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Dr. Drew
Maryland Woman Missing in Aruba
Aired August 10, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Vanished in paradise. Secret lovers, mystery in Aruba. Is this another Natalee Holloway case?
Plus, millionaire mansion deaths. A suspected suicide, or could it be the perfect murder?
And we`ll get into tonight`s bombshell in the Michael Jackson death trial.
Let`s go figure it out.
Tonight, Aruban authorities call off the search for a missing Maryland woman whose alleged secret lover says she vanished while they were snorkeling in a place called the Baby Beach in Aruba.
Watch this, and we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Bombshell tonight. Another American girl goes missing. Robyn Gardner disappears without a trace from the very same resort town as Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An Aruban newspaper report said she went to Aruba to meet a man that she met online.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man she was traveling with says they went snorkeling, but Robyn never made it back to shore.
RICHARD FORESTER, ROBYN GARDNER`S BOYFRIEND: I just don`t think that she was snorkeling. And I feel in my heart that something happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police took him into custody when he tried to leave the area only four days after she went missing.
GRACE: Not a single witness can corroborate seeing Robyn Gardner at Baby Beach in snorkeling gear, or even in the water.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Parents, take note. Met a man that she met online. I don`t care if you`ve got adult children or adolescent children or young children, met someone online is a recipe for trouble.
She was staying -- listen to this -- of course, in the very same resort town where teenager Natalee Holloway disappeared in 2005.
Tonight, we`re asking, was Robyn having some sort of an affair with this guy? The man who was vacationing with Robyn is now behind bars on the Caribbean island.
Straight to my guests, Beth Holloway, Natalee Holloway`s mom and host of "Vanished" on Lifetime. She joins me by phone. Joran van der Sloot`s former attorney, Joe Tacopina, is in New York. CNN reporter Martin Savidge is live in Aruba. And Richard Forester, Robyn Gardner`s boyfriend, also joins us by phone.
Richard, I`m so sorry about this. But what is it you fear happened here?
FORESTER: Well, I fear something awful has happened. She has been missing now for eight days. And going on what I`m hearing about the man that she was there with makes me scared, lost, sad, angry. All of those things.
PINSKY: And Richard, let me ask you this. Is this something completely out of character for her, to run off with somebody that she met online? Were there any warning signs? Has she had mental health issues? And without exposing confidences, are there things you can tell us to help us understand how this happened?
FORESTER: I wish I knew. No, none of that is true. It`s completely unexpected.
We were in the process of looking for a place to live. That`s what we were supposed to do this weekend.
She had been living with me essentially for the past seven or eight months. She did keep an apartment in Frederick, Maryland. I live in Bethesda, Maryland. She stayed with me for the most part five or six nights a week. And this was a huge surprise to me.
PINSKY: How long have you known her, Richard?
FORESTER: About two-and-a-half years.
PINSKY: And has she ever cheated on you before? Has there been any difficulty in your relationship? Were you having trouble before this went down?
FORESTER: As far as cheating on me, no, not that I know of. We have only been exclusive since really January of this year.
PINSKY: OK. And did you think it was weird that she was running down to Aruba? Didn`t that kind of strike you as kind of peculiar if this is someone that didn`t do that kind of thing?
FORESTER: I was under the impression it was a family vacation.
PINSKY: Wow.
Beth Holloway, the eerie thing about this case is that, if I pronounce this right, Oranjestad, is the same resort town where your daughter vanished in 2005. And I imagine your search for her -- of course, they were very public.
How is your organization, the Natalee Holloway Resource Center, getting involved in this case?
BETH HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: Well, first of all, Richard made the call to the Natalee Holloway Resource Center on August the 8th, which was a great move on his part. We were able to immediately pull together some photos that Richard had given us.
And the biggest asset of the Natalee Holloway Resource Center is that we provide is we send out the media release. And as we al know, media is essential in helping to solicit tips and eyewitnesses. So we got that ball rolling through Richard`s efforts.
PINSKY: And Beth, I must say, it has to bring up all of those old feelings, even just seeing what Richard is going through. Have you been in contact with her family?
HOLLOWAY: I have not been in contact with Robyn`s family. And Richard has been communicating with the staff at the Natalee Holloway Resource Center. So we have just been -- I have just been working with the staff there to coordinate.
PINSKY: Has her family been involved with this?
HOLLOWAY: Her family has -- they have not -- no one at the Natalee Holloway Resource Center has spoken to Robyn`s family. I believe the only two people they have spoken to are the cousin and Richard himself.
PINSKY: OK.
Now, Gary Giordano told police he met Robyn on a dating Web site. But get this -- as we just heard, Robyn told her live-in boyfriend that this was just a gay friend.
That`s apparently straight ahead, that this guy, Gary, had a violent past. Two women have orders of protections against him. Some of his exes say he was rough and had hidden cameras in his house.
Listen to this. It`s one of Gary`s exes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was erratic. He was a little violent. Like, one time I happened to touch his hair by accident, and he, like, literally yanked my arm really hard, and it was really scary.
And he was, let`s say, quite physically aggressive, inappropriately. Apparently, he has cameras in his house where he videotapes people. And he has cameras all around his home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So let me clarify that again. Gary is someone she met on a dating Web site. She told her live-in boyfriend that he was a gay friend that was accompanying their family to a family trip. And now you just heard reports about violence and roughness.
Joe Tacopina, you represented Joran van der Sloot when he was accused of murdering Natalee Holloway in Aruba. What are Aruban authorities going to do to investigate this guy? And is this deja vu all over again?
JOE TACOPINA, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Well, I hope not for this family. And, you know, Beth and her family have gone through hell.
You know, all I can say is this -- unfortunately, the last time around, the Aruban authorities all but botched the investigation from the get-go. You know, I guess they really don`t have much experience in homicide investigations, as they proved five years ago, six years ago almost now.
But, you know, the bottom line is this -- you know, they need to sort of hone in on potential suspects right away and preserve evidence. And again, last time, that was a major problem with their investigation, which is why I still believe that case remains unsolved.
But, you know, it is unfortunately a little eerie. And hopefully this time around, the investigators will be a little more competent.
PINSKY: Well, Joe, let me sort of focus in on that a little bit. Are they not doing that by having jailed the one suspect? I guess this Gary fellow, I think, is behind bars, right?
TACOPINA: Yes. You know, simply jailing someone -- and, again, the laws down there are very different from our laws. You can detain someone there on mere suspicion, not with a charging instrument.
Here, obviously, in the United States, before you take someone`s liberty, you do need to accuse them of a crime. You know, there, they could detain them during the investigation, for better or for worse.
And the fact that they just grab somebody -- the likely suspect, right? By the way, the person that she was with, you know, and put him in a jail doesn`t mean they are doing an investigation.
What they really hopefully are doing this time is really speaking to as many people as possible, not honing in on one suspect and only looking for evidence against that one suspect, but really keeping their scope broad, at least initially, and then hoping in. Again, who knows what they are doing? And hopefully they have, you know, themselves on the right path.
And I know Beth and her organization are down there doing what they can do, which hopefully will help at least uncover certain things that perhaps the Aruban authorities are not equipped to uncover.
PINSKY: Got it.
This whole thing has given me -- it`s funny doing this show. I get sick to my stomach on a regular basis. And this is giving me that bad feeling again.
I want my viewers to take a look at this map of what`s called Baby Beach in Aruba.
Now, this lagoon is apparently manmade. Look at that. That`s clearly a bay. I mean, it`s a very highly protected zone.
So there are -- so people can swim there without any currents. That`s why they call it Baby Beach, because babies can swim there safely.
Now, this Gary fellow says the current was so strong, that it pulled them out to sea. So he tapped Robyn`s leg, swam back to shore, before realizing she wasn`t with him.
Martin, can you tell us about this spot? You are in Aruba now, yes?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s an area that many people do consider to be extremely safe when going into the water. There are some parts of the island where you would not dare to go, but that`s on the windward side.
Over there it is very sheltered. It is a popular beach. It`s a public beach, and it`s one that many of the locals tend to frequent.
So it`s an area where you would expect for people to go and enjoy themselves, and snorkeling is not a bad pastime. However, the problem is the story that authorities say they`re getting from Gary Giordano is not adding up, and that the information he provides them, sometimes he`s wavered on the account. In one account he said she may have been swept away by a current, which does not make sense with that place, or, in the other version, he said, well, he was swimming, he decided to go back to shore.
He taps her somewhere on her body. He heads back. And then, lo and behold, he comes out of the water and she`s not with him.
It`s those kind of variances that has authorities somewhat concerned. And, of course, he was the last to be with her before she disappears, which automatically places you under a certain amount of suspicion.
I will point out they have been more aggressive. I was here during the whole Natalee Holloway case. Authorities, much quick this time. The search, two helicopters, an airplane, divers underneath, boats on the water, people on the ground.
They were very quick to do that. Also very quick to bring in the solicitor general who is speaking for the prosecutor`s office. So they are quickly trying to get in front of this story with the media.
They have learned some lessons, at least when it comes to public relations. I can`t really tell you if they`ve learned a lot when it comes to investigations.
PINSKY: Well, certainly we`ll see with time.
Thank you for that report.
And thank you to my panel, who stays with me in this next segment.
Coming up, more on the mysterious disappearance of an American woman in Aruba. Did 35-year-old Robyn Gardner drown snorkeling, or shark attack, or was it something more sinister, which it`s sounding like?
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was going through your mind when you realized that this woman may have gone away with him and now she may be dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m still shaking, because I have children, and that could have been me. And at first, you know, I`m like, how could I have gone out with him more than once? But his behavior is so bizarre, that it was hard to wrap your mind around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORESTER: The last message I got from her was, "I love you. We`ll talk and sort things out when I get back."
I just don`t think that she was snorkeling. I feel in my heart that something happened at this person`s hand. All I could imagine is that while she was there, whatever was happening to her, she was screaming for me, and I wasn`t there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And tonight, she is missing in Aruba.
Do we have another Natalee Holloway-type mystery on our hands? It`s a beautiful blonde. She vanishes -- listen to this -- from the very same town as Natalee Holloway six years later.
Now, Richard Forester, whom you just saw there on that tape, that is Robyn`s boyfriend. He joins us by phone.
Now, Richard, you have said that she actually wouldn`t go in the water. She was the kind of person that didn`t even like to put her face in the water because it would mess up how she looked.
FORESTER: Well, I`ll tell you, she`s beautiful. She`s very concerned about her hair. She`s very concerned about her makeup.
She would rather sit by the pool, although at a place like that, I can understand her going to the beach, going into the water maybe to her waist. But she`s not going to go snorkeling. I know this 100 percent.
It`s not something of that interest to her, especially at 6:00 p.m., 6:30 at night, whenever it happened. She at that point would have had a couple of drinks, or she`s getting ready to go out. But I with 100 percent certainty can say that she was not in the water, whether snorkeling or wading out of water at that time of night.
PINSKY: And let me just put a fine point on this, Richard. Did you ever hear her talk about going to an island and snorkeling or ever talk about an interest in marine biology or anything like that?
FORESTER: I am a scuba diver. And I have offered to go on vacation and take her scuba diving, where she`s flat-our refused to go scuba diving. She said she might go snorkeling, but I know her "might," and that means no, she probably wouldn`t go snorkeling.
PINSKY: I want to ask you one other thing, Richard, because you`re a scuba diver, so you understand what I`m about to ask here. Did she have fins? Did she have flippers? What was the gear like?
FORESTER: No. She doesn`t --
PINSKY: No, I don`t mean does she have them in her possession. I mean, does this Gary guy, did he show up with fins? Was he having fins and snorkeling gear? And can you imagine if you had fins, a current in a baby bay, not a big deal, right?
FORESTER: Yes, right. From what I understand, he had his own equipment, but she didn`t. And she didn`t rent any from the dive shop that they went into. Apparently, they went into a dive shop but left with nothing.
PINSKY: Interesting.
FORESTER: He had his own gear, and she didn`t get anything.
PINSKY: This is all so troubling. And I want you to listen to this - - to who the -- Gary`s ex. He`s the prime suspect.
And we put this in earlier, and I heard it for the first time when you heard it. It was so troubling to me, I want to play it again and talk about it.
Here it goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was going through your mind when you realized that this woman may have gone away with him and now she may be dead?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m still shaking, because I have children, and that could have been me. And at first, you know, I`m like, how could I have gone out with him more than once? But his behavior is so bizarre, that it was hard to wrap your mind around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I want people to really listen to that, because that is very telling. That that is that woman`s instinct, having spent a little time with this guy, that is telling you something. I mean, think about that.
Those of you that are women at home that have been around people that are problematic know that it gets -- you feel it. You can be aware of it.
And she now is worried that this could have been her. Her children could have been without a mother. She is stunned that she got sucked into this guy`s web. And now we have a dead person.
Martin Savidge, I want to go to you. You`re in Aruba. What do we in fact know about this man`s past?
SAVIDGE: Well, in fact, that`s what authorities here are trying to figure out. And I asked them blatantly. I said, "Have you talked to American authorities? Have you investigated whatever record he may have in the United States?"
And they point out, well, it`s not so easy for them. You`re talking about two different countries. There`s diplomatic relations and there are proper channels that have to be followed.
They say any information they get, they first have to go through Washington, D.C. So it appears that they may not have the kind of information that you and many of your viewers are able to see, which is why they are relying on forensic information.
They have the rental vehicle. They impounded it. The next two days, they`ll be going through it carefully.
They have gone through the hotel room. They also have seized the electronic devices, at least two smartphones. They`ll be trying to go through those electronically.
But do they have the real expertise? Not here on this island. It might have to be sent to the Netherlands for that.
PINSKY: But it`s reassuring to hear that they are at least going through the steps that didn`t happen in the case of Natalee Holloway.
Now, again, Robyn`s boyfriend said he had contact with her on Facebook right before she disappeared. After she vanished, he noticed that she was still actively signed onto her Gmail account, then it`s signed off. He has said that that perhaps proves that someone was using her account.
Joe, do you think that`s true?
TACOPINA: Listen, guys, I`m listening to all this wild speculation, and some lady said, oh, I`m glad my kids didn`t get killed and he could have killed me, too. I mean, can we just take a step back for a second? This investigation is 24 hours old.
We`ve come to the conclusion that already this guy is a murderer, may have murdered others. You know, that someone else was on her Gmail account, that she would never go snorkeling.
I mean, let`s remember some of the past mistakes we made in other cases where we jumped to conclusions. I mean, look, these are all relevant facts and important facts to be discussing, but I don`t think we should come to a summary conclusion at this point that this guy is guilty of murder.
PINSKY: All right. Fair enough. That`s precisely why I will continue to stay on this.
Thank you to my panel.
And when we come back, you`ve got questions, I`ve got some answers.
And later, someone else has been implicated in Michael Jackson`s death. You`ll want to hear about it. Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TITO JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: Doctors take an oath to protect the human life, watch over human life. Why did he die under your care when you`re in the same space? That`s not the oath of a doctor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Tito Jackson with some strong words about the circumstances surrounding his brother`s death.
We are getting a ton of reaction to our segments on the upcoming Michael Jackson death trial. Some of you get very heated about this.
And just to be clear, I`m not trying to defend anybody. I think this whole thing is stunning and unbelievable in many ways. So I`m just trying to understand it.
Let`s all get together and figure out what happened, and how it happened and who did what. Let`s not rush to judgment on anything.
But, yes, it`s awful. I totally agree with that.
But let`s get to some of your calls. This is live.
Diane in Canada, you`re on the line. Go ahead.
DIANE, CANADA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Diane.
DIANE: In my opinion, I think Conrad Murray administered the fatal dose to Michael Jackson and should be punished to the full extent. Doctors have to be accountable for their administering and prescribing, especially to drug addicts. But my question is, with you being a doctor, what is the secret to prescribing drugs to drug addicts?
PINSKY: Wow. You just covered a lot of territory in that question, Diane.
And I`ll tell you, the one -- in the few minutes I have here, a few seconds, really, I would just say the one caveat is, if you have a family history of addiction, or you yourself have been an addict, and you have been put on an opiate pain medication or sleeping pill or anti-anxiety pill for appropriate reasons, your disease will be awakened, active, and plan for that. You are potentially in trouble.
Get off these things as quickly as possible. And if you are a person in recovery, keep your recovering peers next to you and around you, because your thinking will change, your motivation will change. It changes everything when you`re on these substances when you have this thing we call addiction. Now, not to say the medicines are bad, but it has a bad side- effect when someone with addiction takes them.
Kim is in Oklahoma.
Kim, what`s up?
KIM, OKLAHOMA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Kim.
KIM: I just have a general question. Why would a doctor give someone a sedative used for surgery in their home ever?
PINSKY: Yes, I know. Kim, that`s a -- to me, that is the most astonishing part about this.
You`re looking at Propofol here. And really, Diane had kind of the same question, is, you know, he administered this thing. Shouldn`t he be responsible for it?
And literally, when I first heard about this story, it was like somebody is telling me that a Martian landed in the middle of the street out here, the fact that a physician would take Propofol and give it to someone in their home. I had only seen Propofol myself in an ICU, in an emergency room, in an operating room.
Now, I know it exists outside of the hospital, but primarily the people who use it outside of the hospital are addicts, and it`s usually anesthesiologists, frankly, that can get their hands on it and use it outside the hospital. So, yes, that piece, just that piece, for me is really stunning.
Gage on Facebook writes, "Dr. Drew, you can say Michael Jackson was sucked into some vortex of stardom, but he still made a choice, and that`s what people should be looking at."
I`m not so sure, Gage. If Michael Jackson had addiction, we failed him by not being able to address that and breaking through the shell of enablers he had.
You heard Deepak Chopra talk about that on our show before. That is up to us as physicians to do that properly.
Now, thank you for your calls, guys.
Up next, a millionaire`s 6-year-old son suffers a fatal fall just days before the guy`s girlfriend is found bound and naked hanging in his mansion. We have got exclusive breaking news on this shocking story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): A historic mansion, a tragic accident, a suspicious death, and a millionaire with a history of violence. What happened at that Coronado Estate?
And later, bombshell in the Michael Jackson manslaughter case. Reports of a prescription drug scheme involving a different MJ physician. Will this doctor`s downfall be this one`s salvation?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Two unexplained deaths occur in the same Southern California mansion and just days apart. It`s a story that is as tragic as it is bizarre. And tonight, we have exclusive and shocking updates. First, here is what happened. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): It all started on July 11th when police say six- year-old Max Shacknai fell down the stairs at this 27-room mansion and was rushed to the hospital. Two days later, 32-year-old Rebecca Zahau was found naked, hanging from a balcony in the same home, her hands and feet bound. Pharmaceutical company CEO, Jonah Shacknai, was Max`s father and Zahau`s millionaire boyfriend.
The little boy died from his injuries. Mr. Shacknai says he wasn`t at home when Zahau died and what happened to her is a mystery. But law enforcement official now tells Radar Online, Zahau`s death looks, quote, "very, very suspicious."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): And joining me now is Jen Heger. She is Radar Online`s legal editor. Lonnie Coombs is a former Los Angeles County prosecutor. Scott Bond is a criminologist and assistant professor at Drew University. He studies the media. Jen, please give us the latest development?
JEN HEGER, LEGAL EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: The latest development which sources have told me within the last hour is that young Max Shacknai`s death, it was reported before that he had fallen down the stairs, and he was --
PINSKY: I just set it up for people. It was this big mansion. There`s sort of a central foyer like, and he sort of looked like he fell down from the second floor or something.
HEGER: He was found at the base of the stairs. So, people assumed that, perhaps, he had falled down the stairs, but you`re a doctor. You know that six-year-old little boys don`t --
PINSKY: They don`t down the stairs all the time, too, by the way.
HEGER: And they don`t die as a result of that.
PINSKY: Right.
HEGER: My sources have told me that it appears that Max Shacknai was sliding down the banister, unsupervised, and that he fell and hit his head and was then found unresponsive. So, this is, indeed, a very, very tragic accident.
PINSKY: Oh my. Now, just 48 hours ago, Jonah Shacknai publicly addressed the death of his son, Max and his girlfriend, Rebecca, for the first time. Jonah` statements apparently were made during a planned conference call with his executive staff of the pharmaceutical company where he is CEO. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF JONAH SHACKNAI, BOYFRIEND OF WOMAN KILLED IN MANSION DEATH: I expect very quickly to return to the normal work schedule at the office. School commences momentarily in Arizona. At this time, I have really been with the kids, waiting for school to begin, but as soon as that happens, I expect to be on my normal calendar in the office and doing all the things that I had done previously.
Obviously, at a time like this, one does a lot of introspective thinking, and it makes me appreciate that much more, although, I did already, how privileged I am to work with such a cohesive, capable, and experienced executive team at Medicis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jen, I guess you have some more information on that tape we just heard. It wasn`t to his staff that he made that call?
HEGER: It was to his staff, but it was also to his shareholders. What I don`t think most people realize is that Medicis is publicly held company. This was a planned quarterly earnings conference call which happens every quarter. So, the stock price actually plummeted after the initial reports of Rebecca and Max`s death. So, I think that Jonah taking part in the conference call was to reassure the investors and to actually - - the company posted a $150 profit in the third quarter.
PINSKY: The rest of the stock market caught up with his company now. Scott, he sounds rather calm in this call. I supposed he was talking to shareholders. He has to. But he must be living under an umbrella of suspicion. What`s your take?
SCOTT BONN, PH.D., CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, you have to feel for the gentleman assuming that he is innocent in both of these deaths. What a horrible thing to have to deal with. I mean, imagine the grief of this gentleman, losing your significant other and your child within days of one another. And the -- he does not even seem to be really a person of interest in the investigations.
And, Rebecca is a -- girlfriend`s family, he went to the funeral, and they embraced him there. They don`t seem to think that he was involved in her death whatsoever.
PINSKY: It`s interesting. In addition to all his grief, he has, you know, a multimillion dollar company has to manage. I mean, it`s really -- when we think about this child, and, you know, this is dad, he`s lost his son. It`s just a very, very sad case. You`re absolutely right, Scott. Now, Arizona police records, however, show a rocky relationship between Jonah and his ex-wife, Dina. Now, this is where this gets a little cloudier. Dina is Max`s mother, the little boy that died.
Now, both Jonah and Dina filed domestic disturbance reports against one another in 2008 and 2009, however, the former couple came together after the police reports were released and issued this joint statement. Here it is.
"While our marriage did not work out as either of us have planned or hoped, it did produce a wonderful son, Max, whom both of us loved very much. His loss is unimaginable. The release of the records as we grieve Max`s recent loss pains us greatly and is a distraction from the most important concern of honoring our beautiful son who lives in both of our hearts."
Loni, we, obviously, we have some history of domestic violence. Does it mean a lot to this case?
LONI COOMBS, FMR LA COUNTY PROSECUTOR: It absolutely does, especially because in this case, the allegations of abuse go back and forth. It`s not just against the husband. It`s against the ex-wife also. The police have been very clear from the beginning that Jonah is not a suspect in this case, but they haven`t said anything about the ex-wife. At the time that Max had this horrible accident, he was being watched by Rebecca, the girlfriend.
Rebecca and Jonah supposedly were in love and living together and supposedly going to get engaged. And then, two days later, she ends up being found hung, naked, hands tied, outside on a balcony where she can be found very quickly. Clearly, even though the police, sometimes, say it might be a suicide, and they have said that here, there`s no suicide note. She talked to her sister the night before and said she was very hopeful about Max.
She was going to text her family during the day about updates on Max. So, it doesn`t look like a suicide. And there are some people there that potentially could be suspects, both the ex-wife, who we have these allegations of prior violence, and the brother, who was the one who actually found Rebecca hanging there.
PINSKY: And then you also wonder, could she have been so distraught from the death of the little boy that she did do something impulsive, but she was found bound with electrical cords.
COOMBS: And naked. And we all agree, no woman is going to hang herself naked out in public to be found like that. plus, there was no suicide note. If it was out of distraught grief, you`d think she would have written this note (ph) saying I`m so sorry.
PINSKY: Yes. These guys are pretty funny about not wanting it to be seen.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Unless though, she was really, really -- Rachel, you could tell -- I want to give her a credit for this little theory. She -- Somebody I worked with "Celebrity Rehab." She is now in criminal investigations, and she said, unless, she really, really mad at him and trying to make it look like some sort of murder or something that she could pin or even a suicide, she could pin back on him.
COOMBS: Mad at who?
PINSKY: Shacknai.
COOMBS: Well, there`s no evidence -- yes, there`s no evidence of that that they were very close, and that`s what she was telling her family, that she wanted to support him and be there with him in the hospital.
PINSKY: Well, that`s what it seems like, anyway.
COOMBS: Yes.
PINSKY: So, question, whether she took her own life. Her sister, Mary, recently addressed that very question in a statement to CNN affiliate, KFMB, in San Diego. Here`s what she said. "Obviously, the investigation is not complete yet, but as far as what I know about my sister, my sister did not commit a suicide. My sister was not depressed. My sister was not frantic. My sister was planning to call my parents the next day and was planning to keep me posted about Max the next day."
Scott, we have the dead woman`s sister saying, and everyone at this table saying, suicide doesn`t seem likely. Does that statement make a difference to the investigators?
BONN: I think that all of the evidence is leaning in the direction that this was a wrongful death, meaning a homicide. And the Radar Online report that came out yesterday, in fact, suggested that law enforcement authorities are no longer looking at this case or moving away from this case as a potential suicide and saying that it`s very, very suspicious. And, the likelihood that a woman would commit suicide, hang herself in a public spectacle, as was mentioned, nude, is very, very unlikely.
Also, the Radar Online report indicated, and this is the first time that I had heard this, is that when Adam, the brother, found her hanging, that her wrists were bound to her ankles. So, essentially, in the vernacular, she hung tied like an animal.
PINSKY: I had not heard that either.
BONN: And if that`s the case --
PINSKY: Wow. I mean, to me, that starts to sound like a home invasion or something. Scott, in 15 seconds remaining, do you have a brief theory of your own?
BONN: Well, I studied patterns of serial killers, and this almost looks like staging. It looks like that this may have been some sort of a deliberate attempt at humiliation and in retribution of some sort. It smacks of sex and rage in my estimation based upon what we know at this point, but of course, we have to get the results from toxicology.
PINSKY: I`m so sorry. I`m running out of time. Should we be looking at a broader ring of suspects here? Or do any of the people that we know about fit what you`re profiling?
BONN: She was just recently divorced and changed her name back to her maiden name two months before she died. So, I might look in that direction as well.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Thank you to my panel.
New information in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial revealed as one key witness says he would not go along with -- get this -- an illegal plan to get Michael drugs. We will go live to the courthouse with the latest, and there is a tribute in the works for the King of Pop, but it`s already causing friction amongst the Jacksons. Details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S DERMATOLOGIST: Michael, at one time, had an addiction. And he went to England, and he withdrew that addiction at a secure setting where he went off of drugs altogether. And what I told Michael when I met him, in this present situation when I was seeing him, that I had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance level.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lawyers from both sides in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial ordered back to court today for another pretrial hearing, and there was a bombshell. An office manager for one of Michael`s other doctors, his dermatologist, I believe, says he was asked to commit a crime. You can see Jason Pfeiffer right there when he was interviewed last April on "Extra."
We are joined by Natisha Lance, producer for Nancy Grace. Of course, you all know it well, is our sister show here on HLN. Judge Larry Seidlin who is familiar with celebrity court cases. He presided over the custody hearing for Anna Nicole Smith`s body, and Mark Geragos here with me in the studio, one of Michael Jackson`s lawyers in his 2005 molestation trial.
Natisha, I want to go to you first. Jason Pfeiffer, the office manager for Michael`s dermatologist, says that Michael was getting medicines from multiple doctors, but that he was actually -- he, himself, was asked to commit what is effectively a felony. What did we learn today?
NATISHA LANCE, PRODUCER, NANCY GRACE: That`s right. Right. That`s right, Dr. Drew. What we are hearing today is this name coming up during this court hearing, Jason Pfeiffer. And we have now found out that Jason Pfeiffer was the former office manager for Dr. Arnold Klein, who was Michael Jackson`s dermatology, just as you said. Now, the thing here in this dynamic is that Dr. Klein back in April of this year had sued Jason Pfeiffer, claiming that he embezzled millions of dollars from him.
And in a counterclaim that was filed just a week ago in federal court, Jason Pfeiffer now says that Dr. Klein was providing powerful prescription medications to Michael Jackson under different names. He was asked to participate in this filing. He says that he did -- and he was also asked to keep his mouth shut about what was going on. It was to the point where Michael Jackson would have to be given assistance in order to get out to his car.
He wouldn`t be able to speak. There were several other things that were laid out, also allegations of homosexuality. None of these allegations have been confirmed at any point as of yet. But these are the allegations that were laid out in this court document and his counterclaim against Dr. Klein.
PINSKY: Interesting. Now, Mark Geragos was part of Michael Jackson`s defense team during the 2005 molestation case. He and Jackson parted ways during the proceedings in court, but, Mark appeared as a witness during the trial to give testimony on Michael Jackson`s behalf. Now, you knew Michael fairly well. This new defense witness basically claims that Michael was shopping.
There`s a lot in that. Let me say one thing, and you back me up on this for the viewers at home, which is, for a doctor to prescribe a medication to a patient under somebody else`s name, big no-no. Big no-no. Not only is the doctor accountable, I would say the pharmacy is accountable too, is it not?
MARK GERAGOS, FMR. MICHAEL JACKSON ATTORNEY: Well, that`s absolutely the case, but in LA, that`s -- it happens all the time.
PINSKY: Mark, I don`t care if it happens all the time. It`s not OK.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: On the west side of town, that is absolutely every single day.
PINSKY: That`s stunning.
GERAGOS: And it happens -- I can`t tell you how many times with how many different people, but the biggest problem the defense still has in this case, they can make him out to be the most addled addict in the world, but, ultimately, at the end of the day, the DA stands up and says, who cares? This is -- we`re giving propofol. You don`t give propofol outside of a hospital setting. If you`re not an anesthesiologist, this is nonsense. That`s the big hurdle that the defense has got.
PINSKY: And a lethal dose was administered.
GERAGOS: Look, have you ever seen propofol administered outside of a hospital?
PINSKY: About as frequently as I`ve seen an asteroid hit. Honest to goodness. That`s about what it feels like to me.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Sorry to interrupt. Now, Dr. Murray is charged with involuntary manslaughter. He`s accused of administering the fatal dose of propofol, which Mark and I are talking about here. That is the sedative. It`s a barbiturate that was ultimately the cause of Michael Jackson`s death. Now, from my listeners and viewers, I want to point this out that, you know, propofol with Ativan, which is what he got, which is a combination that is frankly lethal.
We never administer benzodiazepines and barb together, particularly in an unmonitored situation. That`s another asteroid hit for me. Hang on. Now, although, Murray is being crucified in many public spheres, one man does come to his defense, and that Robert Kistner. He is a former patient of Murray`s who says Murray saved his life, and apparently, Dr. Murray was a fine cardiologist. Robert, tell me why you think Dr. Murray is such a great doctor.
VOICE OF ROBERT KISTNER, FMR. PATIENT, DR. CONRAD MURRAY: OK. He saved my life on multiple occasions. I had a diagnosis that I had congestive heart failure and I was dying. I got a second opinion. He went in. He figured out what the problem really was. I`m still here today.
PINSKY: All right. So, he`s a good cardiologist.
KISTNER: Yes, he is. He is very thorough.
PINSKY: And I have heard that about him, but you can be a good cardiologist and not know really how to take care of a very sick, you know, mental health patient at home. I`m just saying. I`m not sure if Michael is or is not. I want to go on now to the judge that presided over the custody hearing of Anna Nicole Smith`s body. During that case, Judge Larry Seidlin was criticized for getting emotional at some point, using humors at others. I found it refreshing.
As with most celebrity court cases, however, all eyes were watching every move in the courthouse. Larry, I`ve got about a minute. Now that Michael Pastor (ph) seems like a no nonsense kind of guy, he`s concerned with keeping the trial from becoming a media circus by doing things like moving proceedings into his chambers. They`re not leaked to the media. Do you think this is an impossible task with somebody like Michael Jackson?
JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, PRESIDED OVER ANNA NICOLE SMITH CASE: No, no. The judge has to take control. He has to do what Shakespeare says, be true to yourself. Secondly, he should -- when he sequesters the jury, he has to really sequester himself also. He should not read about his case. He should not watch TV about his case. And thirdly, he has a jury. Mine, as you remember, was a judge trial.
I was the trier of fact. Here he has a jury, and he has to make sure he`s neutral for both sides in front of that jury. He has to be careful with any comments he makes in the open courtroom. And I think he can take control. It will be a circus outside the courtroom like it was during my trial. But inside that courtroom, you can hear a pin drop.
PINSKY: Thank you, Larry, and I hope you will, of course, come back and join us again. Thank you, Natisha. Mark stays with me.
Next, the Jackson family made a huge announcement today, but not all the family members are onboard with this. Are the Jacksons trying to use Michael even in his death to make more money? Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: There`s not a day that passes that I don`t think about my child, and he should be here, right now, but there was negligence of a doctor. And, it`s just hard. It`s really hard.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Katherine and Tito are planning yet another tribute to Michael Jackson. They did not make the announcement of who is going to be a part of it yet as I mistakenly said prior to the break. So far, we are hearing Randy and Jermaine say they are not onboard with this idea. Joe and La Toya think there was a conspiracy to kill Michael and that he was murdered.
Katherine is having problem with the conservators. It seems like there`s always a lot of stuff going on with this family. Now, Mark Geragos knows this family very well, and he represented Michael back in, I guess, 2005.
GERAGOS: Actually, 2004 and 2005.
PINSKY: Is this sort of typical with what goes on with them? Does that interfere with your ability to execute the case?
GERAGOS: I don`t think so. I don`t think that they`re that much different than any other family in terms of the dynamic. I mean, name a family that doesn`t have people who are feuding or dysfunctional to some degree.
PINSKY: Right.
GERAGOS: I mean, that`s what keeps you in business.
PINSKY: You too, strangely enough.
GERAGOS: Exactly. The same thing. So, and, you know, I`ve always had a great deal of respect for Katherine. I like her a lot. And I know Joe. And I see Randy from time to time still, and Jermaine on occasion.
PINSKY: Everyone that knows them thinks they`re lovely, lovely people.
GERAGOS: They are. There`s nothing that I would ever say bad about any of them. I mean, I like the family, and like any other family, they disagree about certain things and rightfully so.
PINSKY: There we go. Well, let me go take you back to -- you and I were having a more heated exchange a few minutes ago about what`s going on with prescription drugs, in this town, especially where people are getting other people`s drugs and what not. When --
GERAGOS: I don`t know if they get other people`s drugs. They get their own drugs under various people`s names.
PINSKY: Other people`s names which is a felony if I`m not mistaken?
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Well, they can charge it like that. I don`t know --
PINSKY: You`ve been cracking my support staff up here.
GERAGOS: Exactly.
PINSKY: So, it could be a felony, but it`s not right. It`s wrong. The board should be involved with this. The board medical --
GERAGOS: Well, if -- I`ll give you the counterargument to that. Yes, they probably should, but at the same time, you know, when you go in, if you`re somebody of some note, you`re a celebrity, or somebody famous, and you go in and your medical records, all of a sudden, are getting sold to some tabloid, I mean, how do you --
PINSKY: That`s another felony.
GERAGOS: How often do they prosecute that? And the reason they can`t is because of the first amendment. The tabloid will publish the information. (INAUDIBLE), for example. If you subpoena in the person who wrote the story, they`re going to say first amendment. That`s it. You`re not going to find out who did it. Now, there`s been a couple of prosecutions, but they`re very tough to make, and, so, you have to do something. There`s really no solution.
PINSKY: At least, Department of Consumer Affairs (ph) should be looking at how pharmacies are integrated, and these are sort of big pictures problems we have to solve.
GERAGOS: That would be great if this state wasn`t on the brink of bankruptcy, and there`s 710 doctors I read yesterday that are troubled that have had their hospital privileges suspended, and still (INAUDIBLE) effect.
PINSKY: All right. I`m now depressed.
GERAGOS: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. But, before we go --
GERAGOS: That`s OK. I`ll prescribe under a different name.
PINSKY: Fantastic. Before we go, I do want to comment on what we`ve been talking about for the past 60 minutes, not this particular conversation, because I have to still recover from that. We are asking and have been asking why a missing American woman in Aruba apparently lied to her boyfriend about where she was going.
The question, the actions of a millionaire whose girlfriend and son died in the same week, and we`re still trying to figure that one out.
We want to know what happened the day Michael Jackson died and what if anything his doctor had to do with it. These are high-profile examples of everyday human behavior. As Mark said, the Jacksons, not different from many other families. All day long, people make decisions. People do good things, bad things, some without consequence, some with, and the reason we`re all interested in this is this is the human experience.
It makes us question our own behavior, learn about our own behavior. It`s why we`re going to try to figure it out here together. Thank you for watching us tonight. It`s been an interesting program. I hope to see you next time.
END
