Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Fourth Infant`s Body Found in Mississippi River
Aired September 08, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Minnesota. A family boat ride turns deadly when the family spots a plastic bag floating downstream on the Mississippi. Inside, a tiny infant girl just days old, only seven pounds, dumped like trash.
In a bizarre twist, we investigate to learn this is the fourth baby`s body found floating on the same stretch of river -- three girls, one baby boy. At this hour, autopsy under way on baby number four to determine cause of death. Tonight, what callous killer is dumping newborn bodies to sink to the bottom of the Mississippi?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one wants to find an infant ever dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A boat ride on the Mississippi River. The baby girl was found six miles south of Winona. The family happened upon something that seemed out of place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Discovered that it was a small infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She weighed 7 pounds, was born within the past few days, and her body had been in the water about two days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s really hard to believe that someone would throw them in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The infant is the fourth baby to be found dead in southeastern Minnesota since 1999.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have another baby found when there`s no -- to me, there`s no reason for it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The four-year (ph) pattern is disturbing. The previous cases have never been solved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, it`s season 13, "Dancing With the Stars." Tonight, my dancing partner, Irishman Tristan MacManus and last year`s big winner, Hines Ward, taking your calls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You may have heard the exciting news about Nancy Grace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s a former prosecutor turned crime commentator, courtroom queen, Nancy Grace!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: HLN`s very own Nancy Grace was lacing up her dancing shoes, a run for the big "Dancing With the Stars" trophy.
GRACE: I`m not the youngest, the thinnest, the prettiest (INAUDIBLE) dancers. But I got a lot of heart.
Been in the studio already five hours. My feet are killing me! Proof -- this is a Latin heel, this is a ballroom. Observe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news tonight. There`s something in my...
GRACE: This is my "Dancing With the Stars" partner, Tristan.
TRISTAN MACMANUS, "DANCING WITH THE STARS": My name`s Tristan MacManus, and I`m hoping to bring a little bit of Irish luck to the dance troop.
GRACE: Any and all money I make on "Dancing With the Stars" goes straight to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re the CNNer to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you`re a perfect choice for the show. You are a fearless woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live, Minnesota. A family boat ride turns deadly when the family spots a plastic bag floating downstream on the Mississippi. Inside that bag, a tiny infant girl just days old, the little thing only seven pounds, dumped like trash. We investigate to learn this is the fourth baby`s body found floating on the same stretch of river.
Tonight, what callous killer is dumping newborns` bodies to sink to the bottom of the Mississippi?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn baby girl has just been discovered in the Mississippi River, and now authorities are investigating to see if this baby is linked to three other babies also found in the same river in the same area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A family out for a boat ride on the Mississippi River happened upon something that seemed out of place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a small infant. I wonder who could do that to a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t believe it. I really (INAUDIBLE) that anybody would do something like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Disbelief. (INAUDIBLE) said the idea the baby was found near the town they call home. Even more (INAUDIBLE) body found was only a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it`s sad, sad as can be. I`m a father of three.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She weighed seven pounds, was born within the past few days, and her body had been in the water about two days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Find an infant -- no one wants to find an infant ever dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. What callous killer is dumping babies` bodies along the same stretch of the Mississippi, leaving them to float to the bottom of a muddy river?
Straight out to Sarah Elmquist, crime and government reporter with "The Winona Post." Sarah, four bodies, and it`s my understanding that at least two of the bodies are related via DNA. We know it`s the same mother.
SARAH ELMQUIST, "WINONA POST" (via telephone): Well, I`m not certain about that, but Nancy, what we do know here is we have a very disturbing pattern that has developed. Whether or not these cases are related, we certainly have a tragedy at hand. The community here is just shocked and saddened as this story continues to unfold.
GRACE: Straight out to John Brewer,staff, writer with "The Pioneer Press." DNA has positively linked two of the children`s bodies together. I`m waiting to find out about the other two bodies, but this suggests to me that one killer may be responsible for all four of the babies` bodies.
John Brewer, explain to me how this last body was found floating on the Mississippi.
JOHN BREWER, "PIONEER PRESS" (via telephone): Well, it sounds like over Labor Day, there was a family boating on the river south of Winona and saw something out in the water, a plastic bag. They turned the boat around, picked the bag up, opened it up and found this body inside, a little baby girl, seven pounds, apparently a newborn.
And it`s sort of the same pattern as three earlier bodies that were found 60 miles to the north starting in 1999, a newborn -- two newborn girls and a little newborn boy. None of those were wrapped in plastic. One was wrapped in a towel. Bit they were all found dead floating in the river just a little bit after they were born.
GRACE: Apparently, they have been wrapped, each one of them, one wrapped in plastic, one wrapped in a towel, one found with a towel nearby, obviously having been wrapped in the towel.
Joining me right now is a special guest, Sheriff David Brand with the Winona County sheriff`s office. Sheriff, thank you for being with us tonight.
SHERIFF DAVID BRAND, WINONA COUNTY, MN (via telephone): You bet, Nancy. Thanks for calling us on this matter.
GRACE: You know, it`s extremely disturbing. These are the most helpless members of our society, now found face down in the river. What have you been able to learn specifically from the plastic wrapping around one of the children? That`s very possible to get fingerprints from that. Even if that plastic has been in water, you can still get a print off plastic.
BRAND: Yes, we`re working with the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, along with four of my detectives to, hopefully, put closure on this case. We`ve been interviewing people for the last two days, and we`ve had a lot of people calling in and giving us some information, but nothing -- no solid leads.
GRACE: You know, that`s interesting, Sheriff Brand, that you`re saying people are calling in with leads. What would that be, for instance, reported (ph) women that were pregnant and then, suddenly, they`re not pregnant anymore and they don`t have a baby?
BRAND: Yes. Well, we`ve been checking out people that have been pregnant and if they had their baby or they`re still pregnant or not. Those are some of the things that we`re checking out with the hospitals. And we`ve checked with the motels to see if anybody stayed over the weekend that was pregnant. We`re checking every lead that we can, and we`re posting our Crimestoppers number and our regular number...
GRACE: Right.
BRAND: ... that if anybody has any information to call us.
GRACE: With us, Sheriff David Brand out of Winona County. Right now, our producer on the story, Matt Zarrell. Matt, it`s my understanding that the umbilical cord was also attached to at least one of the babies, if not two?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, Nancy, you`re correct. It was attached to two of the babies. In fact, the third (SIC) one, we have the plastic bag, which is the latest baby that was found on Monday. And Nancy, they`re looking for a link. They`ve done DNA testing on a number of suspects. At least nine women have come forward to give DNA tests. They have not found the mothers yet. They are still searching for them at this time. But they do believe that the first two may have been murdered. We`re still working on that right now.
GRACE: OK, back it up. Back it up. Matt Zarrell, you just said the third one, the latest one -- there`s four.
ZARRELL: Yes, correct.
GRACE: There`s four babies. So the latest one is the fourth baby. There have been three baby girls, one baby boy. Now, give me the order. Give me the succession, Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: OK. November 4th, 1999, a newborn baby girl found in Red Wing Marine (ph), Minnesota, umbilical cord still attached, wrapped in a towel. December 7, 2003, body floating along the edge of a beach, umbilical cord also attached, blue towel found nearby. Newborn baby girl found March 26th, 2007, floating in the marina outside a resort and casino. The cops believe that the baby may have been in the water for as long as six months. And then, Nancy, you have the one that was found Monday by two fishermen boating near Winona, Minnesota, and that baby weighed seven pounds, found floating in a plastic bag.
GRACE: And Matt, you know, seven pounds is -- that`s a pretty good weight for a little baby. How old was the baby?
ZARRELL: They believe the baby was only a couple days old. They also believe that the first two from 1999 and 2003, they are sure those babies were born alive.
GRACE: You know, another thing, Matt Zarrell. I know that two of the babies are linked genetically to the same mother. I know that they, we believe, are Caucasian, that one of the other babies is an American Indian. But that doesn`t necessarily mean it`s not the same mother. The father could have been an American Indian. So I`m not ruling out that all of these babies are from the same mother, Matt Zarrell.
ZARRELL: Well, the problem is, though, Nancy, is that cops are saying the DNA proves that the baby from 1999 and the baby from 2003 are not...
GRACE: OK.
ZARRELL: ... are related but not related to the baby from 2007.
GRACE: Oh, I see. So `99 and `2003 related, but not in `07.
We are taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of D.C., death penalty-qualified Eleanor Odom, out of Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, also out of Atlanta, defense attorney Peter Odom. Weigh in, Eleanor.
ELEANOR ODOM, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOC.: Well, you know, Nancy, this is murder, plain and simple. If you can tell that the babies were born alive and then discarded, then that is a murder case. You`ve got to find the person who did this. Also, what`s interesting to me -- I`ve been to Winona, Minnesota, this summer, in fact. It`s kind of a remote area, not a whole lot of people around. So it would be very easy to get rid of a body in that area.
GRACE: But what about the fact, Peter Odom, that the casinos are there? There`s a lot of people visiting, transients that are attracted to those casinos. It doesn`t have to be a local person.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t, Nancy. And of course, that`s the problem. I`m interested that the prosecutors...
GRACE: Wait! You think that`s the problem?
PETER ODOM: That`s going to be the...
GRACE: You think the problem is it`s not a local...
PETER ODOM: That`s going to be one of the problems...
GRACE: No! No, no! No, no!
PETER ODOM: Obviously, Nancy...
GRACE: Peter, the problem is there`s four dead babies, Peter!
PETER ODOM: The problem in identifying the perpetrator, obviously, is what I`m saying, Nancy. And I`m interested that the prosecutor is so quick to say that this is definitely murder. They`re doing an autopsy...
GRACE: Whoa!
PETER ODOM: ... to figure out how this...
GRACE: Whoa!
PETER ODOM: ... baby died. You can`t jump to...
GRACE: Whoa!
PETER ODOM: ... any conclusions yet.
GRACE: So you`re telling me four babies died by natural causes...
PETER ODOM: I`m telling...
GRACE: ... and instead of calling 911, they dump the body in a bread sack in the Mississippi? I don`t think it`s going to fly, Odom!
PETER ODOM: Well, let`s find out what the autopsy says before we go jumping to conclusions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff David Brand said the baby girl was found six miles south of Winona.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have another baby found when there`s no -- to me, there`s reason for it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That these children deserve so much more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess if you`ve never held a baby that`s died...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A family out for a boat ride on the Mississippi River happened upon something that seemed out of place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were curious, so they turned around.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The body found was only a baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A newborn baby girl has just been discovered in the Mississippi River, and now authorities are investigating to see if this baby is linked to three other babies also found in the same river in the same area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Four babies` bodies, three baby girls, one baby boy, all found floating along the same stretch of the Mississippi River. We just learned about one, and after investigating, we find out that there are three more, four dead infants, typically wrapped, one in plastic, one in a towel, one with a towel nearby. And I`m waiting to find out about the fourth. The MO is absolutely the same, a fingerprint crime. This means a serial killer.
We are taking your calls, but I think I heard -- Peter Odom, was that you whining something at the end of last segment, something about how it could be an accidental death?
PETER ODOM: Well, what I was saying, Nancy, was that the autopsy is supposed to figure out how this baby died. You know, nobody except, I guess, the prosecutors on your show, are going to jump to all these conclusions. Let`s just see what the autopsy says. If it turns out that the baby was killed purposely, so be it, but let`s at least see what the science has to say.
GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers," how can four dead infants wrapped in plastic and towels indicate natural- cause death? We know that they had been alive at least two to three days. Or is that just another fantastical theory by a defense lawyer?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: You know, if it was natural causes, the mother would have called 911, right? Look, the profile of the woman who did this is a woman who`s maliciously and cruelly ignoring the fact that she`s pregnant, has no idea about her reproductive rights, when the baby is born, is not even bonded to the baby because she`s been contemplating on how to get rid of it for about nine months, is outside the medical system, probably has other children in the household who probably are malnourished and being subjected to some kind of neglect.
And you know what, Nancy? The reason that she wraps them in a towel or (INAUDIBLE) is not because she cares about them, it`s like throwing a used Kleenex in the trash can before you put it in the dumpster.
GRACE: John Brewer, staff writer with "The Pioneer Press" -- John, what do we know about the origin of the towels?
BREWER: At this point, they haven`t released much information on the origin of the towels. And the folks that run the casino is a local tribe. They were emphatic when the baby was found in their casino harbor that it wasn`t one of their children. But we don`t know at this point, or it hasn`t been released what sort of towels they were, if they were from the Treasure Island Casino or not.
GRACE: Well, how about the plastic? Do we know what it was?
BREWER: We don`t know at this point what the plastic -- the general public doesn`t know at this point. Authorities likely know. They have it and are looking at it. And what`s interesting to me is that unlike the three previous children, this one was actually sort of wrapped in plastic and secured. And you had mentioned that seems like it would contain more information than a baby that was just tossed nilly-willy (SIC) into the Mississippi.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist joining me out of Denver. How can you tell whether the baby lived, whether it was stillborn?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The doctor`s going to check for food in the stomach. Live babies eat food. Dead babies don`t. They`re also going to check for air in the lungs. Live babies breathe, dead babies don`t.
GRACE: To Sheriff David Brand. I`ve got him back. Sheriff, again, thanks for being with us. What did the towels reveal? Were they casino towels or towels from a home?
BRAND: We didn`t -- there weren`t any towels that we had involved with this baby. And the only thing I can say right now, the baby was in a plastic bag, and I can`t release the other information, what was in the bag at this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are investigating the death of a newborn baby found in the Mississippi River to see if it`s connected to the deaths of three other babies found in the same section of the river. The newborn, who weighed just seven pounds, was located in a plastic bag by boaters fishing in the river.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a small infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says she weighed seven pounds, was born within the past few days, and her body had been in the water about two days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To find an infant -- no one wants to find an infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The infant is the fourth baby to be found dead in southeastern Minnesota since 1999.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeannie (ph) and her husband, Don (ph), organized funeral services for the other babies and gave them names.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s really hard to believe that someone would throw them in the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Four infants found dead. We investigate. It goes back several years. Four infants, three baby girls, one baby boy found along the same stretch of the Mississippi River. We are live and taking your calls.
Out to Liz in Oklahoma. Hi, Liz. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you, first of all, for all you do day after day. And it`s great to see you do "Dancing With the Stars" and letting your hair down a little bit.
GRACE: Well, we`ll see about that! Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you got our vote, Nancy. My question is this. When my son and daughter were born, they took fingerprints and little footprints of them at the hospital. And assuming these babies were born in a hospital, can`t they compare fingerprints that are on the plastic (ph) or are on the towel to hospitals throughout the United States, and compare fingerprints on the plastic to what would be fingerprints in the hospital?
GRACE: You`re right. To Steve Kardian, former police detective joining us out of Hawthorne (ph), New York. Steve, children are typically -- they take their footprint in the hospital, do they not? I don`t know if they get their fingerprints taken. And also in APHIS (ph), the national fingerprint data bank -- I don`t know if -- I don`t believe infants` footprints are in there. So I don`t know that it`s even possible to compare the infant`s footprint to any existing data bank.
STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Nancy, if they had a possible child that they were looking at, they might be able to make a comparison on the footprints. But I think they`re going to be looking for a crime scene where the baby was born. This was probably -- she was probably kept very quiet about the pregnancy, and she likely gave birth not in a hospital setting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The newborn, who cops say was found born alive, was found inside a plastic bag by two fisherman boating in the river. While an autopsy is being done, investigators are looking for any connection to the discoveries of newborns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one wants to find an infant ever dead.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A boat ride on the Mississippi River, the baby girl was found six miles south of Winona. The family happened upon something that seemed out of place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Discovered that it was a small infant.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She weighed seven pounds, was born in the past few days and her body had been in the water about two days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s hard to believe that someone would throw them in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The infant is the fourth baby to be found dead in southeastern Minnesota since 1999.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To have another baby found when there`s no -- to me, there`s no reason for it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The four-year pattern is disturbing. The previous cases have never been solved.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, disturbing is putting it very lightly. The bodies of four infants, just two to three days old, have now been found floating down the Mississippi River. What callous killer has dumped infants to float to the bottom, to sink to the bottom of the Mississippi?
We are taking your calls.
Dr. Bethany Marshall, you suggested it is a mother. What about the father?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, maybe it`s a mother working in concert with the father. But I can tell you, Nancy, if a woman is really bonded with her child, no man is going to interfere, no man is going to make her kill that baby and throw it in the river. So on some level the dad might be involved, but it`s the mother who primarily has homicidal intent towards the child.
GRACE: Bethany, I agree. But I`m saying that there may be a co- conspirator, there may be a codefendant involved here. I`m not letting daddy off the hook that easily.
MARSHALL: Well, yes.
GRACE: And --
MARSHALL: I mean --
GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell.
MARSHALL: You`re right because --
GRACE: Go ahead, Bethany.
MARSHALL: Well, a lot of times a mother and a father who are abusive become paranoid towards the child or the unborn baby and they conspire in a paranoid way, like the dad may have thought that baby is going to interfere with the mother`s love, start to hatefully talk about the baby, brainwashes the mother, the mother joins in. But actually I wouldn`t even say brainwashing.
GRACE: Wait. Wait, wait, wait.
MARSHALL: I would say the mother --
GRACE: Brainwashes the mother? If she`s old enough to give birth, I mean she`s going to let some man brainwash her about her own baby?
MARSHALL: Right.
GRACE: I`m not -- no. I`m not going with the whole Stockholm syndrome here, OK? No.
MARSHALL: You`re absolutely correct. He hopes into something that she already felt about this child. You`re absolutely correct.
GRACE: To Renee Rockwell, defense attorney out of Atlanta. Weigh in, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, a couple of things, Nancy. First of all, you`re talking about four babies, there could be more. Isn`t it maybe time for a national DNA database so that we could check this?
The beautiful thing about an umbilical cord, Nancy, and a baby in plastic, there`s a chance that you can get the mother`s blood right now.
GRACE: Well, I agree with that. But you`re the defense attorney. Obviously, mommy`s involved, go ahead, hit me with the defense.
ROCKWELL: OK. I see some mental health issues here. Perhaps some cult issues.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Some what? Did you say cult?
ROCKWELL: I said cult.
GRACE: C-U-L-T? As in cult?
ROCKWELL: That`s right. And if you think --
GRACE: Please explain that scenario to me where a cult is involved in murder?
ROCKWELL: Well, what I`m saying is you may have somebody --
GRACE: Think fast.
ROCKWELL: -- that`s not thinking on their own, that are just discarding these babies. And I`m not so sure that we need to just limit it at four babies.
GRACE: No, no, please. Whoa, put her up. Put her up, Liz.
Don`t say discarding like they`re just paper cups, all right? They`re babies. Don`t say they`re discarding them like they`re trash? All right?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, when you`re dealing with people that are not using their own minds, but a cult mentality, that`s not a baby to them. That`s just a piece of property, a piece of trash. So I`m not saying these people need to be Sunday schoolteachers.
GRACE: OK, you know, how do you --
ROCKWELL: I`m saying that you`re not dealing with the normal people that live next door to you that are having children. These babies could all be related, and think of the 12 years that has passed since this first baby --
GRACE: Dr. Bethany, see, that`s the problem right there, Bethany, is that everyone wants to twist and turn and find a way to excuse mommy for murder. Now they`ve got, out of nowhere, a cult defense. It`s absolutely -- there`s not one shred of evidence to support anything except cold blooded murder of a helpless infant.
I remember the first time I tried to bathe Lucy, my daughter. She couldn`t even hold her head up. So defenseless, yet the killer of these children is willing to wrap them in a towel, wrap them in plastic and let them float to the bottom of the Mississippi. And now somebody wants to blame it on a cult?
MARSHALL: But you know what? Renee has a point in that a lot of times these women are from rigid --
GRACE: You`re going to pile on.
MARSHALL: OK. Rigid, authoritarian families where they are not aware of their sexuality, their reproductive rights. They get --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Are you actually bringing sex into this? They`re not aware of their sexuality? What does that have to do with killing the baby?
MARSHALL: They`re not aware of their bodies, they`re uterus, their sexuality. They don`t use prophylaxis like condoms. If they were aware of that --
GRACE: So are you suggesting murder is alternative to birth control?
MARSHALL: -- they would use birth control. No, no, no --
GRACE: OK, you know, Bethany --
MARSHALL: I`m saying that if they were aware what was going to happen --
GRACE: Let me help -- I want to help you.
MARSHALL: -- they would use a condom.
GRACE: I want to help you, Bethany.
MARSHALL: OK, help me.
GRACE: I`m going to get you back in the car, and get you back in the middle of the road. All right? We`re not talking about condoms or birth control pills or even abortion. This is murder. These children were born alive, OK? And I`m not talking about abortion, all right? I`m talking about murder under the criminal code.
To Sheriff David Brand -- Sheriff, I want to go back to you about the towel issue. Now you stated that no towel was involved in the case that you are dealing with. But I assume that neighboring counties are working together and you`re looking at all the children`s deaths, including the ones where one baby was wrapped in a towel, and another a towel was found nearby.
SHERIFF DAVID BRAND, WYNONA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, we are, Nancy. Today we had a combined effort with Wisconsin and authorities on our side to sit down and start piecing things together and see what we could do yet and what we should be doing to make sure we`re all on the same page.
And also to look at if the four would be connected somehow. And right now we don`t see that, but we have an open option on it.
GRACE: Well, I know that two of them are connected through DNA. The other two remain a mystery to me.
To Dr. Michael Arnall, I want to talk to you, Doctor, about the -- you`ve done hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of autopsies, and typically when there is an accidental death of a child, there`s SIDS, there`s a million ways a child can die at that young age. Typically don`t parents call 911 when there`s an accidental death?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, they do. And I agree with you, the fact that 911 was not called leads me away from the possibility that this is either a natural or an accident.
GRACE: The tip line, 507-457-6530. Four infants now dead floating in the Mississippi River.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops are now searching for any link to the babies found in the Mississippi River in four-year intervals since 1999, including one baby who was found in the marina of a resort and casino.
Cops have conducted DNA test on multiple suspects but are still searching for the people responsible for this horrible discovery.
Police are investigating the death of a newborn baby found in the Mississippi River to see if it`s connected to the deaths of three other babies found in the same section of the river. The newborn who weighed just seven pounds was located in a plastic bag by boaters fishing in the river.
Cops are now searching for any link to the babies found in the Mississippi River in four-year intervals since 1999 including one baby who was found in the marina of a resort and casino.
Cops have conducted DNA tests on multiple suspects but are still searching for the people responsible for this horrible discovery.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BERGERON, "DANCING WITH THE STARS" HOST: Nancy Grace.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: She is the star they most want to see dance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is on the new season of "Dancing with the Stars".
A.J. HAMMER, HLN ANCHOR: Fearless woman. We know that in the courtroom, on your show, you are not afraid of anyone. But you did admit to one fear.
GRACE: I don`t know anything about dancing. I just hope that I don`t fall because they didn`t teach dancing in law school.
This is my "Dancing with the Stars" partner Tristan.
TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY`S "DANCING WITH THE STARS" PARTNER: My name is Tristan MacManus, and I`m hoping to bring in a little bit of Irish look to the dance troop this season.
GRACE: You know this one just keeps going like a robot, so I`m trying to keep up. I`m not the youngest, the thinnest, the prettiest or the best dancer, but I got a lot of heart, and that`s got to count for something, right?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight our special guest is my Irish partner Tristan McManus. Also with us is "Dancing with the Stars" winner Hines Ward, well known as the best blocking wide receiver in NFL history.
But first to you, Tristan McManus, thanks a lot for being with us. I understand you`ve come up with a team name. And what would that be?
MACMANUS: Yes, the team name we`ve come up with is MacGrace.
GRACE: And that stands for?
MACMANUS: So obviously MacManus -- well, it`s for MacManus and it`s for Nancy Grace but I`ve been made aware that it`s also your father`s name.
GRACE: And I`m -- yes, it is, MacGrace. But I`m interested in why you were so presumptuous to put MacManus before Grace. That`s just like jumps out of me right at the beginning. But hold on, hold on.
Tristan, how long have you been dancing?
MACMANUS: I`ve been dancing for about 20 years now.
GRACE: And you started --
MACMANUS: Back to your question. Back to you question, the reason my name came before yours is because I`m in charge this time, not you.
GRACE: Oh, yes, you keep saying that.
MACMANUS: That`s why -- that`s why Mac goes first, then Grace.
GRACE: In the words of Shakespeare -- as in William -- me thinks thou doth protest too much. You`re always telling me who`s the boss.
With me right now, Hines Ward, "Dancing with the Stars" season 12 winner, Pittsburgh Steelers` all-time leading wide receiver, the MVP Super Bowl 40.
Hines, thank you for being with us. We`re showing pictures of you right now in a very skimpy vest. Oh dear. I don`t really think of you in that way, Hines?
HINES WARD, "DANCING WITH THE STARS" WINNER: I don`t think of myself that way either.
GRACE: And you`ve got it unzipped, too. Nasty, nasty boy. Give me your thoughts on dancing with the stars, Hines. How did you go all the way to the mirror ball trophy?
WARD: You know what, I had a great partner. You know all the professional dancers are great. And you`re in good hands with Tristan. I got a chance to meet him last year. I mean last season when I was doing the show, he`s a phenomenal guy. But Kim Johnson, she designed my costume, she choreographed the whole routine. So, you know, I put all my trust in her. And she led me all the way to that mirror ball trophy. So I really owed Kim for everything she`s done.
GRACE: Hey, Hines --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Everyone, with us is Hines Ward and he`s taking your calls. Also with me, "Dancing with the Stars" season 13 newcomer Tristan MacManus. Also taking your calls.
To Kate in Illinois, hi, Kate, what`s your question?
KATE, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy, I just love you and your show. I want to be just like you when I get older.
I was just wondering what your, like, biggest goal is to accomplish this season on "Dancing with the Stars"?
GRACE: Well, you know what, Kate, that`s easy, because every penny that I get from "Dancing with the Stars" is going to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. And I hope to write them a big fat whopping check at the end of this competition, and aiding me in that is Tristan MacManus.
Hey, Liz, let`s see shots of Tristan as a little boy.
So, Tristan, when did you realized -- what`s that? What`s that? Who`s crawling into the washing machine?
MACMANUS: Yes, what`s going on here now?
GRACE: When did you -- and you`re sitting on top of a Michael Jackson seat there. There you are styling -- who cut your hair?
MACMANUS: That was me. I`d done that one.
GRACE: And there you are with your sister.
MACMANUS: That`s me sister. That`s me sister, Kelly. Yes.
GRACE: Now -- there you are in one of your very first competitions. So when did you first realize you wanted to be a dancer?
MACMANUS: It`s actually a funny one to be honest with you. I was brought along to dancing when I was about 9. Me sister was doing it. And then I think initially I was just brought along to keep me out of trouble to be honest. And then -- it`s funny, because it`s one of those things I never really thought that I wanted to be. You know? I danced for a few years and then I ended up giving up dancing then, because I didn`t particularly enjoy it any more.
And all those pictures there, they`re my football years. I used to play football. And I gave up dancing to play football --
GRACE: You mean soccer, right?
MACMANUS: It`s football where I come from.
GRACE: Where you pick around --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: A white round ball with black triangles on it? Yes, that`s soccer.
MACMANUS: Yes, that`s football. That`s football. Anyway, I was playing that -- and I was playing with my mates and I just -- I realized I wasn`t as good as they were at that. So I went back to where I thought I was good at the time, and that turned out to be dancing, and lucky enough, a bit of hard work, and it`s led me here to you.
GRACE: No, I`m the lucky one. From what I`ve seen on the practice.
MACMANUS: I don`t know about that one, though.
GRACE: People, we`ve been practicing five hours a day. My feet have currently got five bandages on them. And right now I`m being joined not only by Hines Ward, "Dancing with the Stars" season 12 winner, the MVP in Super Bowl 40, I`ve got a little competition on the phone, Ricki Lake.
(LAUGHTER)
RICKI LAKE, CONTESTANT, ABC`S "DANCING WITH THE STARTS": How are you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: So I hear you`re trying to off me in your Viennese waltz? What`s that all about?
LAKE: No, it`s not personal. I`m just trying to take this home. Because I too am playing for charity. My nanny, former nanny --
GRACE: I hear "Show Girls."
LAKE: -- is from Africa. The Jacaranda Foundation -- my nanny, my former nanny is feeding and educating 400 children in Malawi, orphans, all orphans by AIDS. So, you know, we -- I have a purpose, too.
GRACE: Hey, Ricki, Ricki?
LAKE: Yes?
GRACE: I appreciate that, but the reality is, when we were getting fitted for our outfits, she tried to push me down the stairs like in "Show Girls." It happened, it was real, I felt her hot little hands right here - - right on the stairs. If it hadn`t been for Tristan MacManus standing in front of me, I would be dead right now.
So thanks, Ricki.
LAKE: You know what? Nancy, I`m going to have to press charges on you for that. That`s -- you know, fraud.
GRACE: Hey, Ricki, I heard that you hurt your leg in practice, is that true?
LAKE: Well, yes. The truth is, I did hurt myself. I did not need any medical attention.
GRACE: No, OK, wait a minute.
LAKE: I don`t know where that happened.
GRACE: I thought that was a false report, you actually did hurt your leg?
LAKE: Well, no -- OK, I banged my heel, my shoe, you know --
GRACE: OK, now, wait a minute. Ricki, Band-Aids don`t count. OK? That`s not a real injury.
LAKE: Just so you know I didn`t call EMS. But you know the reports were crazy. I was in the studio with Derek, my amazing partner, for four hours, and then I come out and I find out the fire department apparently showed up. I mean, it was crazy. No, I`m fine.
GRACE: You know what, you could have called me, I have a Buzz from "Toy Story" Band-Aid with me at all times for the twins.
I`m going to go back to Hines Ward, because Ricki Lake is, you know, horning in here. Ricki Lake, you all see her in "Hairspray." She now claims she can`t dance. But I saw her bust a move on the dance floor. And I`ll put it out there. I`m scared.
Back to Hines Ward. Hines, I need some advice.
WARD: You know what? Just go out there and have fun. You know I was nervous the first episode I was so -- I was extremely nervous because I never danced a day in my life ever. So to go out there and dance in front of a live audience and on live television was something -- was very nerve- racking for me. But once I got over that, I was fine.
GRACE: You are seeing video of season 12 winner Hines Ward with us taking your calls. Ricky Lake, Tristan MacManus, and Hines Ward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I am one of the lucky contestants.
BERGERON: The courtroom queen, Nancy Grace.
GRACE: A lot of stiff competition. But I`ve got a lot of heart.
HAMMER: When you got the call about doing the show, did you just fall off your chair or did you say yes, this makes perfect sense?
GRACE: I actually thought I was being punked.
HAMMER: You are going to be a fan favorite. We`re pulling for you on your dancing gig.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Want to say congrats on "Dancing with the Starts." I`m so excited to watch you.
GRACE: Thank you. And fingers crossed.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live and taking your calls. With me my partner for season 13, Irishman Tristan MacManus is joining us. Also contestant, competing against, Ricki Lake. Also Hines Ward, "Dancing with the Stars" season 12 winner.
Out to the lines. Sabrina in Connecticut, hi, Sabrina, what`s your question?
SABRINA, CALLER FROM CONNECTICUT: Hi, Nancy. I`m so excited to watch you on this next season of "Dancing with the Stars." My question is for Tristan.
Tristan, which dance are you most looking forward to dancing with Nancy?
MACMANUS: At the moment it`s just the first one, to be honest with you. I mean, obviously --
GRACE: You know we`ll (INAUDIBLE) that bridge when we get there.
MACMANUS: That`s it. I guess everyone has their favorite dances. I like them all for different reasons.
GRACE: You know what?
MACMANUS: We`ll be lucky enough that our first dance is going to be a cha-cha. So I think that`s going to be a great one. At the moment I`m going to take every dance as they come. But certainly the cha-cha is going to be the fun one to start with.
GRACE: You know they could use you at the U.N. because you certainly answer that with a lot of diplomacy.
To Wanda in Alabama. Hi, Wanda, what`s your question?
WANDA, CALLER FROM ALABAMA: Yes, I just wanted to ask Tristan how -- is this Nancy that I`m talking to?
GRACE: Yes, dear.
WANDA: I just wanted to tell you, I love you, I love you for what you do.
GRACE: Thank you.
WANDA: And I wanted to ask Tristan how he thinks you`re doing on "Dancing with the Stars" and to tell him he better take care of you.
GRACE: Thank you. That call`s for you, Tristan.
MACMANUS: Yes. No worries. Nancy is doing great. Nancy is doing great. So, I mean, I kind of have to say that at the moment. But At the same time I believe, I believe what I`m saying. You know? She`s doing very, very good. She`s very receptive to what I`m trying to teach her. But everybody`s doing -- I mean -- sorry?
GRACE: I think you`re in the middle of saying everything is going great. But guys, that`s not what`s happening in practice. He`s like, every five steps I`m having to stop and start over.
I want to thank Ricki Lake, my competitor, and Hines Ward, last season`s winner, and of course my partner Tristan.
Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Harry Buck Winkler III, 32, Clarkesville, Tennessee, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation. Loved soccer, surfing, running. Remembered for his positive outlook. He leaves behind mother Debbie, sister Kathy, brother David, widow Charity, son Owen.
Harry Winkler, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
