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Nancy Grace
Bride to Be, Missing in Her Own House; A 7-Month-Old Baby Thrown from the Fourth Floor Parking Area
Aired August 25, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Fairfield. A beautiful young bride vanishes without a trace, 22-year-old art student set to marry, Katelyn Markham, disappears from her own condo midnight.
Bombshell tonight. Only clue to the missing bride, a mysterious text the bride sends midnight. Tonight, where`s 22-year-old bride Katelyn Markham?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Fairfield 911. Where is your emergency?
JOHN CARTER, FIANCE: I know that you`re not supposed to report a missing person after -- before 24 hours, but my fiancee is missing. I can`t find her anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katelyn Markham...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vanished without a trace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are searching for the 22-year-old.
CARTER: She stays in a house by herself, so I`m just -- I`m really nervous. Her car is still there.
She would never just take off and go somewhere.
She would be at work right now with her car, which is why I`m, like, really freaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they`re not ruling anything out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s not (INAUDIBLE)
CARTER: Sacred Heart festival is going on right up the street. And there`s a lot of questionable people there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, California. A young mother of three and her 7-month-old boy disappear, daddy frantically calling 911. Then a female pedestrian gets the shock of a lifetime. The baby boy, just 7 months old, falling a full four stories, the baby falling over the railing of a parking garage to his death. But who -- who -- would target a 7- month-old baby boy? Tonight, we know the answer. Mommy!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is very tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 7-month-old infant boy was flung from the fourth level of a parking deck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was the fourth level.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby boy found bleeding on the pavement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. The 7-month-old toddler has died.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She left him there to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His own mother, according to California police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While her husband showered, she apparently took off with the baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believed from the outset that this wasn`t an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The one witness that was walking by did say that he was just -- he was falling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After questioning the baby`s mother, they booked her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charges against the boy`s mom have now been upgraded to murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are treating it as a crime scene. We do have detectives on scene. We`re checking videotape.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say the 31-year-old mom...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... took the baby and dropped him off the fourth level of the parking structure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A beautiful young bride vanishing without a trace. Only clue we have tonight, a mysterious text message the bride sends around midnight. Tonight, where is 22-year-old bride Katelyn Markham?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Katelyn`s father and other family members fought back the tears.
911 OPERATOR: Is she on any medications or anything?
CARTER: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want her to come home, and I expect her to walk through that door any day.
911 OPERATOR: Has she had thoughts of suicide or anything like that?
CARTER: No.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Where did you see her last?
CARTER: I saw her at, like, 12:00 o`clock last night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All hoping that Katelyn is safe and comes home soon.
CARTER: She stays in a house by herself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police still have very little to go on.
CARTER: So I`m just -- I`m really nervous. Her car is still there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And say they`re not ruling anything out.
911 OPERATOR: OK, where...
CARTER: Her purse is still...
911 OPERATOR: Is there an address, like a...
CARTER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Probably got, like, maybe seven hours of sleep this whole week. I`ve been thinking about it non-stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live tonight, taking your calls. This bride-to-be, set to walk down the aisle, disappears around midnight, last seen around 11:30 PM. She sends a mysterious text message, then never heard from again. When police go into her townhome where she lived, everything looked pristine and perfect -- no theft, no burglary, no forced entry, nothing amiss whatsoever.
Straight out to Karin Johnson with WLWT. Karin, you`re there at Katelyn`s home. What can you tell us?
KARIN JOHNSON, WLWT CORRESPONDENT: You know, Nancy, this is a bizarre case. I can tell you that she went missing just days before her 22nd birthday. Family and friends spent her birthday searching for her instead of celebrating her birthday.
GRACE: You are right there outside of her home. I`m very curious about the series of events, the timeline. Karin Johnson joining us tonight live, WLWT. Tell me exactly how that timeline went down.
JOHNSON: Well, Nancy, I can tell you from talking to her fiance, John Carter -- he tells me he left the home between 11:00 and 11:30 Saturday night. He then received a text message from her. It was dated 12:52. I saw the text message. It was just a picture of herself. That was 12:52 Sunday morning. She was supposed to go to work. She never showed up for work Sunday. And he went to her house between 7:00 and 7:30 Sunday night, and that`s when he says her car was there but she was not inside her townhome.
GRACE: OK, hold on. Let`s just back it up just a moment. To Kelsey Cano, staff reporter with "Hamilton Journal News." Kelsey, thank you for being with us. I`m hearing the timeline from Karin Johnson as set forth by the fiance. And that text message -- Liz, am I seeing the text message? Is that what was sent? Liz, that`s a yes/no. OK. If we have the text message, let me see it.
Kelsey Cano, so the text message didn`t say anything, Kelsey, it was just a picture of her, the bride, sent to her fiance?
KELSEY CANO, "HAMILTON JOURNAL NEWS" (via telephone): Yes. To my knowledge, he showed the media at a search. And it was just a picture of a picture that she sent to John.
GRACE: Wait! Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait! Now, hold on right there. Kelsey, you`re saying -- first of all, Karin Johnson said it was a picture. But you`re saying it was a picture of a picture?
CANO: Correct. It was a picture of a picture.
GRACE: Oh, right now -- that`s just -- that`s not making any sense to me.
CANO: Right.
GRACE: She sends him a picture of a picture around midnight, is that correct?
CANO: Right. John actually received the photo, the text message, at 12:52 AM the day that she was reported missing. And her phone was actually turned off at 12:45. So her phone was turned off before he received the picture. So normal delay with sending picture messages over a phone, but he received the picture after the phone was turned off.
GRACE: You know, I didn`t realize a normal delay for a photo was seven minutes. But you know, let`s get all the answers because right now joining us, special guest, is the fiance of bride-to-be Katelyn Markham. He was with her just before she goes missing. John Carter, thank you for being with us.
CARTER (via telephone): Thank you.
GRACE: John, did she normally send a picture of a picture? Why didn`t she snap herself and send it?
CARTER: I`m sorry. Here`s what the situation was. She had actually sent -- after I had left her house, she had actually sent me a couple of actual text messages about things that she wanted me to do to help her out because she had to work and go to school so much. Then -- she normally sends me pictures of things. Her boss at her internship is a really good photographer, and he took some pictures of her that were really, really good and she wanted to show them to me. And that was one of them.
GRACE: OK, I`ve got a question.
CARTER: It was one of the pictures that he had taken.
GRACE: I got a question, John Carter. You were just there in the townhome with her. Why didn`t she just show you the pictures? Why did she text you a picture of a picture?
CARTER: I mean, I don`t know. They were up in her room. You know, she just -- she likes to send me pictures all the time. She always has.
GRACE: You said that she also sent you a couple text messages of things she wanted you to do. What did she want you to do?
CARTER: Well, to be honest, she had some legal documents, like bills, and like her school schedule, things like that. And she wanted me to dispose of them. And the series of text messages that she sent to me -- I had sent her after I had gotten rid of them. I just said, I got rid of them. They`re all gone. And she wanted me to burn them. So it`s, like, I burnt the message -- or I burnt your documents. And she was, like, Oh, I kind of wanted to be there. And I was, like, Well, I have documents I need to burn, so you can be there when I burn mine. And then she just wrote back a message saying, like, Oh, OK. And then she sent me the picture message, and then that was it.
GRACE: OK, I don`t understand what`s happening. Why were you burning documents?
CARTER: Because she has -- she was going to be moving out of her house. She didn`t want to be bringing all these documents with her, and they were just old, old stuff -- like old bank statements, old things like that. All of her current bank statements, everything like that -- they`re all still in the house. They`re all still there and everything like that, so...
GRACE: OK. All right. Now, let me ask you this. I understand that you have taken a polygraph?
CARTER: Yes.
GRACE: When did you take a polygraph?
CARTER: The second day she went missing, I believe.
GRACE: Did you pass the polygraph?
CARTER: Yes.
GRACE: What questions did police ask you?
CARTER: If I knew where she was, and if I know anything pertaining to her disappearance.
GRACE: Everyone, we are talking about a beautiful young bride, Katelyn Markham, just 22 years old. She`s 5-3, 130 pounds, brown hair with blond highlights, beautiful green eyes. She disappears from her own townhome around midnight. The only clue we have is a mysterious text message she sent just before she disappears.
I want to go to John Lucich, criminal investigator, president of Eforensics. John, the delay is disturbing. The message was sent at 12:45 AM -- wait. Excuse me. Her phone was cut off at 12:45 AM. How can a picture then be sent at 12:52 AM?
JOHN LUCICH, FMR. CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR: Right. You know, there`s -- it doesn`t make sense, Nancy, and there`s a lot of things that don`t make sense with this. But what they`re going to have to do is take a look -- you know, it`s going to come down to network congestion. I cannot believe that there`s any type of network congestion at that time. That cell phone`s going to be key because number one, just because it was sent from her cell phone doesn`t mean that she sent that text or those pictures.
Number two -- you know, and John`s got to understand that because she`s close to the family like this, people look at him but that`s natural. But that being said, the one thing that just strikes me different is that he tells your reporter he left her -- or last saw her between 11:00 and 11:30, and yet he told the 911 people that he last saw her at midnight. So these kind of things that don`t -- that don`t match...
GRACE: You know, that is a very important issue in the timeline.
Back to you, John Carter. You`re the fiance. You knew her best. When did you last see her?
CARTER: I saw her between 11:00 and 11:30. I had left her house because she said she was tired. She had to go to work. And I was -- you know...
GRACE: OK...
CARTER: That`s how it`s always been.
GRACE: I got it. Now, let me clear this up about the text message. You`re saying her phone was cut off at 12:45, but she sent...
CARTER: I don`t know exactly when her phone was cut off.
GRACE: OK, what time did...
CARTER: The police are saying that.
GRACE: ... she send the message?
CARTER: I`m sorry. Go ahead.
GRACE: But she sent the message at 12:52?
CARTER: Yes. I mean, I got the picture message then, yes.
GRACE: Yes. OK, everybody. Take a look at this beautiful young girl. Katelyn Markham is just 22. A rising art student set to graduate and set to marry, she goes missing from her own townhome. Tonight, her fiance, who saw her last, is with us taking your calls.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Have you called the hospitals or jails or anything? Where was she at midnight last night when you last saw her?
CARTER: She was at her house. She was going to bed. She wasn`t going out to do anything. So she would have been in her bed. And I`ve been with her for six years. She`s not deceiving. You know, she doesn`t...
Katelyn Helene (ph) Markham.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Carter says he last saw Katelyn around 11:30 Saturday night.
CARTER: I can`t find her anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a big mystery. I mean, there don`t seem to be any real clues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one can explain who or what made Katelyn disappear.
CARTER: No response, no response. I call her, no response.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And described his daughter as bubbly and full of life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Katelyn is a breath of fresh air.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Instead of celebrating Katelyn Markham`s birthday, family, friends and police are searching for the 22-year-old.
CARTER: I am, like, really freaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Friends and family are trying everything they can to get Katelyn`s name and face out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody who knows something to say, just speak up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Looking anywhere and everywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please bring Katelyn home. That`s all that matters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They light candles to represent her light and show their hope still lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: At what should have been the happiest time of her life, this young bride-to-be, just 22 years old, a rising art student, set to be married, disappears from her own condo. She`s not out walking the street, going from bar to bar, broken down on the side of the road in a car, where you would typically expect bad things to go down. No, she`s at home minding her own business. The only clue, a text message sent around midnight to her fiance. He is joining us, along with the entire panel, taking your questions live. We`re live in Fairfield.
To Monica in Ohio. Hi, Monica. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would just like to know why every time that he is interviewed, he talks about Katelyn in past tense. He says, I loved her, She was passionate about art. This was all said in the WLW interview that I heard on the local radio station.
GRACE: Let`s go to Karin Johnson with WLWT. Is that true? Has he referred to her in the past tense, Karin?
JOHNSON: You know, Nancy, I have interviewed him personally. And yes, there are -- he goes back and forth. I listened to the interview I did with him several times. There have been times where he talked about her in the past tense, but there have been times he talked about her in the present tense, as well.
GRACE: You know, let`s go back and let him explain himself. John Carter is with us. He`s the fiance of the missing bride, Katelyn Markham. And John, as you know, police always start with the husband, the boyfriend, the fiance, the ex-boyfriend because, statistically, that`s who`s responsible when women are found dead or they go missing.
You, however, have agreed to a polygraph. You`ve come on our show and are answering questions that the public is asking you along with me. Now, John, that says a lot to me about your innocence. But it is unusual. According to reporters, you have spoken of her in the past tense.
CARTER: I have spoken of her in the past tense because she is currently missing. And I only used the past tense because I don`t know what else to use. And it`s really confusing when I`m talking to so many people about it, you know, what direction I can go. And it`s insanely hard to deal with a lot of this stuff. So I deal with a lot of stress.
And I just want to reiterate the fact that I just really want Katelyn home. That`s all that matters to me. I don`t care if people are, you know, talking about me. Whatever. As long as we`re focused on Katelyn Markham and bringing Katelyn Markham home, that is all I want.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Fairfield 911. Where is your emergency?
CARTER: My name is John Carter. I`m calling -- I know that you`re not supposed to report a missing person after -- before 24 hours, but my fiancee is missing. I can`t find her anywhere.
911 OPERATOR: OK, where did you see her last?
CARTER: I saw her at, like, 12:00 o`clock last night. She stays in a house by herself, so she -- I`m just -- I`m really nervous. Her car is still there.
911 OPERATOR: OK, where at?
CARTER: Her purse is still...
911 OPERATOR: Is there an address, like...
CARTER: Yes, Dorshire (ph) Drive. Dorshire, yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
CARTER: Woke up after a horrible dream. She wasn`t dead in the dream or anything like that, but I just -- you know, it was just a really bad dream. I didn`t want to have it. I don`t want to -- I go to sleep -- I take solace in sleep because I don`t have to think. But then I wake up. And that`s the worst part, is waking up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls, and joining us to talk about the disappearance of his fiancee, a bride set to walk down the aisle, an art student set to graduate, is her fiance, John Carter.
John, tell me about the dream you were referring to.
CARTER: Her engagement ring?
GRACE: Dream. Dream.
CARTER: Oh, dream? I don`t remember too much about the dream. It was really choppy. I just remember waking up feeling like, She`s still gone and I have nothing. There`s no evidence. There`s no anything. She`s just simply gone. And I -- and it`s driving me crazy. It`s still insanely hard to wake up in the morning, knowing that I still won`t know where she is and I still won`t have her back and -- and -- I`m just hoping that...
GRACE: With us is fiance...
CARTER: ... I wake up and she`ll be here.
GRACE: ... John Carter.
I want to go to Alexis Weed, our producer on the story. Alexis, I want to hear about the condition of her townhome and her dog.
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: (INAUDIBLE) we`re hearing that the townhome was as is, that it was in its usual condition, nothing out of the ordinary. John Carter tells us, though, that when he arrived at the home, he found that her dog was locked in the bedroom, that was abnormal, and that he could tell that the dog and Katelyn -- Katelyn had been missing for a long time, hadn`t been back, because the dog had gone to the bathroom in this room and was locked inside.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Weigh in, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, John sounds sincerely concerned about her. He doesn`t have that exaggerated dramatic quality to his voice that perpetrators have when they call 911. He says that she is not the kind of person who would deceive. He shows empathy towards her. Perps are very deprecating towards their victims, so he doesn`t fit the psychological profile of a homicidal boyfriend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Instead of celebrating Katelyn Markham`s birthday, family, friends and police are searching for the 22-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My fiancee is missing, I can`t find her anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: So far no one can explain who or what made Katelyn go missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a big mystery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I started to go by her house to see if she is OK and car was still there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Friends say that Katelyn is a responsible young woman. Student at the Art Institute of Cincinnati.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She would be at work right now without her car. Which is I am really freaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope it`s nothing bad at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You guys didn`t have an argument or anything?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all.
JOHN CARTER, FIANCE OF MISSING 22-YR-OLD BRIDE TO BE KATELYN MARKHAM: Katelyn is the love of my life, I`ve been with her for six years, we`ve been engaged for a year.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was she on medications or anything.
CARTER: Not at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want somebody who knows something to speak up. Somebody knows something, and we need to know that.
CARTER: I`m always here for you, and I`ll always be here for you. I`ll be waiting for you at any time, any day, all day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fairfield 911, where`s your emergency?
CATER: Hi. My name is John Carter, I`m calling. I`m not you`re not supposed to report a missing person -
(END VIDEO TAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: Welcome back. We are live in the disappearance of Katelyn Markham. She just 22, set to graduate with an art degree in a couple weeks. This young bride to be had the whole world in front of her, when she goes missing from her own townhome, a townhome she share with her father. He was not there at the time.
And joining us, the last person to see her, her fiance John Carter.
We`re taking your calls. I want to go back quickly to Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst and author of deal breakers.
Bethany, a lot has been made of the fact that the fiance keeps referring to her in the past tense.
DOCTOR BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR, DEAL BREAKERS: Well, I think we have a very smart fiance and we have very smart public. You let the public know all the time, Nancy, that when someone goes missing the first 72 hours is incredibly critical and important. And sometimes when they go missing, it`s because there`s foul play.
This fiance is not stupid, he knows this. And his language is realistic and it reflects the reality of the situation. And John, you have nothing but my admiration for having come on this show. For being sincere in your attempts to find your fiance when you said nothing is more important than having her come back home, I truly believe you.
The dream that she was missing and there was no evidence and then you woke up for it. That kind of a dream is what we call remnants of the day. It means that it`s just a retelling of the nightmarish reality you`re living through. It`s hard to malinger and make up a dream like that. So, that, that`s my observation about the situation.
GRACE: You know Bethany I recall when my fiance was murdered. I would have similar yet dissimilar dreams over and over and over, and I would wake up and think he was still alive, and then reality would set in. And if the dream would have been so vivid for a few moments, you really wouldn`t know what was real and what wasn`t.
And when he`s describing that, that`s what triggered my interest as I recall dreams like that, and they are tortuous. They are cruel and tortuous. It`s a game to your mind plays on you. I guess it`s your psyche wanting to go back to the way things were before everything went horribly wrong.
Very quickly, unleash the lawyers, Peter Odom and Pilar Prinz, both joining us out of Atlanta.
Pilar, a lot of people have made the fact that the fiance has referred to her in the past tense a couple of times. It was the last one to see her. These are the one that received this text messages, a picture of a picture. Many people would find all of that were together suspicious.
PILAR PRINZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well Nancy, you might take that as suspicious just as if you look at it in little pieces. But here have a guy who came on your show, who passed a polygraph test, who`s voluntarily talking to police, voluntary talking to the media. Expressing from every part of him that he wants her to come home. So, we may be analyzing something, and like Doctor Bethany said, it may be that this poor fiance is recognizing the reality that this may be a very unfortunate fate for her.
GRACE: Peter, I find it very encouraging that he would even agree to take a polygraph.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s right, Nancy. And of course, you know how I feel about polygraphs I don`t think they`re reliable at all. But people`s reactions to a polygraph can tell you a lot. You readily agree to take one person to pass it.
GRACE: That`s a good point.
ODOM: He`s acting like someone who`s just caught up in a horrible situation. My heart goes out to him, frankly.
GRACE: Back to Alexis Weed. I want to talk about a couple obvious questions these are yes no question, Alexis. Number one was her pocketbook in the townhouse?
ALEXIS WEED, PRODUCER, NANCY GRACE SHOW: It was left behind, yes.
GRACE: Yes, no.
WEED: Yes.
GRACE: Number two were her keys in the condo?
WEED: The keys were there, yes.
GRACE: Number three was there any forced entry?
WEED: Not as far as we can tell.
GRACE: That`s a yes no. OK. What do you know about the home? Was anything taken out of the home? Yes, no.
WEED: No.
GRACE: Back to John carter, fiance of Katelyn Markham. John, you said the apartment looked exactly as it did before, right?
CARTER: Yes.
GRACE: What about her car? Anything missing out of her car?
CARTER: No.
GRACE: When you got there, was the front door locked or not?
CARTER: I actually panicked as soon as I saw her car in the drive way. So, I just immediately went for the key that she gave me. I immediately went for the key and unlocked the door without thinking to check. I wanted to see her there.
GRACE: You don`t know. And with that key, you can`t tell if the door was locked or unlocked when you insert it?
CARTER: Yes, because I mean I insert it and I immediately unlocked the door. I didn`t even -
GRACE: What is this business I heard that she may have had a stalker?
CARTER: There`s not really any stalker.
GRACE: OK. Then what do you mean by that?
CARTER: There`s a suspicious character, but he - the police have investigated him and you know it`s not like he focused on specifically Katelyn. He just, he has a little bit of a disturbing quality to him, and the police investigated him -
GRACE: So they questioned him.
Out to the lines, Kirsten in Ohio. Hi dear, what`s your question?
KIERSTEN, CALLER, OHIO: You just asked your question that too was exactly what I about to ask because there rumors about a stalker.
GRACE: Yes, I want to get back into that a little bit, Alexis. Are we sure this guy has been questioned? And who is he?
WEED: It`s a local face book page from a local news site where people claiming to be her friends are making postings saying, yes, she had a stalker and cops are withholding information that should otherwise be out there.
GRACE: Out to Drew in Ohio. Hi Drew, what`s your question?
DREW, CALLER, OHIO: Hi. I was wondering about the documents that John burned for Katelyn supposedly?
GRACE: Yes. What about them?
DREW: What are they? Why did he -
GRACE: Well, from what he`s telling us, they are old cancelled checks and bills she had from years ago. My immediate question, have you ever heard of a shredder or just tear it up? Why the need to burn them, John?
CARTER: She actually asked me to burn them. Because she didn`t want to tear them up, she had a lot. And we don`t own a paper shredder, so she just wanted me to burn them so nobody could go through her trash and find all that stuff.
GRACE: OK. To Doctor Marty Macary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. Doctor Marty, thank you for being with us. Police are saying no evidence of foul play in the town house. But what type of trace evidence should they look for?
DOCTOR MARTY MACARY M.D., PHYSICIAN, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, typically the forensic medical evidence the police try to recover are nail fragments, hairs. Often times can be distinguished as a hair that was pulled from the root versus a hair that fell off. Any body fluids of any kind and stains. Those are all things that can be examined in the lab.
GRACE: To John Carter, the fiance. Do you know if cops went through the townhome with luminal? And where was her father at the time she disappeared?
CARTER: I know that the cops went through her apartment. But her dad was with me right before I called the police, and he was there the whole time.
GRACE: No, I mean that night when she went missing, where was the father?
CARTER: His girlfriend`s house.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The husband had reported his wife, the suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 31-year-old mom -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And 7-month-old son missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say she allegedly throws her infant boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a call about a baby who had fallen off the side of the parking structure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the railing on the parking deck is about 3 feet high.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The one witness that was walking by did say that he was just -- he was falling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the fourth level of a parking garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Falling of the parking structure on to the pavement below.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 7-month-old toddler cops say was thrown off the fourth floor of a parking deck by his own mother has died.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRACE: And you left something out. After the baby, the 7-month-old baby boy was thrown over the rail of the parking garage from the fourth floor up. Mommy has the wherewithal to validate her parking. Matt Zarrell, what happened?
MATT ZARELL, PRODUCER, NANCY GRACE SHOW: Nancy, police got a call from multiple people, including a doctor seeing a 7-month-old baby falling from the top of the parking deck next to the children`s hospital in southern California. Police soon learn that mom of three allegedly tossed the baby over the parking lot down to the concrete below. There was even a blood spot seen on the floor. Unfortunately, the baby has since passed away. And mom is now charged with murder, Nancy.
GRACE: To Denise Salazar, writer with the orange county register. Denise, thank you for being with us. What more can you tell me?
DENISE SALAZAR, WRITER, ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER (via telephone): Thanks for having us.
She`s a 31-year-old mother from Mahabra here in California. Was expected to appear in court today to be charged on murder. And she was actually not in court this morning because she`s being held on a 24-hour suicide watch at orange county jail.
GRACE: Joining us is Doctor Marty Macary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. The infant thrown from the fourth level of a parking garage initially, the little child survived, Doctor Marty. And you`re seeing some photos of him with a little helmet. That helmet he was wearing for a birth disability he had. But that helmet would have been taken off. That was just to help him briefly for a period of time. It`s not uncommon at all, is it Doctor Marty?
MACARY: No, not at all. The helmet was for what may have been (Inaudible), a condition where some of the muscle doesn`t form completely and the kids don`t have as much flexibility in their neck. Now, kids usually can survive a fall better than adults, they`re more flexible. There`s more cartilage in their system. But at that height, it`s the head trauma that makes it totally non-survivable.
GRACE: I`m just sick. I`m sick about this. A 7-month-old baby boy hurled off the side of a four story parking garage to the baby`s death. Who would target a little 7-month-old baby boy? Tonight we know, its mommy.
Joining me now, a special guest, Tony Rackauckas, orange county district attorney. Tony, thank you for being with us again tonight.
Tony, what`s the likelihood or the possibility this would qualify as a death penalty case?
TONY RACKAUCKAS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ORANGE COUNTY: Well, we don`t have any special circumstance allegation here. So there`s really no chance that it would be a death penalty.
GRACE: What about heinous?
RACKAUCKAS: Well, that`s not a special circumstance.
GRACE: What are your special circumstances Mister Rackauckas?
RACKAUCKAS: We have a list of them. You know various kinds of special circumstances that are after first degree murder, for example. Murder during -
GRACE: Murder for hire?
RACKAUCKAS: Murder for hire, murder lying in wait. There`s a list, but this does not fit into any special circumstances.
GRACE: So, none of the aggravating circumstances would go toward a child?
RACKAUCKAS: I think what we have here is a premeditated and deliberate murder as far as we can tell.
GRACE: I understand that she, the mother, Sonia is on suicide watch right now, what does that mean?
RACKAUCKAS: Well, it means pretty much what it says, I guess. That they`re keeping an eye on her to - somebody thinks there`s a danger that she might commit suicide. So they`re keeping a close eye on her to make sure that doesn`t happen.
GRACE: We`re taking your calls.
Out to Peter Odom and Pilar Prinz, the defense attorneys tonight.
Peter Odom, she stops to validate her parking ticket after she throws her son to his death. Thoughts?
ODOM: Nancy, there`s a well documented history of postpartum depression here. The husband has actually told us she had been in a psychiatric appointment. And just previously and that she was suffering from severe postpartum depression. This is a horrible act. And I think that the district attorney will at some point will look at whether this woman was suffering from a severe mental illness, and maybe whether that was -
GRACE: A severe mental illness? Was there any suggestion Matt Zarell, that there was mental illness?
ZARELL: Nancy, the father has suggested that the mom was hospitalized in June, because she doesn`t want the son anymore. But prosecutors argue, that how can it be postpartum if she had the wherewithal to validate her parking afterwards. And that she was arrested four hours later back at the scene of the crime. Prosecutors say she went back to the crime scene to make sure that she got away with it.
GRACE: What do you mean she went back to the scene? Denise Salazar, to make sure she get away with it, what do you mean?
SALAZAR: Well, the witnesses probably heard about a baby falling about 6:20 p.m. on Monday, and about 10:50 p.m. she was spotted by a patrol officer. She was spotted driving past the hospital. And the officers stopped her and arrested her and they found an empty child seat in the vehicle.
GRACE: What about that Pilar?
PRINZ: I suspect that we`re going to see a defense here of not guilty by reason of insanity. And I agree with Peter Odom, that they`re going to be looking at postpartum. Before anybody starts judging this woman. And I want to make clear I`m not condoning the act if she did that. Before anyone starts judging this woman, she needs a full psychiatric evaluation to find out what was going on in her mind at the time this happened. This is horrible, but mothers who don`t have something wrong with them do not throw their children off parking garages.
GRACE: Really? Really? What about Susan Smith? There was nothing wrong with her except she wanted to be with her boyfriend. What was that, three children? She pushed them buckled into their car seats into the water.
PRINZ: Yes, Nancy. And what about Andrea Yates who was found the second time, she was trialed not guilty by reason of insanity -
GRACE: Put her up.
PRINZ: Nancy, if they find -
GRACE: Yes, Pilar, wait, wait, wait. I heard you say, the second time with Andrea Yates. Pilar, let`s thinks. What happened in the first trial?
PRINZ: She was convicted, she was retried.
GRACE: Right.
PRINZ: And found guilty by reason of insanity.
GRACE: You know what she`s doing right now? She`s absolutely perfectly sane behind bars. She probably has her own Web site. I don`t know - I`m going to ask you, Liz, one last time to put Pilar up so I can see her.
Pilar, why is it every time a mother commits murder that you immediately say insanity, insanity? There are many, many more mothers that commit murder that are not insane than those that are deemed insane.
So for you and Peter Odom to just fall back like you`re falling on your sofa at home, insanity. It doesn`t work every time Doctor Bethany. Why?
MARSHALL: Ongoing homicidal intent towards this child. My understanding is she wasn`t allowed to be alone with the child alone. She waited until the husband was in the shower to run out the door with him. That`s why she frantically called 911 like Andrea Yates who waited until Rusty Yates was gone to kill the child and then said a demon made me do it.
You can have mental illness but still be homicidal. They`re two distinct, separate things that sometimes are intertwined but are separate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GRACE: Welcome back. A 7-month-old baby boy thrown to his death from a four deck parking garage. Who would target a 7-month-old child for death? Tonight we know. His mommy.
I want to go to special guest orange county district attorney Tony Rickauckas. Tony, is there any indication of insanity?
RACKAUCKAS: No. I certainly don`t see any at this point. Our evidence indicates she didn`t want this baby. She said so on a number of occasions. And she intended to get rid of the baby and she chose to throw the baby off this ledge. That`s how she got rid of the 7-month-old baby.
GRACE: Tony, I tell you, I admire you. Because no matter how many times you see these cases, still hard for a prosecutor to confront the facts, give them to a jury. It`s heart breaking.
To the callers. Diane in Florida. Hi Diane, what`s your question?
DIANE, CALLER, FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. Are there any other children in the home?
GRACE: There absolutely are. Matt Zarrell, there are a couple of other children, right?
ZARELL: Yes. There are two older daughters, Nancy. The father says he was actually taking a shower that afternoon. The girls were outside. And that`s when mom took off with the baby. And he called 911. Cops were able to link her based on surveillance video of the parking deck of her car leaving the deck after the baby was thrown.
GRACE: And again, she had the wherewithal to validate her parking ticket. There goes your insanity defense.
Let`s stop and remember Army Captain Shane Adcock, 27, Mechanicsville, Virginia. Killed Iraq. On a second tour, also served Afghanistan, awarded two bronze stars, Purple Heart on the defense service medal. Buried at Arlington.
Loved the outdoors, surfing, hiking, camping. His dog, Samson. Never met a stranger and can make anybody laugh. Philosophy, live life with no regrets. Leaves behind parents Merith and Vera, grandparents John and Rose, Sister Shannon, Widow Jennifer.
Shane Adcock. American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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