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Interview with Anders Borg; Report from European Finance Ministers' Meeting; When the Euro Was Young; Palestinian Statehood Bid; Interview with Imad Moustapha; Rugby World Cup 2011; Revolutionary Troops Encounter Resistance in Sirte; Negotiations With Niger for Gadhafi's Son Fail; Difficulty Capturing World's Most Wanted War Criminals; The Search For Moammar Gadhafi; Quelling Toxic Football Rivalry; Racism and Sports Fans; Eye on Poland: Cosmetic Queen; iReporter Shares Polish Road Trip

Aired September 16, 2011 - 16:00   ET


MAX FOSTER, HOST: Come together -- America tells Europe to stop the bickering and act to save the Eurozone.

But as the debt crisis deepens, it is time for China to come to the rescue?

Plus, as fighting rages in Gadhafi's birthplace, we'll ask just where is the colonel himself?

And a hammering by their hosts -- the All Blacks leave Japan reeling at the Rugby World Cup.

These stories and more tonight as we connect the world.

The call for unity heard around the world -- U.S. Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner says it's time to work together to tame the escalating debt crisis. He was appealing for one voice during Friday's big meeting of Eurozone finance chiefs in Poland.

The two day gathering of Europe's Economic and Financial Affairs Council in Wroclaw is expected to focus on how to handle Greece's crushing debt. It's been stirring turmoil in the global financial markets for months now.

My colleague, Jim Boulden, caught up with Sweden's finance minister and asked for his take on Geithner's views and the growing crisis.



I think we are in a very difficult situation. There is a -- a debt storm riding over Europe. And -- and we need to see some progress, because this is a major issue for the whole world economy.

And I think he -- he argued very strongly on -- on that case.

JIM BOULDEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Does that mean stimulus in Europe, because that's not what you're doing?

BORG: Well, I mean, basically it means solving the debt crisis. That has, to some extent, actually, to deal with full implementation of -- 100 percent implementation of -- of the -- the fiscal problem that has been put forward, but also solving the long-term debt sustainability of a country such as Greece.


FOSTER: All right. We are live right now from the ECOFIN meeting in Poland.

CNN's Fionnuala Sweeney joins us from there -- quite a day, Fionnuala, in the end.

FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN ANCHOR: Well, yes, but as -- there is another day to go tomorrow, so, really, there is going to be quite some deliberations about where this is going. I mean everybody agrees that needs to be greater economic governance. We heard this from Jean-Claude Trichet of the ECB earlier in the day, saying that we're in very demanding times. This everybody knows.

But, really, the issue here is the Americans are extremely concerned that Europe is falling behind in trying to get to grips to the -- with this crisis.

Now, the word on everybody's mind, but not necessarily spoken out loud too often was Greece and will, of course, Greeks default.

And what we heard is that there will be a package or at least some deal or agreement reached among the EU members by the end of September.

But essentially, another issue that is on the table here is collateral, that if more money is to be given to Greece, will Finland and Slovakia agree with the other countries not have a collateral?

They want to see Greece issue some kind of guarantee that if they default again, that there will be some kind of compensation. And that really is an issue now that is stirring the minds of all of the finance ministers, including the Slovakian finance minister.


IVAN MIKLOS, SLOVAKIAN FINANCE MINISTER: This is, I think, on one side, natural, because we have the European Union is not one state. It is the union of the 27 states and the Euro Group is the union of the -- the currency union of -- the monetary union of the 17 states. Which means it is -- I mean a special situation. And in this regard, it is natural.

On the other side, of course, it is a necessity to have, I mean, a more flexible and a more -- a more unified approach. That's true.


SWEENEY: A more flexible and more unified approach.

To that end, Poland, which currently holds the chair of the EU presidency, saying today that it had reached a compromise agreement that might allow, in the future, the European Union and its parliament to work faster in reacting to this situation that it now finds itself in -- Max.

FOSTER: Fionnuala, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us from Poland then.

So that's what's happening as we speak.

But context is everything here, especially when you're nine years old and already saddled with loads of baggage. That's the gloomy state of the euro.

It wasn't always this way.

Here's Richard Quest in 2002, when the euro, like so many of us, was young.


RICHARD QUEST, HOST, "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS": Where the problems, of course, will really come, is in everyday buying. For example, every Frenchman knows the price of a baguette.

Un baguette, s'il vous plait.

It's around 6.1 French francs.

But what on earth is that --

Don la gargote (ph), s'il vous plait.

(voice-over): It's nine years since I watched the launch of euro notes and coins. January the 1st, 2002.

Back then, it really was out with the old, in with the new. For those in the Eurozone, it was a momentous occasion. For three years prior to this, the euro had been an official currency for banks and businesses and the financial markets. Suddenly, it belonged in 300 million people's pockets.


QUEST: Twelve countries agreed to make the euro their money, saying adios, au revoir, ciao to the liras, francs, deutschmarks and pesetas.

Just three countries -- the U.K., Sweden and Denmark -- decided to stay out of the single currency.

Greece was initially excluded because of its weak economy. It was allowed to join the club two years later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mortgage rates will be better because of the (INAUDIBLE). Our interest rate will go down to get similar to the French and the German one.

QUEST: The job of setting interest rates to maintain price stability, that was given to the European Central Bank, in Frankfurt, headed by Wim Duisenberg.

WIM DUISENBERG, FORMER ECB PRESIDENT: I am sure the Europeans, and not only the Europeans, will love the euro.

QUEST: The euro was sold as an exclusive club, the promised economic growth and prosperity.

DUISENBERG: The euro is much more than just a currency. It is a symbol of European integration in every sense of the word.

QUEST: Over the years that followed, the Eurozone has continued to grow. And, as close to Jean-Claude Trichet, just last week, has delivered its promise on prices.


JEAN-CLAUDE TRICHET, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK: We have delivered price stability over the first 12 years or 13 years of the euro, impeccably, impeccably.


QUEST: But nothing can escape the fact the cracks are just about everywhere. The sovereign debt crisis, the failing banks and the bailouts. And as for the rest, that, they say, is history.

How many countries will be in the euro in 10 years?

Richard Quest, CNN, London.


FOSTER: Well, in Poland tonight, Tim Geithner and his European counterpart are trying to change that recent history, working to put Greece and the wider economies on the right track again.

CNN's Fareed Zakaria says the real problem, though, it Italy, not Greece.

He joins me now from CNN's New York bureau.

Thanks so much for joining us, Fareed.

Now, just before we talk about Italy, I just want to ask you what you make of the significance of Geithner being at this meeting. Is this -- is this America lending its support to Europe or, actually, America coming to the rescue?

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": Well, the image does suggest America coming to the rescue. But, unfortunately, we're all out of bullets, as well. So it's really, I think, Tim Geithner going to Europe to emphasize how serious this is and how dangerous it is.

Remember, the United States and Europe are each other's largest trading partners. So anything that happens in Europe is going to have a monumental effect on American -- on the American economy and vice versa.

I think it's Geithner saying if you guys don't get your act together, we're all going to suffer.

FOSTER: And do you think he's concerned about the fact that everyone is focused on Greece right now, but actually, it's what happens after Greece that's the problem.

Are we losing our focus here by focusing on Greece?

ZAKARIA: Well, we have to focus on Greece because Greece is the immediate problem.

But the point I was trying to make is we -- Europe has the money to bail out Greece and they can do it in a number of different ways. You can recapitalize banks. You can roll over the debt.

But then we get to Italy and Spain, and particularly Italy. If you look at the Italian problem, it's just enormous. Greece is a nano-state. It's 2 percent of Euro -- of the Eurozone GDP. Italy is, you know, one of the 10 largest economies in the world. Its outstanding debt is larger than that of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Ireland put together. And all of it, 600 billion euros of it needs to be rolled over it the next two years.

Even the Germans don't have that kind of money.

FOSTER: The Germans don't have that kind of money. You said America has run out of bullets.

Who is going to save the global economy then?

Who's going to lend support to a country like Italy, if that's needed?

ZAKARIA: Well, there is, of course, one place that is awash in cash, and that is China. There's actually -- beyond China, there is about $10 trillion of foreign exchange reserves sitting around in the world. It's China. It's Japan, Saudi Arabia, Brazil. And what I think needs to happen is some of that money needs to come to the rescue of the indebted countries of the world.

This is very similar to what happened after World War I, when Europe, battered by the war and -- and deeply in debt, turned to America, except this time America is -- has got its own monumental debt problems.

The only country that can seriously help would be China leading a consortium of these new emerging market countries. It could be done through the IMF.

But, you know, Henry Paulson said, when he confronted his crisis in 2008, the Lehman Brothers crisis, he said you need a bazooka to square markets, meaning a big gun. Only the Chinese have a bazooka today. So we'll all have to learn what -- what the word bazooka means, you know, how do you say bazooka in Chinese?

FOSTER: And it would be a huge moment, wouldn't it, in political history, if they did get involved on that level?

They have been buying some European bonds to stabilize economically.

But do you think there is the -- the political will in China to -- to enter the global stage on that level?

ZAKARIA: Absolutely. So far, what the Chinese have been doing, as you say, is buying a -- a small amount of debt, largely for economic reasons. They want to diversity out of the -- of the dollar and they're finding some cheap opportunities with European debt.

This would be a political decision. This would be a Chinese decision that they are responsible stakeholders in the global system, they have a vested interest in ensuring the stability of Europe and, therefore, the global economy.

So far, they haven't thought in those broader terms. They tend to be very narrow, protecting China's interests narrowly speaking. What they need to understand is given their power, given the amount of cash they have, they need to think about a broader issue, which is the whole world economy goes down. If we get -- go into a second global recession, it certainly isn't going to spare China.

FOSTER: And, finally, Fareed, can I just ask you, briefly, this euro crisis, we've been talking about it for a very long time.

But could you try and put it into context for us?

How serious is it for the global economy?

ZAKARIA: Oh, I think it's very serious because Europe is, you know, Europe is the second largest economy in the world, in some sense, the largest economy in the world. If you put it all together, it's larger than the American economy.

Credit would freeze up in just the way it froze up after Lehman Brothers. It can get more serious.

I think it's also worth pointing out why is this happening?

This is happening because all growth forecasts coming out of Europe, coming out of the United States, are much lower than we thought. And that means deficits get larger.

You see, when you don't grow as fast as you thought you were going to grow, you have less tax revenues and the government has to pay out more in the form of unemployment insurance and such. And that's what's happening in almost all the cases we're looking at.

So the basic problem in the Western world is we just don't have much growth. And that suggests that this is a long-term problem, even if we get through this crisis by patching things together in some way or the other, you still face the reality that we're simply not growing very fast.

FOSTER: Fareed Zakaria, I really appreciate your time.

Thank you very much, indeed.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, Max.

FOSTER: And you won't want to miss Fareed's interview with General Electric's chairman, Jeffrey Immelt. It's a -- it's a really good watch. He's also President Obama's jobs star, so he's under plenty of pressure to produce results. Fareed will ask him all about it. And that's on Sunday night, 9:00 p.m. U.K. time, on "GPS," airing on CNN International.

You are watching CONNECT THE WORLD.

Still to come, the stage is set for a showdown at the United Nations. The Palestinians want a seat, but the U.S. is resisting.

How will this diplomatic row unfold?

That story in around two minutes.

Then, the All Blacks dominate -- we'll bring you the latest from the Rugby World Cup in 10 minutes.

And Libya's new rulers still facing resistance, as the countries' former dictator remains elusive. In the next 20 minutes, we'll ask where could Gadhafi be?


FOSTER: I'm Max Foster in London.

You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD.

Here's a look at other stories we're following for you this hour.

Mahmoud Abbas says Palestinians are the only people in the world still living under occupation and it's time for that to end.

Today, the Palestinian president laid to rest any doubts about his intentions at the United Nations next week. He says he'll take the bid for Palestinian statehood to the Security Council, the only U.N. body that can bestow full membership rights.


MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRESIDENT (through translator): We are going now to the United Nations to claim our legitimate right to become a full member of the United Nations, as the state of Palestine. We will take with us as a Palestinian delegation, all the suffering and pains of our people in order to achieve this goal and to end the prejudice -- the historical prejudice against our people.


FOSTER: Well, that strategy sets up a major diplomatic confrontation, as the United States has repeatedly warned it will use its veto.

Let's bring in our senior U.N. correspondent, Richard Roth -- Richard, are we going to have, at this U.N. meeting, the U.S. and Israel on one side and the rest of the world on the other?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, because of the way the Palestinian leader put it, you may not have much drama before Friday, when the Palestinian leader says he's going to present the formal Palestinian application to the U.N. secretary general, which is, according to the U.N. rules, the way it's supposed to be.

But the Palestinian statehood issue will overshadow the overall high level summit here. It will just be one of the many trouble spots for the United States to have to worry about.

The Palestinian issue of statehood has been looming on the horizon for months and everyone knew it was coming.

There's still a lot of wiggle room here and maneuvering, whether the Palestinians, indeed, will live up to the words of their leader and, indeed, go the Security Council route, because the U.S. has vowed there will be a veto waiting for the Palestinians and their symbolic chair, which arrived at U.N. headquarters yesterday and was paraded in front of the Security Council and given to the General Assembly president.

A State Department spokesman today, Max, in Washington said the focus should be and negotiations in the region. Anything else is "counter- productive," quote, to the real focus, which should be direct negotiations between the parties.

That remains the U.S. goal, the U.S. priority.

The U -- they would need the Palestinians' nine votes in favor even without the veto in the Security Council. Our guess is they would achieve that. There certainly would be a lot of U.S. pressure on some of these other governments. No timing yet on when this issue would be considered at the full Security Council table, after all these world leaders leave town - - Max.

FOSTER: In terms of the U.N. Security Council, then, I guess they've got another big issue to discuss, as well, and that is Libya.

What are they deciding there?

ROTH: The Security Council just passed a resolution which establishes an interim mission, a U.N. operations system in Libya to come to the aid of this new government. The General Assembly, first, this morning in New York, had to approve the credentials of the Libyan former rebels, who have now claimed the leadership of the country after four decades of Gadhafi regime rule. And it was not also that smooth, either.

Venezuela and Cuba, Nicaragua, other countries said this shouldn't be allowed to happen. There were 17 countries that opposed. They were outvoted in a procedural maneuver. And the Libyans, led by the NTC, are now in possession of the Libyan seat. And it was interesting to watch former Gadhafi deputy U.N. Ambassador Dabbashi inside the Security Council chamber just minutes ago, when the Security Council approved the mission. It was in February when he stunned journalists, including myself, in New York, on a cold Monday morning, by saying, oh, there will be news. And in the lobby of the mission where -- the Libyan mission where Gadhafi's photo is, hangs all over the place, he said that -- he denounced what Gadhafi was doing to his own people and several diplomats there left. And some will be playing a role in this new government back home, probably -- back to you, Max.

FOSTER: Richard at the U.N.

Thank you.

Now, UBS trader, Kweku Adoboli, has been charged with fraud and false accounting. The London court said on Friday the 31 -year-old will remain in police department until his bail hearing next Thursday. The investigators say Adoboli is accused of losing UBS $2 billion in unauthorized trading.

Credit rating agency, Moody's, has said it's looking at a possible downgrade now of the Swiss bank.

Human rights activists tell CNN at least 36 people were killed across Syria during pro-democracy protests today. This amateur video is said to show a demonstration in Baza (ph). That's a suburb of Damascus.

The government won't allow CNN to report inside the country, but the Syrian ambassador to the U.S. did agree to an exclusive interview with our Hala Gorani.

He blasted what he called the Western media's massive campaign of disinformation and lies.


IMAD MOUSTAPHA, SYRIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Not a single person died today in Syria except one policeman that was shot.

GORANI: Well, we would love to be able to go check for ourselves, but we can't --


GORANI: -- because we're not given visas to go report from inside Syria.

MOUSTAPHA: You were given a visa and you did report.

GORANI: For one week --

MOUSTAPHA: You know that.

GORANI: -- in June.


GORANI: But since, we have not been able to do that.

MOUSTAPHA: OK. Many other reporters have been reporting from inside Syria. And there are foreign reporters. But here is the story. You asked me a question. You need to hear the answer.

GORANI: Sure. Go ahead.

MOUSTAPHA: People -- people give numbers in -- in -- in a very, very unrealistic way. Those numbers are never substantiated, because this is what suits the Western media here. At least, out of the list that was announced by the so-called activists in Syria, that -- of the -- the -- the killed people, 500 -- at least 500 have come out and said we -- we read our names in the -- in the lists of the killed and the fallen, we are alive and kicking. These are blatant lies.

This is the problem we are facing today in Syria -- a massive campaign of disinformation and lies.

GORANI: OK, again, I need to ask you, if we cannot go in and substantiate these numbers -- prove them or disprove them, in fact -- how can we -- who can we believe?

Why won't the government let us in?

MOUSTAPHA: You were invited.

Did you report a single story about the atrocities and the massacres committed by the so-called --


MOUSTAPHA: -- per -- peaceful protesters?

GORANI: I was invited in but --

MOUSTAPHA: If you --

GORANI: -- not allowed to circulate --

MOUSTAPHA: -- credibly --

GORANI: -- inside of Syria.

MOUSTAPHA: Historically --

GORANI: Yes --

MOUSTAPHA: -- unprecedented brutality that is being committed right now in Syria against innocent people, against civilians, against policemen and against the Syrian military never reported, never. And even when we provide you with evidence, we give you videotapes, we ask you to interview their families to substantiate the stories, the Western media --

GORANI: That --

MOUSTAPHA: -- categorically refuses to --

GORANI: -- I have to say --

MOUSTAPHA: -- air this.

GORANI: -- that's not true at all. We have reported on the deaths of security forces. And we know that a number of the people who have been killed over the last several months have been security forces. But a large number have also been civilians, demonstrators, pro-democracy activists and children.


FOSTER: Hopes of finding any survivors in a Welsh mining tragedy have been dashed. Rescue workers recovered the body of the fourth missing man at the Gleision Mine near Swansea on Friday. The miners were trapped more than 90 meters underground after water flooded a shaft on Thursday morning.

Former Beatle, Paul McCartney, has posted his wedding notice with the London Registry Office. He'll marry New York heiress, Nancy Shevell exactly where he married his first wife, Linda, more than 40 years ago. The couple are expected to tie the knot next month.

You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD.

Coming up this hour, the All Blacks pummel Japan at the Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. We'll look ahead to the weekend matches, along with the rest of the day's sports news for you.



FOSTER: In case you're wondering, that was LEGO'S contribution to the Rugby World Cup, where the host nation, New Zealand, has secured another stunning win. The brave Blossoms didn't stand a chance against the mighty All Blacks. They were -- they were beaten 83 points to 7 in Hamilton.

New Zealand wasted no time in opening the scoring with center Conrad Smith grabbing the game's first tryout at just three minutes. It was pretty much all for Japan from then, with the All Blacks scoring, on average, every six minutes.

Pedro Pinto joins us.

I mean they weren't ever going to win, were they, Japan?

But that was a slaughtering.

PEDRO PINTO, CNN "WORLD SPORT" ANCHOR: No. You know, the last time they met, New Zealand beat Japan 145-17. That was back in 1995.

I'm not going to move on until I make one comment about that LEGO Haka, because that was awesome. I played with LEGOS.

FOSTER: That's very good.

PINTO: You know (INAUDIBLE). Amazing. Amazing.


PINTO: There they are.

There they are.

FOSTER: Give us a bit of commentary on this, Pedro.

PINTO: That -- those are some great faces that they have painted on there.

FOSTER: Strange hair, but great faces.

PINTO: Anyway, let me tell you about the -- the real Haka and the real New Zealand that -- that beat the brave Blossoms of -- of Japan.

I mean it wasn't -- it wasn't close. We weren't expecting it to be. But they scored -- 11 different players scored tries. And after the opening win against Tonga, Max, the high expectations of the crowd really weren't met. The -- the coach, Graham Henry, he decided to rest a couple of key players, Richie McCaw and Dan Carter for this match. He was criticized for that.

But he said wait a minute, these guys are really injured, I'm saving them for the next match against France.

So, you know, it is going to be a soap opera with New Zealand out there, because this is their national sport. Their passion for rugby is like Brazil's passion for football.

FOSTER: Particularly at the moment. They must be going crazy.

PINTO: Yes, it's nuts there. Everywhere you go, you see pictures of -- of people doing the Haka and celebrating the rugby, no matter if they're five or they're 95. It's absolutely amazing.

I did want to -- to -- to bring up some big matches coming up --

FOSTER: Yes, let's have a look at the weekend.

PINTO: -- this weekend.

FOSTER: England's game, that's what we really care about.

PINTO: Yes, like you guys have a chance.

Anyway -- just joking. You do have a chance.

The big games for this weekend are Australia against Ireland. I'm looking forward to that because both teams won their opening matches in -- in the competition.

England, as you mentioned, are facing Georgia.

Wales and Samoa.

And another match, South Africa -- they're also in action. They're playing against Fiji.

So plenty of games to look forward to this weekend, Max.

A very exciting tournament.

I will say good-bye, because I know you have no time.

The last thing, I want to tease for "WORLD SPORT" in about an hour's time is the latest on the Davis Cup semi-finals.

And also, Usain Bolt clocked a very fast time, indeed.

All the details coming up.

FOSTER: Good stuff.

Pedro, thank you very much, indeed.

Coming up on CONNECT THE WORLD, meanwhile, where is Moammar Gadhafi? We'll discuss the world's biggest manhunt with a former legal adviser to the -- to the Libyan government. That's in eight minutes.

Then, quelling a toxic rivalry -- we'll explain in 15 minutes.

And in 25, meet Poland's makeover queen. See why her success is more than just cosmetic.


FOSTER: You're back with CONNECT THE WORLD on CNN, the world's news leader. Let's check the headlines this hour.

Timothy Geithner wants his European counterparts to end the bickering. The US Treasury secretary is in Poland with the euro zone's finance ministers. They're trying to get a handle on the escalating debt crisis. The two-day meeting is expected to focus on getting Greece back on track to help stabilize the global economy.

Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas says it is the legitimate right of his people to demand full membership in the United Nations. He says he'll take their statehood bid to the Security Council next week.

UBS trader Kweku Adoboli has been charged with fraud and false accounting. Investigators say Adoboli is accused of losing UBS $2 billion in unauthorized trading. A London court said on Friday the 31-year-old will remain in police custody until his bail hearing next Thursday.

The first minister of Wales if offering sympathy to the families of the four coal miners killed when their mine flooded on Thursday. Their bodies were recovered by rescue teams, who say the shaft filled with water after the men broke through to a neighboring abandoned mine.

The United Nations General Assembly has given Libya's new rulers a seat at the table, granting them official recognition today. Later, the Security Council eased sanctions on Libya and set up a mission to help the interim government.

Those are the headlines this hour.

Libya's new rulers can certainly claim victory on the world stage, yet they still haven't dealt the final blow to the Gadhafi loyalists, much less found the former strong man himself.

Their fighters are now trying to crush all remaining resistance, launching offensives to clear the three major Gadhafi strongholds.

Anti-Gadhafi fighters have attacked Bani Walid and Sirte, the former leader's hometown, but were pushed back by heavy resistance. Fighters are also converging on Sabha in the far south of the country.

Let's get more now on the battle for Sirte, where things didn't go exactly as planned today for the anti-Gadhafi fighters. Phil Black has details on that for us. Hi, Phil.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Max. Yes, well, when we traveled into Sirte with the revolutionary fighters this morning, they told us we'd be watching a few hours of easy fighting and by the end of it, Gadhafi's birthplace would be theirs.

But it didn't work out that way at all. When they moved into the built-up areas, they encountered very heavy resistance from some seemingly well-prepared Gadhafi loyalists. It became a very desperate urban battle, battling street to street, building to building in some instances.

And the rebel leaders tell us that they just weren't prepared for this sort of encounter. They weren't prepared for it, they didn't want it.

They also thought something else would happen. They thought that the population of the city would rise up and in -- and support their side. But that didn't happen, either.

So, in the end, the revolutionary fighters made some progress into the city, but their goal was to control it within a few hours. By the end of the day, they still hadn't done that.

It was still not safe so, come darkness, they had no choice but to pull back to its perimeter, which is where we are now.

They say they're going to have another go tomorrow, but they hope desperately that they will get some support from the civilian population when they try again.

It didn't happen today. We don't know if that's simply because the civilian population doesn't want to help the revolution, or because they're afraid to. Max?

FOSTER: Phil, thank you.

Now, capturing Moammar Gadhafi is their top priority, but Libya's new rulers also want his sons in custody. Today, their effort to convince Niger to return Saadi Gadhafi failed.

A government spokesman said Niger believes Gadhafi's son would have no chance of receiving a fair trial and could face the death penalty. Saadi fled to Niger last weekend, along with other top Gadhafi loyalists.

Now, Libyan fighters could find Moammar Gadhafi hiding out in one of his last remaining strongholds. Then again, maybe not. If history's any guide, it can sometimes take years to hunt down the world's most wanted fugitives.

The hunt for Osama bin Laden kicked off into high gear after the 9/11 attacks, but it wasn't until this May, nearly ten years later, that the US finally caught up with the al Qaeda leader, killing him in that deadly raid on his compound in Pakistan.

A US-led coalition ousted Iraqi president Saddam Hussein in 2003, but it was more than eight months before the bedraggled former dictator was finally found hiding in a spider hole. Hussein was eventually tried and hanged.

The so-called Butcher of Bosnia, Radovan Karadzic, was indicted for war crimes in 1995. He went on the run, changing his appearance, grew a long beard, and then wasn't captured until 2008, 13 years later. Karadzic is now on trial at the Hague.

We've heard speculation come and go about where Moammar Gadhafi might be. Are Libyan fighters even close, though, to capturing him? Let's bring in Saad Djebbar, he is a former legal adviser to Gadhafi's government.

You can offer us some insight, hopefully. I mean, where do you think Gadhafi would have gone as a -- as a natural response when all of this started happening?

SAAD DJEBBAR, FORMER LEGAL ADVISER TO LIBYAN GOVERNMENT: With everything Gadhafi, I would be very stupid if I think Gadhafi is in Libya. He will be in the Sabha county, so otherwise in Mali, Niger, or Chad. That --


FOSTER: Would he have slipped away as soon as --

DJEBBAR: No, I think --

FOSTER: -- Tripoli was in trouble?

DJEBBAR: -- I don't think. He's so paranoid, he's so clever, he's so practical, I don't think that he would allow himself to stay in Tripoli or in Libya. He would be in a country where he couldn't be reached. In other words, Algeria, Mali, Chad, or Niger.

FOSTER: Niger. We were hearing earlier about how Niger won't hand over his son to the NTC. What's -- are there agreements between these countries and Gadhafi, would you say?

DJEBBAR: Forget about the agreements. Gadhafi has -- invests so much money, so much social relationships with those countries for many years, without thinking that he would be toppled. I can't imagine that Niger or any other country would even -- including Algeria.

If I was of the Algerian president, I would never give up the family of Gadhafi.

FOSTER: Just for the money?

DJEBBAR: It has nothing to do with money. There are tribal, cultural, social culture, which wouldn't allow you if someone -- remember who toppled Taliban didn't give up Osama bin Laden? So much so that the region was toppled in Afghanistan without giving up bin Laden.

FOSTER: But Niger, for example, is arguing that this is simply because they don't -- it's on principle. They don't want to send Saadi Gadhafi back to Libya because he'll face the death penalty, and they don't -- other countries would have a similar view, wouldn't they, if it was someone else?

DJEBBAR: Listen. The best way for Libya, the west for the Libyan people and the country as a whole, is to see where Gadhafi is.

Once Gadhafi -- if we know Gadhafi's in Algeria, in Niger, or anywhere else, it's better than when you don't know for the mere fact that once you know where Gadhafi is, that very country, if it's Algeria, Niger, Mali, or Chad, they will constrain his acts and they will stop and they will cage him not to allow any action which might undermine the security of the country as a whole.

FOSTER: But if a --

DJEBBAR: So it's better that --

FOSTER: But if --

DJEBBAR: -- we know where Gadhafi is. If he's in any country, it's better that -- it will be easy to cage Gadhafi and to restrict his own actions.

FOSTER: I was speaking to the British foreign secretary recently, saying -- and he was saying that if any country was found to have Gadhafi on their soil, that the amount of diplomatic pressure on that country would be huge from the West A lot of very powerful countries. They wouldn't be able to survive that pressure, would they?

Would they keep protecting Gadhafi against pressure from the US and Europe?

DJEBBAR: That is true. If that very country has an extradition treaty, like if he's in Algeria, Mali, Chad, or Niger. If we have extradition treaty with Libya, it will be easy to extradite these people.

But I don't think that is the issue. The issue is, let's see where Gadhafi is. The -- once we know where Gadhafi is, we can reel in and trace his action.

What is the most important thing is that we should not allow Gadhafi to be active in any way so that he can be free to undermine the new system in Libya.

FOSTER: OK, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us today. I really appreciate your time.

Still to come on CONNECT THE WORLD, the football chants that could be banned. We'll head to Scotland where the government is stepping in to quell long-running club rivalry. Find out why in just a few minutes.


FOSTER: Devoted fans, weekly pilgrimages, it is often said that football is a religion. That's certainly the case in Scotland, it seems. Sectarian differences have long come into play between two rival clubs, so much so that a new law has been proposed that bans fans from singing offensive songs.

Ben Wyatt traveled to Glasgow ahead of one their infamous matches.


BEN WYATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There are few games in world football that have the passion of the Old Firm, a clash that sees the Gaswegian giants of Celtic and Rangers go head to head over 90 minutes.

WYATT (voice-over): But it's not just a football match. It's a rivalry of local politics, too.

GRAHAM SPIERS, SCOTTISH FOOTBALL WRITER, "THE TIMES": You basically have tension between two communities, the Irish Catholic community, which came to Scotland in the 19th century with a big immigration because of the Irish Potato Famine, and the indigenous Scottish Protestant community forming the other.

And then the two totem images of these communities, Celtic football club on the one side, Rangers football club on the other, became magnets for the extremists on both sides, and the Old Firm fixture became a state where sectarian feelings could be expressed and hostilities could be expressed.

Rangers have been rebuked by UEFA two or three times for chants about Roman Catholics owning Scotland. Celtic have got a group of fans who chant IRA songs and all this kind of stuff. And these kinds of things cause embarrassment to Scottish society.

WYATT: Last season, the sectarian element of the clash rose to new levels when the family of Celtic's Catholic manager, Neil Lennon, were placed under 24-hour police protection after live ammunition and a parcel bomb were sent to him in the post. But Lennon remained unbowed.

NEIL LENNON, CELTIC MANAGER: I don't want to say you get used to it, because you never do. It's been with me for my time as a player, my time as a coach, and my time as a manager. But it's not going to deter me from doing what I want to do. For me, this is the greatest privilege in my life.

WYATT: The Scottish government based in Edinburgh reacted by proposing a new law for 2012 that would reduce the sectarian culture within football. Soon, the singing of offensive songs in stadiums could be a crime.

ROSEANNA CUNNINGHAM, MINISTER FOR COMMUNITY SAFETY AND LEGAL AFFAIRS: Well, the penalties are everything from a fine up to five years imprisonment at the moment, and that's what's in the bill, and obviously for us defenders, we'd be unlikely to get five years in prison, but what we want to make sure is that people understand how seriously we take this.

If you want to hear some of the songs that are being sung on all sides, some of them are absolutely appalling, and any ordinary, reasonable person would have very little hesitation in saying absolutely not. And that's what we're saying to fans is that you're being offensive in circumstances that are likely to cause public disorder.

WYATT: But where is the line drawn between an inflammatory song and a passionate chant to support your team?

JOHN MACMILLAN, GENERAL SECRETARY, RANGERS SUPPORTERS' ASSOCIATION: We are trying to get these songs defined by both the police and the Scottish parliament, and no one as yet has come up with a definitive answer to say, "Here's a list of songs you shall not sing."

WYATT: Former Celtic player Andy Walker also has fears.

ANDY WALKER, FORMER CELTIC STRIKER: All of the songs that are now deemed to be offensive, sectarian or otherwise, they were all going around when I was playing in the mid 80s, late 80s.

So, now we've come into an era where, quite frankly, a lot of people are desperate to be offended. Singing a national anthem can be offensive, so I think the new bill that has come into play certainly needs a lot of fine-tuning.

WYATT: But for those who uphold the law, the new legislation is a welcome move.

CAMPBELL CORRIGAN, ASSISTANT CHIEF CONSTABLE, STRATHCLYDE POLICE: There is no doubt in most of these things that what we're talking about is people who go to football and literally put absolutely hatred forward towards other people who are often standing a couple yards away from them.

We don't need that. There's no place in -- football should be about football and not about that.

WYATT: Meet Robert Marshall, landlord of staunch Rangers pub the Louden Tavern, and Tommy Carberry of Bairds Bar, a Celtic drinking hole that's as Irish as they come. These childhood friends represent two ends of the Old Firm's spectrum.

ROBERT MARSHALL, LANDLORD, LOUDEN TAVERN: I don't have a problem if they're banning the songs that should be banned. I do have a problem if they're trying to stop freedom of speech.

TOMMY CARBERRY, LANDLORD, BAIRDS BAR: There are no Rangers supporters that come in here at all, so there's nobody going to be offended with what is sung. And it's the same with Rangers pubs.

MARSHALL: It's just this political correctness stuff. Rangers fans and Celtic fans all grew with each other, they all go out with each other, they all marry each other. And I really don't understand what the politicians are trying to do.

CARBERRY: What's acceptable and what's not? If you're singing about your grandfather in the IRA or your grandfather that was in the UDF. If you sing that at a football match, you're going to be arrested for that.

WYATT: For some in Glasgow, the proposed law is welcome. For others, it distorts how two communities live and enjoy the Old Firm game together.

Ben Wyatt, CNN, Glasgow.


FOSTER: Well, football fans in the UK aren't the only ones who have been accused of going too far. Brazilian legend Roberto Carlos has been the victim of racist outbursts by fans. After transferring to play in Russia, he was taunted by people in the crowd because of the color of his skin, most recently in June, when a banana was thrown towards him.

But it's not just football. Australian cricketer Andrew Simon has battled racism through much of his career, from racist chants from spectators in Mumbai to even a member of the Indian cricket team allegedly calling him a monkey.

In 2008, Formula One driver Lewis Hamilton was the victim of racial abuse after some spectators in Barcelona painted their faces black and wore t-shirts with the slogan "Hamilton's family."

And in rugby, homophobic chants were hurled at openly gay player Gareth Thomas here during a match between the Crusaders and Castleford in 2010.

Let's delve into this issue of vilification in sports a little deeper, then. I'm joined now by Luther Blissett, who is the patron of the campaign Show Racism the Red Card. And Luther, realistically, what can be done about this? It's so difficult to tackle, isn't it, as a cultural problem often?

LUTHER BLISSETT, PATRON, SHOW RACISM THE RED CARD: Well, it is a difficult one to tackle, but like anything, all you've got to do is take the head off it, you know?

And for me, the authorities have got to do something. And if they can ban these chanting, and the way they ban it is to say if you continue to do this, then initially they'll say maybe somebody will get a fine or whatever. Then, they'll get a ban.

FOSTER: So police will go up to them whilst they're chanting --

BLISSETT: Well, I think that's right, yes. Because in football grounds now, they have cameras everywhere. So they can literally see the pimples on people's faces in the crowd. So they can actually identify the perpetrators of this sort of thing and remove them from the ground.

And then, if that doesn't work and it still continues, then the sanctions then obviously then turns to the club. And from the club then to the national association.

So, there are powers, and I think that they need to really explore these a lot more, and they need to be very strong on these, because it needs to stop.

FOSTER: The argument is that these chants are part of history and they just sort of -- they're part of the fabric of Scotland and the games are used to it.

BLISSETT: Yes, I hear all of that, and when I started playing football, I heard all the things about you being a black this and black that, and people said, oh, it's just a bit of banter.

But I'm the only black player -- why is it banter? Why can you be having a laugh at my expense, and that sort of thing. And this is exactly the same thing.

Just because it's something that happened in the past doesn't mean we should still continue with that now.

FOSTER: But a lot of these people making the chants, they say it's not exactly the same thing as racism. They're saying, actually, we're expressing political views a lot of the time. So, where's the line between a political view --

BLISSETT: It's a football match. It's a football match. You've got two teams playing to get -- for points. It's not about anything political at all. It's just about trying to win a football match.

FOSTER: The teams were born out of the political process, weren't they almost, though?

BLISSETT: It may have been that was the case, but it's a sport. They're supposed to be sport. And --

FOSTER: So, politics should be out of it.

BLISSETT: And politics -- when it comes to the actual playing of the game on the pitch, politics should have nothing to do with it.

Politics they can discuss it where they like in the bars and in the pubs and wherever after, but during the game, it should just be about what's going on on the pitch, and that's the only thing that it should be about.

FOSTER: So, if we go back to the policing situation, do you think when there's a huge crowd of people chanting these chants, how do you -- I mean, do -- are you going to sort of chuck out the whole group?

BLISSETT: Well, but it's usually somebody that starts it.

FOSTER: So, you're supposed to --

BLISSETT: Someone starts it, and you can usually identify it, where it started, because people sat in the crowd will say no, it's tied down there. Plus, they can see it from all the monitors.

Also, the authorities know the troublemakers. They know these sort of people, they know who they are, and so they can home in on them and keep an eye on them so they can actually single them out and then go in and they're the ones you remove first, because usually they start it and then everybody gets along with it.

It's this mob mentality, because once it starts, people that normally would not get involved with it, they sort of get onboard with it.

We find this very similar because at Show Racism the Red Card, we go to schools and we do this same sort of thing, and you get young kids who are seven and eight coming out with things that they've heard maybe their parents or maybe their brothers and sisters who are older or friends of the family have said.

Those kids -- how can a seven-year-old --

FOSTER: And that's how you're knocking on the head, isn't it?

BLISSETT: Yes, absolutely.

FOSTER: Get them young.

BLISSETT: Exactly. That's where the education side of it comes in, and that's very, very important.

FOSTER: And you've had a great deal of success. As we've just illustrated, though, it's not -- the problem hasn't gone away quite yet.

BLISSETT: No. But we've done a great deal to reduce it here in England.

FOSTER: Do you think people, though, look at the Scottish situation and that chanting and say that's completely unworkable? You're not going to get rid of this problem. Do you think looking back a few years when they said that about racism in football as well --

BLISSETT: They said that when I started playing. There's black players, and a lot of players didn't make it because they couldn't deal with that sort of thing all the time, but my thing was, this is what I want to do, and there's nobody whatsoever is going to stop me from doing it by just calling me names.

And yes, they do hurt, and we have this thing, sticks and stones, but names do hurt. They forever hurt, because whenever you think about it, that feeling that you once had comes back to you.

FOSTER: Luther Blissett, we really appreciate your time, thank you very much for joining us.

BLISSETT: Absolute pleasure.

FOSTER: Now, coming up on CONNECT THE WORLD, Poland's cosmetics queen. Meet the woman who convinces our reporter Jim Boulden to indulge in a facial. Unbelievable. That's part of our Eye on Poland series, and it's up after the break.


FOSTER: All this week, we have been turning our Eye on Poland and how the European country's making its mark on the global stage. Tonight, the lens is on the woman known as Poland's cosmetic queen. As Jim Boulden found, her company has had a stunning makeover since the fall of the Berlin Wall.


JIM BOULDEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Irena Eris is often in the lab with her employees testing what could be the next big product for Poland's biggest cosmetic label, Dr. Irena Eris.

It all began in 1983, just Eris on her own in a makeshift lab.

BOULDEN (on camera): When you started in 1983, could you imagine what you have today?

IRENA ERIS, FOUNDER, DR. IRENA ERIS COSMETICS: Never. Never. It was another time, it was not so easy to make business in those times.

BOULDEN (voice-over): Quality skincare products were not readily available in Communist Poland. But she guessed correctly, Polish women craved pampering. And at the time, Eris says, despite the confines of Communism, the government preached equality when it came to business.

Before the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, Eris had some 15 employees. But she says she could no longer grow under Communism. Under capitalism, it all changed.

ERIS: After 89, I started to think with another way.

BOULDEN: Now, it's all about service and branding to go along with cosmetics.

ERIS: You have to be better and better because our customer trusts us. Which means good brand name, yes?

BOULDEN (on camera): But Irena Eris is not just about selling cosmetics. It's also about treatments.

BOULDEN (voice-over): One big way she wants to grow the business, get Polish men to walk through the treatment door. No better time, then, for me to have my first facial.

Another talent, says Eris, selling a brand with "made in Poland" on the label. Though it's the homeland of Helena Rubinstein and Max Factor.

ERIS: We export now to seven countries, but it's not a big amount of our products. We want to be stronger and to export more.

BOULDEN (on camera): That's a big goal.

ERIS: Yes, it's a big goal. But to start, it's a very heavy job.

BOULDEN (voice-over): A hard sell outside Poland, a lot of competition at home.

ERIS: And now we have big competition on our market, all of the biggest players international contents are here. They have experience, they have money, they have tactic. And we are local -- local company.

BOULDEN (on camera): Yes. Right.

BOULDEN (voice-over): And choosing her products has made this woman's name one of the most recognizable brands inside Poland.

Jim Boulden, CNN, Warsaw.


FOSTER: Now, an expert in facials as well as business.

During our week-long Eye on Poland coverage, we've been asking you to share your images of the country with CNN's iReport.

Before we go tonight, we'd like you -- to show you some photos that Christine Rabbitt took during a two-week road trip in Poland last month. She's from the US, but her boyfriend is from Poland.

After being separated from him for two months, she says she used her college savings to book a trip to the country so she could finally see where he grew up.

Christine sent the bulk of her time on a road trip from Warsaw to Smoldzino in the north, and these images were captured as she hiked and biked her way to the Baltic.

If you have images you would like to share of Poland, do log onto and click on the iReport Poland.

I'm Max Foster, thank you so much for watching. Have a great weekend. The world headlines and "BackStory" will follow this short break.