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Dr. Drew
Day Two of Michael Jackson Doctor`s Trial; Nancy Grace on `Dancing With The Stars`
Aired September 28, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. Its day two of the Michael Jackson death trial, and one thing is clear. Jackson died at the crossroads of stardom and medicine. As a physician in this town, I see this kind of thing all the time celebrities, addicts, physicians, and lethal medication. I am breaking this down and talking to those closest to Michael.
Plus, HLN`s fearless prosecutor Nancy Grace weighs in on today`s stunning testimony. Let`s get started.
PINSKY: Explosive testimony today in day two of the Michael Jackson death trial. Doctor Conrad Murray faces up to four years for involuntary manslaughter. Today, Jackson`s personal assistant told jurors the really heartbreaking story of seeing Michael`s lifeless body at the mansion that sad day in 2009.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Day two of the Michael Jackson death trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson`s personal assistant giving riveting testimony.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was real frantic. I got there when the gurney was coming down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a gurney with Michael Jackson`s body on it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Doctor Conrad Murray calls him on the day Michael Jackson dice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said get here right away; Michael Jackson had a bad reaction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We actually to get to hear Doctor Conrad Murray`s own voice and also new information about the defence case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They believe Michael Jackson was, in fact, playing possum. That he was awake, but feigning sleep until the doctor left the room. He then got up, went to the medicine cabinet, took these eight pills of Lorazepam, and also injected more propofol into an IV.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Joining me tonight is former prosecutor, Marcia Clark, author of a new book, "guilt by association." We also have Judge Larry Seidlin here in the studio with me. And from the courthouse is Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on TruTV.
Now, before we go to our panel, I wanted to address Michael Emir Williams` testimony from today. Williams was Jackson`s personal assistant for two years. He said that Doctor Murray reached out to him first, before calling 911, but after finding Michael Jackson unconscious. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got out of the shower; you saw there was a message.
MICHAEL EMIR WILLIAMS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL ASSISTANT: Yes, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. You heard the message?
WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what was the message?
WILLIAMS: It was, "call me right away. Call me right away, thank you."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Call me right away, please. Call me right away, thank.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you able to make contact with him?
WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you to call 911?
WILLIAMS: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
WILLIAMS: He said where are you? And I said I`m downtown. And he said, get here right away, Mister Jackson had a bad reaction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Ryan, what do you think they`ve established here for the jury by showing that Doctor Murray called an assistant before calling 911?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: They`re talking all about the failure to provide the right standard of care, Drew. It all started with that failure. Then it moved on to Faheem Muhammad, the head of security there. And Faheem Muhammad came into the room, there was a frantic attempt to try to revive Michael Jackson, the children were in the room, witnessing all of these. Then they moved outside of the room. But the main point especially with Michael Williams there was no one was asked to call 911. In fact, Doctor Conrad Murray at one point asked the bodyguards if he knew how to do CPR before even telling anyone what was going on or to even reach out to 911. For the prosecution, this is a phenomenal failure in the standard of care.
PINSKY: Well, Ryan, I agree with you, but I`ve got to say something, the defence has a - if they`re smart, there`s something that they can do here, which is say, look, when you`re trained to do cardiac life-support, the first thing you do is when you get to a scene is goes, who knows CPR? Do you know it? Do you know it? Join me. That`s what you supposed to do.
By the same token, he`s a cardiologist. You can`t get farther up the food chain in resuscitation than a cardiologist maybe an Anaesthesiologist. I mean the two highest levels of resuscitation professional were available. Who is he going to call? He`s a cardiologist. In a way, he might have been thinking the buck stops with me. I`ve got to give what I can together here. The paramedics aren`t going to help me, because I`m a cardiologist. Well again, that`s me sort of grasping at straws on behalf of defence. Now, do you think I mean does that make sense to you, Ryan?
SMITH: It does. And I think that`s part of what the defence tried to show here. They tried to show that Doctor Murray was trying to do the best he can in a chaotic scene. But one of the biggest problems, the prosecution kept hammering on this case was you had so many opportunities to tell people to go get help. Michael Williams you could have told, Faheem Muhammad, people were coming in the room, trying to figure out what was going on.
In fact, Williams said he didn`t even know what was happening until he got to the hospital. The leader of all of this, supposedly, was Doctor Murray, and if he would have told someone to call 911, the prosecution kept intimating that maybe Michael Jackson`s life could have been saved, maybe paramedics could have gotten there a little bit earlier, and maybe that would have made the difference.
PINSKY: I think that`s maybe true. And Williams went on to testify after they got to the hospital Conrad Murray wanted to go back to the house to retrieve some cream. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: He said that there`s some cream in Michael`s room or house, room, that he wouldn`t want the world to know about, and he requested that I or someone give him a ride back to the house to get it, so the world wouldn`t know about the cream. So I went to Faheem, Faheem Muhammad and told him about Doctor Murray`s request, and we both agreed that that can`t happen, can`t go back to the house. I knew that much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Marcia, putting my physician head on again here, I scroll through every possible cream I know of that can be embarrassing for him and I can`t think of a thing. Is this simply consciousness of guilt and he was trying to hide something?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTION: That`s what I think, and I`m sure that`s what the prosecution`s position is. There`s no reason to go back for anything. Michael has got to be taken care of, whatever you think condition he`s in you don`t have to go back for any cream at this point. I do think he was probably going back to see if he could gather up any of the propofol, that he had any of the syringes, any of the incriminating evidence that was left behind. As we know, he didn`t do a very good job of that, but that to me seems the only explicable reason.
PINSKY: Well, I think they did not take him back is part of the deal here. In other testimony today, Michael Jackson`s security guard took the stand and told jurors how Michael`s kids reacted to the chaos that day. This is a very sad piece of that story. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were prince and Paris when you first observed them?
WILLIAMS: They were in this area right here. They weren`t quite inside the room. They were right in this landing here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So what drew your attention to them? Could you hear them?
WILLIAMS: Yes, Paris was on the ground, balled up crying, and Prince was just he was standing there, and he was just, he just had a real shocked, you know, just slowly crying type of look on his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Judge Seidlin, it seems to me the prosecution is hammering Doctor Conrad Murray from every angle from acknowledgement of consciousness of guilt, from playing upon the emotions of the children in the room, doesn`t look good.
JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, PRESIDED OVER ANNA NICOLE SMITH TRIAL: They`re putting a lot of nails in his coffin. If he was a cheese, it would be a Swiss cheese. They`ve got so many holes in his body already. He`s in trouble. The only thing he can hope for is maybe a mistrial. That some of these jurors are watching you and I talking about the case tonight. The jury is on an honour system. And as you and I know is there so much honour. Socrates said, is there an honest man among us? I`m concerned about that jury. If that jury is watching us tonight, if they`re listening to us tonight, it`s going to cause a mistrial because the judge wanted to save some money and not sequester the jury. The case is very strong.
PINSKY: Let me ask this. Why didn`t he call for plea? If they made the right charge, why didn`t he just go, no contest?
SEIDLIN: That`s a great question. Once the camera enters into a case, it becomes a different kind of case. Ninety eight percent of the cases, 98 percent of all these criminal cases are a plea bargain, you cut a deal. But the cameras are on the D.A. They`re on the judge, and they`re on the defence attorneys so there are different agendas taking place.
PINSKY: So you`re saying that he couldn`t do it because of the cameras? Nobody would accept a plea?
SEIDLIN: The prosecutor may want the full four years in the can. They want him wearing a striped suit, going downtown. They`re going to have a hard time giving him something less.
PINSKY: You`re from New York. Didn`t they go up to sin- sing? Isn`t that?
SEIDLIN: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. I just want to make sure. So Ryan, you had something to say before I go out?
SMITH: Yes, real quick. We`ve spoken before to the lead defence attorney in this case, Ed Chernoff. He said that they wouldn`t want to take a plea even if they offered one, but indicated that one wasn`t offered. So I think Judge Seidlin has a great point here that the prosecution wanted to just go forward, wanted to see a conviction here. But there was no plea offered. So when there`s no plea offered, the defence has to move forward to trial unless they`re willing to just plead guilty.
PINSKY: Marcia, just give you the last word because you`ve been in front of those cameras, do you think that`s an accurate assessment of what we`ve got going on here?
CLARK: Well, I think it may be that the prosecution simply wanted to press forward with the charges they had and they didn`t want to compromise the case in any way. A plea bargain usually givers up something. And that would mean the prosecution would have to be willing to agree to some lesser term than the maximum. If you want the maximum, you`ve got to go forward. And that`s what they did. Now, remember this, let me just point this out, the prosecution did not overcharge this case. They didn`t go for first- degree murder.
PINSKY: I get that.
CLARK: They didn`t even go for second-degree, right?
PINSKY: I get that.
CLARK: So given what they`re already charging, I understand why they`d say, you know what, we`ve already given you a fair assessment of what you actually did. We want the maximum time for the actual crime you committed. And there`s no point in plea bargaining something like that. You can`t.
PINSKY: Very interesting. Thank you Ryan, Marcia, and of course Judge Seidlin. I appreciate it.
Up next, I`m joined by my HLN partner in crime, Nancy Grace joins us. Hear what she has to say about some of today`s testimony. Of course, you can get full 24-hour coverage of the Michael Jackson death trial at hlnTV.com/Michael Jackson. Don`t go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: It was Doctor Murray, calls me right away, and calls me right away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you asked to call 911?
WILLIAMS: No sir. I remember being scared, so I was just calling. I heard him making a lot of phone calls and then I found out the ambulance was there. I got there when the gurney was coming down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a gurney with Michael Jackson`s body on it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, NANCY GRACE SHOW: Bottom line, for those of you just joining us, tot mom, not guilty. The defense has prevailed. I wish you could see what`s going on behind me. People are just milling around outside the courthouse, like, what? What happened? It`s like they`re all shell shocked. They are just looking at each other, just wondering around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It is a privilege right now to welcome to my set the leader of the HLN prime-time team, the woman that put the tot in tot mom, and now she`s putting her feet on the dance floor with "Dancing with the Stars." With me now is HLN`s very own Nancy Grace. And Nancy has got a lot to discuss with once starting with the Jackson trial today and all the testimony about his kids seeing the lifeless body. Nancy thanks for joining us. I mean -
GRACE: Um, before we even get started, you`re the addiction specialist, and a lot of people have been asking me -
PINSKY: What do I drink there?
GRACE: OK, black coffee, people, nothing else.
PINSKY: It`s black coffee. Can you throw a little bailey`s in there?
GRACE: Now that we`ve established that, I`m ready.
PINSKY: And I`ll just say, methamphetamine is tasteless, but I know this guy over here, the stage manager will throw some of that in there. But I do appreciate it. You know, I`m the dancing bear. I`ve got to perform for these guys.
All kidding aside, this has been a rough day in the Jackson testimony. And you know it`s funny. I like to use a little humor too, but when this topic comes up, Michael Jackson, people are kind of intolerant, just the way they were with Casey Anthony. I mean it was such a - it`s been such an emotional trial for people.
My question to you is, do you think the defense is, will be able in any way to withstand the onslaught of this prosecution? Because it seems to me it`s the right charge, they`re throwing nails in his coffin all over the place.
GRACE: No. No, it`s not the right charge, number one.
PINSKY: Oh, not the right charge?
GRACE: No. This is undercharged. This should have been charged as a murder one. It`s a lot of - it`s very confusing, but murder one requires intent to commit the act. Not to kill. For instance, Doctor Drew, if I took a gun and held it to your head and pulled the trigger, and then went, uh, I didn`t mean to kill you, I only meant to scare you, it doesn`t matter under the law. The law presumes you intend the natural consequences of your act. If you throw down a piece of China, the law believes you meant to break it.
So by holding a gun to your head and pulling the trigger, the law assumes I mean to kill you. Shooting Jackson up in the arm with surgical anesthetic, super powered propofol, and leaving him in a bed surrounded by his own urine while the "doctor" goes in another room to chat up his mistress on the phone, then runs back in and goes, oh, he`s dead! Hey, he actually said, "anybody knows CPR?" He should go to jail for that alone. But the jury should have a choice, murder one, voluntary, involuntary. That should have been up to a jury.
PINSKY: So there should have been three charges, for them to decide amongst.
GRACE: Yes.
PINSKY: So they have undercharged. I mean do you think them maybe Casey Anthony is the reason they undercharged him?
GRACE: No, he was charged before the Casey Anthony`s trial went to fruition.
PINSKY: Because people keep talking about the Casey Anthony effect now, that people are so fearful of letting somebody guilty go free.
GRACE: Impossible. Look at the timeline. The charge in the Jackson case occurred before the not guilty in the tot mom trial. So there`s absolutely no correlation.
PINSKY: Have you dealt with something I`ve dealt with a lot in this town is physicians getting sort of dazzled by celebrities and it impairing their judgment. Is that something you`ve come across or had to deal with?
GRACE: Yes, I have, especially in California. But it happens everywhere. Wherever there are stars, even d-list celebrities, doctors, lawyers, everyone around them buys into whatever they want. But that`s why you have your oath as a doctor. To not be blinded by money, by fame, by celebrity.
PINSKY: I understand that. But I thought in spite of that, though, and it`s funny, I did an interview with another doctor earlier today and I`ve had this come up multiple times talking about Michael Jackson. Physicians saying the following thing, Oh, yes, I did x, y, and z procedure on Michael and then we became impede friends.
To me, that strikes my ear as so profoundly unethical that it borders on illegal, that I have a dual relationship with a patient. I`m his doctor and I`m his friend. You`ve got to be one or the other, right?
GRACE: Well, I think you know, you see it from your point of view, but I see it strictly as a lawyer, as a trial lawyer. And I think that the defense attempt to blame another doctor, Doctor Klein. He was Michael Jackson`s dermatologist for about 20 years. They`re trying to say that Doctor Klein got Jackson hooked on Demerol. Well, Demerol is not what killed Jackson. And this is not a civil case. We are not looking at what happened in the past. We are looking at what happened the day Michael Jackson died.
PINSKY: Well, it seems like they`re trying to put Michael Jackson on trial.
GRACE: They are which I disagree with blaming the victim. Now, listen, I was right there covering the child molestation charges against Michael Jackson, and I for one, believed some of the boy victims. But that`s not the issue here. Michael Jackson should not be treated any differently than any other murder victim, because if we don`t get justice for Jackson, who`s going to be there to stand up for you or me when it`s our time, when we need justice.
PINSKY: Absolutely, I agree. To me, it drives me insane that because somebody does or does not have addiction, that they`re therefore guilty or they`re on trial. You know, addicts need more help from the medical community. They don`t need to be held accountable.
GRACE: What makes it worse, Doctor Drew what Conrad Murray did is worse because he knew that Jackson was a junkie.
PINSKY: That`s interesting. Now, I want to warn viewers, I`ve got to show an image here that Nancy yesterday the prosecution shared Jackson`s death photo. Here it comes. Were they right to have done that? You know, the family had to be exposed to all of this. Is that something that`s necessary to play upon the emotions of the jury?
GRACE: Let`s refresh our recollection. This is not a slip and fall. This is not a torte case. This is not a "prove it" matter. This is a murder case. It`s a homicide. It`s the state`s burden to prove there was a homicide. And not only did they do that with this photo, but many of us, myself included, think of Michael Jackson as that cute kid "one, two, three."
PINSKY: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: Now, they`ve got to dispel that in the jury`s mind and make them see the stark results of Conrad Murray`s actions. That`s how Jackson ended up dead on that gurney.
PINSKY: Interesting. Now, be sure to get full 24-hour to the Jackson trial at hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson.
Up next, Nancy Grace waltzes on to the stage of "Dancing with the Stars" and she tells us what it`s like when we come back. Stay with us. There she is.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: I`m back with the shy Nancy Grace and her self-titled show airs right here before mine on HLN. Nancy, one thing people always ask me about you, where does your passion come from for the legal system and for justice?
GRACE: Well, Doctor Drew, as you know, I`m a crime victim myself. My fiance was murdered shortly before my wedding and my plan to be a Shakespearean literature professor ended then. When I finally kind of came out of it, I went to law school to become one of the first female special prosecutors in inner city Atlanta. And I guess you call it passion. I`ve always felt that it was my duty.
PINSKY: In the memory, was having been the victim?
GRACE: No, no, not necessarily in Keith`s memory, but for me, it was a call to action. I did not feel that I could sit in a classroom for the rest of my life. I felt that I had to do something.
PINSKY: I understand. I`m glad you did.
GRACE: Well, I want to lighten things up a little bit. And again, before I go to this, Nancy`s partner, I seem him standing right over there, I`ll ask him to come over here in a second, Nancy told me something very moving once about her passion, and I`m feeling a part of it right now, it`s just that we both share this, disdain or shock at how sometimes defence attorneys party and socialize in the face of -
GRACE: During a trial.
PINSKY: Yes, to me it`s really bothersome. And you had to drag your legal materials behind you.
GRACE: It was a triple homicide and I was trying it so low. And there were multiple defendants and each one had a fleet of lawyers, and I was dragging all of my evidence and research out of the courthouse one night, up a hill, and I looked in this fancy Italian restaurant and all the defence attorneys were sitting around the table, actually at that moment toasting.
PINSKY: And we all relived that at the Casey Anthony thing. It`s the end of this.
But Tristan, come on in here. We`ve got Nancy dance partner here. Tristan MacManus, come on in. Hey mate, how`s it going? How`s Nancy doing as a dancer? I know she as a prosecutor and as a television commentator, she`s top notch. But as a dancer?
TRISTAN MACMANUS, NANCY GRACE`S PARTNER, DANCING WITH THE STARS: Yes, she`s super.
PINSKY: Super?
MACMANUS: She`s super. She brings the same shoes than I suppose.
PINSKY: She doesn`t strike me as somebody who settles for less than perfect.
MACMANUS: Yes. Well, neither am I, so, we`re working well together.
PINSKY: You know, everyone, I`ve known a lot of people - we`re going to talk like you`re not here. So, I`ve known a lot of people who have been in Nancy`s shoes, working on "Dancing with the Stars" as a non-dancer, and they all are just stunned by how stressful it is and how difficult it is and how grateful they are for the great professionals that help them out. How has Nancy responded to your coaching?
MACMANUS: Yes, it`s been great. I mean, she`s been doing what I`ve been asking of her. Obviously, we knock heads sometimes.
PINSKY: Oh, tell me about that Nancy, what is that all about?
MACMANUS: I think everyone does.
GRACE: Yes. Well, look, we have very different personalities. I`ve been trained my whole life to be very analytical. I mean, I write out lists of my dance steps.
PINSKY: And you`re with an artiste.
GRACE: Yes, an artiste.
PINSKY: Must be very difficult, very stressful.
GRACE: Yes, and throw us in one rehearsal room for eight hours a day and explosions happen.
PINSKY: Nice. Makes good television though.
GRACE: I`m not saying anymore. I`m taking the fifth on anything else.
PINSKY: Nancy thanks so much for joining us. Tristan thanks so much for taking such good care of Nancy. We will be with you. I want to put the whole HLN prime-time TV, unfortunately, when you guys are taping, I`m doing this show. But I love to be there supporting you.
GRACE: You should come to rehearsals.
PINSKY: I`ll go to rehearsal. OK, deal. I`ve got to go. We`ll be right back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): The Michael Jackson death trial, day two. As a physician, I`m accustomed to seeing dead bodies, but today, we learned that the Jackson kids had to see their father lifeless. I`m explaining trauma and talking to the man who knows the family intimately.
And later, Michael Jackson`s death was a fatal collision at the crossroads of celebrity and medicine. I see this all the time. I`m breaking down the pieces of the puzzle. The physician, the addiction, and the drugs.
Plus, a friend and confidant of Michael Jackson speaks out for the first time.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": What would you say to Michael right now?
JOE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FATHER: Justice for Michael.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think he`s getting justice? Do you think he`s --
JOE JACKSON: Too early to tell yet.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s to early to tell?
JOE JACKSON: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you like what the defense is doing or do you think that they`re trying to shift the blame to Dr. Arnie Klein?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): That was HLN`s Jane Velez-Mitchell catching up with Joe Jackson outside the courtroom earlier today. The gentleman behind Michael`s father was here last night and wanted more time to express the views of the Jackson Family as well as his own.
He is Majestik Magnificent. He was a good friend and personal magician for Michael Jackson, and he`s still a very close friend of the Jackson Family. Welcome back, Mr. Magnificent. You and Joe left court early today, and you say he was frustrated. What kind of things -- what was he doing on the drive home? What was his mind-set?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT, CLOSE FRIEND OF JACKSON FAMILY: As I got time with that mess (ph). You have to understand, Mr. Jackson. Joseph -- it`s hard for Joe to sit and listen stuff that he thinks is a bunch of mess. He gets frustrated. So, he just wanted to leave, he told me. He said, I got sick. I walked out. I got tired.
PINSKY: Is it painful for him? I would think.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Yes, because he would like to get up and talk.
PINSKY: What would he say? If he would get up there, what would he say?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: I can`t answer that, but he would say something that would be truth.
PINSKY: Yes.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: I It would be truth. It might not like the words he use, but it would be truth. Leave my damned son alone. You know, I wish -- you know, you had Nancy Grace on the show a few minutes ago. I wish I could say some words to her. I don`t like Nancy Grace.
I think Nancy disgrace -- I mean, Nancy -- I don`t like her. I think she did Michael wrong on her show. I think she was horrible. Just the things she said, trying Michael in the -- you know, use their show to --
(CROSSTALK)
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: But I have to agree, I know, I agree with her what she said today.
PINSKY: Yes.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Michael is a murder victim, and he should be treated. Yes -- I`m agreeing with Nancy Grace on that statement. He should be treated equally and fairly like any other murder victim, because he was murdered. And I`m here today, Mr. Jackson told me to hello and told me to do his show. Joe told me -- I told him I was doing -- he told me to come into this show. I`m here on his behalf. So, let`s get down to this, OK?
PINSKY: Go.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Michael Jackson, between Joseph, La Toya, I know, different family members, was 100 percent murdered. All this other stuff about him killing his self and injecting his self a bunch of mess. This is a murder trial, as Nancy Grace said, I can`t believe I`m agreeing with Nancy Grace, but that`s what she said and she`s right. It is a murder trial.
PINSKY: Is Dr. Murray the murder?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Yes.
PINSKY: Flat-out?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Along with other people, too. He got -- let me say this. Of course, it`s legal, I can`t call him no names, but this is my personal opinion and my personal viewpoint. I want to call names, but they say I shouldn`t do that.
PINSKY: I`ve heard other interviews where people around Michael start getting very vague when it comes to --
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Well --
PINSKY: What is that?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Well, we don`t want to say nothing that`s going to mess up the prosecution. We don`t want to say nothing, so, you know, but there`s a lot of people involved that, you know, should be investigated that`s not being investigated, because Michael`s worth more to people dead than he was alive. But I will say this. Follow the dollar. That`s what it`s about. Money. Follow the dollar.
PINSKY: You mean, it`s like the TV show -- like the movie, "The Producers," where if they fail, they make more money, and so, they intentionally fail and did in the star?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Did you say that?
PINSKY: Dr. Seidlin -- Judge Seidlin said that yesterday.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: OK.
PINSKY: I`m just reporting what he said --
(CROSSTALK)
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: People coming up missing, you know?
PINSKY: There are people --
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: People coming up missing.
PINSKY: So, you think --
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Dying weird and stuff, do-do. Yes. I don`t know. I`m not saying anything.
PINSKY: Can you name names about that?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. They won`t let me loose to say what I want to say.
PINSKY: Who`s they?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: The family.
PINSKY: OK. So, you`re representing Katherine and Joe?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: No.
PINSKY: No.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: I`m representing Majestik Magnificent.
PINSKY: But you`re trying to follow what they like --
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Absolutely. I would never -- Katherine is a second mother to me, and I have nothing but love and utmost respect for her. And I would never, never ever do nothing to hurt her or her family.
PINSKY: And tell us again about your relationship with Michael. Who was he to you and what you know him to be?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: I never met a man with character and heart such as good as Michael. I`m going to tell you to Michael Jackson, OK? One time, Mike and I were walking into Hayvenhurst Mansion in the backyard, and there was a little bird on the ground, and the bird was dead. I heard somebody crying in the back, and I look around, I said, Michael, what you doing? He said, look there. And there`s little baby bird.
I said, OK. I said, what you want to do, you want to take the bird and put it in the ground or you want to bury it? And so, I`m not touching the bird. I say a prayer with you. So, he put the bird in the ground, said a prayer, climbed up in the tree, fixed the nest so no more birds would fall out. You and I would have walked on that bird and kept going. That was Michael Jackson. He loved --
PINSKY: Too sensitive?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: No. No. People should be more sensitive and have compassion.
PINSKY: Another thing I keep hearing about him is he was a great father with that caring and that compassion. How come he never had -- it seemed like he never had luck in romantic relationships. Why do you think that was?
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Mama had a lot to do that. Michael was no dog like me. See, I love women and I`m like, you know, I`m being honest with you, I would day them. Michael`s a classic act. His mother raised him. He`s a Jehovah`s Witness, which I have the upmost respect for him
PINSKY: La Toya once told me that was a big quality, that people missed that. People don`t know how much the Jehovah`s Witness meant to him.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: And that whole family structure from their mother, Katherine.
PINSKY: For particularly, La Toya and Michael, though, I think it was a big deal to them.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Yes. Yes. Yes. And Michael had a lot of, you know -- also, Rebbie, the oldest daughter would talk to Michael about this, called the truth, would talk to him about it and everything, and he grew up that way. So, when it comes to women, he wasn`t worldly like me or like all, you know, like rappers and stuff. He`s like -- you know, he wouldn`t go to -- he`s a class act, you know?
PINSKY: This is really -- I`ve only got about a minute left, but is this something you want to tell the world about how sad this is? I mean, this is really a sad story. He was a dear friend of yours.
(CROSSTALK)
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: This is what I want to say. The fans is supportive and keep doing what you`re doing. Michael loved you for this. It`s important. The fans are important. This is a tragedy. This doctor took away the greatest star in the history of the world, the greatest entertainer, and he`s somebody`s son, somebody`s brother, and my personal opinion, once again, he should spend the rest of his life in jail, take the key, throw it away, and never let him out.
You`re a doctor -- no, you did some thing that was unethical. You`ve got to pay. Thank you. I want to be on the Nancy Grace Show. I`ve got some words for Nancy Grace.
PINSKY: I`ll talk to Nancy. She`s going to go a rehearsal dancing. We can go and visit her --
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Nancy can`t dance!
PINSKY: Yes, she can. I`ve seen her myself.
MAJESTIK MAGNIFICENT: Don`t try to pick her up. She`s kind of heavy, you know?
PINSKY: You`re being mean now.
Up next, I`m joined by a group of medical colleagues to discuss and dissect the complicated relationship shared by Michael Jackson and his doctor, Conrad Murray.
Remember, you can get full 24-hour coverage of the Michael Jackson death trial at hlntv.com/michaeljackson. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TITO JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: If I have a chance to say anything to my brother again, I would just let him know that if he didn`t say nothing or do anything else for anyone else on this earth, he`s done a whole lot. He`s done more than most. And he`s accomplished a lot. And he`s a legend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED CHERNOFF, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What you said was, I checked the pulse oximeter to see his oxygenation. It was in the 90s, which is very good. I checked to see his pulse. It was normal. It was in the 70s, which was normal for Michael Jackson. And I sat and I watched and I left only when I felt comfortable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Now, there is a lot of medical detail in this trial, so I gathered a roundtable of my colleagues to weigh in, and together, we`re going to start breaking this down, try to understand what`s going on here. Joining me is Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN chief medical correspondent, host of "Sanjay Gupta M.D." and a neurosurgeon.
Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, who practiced his geriatric and internal medicine. He was also Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor before she expired. Speaking publicly for the first time, a friend and confidant of Michael is Dr. A.J. Farshchian from the Center for Regenerative Medicine in Miami. He was also a business partner and once treated Michael Jackson.
And finally, anesthesiologist, Dr. John Dombrowski. All right, guys. Now, the day Michael Jackson died, he had two main categories of drugs in his system. Vinnie Politan breaks it down here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VINNIE POLITAN, HOST, HLN`S "IN SESSION" (voice-over): 1:30 a.m., a 10-milligram tablet of valium. Two o`clock, 2 milligrams of lorazepam via IV. Three o`clock, 2 milligrams of midazolam, also via IV. Five o`clock, two more milligrams of lorazepam. 7:30, two more milligrams of midazolam. Murray says that Jackson was still awake at 10:40 when he decided to give the pop star 25 milligrams of propofol with lidocaine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Now, Dr. Dombrowski, I`m going to you first. That is quite a combination of medication. Now, I, myself, had a procedure last weekend where I was given 2 milligrams of midazolam. I was instantly asleep. I have no recollection of the procedure for an hour and a half. And by the way, it took me like 36 hours to really regain myself after that. 2 milligrams.
I`m a 200-pound man. Little Michael Jackson got 4 milligrams of that, 6 milligrams of Ativan, and a bunch of propofol on top of that. Doesn`t that suggest to you a high degree of tolerance, at least, to the benzodiazepines?
DR. JOHN DOMBROWSKI, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: I would agree with that. You`re exactly right. I mean, the testimony does show in the past where he has used a lot of medications to help him with his insomnia, and the majority of medications used was benzodiazepines valium-like medications. And he was taking them orally like Cheerios.
And then, he needed to ramp it up a little bit more to IV, Ativan, midazolam, things like that. These are all benzodiazepine agents. And again, what happens with, as you`re aware with addiction, you become tolerant. And you need more and more of these particular medications to get the kind of effect that you`re looking for.
PINSKY: Except you don`t get tolerant often times to the respiratory suppression effects, and then, you throw in some barbiturate on top of that. Do you -- any of you, all four of us here, five of us, anybody having opinion on whether the propofol metabolism was affected by all the other medicines he was receiving?
There was high levels of propofol in his drug -- in his blood after relatively low levels of exposure. Is it possible it was all the benzos that made it impossible for him to metabolize the propofol?
DOMBROWSKI: I can tell you just from my perspective as a clinical anesthesiologist is that this is what the individual who gave the medication, said he gave the medication, is 25 milligrams, a very small amount. Now, let`s just take him at his word that`s what he gave. That is an incredibly small amount, especially, as you`re alluding to, that it would have this kind of profound effect.
I will tell you, in my understanding, I mean, obviously, the liver, the hepatic enzymes are revved up to metabolize benzodiazepines, but they also metabolize propofol. The way you wake up from propofol is not really by metabolism, but more importantly, by moving away from the blood drain barrier, and it goes to other places. That`s how you really --
PINSKY: Oh, that`s interesting. So, it`s not a metabolic issue. Now, Dr. Murray had ordered several hundred bolls of propofol over a four- month period from a pharmacist in Las Vegas. In fact, it equaled not one, not two, not three, but four gallons of the drug. Obviously, and it`s hard to say then, make the case that he was trying to wean him off the drug, as he claimed.
And Michael, you know, there`s evidence that he was clearly under the influence of something, at least some of the time. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: When people leave my show, I want them to say, I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life. Go. Go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Just to illustrate my point. In front of me here is the amount of milk that was ordered by -- there it is. Look at that. That is quite astonishing amount. Dr. Farshchian, I want to go to you next. Michael, I guess, came to you when he was about to have his third child and said he wanted to get clean for his kids.
And I`ve heard this from other people, too, that he -- and we`ve heard tapes of him talking about his addiction and going to treatment for it, and when he`s gotten off substances, he was quite serious about it. Is he the kind of guy that would inject himself or would impulsively orally ingest a bunch of medicine?
DR. A.J. FARSHCHIAN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FRIEND & CONFIDANTE: Hello, Dr. Drew. Firstly, I want to say that being here, speaking to you live is certainly surreal. It reminds me of the time that we would sit down with Michael Jackson and watch "Larry King Live." Back then, Michael was grossly misunderstood, but he would just laugh it off.
But now, Michael is even more misunderstood. I want you to understand that Michael Jackson, himself, is being way over exaggerated, health wise, everything you hear about. No, Michael actually was afraid of medications. But he hired and believed that as physician -- he believed in physicians.
He thought that physicians know a lot, so he would listen to them, and if he would trust them, he would follow their ordeals. To be giving you exact about this situation, let me give you a timeline. Michael Jackson started his second chapter of life in about 2000, 2003. He was very active.
He was going to studios every day. He was singing with Barry Gibb. He was very active. I`m hearing that I don`t have much time, but I`d like to go over this timeline more with you and explain essentially how Michael happened.
PINSKY: OK. I want to talk to Sanjay really quickly here. Now, you were contacted by a source inside the defense team and you, I guess, spoke about this possum theory, that Michael was pretending to be asleep while Murray walked out of the room so he could inject himself.
Was this -- this to me, does not make -- you know, I`ve dealt with people for years with these kinds of impulsive behaviors, and I`ve never seen anything like that.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT, NEUROSURGEON: Yes. I mean, what they described was pretty remarkable. First of all, they, you know, these sources close to the defense team say that they conceded that Conrad Murray injected Michael Jackson with propofol. And then, they say he waited around ten minutes, and then -- before he left the room.
That`s significant, Drew, as you know, because they say the propofol is a quick-on, quick-off sort of drug. So, within ten minutes, they say, it should have essentially been out of his system, is how they put it. What they say next was pretty startling, though, Drew, to your point.
They say he essentially was feigning sleep near the end, playing possum, that was their words, not mine, until Dr. Murray left the room, and then, when Dr. Murray left the room, they say he got up and took more pills, in this case, lorazepam. They say he took eight 2 milligram tablets and also injected more propofol.
So, that`s part of, I think, what you`re going -- where you`re going to hear the defense going again. That`s what they`re laying out. They say a lot of this took place after Dr. Murray left him in that room.
PINSKY: And finally, Dr. Kapoor, this case seems to have stirred you quite a bit. It`s very emotional, I`m sure, to sort of have these issues brought up again. Can you tell me how you`re feeling about this? What your take is on this case?
DR. SANDEEP KAPOOR, INTERNIST, ANNA NICOLE SMITH`S FORMER DOCTOR: Well, it`s been a couple of days, and when my opening -- during my opening statements, too, it was extremely emotional to have everything kind of go out there and see stuff on powerpoint and have everything kind of outlined.
I think the opening statements were, for me, very surprising, for the defense to come up with seemingly implausible medical issues. For example, the eight tablets, oral tablets of lorazepam just doesn`t make any sense, that he died suddenly. I mean, that was --
PINSKY: Right. I`m with you on that. The sudden death does not hold water at all. I mean, you have to stop breathing for a while or under breathe for a while and then people die. I`ve got to take a break here.
Celebrities often doctor shop and some doctors can be kind of dazzled by celebrity, which can be a deadly combination. But what about the average person? With the onslaught of information online, do doctors treat the average person, somehow, differently? We`ll talk about that when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just praying for the family right now. You know, I just hope that they stay strong and that justice shall prevail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know for a fact that when my brother died, people --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Welcome back. Whether it is a celebrity or an average person who doctor shops to get what they want, it`s dangerous. My buddy, Tom Sizemore, my patient, Tom Sizemore, I should say. He`s a guy I have great respect and love for. I`ve treated him for addiction, because of, they want -- maybe if it`s enabling Hollywood lifestyle, he has struggled with his addiction.
He is sober now, and he`s joining Joy Behar next after this show to talk about experiences with addiction. And he has a little theory about who he thinks is responsible for Michael Jackson`s death.
I`m back with my panel, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Sandeep Kapoor, Dr. A.J. Farshchian, and Dr. John Dombrowski. And I just have a question for the panel at large. I sort of teased it this way as the idea of celebrity adulterating the physician/patient relationship. Is that something that is contributed to this Michael Jackson Situation?
Does anyone have an opinion about that? Is it about money and fame and is that where this relationship between the patient and the doctor went off the rail?
KAPOOR: I certainly think that --
PINSKY: Dr. Kapoor first. I`m sorry. Go ahead.
KAPOOR: I certainly think that there is a difference in a celebrity, and there`s definitely a lot of more pressure there. And in this case, I think there`s a lot of money. I mean, I don`t know an internist that makes more than 150 grand a year, let alone a month. So, you know, it had to come down to money. Anytime you put money with healthcare, put it ahead of there, I think you end up with judgment issues.
PINSKY: Somebody else was ringing in? I didn`t hear who that was. That John?
DOMBROWSKI: John Dombrowski here.
PINSKY: Go ahead.
DOMBROWSKI: Basically what happens when you have money like this, it really short-circuits that real important doctor/patient relationship. I have to be able to tell the patient saying, you know what, I love you very much, but this is the wrong thing to do for you.
Often as an anesthesiologist, and I have a pain medicine practice. I deal with people with chronic pain, with opiate addiction. And they come to me just like they would you, and they say, well, this is what I need, and I have to look at them and say, this is not what you need. And again - -
PINSKY: And let me --
DOMBROWSKI: Go ahead.
PINSKY: I`m going to interrupt you, Dr. Dombrowski. I`m just saying that it`s what people don`t appreciate that aren`t physicians is that you get into a battle with those patients.
You have to spend the next half hour fighting with them as to why you`re not -- why this is in their best interests, why you`re not doing something wrong for them, and that you care about them and hold them in that frame as opposed to just pulling out your prescription pad and writing something and sending them out the door, which is, for some doctors, a very compelling exit.
DOMBROWSKI: You`re exactly right. I mean, to your point, it`s a lot easier to do a 15-second scrip, I`ll see you in 30 days. This is not the practice of medicine. That`s not what anesthesiologists and physicians and physicians on the most part do, you know, for a living.
We are honest with our patients at all the time, whether they want to hear it or not. And that might be, this is not the right road you`re going on. I would like to show you a different way.
PINSKY: And it`s quite a battle. It`s quite a battle when you get into that with the patients. I tell you, they can get very hostile and aggressive. Sanjay, you wanted the last word here. Go ahead.
GUPTA: Well, no, I`m just going to say, you know, I think the relationship, itself, probably matters as well, Drew. As you know, I mean, even as you were introducing Tom Sizemore, you sort of said, your buddy, but also your patient.
And I wonder -- I mean -- I think -- I don`t know if you`ll agree, I think, that`s part of the issue sometimes is it harder to be the doctor if you`re also the friend of somebody like him, for example, in your situation. But I think that`s part of the issue here as well, Drew.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree with you, and on multiple occasions, I`ve heard physicians sort of refer to Michael as their friend. And that`s exactly why I caught myself there. I think Tom, I`m friendly with him. He`s not my friend. I was his doctor. I`m not his doctor right now. But you can`t have a dual relationship with somebody with addiction.
You`re either one or the other, and that`s where Michael went off the rail. That money and fame. We`ll continue to cover this story.
Thank you to my panel. We will see you next time.
END
