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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Casey`s Parents Reveal All
Aired September 13, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Cindy and George Anthony`s first shocking sit-down interview since the trial. Casey`s parents open up to Dr. Phil, and no question is off limits. Will we finally hear the truth about what happened to little Caylee? We`re taking your calls.
Plus, we`re back in Casey`s courtroom, but this time it`s a Florida millionaire on trial for murder. Cops say he called 911 to report he shot his wife in the face. Then he changed his story and said she committed suicide. We`ll show you bizarre video from moments after she died.
And an unbelievable rescue caught on tape. A crowd saves a man moments from death. You won`t believe how they did it.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST: One of the biggest problems they had is trying to wrap their mind around that a child of theirs could do something horrific to their child.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Shut up! I`m talking. I am talking!
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: And I overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: Are the Anthonys in any kind of therapy themselves?
MCGRAW: At this point, I don`t believe so.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would do anything to protect her?
G. ANTHONY: Yes.
CINDY ANTHONY: You slandered me on TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
CINDY ANTHONY: And you perjured yourself with this.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When they were in the elevator, they held each other and cried each other`s arms for the entire 23 floors.
CINDY ANTHONY: Please, before I lose my husband right now.
BAEZ: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms, and shortly thereafter, George began to yell at her, "Look what you`ve done! Your mother will never forgive you, and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest of your freaking life."
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. Sorry, sorry.
MCGRAW: The issues here, the family dynamics here, the conflicts of divided loyalty between your daughter and your granddaughter, just have them so conflicted.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, the interview everybody has been waiting for. The parents of the most hated person in America speak out for the very first time since the stunning acquittal of their daughter, Casey Anthony.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from New York City.
Cindy and George Anthony sat down for a no-rules, take-no-prisoners, ask-any-question-you-want interview with Dr. Phil, and the good doctor hit them with everything he`s got.
One big revelation: Cindy claims -- are you sitting down, people -- Casey might have a very serious mental illness. Here`s the most amazing part. Cindy claims that little Caylee`s birth actually triggered Casey`s mental health breakdown. Listen to this from Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Looking back now, I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop postpartum schizophrenia or some type of issue after her pregnancy, a hormonal type of illness. I mean, and that`s my perception, because none of those behaviors were exhibited prior to her pregnancy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What?! Postpartum schizophrenia? Really? Seriously? Where is Cindy getting that diagnosis? She is not a medical doctor. And even if this was a slightest bit true, why didn`t Casey use it as a defense in her murder trial?
Do you believe Cindy? What do you think about their explanations? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297.
Tonight, we have an amazing panel of experts -- and I mean experts -- on the Casey Anthony case. And we begin with Dr. Dale Archer, psychiatrist, for a good reason.
Dr. Dale, what do you make of Cindy`s claim that Casey may have postpartum schizophrenia?
DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: Well, first of all, that`s not a diagnosis. The diagnosis (AUDIO GAP) this is a very serious medical condition. And you have hallucinations and you have delusions. And it`s the type of thing where anyone around you would know you are very gravely mentally ill and you need to se a psychiatrist.
There is zero -- and I mean zero -- evidence that at any time Casey Anthony had any type of psychosis. I haven`t seen any hallucinations, no delusions, no reports, nothing.
And of course, that begs the question, if any of that was there, the defense would have been all over that, saying, "Look, she had a psychotic break back then, and now she`s having another one, you know, you know, which is contributing to her lies and her deceit" and on and on and on. So I think...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, guess what, Dr. Dale...
ARCHER: ... it`s denial on the Anthonys` part.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It doesn`t end with postpartum schizophrenia. There are more "medical issues," hypothetical ones, anyway. Get this, from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Her ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, had Casey taken to the hospital for a grand mal seizure .
MCGRAW: Has she ever been evaluated? Has she had MRIs?
CINDY ANTHONY: At that time she did.
MCGRAW: And did they find anything?
CINDY ANTHONY: Not at that time. But again a year and a half later, she had another grand mal seizure. So again, what is triggering it? Is it a hormonal response? Is it something that comes and goes? I don`t know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, when ex-fiance Jesse Grund took Casey to the hospital, they did a slew of tests and they found absolutely nothing. And Casey allegedly told Jesse, "Well, maybe I had one too many Red Bulls."
Mike Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney, we all watched this case. I find it fascinating -- and we`re going to get to Cindy`s psychological issues in a second -- but I find this pattern -- it doesn`t end there. We`ve got another one for you. Another medical explanation from Cindy. This pattern of rationalization and excuse that has now a medical component.
MIKE EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Do you really find it fascinating, Jane? I mean, really?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I do.
EIGLARSH: I don`t -- you know, I take exception to your use of the word "sh" word. You know, this isn`t shocking that a mother, particularly this one, who committed perjury in a trial, is someone trying to come up with excuses to justify the other theory, that her daughter may just be like this sociopathic monster that Dr. Phil is suggesting.
It`s not shocking to me. It`s what I expected. And this whole interview today, ho-hum.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are absolutely wrong. This is a fascinating insight into something that I`ve studied for a long time as a recovering alcoholic.
EIGLARSH: What`s shocking? What`s shocking?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... is a double winner and has co-dependency issues.
EIGLARSH: What`s shocking?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s shocking that -- it`s shocking that she would volunteer to go on national television after everything she`s been through...
EIGLARSH: Five hundred thousand dollars.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, wait a second, she -- they didn`t get any money. It was all given to a charity foundation.
EIGLARSH: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It is shocking that she would go on national television when she could opt to say absolutely nothing, and insult the world`s intelligence with ridiculous excuse after ridiculous excuse that do not hold water.
It never shocks me when people exhibit a level of denial that they cannot see is ridiculous, because they`re inside it and they`re not outside of it.
EIGLARSH: She doesn`t want to believe her daughter`s a monster. That shocks you?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joe Episcopo, defense attorney. You`re down there in Florida. You watched this whole thing.
What`s shocking to me is the wall of denial and the thickness of the wall of denial and the codependency, because codependency is like being an accomplice. Codependency provides the person who`s doing the bad thing with a safety net so they can keep doing it over and over and over again.
And after the horror that she went through, Cindy Anthony, she still has not stopped being a codependent enabler, filled with rationalizations and excuses and justifications for her daughter`s behavior.
JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, this interview sucked. It was worthless. There`s absolutely no new information we`ve gotten here.
We want to know what happened to Caylee. We don`t care about Cindy. She doesn`t have the answers. Obviously, the stuff we`ve been hearing is the same stuff we`ve all been hearing all during the trial. There`s nothing new here. It`s a waste of time talking to these people. It really was a worthless interview.
EIGLARSH: I agree with Joe 100 percent.
ARCHER: I couldn`t disagree with that more. I couldn`t disagree with that more.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, thank you. Thank you, Dr. Dale.
ARCHER: This -- yes, this is absolutely telling when you look at this. And you have to understand that Casey`s behavior didn`t grow up in a vacuum. These parents are what molded her into who she is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
ARCHER: So you look at this, and what you`re seeing is a fascinating study of family dynamics and a dysfunctional family. And you`re basically seeing a mom and dad who are riddled with guilt because of the fact that the red flags were everywhere and for 31 days, they did nothing. They did nothing.
So now they have to come up with a rationalization to explain to the world and to themselves why they didn`t take action and understanding that if they had, everything might have been very, very different.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess what, OK? It does not end with postpartum schizophrenia and grand mal seizures. Cindy also throws in a possible tumor. A possible tumor for good measure. Here again is Cindy Anthony on "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know why she`s having a seizure. Does she have a brain tumor, or were the seizures caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened. And that`s what I want to find out down the road. And I`m not making a seizure.
Is she having a brain tumor where the seizure`s caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out. I don`t know what happened. And that`s what I want to find out down the road. And I`m not making justifications for that, but there`s a cause for those -- you don`t just have a grand mal seizure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, if you listen to that carefully, Cindy Anthony seems to be implying that whatever happened to little Caylee happened while Casey was blacked out from a grand mal seizure.
Beth Karas, you and I covered the trial. Wouldn`t the defense have hopped on that day one for their accidental death claim three long years ago?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": If she had blacked out and this accident had occurred during the blackout, this would not be a death penalty case. Any defense attorney with that information would have gone to the prosecution and said, "We`ve got a big mistake here, and this is what`s going on." So Cindy was just throwing that out as a possibility.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She`s throwing three things out as a possibility.
KARAS: This is not the interview to find out what happened to little Caylee. There`s only one person who can answer those questions, and she`s not talking, at least not yet.
I agree with everybody. We`re not really learning anything new from George and Cindy, but it was a good score for Dr. Phil to get the first interview with them, even though it`s still not anything new.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I guess what I`m saying is, it is a fascinating insight into mother/daughter dynamics. This is happening on a lesser scale all over America. And, indeed, probably the world. Mothers who cover for their misbehaving children and enable them to become monsters.
Brad Conway, I have been a key defender of Cindy and George. You used to be the attorney for Cindy and George. I don`t want to say anything mean, but it is absolutely astounding that she has the audacity to get on a national show and spew these ridiculous false medical conditions and say it with a straight face. Does she suffer from mental problems? Cindy?
BRAD CONWAY, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ANTHONYS: Jane, I can`t answer that question. I will tell you that the depth of my compassion for George and Cindy`s loss will never, ever change.
But reality should have hit them both in the face, hard, at the beginning of Jose Baez`s ludicrous accusations that George was a child molester and that he had something to do with the disposal of Caylee`s body. That`s when they should have stepped into reality and out of the shadow of their daughter`s continuous lies. And she will never, ever tell the truth. She`s the only one that knows, and she`ll keep it to her grave.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you see where Casey got the ability to lie.
CONWAY: Well, you know, I...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She got it from Cindy. Cindy is lying to the nation with a straight face, pretending that she believes this nonsense.
All right, we`re just getting started, guys and gals. Remember, Nancy Grace will have so much more on this interview at the top of the hour. Her exclusive guest, Drew Kesse, the father of a woman who`s been missing for five years, has some choice words for Cindy and George.
And get this: starting Monday, our own Nancy Grace kicks off the new season of ABC`s "Dancing with the Stars." Check her out! Way to go, Nancy! Nancy`s going to be hitting the dance floor with her amazing partner, Tristan MacManus. Get ready to vote for Nancy. We wish you the best, Nancy. You`re going to knock them dead.
All right, more jaw-dropping clips from Dr. Phil`s interview with Cindy and George. You won`t believe what`s coming up.
And we`re taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. What do you think?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning, that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CASEY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
MCGRAW: When they opened the trunk, there was garbage in there and trash in there, and in fact, something had maggots growing on it.
CINDY ANTHONY: It was pretty strong. I mean, I use that expression, you know, "What died?"
MCGRAW: When they went to pick the car up and George walked up to the car, the smell was overwhelming.
RIVER CRUZ, CLAIMED SHE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH GEORGE ANTHONY: I did have an affair with George.
BAEZ: When Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately, and it escalated and it escalated.
G. ANTHONY: I need to get through this. I need to have something inside of me get through this.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The trial of the century. Casey Anthony acquitted, then becomes the most hated person in America, according to surveys. Her parents, Cindy and George sit down with Dr. Phil, and the excuses from Cindy are absolutely mind boggling.
I want to go out to Sandy in Louisiana. Your question or thought, Sandy?
CALLER: Hi, Jane, how are you?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m doing great.
CALLER: Jane, I thought the trial upset me. Needless to say, I am chapped beyond. You know, I can understand that -- I felt sorry for the Anthonys, losing a granddaughter. But the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Where in God`s name did this woman get a nursing degree? Schizophrenia? Postpartum schizophrenia? Grand mal seizures? Give me a break here. I think they all -- if no one hated the Anthonys before this, I truly do hate them all now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, I have to say, Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, I think this is going to boomerang on them. If they wanted to explain themselves, this is not the way to go about it.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, it isn`t. And again, this just goes to show they are narcissistic, egotistic, self-centered draw, and their misperceptions of reality.
I mean, the reality is, I learned something new today, and that was, George Anthony actually admitted that he was kind of leading a double life. And Cindy Anthony said she didn`t even know the man that she was living with at that time, when he was gambling thousands, $30,000 at a time, on the online gambling. Then they were separated. Then they got back together. Then he`s having an affair. She still doesn`t know who he is. So where is her perception...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, he didn`t admit to the affair. He admitted to having an online gambling problem. And guess what? Anybody here who doesn`t have any kind of an addictive problem and has no kind of character defects, please raise your hand. Because as a recovering alcoholic, I certainly have my share of character defects.
We`re going to get to George in a second.
WEINTRAUB: Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I want to focus for a second on Cindy Anthony. Because she is just a character study in pathological denial and codependency. And here she is, again, on "Dr. Phil."
You remember these photos. I`ve got to show them to you. You know the photos of Casey when she was dirty dancing, and she was doing the hot body contest? OK. And there was another one of her dancing with a girl, OK? OK. That`s one. There`s many of them. We`ve got some good ones, even better ones than that.
OK, on the other side of the break, you are going to hear Cindy Anthony`s astounding explanation for why Casey Anthony participated in this hot body contest, all right, when her daughter was, quote unquote, "missing." Why she partied, why she got a tattoo. You won`t believe what Casey`s mom has to say.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MCGRAW: I said, isn`t it possible that this is just a really bad character flaw, that this is the actions of an unconscionable psychopath or sociopath? And I`m not saying that Casey is that. I don`t know. I haven`t evaluated her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hardened cops couldn`t get Casey Anthony to crack and tell the truth. And even the one-and-only Dr. Phil grilled Cindy and George and cannot get Cindy to face reality. Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, Cindy continues to search for any possible excuse to explain away her daughter`s behavior.
Here is more from the "Dr. Phil" show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: Your theory is that she is a victim in this in some way, a victim of an illness, a tumor, or something.
CINDY ANTHONY: I truly believe that. Because there was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.
MCGRAW: Other than the fact that she wasn`t providing for her daughter.
CINDY ANTHONY: Right.
MCGRAW: She was out roaming around town when she was supposedly at work. She was manufacturing friends, playmates, play dates, nannies, all of those sort of things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: An awesome mother. That`s what Cindy calls Casey, an awesome mother. I think the denial is really so monumental that it`s almost like a teaching moment about the danger of denial and the insidious nature of being basically an accomplice to somebody else`s bad behavior, which is the definition of codependency. Because there`s a little tiny girl there.
And see, the thing about codependency is that codependents mean well. They seem themselves in the role of victim and martyr, and they are long suffering, and they are always on the right side. They are nice. More than anything else, they are nice. But if they enable people to do really bad things, are they really nice?
Dorothy, South Carolina, your question or thought?
CALLER: Yes, I have watched this ever since day one, and I`m so happy to get to talk to you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: I love your show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you.
CALLER: And I think you`re doing a great thing for everybody in the country.
But, anyway, I get so worked up over this, it`s amazing to me I haven`t had a heart attack. I`m telling you, I have never seen such liars in all of my entire life. They are absolutely ridiculous.
And I think Cindy and Casey both should be behind bars, and Casey should have to pay every penny that it has cost for the whole trial and all of this mess that`s going on now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, well, Dorothy, I think you have expressed the sentiments of so many people, and thank you for calling, and thank you for watching our show. Keep watching.
All right, we`ve got more Casey Anthony shockers coming up.
Related breaking news right now. Get this. HLN has just confirmed the prime suspect in Robyn Gardner`s disappearance in Aruba has hired attorney Jose Baez. That`s right. The very same man who got Casey Anthony acquitted of murder is now part of Gary Giordano`s defense team.
Giordano was arrested in Aruba last month after his travel companion, the beautiful Robyn Gardner, vanished. He claims Robyn got swept out to sea while snorkeling. Police say his story does not check out. He had taken a $1.5 million travel insurance policy out on Robyn. More in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S LAWYER: Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: And I`m going to look in every nook and cranny until I find her.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": She was out partying, she was laughing, she was joking with people when allegedly her child`s body was in the trunk of her car.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.
Casey was the last one that I saw with Caylee. One and one adds up to two, sir, in my mind.
CINDY ANTHONY: You call for a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) one more time and you`re going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
I started looking at chlorophyll, and then that prompted me to look up chloroform.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.
CROWD: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Finally, the big interview everybody`s been waiting for with -- well, are they incredible revelations from Casey Anthony`s parents?
Hello, everyone, Jane Velez-Mitchell back with you live from New York City.
These were central figures in the trial of the century. They`ve been publicly grieving for their granddaughter, and now Cindy and George take to the "Dr. Phil" show and we have been listening to how Cindy continuously rationalizes Casey`s behavior, even rationalizing these photos and her participation in a hot body contest during the 31 days that her daughter was missing when she still hadn`t called cops.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: For six months that Caylee was gone, I was devastated. I cried, but during that time, did I socialize with friends and maybe laugh once or twice at a joke? Yes. And if someone would have isolated that in a photograph and plastered it all over, would I be just as guilty as Casey?
MCGRAW: Cindy, you weren`t involved in the death.
CINDY ANTHONY: I understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cindy still making excuses for anything and everything Casey did, and this is allowing us tonight to take a good, hard look at co-dependency, which I believe is a disease. It is an addiction, just like drug or alcohol addiction, and I think Cindy is suffering from it.
Tonight, we have an amazing panel of experts, and I`ve been duelling with Mark Eiglarsh over the significance of this.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m not done.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, ok --
EIGLARSH: I`m not done with you. And you just gave me more ammunition.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Can I go?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
EIGLARSH: It`s your show. You`ve got three names, but I`m going. You just said --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve got more than three names for you, my friend, but I`m not able to repeat them on television.
EIGLARSH: Ok, off the air.
So you just said that her co-dependency, which you`ve diagnosed her with, is similar to that of an addict. So she suffers like the AMA says a disease, correct? So what`s with the anger, Jane? What are you yelling at her for? Would you yell at an addict?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You`re yelling at me.
EIGLARSH: I know. I`ll take it down a notch. Honestly, I`m a little passionate about this. Everyone`s so consumed with anger. We had a caller talking getting chest pains, a heart attack.
What do you expect from Cindy? She`s doing the best that she can at her level of awareness under these circumstances.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, my God. Oh, come on.
Mark: Let her be. Let her be, everybody. Come on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, because I`ll tell you why.
Mark: How is this going to affect us? How does this hurt us? The trial`s over. We know the truth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Actually, I`m looking beyond the trial, and I`m looking at this as a teaching moment, because millions of people around the country and the world suffer from co-dependency.
Mark: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it is when you allow, it`s the sober wife who allows her drunk husband to get drunk over and over again and constantly makes excuses and constantly covers for him and constantly rationalizes and constantly cleans up his messes. And she considers herself a good person and a wonderful person for doing it. But in fact, she`s addicted to the drama that her husband provides, giving her life meaning and giving her life negative excitement, which for many people, is better than no excitement at all.
And in fact, she`s the one who allows her husband to continue being the drunk. And the day that she actually says, I`m not going to cover for you anymore, I`m cutting the umbilical cord, and actually just disengages, ironically, that`s the day that that drunk husband often finally does get sober, because she has removed the safety net.
And I would like to bring in Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychologist, to explain further what I am talking about.
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, Jane, you`re absolutely right. And in this particular case, you have to understand that for many enablers, it`s all the same. It`s about not taking responsibility for their life.
So what Cindy does here is defend Casey and says she has a disease and a brain tumor and schizophrenia because of the fact that she did not take action. So she is doing that to defend herself, really. It looks like she`s defending Casey, but in reality, she`s defending the fact that she did nothing, even though the red flags were everywhere and she knew she should have done something, but she didn`t. That`s what this is about and that`s what --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s another point that you`re making. Co- dependents act like they`re selfless, but they are selfish. They have their own selfish motivations.
ARCHER: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cindy`s excuses are absolutely mind-boggling, and they`re blood-boiling to some. Here she is again on Dr. Phil. Listen, again, remember the hot body contest? We have those photos for you.
Listen to how she continues to justify Casey`s participation in this hot body contest, just days after her daughter has vanished off the face of the earth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: One of the girls that was supposed to be up there dancing did not show up, so they asked Casey to fill in, and reluctantly, she did. And this was not brought up at trial, that Casey`s mood was very, kind of subdued when she first got there.
And I`m not making excuses for her --
MCGRAW: I think you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Casey`s mood was subdued? Let`s check out the photos one more time -- as we go to Dorothy in Louisiana -- that`s not subdued. Dorothy, your question or thought?
DOROTHY, LOUISIANA (via telephone): Well, I`ve been in a co- dependency relationship with my son who is a drug addict for over ten years, and his drug use was a direct result from my cleaning up his messes and making excuses and lying constantly when I knew deep down the truth, until one day I admitted to myself and to him that I will not tolerate this behavior anymore.
And that`s when he got help and has been clean and sober for going on three years, on his own, taking care of himself. And I do feel sorry for Cindy. I understand what she`s going through. But she`s got to take a look in the mirror the way I did and look at herself and say, I don`t understand how this child that I gave my heart and soul to ended up this way, but this is the way it is and I have to just move forward, but deal with her problems and go on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dorothy, your wisdom is absolutely on target.
Beth Karas, I thought I heard Cindy say something about her going to therapy? What do you know?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": She apparently has been in therapy for the past three years or so, and that`s a good thing.
I also wanted to add to this discussion why I think Cindy is acting the way she is, at least with respect to this incident. Not the entire relationship with her daughter. I believe Lee Anthony, and I believe Lee when he says that she told him that night that mom had been telling her she was an unfit mother. And I believe Lee, that he told Jesse Grund, who then told the police, and it`s in the reports, that Casey and Cindy had a big knockdown drag-out fight the night before Caylee went missing. And that Cindy was accusing her of being an unfit mother.
And the next thing you know, Caylee`s dead. That somehow Cindy is blaming herself for that fight and maybe the things that she said.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Brad Conway, would you like to comment briefly on what Beth just said?
BRAD CONWAY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, well, actually I want to comment on what Mark said. I agree with Mark in terms of leaving the Anthonys alone, but for a very different reason. If they want to live in denial, if they want to live under Casey`s lies, let them live there. You know, there`s so much that we can do --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re living under their own lies, Brad.
Brad: But there are things we can do for families of missing children, abused children, and neglected children that we can do for them. So why waste the energy, the time, and the heartache on a family that wants to live with her lies?
Mark: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ll tell you why, because it is an opportunity for all of us to take a look at our own behavior.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If we don`t learn something from these stories, then we have truly wasted our time. But this story -- criminal trials are one of the few places where we get to hear secrets, where we get to see beneath the exterior. And we get to see the ugly, messy dynamics that are really going on in families.
And I don`t think that Cindy, George, and Casey are radically different from other Americans, when you take away Casey`s behavior and you take away this tragedy, co-dependency, you just heard from that caller, it`s happening everywhere. And maybe we can save another life by looking at this dysfunction and saying, "Hey, we don`t want to behave that way."
So you have to analyze, you have to figure out what is going on. Can`t just throw out the sound bites and say, oh, this sucks. You`ve got to understand it and learn from it.
Panel, much more to come.
And tonight, Dr. Drew is going to feature compelling stories of people who are battling obsessive behaviors. Going to take a look at an animal hoarder as well as a father addicted to extreme sports.
Dr. Drew will also have an exclusive interview with the world`s heaviest woman and how she is trying to regain her life from food addiction.
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PAULINE POTTER, 2012 GUINNESS RECORD HOLDER: I don`t want my life to slip away and possibly die from this, or even if I didn`t die, even let`s just say I lived to be 80 I want more out of life. I want to be more physically active. I don`t want to have to sit in the backseat of my own car, you know? I want to get in the front seat and drive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: My question was, how do you go from what you describe as just a normal, happy child, cheerleader, all these things to someone that could do that and I want to know what you all think there. And Cindy`s answer to that is, look, I think she may have a brain tumor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable interview, Dr. Phil asked them every question in the book, cannot break down the wall of denial that Cindy has.
Do you remember this night, right after her acquittal? Casey Anthony was freed and I was right there, it was a crazy night, there were protesters and Casey leaves the jail through the front door, gets into an SUV and disappears into the night and aside from a couple of paparazzi photos here and there, we don`t know where she is. She`s somewhere hiding underground, believed to be in Florida, but we don`t know for sure.
I mean she`s on probation, so technically, she`s supposed to be in Florida. Nobody`s seen her, though, in Florida. She`s underground.
Well, it was around this time that Cindy, her mother, visited her right before she was released and wanted to talk to her daughter and congratulate her on being acquitted. And Casey said, no, I don`t want to talk to you, mom, even though many people believe Cindy perjured herself, lied on the stand about Internet searches that were incriminating and said she did those Internet searches in order to try to rescue and save her daughter.
Well, watch this from the "Dr. Phil" show. Cindy is asked about how she feels about Casey right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I was talking to Casey on a daily basis. From my understanding, Caylee was fine and having fun, you know, with her little playmates.
MCGRAW: Are you mad at her for this?
CINDY ANTHONY: I guess, I think I`m past the anger stage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Joe Episcopo, defense attorney, and former prosecutor, you`ve covered a lot of relatives who have been involved with people who have been accused of terrible crimes. Do you -- you always see the mother there, near the defendant, no matter what? When everybody else has abandoned the defendant, the mom is always there. Do we need to take that into consideration?
JOE EPISCOPO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I don`t think it carries a lot of weight either with the jury, either during the death phase or even during the trial itself, but, you know, I think it`s a lot more simpler than you`re making this out to be.
Look, she wanted to go out and have fun, she had to keep the child quiet, it was an accidental overdose. She didn`t want to kill the child. After she committed the crime, she tried to act normal and tried to act like she didn`t do it. She tried to act innocent.
And you know what; the jury had a reasonable doubt. And that`s what happened. All this psychobabble, I mean, come on, you`re making more out of it than it really is. She`s a criminal that got away with it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? I don`t call it psychobabble. I call it dialectic argument and counter-argument to reach a higher understanding of the subject matter. And I -- who`s laughing? I think I heard Mark Eiglarsh laughing.
EPISCOPO: I`m laughing too.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, maybe you should all go into therapy and you wouldn`t laugh so much.
EPISCOPO: Hey, listen -- just because you`ve got a problem, doesn`t mean we do.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, you know what, it`s the people who acknowledge having problems are the ones who don`t have them. It`s the ones who say they`re perfect who are really sick.
With that, I`m going to go to Tina in Florida. Your question or thought, Tina.
TINA, FLORIDA (via telephone): Hi, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi.
TINA: love your show, love you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you, thank you.
TINA: listen, I`m on Cindy`s side in a way here. I`m a mother. I have a child that`s 31 years old that`s a recovering alcoholic, two years now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, congratulations on her sobriety.
TINA: I think this has a lot to do with maturity in Casey`s case, and a mother will go way far and beyond to protect their kids, especially daughters. And people may think I`m crazy, but I can see where Cindy`s coming from. I wouldn`t have necessarily done the interview that she did, I would have let Casey done hers first, but that`s my thought.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think you`re raising an important point. I think - - I would certainly not be saying anything about Cindy or George right now, except that they decided to go on Dr. Phil and proactively, in Cindy`s case, promote a bunch of theories to justify her daughter`s irresponsible, at the very least, behavior.
So, essentially, I would say, Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney, they`re asking for it. They had to know that people are going to comment on their hypotheses.
WEINTRAUB: And their lies. I mean when Cindy said today that she was -- she didn`t mean that the baby was missing physically, she meant that Caylee was missing in her heart. I just looked at the television set and said, give me a break. Is she kidding?
She`s just not making excuses, she`s making up lies. This is not improv. There`s no reason for her to do this. I think you`re being far too kind by giving her this label of co-dependency. She is not a victim. She is a liar and she`s stepping up to the plate and continuing this lie for her own self-value to cash in on this somehow. That`s my take on it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen --
EPISCOPO: That`s good. I agree.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- I think that you could boil it all down and just say she`s a liar. And liars have existed since the dawn of time, and they will probably always exist, as long as there are human beings roaming this planet. But I think that we can get a little more sophisticated than just calling somebody a liar.
And underneath lying, there are dynamics at work. And the dynamic of co-dependency is a very real thing, that people need to learn a lot more about, so that not just reacting and being reacting and being victims, that they can be participants and change their behavior.
More, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: I think her saying what she`s saying about the tumor lacks such credibility to an objective finder of fact that -- that doesn`t wash. I mean nobody is going to believe that.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST, "THE JOY BEHAR SHOW": No, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: More from the Dr. Phil interview with Cindy and George, and Cindy has used every excuse in the book. She said my daughter has postpartum schizophrenia, and she had grand mal seizures and she may have had a tumor. Here`s what really caught my eye about Dr. Phil`s interview. Watch this exchange -- you all watched the trial, I covered the trial -- watch this exchange between Cindy and Dr. Phil. See if you remember this fact from the trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: She called you six times in four minutes.
CINDY ANTHONY: Something, obviously, was going on right then and there. She was trying to reach out to me. And she called my work phone. She called my cell phone. At one point I was in a meeting, and I could tell in her voice something was going on. I wish she would have blurted out, "Mom, I need you."
MCGRAW: Was she upset? Was she crying?
CINDY ANTHONY: I can`t remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you, I can`t remember that from the trial, and I don`t know if anybody on our panel can. But the fact that Dr. Phil zeroes in on this frantic Casey Anthony calling Cindy six times in four minutes, I would think that that could have been pretty incriminating to lay out, well, this was the moment when things were going down.
And I think it`s an example of how the prosecution really dropped the ball in this case. There was memorable rhetoric, where is Caylee? But there weren`t a lot of memorable incriminating facts that led to what was she doing in the crucial moments when she allegedly murdered the child, which, of course, she`s been acquitted for?
Do you want to weigh in on that, Mark Eiglarsh?
MARK: I do, Jane. I don`t blame the prosecutors at all. I think they did the best they could with the evidence they had. It just wasn`t there, apparently, according to these jurors; the detail that you are looking for, the detail that they were looking for it`s not their fault.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excuse me. If there were, in fact, six calls, it would have been there in the phone records.
Mark: That`s right, Jane. That would have made this a guilty verdict. I`m sorry. You`re right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Honestly, I do feel -- oh, ok. They did a great job, and the jurors were lazy? Is that what you want to say? No. I disagree with you.
Mark: No, I didn`t say -- hold on. Do not put words in my mouth. I didn`t say they were lazy. They did their job. I disagreed with the outcome, but they were courageous because in spite of feeling that she did commit some offense, they didn`t have enough evidence, and that`s what our system is about. I never said what you just alleged, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say this. When -- and Beth, you`ll back me up on this. You were sitting next to me. When the prosecution`s closing argument was done and everybody was raving, I said I wasn`t that impressed. Remember that, Beth?
KARAS: That`s right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I wasn`t that impressed because it wasn`t that specific. It wasn`t that specific. If you`re going to accuse somebody of murder -- go ahead.
KARAS: The evidence is what it is. They can`t create evidence. Under these facts you`re not going to not prosecute her, and you just let the chips fall where they may. They believed they had enough. Some criticized them for perhaps overcharging it or seeking death but you`re not going to charge Casey Anthony under these facts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I just think that there was a way to maybe hone in on some of the key incriminating details in the way that they did not. And that is my personal opinion I think it`s -- again, another learning experience.
More Dr. Phil next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cindy may have had a slew of hypothetical, possibly made-up medical conditions to explain her daughter`s behavior. But I do have to give Dr. Phil some credit. He didn`t buy any of them. Watch how he closed out his show today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: She advanced three main theories: brain tumor, postpartum schizophrenia and grand mal seizures. Cindy admits she does not have any medical evidence of a brain tumor. And as a medical health professional I am frankly skeptical that grand mal seizures would contribute to what happened here. In addition, I have not seen any evidence that Casey suffered from postpartum schizophrenia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tomorrow Dr. Phil talks to George Anthony about the allegations of molestation against him. That`s sure to be a shocker, and we are going to bring you all of it tomorrow here on ISSUES.
END
