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Nancy Grace
Judge Says Casey Anthony Probation Case "A Mess"
Aired August 05, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Casey Anthony gets to stay in hiding for now. Just hours ago, an emergency hearing over Anthony`s probation for check fraud ends with the same judge who presided over own her murder trial left to sort out what he calls "a mess." At issue is whether Anthony already served probation behind bars while she was a murder suspect. And while we wait for Judge Belvin Perry`s ruling, is Casey Anthony raking in the dough by staging photo-ops?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony`s attorney back in court fighting a probation order.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: When did you terminate Ms. Anthony`s probation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was terminated on January 24th, 2011.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, FLORIDA DISTRICT COURT: I just don`t know the answer at this time. I just don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has Casey Anthony finally been found?
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I most definitely did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New video has hit TMZ.com of Casey Anthony walking around some town in Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Walks along a street in jeans and a T-shirt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the woman in Ohio Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe it looks like her -- eyebrows, chin, the nose, they line up very close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over 80 percent likelihood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think it`s her.
CASEY ANTHONY: There`s absolutely nothing to find out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the questions is, where is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: You keep asking the same questions 500 times over!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where is she going? Where is she now?
CASEY ANTHONY: They need to shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she in Ohio?
CASEY ANTHONY: Like, don`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste your time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will be looking over her shoulder for the rest of her life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This can`t be happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening, I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Casey Anthony`s plan to stay in hiding may not last for that long. An emergency hearing over probation could land Anthony right back in Orlando.
Let`s go live to Orlando courthouse, to Michael Christian, senior field producer with "In Session." Hey, Michael, I got to believe that Judge Perry feels a little bit like Michael Corleone. Just when he thought he was out, they pull him back in! (INAUDIBLE) "Godfather," right?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": You got to feel sorry for this guy! You know, on Monday, here`s Judge Perry, you know, having breakfast, eating his Wheaties. He`s on top of the world. And then by the middle of the week, this thing is back in his lap, as you say.
Judge Perry has inherited this, and he is frank about calling it "a mess." He used that word twice today at today`s hearing. He also said it was "a maze." He also said it was "a morass." Nobody knows exactly what he`s going to do. All we know is that whatever he decides, we shouldn`t hear that decision until sometime in the middle of next week.
LALAMA: Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine, I think Judge Perry is applying Murphy`s law. Didn`t he say that anything that could go wrong in this case did go wrong in this matter? So first what I want you to explain to me -- and let`s explain to our viewers -- why is he suddenly on the probation issue? And then we`ll take it from there.
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": Well, you know, actually, it was Judge Stan Strickland who was on this case before, and you know, he had to recuse himself from the murder trial, and so the defense has asked that he recuse himself from this, as well. Judge Strickland has gone onto the media and has said a lot negative about Casey Anthony and about the case. So it does make sense that they asked for him to be removed.
LALAMA: Aphrodite Jones, host of "True Crime" on Investigation Discovery, explain for us the issue.
APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIME," INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: OK, here it is, Pat. This is a very tricky situation. I happened upon it because I`m doing research for a book, and I happened to notice that Judge Strickland had said in open court that she should serve probation after she was released.
Now, upon her release -- and he issued what is called a split sentence, Pat, which is unusual. What he did is say, You`ll serve your jail time now, 421 days on the six felonies that you pleaded guilty to, and then you will serve probation for one year after release, upon release. That`s unusual that he gave a split sentence.
I went to the judge`s chambers. I asked his clerk for those documents. I got the documents. The documents show in the minutes taken by the court reporter that there was a clerical error. The probation element was not listed in the minutes. But in the actual transcripts, Pat, of the proceedings held in open court, where Jose Baez is arguing with Judge Strickland, saying, Judge, I don`t want probation to even be a matter right now, we`re putting the cart before the horse, Strickland says, No, no, no. I`m going to give her probation for one year upon release. I`m going to find her -- she`s pled guilty. She will do 412 days for those six felonies, check fraud, identity fraud.
And now we have a situation, unfortunately, where the judge`s intent is clear, but because the Department of Corrections in Orange County took it upon themselves to give her, quote, "probation" while in jail...
LALAMA: Now we have -- now we have a big mess. Now we have -- now...
JONES: We have -- we have a confusing mess because in the fifth district in Florida, where this actually is going to be appealed to, they have a rule there that says the written word goes above the verbal word of a judge, which is contrary to anybody else`s ruling across the country.
LALAMA: That`s a very interesting point, Aphrodite. Judge Gino Brogdon, former judge, Fulton superior court, trial lawyer, author, "Demons in the Crawlspace," we`ve got "upon release" spoken by the judge. It was left out of the written order. You heard Aphrodite`s point that Florida has this exception about written versus oral. What`s the deal? Where do you see this going?
GINO BROGDON, FMR. JUDGE, FULTON SUPERIOR COURT: Well, I think that Judge Perry is going to say that she has served probation in -- along with her jail time. The mistake is not Casey Anthony`s, the mistake is the judge`s. The buck stops with the judge. The written order cannot be disputed. What the judge said in court can be. And that`s why states have this rule that when it`s in writing, it`s an order and it`s final.
And see, one of the things we got to keep in mind here is that the judge also had 60 days to try to correct this. What makes this weird is that the judge comes back some 18 months and tries to clarify his order, and it really makes this kind of messy.
LALAMA: It sure is. And I want to go to Richard Herman, defense attorney. I know that in the law, there`s something called the rule of lenity (ph), which applies to statutes, where if you can find a favorable argument, if you`re reading that statute and it`s favorable to the defendant and it could be equally unfavorable to the defendant, that you`ve got to be -- you`ve got to pick for the defendant.
Could that also -- could the spirit of that apply here, that you`ve got to say, Hey, we`ve got to err on the side of the defendant in this case?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Pat, the judge made a comment today. He said, This is a mess. I don`t even know what I`m going to do here. There is no case law on point. I`ve researched the cases. My clerks have researched the cases. He`s thinking about going to what we call horizontal stare decisis. He wants to look at other jurisdictions, how they handle issues like this.
But do you think it`s too much to ask Judge Strickland, like, take time off from his golf and from going on TV to actually read an order before he puts his name on it? Because that`s all he had to do here. The fact is, Pat, she served probation. She did it. She was released from probation in January. And like the judge just said, this Judge Perry is not going to make her do probation again. That would be so wrong.
LALAMA: But Tad Nelson, defense attorney, is it a legal probation?
TAD NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, it`s a legal probation. Just like your other guest said, when the judge is handed the order, pretty much judges -- we`ve all seen it. If the government hands him something or the clerk or probation office, they`re going to sign it. They don`t even think twice about it.
In this case, the department of probation in Florida immediately started her probationary period. They went down there. They ran her through it. Granted, they didn`t have all the bells and whistles that she would be doing on the outside. But they went and they checked on her. They asked her questions and made sure she was following the law.
And contrary to what everybody`s saying in the media, you can break the law while you`re locked up. There`s no doubt about that. And that`s one of her conditions. So every condition that was thrown (ph) upon her, she was hanging in there doing.
But just like your guest said about Judge Strickland -- Judge Strickland was so concerned about this order, all he had to do was, one, read what he was signing, or two, check on it because after 60 days, he has no right to go back and change it.
And coming back 100-and -- you know, 18 months later and thinking he can make changes -- he`s not changing anything, he`s doing a complete modification or doing a do-over, and it`s just ridiculous.
LALAMA: Caryn Stark, psychologist, I`m just curious, before we dissect this a little bit further from the legal perspective, from a psychological perspective, you`re Casey Anthony and you know this is hanging over your head, what`s it like for her?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, we`re talking about somebody who really doesn`t have that kind of introspection or who would be having true feelings. What`s it like for her? She`ll miss out on having a lot of fun if she has to start doing probation. And I`m sure that it doesn`t fit her character. I`m sure that she feels she`s suffered enough.
But in the court of public opinion, which is totally different -- I know it`s not legal -- everybody would like for her to do probation, if not more jail time. So it`ll be interesting to see what comes out of all of this.
LALAMA: Michael Christian, back to you, senior field producer, "In Session," do you think Judge Strickland deserves the criticism he`s getting as being sort of a media hog and clamoring for his own TV show and making lots of errors along the way? Is that unfair?
CHRISTIAN: Well, you know, it`s unfair because he`s a sitting judge and he may have a very valid concern in this case. But it is a little bit strange. I`ll give you that, Patty. It is a little bit strange. And there`s clearly no love lost between the defense in this case and Judge Strickland.
Lisabeth Fryer, who was the attorney, the defense attorney who argued much of this motion today, she talked about Judge Strickland`s "vindictive" sentencing. I mean, they truly believe that Judge Strickland has gone out of his way to slam Casey Anthony simply because he`s not happy with the way the verdict turned out.
So I think that he`s going to get some criticism for this. He`s also gotten some criticism for, you know, putting out this amended order on Monday and then going on vacation. He just sort of dropped it in Judge Perry`s lap, recused himself, and he`s off somewhere. So there is a lot of criticism, and I think some of it may stick.
LALAMA: Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine, you know, one of the things I do like about Judge Perry is he`s so thoughtful. He seems to really want to do the right thing. And he also seems completely just bewildered at this point, not out of lack of knowledge, he just wants to research the thing before he makes any knee-jerk reaction.
HELLING: Yes. Absolutely. And that`s one thing we saw throughout the whole trial was that Judge Perry really did try to be as fair as he could to both sides. And that`s something that we might not be seeing with Judge Strickland in this case. And everybody thinks he`s trying to come in and be Captain America. Right now, we just need to look at what the law has to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Check fraud case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These checks came from her friend`s car, Amy Huizenga.
CASEY ANTHONY: I sincerely apologize to Amy.
BAEZ: What if Ms. Anthony had sent her a letter apologizing or writing to her in any way? What would have occurred?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That would have been a violation of the terms of probation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: If anything could go wrong, it went wrong here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice for Caylee!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A dozen death threats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Media frenzy.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to hear any of this media (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is 15 minutes of fame so important to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Juror number 12.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gone into hiding literally.
PERRY: There are folks out there that want to do crazy things.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the hell is wrong with you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is what it is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I came to see...
CASEY ANTHONY: What the hell`s going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has Casey Anthony finally been found?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to go back!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is rowdy.
CASEY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any (INAUDIBLE) fingers for the media?
PERRY: Your middle finger of affection.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got one for you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The world (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Opened a big can of justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrageous outburst.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m done.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I am talking!
CASEY ANTHONY: They need to shut up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is she?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m protecting our family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the rest of your frickin` life!
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
BAEZ: The nonsense stops right now!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We won, they lost.
CASEY ANTHONY: I mean, really?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Hi. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, welcome. And do you know if Cindy and George have any opinion one way or the other about this probation issue?
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Well, we talked about it. They had said that they had thought that Casey had done her time and that this was going to be a non-issue. And they had no idea that it was going to blow up like this.
LALAMA: And have they spoken?
LIPPMAN: No, they haven`t spoken.
LALAMA: Mark, who do you think is the one who doesn`t want to speak, or is it everybody? Are the parents willing to make some overtures to her?
LIPPMAN: As far as I know right now, it`s the defense and Casey who have just wanted their distance right now. And my clients haven`t said one way or another what they`re planning on doing if Casey decides she does want to speak. So first we wanted...
LALAMA: What -- what...
LIPPMAN: I`m sorry. Go ahead.
LALAMA: No, I was just going to ask you, when you say defense, do you think that perhaps Casey is influenced by any recommendations they have about whether she should speak to her parents?
LIPPMAN: Oh, I`m sure she`s taking everything under consideration, but I have no idea what they talk to her about or even if they make recommendations to her. But that`s what the counsel is there for her, if they are.
LALAMA: All right, let`s look at the issue of probation again. Judge Gino Brogdon, here`s my question. Isn`t the spirit of probation that it`s in the community, that you are showing you can work your way back into the community and not get in trouble? So how does that apply if you`re behind bars.
BROGDON: Well, traditionally, probation is for release. It`s to allow someone to transition back into society under supervision. But what happened here is it got screwed up because the judge didn`t say "upon release," which would have been the traditional way to do it. Technically, she was doing probation while in jail. I`ve never seen it that way, but I can see how it would happen, and it did happen here.
LALAMA: Aphrodite Jones, host, "True Crime" on Investigation Discovery, is it true that the defense was aware when the probation machine started rolling and didn`t say anything? And the second question is, did they have any obligation to say anything to anybody about it?
JONES: Well, the defense was clearly aware that the probation machine started rolling when she got the letter saying, Congratulations, have a good life...
LALAMA: Right. Right.
JONES: ... you`re terminated. But let me say this. Back to the judge`s comment that Strickland did not say "upon release" -- indeed, he did say "upon release" in court, on videotape, on the record, that Casey Anthony should be serving probation upon release.
And Pat, here`s the thing. This felony -- these felony charges that she pleaded guilty to, the six check fraud charges, the identity theft charges, were pleaded directly to the bench. In other words, she pled guilty to Judge Strickland. There was no plea bargain there. And therefore, his sentence, his pronouncement of sentence, which is what I have the transcript of, clearly states he wants her to serve 412 days...
LALAMA: Right.
JONES: ... 412 days, and probation upon release. So...
LALAMA: So you`re saying -- I think you`re saying, Aphrodite, there`s no question here. But Richard Herman, do you agree that "upon release" -- "upon release" means upon release? That was the spirit of his order.
HERMAN: No, Pat. As you said, the written order in Florida controls, and that`s how it should be. Listen, probation took the case. There was a probation officer. Trust me, if she contacted Amy Huizenga, they would have violated her. Come on! And Florida allows to have probation while you`re incarcerated. They do it! It`s something that wasn`t just done Casey. They do it! It`s stated. Come on! this is ridiculous!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve been reporting on pictures.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not surprised at the crap that`s coming (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allegedly of Casey Anthony.
CASEY ANTHONY: Show me pictures. Show me something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That have surfaced on TMZ and other sites.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t want to hear any of this media (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the woman in Ohio, those pictures, the same woman we`ve seen in the courtroom? Is it Casey Anthony?
CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see that the eyebrows and the chin, the nose -- they line up very close.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But then we also run the algorithms.
CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my God!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it`s a statistical comparison, and the statistical comparison came up with a weighted score over 80 percentile. So we think it`s her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. We`ve got callers queuing up to asks questions. Christine, good evening, from Oklahoma.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening, Pat. Thank you for taking my call.
LALAMA: Sure. Your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t -- why shouldn`t Casey Anthony, you know, serve probation after -- you know, after she gets out of jail, just like everybody else does in the country? I don`t understand that. And could they have put her on probation for lying to police, for all of those charges that she was found guilty for?
LALAMA: Thank you so much. Sorry for interrupting. Tad Nelson, defense attorney, would you like to take that one?
NELSON: Sure. The reason they can`t put her on probation is because they`ve already put her on probation. She`s completed her probation. She`s done a year of probation. The fact is, the judge made a mistake. Everybody else involved in this process followed through on the mistake. They showed up. They did her probation stuff. Then they formally -- formally -- released her from probation, which I assure you that Judge Strickland`s signature is on that formal release.
So here`s a guy who pays attention to nothing, but yet he`s so indignant about what happened in this verdict, he`s trying every which way he can to punish this person, just like his media appearances. He just won`t let it go, and he`s going to do whatever he can, waste more money.
LALAMA: Before we move on this topic, Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, I believe it`s Caylee`s birthday August 9. We need to remember that. What might be planned on the part of the family?
LIPPMAN: During that month, we`re planning a formal release of the Caylee`s Fund organization. We`re going to try to get as close to the birthday as possible, but there`s a lot of work to do, so it may be a couple of weeks afterwards.
LALAMA: You want to tell us a little bit about that foundation very quickly?
LIPPMAN: Yes. Sure. It`s -- it involves grandparents` rights, and it also involved missing and exploited children. And as far as grandparents` rights, we`re hoping to change some legislation and help people that are having problems as grandparents dealing with their grandchildren and trying to find out ways to help them enforce the laws in their favor. And then as far as missing and exploited children, my clients plan to help anybody who needs help in those particular areas.
LALAMA: Very good. Caryn Stark, psychologist, I think a lot of people are wondering, if Casey`s on probation, will she get in trouble again? Just based on what you know, is she likely to get herself in trouble?
STARK: Unequivocally, she will get in trouble. I can`t imagine that she wouldn`t. This is her lifestyle. She needs to go out. She needs to party. She did it while her daughter was missing. So I can`t imagine that probation will stop her from drinking and partying and being in body contests and doing the things that she does best.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When did you terminate Miss Anthony`s probation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was terminated on January 24th, 2011.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is she?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, everything you`ve told us we have locked you into a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Is Casey Anthony going back to Orlando or not?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me, it`s something who looks a lot like Casey, but I`m not convinced.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not sure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The longer this goes, the worse it`s going to be for everyone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I worry about the danger that Casey Anthony will be in no matter where she may do probation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there somewhere. Her rotten body is starting to decompose because you won`t tell us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: See whether or not Casey Anthony will have to come back to Orlando.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who did you drop her of to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With Zenaida?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you didn`t. That`s not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are a lot of people who go through the probation system who might be danger and they don`t get any special care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, CNN ANCHOR: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Richard Herrmann, defense attorney. It is my understanding that a probation officer saw her one time, she didn`t have to look for a job, I mean there are a lot of terms of probation that was not subjected to. You`re still telling me she served probation?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I am. And you know it was preposterous for the prosecutor today to argue in court that public policy dictates that she didn`t. The fact is this, the prison system and the state court in Florida handles probation. They have consistently done probation while people are incarcerated. That`s how it is in the state of Florida. A probation officer was assigned, she had terms of probation, and she met with that person. If she had violated those terms, if she got in a fight in prison with someone or if she contacted Amy Huizenga, you know she would have been violated. And the same prosecutor would have gone after her.
So please, this is just preposterous, these are sour grape losers, they got their butts blown off at trial. They put on a horrible prosecution here and now they have to lick their wounds and back away and just stop. This girl is going to get on with her life whether anyone likes it or not, she won the case, it`s over.
LALAMA: You know I have to ask Michael Christian, Senior film Producer, IN SESSION. I don`t know if the prosecution was making a passionate argument. In fact I heard that they were going to side with the defense. Am I wrong about that?
MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SENIOR FILM PRODUCER, IN SESSION: It was a little strange, Pat; originally a spokesperson for the prosecution here said that they really didn`t take an issue on this that they were staying out of it. We didn`t even really know for sure whether they would show up at the hearing this morning. Well, all of a sudden here comes Frank George, sits down at the states` table. Linda Drane Burdick came in and sat behind him. She was the same girl in the hearing. But during the hearing, although Frank George the prosecutor acknowledged that another state agency had indeed certified that Casey Anthony is under parole, it was obvious that all of a sudden the prosecution is hoping that Judge Perry will indeed hold her do that.
They want her to have her do parole, they think it would be fairer for her to do parole, but at the same time, they are acknowledging that there is a certification that she`s already done it so. So they were a little more forceful than we were expecting them to be coming into the hearing today.
LALAMA: staff writer of People Magazine. You know some might say that the reason why there was this big mix-up is because most people were expecting a conviction, that this was a mute point. Nobody`s thinking about probation on some pitiably check fraud things. And it just got lost, the whole thing got lost, could that be true?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Absolutely. That`s probably exactly true. Because, you know, everybody thought that Casey Anthony was going to be convicted of first-degree murder or at least of manslaughter. And if you saw the prosecution`s face, like I did, when the verdict came back, and she was found not guilty, they were shocked, they didn`t know what to do. So I`m sure that way back when, they just thought this was kind of the you know, this was a little case and the big case was coming up and she would be locked away for the rest of her life and that didn`t happen, so now there`s a little bit of catch up going on.
LALAMA: Aphrodite Jones, host True Crime Investigation Discovery. Do you agree with the notion that the prosecution is made up of sour, sour, sour, sour grapes? And they are just so angry and this is their little argument to try to get back at poor Casey Anthony?
APHRODITE JONES, HOST TRUE CRIME INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: There might be a touch of sour grapes, who knows? And I can`t say that obviously that`s possible. But here`s the legal issue at hand.
Probation and you have some people here commenting on your panel, who are saying in the state of Florida, probation is always served while in jail or routinely served while in jail, no, only when there`s a purpose. If the person is a drug addict for example, they will start to use probation in the first year while they`re serving jail, prison time and then in the second year, they do that probation on the outside? Why? Because probation is meant as a rehabilitative thing, it`s a way that`s meant in the spirit of bringing somebody back into society.
So that is not the case that people are allowed to serve probation and have it all finished while they`re sitting in jail for something else. Another issue here is Casey wasn`t in prison, she was in jail. They don`t even have a provision to do probation in jail. So she didn`t satisfy anything. There was a meeting, an initial meeting, they verified her address. And then they sent her a letter, which by the way, Judge Strickland didn`t sign.
So these are not so much about sour grapes, I think it`s more about Judge Strickland and the prosecution saying, wait a minute here, it did get lost in the sauce, everybody was focused on a murder trial, everybody was focused on murder one or manslaughter. And in the mix-up, when Strickland said, hey, I`m reserving, you`re going to do probation after this is all over, if you get released, if the defense does win this case, hey, it got lost and now they want to impose what was the intent of the court.
LALAMA: Tad Nelson, want to weigh in on that?
TAD NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That was ridiculous. The bottom line is who would know probation better in the state of Florida than the Florida department of corrections. That is their job. And if they let her go, from probation on January 24th, that`s six months almost before the trial started. Somebody could have done something. Everybody knew what went on. But just like you said a second ago, Pat, they didn`t care because they were sending this girl away for life. They were going to give her the death penalty. None of this mattered.
The only reason it matters now is a jury who sat back and listened to evidence for seven weeks decided the government didn`t prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt and that`s the only reason it matters and that is the only reason they`re trying to give her more probation, they have already done it once, that`s enough.
LALAMA: Judge Brogdon, do you see Judge Perry doing a Solomon things, like splitting the difference somehow?
JUDGE GINO BROGDON, AUTHOR, DEMONS IN THE CRAWLSPACE: No, I actually don`t because he`s going to have to adhere to the legal rules that govern this. This is a mess as he identified it and it`s a mess created by Judge Strickland.
Now everybody some to be - not everybody but some people seem to be saying lost in the sauce, and things of that sort. The judge had an opportunity to read the order before he signed it. He had an opportunity to correct the order within 60 days after signing it. And the rules are if he doesn`t do that, the order stands. Regardless of what he said in court. The buck stops with the judge.
LALAMA: Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. He did mention that he was taking the issue of safety under consideration. Does that surprise you or is that his job?
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Well, that`s his job. I mean he wants to make sure that everything is considered before he makes a decision on that.
LALAMA: And maybe we`ll have -- why don`t we go back to the judge real quickly to explain what is administrative probation? He talked about that.
BROGDON: The judge could put her on a non-reporting. She would be technically on probation but wouldn`t have the requirement that she see a probation officer periodically, and keep track of her time and those things. She simply would have to stay out of trouble, don`t consort with convicted felons; don`t carry a firearm, things of that sort. But it would not be the strictest terms of probation.
LALAMA: And Richard Herman, is it possible that if she`s in this other state presumably Ohio, that you could transfer probation there, just to save us the chaos in the Florida courtroom, he could say, she`s in state x, I`m going to assign someone there, let her do her probation somewhere else. Is that a possibility?
HERMAN: I`m not sure in the state courts you can do that, federal courts you can. I`m not sure Pat if they`re going to try to crap something. He did mentioned administration probation today or something he was looking into. But I just don`t believe he`s going to do any probation.
That January 24, 2011 order is really, I mean that the buck is going to stop with that order, I believe, when the judge sits down over this weekend and carefully analyzes what happened here, what went down, all the opportunities that Judge Strickland had to fix this, he`s not going to blame the defense for not taking appeals or doing anything, he`s not going to blame the prosecution, he`s going to look to Judge Strickland who dumped this mess in his lap and I believe that he`s going to say, that`s it for probation, it`s completed and that`s how it`s going to be.
LALAMA: And here we are, waiting again for another Casey Anthony ruling.
To tonight, case alert. An amber alert has been issued for a kidnapped 4-year-old California boy. Jeremy got re-abducted early Friday around 4:30 in the morning in California. A mystery note was left behind for Jeremy`s mother who last saw her little son Thursday night.
Cops have identified a female suspect, Annette Hale. She`s 5`4", 200 pounds with red hair. Jeremy was last seen wearing camouflage shirt and blue spider-man pants.
Anyone with information, please call the local police at 805-543-2444.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Deals with paparazzi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You can take my picture.
CASEY ANTHONY: Money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You can make money.
CASEY ANTHONY: Money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You can give me some.
CASEY ANTHONY: Money. That`s all I want, that`s all him asking.
GEORGE ANTHONY: You can expedite this quickly if you want to.
CASEY ANTHONY: How?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Pictures allegedly of Casey Anthony that re surface --
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s just another business transaction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was it something that was orchestrated because obviously these pictures were sold?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, most definitely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: There`s video as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s in that old Navy store, perusing the merchandise.
CASEY ANTHONY: I like the new shirts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The courtroom face that we know is Casey, the face from Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the woman in those pictures is Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To me this person looks a little bit more physically robust than Casey`s.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know in my gut.
Not in physical form at is moment.
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY: The state would argue that she did not.
CASEY ANTHONY: Sit on my butt all day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess the one final irony is that now Casey can now afford a nanny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Aphrodite Jones of Investigation Discovery. So now we`re on pins and needless, Judge Perry`s got a working weekend, when might we expect an answer from him?
JONES: Well, we`re talking about an answer probably the middle of next week. But I want to add something about these photos, Pat; about Casey Anthony because a lot of people are tweeting in to me, asking me, is it really her?
We don`t think it`s her, there`s a big question mark out there. There had been from people in Los Angeles weighing in, supposed experts about whether or not this is Casey. I can tell you after having sat and looked at her for six weeks in court, seven really with jury select, that this is her, it is her body, she does have a butt, there`s a little bit of a butt there.
LALAMA: Yes. That`s been our debate in the newsroom, that we didn`t think she had a behind.
JONES: Yes. She does. And by the way, nobody got to see that because she`s sitting down, you`re seeing her from the waist up. But I`m watching her whole body. I sat right behind her in the first row during jury selection, I watched her very closely and carefully. That girl is Casey Anthony in the photos.
And here`s the odd thing about it, Pat. Why is she in "disguise"? If she really wanted to disguise herself, she would have clanged the color of her hair.
LALAMA: Well, Aphrodite. Let me interrupt. She`s allegedly wearing an Ohio state if it`s her and that you believe it. In Ohio State University cap, my alma mater, why does it have to be the Ohio State University? But that`s another question for another day.
Mark Lippman, attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, her parents believe its, correct?
LIPPMAN: They do believe it`s her, obviously they don`t have 100 percent confirmation, but they have a lot of concerns for the rest of their family there, because there`s speculation that the family invited her there, George`s brother in law in there and the rest of the family. And that`s the farthest from the truth.
She hasn`t had any contact with the family. They didn`t have any contact with her. There`s speculation they flew her there, that`s also the farthest from the truth and certainly their safety is now in jeopardy also. They didn`t want anything to do with this trial or anything to do with Casey and now they`ve been brought up just because she showed up there.
LALAMA: Steve Helling, Staff Write of People Magazine. Steve, there`s a lot of discussion in the newsroom about these photographs. It`s just a little bit odd to me, she`s by herself. You know it almost looks like it`s as someone said, one two three, now walk Casey, I mean is this all set up? Did she make a deal with someone for a pittance of some money until the big interview comes down the road?
HELLING: It certainly looks like it. You know I agree with Aphrodite. I was sitting next to Aphrodite in court and watching Casey Anthony and this woman looks a lot like her, and definitely I believe this is her in these pictures and video.
And they do seem staged, they do seem fake, as somebody who sees amount of these types of videos and a lot of these things, normally they don`t look this way, this just felt off. It felt a little bit staged and whether or not she`s getting paid for that, only she and presumably her lawyers know for sure.
LALAMA: Michael Christian, your thoughts on this, staged? Just a luck of the draw that some, wink, wink, cameraman got a shot of her?
CHRISTIAN: You know I wish I was that lucky. It`s hard to think that whoever this was, whether it`s her or not, that these movements weren`t staged. She`s by herself. She`s walking down the street. You know I have been out with a million crews trying to shoot BE role for stories and we don`t get it that good most of the time. It definitely looks like no matter who it is, it`s got to be staged, it`s just has to be.
LALAMA: And Mark, I know you don`t think for Casey, that you represent her parents, but I would like your opinion as an attorney. Why would she agree to do this when we`re talking about a million and a half dollars down the road for an interview?
LIPPMAN: I don`t know, if she agreed to do it, it`s coming from TMZ and for whatever reason, it`s like they have GPS on everybody in this case and they`re trying to get pictures of everybody in any type of condition or compromising situation.
Until somebody says it was staged or we know for certain, or somebody comes up and says, yes, I sold the pictures, I`m thinking that they tracked her down and they`re putting her at risk.
LALAMA: But Steve Helling, my understanding is that TMZ bought it from another agency?
HELLING: Right. Splash News. And Splash News is a paparazzi agency for lack of a better term. They find people and then they take a pictures and then they sell them to places like TMZ, they shop them around everywhere.
It is interesting to note that the pictures were taken on a Sunday afternoon but didn`t hit until Wednesday morning which presumably would give whoever was in those pictures time to move on. So that makes it feel like perhaps it`s staged. But like I said before, we don`t know for sure.
LALAMA: Caryn Stark, Psychologist, what is it like to be in hiding with the angry mob on your heels?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, for somebody likes her, and I have to tell you, Pat, I do believe that it`s possible that she was fully aware of this. Because why would she be with somebody else? I don`t understand if she`s in hiding who she would be with?
And I also feel like she wants people to see her. It`s a big conflict, maybe she`s afraid, but she also needs to be out there. And it`s very possible, you`re talking about she`s going to be getting a lot of money, but this is somebody who doesn`t care if it`s a little money, a lot of money, whether she should be in hiding or not hiding. She does what the opportunity calls for. She`s having fun.
LALAMA: Thank you.
Switching gears now to tonight`s CNN heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBBIE CANTWELL, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, my kids were really young and I was working full-time. We were struggling and when you start adding hospital bills and medication costs, it throws your world upside down.
My husband took care of me, took care of the kids. My parents and my friends did everything for me. Through treatment I was meeting women that just didn`t have it as easy as me. All these people were there with me and I couldn`t possibly pay everybody back.
So I decided I was going to pay it forward.
My name is Debbie Cantwell and I provide care and comfort to young women fighting breast cancer. We send out gift cards, restaurant gift cards, grocery gift cards and house cleaning services.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was really bottoming out emotionally. Then all of a sudden I can buy diapers. And I can get food.
Look at that.
It`s so much more than just tangible things. It`s hope.
CANTWELL: I help young women that can`t wait for a cure. These women are sick right now and need help today.
Hi Rachel. How are you? Did your groceries come?
RACHEL: They did. I just got them. I appreciate it. It`s such a huge help.
CANTWELL: They`re my sisters. And I honestly would do anything to help them out.
I take it really personally. It`s hard when I lose somebody, but it`s just part of the job.
I`ll probably die of breast cancer someday, but I want to really make the most of the time I have by doing some good in the world and being the best I can for whatever time I have.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN Heroes was brought to you by Tide with Acti- lift technology, stains lift off with this and by Subaru-it what makes a Subaru a Subaru. Nominate a special person at CNNHeroes.com for the chance to give your hero the recognition they deserve.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LALAMA: A program in alert tonight. This Sunday, Nancy Grace is on lifetime Drop Dead Diva. And this time, Nancy girls` after she decides to make a dramatic exit from an airplane.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m so sorry to interrupt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wait, you`re never sorry unless you`ve got bad news.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom was watching CNN and it turns out your mom is about to be interviewed by Nancy Grace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes. Yes. Live in studio. And that is help passenger from flight 82.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s at my house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I just called your house. She isn`t picking up her cell either.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn on the TV.
NANCY GRACE, HOST, NANCY GRACE SHOW: Some people refer to Elaine Bingham as quote, "a folk hero". Elaine, folk hero? Yes no maybe?
ELAINE BINGHAM, FOLK HERO: Actually. I just did the right thing. I knew the minute I went down that slide that the airplane doors would open and let the captives free.
GRACE: You`re arrested?
BINGHAM: Yes I know. But so was Paul Revere. Nancy, between the two of us, it isn`t the first time for me.
GRACE: Are you telling me you are a repeat offender?
BINGHAM: Shoplifting, trespass, arson. I almost forgot indecent exposure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. Stop talking.
GRACE: Aren`t you a little afraid?
BINGHAM: I`m worried but my daughter is representing me. Her name is Jane. She`s my rock. And I have to say to all you eligible men out there, she`s single.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s pimping you out on national TV.
GRACE: Good to know. We`ll be back with folk hero Elaine Bingham.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LALAMA: Now, you know you can`t miss that. Be sure to tune into Drop Dead Diva this Sunday, 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on lifetime.
Tonight we remember marine sergeant Frank World, 25-years old from buffalo New York. Killed in action in Afghanistan. He served three tours of duty two of them are in Iraq. He was awarded the Purple Heart and Navy and Marine Core commendation medal.
His favorite things, playing the guitar, spending hours wrestling with his son. He is remembered as a great leader and amazing husband and father. He leaves behind his mother Susan, his sister Sarah, his widow Beth, his son Jacob and a daughter he never got to meet named Louie.
Frank World, a true American hero.
Before we go tonight, the NANCY GRACE show is saying goodbye to one of our big star, Kate. Kate is leaving her TV family heading back to school at Drew University for a degree in Psychology. Good luck to you, Kate, on your new journey.
We`ll see you Monday night at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Nancy will be back.
And thank you Nancy for this opportunity.
Until then. Good night everybody. Have a wonderful evening. Will see you soon.
END
