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Dr. Drew
Tragedy in Indiana
Aired August 15, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: So here we go.
Catastrophe in Indiana. Broken hearts, shattered lives. The governor of Indiana is here. Why tragedy brings out the best in us.
Plus, an American beauty vanishes in Aruba. Has a missing persons case become a murder?
And possible defense witnesses in the Michael Jackson death trial revealed. How many doctors did he have?
Let`s go figure it out.
"The worst thing I`ve ever seen." Those words from a 22-year-old woman attending the Indiana State Fair on Saturday night when the stage collapsed, killing five and injured dozens. And we`re about to look at that horrific video right now.
I want to warn you, this is very graphic. Watch this and we will talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A memorial for the victims who died in Saturday`s tragic accident.
(SCREAMING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had let us know that there was some severe weather coming our way. They gave us an evacuation plan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The sky all of a sudden turned really dark and pitch black, and it was coming straight at us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was absolutely pandemonium.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grandstands just fell over right on top of people.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Something remarkable happened. Fans started running toward the stage to lift hundreds of pounds of scaffolding and debris off trapped victims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, two, three.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bunch of us were able to lift it up just enough, and people pulled her out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I crawled back under there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, for all the tragedy, that was really very encouraging to see, kind of humanity in action.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: And as you saw there in the midst of this unthinkable tragedy, everyday Americans turned into selfless heroes, as concert-goers rushed to help those caught in debris as this dangerous storm rolled in. "There was a hero every 10 feet on Saturday night." Those words from Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels.
Here`s more of what he told CNN`s "AMERICAN MORNING." Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MITCH DANIELS (R), INDIANA: The response is what I would expect, have come to respect from the people who work -- for whom I work. As you said, hundreds of people went to the trouble, as opposed to away from the trouble. And all the responders I talked to since have commented on the fact that suddenly, there were average citizens on either side of them helping prevent this from being worse than it was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s breathtaking in so many ways. And I`m going to talk to Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels after the break.
But first, joining me by phone is his wife, the first lady of Indiana, Cheri Daniels. She was at the fair on Saturday night when the stage collapsed.
Also with me are eyewitness Jenna Gioe and Jessica Silas (ph). Jessica is the iReporter who shot the stage collapse video and the rescue efforts that we`ve been watching here tonight.
Mrs. Daniels, I`m going to start with you. You were at the fair with your daughter and son-in-law at the time, and I guess you had some very worrisome moments after the collapse.
CHERI DANIELS, WIFE OF GOVERNOR MITCH DANIELS: Well, yes, I did. I was actually in the grandstands waiting for the concert to begin. My daughter was doing photography for the concert, and so she was down on the track.
My son-in-law was out on the track as well. He was assisting her that evening.
So after everything happened, of course your first instinct, as was the instinct of thousands of people who were there that evening for the concert, was to start contacting their friends and family that they knew were at the concert to see if they were OK. And of course the phone lines, the cell phones were not working.
You could not get a text message through. You could not get a phone call through. So it was a very unnerving time for thousands of people.
PINSKY: And Mrs. Daniels, did you have a chance -- we`re watching right now people actually come to the aid of other Hoosiers. Did you get to witness these heroic efforts?
C. DANIELS: I did not see all of the people who were rushing forward to help. At that time there was so much dust and dirt swirling around. And I had just decided after the announcement was made that the concert -- they were going to try to start the concert, and they had given the three buildings that people could move to if the storm changed.
When that announcement came, shortly after that I saw lightning to the west of the stage, and that`s when I made the decision to start moving toward another shelter. And I got down the stairs of the grandstand, and then I heard the screaming, and of course the wind had hit, the dust was rolling. And it all began.
PINSKY: OK. Now, we`re going to take another look at the stage collapse shot by iReporter Jessica Silas. Again, these pictures, videos are graphic. And you`re watching the moment people die here. And there that is.
Jessica, you actually shot that chilling video. Did you have some sense that the stage was about to collapse? Or was it just the weather, you were trying to photograph something dramatic happening?
JESSICA SILAS (ph), SHOT VIDEO OF COLLAPSE: It was just the weather. No one could have predicted that the stage was going to collapse.
I actually started videotaping because of all of the dust that started blowing up. Everyone in the crowd stood up and started pointing and screaming.
So that`s when I grabbed my camera and started videotaping to the left of the stage. And then out of the corner of my eye, I could see the top tarp on the stage start to blow off. And so I moved over and I started filming the stage, and that`s when the entire stage fell down.
PINSKY: Did you go towards the stage as well to help out afterwards?
SILAS: I did not. My mom came and grabbed me, and we evacuated to one of the buildings. But my dad, who is a doctor, he actually did run down there to try and start helping the people who had gotten trapped underneath it.
PINSKY: You know, it`s funny -- this is very emotional, this whole episode for me. You bring that up, your dad being a doctor.
And I want to remind young people out there that being of service is really one of the greatest things you can do in life. It makes meaning of everything. And to really have some skills that you can offer, it takes time to develop those things.
And if you hear the stories of a lot of the people were very helpful here, were nurses and EMTs and physicians. So you want to be of service and make meaning, develop those skills. They take some time to really be able to offer something.
Not to say that the average person couldn`t have something to offer. I mean, they needed heavy lifting and things, too. But just something to think about for young people that want to contribute. You can really contribute a lot if you develop a certain amount of skill.
Cory Whitehead was in the grandstand area at the Indiana State Fair to watch the Sugarland concert when the stage collapsed. Here`s his eyewitness account. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORY WHITEHEAD, STAGE COLLAPSE WITNESS: Hey, this is not good. We were in the grandstand right here, and the stage completely fell over.
The grandstand just fell over right on top of people. And there`s kind of a mad rush out right now.
It`s really dusty, so I don`t know what is happening. But we`re just praying for these people, because the stage is on top of hundreds of people right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow.
Now, Jen, you were also an eyewitness. Let me ask you this. There must have been chaos immediately following. I mean, people must have conflicted whether to go towards the stage or follow the direction to evacuate, or just run.
Was that mostly what you saw, people trying to find a direction?
JENNA GIOE, EYEWITNESS, INDIANA STAGE COLLAPSE: Absolutely. Everyone was in such shock, that no one knew what to do, like you were mentioning earlier.
So many people were rushing down there just out of instinct to try to help. So many people were rushing to evacuate because they were just so stunned by what had just happened. And a lot of people just stood there and didn`t know what to do at all because they were just in shock. But there was so much going on and so much mayhem at that time and so much confusion, that so many people wanted to evacuate because that storm system was coming at us so quickly.
PINSKY: Were people, like, I guess thinking something that worse could happen? There could be a tornado on the heels of this, or maybe more people could get hurt in some of the other buildings? Those kinds of thoughts flash through your head?
GIOE: Absolutely. I mean, it was a beautiful day, and it was very drastic, how the sky changed. And so I`m sure that it was running through my head, as well as others, that there could be a tornado or other severe weather headed our way that we definitely needed to take cover for.
PINSKY: Did you get to see some of the heroic efforts?
GIOE: I did. I was right next to, actually, the gates where you go from the grandstand down on to the track.
And so there was lots of especially men just jumping the gates, trying to get down there as fast as possible with -- to help or to do anything that they can to get people away, to get people out, to help comfort people, to get children. It was quite amazing.
PINSKY: Wow.
Now, just after Saturday night`s stage collapse, the evening`s feature musical act, Sugarland, sent this tweet: "We are all right. We are praying for our fans and the people of Indianapolis. We hope you will join us. They need your strength."
Sugarland`s opening act, Grammy-nominated singer Sara Bareilles, also tweeted after the collapse. Here`s what she said. "I`m speechless and I feel so helpless. Please send love and prayers to Indianapolis tonight. My heart aches for the lives lost."
Cheri, the stage area most impacted by the collapse was a so-called VIP section called the Sugar Pit, filled with Sugarland`s biggest fans. Do we know anything about the people that were injured or died in this accident?
C. DANIELS: Well, there were five fatalities in this accident. I know that some of them -- a couple of them were fans.
There was a security person from the state fair who was lost in this. There was a stagehand who was apparently up in the top of the stage, in the lighting area, which is where he would normally be for a concert. He was in position and his life was lost. I don`t know the background of the other three fatalities.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Mrs. Daniels. We will certainly keep checking in with you.
And again, our thoughts and prayers out to the Hoosiers and those who were affected by this terrible tragedy.
And we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recognize those individuals that lost their lives: Nathan Byrd, Glen Goodrich (ph), Elena Mijani (ph), Christina Santiago (ph), Tammy Van Dam (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So sad. The officials at the Indiana State Fair paid tribute today to the five people who lost their lives when a stage collapsed on Saturday night.
Joining me now is the governor of Indiana, Mitch Daniels, who was at that memorial service. Andrew Klotz is a spokesman for the Indiana State Fair.
Governor Daniels, thank you so much for joining me.
Now, in the middle of this horrible tragedy, there must be a bit of a silver lining here in the pride you must feel for the hero Hoosiers who surfaced on Saturday night.
M. DANIELS: That`d be right, Doctor. Not a surprise to me.
I`ve seen the character of the people of this state on display many times in natural disasters of other kinds, but it was very graphic on Saturday night. Unmistakable. Literally, scores of people rushing to the trouble, as opposed to away from it.
And many, many first responders, our state troopers and others told me that whoever these people were, regular citizens on either side of them, they enabled the debris to be moved more quickly, people to be extricated more quickly. Probably prevented more serious injuries.
PINSKY: It really might have been much worse. It really almost brings tears to your eyes when you see the speed at which people went towards the danger, as opposed to -- thinking about it, it makes me emotional right now.
I wonder if it`s all sort of a post-9/11 world we`re living in and we become accustomed to stepping up a bit.
But let me ask you this. Your wife and daughter -- I spoke to her a few minutes ago -- were at the event. This must have been a harrowing time for you wondering where they were, were they involved.
How did that go down for you?
M. DANIELS: The fact is that my wife was the first one to let me know it happened. She had -- as many had -- begun moving to evacuation sites, some buildings that had been opened right across the way from the grandstand. And so she reached me before anyone else did.
But, you know, the Daniels women are I guess pretty typical Hoosiers. We`re pretty resilient folks here, and Cheri was calm and wanted me to be.
PINSKY: And Governor, let me say, the term "Hoosier" does get tossed around, certainly in Indiana, and the rest of the country goes, oh, yes, that`s a college team. Right? But Hoosier actually -- I looked it up before I went on the air here. It actually means sort of a larger-than- life back woodsman, does it not? Or is that not the going sense of what it means?
M. DANIELS: It is as best we know. Every Indiana school child learns that the origins, the etymology of the word are in dispute.
But pretty obviously in the early frontier days it did connote somebody who made his way into the wilderness and probably did live a pretty rough life. And we use it with affection now, of course.
And when I used it today, I was thinking about those very qualities I guess we once associated with -- farm life, which we celebrate at the state fair, frontier life before that. And people who take responsibility for themselves, who care about their neighbors and can be counted on to come to the aid of a neighbor in distress.
PINSKY: And of course part of that rough nature is being able to withstand the weather in Indiana, which is notorious for changing in an instant.
Here`s what the Indiana State Police Sergeant, Dave Bursten, told reporters. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. DAVE BURSTEN, INDIANA STATE POLICE: In Indiana, the weather can change from one report to another report. And that was the case here.
And it really wasn`t the issue of the weather as it was with the high gust of wind. What`s remarkable about this is virtually throughout the rest of the fairgrounds, the midway particularly, there were no damages to structures there, which is continuing to lead us to believe this was an isolated significant wind gust that resulted in what occurred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Andrew, thank you for joining us as well.
Did the fair attendees heed the weather warning and evacuation alert?
ANDREW KLOTZ, SPOKESPERSON, INDIANA STATE FAIR: Well, what had actually happened, Doctor, is that we had let them know that there was severe weather on the way. We had directed them to go to these other buildings, but we didn`t tell them it was mandatory.
We were still evaluating the situation. We had a certified meteorologist right next to the grandstand interpreting the data. All of the powers that be to make that decision were right there and discussing it.
And we made an announcement to have them go. And then just a few minutes later, we said yes, we need to evacuate. And so, by the time in just those few minutes, from our first announcement, to the decision to not making it a suggestion, but mandatory, that is when that wind shear hit that roof and it collapsed.
PINSKY: Governor Daniels, you referred to the collapse as a fluke, and which indeed, of course, it was. But the same thing had happened at a Cheap Trick in Ottawa just last month.
Are these two events just random events, non-randomly coming one after another, or do we need to make a change in the standards for outdoor stadiums and that sort of thing?
M. DANIELS: Don`t know, Doctor. You`d have to ask someone more knowledgeable about I about these phenomena. But if there`s learning in this, obviously we`ll ask these questions and we`ll make changes if that seems warranted.
But it was just preyed on my mind that, standing there, realizing that, as you heard Sergeant Bursten say, literally a couple hundred yards away, no damage to anything of any kind. A fellow from the weather service that I interrogated about this said that, first of all, these winds, which were way out ahead of the storm, probably 15 minutes ahead of the actual storm, might have interacted with structures -- the grandstand, some other nearby buildings -- in a way that channeled that wind to one specific spot tragically for us here. Just the wrong spot, leaving the entirety of the rest of this massive fairgrounds untouched.
PINSKY: Well, I certainly hope that the Hoosiers can get on with their fair, but I also hope they will keep this tragedy in their heart and continue to think about those that were lost. And, oh, by the way, Governor, I hope all of us can take a page from the heroes in your state and do the same if we were ever called upon.
Thank you for joining us. I do appreciate it.
M. DANIELS: Appreciate it.
PINSKY: When we come back, Casey Anthony returns to Florida. Now, you`ve got something to say about that, and I`m listening.
And later, vanished in Aruba. Today`s developments regarding the missing American. Do authorities have a murder on their hands? I`m going to look at that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, ORANGE COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT: I would like to call the Department of Corrections to find out what things can be done consistent with the law to satisfy the conditions of probation, but also make sure that she is also protected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judge Perry is so done with this case.
Boy, many of you have an opinion about Judge Perry`s decision ordering Casey Anthony to order a year of probation.
We posted a poll question today on our Web site asking you this: "Do you think that Casey can prove to be a law-abiding citizen by serving a year of supervised probation for her check fraud case?"
Here are the results. Eleven percent of you said yes, 79 percent of you said no, and 10 percent said you`re not sure or you just don`t care probably. So I think most people are not convinced that probation is going to do much for Casey Anthony.
Let us go to the phones.
Cynthia in Illinois, go ahead.
CYNTHIA, ILLINOIS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Cynthia.
CYNTHIA: I just want to make a comment. This whole probation thing is like letting Casey go to the people who hate her the most. Somebody is going to get hurt. And two wrongs don`t make a right.
People need to let it go. The truth will come out one day. And I think everyone needs to just calm down.
PINSKY: Well, Cynthia, I actually kind of agree with you on one level. I`ve been very concerned that something bad is going to happen to her. And that`s why I`ve been asking people repeatedly who are saying she should go back to Orlando is, isn`t that putting her in harm`s way? Some say yes, some say no.
She apparently does have some security. It seems like she`s going to end up there though.
On Facebook, Keith asks, "Could you explain more as to why you think Casey`s reports about treatment are overstated, why they didn`t pass your sniff test?"
Because I can`t see what kind of treatment they`re talking about, guys. It just doesn`t sound right to me.
If she`s an addict, she should be committed to three to six months somewhere. If she has a personality disorder, which is what we all think is going on here, that`s going to take years to treat. And so no one is going to talk about intensive treatment really changing anything.
If this is some sort of a grief treatment or trauma treatment for what she has been through, OK. Well, that could take a few weeks. But that is not going to divert her legal obligations or send her to some part of the country where she has to be kept away from everybody.
It just doesn`t all make sense to me. So that`s the sniff test I`m talking about. The pieces aren`t quite fitting together.
And, by the way, particularly for addiction and personality disorders, if they`re going to get better, they have to really want to get better. And I don`t think any of us have seen Casey showing that kind of motivation.
Mary Anne wants to know, "Considering Casey`s penchant for screwing up and behaving irresponsibly, what are the odds she`ll say within the terms of her probation?"
And I think that`s more to the point here, that the probation can help. It keeps things structured, it keeps them sort of -- in fact I want to follow up with a Twitter from Greg to this very point. He says, "In your personal experience, did probation help a patient of yours adjust back to society?"
Yes, it does. Being on probation can help people be structured and accountable. And, you know, you do drug testing, you check them. And it does help them a great deal.
But in Casey`s case, again, I think we`re going to see some more trouble here. I don`t think that`s going to be sufficient to keep her contained given the kinds of problems we think we`re seeing here.
Later now, details about possible witnesses in the trial of Michael Jackson`s doctor. Will the defense argue Jackson did it to himself? They`re going to put Jackson on trial for Murray`s -- I don`t get it.
But next, an American beauty vanishes in Aruba. She`s been missing for more than two weeks. Could this be murder?
We`ll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Robyn Gardner missing in Aruba for almost two weeks. The prime suspect, this man. The FBI raided his home. What did they find?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Described as a stone of fortress complete with multiple cameras.
PINSKY: Other women accuse him of vile behavior. What are they saying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A woman claimed that he beat her, choked her.
PINSKY: I`m talking to her best friend and his former lawyer.
And later, exclusive details about a key witness in Michael Jackson`s manslaughter trial. Will the defense argue Jackson did it to himself? Who is on trial here anyway? The King of Pop or his doctor?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Tonight, what really happened to an American beauty in Aruba? Thirty-five-year-old Robyn Gardner simply vanished. Disappeared almost two weeks ago while on the Tropical Island. Robyn was staying in the very same resort town where teenager, Natalee Holloway, was last seen in 2005. Authorities in Aruba believe that Robyn Gardner is dead. And the focus is on her travel companion, Gary Giordano.
Now, this guy has a history of -- allegedly, violent behaviors towards women, trolling the internet for women. His ex-wife wrote in court papers that he, quote, well, that "he can`t control his anger," she alleges. Of course these are major red flags. Take a listen to what a woman who dated Gary had to say about his aggressive behavior.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was erratic. He was a little violent. Like, one time, I happened to touch his hair by accident, and he like, literally, like, yanked my arm really hard, and that was like really scary. And, he was let`s say quite physically aggressive inappropriately. Apparently, he has cameras in his house where he videotapes people, and he has cameras all around his home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Gary was back in court today, and according to Ann Angela with the Aruban prosecutor`s office, Gary Giordano will remain in custody for 16 more days as they put this case together all in accordance with Aruban law.
Joining me tonight, Robyn Gardner`s best friends, Lianne Delawter and Reese Armstrong. Here via phone is Bob Flynn, Gary Giordano`s former attorney. And CNN reporter, Martin Savidge, is live in Aruba. Martin, can you tell us what happened in court today?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN REPORTER: Well, this really was a major victory for the prosecution. They had gone in there, and they were going to argue that they wanted, at least, for Gary Giordano to be detained for another eight days. And, of course, his defense attorney was going to argue that look, there`s no evidence. There`s no proof of wrong doing here. At the very least, very worst, he was merely witness to what appears to have been a horrible accident.
But the ruling comes down for the judge that, no, it`s not going to be eight days. The judge, a woman in this particular case, rules that it will be 16 days. So, they doubled the request of the prosecution. And it also means that not only is he going to be held longer, but he`s going to be moved. Up until this point, he`s been held at a police station in San Nicholas, not far from the beach where Robyn Gardner was last seen.
And now, he`s going to the KIA, as they called it. That stands for the Correctional Institute of Aruba. It`s the island`s only prison. He`ll be moved there tomorrow -- Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Now, Carrie Emerson, another woman had contact with Giordano, told the "Today Show" Giordano also offered to take her to Aruba about the same time he invited Gardner to the island. And, apparently, he wanted to do a photo shoot there with Emerson`s teen daughter who is a model. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARRIE EMERSON, DAUGHTER CONTACTED BY GIORDANO TO MODEL: He called us wanting for her to come model for him in Aruba. He was just very relaxed when he called. He was too relaxed. He called. He asked for her modeling name, and I just -- I said in her voice pretty much, you know, yes, and he said, hey, this is Gary. What are you up to? Like it was somebody I knew. And I knew I hadn`t talked to this person before. So, that was a red flag right there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Martin, we`re looking at footage here of "Today Show" of a young girl who looks a little scarily like Robyn, I must tell you. And I guess, as well, the FBI raided his home. Did they come up with any evidence from that home raid that you`re aware of or the search? And can they use the evidence like we saw on the "Today Show" this morning to keep him there locked up?
SAVIDGE: You asked me? I`m sorry.
PINSKY: Yes.
SAVIDGE: Yes, they did search the home over the weekend. We don`t know exactly what evidence has been found. We do know that, of course, the FBI was working in cooperation with Aruban authorities, but here is the key point. They`re going to be looking at the computers in that home, because they believe if there is any preplanning for any of this regarding Robyn Gardner`s disappearance, that evidence could lie digitally stored in the computers.
And that`s what the Aruban authorities want to see. They`ve also been checking the smart phones, they`ve been checking text messages, and they`ve been checking cameras. So, that`s where they`ve been focusing their attention, but they want to hear from the FBI.
PINSKY: Thank you, Martin. Now, take a listen to Robyn`s roommate, Christina Jones, talking about Robyn`s disappearance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINA JONES, ROBYN GARDNER`S ROOMMATE: It was a bit of a roller coaster friendship. And some days, he was nice, other days he wasn`t. Nothing is as difficult as not getting on a plane and going to try and find my friend. This truthfully is about a man and a woman that went away on a vacation together, and she didn`t come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Reese, that is Christina, Robyn`s roommate, and I guess, your friend as well.
REESE ARMSTRONG, FRIEND OF ROBYN GARDNER: Yes.
PINSKY: What was she doing? What was she up to? Why did she go away with this guy that everyone thought might be a little creepy?
ARMSTRONG: Well, I think, now, we really know that he`s creepy with the women coming forward. Prior to that, I guess, there was some, maybe, hesitation in Christina`s mind about Robyn going on this trip, but given the circumstance having just lost her job, maybe having a bit of a rough time, you know, when you`re in that moment of stress, who knows, you know, a trip to anywhere can sound so fantastic.
PINSKY: Now, Leeann and Reese, I want to ask both you guys. I talked to her boyfriend last week, and he said, yes, we had a couple of fights, and I guess, the police got called once. She had a little problem with alcohol, maybe, but he didn`t lead me to believe that there was anything wrong in their relationship or he claimed the fact, you know, that this was stunning, and he can`t imagine that she was cheating on him. Can you give us any insight? What was going on here?
LIANNE DELAWTER, FRIEND OF ROBYN GARDNER: I can`t really say what happens between a man and a woman. I can`t say what happens between Richard and Robyn. Robyn can only say that. Richard can only say that. What we can say is that our friend trusted this man, Gary Giordano, and went away with him, and she didn`t come back. And that`s what we`re here is to find our friend. Not to ponder what Richard and Robyn`s relationship was.
PINSKY: Well, no, no. Listen, I`m not -- listen, Richard seems like an upstanding guy, and I`m sure they -- whatever. They`re young people and they (INAUDIBLE) relationships, but the fact is, I mean, is this out of -- and you`re her girlfriends. You know, she would confide in you things that maybe she wouldn`t confide in her boyfriend, and we`re all trying to make sense of why this woman would suddenly go with this guy and take off. Was she prone to that kind of thing? I mean, how do you make sense of all this?
DELAWTER: Well, I believe that Gary was a friend of Robyn`s previous to this for a couple of years. So, it`s not like you`re just meeting some stranger and going away. She was going through a difficult time. And, you know, the opportunity itself. We`re finding out that Gary can be very gregarious and convincing people to do things. And, I just think that with everything that was going on in her life, she said, yes, sure I`ll go.
(CROSSTALK)
DELAWTER: Right. I think that, you know, she trusted him, because he was her friend. And because she did have that history that she did know him for awhile. You know, she never thought anything about it. It was just going away with a friend.
PINSKY: She wasn`t carrying on with this guy. It was just a friend. I get it. All right. Now, Bob Flynn, I want to go to you. These allegations against your former client trolling the internet for women, dating young ladies, now, the disappearance of Robyn. Does this sound like the guy you represented?
VOICE OF BOB FLYNN, FORMER GIORDANO ATTORNEY: It doesn`t sound even remotely like the guy that I represented. He certainly liked to have a good time. Once he was actually separated from his wife and divorced, I know he liked to try and meet new people. He had what I`ve described as a salesman-type personality, but this kind of activity is a shock to me.
PINSKY: So, from your perspective, Bob, as somebody who knows him, I mean, the judge and jury of the court of public opinion is sort moving in a certain direction. Can you dissuade us from that based on how you understood him to be?
FLYNN: Well, I think so in a few ways. One is that I think that any person`s behavior and activity when scrutinized under the microscope such as his right now, there`s going to be some things that come out and don`t look quite as good as they would normally. I think every one of us is going to have the skeletons to some extent.
Secondarily, this person did not act impulsively almost ever. Throughout everything that I worked through with him, he was very careful in his planning, you know, almost everything that he did. He didn`t react angrily when things happened. Just as an example, the one protective order in which I worked with him related to his first wife, Sharon.
he hit him with a spoon, and instead of reacting and hitting her back, he actually left the house, went out, and sat in a car, called the police and asked for assistance to keep the matter from escalating any further. And, to me, that kind of behavior doesn`t square with someone that would have done something impulsive in Aruba.
PINSKY: Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it. Reese and Lianne, thanks for joining us as well.
Next, is Conrad Murray`s defense team putting Michael Jackson on trial? Will this blame game backfire? Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Tonight, more details about the Michael Jackson death trial. The defense`s possible witnesses are revealed. Dr. Conrad Murray is charged with involuntary manslaughter in the pop icon`s death. He is scheduled to go on trial next month. Now, will the blame game figure into his defense? The question I`m asking is, who is on trial here? Dr. Murray, or perhaps, all the doctors who came before Dr. Murray who, apparently, have some culpability here?
Or are they trying to lay the blame at great superstar (ph), himself? Is he the one on trial? Will this work for Dr. Murray or backfire with the jury? Joining me to answer those questions are Jen Heger, legal editor for Radar Online, she`s very much in the loop on this case, Dr. Sandeep Kapoor who is tried and found not guilty in Anna Nicole Smith trial, and Lisa Bloom, defense attorney and author of "Think." Start out here. Let`s take a look at Katherine Jackson this morning. Watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: I think Michael would have been really proud if he`s here today. This is a concert that he would really have loved. And, that`s why I`m supporting it.
KAREEN WYNTER, HLN`S "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": I have to ask, though, with the timing of the trial, and I know you don`t want to go in the specifics, but I do want to mention not all the family members, the Jackson family members, are on board, for example, Jermaine and Randy. In fact, they went as far as issuing a joint statement recently saying, we want to make it clear that this does not reflect the position of the entire family. I have to ask, Miss Jackson, why now with the timing of the Conrad Murray trial?
JACKSON: Well, the trial is very important. And I can understand how Randy and Jermaine feel, but it`s been two years. And, when these gentlemen came to me and talked about it, I thought it was a good idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Jen, I`m going to ask you the same question. Does the timing seem a little odd to you?
JEN HEGER, LEAGAL EDITOR, RADAR ONLINE: I don`t know if the timing seems odd. You know, this trial was postponed earlier this year. It was supposed to start in May. So, perhaps, there were negotiations with Mrs. Jackson and the promoters for the show to have it at this time, and then, unbeknownst to them, that --
PINSKY: Outside of their control just happened to coincide.
HEGER: I think that`s what happened.
PINSKY: Fair enough. I understand that Katherine needs to raise money, too. I mean, she can`t get money out of the estate. She has issues I keep hearing. So, it makes sense that she`s trying to sustain herself, I guess.
HEGER: I think Dr. Conrad Murray`s involuntary manslaughter trial is here in the United States. This concert is going to be in Wales, England. I think they`re completely separate. I think the timing isn`t great, but I don`t think there is anything more that can read into it.
PINSKY: Fair enough, Now, Jen, my understanding is you have some new information tonight about the defense.
HEGER: Yes, I do. Sources connected to the case tell me that it`s likely that Dr. Arnold Klein will be called to testify on behalf of the defense. He most likely will be asked about his prescription use -- his prescribing Demerol to Michael Jackson in the weeks leading up to his death. Now, sources also connected to the case have told me throughout that Dr. Murray was unaware that Dr. Klein was treating Michael Jackson at the same time.
PINSKY: At the same time that Murray now was in attendance.
HEGER: Yes.
PINSKY: And were other doctors -- I keep hearing this, too. There had been other doctors, perhaps, prescribing propofol?
HEGER: There could be other doctors that did prescribe propofol. In the late 1990s, Dr. Neil Ratner, an anesthesiologist, traveled with Michael Jackson internationally on his world tour. At that time, in the late 1990s, he had medical equipment in Michael Jackson`s hotel rooms at night to bring him down and bring him back up. I`m told that sources -- my sources tell me that one of the first questions if Dr. Ratner is put on the stand is, what were you doing?
PINSKY: That`s a good question. Dr. Kapoor, I want to ask you. What was he doing? We have an anesthesiologist that basically brings anesthesia cart into the bedroom for sleep and administers a medication that shouldn`t be seen outside of a hospital or ICU. Are you -- does that seem as bizarre as --
DR. SANDEEP KAPOOR, CLEARED OF CHARGES IN ANNA NICOLE`S DEATH: I think either case. I mean, I think the cases have documented when they have had anesthesiologists actually abused propofol themselves are the only indications we have. So, its used outside of the hospital setting is absolutely unheard of.
PINSKY: How about an anesthesia cart to help somebody sleep? I mean, that to me is crazy. That`s nuts.
KAPOOR: It might have had monitoring (ph).
PINSKY: I understand that`s what they were doing. At least, he had the monitoring equipment to use the propofol, but the idea of using an anesthetic, basically, an anesthesia --
KAPOOR: Unbelievable.
PINSKY: Unbelievable. Lisa, you agree it`s unbelievable?
LISA BLOOM, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, because sleep is not the same thing as sedation, as I understand it. That`s what you get with propofol, a sedation.
PINSKY: That`s (INAUDIBLE).
BLOOM: What?
PINSKY: That`s coma, basically.
BLOOM: Wow. Right, because you can perform surgery.
PINSKY: Then, people don`t breathe.
KAPOOR: The cycles that you would normally do with a sleep that`s restorative. So, you don`t get that from anesthesia. I mean, you use it very sparingly, obviously, for surgery. So, you don`t net get any restorative sleep.
PINSKY: Lisa, what about this blame game for the defense? Is this a strategy that`s going to work?
BLOOM: I think this is very important, Dr. Drew, because the defense needs another villain in the courtroom. Right now, the villain is Dr. Murray. He`s a terrible guy who supposedly killed Michael Jackson. So, the defense needs to deflect that. They need another villain in the courtroom. And if they can point to all these other doctors who supposedly ministered propofol and other medication, they may be able to do that.
Look at the Casey Anthony case. George Anthony, I think, became the alternate villain in that courtroom, and there was an acquittal. In the Michael Jackson case, the accuser`s mother became the alternate villain in the courtroom, and there was an acquittal. So, it`s a very sophisticated and effective defense strategy to point the finger at somebody else.
PINSKY: What if the judge steps in right then and goes, I`ll deal with those guys later. There`ll be separate -- or maybe law enforcement needs to deal with them at a later date. Let`s focus on Dr. Murray, no?
HEGER: I don`t think -- my sources tell me that no other doctors in this case are going to be charged. We have, you know, nine doctors on the defense witness list that Michael Jackson worked with over a decade. That`s a lot of doctors. And these doctors, we also -- I understand, you know, that there`s a blame game that people think that they`re diverting attention from Dr. Murray, but these were doctors that were treating Michael Jackson at the time that he died that dr. Murray was unaware of.
BLOOM: That`s important for the defense, because if he didn`t know about other medication, he`s less responsible for the death caused by the medication.
PINSKY: So, once again --
BLOOM: But the coroner said it was a combination of medication.
PINSKY: My concern, and I know that you agree with me on this is the problem is we`re putting now the blame back on the patient. And that really is not where the blame belongs. We`re going to have more on the blame game. Will it work? After we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. I have to clear something up in regards to what Jen Heger reported a few minutes ago about Dr. Arnold Klein. We have calling Dr. Klein. We have not heard back. We`re continuing now to discuss Michael Jackson, Conrad Murray, and the other doctors who maybe -- may have been involved in this, Michael`s possible defense.
And the question I asked if you`re going out was, is it appropriate -- Lisa, I`m going to go to you -- to blame the patient? It`s almost as though Michael Jackson is going to be on trial here, and that seems to be one of the areas the defense is focusing.
BLOOM: I think the defense has to tread very, very carefully when talking about Michael Jackson. He was a very well loved person, probably the most famous man in the world the time that he died. I remember, after his child sexual abuse case, some of the jurors said not my Michael. Now, they felt very connected with him on the way that people do with celebrities.
PINSKY: So, that could really backfire.
BLOOM: I think that`s right. I think if they talk about him as a known addict, I think that`s OK. They`re safe with that, because we all know about his drug problems. But beyond that, going after him, trying to throw dirt at him is really going to be damaging for the defense.
PINSKY: My understanding, Jen, also is the Jackson family dynamics are not going to be allowed in the courtroom, is that correct?
HEGER: That is correct. Much of Michael Jackson`s private life will not be on trial.
PINSKY: Which is good, I think.
BLOOM: Nor should be.
PINSKY: Yes. Nor should be. Now, Dr. Kapoor, you were the physician at the table, and so, I want to bring this back to you and me, which is blaming a patient. This really troubles me. You know, if a patient dies and we, all the doctors, sit and look at each other and go, wow, we did something wrong, but, you know, it`s his fault because he demanded the medicine.
We`ve got to really search our professional souls and decide where we failed this patient, and isn`t that really what`s -- it may not, I agree, it may not just be Dr. Murray, maybe a lot of other people. Do you agree with on this?
KAPOOR: And I think the health care system failed Michael Jackson along the way.
PINSKY: Yes. Right.
KAPOOR: I mean, because he was -- you know, he had the money to isolate himself or to pick and choose how he ran his care, perhaps, I`m not sure, but bringing in different doctors and sort of running your own care is not the way, you know, any professional or any physician should --
PINSKY: And Lisa, real quick, I only got about 45 seconds or so, but you, and I know Jen, and all of us have seen the way just having a celebrity with a doctor can be a bad relationship just from the beginning.
BLOOM: That`s right.
PINSKY: Because doctors fall victim to the same thing that other people do as treating celebrity different.
BLOOM: The celebrity worship, going gaga and giving them whatever they want.
PINSKY: That`s a mistake.
BLOOM: Just by devil`s advocate, what is Michael Jackson didn`t reveal other medications that he was taking, right? Or what if he self- administered medication, wouldn`t he have some responsibility in that situation?
PINSKY: I don`t like blaming addicts for bad outcomes. I mean, except -- you can blame them for not doing their treatment and you can get frustrated with that, but if, particularly, we made some missteps as physicians, we can at least take the responsibility for the missteps --
BLOOM: Here here. You`re my first choice for doctor then.
HEGER: But, it seems to me there has to be some responsibility on Michael Jackson, because he was essentially shopping for doctors until he got what he wanted.
PINSKY: But I agree with Dr. Kapoor, the health care system did not - - it should have been picked up. We should have seen it. They should have been referred (ph) for something more. Thank you to my panel.
Just quickly a few more words before we go about the Indiana tragedy and about the people who rushed to help the others after the stage collapsed. We are getting ready to mark the ten-year anniversary of the terror attacks on America, of course, 9/11, and this whole event made me wonder if this latest response to tragedy is some sort of post 9/11 ethos that`s developing. Our instinct now is to, maybe, run toward danger and confront it.
I get emotional about this for some reason. We don`t run away. I want to salute each and every one of you who did something at that fair Saturday night, especially my colleagues in all aspects of medicine, nursing, EMT, paramedics, whomever you were that run in there and volunteer.
This brought out the best in Americans, and I want to thank you to the Hoosiers in Indiana for reminding us of this. Our sincerest condolences out to you all who are affected by this event. Thank you for watching. I`ll see you next time.
END
