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Jane Velez-Mitchell
George & Cindy: Excuses & Denials?
Aired September 14, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, will we finally hear what really happened to little Caylee? It`s part two of Dr. Phil`s explosive interview with Cindy and George Anthony. And if you thought you`ve heard it all, you won`t believe what Casey`s parents are saying now.
George, not holding anything back when it comes to pointing the finger at his daughter, Casey. But Cindy`s not having it.
I have a panel of Casey Anthony experts with me tonight, and we`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST: Your theory is that she is a victim in this in some way.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I truly believe that, because there was never any signs that Casey was an unfit mother. She was an awesome mother.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I just want to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. Sorry, sorry.
MCGRAW: There are millions of people in America right now that want to shake you awake.
CINDY ANTHONY: Call her (EXPLETIVE DELETED) one more time. What are you going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MCGRAW: Cindy`s answer to that is, look, I think she may have a brain tumor.
CINDY ANTHONY: I don`t know what happened. I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop postpartum schizophrenia. I`m not making justifications for that. Were the seizures caused by stress? I don`t know. And I`m not making excuses for her.
MCGRAW: Think you are.
You don`t preclude the possibility that she used that shovel to dig a hole in the ground in the woods and bury her dead baby?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, is there a rift between Cindy and George? And what really happened to little Caylee Anthony? You`ll get the answers right here. And trust me: you have not heard them before.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell coming to you live from New York City. It is day two of the Anthonys` tell-all sit-down exclusive with Dr. Phil, and finally George reveals what he thinks happened to his granddaughter and who is to blame. But does Cindy disagree with her husband, George?
Cindy is saying this is the first time she`s ever heard George express his real opinions. The most emotional moment so far.
Cindy Anthony relives the moments her life turned into a living nightmare when she finds out her daughter, Casey, has been lying to her for 31 days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I just screamed at her. I said, "What the hell are you talking about?" I said, "What do you mean you haven`t seen Caylee?" And that`s when I just screamed at her and I -- I wanted to go choke her or hit her. And I just went over there, and I just punched the bed as hard as I could to get my anger out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It gets even worse. Now even George and Cindy don`t see eye to eye. Watch this and ask yourself: is this marriage, a union that has survived the worst ordeal imaginable, now coming apart at the seams?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: You don`t include the possibility that she used that shovel to dig a hole in the ground in the woods to bury her dead baby?
There are millions of people in America right now that want to shake you awake.
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY: I can`t comprehend. Your daughter doing that to my granddaughter.
MCGRAW: In your mind, you know the truth, don`t you?
CINDY ANTHONY: We`ve been through this for three years, and this is the first time I`ve heard that out of his mouth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The first time Cindy has heard George give his real opinion. Is George finally standing up for himself?
Tonight we have a team of experts on the Casey Anthony case who will analyze what Cindy and George are saying and answer your questions, so I want to hear from you. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That is 1-877- 586-7297.
Straight out to Dr. Judy Kuriansky, clinical psychologist.
Dr. Judy, there are people who have wondered how this relationship between Cindy and George survived the trial, with George being accused of everything from having an affair to molesting his daughter to, let`s see, covering up the crime itself. But do you think this marriage can survive them going on national TV and having complete and total disagreements over who is to blame for their granddaughter`s death?
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it`s very rocky at this moment, Jane, because of that difference in opinion. Because you just heard, as you aired that clip of Cindy saying, "I never heard that before."
That, I think, could be the break where they have stayed together before this, because George is a loose cannon now. He`s speaking out because of all his angst and his psychological distress, and that could be a very bad sign for their relationship.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it`s even more than that. I personally think it`s George finally breaking through and breaking out of the family spell.
There was, I think, some kind of unspoken agreement that they all agreed on a story, and that story was provided to them by -- well, who knows? It changed from moment to moment. But what they did agree on was that the story that everybody else in America seemed to put together was not their story. And now George seems to be breaking free of that family spell.
Here is another key moment from "Dr. Phil" that begs the question, is there now a rift between Cindy and George? Watch this and tell me if you disagree.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I can`t understand how, if my granddaughter was out of her life, she was gone, how she could take this next step. I cannot be out celebrating or having a good time.
MCGRAW: Do you believe that this is out of context and is acceptable behavior?
G. ANTHONY: Personally, no, I don`t. And that`s what her and I struggle with something sometimes, giving her an excuse of why she was here or there.
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not making excuses for her. I want to find out what`s wrong with Casey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yesterday viewers from coast to coast were outraged. I mean, Cindy was offering a litany of excuses. But now we see that George is breaking away from all that rationalization, justification, and codependency on Casey. And he`s kind of telling it like it is.
And Jayne, you`ve been close to the defense. You`ve watched this. I would have to think that Cindy is not liking that, that Cindy is not liking the idea that George is being his own man, for lack of a better word?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I would think that she`s used to it, and I think that she should be raising her own questions about George`s...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, she`s not used to it. She`s not used to it.
WEINTRAUB: It`s sad.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: She has been controlling from the very beginning. Cindy has been controlling.
Let`s see some video of Cindy. Cindy has been controlling from the very beginning. And everybody has said Cindy runs -- runs the household, that Cindy is the one who calls the shots in this house. And I think it takes a lot of courage for George to stand up and speak his mind, even though Cindy might not agree with him, Jayne.
WEINTRAUB: Is he speaking his mind, or is he just throwing dirt on Casey to get back at her for her testimony, you know, or -- or for what Jose said?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Eiglarsh...
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m going to talk to you. My personal feeling, OK -- and I`ve been listening to these interviews -- is that it`s taking a lot of courage for George to finally get up and say, "Enough with the rationalizations, the justifications, the ridiculous explanation that Cindy has been offering and I`m going to tell it like it is. I disagree with my wife. And I believe that my daughter is more responsible for this than we have heretofore admitted."
EIGLARSH: Courage to disagree with your wife? I don`t know. I think that that`s part of a relationship, a healthy one. But here`s the question I have for you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is not a healthy relationship.
EIGLARSH: I know. Here`s my question to you, Jane. Here`s my big issue, if you would. OK? Let`s say Cindy just went along with her husband and said, "Yes, the shovel could have been used to dig a big hole to bury the sweet child. And yes, I agree." What now? Other than not having a place to put your anger, what now? How do our lives change?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it`s important -- and I said this yesterday and I`ll say it again. If we don`t learn from this about sick family dynamics, then we are wasting our time. We have to look at this portrait of family dysfunction and understand the dynamics, which we have many commonalities with. There`s no such thing as a truly functional family. But this one takes the cake.
So, if we learn from what`s going on between this husband and wife and their daughter, and how they do have a pact, an unspoken agreement, then we can learn when we`re doing it in our lives.
Now I want to go back to Cindy for a second. And Cindy took a lot of heat for offering a litany of excuses about Casey`s behavior, from the dirty dancing to the 31 days of lying.
Watch this from "Dr. Phil," Cindy`s excuses for her daughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: Looking back now, I`m almost wondering if she didn`t develop post-partum schizophrenia or some type of issue after her pregnancy.
Does she have a brain tumor? Were the seizures caused by stress? I don`t know. I don`t know if she had a seizure that day and blacked out.
One of the girls that was supposed to be up there dancing did not show up, so they asked Casey to fill in. And reluctantly, she did.
I`m not making excuses for her.
MCGRAW: I think you are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. She is making excuses.
Joe Episcopo, she`s made one excuse after another. And I`m having to wonder: is Cindy perhaps being held emotional hostage by Casey? We know that Cindy desperately wants a relationship with her daughter.
If she says anything that`s negative about her daughter on "Dr. Phil," will that mean that Casey, who`s undoubtedly watching this or is going hear about it, will never, ever repair the relationship with her mother? And is Cindy afraid of that? And is that why she`s coming up with these crazy excuses like, oh, she had a tumor. She had a grand mal seizure. She had post-partum schizophrenia.
JOE EPISCOPO, ATTORNEY: She`s just being a mother. And I don`t see anything wrong with that, unusual about that. But I don`t know where this digging a hole came in. I thought Caylee was thrown into a wetland. I don`t believe a burial was involved. But that`s neither here nor there.
The fact is, is that I don`t see this family as any kind of family to emulate, look at or compare to. Who wants to compare themselves to them? I don`t see that at all. I don`t see any catharsis coming out of this. I think it`s a lousy interview. There`s nothing new here. It`s a waste of time. Dr. Phil is not even a doctor.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? Dr. Phil is very psychologically aware, and I disagree with you all. I think it`s very informative. I think we have a lot more in common with the Anthonys than we want to admit. I think that, in every family, there is the enforcer who says this is the story of our family. And we`re all going to stick with it, people. And you stay on copy, because if you drift from this official portrait of our family, there`s going to be hell to pay.
Think about it. Think about it in your own lives. Is there any story you`ve been told about your family that you have to stick to, any script? And if you deviate from that script, is some member of your family coming at you and say, "How dare you?" Remember, Nancy Grace will have much more on the interview.
At the top of the hour, her exclusive guest, former Casey Anthony judge, Stan Strickland. And starting on Monday, check out Nancy`s debut on the new "Dancing with the Stars" on ABC. She is going to be hitting the dance floor with partner Tristan MacManus. She looks fabulous. She is in dancing shape and gorgeous. Watch Nancy on "Dancing with the Stars," and vote for Nancy.
Again, the season premier, Monday, September 19. You`ve got to check it out. We`re taking your calls, meanwhile, on Casey Anthony. They`re lining up, and we`re going to get to them on the other side of the break: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you present in your home when Caylee Anthony died?
G. ANTHONY: No. When I heard that it hurt me really bad. Because if I had known something happened to Caylee, I would have done something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: One of the biggest problems they have is trying to wrap their mind around that a child of theirs could do something horrific to their child.
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: Yes.
G. ANTHONY: Shut up. I`m talking. I`m talking.
CINDY ANTHONY: Overheard her tell Lee that Caylee had been gone for 31 days.
BEHAR: Are the Anthonys in any kind of therapy themselves?
MCGRAW: At this point, I don`t believe so.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY`S ATTORNEY: She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would do anything to protect her?
G. ANTHONY: Yes.
CINDY ANTHONY: You slandered me on TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop.
CINDY ANTHONY: You perjured yourself with this.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When they were on the elevator, they held each other and cried in each other`s arms the entire 23 floors.
CINDY ANTHONY: Please, before I lose my husband right now.
BAEZ: She saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms and shortly therefore George began to yell at her: "Look what you`ve done! Your mother will never forgive you, and you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest of your freaking life."
CASEY ANTHONY: I just want to let everybody know that I`m sorry for what I did. Sorry. Sorry.
MCGRAW: The issues here, the family dynamics here, the conflicts of divided loyalty between your daughter and your granddaughter, just have them so conflicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The extraordinary Dr. Phil interview with Cindy and George. George seems to be coming out of denial, maybe coming out of the family spell, maybe breaking free from the coercion and the controlling messages not to speak his mind. He is starting to speak his mind.
But Cindy continues to rationalize and justify Casey Anthony`s behavior, and Dr. Phil confronts her. And really confronts her in a very, strong fashion. Listen to this from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: If they`re sociopaths they have no conscience. And they`re often so narcissistic and egotistical that they just think, "I can get away with anything." And they don`t all have brain tumors. They don`t have neurological episodes. They just have a flaw in their character.
There are millions of people in America right now that want to shake you awake. They want to shake you awake and say, "Lady, smell the coffee."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she is smiling. She is smiling as he says, "Nobody is buying what you have to say, Cindy Anthony, in your attempts to protect and cover up for your daughter." And let`s see what Cindy from Washington has to say about all of this.
Cindy, Washington, your question or thought?
CALLER: Hi, Jane. Thanks for taking my call.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thanks.
CALLER: I just want to say that I really admire George for standing up for what he knows to be true. And maybe he had to go on an interview like that to able to say that to her, and I`m also wanting to say that I think Cindy needs to understand it`s not her fault. You raise kids. It`s so easy to feel guilty, and she raised two children that are totally different.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me play this now. This is the big moment. George saying, finally, that he blames Casey for Caylee`s death, the first time we have ever heard this. Here`s Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: There`s nothing more I can say to her, because I blame her for Caylee not being here.
MCGRAW: You blamed her then and you blame her today?
G. ANTHONY: Yes, sir, I do. I do.
Do I believe that Casey is involved with my granddaughter? Yes. Was there someone else that possibly could have helped them? I believe so, too.
Did Casey cover something up? Yes. You can see that. You can see by the lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There you have it, the big moment. We`ve been waiting for George saying he blames Casey for what happened to little Caylee. And our team of experts is going to analyze it on the other side of the break, and we`re going take your calls. It`s finally happened. Reality.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: I said, isn`t it possible that this is just a really bad character flaw, that this is the actions of an unconscionable psychopath or sociopath?
BEHAR: Right.
MCGRAW: And I`m not saying that Casey is that. I don`t know. I haven`t evaluated her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, is George Anthony finally breaking free from the cult of Casey and speaking his mind? The former cop appears to be getting real, finally.
Could he have been afraid to express his real feelings in front of Cindy when they were alone? And then, in front of Dr. Phil, he feels like, "Well, I`m safe to say whatever I want to say now, because Dr. Phil is here, and he`s going to, in a way, protect me." Listen to this from "Dr. Phil."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: How could a beautiful child be placed where she was placed, no matter if it was by my daughter and/or someone else, or two or three of them together. How could they do that? How could they do that to her? Why didn`t she tell us? Why didn`t she give us some kind of ideas of what was going on in her life? She didn`t. She deceived us. She lied to us, her own parents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, when George Anthony took the stand, he said, "I wasn`t there for an accidental drowning. I didn`t -- the defense is lying. I didn`t pick little Caylee up out of the swimming pool." He has never believed the story the defense has told. Has he?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, TRUTV`S "IN SESSION": No, he has not. And that is where he differs from his wife. And while Cindy may -- she does believe, and she said that yesterday, that her husband didn`t have anything to do with it, she does believe it was an accident. And that she has no explanation for how Caylee got where she is but that Casey did it, or at least knows what happens, was there when the accident happened, but George was not.
I think they had a united front, Jane, for purposes of the trial, just because it was such a public spectacle. They were united. They were probably divided always at home, even though Cindy says she heard some new things out of George`s mouth she hadn`t heard before.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know if I believe that. And I respect your opinion. And you`re right quite often, so I could be wrong.
But I honestly think, Levi Page, that it`s kind of like when a kid brother is telling on his older brother. The older brother could beat him up or push him around or -- but then, when they`re in front of somebody who`s more important like the principal, but the kid brother feels like, oh, I can tell the truth now, because I`m safe. And I think Dr. Phil provided that safety for George to speak his mind.
LEVI PAGE, CRIME BLOGGER: I absolutely agree with everything you said, Jane. And I`ve got to say that I think Dr. Phil is doing a very good job during this interview.
When I first heard that the Anthonys were going to be on "Dr. Phil," I thought that, you know what? They`re not going to agree to sit down with someone that`s going to ask them tough questions. They`re only going to go on a show that`s going to throw puff balls at them. Well, I think Dr. Phil has been very aggressive towards Cindy He`s not buying into her act.
And you can see Cindy, while she`s sitting there talking to Dr. Phil and Dr. Phil is saying, "Why are you making excuses for your daughter, who waited 31 days to report her child missing, who lied from you, who is deceitful, who`s been a very big liar," and she smirks. She knows exactly what she`s doing. Cindy is a very manipulative individual. And I think it shows during this interview. And I think this gives us a big insight into how this family works.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m so happy somebody agrees with me. But on the other side, we`re going have Mr. Green Tie, Mark Eiglarsh, give his side. More mind-blowing Anthony interview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened on June 16th? I don`t know what happened to her.
There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Did Casey cover something up? Yes.
CINDY ANTHONY: I just screamed at her. I said, "What the hell are you talking about?" I said, "What do you mean you haven`t seen Caylee?" It`s the same thing with what happened with George. He didn`t change overnight all of a sudden; something triggered him to go start gambling.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Shut up. I`m talking. I am talking.
I just couldn`t deal with this anymore. I tried to commit suicide. I tried to take my life because I just couldn`t deal with the loss of Caylee anymore. I blamed her for Caylee not being here.
DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL": You blamed her then and you blame her today?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, sir, I do. I do.
MCGRAW: You all disagree about that?
GEORGE ANTHONY: We do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But do they agree to disagree, or are they torn apart by this? Jaw-dropping new theories straight from the mouths of the parent of the most hated woman in America; round two of George and Cindy Anthony`s head-to-head interview with Dr. Phil, the good doctor laying into Casey`s parents even as they disagreed with each other.
But the most stunning revelation: George finally gives his take on what happened -- he believes -- to precious little Caylee. A new theory, one we have not heard before, check it out from today`s "Dr. Phil".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I blame my daughter for Caylee not being here today.
MCGRAW: So you feel in this situation you lost two parts of your family. You lost Casey and Caylee.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I lost Caylee three years ago and I believe I lost Casey at the same time. I believe that. She`s responsible.
MCGRAW: You believe she was in the woods burying that baby?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I believe she was there and I also believe she probably had some help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Incredible. George is now alleging Casey had help when she disposed of her daughter`s body; ironic because Jose Baez had accused George of covering up the accidental drowning of little Caylee. Now George is sort of giving him a taste of his own medicine saying well, somebody else covered it up. He doesn`t know who that somebody else is or what motive this mystery person might have had.
Mark Eiglarsh, if there was really a mystery person or two who assisted Casey in disposing of little Caylee`s body would the cops have figured this out?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Maybe. Maybe not. You know what? There was no evidence at all of it and I`m not being harsh on George or Cindy for their coming up with their theories. There`s a difference between believability and accuracy. They are free to believe and say whatever they want to believe. It doesn`t necessarily make it accurate.
I`ll tell you this, regarding Cindy and I don`t mean this in a bad way. If there was a bus load of nuns that now came forward and said we saw exactly what your daughter did, she committed first degree murder, Cindy wants to believe in her daughter`s innocence so much, she would say "Well, nuns lie."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And of course she would. But, Dr. Judy Kuriansky, my point was that there is usually a family dictator, a family enforcer who says here`s how it`s going to be family and they never say it verbally, it`s all just a nonverbal message that family members get. They`re assigned roles and they are told here`s the official story of our family and do not deviate from this script.
And it seems to me that George is deviating and he found the "Dr. Phil" show a safe place to express the truth as he sees it because Cindy said she`s never heard it from him before. Your thoughts.
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think that`s -- I think that`s a brilliant analysis as you often come up with these brilliant analyses, Jane. It`s also very true psychologically. There is what we call safety, not only in Dr. Phil, but in the whole complex and context of his show and the public.
Now the trial is over, he can say the truth. And in watching him, as you just played what he said, I actually do believe him. I think that he finally is saying what he really feels and going against the enforcer, as you said. Usually this is like a gender kind of switch here because, George is often the typically stereotypically female role here of the woman who is crying, who is feeling suicidal over all of this and instead Cindy is doing the rationalizations. Oh, it`s post-partum schizophrenia, which by the way I`m not buying and certainly all this brain disorder that she`s coming up with.
So there`s a switch here. And you`re right. Families play a role and that`s why I think they need therapy badly. I`m worried about George being suicidal again after he said this, that the anger is going to explode and the depression in that couple right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Well, here`s another reason why I think it took a lot of courage for George to say what he`s finally said. That basically everybody else on the planet came to the conclusion of three years ago that Casey is in some way responsible even though she was acquitted by a jury. But is telling the truth or coming to terms with the truth getting to him? Watch his emotional reaction on "Dr. Phil".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: And if this scenario that Casey had had told her defense about Caylee drowning why go through all this elaborate stuff to tape her up, to put her in a laundry bag, to put her in a trash bag and bury her in the woods. I can`t comprehend a human doing that, especially a daughter doing that to my granddaughter. I can`t. I can`t visualize that. I don`t want to visualize that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, it occurs to me one reason why it was courageous for George do that, remember how Cindy reacted when her own brother basically said the same thing. "Wake up your daughter is a psychopath. There`s no Zanny the nanny. You`ve been taken for a fool and she`s responsible for her granddaughter`s disappearance." And Cindy reacted by shutting out her family and just basically they were sort of dead to her after that comment, right?
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes. And, you know, there were signs of denial before Caylee died. When Casey was pregnant it was June 2005, Caylee was born on August 9th, 2005. Cindy and George brought Casey to that brother`s wedding, Rick Plesea, and he didn`t expect to see Casey. He didn`t know she was pregnant. She was seven months pregnant.
And he asked. And she said she`s not pregnant, she`s just a little bit bloated. And we saw the picture at the trial and she`s obviously pregnant and Cindy was denying it to her family. So there`s been this issue in the family before Caylee was born.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s why I say, stating the obvious is often a very courageous thing to do within family systems. I`ll give you an example. If somebody is a drunk within the family, and everybody is acting like well that`s not happening, and somebody in the family says guess what? Uncle so-and-so is a drunk. There`s often hell to pay for speaking the truth within the family system, because it`s inconvenient and nobody wants to face it. And they`ve been -- they created a system to deal with the uncle the way it is and they don`t want that system shattered because it involves a lot of work and it makes everybody get real, then it has to be messy and then there has to be tears and honesty and all that icky stuff that people don`t want to deal with.
That`s one of the reasons why people create these systems within their family where they have sort of fictional story lines about what`s really going on in their family so they can kind of keep everything moving forward without a lot of real emotion.
All this drama you`re seeing, that`s sort of I would say co-dependent addictive drama. The real drama of really facing the truth is another sort of drama that is much scarier than the addictive drama.
Louise, Tennessee, your question or thought, Louis?
LOUISE, TENNESSEE (via telephone): Yes. I was so glad to see George stand up for Caylee, and to face Cindy like he did because George, he`s been left in the dark for so long that so much has been covered up by what Casey has done. She`s been the center of attention and I think she was jealous of her little girl.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you agree with me, Louise that it took George courage to speak up and speak what he feels is the truth in front of --
(CROSSTALK)
LOUISE: Absolutely. I think everybody is proud that George is standing up for Caylee.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, ok. Jayne Weintraub, it seems like some on my panel don`t agree with what the viewers are saying, what I`m saying, what clinical psychologist Judy Kuriansky is saying?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t agree and with all due deference to Dr. Kuriansky and to you Jane. The problem with the premise is you all are acting and pre-supposing that the jury got it wrong. I don`t think the jury did get it wrong.
When you talk about George being courageous and telling the truth, I look at that contrived, smart-alecky, crying routine today without any real tears in him just in his voice. I see the mood swings of George Anthony. I don`t look at him as courageous. I look at him as a liar, a self- serving, narcissistic, egotistical liar who is deflecting from himself. That`s how I see George Anthony.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What?
WEINTRAUB: And so I don`t think it was courage. I think it was a defense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ll tell you something. On the other side of the break we`re going to hear from the other panelists who disagree with you.
Meantime we`ve got more of George and Cindy`s explosive interview just ahead and it is explosive.
But first Natalee Holloway vanished in Aruba more than six years ago and now Natalee`s father finally wants her declared dead. He has served his ex-wife who has desperately tried to find out what happened to their beautiful 17-year-old with papers seeking closure on this case. Natalee`s mother Beth released a statement saying she just learned about this and didn`t know why her ex-husband was filing this petition. A hearing is scheduled for next week and, of course, we will keep you posted on that story.
But first, more George and Cindy from Dr. Phil. What do you think about the Anthonys first post-trial interview? I want to hear from you, 1- 877-586-7297. Call me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
MCGRAW: When they opened the trunk there was garbage in there and trash in there and in fact there was something that had maggots growing on it.
CINDY ANTHONY: It was pretty strong. I mean I use that expression, you know, "What died?"
MCGRAW: When they went to pick the car up, and George walked up to the car, the smell was overwhelming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did have an affair with George.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: When Casey was eight years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately and it escalated. And it escalated.
GEORGE ANTHONY: To get through this I need to have something inside of me to get through this.
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED FOR MURDER OF DAUGHTER: Can someone let me - - come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unbelievable interview. George and Cindy on "Dr. Phil", and in day two, George appears to be having some kind of a break through, speaking his mind. Disagreeing with his wife who many believe remains in denial and is behaving as a co-dependent enabler, justifying and rationalizing her daughter`s behavior.
George is now saying that he thinks Caylee was sedated and accidentally died but in the course of being sedated by somebody and he believes her body was in Casey`s car. Listen carefully to Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I believe that Casey or someone else that she was with possibly gave too much to Caylee. She fell asleep and didn`t wake up. That`s what I feel.
MCGRAW: Gave too much what?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Possibly some keep of drug or something like that. I mean there`s speculation about Xanax or whatever it maybe or we talked this chloroform and it was never ever proven. That`s another reason her and I we don`t agree on some things. That`s why I believe that she was possibly in the back of that car. I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Again, this is huge. George is denying the drowning defense and now saying that he believes his granddaughter died after being sedated and makes a reference, Joe Episcopo, to the, well, unusually large concentration of chloroform that cops say was found in the trunk of the car and, of course, the prosecution believes that Casey Anthony used chloroform to knock her daughter out so she can go party and ultimately they believe that she used to it kill her daughter although she was found not guilty of all serious charges. Your thoughts, Joe?
JOE EPISCOPO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, you think this is exciting. I got a scoop on tomorrow`s interview. First of all, Phil is going to read everybody`s horoscope. Then Phil`s going to pull out a Ouija board and find out what happened to Caylee. Finally he`ll read the tarot cards and everybody`s going to feel good about --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what. Jay Leno, you are not. Ok. Nobody is laughing. It`s not funny. All right. You know what?
I just think that is really an immature -- with all due respect, I love you Joe, we sat next to each other during the trial -- but that`s an immature reaction. There are significant things going on here. I find it very odd that you and Mark Eiglarsh, Mark --
Mark: I`m going to defend him. I`m going to defense him and I`ll tell you why. And again I`m not going to speak for him. I`m going to say that we`re watching this interview to try to come to some understanding because we didn`t get it from the trial as to how this took place. And trying to invest emotions and energy into what George and Cindy think is like getting parenting tips from octomom. Who cares? It doesn`t help us.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what? I think it`s a cop out Mark to say "who cares". We are all diving into this subject --
Mark: It has no value, Jane.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you something. It does have value if we give it meaning by understanding what`s going on in the family dynamics, and learning from it. Again, I have to repeat. This is not the only dysfunctional family in America and we can learn because we`re all exhibiting similar patterns in a far less dramatic fashion. There are many pacts between parents about their children`s behavior. There is the old my dog doesn`t have fleas syndrome when parents cannot believe their kids are drug addicts or going out and being promiscuous.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So many families in America are in complete denial about the real behavior of their kids.
Mark: We got that. But how much closer --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on. One at a time.
Mark: How much closer do we get -- I got with you that part. How much closer do we get to understanding specifically how this all went down by listening to George and Cindy opine as to what they think happened. There`s a bias. There`s an interest. There`s a motive. It`s almost no value.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I think there`s tremendous value to see George come in to his own, and really break the family`s rules. And I want to go to Victoria --
WEINTRAUB: Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Go ahead.
WEINTRAUB: Jane, in your hypothetical about going to the principal with the brother and the safety net I get that. But when you come out in reality the brother beats the younger kid up. So let`s see what happens in the aftermath of this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s why Dr. Judy said that he`s in a danger zone emotionally because we don`t know what`s happening in their house as he goes home and has to face the fall out of Cindy saying, "What the heck did you say on Dr. Phil? Why did you do that?"
And who knows? Now, she said she wasn`t angry. She said she accepted him but that`s what she`s saying on national television. That she accepted his opinion. They agreed to disagree. Do they really?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGRAW: My question was how do you go from what you described as just a normal happy child, cheerleader, all these things to someone that could do that and I want to know what you all think there. And Cindy`s answer to that is look, I think she may have a brain tumor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: As we`ve been hearing from this amazing interview by Dr. Phil of Cindy and George exclusive, first time since the "not guilty" verdict on all serious counts for their daughter Casey, who is believed to be somewhere in Florida, although we`ve heard reports of possibly Mexico which doesn`t make a lot of sense because she`s on probation and she would be required in all probability to stay in Florida, but she may very well be watching Dr. Phil and watching us right now. We know she follows the coverage.
But Cindy, after she hears her husband deviate from the family script and say he thinks that Casey, his daughter did have something to do with his granddaughter`s death and that little Caylee was sedated, was given a chemical babysitter to knock her out so Casey can go party, here`s Cindy`s reaction to that on Dr. Phil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: This is the first time I`ve heard those words come out of his mouth.
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, I`ve said at it few different times. I believe a lot of different things that happened. I really do.
CINDY ANTHONY: You never told me your theory that you thought that Caylee was sedated. This is the first time you ever said that to me. I`m really kind of shocked hear that today.
MCGRAW: Are you upset with him for saying it?
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I`m not.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I`m just being honest. I`m being honest with my heart. That`s it.
CINDY ANTHONY: I`m not upset with him because if that`s how he feels, if he`s finally getting that out in the open I think it`s a good thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Clinical psychologist Judy Kuriansky, do you buy that Cindy is saying she`s not angry with George at all for speaking his mind --
KURIANSKY: No. It was a nice thing for her to say on TV but boy the blank is going to hit the fan at some point in that relationship, I`ll tell you.
And for the lawyers who are saying that this is not a compelling story, I agree with you Jane, this is the ongoing next installment of the soap opera because picture this. Where do you think that this couple is going to lie in bed and have good sex when the husband is saying my daughter was responsible in some way for the death of our granddaughter and the mother is saying, no, let me come up with excuses? She has postpartum schizophrenia and brain disorder and all these other things. That`s not good for a relationship.
That`s something that couples are fascinated by. How in the world can you agree to disagree about a huge issue like this? So it is the example of an unhealthy relationship, and dysfunctional families that everybody would be compelled to watch.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think you put it very well. Victoria, Texas, your question or thought Victoria?
VICTORIA, TEXAS (via telephone): yes. I think George and his whole family they have deep family secrets that go way back. And all I can say is where is the father of Caylee in all this? He`s never come out. They`ve never even mentioned who the father would be. And George is saying, you know, he`s incriminating himself by making all those statements on Dr. Phil today or whenever he made them, and there`s obviously family secrets there. There`s too much going on. He knows too much.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me tell you this. You represent what most Americans have said. They did studies of Twitter and Facebook, found out Americans don`t trust George.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to thank my fantastic panel for some healthy debate and some incredible insight and now from "Dr. Phil", Cindy`s summation, if you will.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I prayed during the whole trial that God would give me closure and if Casey was responsible for Caylee`s death that Casey would go to jail and be punished. And when that verdict came in and Casey was free I got my answer that it was an accident. And I believe that justice for Caylee was when her mother walked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We might not agree with Cindy but we do have to have compassion for her. Who knows how we would behave if we were in her shoes faced with really an impossible situation, divided loyalties.
"NANCY GRACE" is up next.
END
