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Dr. Drew
Millionaire Murder Trial in Second Week; Young Mother Accused of Murdering Twins
Aired September 20, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
We`ve got the latest from the millionaire murder trial, now into its second week. The defendant says his wife wanted to kill herself, but friends dispute that under oath.
And the father of the woman accused of murdering her just-born twins calls her a model daughter. Can this story get any more tragic?
Plus, could a missing witness have messed up the Conrad Murray trial?
And Stevo gets it together.
Let`s get started.
There were new twists and turns in what we`re calling the millionaire murder trial. Wealthy businessman Bob Ward is charged with second-degree murder in the death of his wife Diane.
Watch this, then we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have this wild trial, Bob Ward, this real estate mogul who is accused of shooting his wife.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Millionaire businessman. This man called 911, said at one point, "I just shot my wife." He is now on trial for murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See, Ward claims his wife Diane was trying to commit suicide and the gun went off while he was trying to take the gun away from her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The medical examiner says that doesn`t match what he saw.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You had specifically ruled out suicide?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say at the time, Ward was under investigation for allegedly taking money from his companies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He seemed to act rich, but actually he was facing bankruptcy and his wife was about to testify in his bankruptcy case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So was Bob Ward a caring husband trying to save his wife or a selfish killer?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: HLN`s Mike Galanos is covering the trial in Orlando.
Mike, what is happening today?
MIKE GALANOS, "NEWS NOW": All right, Drew.
Emotions bubbling over in the courtroom, and it started early in the day with the defendant, Bob Ward. Bankruptcy attorneys took to the witness stand, and Bob ward does not like them. They`re dissolving his business, business going down the drain.
One of the bankruptcy attorneys was asked to identify Bob Ward. Bob Ward, in an uncharacteristic fashion for a defendant, stood up in a defiant way. So much so, his own attorney had to pull him down by his coat sleeve. Emotion there.
And more emotion again as Bob Ward`s daughter, Sarah, took the stand. She began by talking about how she loved her mom, best friend, but also talked about how her mom drank. But when the prosecution said, "You weren`t in that room when your mom was shot in the face," Bob Ward pounded his fist on the desk.
The judge got the jury out of there and basically told Bob Ward`s attorney, you have got to get your client under control. That is the kind of emotion you expect.
But then the jury got to see the kind of emotion you do not expect. They replayed the tape from the holding room hours after Diane Ward is dead. And in a nonchalant fashion, he`s taking his phone, putting it on speaker, calling his brother-in-law, introducing these nice detectives back and forth, and then finally saying, "Glenn (ph), Diane is dead."
And you`re thinking, how do you do that? And every detective that saw him said he was upbeat and smiling.
So a lot of the emotions there. Really, and those emotions are what are drawing us into the case, whether they`re what you expect or what you don`t expect.
One final thing that happened. Dr. Jan Garavaglia -- we remember her as "Dr. G." from the Casey Anthony case -- she took the stand. And this is the hard evidence the prosecution is really banking on. She just said from testing, from the trajectory of the bullet, it was shot -- Diane Ward was shot from 18 inches away. There`s no way you can cock your hand from 18 inches away and shoot yourself where that bullet is going to hit the left side of your nostril.
So, some hard evidence on an emotional day in the courtroom.
Drew, back to you.
PINSKY: Thanks, Mike.
Now, when we come back, the story that has moved so many of us, the young mother accused of murdering her just-born twins. It`s just a heartbreaking story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you there to observe her demeanor?
SARAH WARD, BOB WARD`S DAUGHTER: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were not there when your mother ended up shot in the face?
WARD: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you can`t tell us what happened in the master bedroom of your parents` home?
WARD: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have nothing further.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
I think you can go ahead and bring the jury out for a moment, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rise, Jury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: One week ago, 25-year-old Lindsey Lowe was a college graduate with her whole life ahead of her. She was engaged, living with her parents, working a stable job at a dentist`s office. But that facade of normalcy came crashing down last Wednesday.
Today, she stands accused of double murder. Authorities say she suffocated her newborn twin boys moments after giving birth, and then put their bodies in a laundry basket, all after hiding her pregnancy from everyone for nine months.
This case has shocked the community and baffled those that knew this young woman. New developments are emerging, along with new questions.
Joining me from San Diego is clinical psychologist Lisa Boesky. And on the phone we have Sumner County District Attorney Ray Whitley, and Lindsey Lowe`s defense attorney, John Pellegrin.
But first, we are joined by WSMV TV`s Cynthia Williams for an update on the story.
Cynthia, her dad spoke in court on her behalf today, along with some other people. What were they saying about her?
CYNTHIA WILLIAMS, REPORTER, WSMV: Well, Mark Lowe said that his daughter was a very sweet girl, is a very sweet girl. He said that she`s a very loyal girl, a very obedient girl. He said that Lindsey`s mother Paula was actually diagnosed with a brain tumor six years ago, and it recurred in April, and so Lindsey has pretty much been a caretaker for her mom these past few months.
PINSKY: Is there any speculation about who the dad is here, or did that come up at all?
WILLIAMS: The fiance, Jonathan Brooks, was actually in court today. And there has been -- the district attorney general has ordered DNA testing to determine the paternity of the newborn twins. But we don`t really know who the father is. And the fiance had nothing to say today, Drew.
PINSKY: And if she`s the caretaker of a severely ill mom, that is very stressful. This is a woman that apparently everyone loved and thought of as sort of -- I think her dad said she was a perfect daughter. Is that right?
WILLIAMS: Well, I don`t know if he thought that she was the perfect daughter. He certainly said that he didn`t condone what she is alleged to have done, or confessed to have done, but he does support her.
And I`ve heard everything in the greater Nashville community from outrage to compassion involving Lindsey Lowe. Some people are outraged what she`s confessed to have done. There`s some people though who have compassion for her.
They wonder what was going on in her head. They wonder what was possibly going on in the home that made her resort to what she told police that she did.
PINSKY: And how about bond for bail? Is she going to make that? Has that been set up yet?
WILLIAMS: Today was the bond hearing, and the district attorney general was hoping that Lindsey would stay in jail with no bond. But the judge set her bond at $250,000. That means her family has to come up with $25,000 in order for her to make bond. And the last I heard, Lindsey was still spending the evening in jail right now.
PINSKY: Well, thank you, Cynthia, for that update. Appreciate it.
Police were explicit about the disturbing nature of this alleged crime. They said, "Lowe confessed that she knowingly and intentionally killed each of her children using her bare hand to stop their breathing until they were dead in order to prevent her parents from discovering."
Now, because of other cases involving mothers killing infants, some might immediately jump to the conclusion that this was some sort of psychiatric condition related to her pregnancy. I think people understand things like postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis, where people can do unusual things in an altered state from the pregnancy. But the time course (ph) wasn`t quite right for this.
And Lisa, you think the motivation was quite different in this case. Is that right?
LISA BOESKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes. She really doesn`t fit the typical profile of the young teenager who is extremely immature and uneducated, from a poor background. So what I see with girls like this, when they kind of fit into the other category, I know it sounds strange, but I call it the "Four Daddy Reasons."
The first is the baby daddy. There`s something about the father of the child that she desperately has to keep the babies secret, whether it`s his race, his religion, his criminal background. Sometimes these women have been raped by a family member, or the baby was created out of infidelity.
Second, is her own daddy, so her daddy and her mommy. She`s afraid of what her parents are going to think of her. They might disown her, they`ll be so disappointed in her, they`ll be angry at her.
Third, is the community daddy, kind of our religious organizations, our community leaders, our school leaders, that the girls are so desperately hiding this because they don`t want to be seen as a bad girl or a sinner or a disappointment to people.
And finally is what I call kind of the wannabe daddy. There`s a boy who she wants to be the father, and either it`s not him, and so she doesn`t want the boy she wants to hook up with to know she`s pregnant, or it is her current boyfriend or fiance, and either the baby was conceived out of infidelity, or she knows that the father of the child is going to be very upset and might even break up with her if he knew that she were pregnant.
All of these reasons are purely for her, and she is not thinking at all about the innocent child that she`s created.
PINSKY: So we really are saying these are truly psychological motivations, or sociopsychological motivations, and not a disturbed psychiatric condition.
District Attorney Whitely, we spoke last week about the possibility of Lowe`s fiance not being the father of the twins. And we just heard Lisa Boesky add that particular daddy to the list of four daddies.
What are your thoughts on that tonight?
RAY WHITLEY, SUMNER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t want to speculate at this point, Dr. Drew, on who the daddy is. All I can say is that we have done appropriate DNA testing, and we will find out who the daddy is through that DNA. And that remains to be seen.
PINSKY: You heard what the psychologist, Lisa Boesky, was saying about the motivators for cases in this sort of category. It kind of sounds like Ms. Lowe here, doesn`t it?
WHITLEY: Well, it sounds like at least two or three of those categories may well be met in this case.
PINSKY: Or three or four.
WHITLEY: Maybe so.
PINSKY: Now, Lindsey`s bail hearing, witness after witness testified to her character, including her father.
Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK LOWE, LINDSEY LOWE`S FATHER: Lindsey is a model daughter, and we love her very much. She`s as good as it gets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Lisa, is this just another example of one of the daddies needing her to be perfect and her needing to be perfect for him?
BOESKY: Well, the hard part is some of these girls, whether it`s coming from the outside or coming from the inside, feeling the need to be perfect, or that she`s going to let somebody down. The hard part about this, too, though is, although the murder is horrific, even if these babies are found, which sometimes they are -- they are found in toilets or laundry baskets or trash cans -- is that the lack of prenatal care means she didn`t get folic acid, these babies are at risk for birth defects.
If some of these young women have drunk alcohol, the babies are at risk for Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. This was a high-risk pregnancy with twins. And so even when these babies survive, these women really put these kids at risk, and it`s horrific when it happens, and it`s happening more and more.
PINSKY: Well, I want to ask sort of a next order question, Lisa, of that very issue. Is something going on in our culture, in our American society, where we are not preparing young women for this?
And the fact -- I mean, think about it. Yes, it`s for daddy, it`s for the boyfriend, they need to hide the infidelities and all this stuff, but they`re willing to resort to murder for all that? Do we have a deep cultural problem here?
BOESKY: Well, I think we have two things going on.
One, I do think we become a throwaway society, and it`s easier to just throw things away. But I think number two, I don`t think parents are having the conversation with their kids, and 19 years old is way too old to have the conversation. Clearly, 25 is as well. That they need to talk about accidental pregnancies happen, even when you`re on birth control.
And parents need to convey the fact that yes, we`ll be upset, yes, we`ll be disappointed, but we will be there to help you, or, at least, here are what your options are. I also think the community needs to let people know about safe haven laws so that these girls know that they can drop these babies off without any kind of repercussions. And third, I think our religious organizations need to communicate that they would be willing to support and guide these girls, because I think a lot of these girls think these churches will turn their back on them.
And I think maybe they would go for help, because I know she was very close to her church. And I wish she had gone to them for help.
PINSKY: Boy. And Lisa, in Tennessee, they do have safe haven laws.
Let me go to Ms. Lowe`s defense attorney, Mr. Pellegrin.
Will her psychiatric condition figure into your defense, or can you talk about what your defense is likely to be?
JOHN PELLEGRIN, LINDSEY LOWE`S ATTORNEY: Well, at this point we obviously don`t know. She has not been evaluated. She`s been in jail for five days or so now, where she remains at this time. Once she is released, we certainly want to have her evaluated immediately, not only to get what - - to address whatever issues she has, to get her the help she needs, but also to see if there are any defenses that can be made as a result of her psychiatric condition, whatever that might be.
PINSKY: And Mr. Pellegrin, I have no doubt that everybody involved with this considers this just a shattering tragedy. But what`s the sort of pulse in the community? Do you expect that people are going to be able to render a dispassionate -- you`re going to be able to seat a jury that really can evaluate this dispassionately?
PELLEGRIN: Well, I don`t think it`s the sort of case that is going to lend itself to being evaluated dispassionately. You`re correct, emotions run high. You know, lots of comments that people make about what a terrible crime it is, just absolutely horrific, as you say.
On the other hand, I have been surprised at the number of people, even people who do not know Lindsey Lowe, who have expressed sympathy and concern and knowing that very obviously something is terribly, terribly wrong.
PINSKY: And Mr. Pellegrin, I was actually in Nashville over the weekend, and I was surprised that -- I think it`s "The Tennessean" is the local paper -- and I was surprised, having covered this story from Los Angeles, that there was a certain amount of dispassion in how they`re evaluating, and I thought there would be more outrage, because it is a horrific story. But really what matters is what the state is going to go after here.
So, Ray Whitley, I want to ask you, what penalty will the state seek in this case?
WHITLEY: Well, under Tennessee law there are three penalties possible for first-degree murder: the death penalty, life without parole, and life with parole, which means if a person can get parole -- and under Tennessee law they have to serve 51 calendar years, day for day, before they can meet the parole board. So these are very serious charges.
At some point I will have to make a decision as to what punishment to seek upon conviction, if there is a conviction or convictions. But at this point, I`m not ready to make that decision because the case is still under investigation. And there are an awful lot of factors that have to go into this.
PINSKY: Do you think we`re going to find some mitigating factors?
WHITLEY: Well, there will be plenty. She comes from a fine family, and she has no criminal record.
She doesn`t appear to be a threat to the community itself, other than what she has already done, or charged with doing. There are just a lot of factors that have to be considered in any first-degree murder case, and I am going to be undergoing that process as the case progresses.
PINSKY: Gentlemen, I thank you for your frankness and input. And I hear in your voices, this case makes you sad. I mean, no one is going at this thing with any sort of enthusiasm.
Lisa, I want to give you the last word. What can we learn from this? What women are at risk? What can we do to stop this?
BOESKY: Well, you rarely ever hear me say this on your show, but I`m actually going to go out on a limb and say unless serious mental illness like psychosis is found, I do feel that this woman should be held criminally responsible, because I do think we need to send a message to the young women out there that the punishment of doing something like this is so much worse than telling somebody that you`re pregnant, or at least dropping that baby off at a safe haven location.
PINSKY: Lisa, let me just follow up to that and ask you, are we unfairly making this an issue about women?
BOESKY: Well, we just don`t know if the -- I mean, yes, of course. We don`t talk enough about boys and their role in pregnancy in general, but I think it`s hard.
We don`t know in this case if she told -- and we don`t think that she told the boy -- that she was pregnant. So he may not have had any say at all, and I think that`s a whole other issue that needs to be to discussed, that boys, if they are having sex, need to be paying attention to whether that girl gets pregnant or not.
PINSKY: Thank you, Mr. Whitley.
Thank you, Mr. Pellegrin.
And, of course, Lisa Boesky. Thank you so much for joining me.
And Cynthia Williams, I appreciate the report from down in Nashville.
Up next, this tragic case has brought out the emotion in many of our viewers. I`m taking your calls and comments about this after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many lives are ruined, it`s a tragedy for everybody. We`re all just shocked and saddened, and pray for her and her family.
I mean, I`ve tried to put myself in that position over and over since last night, and just, you know, you don`t know what they`re thinking, what they`re going through. But anybody out there that may be going through this, you would hope that they would reach out to someone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. SCOTT RYAN, HENDERSONVILLE POLICE: In the time that I`ve been with Hendersonville for 17 years now, this is the only time that I`ve seen a crime such as this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was a seasoned law man, one of the many in the community of Hendersonville, Tennessee, shocked by the alleged double murders of newborn twins, their own mother charged with the crime.
Now, you have a lot to say about this. Let us start with a Facebook post.
Sharon writes, "Simple question: How can we ever understand how people can be so cruel, especially in this case, where a mother is said to have killed her newborn twins?"
And that is the question we are all shaking our head and asking. If you were watching earlier, psychologist Lisa Boesky pointed out that in these kinds of cases that are not because of a psychiatric disturbance, she sees four motivators: a fear of the culture, a fear of not being perfect for her parents, a fear of losing a fiance or boyfriend because the babies belong to somebody else. And it seemed like those sorts of motivators are operating here.
Let`s go to the phones. We`ve got Lorraine in California.
Go ahead, Lorraine.
LORRAINE, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey, Lorraine.
LORRAINE: I think what was going through this mother`s mind was plain and simple. It`s greed and selfishness.
She knew she was pregnant and purposely hid it. She had it planned all out and murdered two innocent, helpless baby boys. If she didn`t want her family or anyone to know, safe surrender would have been the way to do it, not murdering them.
PINSKY: I couldn`t agree with you more, but the sad reality is, she didn`t make those choices. I think she was sort of alone and fearing everything, and spinning in her own sort of disturbed thinking.
And it`s hard to imagine that somebody who never had any previous clinical records, or any criminal records, or previous behavioral problems is going to willfully plan this out, plan out a murder, that it wasn`t something kind of impulsive. And by the way, if it weren`t impulsive, why would she have left these babies in a basket?
It`s all just mystifying. It`s hard to understand. But I don`t want to believe this was an evil situation, which is what you`re suggesting. But it could be.
Gina writes, "I honestly think" -- this is Facebook -- Gina, "I honestly think that everyone is judging this young lady way too harshly. We only know what the media has given us. What if it was her daddy`s kids? What if the twins were the result of rape? I think she deserves the benefit of the doubt before she is crucified by the world. Remember, innocent until proven guilty."
And I think you have a point here. We need the facts in this case. And again, after talking to both the prosecutor and her defense attorney, they`re waiting for many things. I think the one very, very critical piece of information is going to be the paternity.
Finally, Mary on Facebook writes, "The only reason she is on suicide watch is because she`s afraid of going to prison, not because she murdered those babies."
That`s not been my experience in situations like this. In situations like this, there is profound grief over what they`ve done. There`s often confusion over the choices they made. And when they realize what they have done, when sort of the reality of it comes crushing in, it`s shattering.
When they do it they`re in kind of a denial state. And when they are forced -- their face is pressed to the mirror by the legal reality of what`s going on here, it`s shattering, they contemplate killing themselves.
The Conrad Murray case is moving toward testimony. And apparently, a missing witness might not be missing after all.
We`re going to get into that and a whole lot more after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Dr. Murray is the fall guy -- and it`s all focused on this while they do something else -- Dr. Murray is the fall guy. This is (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): The doctor, the pharmacist, and the King of Pop. A new twist in the Michael Jackson death trial as a key witness drops off the map, then suddenly reappears. The man who admitted supplying propofol to Dr. Murray disappears, then pops up halfway around the world. Who is this man? What does he have to do with this man? And what, if anything, did they have to do with Michael Jackson`s death?
And later, he survived some of the craziest stunts on television, but the one that almost killed him was a deadly dance with drugs. Jackass` Steve-O talks to me about life, spills, tumbles, and amazing recoveries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): It looks like Dr. Conrad Murray will have his day in court. Jury selection for the manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson`s doctor seems to be back on track, and the trial, barring any last minute issues, should begin with opening statements next Tuesday. But for a moment, there was a glitch. A missing witness had everyone all stirred up, and you`ll see. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A key witness in the Conrad Murray trial is missing. Back in January, Tim Lopez testified that his company sent Murray almost four gallons of the powerful anesthetic that killed Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Surprise, surprise, they found him. Pharmacist, Tim Lopez, was located in Thailand, and apparently, he will now return to testify in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The countdown is on, and the judge in the trial to decide how Michael Jackson died wants to get things going. Right now, they are sifting through the jury pool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have 30 page questionnaires, 145 people that they can pick from. They`ve got to look through all of the filled out pages of the questionnaires to see their opinions on Michael Jackson, to see their opinions on Conrad Murray.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me now to talk about the latest developments are Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, he was Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor who he, himself, faced wrongful death charges in her death and was ultimately acquitted and Judge Larry Seidlin, the Florida judge in the initial hearings in the Anna Nicole Smith Saga.
Now, Larry, everyone was all stirred up over the disappearance of this witness, Tim Lopez, the pharmacist who claims to have sent Conrad Murray a big supply of propofol. Can you tell us how crucial is this guy?
JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, JUDGE IN ANNA NICOLE SMITH HEARING: He`s a key witness. He claims he sends four gallons of the drug to Dr. Murray, and Dr. Murray was using this as an inventory, because he was going to London with Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was going to perform 50 shows.
And he was holding all of that propofol to give to Michael Jackson to help him go to sleep in Europe. So, he was a key witness, and they found him. They have him now ready to go to trial, the prosecutor.
PINSKY: And Judge Seidlin, you know, again, from a clinical standpoint, the idea of a doctor using propofol outside a hospital is bizarre for us, but then, having it sent to your own personal address or even your own office and then keeping it inventory of what is effectively a general anesthetic or something that, you know, they should be used in a highly monitored setting, are there specific laws?
Are you aware of laws governing that? Is he taking this across state lines? Has he violated a number of laws there?
SEIDLIN: The prosecutor kept this case simple. They charged Murray with one crime, manslaughter. And they`re keeping it simple. You saw with Casey Anthony, they overcharged her. They charged her with murder one. Here, it`s a simple case. They want to just prove that he was reckless, grossly reckless, in his conduct towards Michael Jackson. That he do things that he knew he should not have done in this setting in a bedroom with these drugs.
PINSKY: The autopsy report on Michael Jackson`s body showed there was propofol in his stomach. We`re hearing that the defense might claim that Michael Jackson was addicted to what`s, otherwise, an intravenous anesthetic, and out of desperation, actually, drank it before he died, and that is what led to his death. Dr. Kapoor, could that have led to his death? Is that a reasonable defense for Conrad Murray?
DR. SANDEEP KAPOOR, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S PHYSICIAN: Oh, I think it`s pretty highly implausible that you can look at a concentration of medication that is caustic in itself. If you were to take and drink that, it would burn your throat. I mean, you have to mix it with Lidocaine, that`s how it`s done. With the IV, it`s mixed up with Lidocaine.
But it`s pretty implausible for him to mix it out and put it in a juice bottle or whatever they`re saying to drink it down. And also, I think it`s going to come down to looking at the concentration that was in the stomach contents and whether that was feasible from just the amount that was maybe in the bloodstream that seeped into adjacent organs.
PINSKY: Right. So, let`s make this clear again is that what is probably the stomach is just what`s in his blood, and probably, what was in his blood came from what was injected into his blood and it just seeped into the stomach as opposed to him taking it through his mouth and trying to ingest it, because ingesting propofol.
I can`t -- I`ve never heard of anybody doing that, first of all, and I can`t imagine that that`s how he`d received it in the past. I guess, they could make a case that he was desperate or something or, you know, I don`t know, but that doesn`t pass the sniff test very well, doesn`t it?
KAPOOR: Yes. He`d have to mix it up, and --
PINSKY: And by the way, he already received multiple milligrams of IV Ativan. You can barely raise your head off after that and some Versed, too.
KAPOOR: And that`s where the liver comes. The liver is right next to the stomach, and it could be that you gone -- you know, it saturated with, you know, the other benzodiazepines that were given earlier, and then, the propofol seeping over, and there was not very much of it, and the concentration is going to be the key here, the key to --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Well, remember, once you dose them up, it`s a small dose infusion that keeps people asleep. Now, some of the defense attorneys have talked about what they`re calling the O.J. effect, and now it`s being called the Casey effect or Casey Anthony effect, rather, where jurors basically feel that O.J. Simpson and/or Casey Anthony were wrongfully acquitted.
That you know, that a guilty person is walking free, and they fear that jurors could now take out this anger on their client. Judge Seidlin, is that a real concern for Conrad Murray? Are we actually seeing this effect?
SEIDLIN: The judge decides he`s going to allow this case to be televised. At the same time, he says, the jurors can go home. They don`t have to be sequestered. That means these jurors in the evening are going to be hammered by TV, newspapers, their family, their friends. It`s going to be a drumbeat against Dr. Murray.
They`re going to say he killed the King of Pop. I find it unconscionable that the court said we`re not going to sequester the jury. The judge had to decide the expense involved in putting the jury up in a hotel versus the justice to give to Dr. Murray. I believe this is totally unfair. Can you imagine the Casey Anthony case if you allowed those jurors to go home every night and listen to the pundits on TV?
PINSKY: Yes. I think they would have been unlikely to find her not guilty. People were wishing the jurors had gone home, but that`s a different issue. Judge, I know you`re not one (INAUDIBLE), I`m just curious. What is going to happen and what`s your predictions here as we`re heading into this case. I feel like one of the NFL anchors, you know, what`s your predictions on the game, but what are your predictions on this trial?
SEIDLIN: I`m going to predict to you what`s going to happen. I predicted that Casey Anthony would walk. I was one of the only leading legal analysts that said she`d walk. I said she was overcharged. This one is going to be tough for Dr. Murray. He`s not as pretty as Casey Anthony, and the jurors are going to be able to go home. That`s a big problem.
In this case, I think Dr. Murray is going to be in trouble. I think these jurors are going to have a hard time not getting prejudiced by the legal commentators discussing this case. He might be facing time. This is a four-year jail term, this kind of crime. He may not get sentenced to that type of time. I feel there`s a good chance he may be found guilty.
PINSKY: Judge, thank you for your opinion and the feedback. I`m going to give last word to Dr. Kapoor just quickly on this issue of cameras in the courtroom. You felt it was an asset and a liability. Can you explain that to me? We have less than a minute.
KAPOOR: I thought it was an asset -- it would have been an asset for us, because some (INAUDIBLE) the prosecution claim. They would try a lot of zany things during the trial, and it would be -- if it was on camera, I think it would have kept him a little bit more, you know, honest.
And in my case, I actually totally disagree with the judge. I believe that the jurors being sequestered is worse. I think that they take the judge at -- he admonishes them every day, tells them not -- you know, they`re not -- and I actually believe that they went home, and they took that oath very seriously, and they did not --
PINSKY: And Judge Seidlin, feel free to respond to what Dr. Kapoor is saying. So, finish, Dr. Kapoor.
KAPOOR: Yes. I mean, I absolutely believe that the judge had such a very good connection with the jury and that they listened to him and they followed his instructions of the admonitions, and they did their duty as a serving what they were supposed to do.
PINSKY: Judge Seidlin, last word to you.
SEIDLIN: But in your case --
PINSKY: Yes.
SEIDLIN: But in your case, it wasn`t televised. TV cameras were not in the courtroom, and your colleague, by the jury, one was found guilty of two felonies, and Stern (ph) was found guilty of two felonies, but the judge decided that there still was not enough evidence, and he did a judgment with notwithstanding the verdict, and he let -- he found both other defendants not guilty.
Here, you got cameras in the courtroom and you`ve got the King of pop. The world is watching this case, and I think the jurors for the expense that California would have to pay to sequester the jurors, we should guarantee this defendant a fair trial. That`s what this whole American system is about. A fair trial.
PINSKY: Well, gentlemen, thank you for your opinions. Obviously, this is not going away. We`re going to be talking about this every night. Actually, Nancy Grace leads a pretrial investigation into the death of Michael Jackson. "Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial," Saturday night, 9:00 p.m. eastern on HLN.
And a (INAUDIBLE) from possibly what could be one of the biggest trials of the century. HLN will have expert coverage beginning Tuesday, September 27th.
And when we come back, one of the stars of MTV`s "Jackass" has done some crazy stuff, but when the cameras stopped rolling, nobody was laughing. He had bad addiction. Steve-O talks about it and his recovery, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, I recently sat down with one of the stars of "Jackass," none other than the great Steve-O. Now, we talked about his new book, "Steve-O, Professional Idiot, A Memoir." I love that guy. Now, in it, he speaks of the harsh realities of having become famous for his crazy stunts and how he, eventually, and for a long time, in fact, had a very severe addiction to drugs and alcohol, and as he sees it, even fame itself.
He is brutally honest about Johnny Knoxville, the "Jackass" guys, what they did for him, and how they saved his life. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Joining me is one of the stars of MTV`s hit show and movie, "Jackass," of course. Steve-O. Steve-O is an author. His book is "Steve-O, Professional Idiot, A Memoir." What major (ph) at the book?
STEVE-O, AUTHOR, "PROFESSIONAL IDIOT, A MEMOIR": I`m in jail and my life is an absolute disaster. And, here, I mean, I feel like it`s important for me to start writing my life story. And I scroll out on this piece of paper. I write, to whom it may concern. They call me Steve-O, but I`m thinking about switching back to Steve Glover, because I don`t know if I want a nickname when I`m famous.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVE-O: And I had nothing that anybody in the world knew for, and I was just so sure that I was going to be famous. I just really believed.
PINSKY: You`re right, but the fame, I remember some dark days with the fame, too.
STEVE-O: Sure.
PINSKY: Because when you were really, really using a lot --
STEVE-O: Yes.
PINSKY: The fame thing was still part of the disease process.
STEVE-O: Absolutely. Absolutely, which is a good reason why I`m glad that I didn`t let somebody talk me onto going on "Celebrity Rehab."
PINSKY: Yes.
STEVE-O: You know, that would have been a disaster for me, personally, because I was so addicted --
(CROSSTALK)
STEVE-O: I still have issues with it.
PINSKY: Would have enhanced your specialness and all that?
STEVE-O: The spotlight. You know, I don`t think that I ever had any real meaningful recovery until I was able to put down the video camera and stop.
PINSKY: Well, I remember back in those days, people were sort of around you then, people like, Steve, the computer, we`re taking it. Remember that? Remember how big a deal that was?
STEVE-O: Yes.
PINSKY: That`s a big deal.
STEVE-O: Yes.
PINSKY: Let`s take people back to that moment, because that`s really chronicled in a sort of, I don`t know, vivid way in the book.
STEVE-O: Sure.
PINSKY: So, you were using what?
STEVE-O: I was using ketamine, PCP, cocaine.
PINSKY: Nitrous.
STEVE-O: Nitrous oxide, pills, alcohol, marijuana.
PINSKY: And you were getting increasingly manic?
STEVE-O: Sure.
PINSKY: And sort of delusional?
STEVE-O: Yes. We had some talks about the possibility of me having bipolar. I think that you indicated that there was a strong possibility.
PINSKY: I hope you remember, what I was saying was, it doesn`t matter, you`re manic now, whether you really have bipolar doesn`t really matter.
STEVE-O: Right.
PINSKY: Everybody talks about Charlie Sheen at that same thing. That`s hypomania, whether it`s really bipolar or something drug abuse, it kind of doesn`t matter. It needs to get landed before somebody hurts themselves.
STEVE-O: Right.
PINSKY: And then, just sort of short-hand, what happened, Knoxville saved your life, as far as I`m concerned.
STEVE-O: Sure.
PINSKY: He came in and tied you up.
STEVE-O: Well, he called me first, and he said we`re about to lose Steve-O. We felt like he`s going to die any day now. He said that that`s absolutely right, and you told him to get me into the hospital, California, 5150 hold.
PINSKY: What I said was, I said, look, you`ve tied him up million times, right? Do it now. Get him anywhere you can, get in the car, get him to the hospital, I don`t care how you do it.
STEVE-O: So, what happened was Knoxville came over to my apartment with the director of "Jackass," the director of photography, the executive producer, the sound guy, it was like the whole crew of "Jackass" came over to stop me from hurting myself after helping me hurt myself for ten years - -
(LAUGHTER)
STEVE-O: Which is pretty amazing.
PINSKY: Which I`m sure you used that against them when they were there.
STEVE-O: You know, I was defiant. I didn`t want, really, any part of it. And then, it became clear that this was not a yes or no question. This was, you`re going to come willingly or we`re going to physically beat you up and take you against your will, but it takes some time. I can see the humor in and out (ph).
I mean, it`s just absolutely hilarious, you know, if you think -- think of it this way, you know you got a serious problem when Johnny Knoxville is your interventionist.
(LAUGHTER)
STEVE-O: I mean, the "Jackass" gang show is out like that, you know? Enough is enough.
PINSKY: So, can you talk to the extent that you`re comfortable about recovery?
STEVE-O: Sure. I wasn`t really willing right away. I mean, they got me locked up in the, like I said, the 5150 hold. That means three days involuntary hold in the psych ward. But when I showed up at the hospital, I was so belligerent. I was throwing chairs, and -- just imagine the people at the hospital. We got a two-week kid over here, because they changed my status to 5250, which means two week hold.
PINSKY: Yes.
STEVE-O: And with two weeks in the psych ward to sit there and think, it actually only takes about seven days for me to arrive at the conclusion that I genuinely needed to make a change. And that was when I agreed to go straight into rehab. I bounced around rehabs and psych wards for six months, then wound up going into a sober living environment.
PINSKY: You did that for two years, right?
STEVE-O: Two years of sobriety.
PINSKY: Now, couple things. Given that the fame seeking was such a part of your process about the evolution of things, how do you feel about that now? And a lot of young people are -- that`s sort of their motivation in life.
STEVE-O: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
STEVE-O: Especially now in this day and age with all the social media and everything, you know, like with Facebook and Twitter and all this stuff, really the number of people that you have following you is almost you can think of it as how many fans you have.
PINSKY: It was almost like, yes, how do you define yourself.
STEVE-O: Everybody`s got fans in some way or another. And at the click of a mouse lies some measure of fame.
PINSKY: Do you have any thoughts about that?
STEVE-O: I think -- I think that it`s -- I don`t know. It`s dangerous, I suppose.
PINSKY: Empty?
STEVE-O: Yes. I mean, the most important thing for me is to have some kind of separation between who I am and what I do, which I never did before. I was never able to turn off the Steve-O character, and I never had contemplated any life beyond my career as the Steve-O character.
And recovery for me is the function of having some separation between my personal life and my career as this crazy guy. And, now, you know, today is precisely three years, three months, and three days of sobriety for me. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Coming up, Steve-O talks about his parents, what it was like growing up as Steven Glover, and how he`s able to stay sober. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, Steve-O has got a lot to say about family and upbringing, and how he`s been able to deal with his addictions and stay clean and sober. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: There`s one other piece that people get fascinated about with you, which is your dad and my love (ph).
STEVE-O: Right. Right.
PINSKY: He`s one of my favorite people, seriously. And he was, you know, a captain of industry. Your mom was this well put together nurse.
STEVE-O: Very well put together.
PINSKY: And together, they created Steve-O.
STEVE-O: Right.
PINSKY: And people get fascinated. They don`t understand how that happened.
STEVE-O: Right. Well, you know, my mom`s side of the family was really --
PINSKY: Alcoholic.
STEVE-O: Alcoholic. Everyone in the family was alcohol addict, gambling, suicide. And dad`s side of the family were these strivers and achievers, who were all, you know, like Harvard, you know, Ph.Ds, zoologist, you know, like authors --
PINSKY: Your mom was super bright, too --
STEVE-O: Sure, she was.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I know. Right. You grew up all over the world. People don`t know it. You were in Egypt. You were in England.
STEVE-O: I grew up in five different countries. I spoke three languages by the age of four. Of course, I forgot two of them by the age of five. And, yes. Definitely, I grew up all over the world.
PINSKY: And this is you, by the way.
STEVE-O: That`s me.
PINSKY: Let`s get a close-up on that, if we can.
STEVE-O: Right.
PINSKY: Which camera was going to get that? There he is.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: He was cute. Speaking by then three languages.
STEVE-O: Aha.
PINSKY: What three?
STEVE-O: Portuguese, Spanish, and English.
PINSKY: Wow.
STEVE-O: Yes. It`s been kind of a guarded secret that maybe I`m not quite as idiotic as I led on on television.
PINSKY: But that`s -- I mean, you`re saying that with tongue and your cheek, but that`s what I want to show here, which is you`re an extraordinary person not just -- and let me just sort of finish with this, and I do, by the way, if you want to understand what I`m talking about, please do get the book. You will see what I`m talking about, which is you lived an extraordinary life prior to Steve-O.
STEVE-O: Sure.
PINSKY: A very rich, interesting, in a diverse life. You`ve got amazing parents. You had a hair raising experience with addiction, and you come out with a profound program that can be inspiring to lots of other people, it seems to me. So, that`s what I feel. I still think of you with the elephants crapping on your head, don`t get me wrong.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: And I watched "Jackass" 3D like everybody else.
STEVE-O: I never had a problem when elephants crapping on my head.
PINSKY: Closest thing I came to throwing up in a movie theater with your movie, thank you very much.
STEVE-O: It`s been great to be friends so long. I know we`re out of time, but I just want to thank you for everything.
PINSKY: I appreciate you being here with me. Congratulations on your success. And please don`t stop being Steve-O.
STEVE-O: I`m not going to.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: OK. The book is called "Steve-O, Professional Idiot, A Memoir." It`s in stores, in Amazon. Go, support my friend, Steve-O.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Then, you see now why I love that guy. I can`t get enough of him.
Now before we go, a couple of words about the case of Lindsey Lowe, the women who gave birth the twins and is charged with murdering them seconds after she delivered them in secret. Awful story. Many unanswered questions. Why didn`t she or the guy involved, the dad, use contraception. Did she consent to sex with the father? Is it the fiance? Why didn`t she tell anyone. Was there a reason she didn`t drop the babies off at a church or hospital?
I mean, there are laws in Tennessee protecting women that want to do that. That`s what makes this all so hard to understand. Now, obviously, secrets and shame are involved. They are powerful motivators. It`s possible, look into yourself (ph), didn`t quite understand how her actions led to her ultimately facing murder charges. She didn`t connect the dots. She was so caught in her own thinking.
It`s possible that she may have felt so alone that she talked herself into this. And it could have been avoided, potentially, by telling a trusted other. Think about that. Other people can change things in vast, vast, vast ways.
Thanks for watching. We`ll see you next time.
END
