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Nancy Grace

Judge Orders Casey Anthony to Serve Probation in Orlando

Aired August 12, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Bombshell tonight out of a Florida courtroom, tot mom Casey Anthony is set to come out of hiding. She is reporting back in court.

Joining us live in the field, Michael Christian, correspondent and producer with "In Session." What happened, Michael?

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, SR. FIELD PRODUCER, "IN SESSION": We have finally gotten a decision here, Nancy, and Judge Belvin Perry has decided Casey Anthony has to come back and serve probation. This is regular probation. This is not administrative probation. She has been ordered to return to Orlando and report to the probation intake center no later than August 26th at noon. Now, she has the option of coming earlier. She has a year`s probation. Whenever she comes and reports, that`s when her probation starts.

So basically, she`ll be on a year`s probation starting whenever she shows up in Orlando, which will be no later than August 26th at noon.

GRACE: Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer -- Ellie, what happened?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, we`ve been waiting on this ruling to find out if Casey Anthony was going to head back to Florida to serve that probation. Remember, her defense argued it had already been served. Judge Perry now saying she does have to go back to Florida. In fact, she has to report by noon on August 26th, serve a year of supervised probation. But he did say that her address, where she`s living, could be kept confidential.

GRACE: Everyone, tonight, bombshell out of an Orlando judge`s chambers. Judge Belvin Perry says tot mom Casey Anthony must come out of hiding and return back to a Florida courtroom.

To Natisha Lance, our producer on the story from the get-go. What prompted Belvin Perry`s ruling?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Well, Nancy, back in January of 2010 -- this was when Casey Anthony was found guilty of those charges of check fraud against her friend, Amy Huizenga. And at that time, Judge Stan Strickland, who was the judge, the original judge on the case, said that Casey Anthony would have to serve probation once she was released from jail.

Somehow, there was a mix-up, and it seems as if Casey Anthony was serving her probation while she was still behind bars, although Stan Strickland said that is not what he had ordered. He went back and he went through the process of trying to get her probation to be where it is now today.

GRACE: Joining us right now, special guest, WFTV legal analyst and seasoned Orlando trial lawyer Bill Sheaffer is joining us. Bill Sheaffer, so many people thought that Perry was going to back down and not order her back. Why? Because her defense team had created such a barrage between her and reporting to court, like everybody else on probation.

But today, Belvin Perry brings down the hammer and says, Oh, no, you are coming back to a Florida courtroom. You will report to probation, just like every other Florida citizen must that is ordered on probation. To you, Bill Sheaffer. Explain his reasoning.

BILL SHEAFFER, WTFV LEGAL ANALYST (via telephone): Well, what the judge ruled is, is that the oral pronouncement of sentencing trumps the written order of sentencing. And in Florida, that`s been a long-standing law, although locally, there has been some question that`s been raised. But Judge Perry counted on the fact that it has been long-standing that when the judge orally pronounced that he wanted this probation to begin once she was released from jail, that that trumped his written order because that wasn`t clear in his written order.

GRACE: So what was stated orally at the time of the sentence trumps anything that was then misconstrued in writing?

SHEAFFER: Correct. It was what Judge Strickland said at the time of sentencing. That did not translate to Judge Strickland`s written order. And the fifth district court of appeals and the other court of appeals in Florida have ruled consistently that, Wait a minute, the rules of criminal procedure provide that you -- it is what (INAUDIBLE) excuse me -- it`s what is pronounced at the time of sentencing. If the written order of sentencing...

GRACE: Right.

SHEAFFER: ... does not conform with the oral, the oral pronouncement takes precedence, and that`s what Judge Perry ruled.

GRACE: And of course, if she is treated like every other probationer, she`ll have to get a job. She`ll be screened for drugs, alcohol. She`ll have to have a place of residence, which we learn is going to be kept a secret. And she`ll have to have regular contact with a probation officer.

Now, I already see a problem. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, a job? Come on! She lied about having a job for five straight years as she munched on potato chips on her parents` sofa. You really think she`s going to be able to have a job? And of course, alcohol and drug screening -- that`s going to be a problem.

Everybody, we are taking your calls. Bombshell! In the last hours, tot mom, Casey Anthony, ordered by Judge Belvin Perry, a former prosecutor, to come back to an Orlando courtroom, that she will report to probation and serve the regular guidelines of every other Florida probationer.

Tonight, we have no idea where she actually is. Her former defense attorney, Todd Macaluso, says she absolutely is not slung up in his $5.2 million mansion, and even opened the doors to the mansion to prove she wasn`t there.

To Aphrodite Jones, host of "True Crime" on Investigation Discovery. Weigh in, Aphrodite.

APHRODITE JONES, HOST, "TRUE CRIME," INVESTIGATION DISCOVERY: You know what, Nancy? I was saying this last week on your show, that Belvin Perry would rule in favor of Stan Strickland`s original order because that is the history here. The oral statement of Strickland was that she was to serve probation upon release, and Belvin Perry held up his ruling.

Now, I will say in his ruling that came down today, one of the things Perry said is that the lawyer, meaning Jose Baez, the defense attorney, is the gold standard, is he`s an officer of the court, and that he could not use -- and I`m quoting from Belvin`s (SIC) order today -- "a known error by a scrivener," a scrivener`s error known to be used to benefit his client`s interests.

So Baez had an obligation to notify the court that, somehow, Casey Anthony had been given probation inside jail, which was not supposed to be the case. And he thought that was going to fly and Belvin Perry said, You are an officer of the court. You cannot -- you have the duty of candor. You must report to us, OK, that this was an error. And an error does not trump the intent that the judge set out. So Nancy...

GRACE: You know, Aphrodite Jones, you summarized that beautifully. Judge Belvin Perry, as Aphrodite Jones is telling you, goes on to say that Jose Baez, quote, "took advantage of a scrivener`s error," in other words, a clerical error.

Unleash the lawyers, Michael Griffith, John Burris, Penny Douglas Furr. We`ve all seen it. I have many, many times. Sometimes on an arraignment calendar or a trial calendar, you`ll have 100, 200 cases you got to deal with. And the clerk is writing as fast as she can what the judge is ordering. And occasionally, there`s an error.

Now, you`d think that in the tot mom case, they`d get it right, but no, they didn`t get exactly what the judge said. And in this instance, it blew up, did it not, Penny?

PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But in this case also, with everything that`s happened with Casey Anthony, I think it would be a very good idea for them to transfer that probation out of Florida.

GRACE: Transfer it? Transfer it to where, John Burris? Texas, California, Ohio, Puerto Rico? Where? Where is she going to get probation transferred to?

JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It depends where she goes. I mean, she can...

GRACE: Yes, well, she won`t tell anybody. She won`t tell anybody.

BURRIS: Well, that`s on her. That`s really on her.

GRACE: You`re darn right it`s on her! So Michael Griffith...

BURRIS: If she doesn`t do it...

GRACE: ... if she won`t even tell us -- as Burris is saying, if she won`t even tell us where she is, then how can you transfer probation? Probation records are open records.

MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INT`L CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER (via telephone): Nancy, I hate to disappoint you, she`s not going to tell you. But she`s got to tell the probation department where she is, and then they can transfer it to where she is. And she doesn`t have to get a job. She has to prove that she`s trying to get a job. And all probation -- as you know, you`re a former assistant district attorney, all you got to do is just not get arrested and that usually fulfills probation.

GRACE: Basically, you`re right. That`s all she`s got to do is manage not to get arrested for one year. But the bombshell tonight is she is headed back to an Orlando courtroom.

And very quickly, Ellie Jostad, I`m looking right at the order. The judge is saying no later than August 26th, 12:00 PM. She can report earlier. I predict high drama, Ellie Jostad, just like when she left the courthouse, when she left the jail, and there`s a private plane, blah, blah, blah, and the decoy, we`re going to have all the drama surrounding her coming back to court.

JOSTAD: Well, and not to mention, Nancy, there`s the helicopters hovering over the private airport where we believe Casey Anthony is seen running from a private plane. There`s these photos that have surfaced that allegedly show her in Ohio. Everybody is going to be watching when she comes back to Florida.

GRACE: Caryn Stark, psychologist, why is everyone still so angry about the tot mom case?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Because what happened in that trial cuts to the heart of our family values. She was supposed to be a mother loving her child, not a mother partying while her child disappeared. And there`s tremendous outrage over that. I mean, people don`t understand how someone could cut off their feelings the way that she did. They really are furious that she could get away with mistreating her daughter and ignoring the fact that her daughter was missing.

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Tot mom, Casey Anthony. heading back to an Orlando courtroom, according to Judge Belvin Perry. And that`s not all. Everybody`s going to be watching her bank account, along with the IRS. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, it ain`t over yet! She is headed back to a Florida courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: When did you terminate Ms. Anthony`s probation?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was terminated on January 24th, 2011.

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, FLORIDA DISTRICT COURT: If anything could go wrong, it went wrong here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are a lot of people that go through the probation system who might be in danger, and they don`t get any special care.

BAEZ: Casey Anthony is public enemy number one. I`m public enemy number two.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do the right thing!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come out of Casey world and confront the viewers with the reality of what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a walking, living soap opera.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A dozen death threats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Media frenzy.

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I don`t want to hear any of this media (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Open a big can of justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Outrageous outburst.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I said no.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m done.

CASEY ANTHONY: Oh, my god.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I am talking!

CASEY ANTHONY: They need to shut up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is she?

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m protecting our family.

BAEZ: For the rest of your frickin` life!

CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)

BAEZ: The nonsense stops right now!

CHENEY MASON, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: We won, they lost.

CASEY ANTHONY: I mean, really!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. Breaking news tonight. Tot mom, Casey Anthony, is headed back to an Orlando courtroom, according to superior court Judge Belvin Perry. As many people predicted, Belvin Perry did not buy into Jose Baez`s bogus argument that her probation was served while she was behind bars. You know what? That and fish both stunk. After about 72 hours of thinking about it, Belvin Perry agreed and has ordered tot mom out of seclusion and back to a court of law, like every other probationer in the state of Florida!

We are taking your calls. But I want to go now to Sheryl McCollum. You`ve been in the court system for a mighty long time. Have you ever heard of probation being served behind bars ever once, Sheryl?

SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: The most ridiculous thing I`ve ever heard. She absolutely needs to go back. She absolutely needs to meet with somebody regularly, take the drug screen, you know, attempt to get a job and follow the guidelines like everybody else has to do. Finally, she`s going to be treated the way she should have been treated all along.

GRACE: And I`d like to point out in contradiction to my friend, Michael Griffith, international law expert, that she doesn`t have to work - - no, no, no, no! It says right here in black and white, "You will work diligently at a lawful occupation and support any dependents -- well, she can`t do that because they`re dead -- any dependents to the best of your ability, as directed by your probation officer."

You know, what is she going to do? I can tell you this. She`ll probably go answer the telephone in Jose Baez`s law office.

We`re taking your calls. Out to Debbie in Michigan. Tot mom on her way back to an Orlando courtroom. What about it, Debbie in Michigan?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I truly believe that the judge is totally right in his idea that she should come back and serve probation. If this was anybody else, and it wasn`t a famous trial all over the news, she`d be back and she`d be doing that. She can`t be special just because her case is blasted all over the news.

And you know, she can`t just run away and think this is all going to be over with and she can live the happy life, you know, because I think her problems are going to follow her anywhere she goes.

GRACE: You know what, Debbie in Michigan? I think you`re right. And I was thinking about this order by Belvin Perry she`s got to be gainfully employed. I would say I add to that in any field but child care.

Out to the lines. Arlene in North Carolina. Hi, Arlene. Tot mom headed back to an Orlando courtroom. I predict she`s going to try to give the slip on everybody and come in and out without being noticed. Doubt that`s going to happen.

What`s your question, Arlene?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Hey, Nancy. My question is this. What I`ve been wondering about, is anybody ever going to be responsible for putting Caylee in those woods all that time? She knew that she was out there. But nobody says anything more about it. It`s just like, OK, she did it, but she didn`t do it, and now it`s all over and poor Caylee. I mean, excuse me, poor Casey.

And you know what? I think part of her punishment should be that she has to visit out there at that grave where she left her baby all this time. I think that should be part of her probation.

GRACE: You know, Arlene in North Carolina, I could not agree with you more. Unfortunately, Belvin Perry is bound by Strickland`s order of probation. And thank God in heaven Strickland ordered her on probation. This probation is not for Caylee`s murder. This probation is on the theft of her good friend, Amy Huizenga`s, checks.

Remember that video -- let`s see if you can dig it up, Dana -- of tot mom going through Target, buying push-up bras and a case of beer while Caylee`s missing. Those checks were Amy Huizenga`s. Yes, it`s caught on video. I`m just concerned as to why she got straight probation to start with.

But in any event, tonight she`s headed back to an Orlando courtroom. Ellie Jostad, what about that original offense? That`s what`s coming back to bite tot mom in the neck today.

JOSTAD: Yes, that`s right. Well, what happened is her friend, Amy Huizenga, goes on vacation to Puerto Rico, lets Casey Anthony borrow her car. Casey Anthony finds Amy`s checkbook in the car and starts writing checks on it. She was prosecuted for five, al though she did write more checks than that. And Nancy, one of the checks, Casey Anthony even signed her own name to it. She wrote another one for cash and got $250 out of the bank.

GRACE: Ellie! Ellie!

JOSTAD: Yes?

GRACE: I see another problem in Belvin`s order -- Belvin Perry. It says, No visiting places where intoxicants, alcohol, sold." Uh-oh, tot mom! No more Fusian lounge for you! Sorry!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight. Tot mom Casey Anthony is headed back to an Orlando courtroom. No, she hasn`t killed anybody else, she`s answering up on probation. Yes, laugh all you want to, tot mom, but you`re going to answer up in a Florida courtroom. It`s only probation, I know.

But taking a look at Judge Belvin Perry`s order, he seems equally irritated at defense attorney Jose Baez. Alexis Tereszcuk, senior reporter with Radaronline.com, he states point-blank that tot mom`s defense took advantage of a clerical error and tried to turned it around and use it.

ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: He did. He said that he is an officer of the court and he should know better. He should not be taking advantage of somebody who types something wrong or just didn`t hear it correctly. And this is a big violation. He`s really angry at Baez.

And throughout the trial, he often admonished Baez for things. You know, at one point, he even handed him a ruling and said, Read this because you need to understand the law. So this is something that he continues to do, even now, after the case is over. He`s pretty mad at Baez for taking advantage is exactly what he said.

GRACE: It is totally behavior unbecoming to an officer of the court. I got to go back to the lawyers, Michael Griffith, John Burris, Penny Douglas Furr.

John Burris, as I`ve said many, many times, you really aren`t a seasoned lawyer until you`ve been held in contempt at least once. But in this case, we heard over and over and over that the trial judge was going to consider sanctions against Baez once the trial is over -- not another word has been stated about that -- for repeatedly misleading, including misleading the jury.

It is unethical to put something in your opening statement that you know you don`t have the evidence to prove. And I`m referring directly to allegations that George and Lee Anthony sexually molested tot mom. In fact, Baez was disallowed from bringing that up in closing statement.

BURRIS: Well, I agree that there are a lot of things that happened in this trial that raise questions about his ethics. But I will say that the judge constant threatening to do something about it is not uncommon. I`ve been in many situations where in the course of a trial, things get heated. Things are said. And -- but at the end of the case, when it`s over, the judge...

GRACE: Have you ever been held in contempt?

BURRIS: I`ve been threatened with contempt a number of times. And in the course of a trial...

GRACE: Me, too.

BURRIS: ... the judge said -- but it -- but it`s never happened.

GRACE: And you know what? You know what? That`s what happens when you push your point in court.

BURRIS: That`s what happens.

GRACE: There`s a big difference between that and doing something inappropriate.

BURRIS: Well, I agree with that.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Karen in Canada. Hi, Karen. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m just so infuriated by this case still, and I cannot believe that she will actually have to serve any time on probation. So I`m wondering what the defense will have up their sleeve now. Is there any way they can appeal this decision and get her out of it?

GRACE: That`s a good question. Can they appeal the decision, yes, no, Penny?

FURR: They can absolutely appeal that decision. But by the time it gets to the higher court, it`s probably almost over, so it may not be worth their time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is Casey`s next move going to be?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is nobody`s business.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not worrying about bills, food, or even a few clothes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How could you try to get rich off of a murdered little girl?

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: I never once wanted to be on TV.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey`s not going to change.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was in a four by nine cell for three years, 23 hours a day.

CASEY ANTHONY: I only have been in jail, oh, since about 8:30 tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would screw with anybody`s head.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no one to comfort me but myself.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she in Ohio?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t even (bleep) waste your time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will she cash in on the publicity from this case and tell her story?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything in moderation, and modesty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a very attractive woman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a ratings bonanza.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When are we going to sit on the beach drinking cocktails and planning our future business?

CASEY ANTHONY: That`s a step in the right direction. (END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Bombshell tonight, we are live in Orlando, tot mom Casey Anthony, it ain`t over yet.

Tot mom, as of the last hours, ordered back to an Orlando courtroom by Judge Belvin Perry, who goes into great detail in his order I`ve got right here, slamming defense Attorney Jose Baez claiming he "took advantage of a clerical order" by claiming tot mom served probation while behind bars.

Now, a lot of legal eagles knew that was a stunt when we heard the premise. But the court seemed stymies as to what to do about it. Will Judge Belvin Perry went through the muck and render an order in the last hours demanding that tot mom get off her self-imposed reclusion and report to court like every other Florida probationer?

We`re taking your calls. Out to Sherry in North Carolina. What`s your question?

SHERRY, Caller, NORTH CAROLINA: Hi. I love you, Nancy. First time caller. Just a quick question. If she fails to get a job and somewhere in lands in Orlando, can they violate her on that? And does Florida or I mean Orlando sheriff`s department has to provide her protection? When she comes back there, do they have to be her personal security guards?

GRACE: Well, first of all, as to being her personal security guard, no, unless she`s got a credible threat against her. Regarding her coming back to court, that`s going to be filled with high drama. Very quickly to Bill Shaffer. Weigh in, Bill.

BILL SHAFFER, FMR PROSECUTOR (via telephone): Yes, that`s going to be media frenzy if she reports back to court. But Nancy, I think that she`s not going to end up reporting because what`s going to happen is the defense is going to appeal the judge`s order and they are going to get a stay until the appellate courts go through this and decide whether or not Judge Perry made the right decision because, again, unfortunately, unfortunately for us, and fortunately for Mr. Baez and his client at this time there is a question as to whether an oral pronouncement trumps a written order.

GRACE: Well, you know what, I`m not so sure about that. It seems to me that the oral pronouncement by the judge at the time of sentencing will trump a clerical error.

And now switching gears, back to Aruba, Aruban police searching as far away as Venezuelan waters for Robyn Gardner, the Maryland tourist who disappears on a trip to Aruba. And at the same time on this end, investigation into traveling companion Gary Giordano`s past reveals a dark picture.

Dana, let`s just kick it off. Let`s show the viewer that sign posted outside his home. I think he lives in Gaithersville, Maryland; it warns visitors that they will be audio-taped and video-taped if they come on to his property.

Dana, can we get that video that photo to show the viewers?

That`s not it. That`s him in a deer outfit. I find that very, very unusual that a man posts that to potential visitors, telling them, they`re going to be audio-taped and videotaped if they come on to his land. There you see that shot.

Let`s go straight out to Rupa Mikkilineni, not only that Rupa. We learned there is a string of about seven women who are now complaining that they have been harassed, stalked, propositioned, or even secretly videotaped during sex with Giordano.

RUPA MIKKILINENI, PRODUCE, THE NANCY GRACE SHOW: That`s right, Nancy. There are seven women that have come out, made allegations, some of these women even officially made allegations and police did investigate in Maryland, but unfortunately, those charges were dropped.

He has been accused of a variety of things. For example, stalking, looking through windows, wearing a weird deer mask, scaring women, going on to their face books, using fake aliases. Not to mention the fact that one police authority in Maryland believes that he actually saw during an investigation that there was video of him hurting a woman, meaning beating her, hitting her on the head, strangling her. Now, of course, these allegations have not been proven in court. He`s not been convicted.

GRACE: Now, let me make sure the viewers understand, you say he was accused of wearing a weird deer mask. Let`s show the deer mask now that we`re actually talking about it. Wasn`t just wearing it. According to the alleged victim, after she turned him down for a "free trip" to Aruba with him, he shows up outside her kitchen window wearing that mask at night with a light up under his face like Chuckie, the horror movie. Those are allegations.

Some of the women said they were too afraid to go forward with the complaint. His lawyer says those complaints were all dropped.

Let`s go straight out to Martin Savidge, CNN correspondent, standing by at Aruba, there at Baby Beach.

Martin, let me get a shot in full. I want to see Baby Beach with my own eyes. Martin, it looks extremely mild there. It does look like what it says, a beach for a baby.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is. It is an absolutely gorgeous setting. And inside the bay here, the water is perfectly calm. In fact, there are lots of families, lots of small children in the water at this very moment.

That`s why people say it is so hard to believe this account that somehow she may have been dragged out to sea. I will point out, though, once you get beyond the break walls, at some distance out there, they say the water becomes rougher and the currents do change.

But for most part, authorities are very confused at the location that Gary Giordano pointed out to them as where they were snorkeling because local people said nobody goes snorkeling there. It is very difficult to get to that part of the beach, very rocky, lots of coral, awkward to walk on, almost impossible to drive on in some areas. They say it just isn`t a likely spot that you go snorkeling. Yet, that is the area he pointed to and that is the area that had been the focus. Yet on either side, two beautiful pristine beaches open for snorkeling. They choose the one spot that most locals wouldn`t use. This is another indicator why authorities say this story just doesn`t seem right to us, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, hold. Hold on Martin Savidge joining us there in Aruba. And everyone, we`re taking your calls.

Martin, you just mentioned beyond the wall. What are you referring to when you say beyond the wall?

SAVIDGE: All right, let me show you here, Nancy, if we can. We`ll pan with the camera. This is the bay. It is a large man made bay, very tranquil. But as you can see, there is a break in the break walls there. That is maybe 150, 200 yards from shore, that`s where you get out into the open ocean and there you can see the cresting waves.

The locals say you can`t actually even swim out there because the water pushes you back in. But they do warn if you went beyond that point, it could become more treacherous and the currents unpredictable. No one knows if they were actually in that area.

GRACE: From what we have been able to learn, Martin Savidge, there is no way this girl is going to go beyond that shallow tranquil area. There, everybody, in that video you`re seeing, that`s video we obtained of the so- called traveling companion, Gary Giordano, "helping the police," pointing out where Robyn Gardner must have drifted out to sea.

Listen, this is a woman that got extensions in her hair, no offense, every eight days, had them glued in. This woman is not going to go out 200 yards into the ocean. In fact, not only her family, but her boyfriend and best friends say the most she will do is get, maybe, waist down in the pool and have a little drink to cool herself off. Maybe if it got too hot. This woman was not out past a break wall getting into treacherous waters.

I want to go now to a special guest joining us, Bob Flynn. He represented Giordano in the first divorce. Bob, what can you tell us tonight?

BOB FLYNN, FORMER GIRODANO`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): Well, Nancy, Gary was an interesting person. I only knew him for a very short period of time, a few years back during his first divorce and he initially came to me because of allegations by his wife and by him of abuse. Each of them accused the other of abuse back in December 2001.

GRACE: Mr. Flynn, everybody, Attorney Bob Flynn joining us from Annapolis. You say that he also made an abuse claim on her. Let me ask you, who made the first abuse claim?

FLYNN: The filing of the two complaints was done on the exact same date. I`m not sure whether one beat the other one by a few hours.

GRACE: I think I can refresh your recollection, Mr. Flynn. According to our report, his wife filed for court protection against them. And then he followed up and went, oh, yes, I`m filing against you. And apparently there is another wife, I believe out of Tennessee where she filed as well with the court for protection. And also there is, apparently, a girlfriend that filed for physical protection against Mr. Gardener. Excuse me, against Giordano.

FLYNN: The allegations by the first wife, again, whether someone filed a few minutes before the other one, doesn`t really make a whole lot of difference. He was the one that called the police and asked them to come to the home that night. And the second one did end up in orders being entered. But the ones with Sharon Cohen did not end up with any orders of protection being entered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD FORRESTER: ROBYN GARNER`S BOYFRIEND: The authorities have her I pad, her phones and assuming her purse with her wallet because they did ask me about all the car keys that were in her purse. So she, she didn`t get, go anywhere. She did not leave on her own without anything else.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man she was with 50-year-old man named Gary Giordano.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When he reached shore, she was nowhere to be seen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The idea of some sort of riptide, a current that pulled her out to sea they don`t buy it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Gary Giordano`s past coming back to haunt him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They met each other on a dating site.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some days he was nice and other days he wasn`t.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has domestic violence allegations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was, like, stalking me, and it freaked me out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Characteristics of some sort of violent predator.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gloves are off now in this investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yanked my arm really hard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apparently this guy would go online, get to know attractive women.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A guy that was giving out free trips to Aruba, to any young woman that would take him up on it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he would meet them online, they would meet in person a couple of times, have consensual sex. What they didn`t know -

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was a guy who is videotaping them.

FORRESTER: Anybody who knows anything about him, come forward.

GRACE: Where is Robyn Gardner?

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GRACE: Where is American girl Robyn Gardner? She goes on an al expense paid trip to Aruba, paid by traveling companion Gary Giordano. He says, fine, we`re just friends, no problem.

She`s missing. She hasn`t been seen since August 2. Aruban cops looking as far away as Venezuelan waters for her body, now say they`re convinced given the weather and ocean conditions, all mild, sunny and clear, her body absolutely would have surfaced.

So was she ever even in the water? Did she ever go snorkeling? All of her friends, family, boyfriend say no way would this girl put her head face down in the water. That`s not going to happen.

Where is Robyn Gardner? Her family now back in the states, wondering, where their daughter is. And tonight, a dark picture emerging of the so- called traveling companion, Giordano. This goes straight to the theory of, if you want to off somebody, fine, go to Mexico, go to Aruba. You`ll never be caught. You can hop a plane and be out of the jurisdiction before they turn around and find out your name. We are taking your calls live, unleash the lawyers.

Joining us tonight, Michael Griffith, renowned international criminal defense attorney has traveled to Aruba and handled cases there many times. John Burris, famed defense attorney out of San Francisco. And defense attorney out of Atlanta, Penny Douglass Furr.

First to you, Burris, it doesn`t look good for Giordano.

JOHN BURRIS, DFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t on his face, but there certainly isn`t any evidence that the prosecution has right now that would support any type of conviction.

GRACE: Really? You mean other than him? Give me that video of him pointing out to the beach where they were. Not a single witness places her there. Scientific evidence showed her body would absolutely have surfaced by now had she drowned out there.

BURRIS: I don`t think that, I don`t think that`s real evidence yet.

GRACE: Not real evidence.

BURRIS: We don`t have a body, number one. No, the fact is you have nothing to conflict what his evidence is.

GRACE: I don`t think the body was in the water.

BURRIS: Well, that may be true as well. But that certainly doesn`t mean they have evidence they can prosecute him on at this moment. It is true his story may be inconsistent, but they really got to come from he evidence to show.

GRACE: Inconsistent? How about false evidence to a police officer, Penny? What about that? Doesn`t that suggest? I mean, he doesn`t have anything to be worried about, why would he make up a spot where she was last swimming? Penny?

BURRIS: Well, even so. Even so.

GRACE: Penny, Penny. At this point, we have no evidence that that is not where she was. She could have gone out farther. And then she could have gone farther out. Put penny up. Penny.

PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: Come on. Get real with me for a moment. You`re not in court. You don`t have a duty to represent Giordano. This woman would not put her face underwater in the swimming pool. You want to tell me, show her that shot that Savidge showed me Dana, that this woman went out 250 yards out into the open ocean, to snorkel?

Penny, you know, you know that snorkeling is done in shallow water. That`s absolutely impossible that she would have gone out 250 yards to sea a fish.

FURR: Well, Nancy, why would the woman go to Aruba if she doesn`t even swim? I mean that`s ridiculous.

GRACE: Right now, to CNN heroes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HELEN ASHE: Daddy worked hard for what we got. He taught us not to take the last piece of bread from the table. Somebody may come out hungry. My name is Helen Ashe and I am the happy founder of the love kitchen.

We address the needs of the five Hs, the homeless, the hungry, the hopeless, the home bound and the helpless. Do you have coffee and cups out?

My sister Ellen is a blessing to me. And how about those small tomatoes, Ellen?

The lord sent two because there is so much work to do for one. We went to nursing school. No, back then, segregation was pretty rampant. I just saw the black people that were having a problem with transportation and food.

So what we`re going to start off with this morning?

Every day on my way home, I would tell my sister, one day I`m going to do something about this.

We`re getting ready to open the line.

The first day we served 22 meals. That was in 1986. And since that time, we have been growing, growing, growing, growing.

Everybody here is a volunteer. They enjoy doing what we are doing. We deliver from 1400 to 2200 meals every Thursday to our home bound people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s my buddy.

HELEN ASHE: We were taught to work for what we got. And to share what we did get. And we helped so many people that are in need. And that`s what keeps us going.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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FORRESTER: I just don`t think that she was snorkeling. I feel in my heart that something happened at this person`s hand.

GARY GIORDANO, ROBYN GARNDER`S COMPANION IN ARUBA: He came ashore and she apparently did not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They launch a pretty extensive search. But no sign of Robyn Gardner.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As Aruban police search for the beautiful missing blonde, many wonder just like in the Natalee Holloway case, will Robyn Gardner`s disappearance ever be solved.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ve had the best time of my life.

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GRACE: Joining us tonight is a very special guest. It is Bob Flynn, who actually represented Gary Giordano, the so-called traveling companion, in one of his two divorces that we know of.

Bob Flynn joining us out of an Annapolis, Maryland.

Bob, according to you in earlier statements you have made, he`s a very calculated person. He doesn`t make any sudden moves, everything is very well thought out. Why do you say that?

FLYNN: Well, I didn`t intend for calculating to be talked about in a nefarious kind of way. Gary is an incredibly intelligent individual. And when he`s moving forward with almost anything, he plans his steps and what always struck me is that he was like a chess player, could think several moves out to no know what was going to happen.

GRACE: That`s interesting because in one of the statements you make, you say "so calculating would be a good way of describing him." But you just to say he`s incredibly bright, very intelligent. He had a personality that he could turn off and turn on, kind of like a light switch. A salesman personality, you describe. What does that mean?

FLYNN: He was a very nice person to be with. He could find something in common with almost anybody. He has somewhat of a disarming smile and makes you feel very comfortable to be with him.

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Wilson Mock, 23. Harvard Kansas killed in Iraq. On a second tour awarded two bronze stars, Purple Heart, Army commendation. Loved working out, box, learning Spanish. Never met a stranger. Motto, strict and honor. Leaves behind parents Michael and Ann, brothers Eric and Jason, Sisters Theresa, Tummy, Connie, Emily. Wilson Mock, American hero.

Thanks to our guests and especially to you for being with us and a special happy birthday to New York friend, Anita Torres, mother of three. Take a look at this beautiful friend of the show and happy birthday, Anita.

And happy birthday to Georgia friend Carolyn Gilbert, retired from the banking industry. 35 years, loves to read to the blind, cross word puzzles, embroidering and being a member of her Methodist church. Happy birthday, Carolyn.

Everyone, I`ll see you Sunday night, 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night.

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