior. And this is, by the way, this is one of his, quote, "marriage pictures." There he is kissing his child bride. It`s disgusting.

You know, Peter Odom, defense attorney, do you think that now the gates are going to be unleashed? Now prosecutors are going to have more ammo to go after this guy? And this is -- do you think this will stop some of these other sick people out there doing this to children?

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No.

COSBY: No?

ODOM: No, I mean, this is a very, very common crime. And if anybody is going to suggest that somehow because Warren Jeffs has been convicted that child abuse is now over, I just think that`s naive.

I hope that this gives prosecutors courage to go into some of these cults and try and get more prosecutions. It`s very difficult to do because all the children that are victims of this abuse are indoctrinated. It`s very difficult to get them to come in and testify. But these prosecutors have shown that convictions are possible if it`s done correctly. And at least I hope that this will encourage prosecutors to do much more of it.

COSBY: Zahra Umansky, as a defense attorney, I mean, do you also think this could be a detriment? Do you think it could also be somehow deter other folks out there in the cult case saying, look, maybe I shouldn`t be having sex with 12-year-olds?

ZAHRA UMANSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we would hope so, Rita, but I`m not sure. I think that what would be smart is what we talked about before that Texas attorney general going after those wives that were present during the audio recording holding down the 12-year-old.

How about charging them with a crime and then using that as leverage against those women to cooperate with you to bring more charges? I think that would be a way to keep this thing going.

COSBY: Absolutely. Look, he`s got them on audiotape, we know he called the child by name. We don`t know obviously the three wives. They know the three wives there. We assume he knows exactly they are. I`m talking about the prosecutor in this case.

UMANSKY: Exactly.

COSBY: I hope that he does go after them and anybody who is present. I mean it is shocking when you hear what happened, tying down the child, raping the child, asking how does she feel. It sickens me, everyone. It sickens me.

Sharlene from Massachusetts is on the line. What`s your question?

SHARLENE, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, my question has to do with child support for all these children that have been fathered not only by Warren Jeffs, but others in the cult. And I`m wondering if there could be any records of these children. And I have heard that there has been reports about some of these single mothers getting child support from the government. And I`m wondering if there`s anyway to kind of recoup some of that money because this cult has a lot of assets.

COSBY: That`s an interesting question. Let`s go to Gary Tuchman who`s been covering this for years now. CNN national correspondent.

Gary, is there any sort of -- we know that there`s documents showing a financial trail or at least a marriage trail. Is there any sort of financial trail?

TUCHMAN: What happens is, a lot of these men are married to multiple women, but only one of the marriage is legal. The rest of them are called celestial marriages and they`re not recognized by the state.

So what happens in a lot of cases in the FLDS is these other women who say they`re married to their husbands, to the people they live with, saying to the federal government, they`re not married, that they`re single women, and they get payments from the federal government. So there`s a lot of fraud that takes place and that`s been going on for years.

COSBY: And Christi Paul, host of "In Session" on truTV, we know again this document, the marriage certificates. What`s ahead now for this punishment phase? We`ve heard the attorney general of Texas, I was hearing on an earlier show here. He was basically saying the mother load is coming. That this was just the tip of the iceberg.

What can we expect that`s ahead for now this convicted rapist as you point out?

CHRISTI PAUL, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION" ON TRUTV: Like you said, they`re going to talk about these 78 other illegal marriages, 24 of which were allegedly to children, 67 illegal marriages that he participated in, meaning that he may have been the pastor over them.

Sixty incidents of where he was breaking up families, taking children from their parents and basically putting them in another family. And then of course you`ve got the lost boys. They brought that up. The boys he exiled from FLDS community out into the middle of nowhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Warren Jeffs found guilty on two counts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s a sexual pervert. A deviant. This is what people will say about him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you decide to represent yourself you have nothing but a fool for a client.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Faces up to 99 years in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Representing himself and staying silent.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Only utterance he made, I am at peace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doing his own opening statement and not really defending against the allegations. That definitely weighed on the jury`s minds.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And now Warren Jeffs has been found guilty on two counts of sexual assault, assaulting a 12-year-old girl who is in his sect. In his polygamous sect in Texas. A number of them all over the country. But specifically the Texas case. And also a 14-year-old who bore his child when she was 15 years old.

Let`s go to Beth Karas who`s also a reporter with "In Session" on truTV.

Beth, what`s expected -- how long is this next phase? This is the penalty phase. What could he get and how long is it expected to last?

KARAS: Well, for the top charge of aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14, he faces five to 99 years or life. And that will be the jury`s decision, whether to give him -- we believe the attorney general will be asking for life. That`s what Gregg Abbot, the attorney general of Texas, said earlier today.

Now the phase itself will be anywhere from two to three days. We have no idea how long the jury will deliberate. The prosecution has a handful of witnesses. They`ll have a full day tomorrow. We are expected to be here on Saturday. It could spill over into Monday.

We don`t know if the defense will put on evidence but the judge did tell Mr. Jeffs yesterday that all of this religious persecution evidence is really mitigation evidence. He`ll talk to the jury about that in mitigation. Maybe they`ll give him a break, and give him 50 years instead of life or something.

I shouldn`t say that. That`s me talking. Regarding mitigation. So it could all be over by Monday or Tuesday of next week.

COSBY: Well, we`re going to be following closely again. Convicted on two counts of sexual assault.

And tonight, everybody, we remember Army Staff Sergeant Clint Storey, 30 years old from Enid, Oklahoma. Killed in action in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts. He loved playing Texas Hold`Em, video games and also pool. A movie buff, he also loved restoring old cars.

He is remembered as an optimist who never wanted to fail and was devoted to his daughter. Even playing with dolls if she wanted. He leaves behind his mother Carolyn and stepfather Bill. His sister Charlene and Tanya and Tammie. His widow Melissa and daughter Adila (ph) and also a baby boy that he never got to meet named (INAUDIBLE).

Clint Storey, a true American hero.

And everyone, I want to thank all of our guests and especially to you at home tonight for being with us. We`ll see you tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern Time. And until then, everyone, have a terrific evening. It was great being with you.

END