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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Search Called off for Robyn Gardner in Aruba
Aired August 10, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE GALANOS, HOST (voice-over): Another beautiful missing woman in Aruba. Cops say the man who she was with before her disappearance has a record of violence against women. Is the key to finding Robyn?
Also, a sibling crime spree ends in a high-speed chase and shootout.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, proud to say, we won. We continuously said that if these three fugitives wanted to battle with law enforcement, we would win that battle, and that`s what happened today.
GALANOS: I`ll have all the details of this mind-blowing pursuit.
Plus, the convicted polygamist leader`s shocking new booking photos. Warren Jeffs will never see the light of day, but is it really the end of sexual abuse in the FLDS Church? We`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL LOPEZ, ATTORNEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has been detained for -- as a suspect for a murder investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, Aruban authorities are once again investigating the disappearance of a beautiful young woman. Thirty-five- year-old Robyn Gardner was reported missing August 2.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t -- I can`t even explain. It`s been six days. All I can imagine is that, while she was there, whatever was happening to her, she was screaming for me, and I wasn`t there.
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GALANOS: Tonight, mystery in Aruba as police try and figure out what happened to a beautiful young American tourist who`s been missing for a week now.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos in tonight for Jane Velez- Mitchell.
Thirty-five-year-old Robyn Gardner vanished on the resort island a week ago. She traveled to Aruba with this man, 50-year-old Gary Giordano, who, it turns out, has a history of domestic violence charges, protective orders against him. Maryland cops gave us this mug shot from a previous arrest.
Now, Giordano told police Robyn disappeared in the water while they were snorkeling. Here he is in Aruba, walking with investigators. Giordano was arrested at the airport when he tried to fly home, but he`s not been charged with a crime at this point. Even his lawyer is calling Giordano a suspect in Robyn`s disappearance.
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LOPEZ: We asked, of his stay in Aruba, to be specific as to just -- if they needed for him to stay a little bit longer. They didn`t answer it, and on his way to the airport or at the airport, they detained him for -- as a suspect for murder.
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GALANOS: The search parties have scoured the beaches, trying to find Robyn, but today they`ve ended the search. They`ve also seized her computer and iPad, looking for clues here. But is the biggest clue the traveling companion, Gary Giordano? What more does he know?
I`m taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
Straight out to CNN`s Martin Savidge, just arrived in Aruba today. Martin, good to see you. It`s got to be deja vu for you, since you were also in Aruba covering Natalee Holloway. Here we go again. What`s the latest with Robyn Gardner?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you`re absolutely right about that, Mike. Here we are, standing outside of the prosecutor`s office, which is so familiar to so many Americans, because for so many years, this where the case -- where Natalee Holloway was focused.
But now it is Robyn Gardner here, and what has happened to her. Where is she? And what is going on with Gary Giordano, who was the man who she was traveling with.
Here`s the problem authorities say they have. The story that he is telling them -- that is the snorkeling adventure that they go on on Baby Beach. Two of them go into the water. Only he comes out of the water. They are having a hard time trying to confirm that through anyone else. They only have his story. No witnesses show them there or saw him there snorkeling on the day that she vanishes.
There is also the problem that now they`re going to look at forensic information to see if anything there gibes with his story. They have impounded the rental car that the couple was using. They will investigate it forensically over the next few days. You`ve already pointed out they`ve got the electronics, at least two smart phones and maybe an iPad.
This is going to require some more sophisticated analyzation [SIC]. It will have to go to Curacao. It they don`t have the expertise there, it may go to the Netherlands. What I`m telling you is it could be some time before they get answers from that.
So all of this, including the searching of the hotel room, which ironically, the hotel, right next door to the hotel where Natalee Holloway was staying six years ago when she vanished. We go right back to the similarities. They are indeed striking.
GALANOS: They are striking, they are eerie. Marty, I want to stay with you. What story is Gary Giordano telling concerning this snorkeling adventure? Because, you know, you`re kind of wondering here of a place called Baby Beach. Doesn`t sound like it`s the roughest of waters.
SAVIDGE: No, in fact, it got its name because it`s supposedly the calmest of waters. A place, say, you would take your baby to the beach there. And this is why his story, at least at one point, he said that he thought perhaps a current had taken her away. It struck people here as saying that doesn`t make a lot of sense, because that beach is not known for having this currents.
He said the two of them went into the water. They were swimming along, and then at one point, he decided to head back to the beach. That he touched her in some way, tapped her on the foot, but indicated that`s what he was doing. He swims back to the beach. And then he says when he gets out of the water, he was surprised to see that she did not follow him and she is not there.
The 911 call that he makes, starting the whole chain of events here, which was on August 2 comes in at 6:29. That, too, has raised some eyebrows. It gets dark. And especially if you`re snorkeling, you`re not going to see too much when the daylight begins to dim. What were they really doing out there at that particular time? It`s another question among many that`s being asked here on the island.
GALANOS: OK. Let`s bring in Marc Benson, Dan`s (ph) director from Aruba. +Harold, what more can you tell us about the stories you`re hearing? What witnesses are saying who may or may not have seen them snorkeling in that area?
MARC BENSON, DIRECTOR, "ARUBA HERALD" (via phone): Well, Gary arrived together with Robyn Sunday, July 31. And he states to the police that on Monday, the day before Robyn went missing, they already went to this area, the Baby Beach area, the Nike Beach area where they actually went snorkeling. They returned the next day, Tuesday. And he said that then they went to snorkel and when she was in the water and he gave her a sign to come back to shore, and he said when he came back to shore, he did not see her.
The only witnesses that have seen them say that they were at the area. But there are no witnesses saying they saw them in the actual water.
GALANOS: Hey, Marty, are there any -- is there snorkeling equipment recovered? Because you`ve got the boyfriend here in the states saying she didn`t even like to snorkel.
SAVIDGE: Right. Well, Gary Giordano has his own snorkeling gear. They don`t have any reports of her renting snorkeling gear. That`s not to say it didn`t happen. It`s just to say that so far in this investigation they have not found evidence of it, and they have not seen any of that equipment wash up on shore.
GALANOS: Joining us, criminal profiler Pat Brown.
Pat, good to see you again. All right, Pat. We`re getting some of the last communications before Robyn goes missing. And again, this is through the boyfriend here in the States. Mr. Forrester saying before she leaves, you know, they had some sort of a spat. She says, "I love you. We`ll work things out when I get back."
And then there`s one last communication. And this is hours before she goes missing. And forgive my British, but there it is. She posts, "This sucks." And that`s the last. He posts back something like, "What do you mean by that?" and never hears from her again.
Pat, how frightening is it that that`s the last communication? She goes missing hours later.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, no explanation for what sucks. You have to think it`s something fairly unpleasant going on. And she`s with a person who apparently is very unpleasant himself. And I only wish that Robyn had gone online, because Maryland has an online criminal database, and all you have to do is go in there and check his name, and she would have come up with the criminal record he had. Apparently, she did not do this or she didn`t feel that it was a big deal, and so she went off with someone who was less than quality people. And unfortunately, it`s not looking good at this point.
GALANOS: Let`s go over it, Pat. You just mentioned his criminal record. We don`t want to convict anybody here, but it`s certainly red flag city when you`re talking about domestic violence charges. There is multiple orders, multiple orders of protection against him. We`re not talking about one, multiple. This is from people from what we gathered dated him online. An ex-wife that he had divorced. Pat, talk about those red flags.
BROWN: Well, from what we`re hearing from the women, he was big on control. He had cameras around his house, cameras outside of his house. He got angry if you touched him when he didn`t want to be touched. So we have a guy with control problems, power problems, and rage problems.
So perhaps something was going wrong between Robyn and him when they were down there. That`s why she said it sucks. Maybe they had an argument. And he doesn`t like it.
Now, what`s going to be difficult in this particular instance, let`s assume something did happen to her that wasn`t an accident. Let`s assume she was drowned, for example, by someone else`s hand. One of the most difficult crimes to prosecute, because how do you prove somebody drowned a person rather than drowned on their own?
But if she didn`t drown, if her body is found elsewhere and there`s evidence found elsewhere, the hotel room or vehicle, then there`s a little more hope of prosecuting somebody.
GALANOS: OK. We mentioned, this is another woman, let`s listen, Pat, another woman who dated Giordano online. Bottom line, the guy is bad news. Let`s listen.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was erratic. He was a little violent. Like one time I happened to touch his hair by accident, and he, like, literally, like, yanked my arm really hard. It was, like, really scary. And he was quite physically aggressive inappropriately. Apparently, he has cameras in his house where he videotapes people, and he has cameras all around his home.
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GALANOS: We`re going to talk about that when we come back. Cameras around the home. We`ve got callers waiting. Taking your calls: 1-877-JVM- SAYS.
Another big story we want to get to today. That terrible trio, the siblings, the Dougherty gang. Did they want to go out in a blaze of glory? Yes. A crash and some gun play. More from Aruba. What happened to Robyn Gardner? Call me up.
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I just don`t think she was snorkeling. I feel in my heart that something happened at this person`s hand.
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LOPEZ: We knew each other for a couple of years already and as friends. They met each other on a dating site. And after that, they had, they spoke with each other. They saw each other two times a month, and they had good contact with each other through the telephone.
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GALANOS: That was the attorney for Gary Giordano. He`s being held in an Aruban jail right now. He`s not been charged with a crime. He was in Aruba with Robyn Gardner. Some call him a traveling companion. Again, she vanished a week ago. He was with her, and police obviously have a lot of questions.
Before the break, we were just talking about and listening to a woman who had met Mr. Giordano online and said that -- pretty frightening, to paraphrase here. He was a little rough with her. And also mentioned there about video cameras in the home.
We`re just getting this in. Remember, I`m going to read this here. Paul Starks is with the Montgomery County Police Department, saying this. Just talked to our people moments ago, saying he was going to serve a search warrant in May of 2010 at Giordano`s residents.
Apparently, this guy would go online, get to know women in their late 40s who were in good shape, attractive women. After he would meet them online, they would meet in person a couple of times, go back to his house and have consensual sex. But what they didn`t know, is to what that woman was just talking about, they were being videotaped and audiotaped having sex. He would get rough with them, would beat them during sex. Wow. And some of these women were reluctant to come forward, and now some of these women have lawyered up.
Got to go to Pat Brown on this. Again, I don`t want to convict anybody, but that`s what we`re getting. We`re just getting that word. It`s going together, isn`t it, Pat? The protection orders, the video cameras. Now we`re hearing this.
BROWN: Now we`re hearing that he`s really, really creepy. We`re hearing that, essentially, he`s a sex predator, according to this information. That he has a sadistic edge to him. So he`s a sadistic sex predator, which makes hmm extremely dangerous.
And I don`t buy for a minute that he was a traveling companion to Robyn. This kind of man, the only reason he`s going to be around a woman is to lure her into exactly what he wants, which in his case is some kind of rough sex. So he had already hooked up with her in some way. So I don`t believe the traveling part. I believe he was there for her for another reason. And maybe she didn`t like what he was wanting her to do.
GALANOS: Wow. OK. Let`s bring in Susan Fein, legal expert here, as we talk about what`s going on. Let`s get back, Susan, here. What`s going on in Aruba? Again, I would say it`s a red flag, again, when you`re whatever you want to call, a traveling companion or not, the person you go with in Aruba goes missing and you`re going to leave?
SUSAN FEIN, LEGAL EXPERT: It`s troubling this woman has completely disappeared without a trace and there are absolutely no clues. His side of that story is that he was told he wasn`t a suspect and he was thought he was free to leave. The last guy that got on a plane to try to go somewhere was DSK and look what happened to him.
But I think we have to be very, very careful here, because if we start putting pieces together that seem like they fit and they seem like they sound right, we could end up with nothing. We` seen that in another famous case, the Casey Anthony case, where it seemed like all the pieces went together, but there was a big hole in the middle and there was a big zero at the end of the that case.
So I think we have to be very, very careful both in the media coverage of this and in our analysis of this, which isn`t to say that we have to find out what happened to this woman who has completely disappeared, but we have to be careful here.
GALANOS: But they are piece -- I mean, this is early, and you`re very right. We`re going to be responsible here, but man, that`s a road we`re going down, as these things add up.
SAVIDGE: I want to go back to Marty Savidge, again, who`s in Aruba. Marty, we`re talking about some of these pieces here. And some disturbing notes about his behavior in Maryland. Are people in Aruba talking about any of that yet?
SAVIDGE: Well, they aren`t on the street, but it is a real question that I put to investigators. Have they been communicating with people in the United States law enforcement. It`s certainly a key indicator as to what kind of character we`re dealing with as to is he a person to be believed, does he have a history of domestic violence, which apparently he does.
So when I asked them have they been talking to official channels in Washington, they indicated that they have. They also officially say that they`ve been talking with unofficial channels. I`m not sure exactly what that means. But they are reaching out in the United States to try to find out more about the man they are currently detaining.
GALANOS: OK. Thanks. We`re taking calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS.
Kate`s with us, Pennsylvania. Hey, Kate, y our comment or question?
CALLER: Hi, Mike. Thanks for taking my call. I can`t help but wonder, first of all, authorities are completely checking into this man`s background. And people just don`t disappear into thin air like this without a trace. I`m wondering if there could be some trafficking involved here.
GALANOS: Pat Brown, from what you`re seeing, and some of the details we`re getting, trafficking, are we seeing that at all?
BROWN: No, Mike. This is kind of a -- it`s been an exaggerated, the sex trafficking. Sex trafficking does exist, but the fact is, in our country here, and in the Caribbean, you do not have to kidnap blond women. There are many blonde women who will go into the sex business without having to do all that extra work. So in this case, I do not think this would have anything to do with it.
GALANOS: Again, we`re getting disturbing details. Paul Starks, captain with Montgomery County Police, saying he`s going to serve a warrant to Mr. Giordano to his house in May 2010. Basically, again, paraphrase here. Meet attractive women in their 40s. They`d meet, have consensual sex back at his house. And we`re finding out we also have someone who dated him online, said there were cameras at his house.
And then what gets more disturbing, talking about how rough he would get and beat them either during or after sex. That`s some of the reporting that we`re getting right now.
Marty, before we let you go, as Mr. Giordano has told his story, are his stories adding up? Is his story changing as time goes on?
SAVIDGE: Well, his story is definitely not adding up in the eyes of authorities, which is why they`re trying to find forensic information, something that either will prove what he says or disproves it without any question.
A couple of things to point out here, because we obviously draw the -- the careful equation of the Natalee Holloway case of 2006. Authorities here appear to be much more aggressive in the early stages of their investigation. We had two helicopters in the air. We had an airplane flying overhead, divers in the water, and boats on top of the water.
So very quickly, they`re out front trying to search. On top of that, they brought in their top guns when it comes to P.R., talking and interacting with the media. They are trying to look like they`re ahead of this, not behind it.
GALANOS: I would like to thank our panel. We`re gong to stay on this story on ISSUES. more coming up, Michael Jackson, what`s the late west his case? Plus, it`s two times stronger when wet versus the leading competitive brand.
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MICHAEL JACKSON, KING OF POP: I`ll be performing the songs my fans want to hear. This is it. I mean, this is really -- this is the final -- this is the final curtain call.
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GALANOS: It`s so sad, when we see him and what may have been. What a great entertainer he was on that front.
Let`s get to the matter at hand. The trial is coming up against Dr. Conrad Murray, judge clearing the way for Michael Jackson`s manslaughter trial of Dr. Murray to begin now, believe it or not, in less than 30 days.
If anyone thought this case could be delayed any more, the no-nonsense judge saying, "No way."
Prosecution previously complained that information for nearly 100 witnesses was not disclosed on the defense list. Well, today defense lawyers met the deadline to hand over those documents.
Let`s go straight out to Natisha Lance, producer from the "Nancy Grace Show," who joins us once again from outside the Los Angeles courthouse.
No Judge No Nonsense. I guess Belvin Perry saying we are on schedule. And basically saying what, that both sides have all the info they need here, Natisha?
NATISHA LANCE, PRODUCER, "NANCY GRACE SHOW": Right. Both sides have met their discovery obligation, is what the judge said today. And they are going forward. Jury selection will begin on September 8. Opening statements set to begin the week of September 26.
And you know, Mike, just as you said, we were here today in court just hours ago. Because the prosecution says that the defense did not hand over specific information about 76 potential witnesses, statements from those witnesses.
Well, now the prosecution says that they have that clarity, they have all the information that they need. And they will be going forward.
GALANOS: OK. The name mentioned, you and I talked about it earlier in the day. Jason Pfeiffer, seen in a YouTube clip. His name comes up in court. Who is Jason Pfeiffer? And how much are we going to hear this name as this trial, this saga goes forward?
LANCE: Well, we could potentially hear a lot from him, Mike, if he becomes a witness who goes on during the trial. But right now, he`s just a potential witness. The defense will question tomorrow or Friday and then that information will be handed over to the prosecution.
But Jason Pfeifer is a former office manager for Dr. Arnold Klein. And Dr. Arnold Klein, Mike, as you remember, he was the former dermatologist for Michael Jackson.
Now, the interesting thing to hear about these two and their dynamic is Dr. Klein sued Jason Pfeiffer in April of this year, saying that he embezzled millions of dollars from him. Well, just last week, in federal court, Jason Pfeiffer filed documents claiming that not only did Arnold Klein prescribe prescription medication to Michael Jackson under different names, but also some other things were in that -- in those documents that allege homosexuality and things of that nature that we can`t talk about on television. But really startling stuff coming out of those documents. So he could potentially be a very important witness for the defense in this case if he is called during trial.
GALANOS: Real quick. We`ve got about 30 seconds. Don`t you think that`s what the defense is going to do: make this about every other doctor except Conrad Murray. Make it about Klein, everybody else who dated Michael Jackson any prescription medication.
KLEIN: I do, Mike. I think that they are going to try to sway the attention away from Dr. Conrad Murray and place the blame on Michael Jackson, saying that he had access to tons of prescription drugs, perhaps even some drugs that Dr. Murray didn`t even know that he had, and that could have been what killed him. Even Michael Jackson, the theory has been floated out there -- may have been the one to gave himself that lethal dosage of Propofol himself.
SAVIDGE: So it`s going to be tough for the offense to overcome that hurdle at that time lime.
Nice work, good talking to you.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These three were very, very dangerous people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A man hunt is under way in several states for two brothers and their sister.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Units, copy information on robbery suspects out of Georgia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had been on the run for a week, plenty of time Sgt. Nocco (ph) says for them to travel from Georgia to Colorado.
NOCCO: Law enforcement agencies engaged them, fired back. Their vehicle flipped, Lee Grace was injured in that gun battle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The brothers had a large arsenal of guns and used this sheet metal as target practice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Only mom knows what good people you are inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots were fired.
NOCCO: I`m proud to say we won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE GALANOS, HLN GUEST HOST: Well put and we`re thankful for it that the shooting siblings that led the feds on a national manhunt has come to a bloody end.
Hi again, everybody. Mike Galanos, in for Jane Velez-Mitchell.
The Dougherty gang, two brothers and a sister, now in police custody; there they are. Still wonder why -- look at them, in their 20s and this is what they`re going to be up to. All right. We`ll get in to that. They did not go down without a fight.
Last week, as this began, they allegedly shot at police in Florida. They`re going 100 miles-an-hour in Florida, a cop tries to pull them over. Next thing you know they`re shooting 20 rounds at the poor officer. Then they`re accused of going to Valdosta, Georgia and they`re brandishing the AK-47, firing that thing in the air as they`re robbing a bank.
Since then for the most part, pretty silent until last night when news broke right here on ISSUES.
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JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: You`ve got some new breaking information. Give us what you got.
STEPHEN EMMETT, FBI ATLANTA SPECIAL AGENT: Well, we have a credible sighting in the Colorado Springs, Colorado area. We got that just before I came on air with your show. We have a Texas license plate that was stolen out of Texarkana, Texas, on the night of August 4. It`s LCS-909. That`s LCS-909 that we now believe is on that white Subaru vehicle.
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GALANOS: That information dead on. So this morning, authorities in Colorado spotted their getaway car, that same white Subaru and took off in hot pursuit. Listen to this.
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NOCCO: They`re speeding, the Colorado state patrol attempted to pull them over. In that attempt to pull them over, the Doughertys went back to their MO and they started shooting at law enforcement. Colorado state patrol along with other law enforcement agencies engaged them, fired back. Their vehicle flipped. From my understanding Lee Grace was injured in that gun battle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: Lee Grace Dougherty, again, she`s the 29-year-old sister -- oldest member of the gang. Shot in the leg, taken to a hospital, expected to survive.
I`m taking your calls on this one. 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586- 7297.
Let`s go straight out to Pueblo County Sheriff Kirk Taylor. Kirk you`re on the ground, you and I spoke earlier as this just wrapped up. How -- ok, we got word as mentioned that they were at an REI buying some camping equipment in the Colorado area. Then they`re spotted at a Wal- Mart. Pick it up from there. How did you guys zero in on this threesome?
KIRK TAYLOR, PUEBLO COUNTY SHERIFF (via telephone): Well, they were spotted at the Wal-Mart Canyon City and that information was aired out early this morning. After that, we got a phone call from an individual up in the San Isabel National Forest that said that they saw a vehicle matching the description backed into a parking spot next to a camping site up in the wilderness area.
At that point I sent my civil fugitive team and some other deputies from the tactical unit up to try to apprehend them. On the way up there, one of the routes to take to go to the national forest is 25 South about 20 miles and then west.
At the exit, one of my deputies observed the vehicle at a Subway sandwich place.
GALANOS: Yes. All right. And we`re looking at some of the pictures of the aftermath, the crash. One of the Doughertys is out, immediately apprehended and we know shots fired. All three apprehended at this point.
Let`s go to Steve Moore, former FBI agent; Steve, take us inside here. You`re FBI, you`re law enforcement, and you know this terrible trio is loaded for bear. How do you plan for this? Now you see them at the Wal- Mart. Now it`s chase time. How do you gear up for that?
STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, what you do is you try and get the word out to departments like the one that took them down. You`re not going to have enough FBI agents to cover every road, every exit.
From what I`m seeing here, this was just an example of excellent police work. What you have is a group of people seeing -- a group of officers seeing an MO, seeing a vehicle, and cutting off the logical routes, going towards them with caution.
I thought this was just excellent. And that`s what the team work is, where the FBI -- we may follow the thing in a macro sense. But when it comes right down to it on the street, more often than not it`s not the FBI that gets to them first. It`s the uniformed officers that go out and do something remarkable like this.
GALANOS: Yes. Again, congratulations. When you`re seeing text messages from Ryan, the youngest, the 21-year-old to his mom basically saying "Hey, everybody`s got to die," you know they`re thinking they`re loaded for bear and they`re going to go out in a blaze of glory and sure enough, they fired shots.
Let`s bring back our criminal profiler, Pat Brown. Pat, again, we`re talking about a dangerous group of young adults, these siblings here. Start with the youngest, Ryan Dougherty, 14 felonies since 2007. And most recently, slapped with 10, 12 years probation for sending sext messages to an 11-year-old. And then he`s all upset because he`s got to wear the ankle bracelet and he has to register as a sex offender.
I mean with all that said, yes, they`re dangerous, they`re not choir boys and girls here, but is that the motive? He was upset because he was going to be a sex offender? What do you see in here Pat?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I thought that was a really ridiculous statement. Yes, he`s upset that he wasn`t going to get to see his baby because he was on probation.
GALANOS: Right.
BROWN: So hey, let me cut it off and go on a crime spree instead. That will really help me out. Really what we`ve got here is three people with not the highest IQ nor the highest criminal IQ. Thank God because they obviously get caught a lot. He`s got that long felony record. And the sister has six felonies herself and a bunch of misdemeanors as well.
They don`t get away with stuff that much. My guess, what their biggest problem is that they had bad behavior early on in life and it was exciting to them. So they always like that adrenaline rush so they moved on up into all these other activities.
Lice Grace says, the sister, she goes I like shooting men and, you know, committing mayhem. I mean she wants that thrill out of life. And I guess going to work in a regular job doing regular stuff is just boring.
So the three of them just said the heck with it, we`re going to go out and have that fun.
GALANOS: Ok. You mentioned it; we`ve got to show it again. This is Lee Grace, 29 years old on her Flickr account, I believe. It`s just astonishing.
Here`s this posting, "I have a huge crazy family. I love to farm, shoot guys and wreck cars." I think she went on to say she`s a redneck and proud of it.
BROWN: I don`t know what she was farming because they had those bunkers. I think she was farming marijuana. But she obviously --
GALANOS: That`s right. That was the thought there.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: -- likes to have a lot of fun.
GALANOS: So let`s get back to the question of motive. And I asked an FBI spokesperson, Dave Joly here. Let`s see what he got to say Steve. He had any clue.
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DAVE JOLY, FBI SPOKESPERSON, COLORADO: They have been known to engage law enforcement with long guns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Motive -- do you have a motive?
JOLY: Desperation, we`re unsure at this point. We`re waiting for them. Once hopefully they`re apprehended we`ll be able to get more of that information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: Ok. Let`s go back to Sheriff Kirk Taylor there in Pueblo County in Colorado. Kirk, are you hearing anything about motive at all?
TAYLOR: No, we`re really not. Like I said, we -- we happened upon them down at exit 74. We engaged with the state patrol. They took over the chase, you know, and subsequent actions that happened afterwards.
GALANOS: Got it.
Pat, we kind of talked about Ryan. Here`s this guy. He`s going to be a dad in a matter of days. I`m not even sure, his girlfriend may have already given birth. So you figures, come on, you know. And you`re talking about seeing your child. You figure he may have something to live for. Right?
And then the 29-year-old, Lee Grace, she`s supposed to have some fiance, some 45-year-old math teacher. There`s a big puzzle piece missing, isn`t it here, when you talk about what the heck they`re doing or why they`re doing it?
BROWN: Well, actually we`re looking at a lot of personality disorders. We`re having Ryan here is supposedly having a baby, but meanwhile he`s, you know, messing around with an 11-year-old.
We have Lee Grace, she`s supposedly has this guy but hey, she just disappears so the wedding is off on that. We have people who really don`t care about other people. I think they liked each other because that`s what you have when you have a gang or a little mob. You like each other because you support each other.
But I think there is motive. I think the motive is anti-authority. I think Ryan was mad that the authorities were telling him what to do. Maybe Lee Grace didn`t like the fact that some guy was telling her what to do. And they were going out after the cops, after authority having their wild ride. I think they watched way too much "Fast and Furious"; that`s personally my opinion.
GALANOS: You know, we just look at that map there. Again, starting with the high-speed chase and firing 20 rounds at a cop in Florida. Bank robbery in Georgia; they go steal the license plate in Texarkana, then obviously this thing, thankfully wraps up.
And again, no innocent bystanders hurt, no law enforcement hurt, so thankful for that.
But Pat you mentioned it and we want to talk about this bunker that we know. At least the two brothers, they made it out of a couple of semi- trailers. And there it is as they go down in there. You mention maybe they were growing some pot down there.
Let me get Steve Moore in on this, former FBI agent; Steve you see this, what do you read from these brothers and this bunker issue here?
MOORE: I read from that that there was not going to be a limit to what they were going to do. Some of the weapons I saw, I saw the AK-47. I saw they also had a Mack, either a 10 or 11. These people were armed for bear.
Fortunately, you know, having a gun doesn`t make you able to shoot it any more than having a violin lets you know how to play it. But these people were punks. They shouldn`t be given the moniker of a gang. And frankly, I think that they were all controlled by Lee Grace. She seemed to have this control over them. And who came out shooting when the car flipped? She did. So I think that`s what we`re dealing with.
GALANOS: And really a topic and we could go on another ten minutes. Why aren`t they behind bars -- 20 felonies between them? We mention Ryan himself, 14. Incredible stuff. Again, thankfully it ends without incident.
Kirk Taylor, sheriff there in Pueblo County, great job, congratulations to you guys; you bring them down without incident.
Coming up, Warren Jeffs and new frightening pictures; you`re not going to believe what this guy looks like as he begins his life behind bars.
I`m taking your calls, 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
WARREN JEFFS, FLDS LEADER: The woman if she`s not careful will be overbearing and always ask permission or what she wants. And ladies, build up your husbands by being submissive.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty on both counts.
ERIC NICHOLS, PROSECUTOR: Justice has arrived for Warren Steve Jeffs who we expect to spend the rest of his life in prison.
CHRISTI PAUL, HOST, "IN SESSION": His own documentations and writings essentially did him in. He went from prophet to rapist in a matter of ten seconds.
ELISSA WALL, FLDS VICTIM: He started to undress me and undress himself. I was crying and I was like "Please, I don`t want what you`re doing. It doesn`t feel right. Please stop."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s been murdering the souls of all these children. These kids don`t know whether they`re up or whether they`re down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He would come up behind me while I was in a group and seize me by the back of the neck and lean down and whisper in my ear, "Are you keeping sweet or do you need to be punished?"
BRENT JEFFS, FLDS VICTIM: This day has come and I cannot tell you how joyous I am to finally see this man put where he belongs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: Tonight, the new face of polygamist leader Warren Jeffs; you`re not going to believe these pictures. These are the first pictures to emerge showing Jeffs -- look at him -- barely recognize him. This is as he begins his new life behind bars, facing that life sentence for sexually assaulting young girls as young as 12.
The new mug shots of this religious leader, again the shaved head, sunken face, pale skin. It`s haunting. But could this pedophile continue to lead his cult from behind bars? I mean it`s terrifying, but that`s what many believe.
How could this happen? Despite all the horror stories that are now surfacing of more alleged abuse. Jeff`s niece spoke out on "Good Morning America" explaining just how strong his hold is on this community.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERUSHA JEFFS, WARREN JEFF`S NIECE: You didn`t disobey Warren. You did everything Warren said. Nothing that he did was ever wrong, ever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: That`s haunting. "You didn`t disobey Warren."
Again I`m taking your calls, 1-877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297.
Straight out to my very special guest: Carolyn Jessop, former FLDS member who escaped a polygamous marriage. She also is the author of the book, books -- plural -- "Escape" and "Triumph". Carolyn, again, I believe you`re a hero for standing up, writing books, shining a light.
I`ve got to get your take, though, first off on those pictures. To see Warren Jeffs like that. Do you think that he or those that still support him will play these pictures to say look at our poor prophet. They`ve stripped him, he`s pale, he`s gaunt, but he`s still our prophet?
CAROLYN JESSOP, AUTHOR, "ESCAPE": That may be one picture that the community will be allowed to see. Unfortunately the rest of the evidence that came out in trial, this community will not be allowed near. They`ve all been told it`s spiritual death. It`s the end of it. Any form of a salvation if they witness any of the evidence that has been presented in this trial.
And the pictures to me just are creepy. He`s put on a show that he`s humbled and he`s a martyred prophet. He`s been persecuted. But the look that he has on his face is more of a look of defiance or anger. It`s a look I`ve seen so many times when somebody does something that he doesn`t like. And it`s almost a look of "I`m going to get you."
GALANOS: You know, you`re right.
JESSOP: It`s concerning.
GALANOS: Look at those dark eyes. It`s sinister, that look.
Laurie Allen again, producer of "Banking on Heaven"; she escaped a polygamist sect as well. Laurie, I want to get your take on those pictures as well. When I first saw them, I just did a double take going, "Wow."
And to Carolyn`s point, I mean, look at that. It`s a haunting, sinister face coming at us.
LAURIE ALLEN, PRODUCER, "BANKING ON HEAVEN": He`s a haunting, sinister man who`s exactly where he belongs and finally his victims have some protection. Not that others won`t fill his shoes but I don`t think anybody will be as bad as he was. He just got what he deserved.
GALANOS: Laurie, I have to ask you as well. That picture -- can it be used for -- will anybody try, any supporter try and use that to say "Look at Warren, our martyr. Look at what they`ve done to him."
ALLEN: Absolutely. That`s exactly what they`re going to do. But the reason they`re censoring the press over there is because they don`t want to hear what you`re saying or what I`m saying. And they don`t want to hear -- their members to hear the public outrage.
Because they all know what`s going on but they just don`t want their members to know how horrified everybody on the outside world is that what they just do every day is common practice.
GALANOS: And we pose the question, could he still lead? I mean many believe that Jeffs will continue to be revered because members of the church, as Carolyn you said, do not have access to any of the case details. In fact, new reports claim Jeffs` followers are building a three-story statue of the self-proclaimed prophet. Wow, I mean I`m astonished just to see that as well.
Carolyn, I`m taking you`re not surprised to hear that, knowing the blackout of information for the folks in some of these compounds?
JESSOP: No. And if the statue is true, it`s just a way to distract the community from what`s coming out and the backlash from the American public. And it`s just a way to distract them from what`s really going on.
GALANOS: We`re going to continue our conversation. Number one here is to protect the innocent children who are still in FLDS compounds in different states around our nation.
Warren Jeffs, stripped bare; what about the kids still inside?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFS: Brothers and sisters, let there be no dissension. I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet. And I have been deceived by the powers of evil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: That`s eerie as well. In that 2007 video, you heard it, Warren Jeffs telling FLDS members he`s not the prophet. And today, we saw these startling new booking photos, you see him bald, shaven, pale. Has this broken him or do you think he`s still steadfast in his convictions?
I want to bring in Linda Bender; Linda is a former Arizona senator. Linda, I know you -- I know your heart and I believe it is the heart of so many to make sure children inside any FLDS compounds are safe and there is not abuse going on. Does the conviction and the sentence to Warren Jeffs, how much does that open doors that we can make sure kids are ok?
LINDA BENDER, FORMER ARIZONA STATE SENATOR (via telephone): Well, we still have a major ongoing problem with Colorado. There is still no law and order up there. They still have police officers who are polygamists. They pretty much do whatever they like.
And unfortunately, you know, the Colorado City`s has spread like cancer. They remind me of the little terror cell for pedophiles, they spread into other places like Nevada, Colorado, Idaho, South Dakota, British Columbia, Mexico. So, you know, this hasn`t been stopped by any means.
And I`m so proud of Texas proving that they`re courageous, no-nonsense state, in standing up and prosecuting Warren Jeffs and giving him a life- long prison term because we certainly do need to do a lot more both in Utah and Arizona.
GALANOS: All right. Let`s go to a caller. Amy is with us from Connecticut. Hi Amy, your thought, comment, question.
AMY, CONNECTICUT (via telephone): Hi. I have a comment. It is really nice to talk to you.
I just wanted to say that what`s been upsetting me a lot is women wanting to blame other women. And I really feel like as women, you know, we have to stand together and we have to empathize and understand that they have been indoctrinated and made powerless by these men.
And, you know, perhaps we need to find the men and get rid of them and re-educate the women and, you know, teach them that what`s been done to them is just in the name of -- they`re twisting the First Amendment right to religion.
GLANOS: Thanks for the call. I want to bring back Carolyn Jessop, who had escaped a polygamist marriage, fled with her children. What about that, Carolyn? I mean the men have the power here. And over the last couple of days, there has been people that said, ok, what about adult women who witnessed underage children being sexually assaulted by Warren Jeffs? What should happen to them? What has been your answer to that, Carolyn?
JESSOP: Well, the difficulty here is that if you go by the logic that women have been indoctrinated and made powerless, so have the men. They`re just as indoctrinated in many ways, just as powerless.
However the state of Texas had the courage to hold the men accountable. And I think some of the outrage has been in what the tapes that have been played there were adult women involved in these sexual assaults, the minors. My stepdaughter is the 12-year-old that he was convicted on for 99 years and her sisters were involved in that.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANOS: Carolyn, Laurie, Linda, thanks so much.
Carolyn, we have to run. Thanks again. We`re going to stay on this, making sure the kids are safe.
And coming up: a boy`s miracle on the ocean.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DALE OSTRANDER: I got up there and I grasped the sand and I`m like, he`s dead. And I`m, like, what am I supposed to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has miracle written all over it. There is no real other word for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: I agree with that. Miracle on the Pacific Ocean when a youth church group went to the beach to swim, 12-year-old Dale Ostrander was swept out by a lethal riptide. You heard it, his brave friend Nicole tried to rescue him but they were pulled apart by the strong current.
As the church group stayed on the beach and prayed, rescuers finally found Dale, about 20 minutes late, after he had disappeared underwater. And doctors warned his parents that Dale might have permanent brain damage, lose his speech. But I`m happy to report that Dale started speaking just days after that heroic rescue.
It`s great to end a show like this, some good news. We wish Dale and his family the best.
Keep it right here on HLN. "NANCY GRACE" is next. And Jane will be back tomorrow.
END
