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Nancy Grace
Day Two in Michael Jackson Death Trial
Aired September 28, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. We are live, LA, where Jackson`s live-in Caribbean doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial for manslaughter, accused of shooting Jackson up with the super-powered surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving the music superstar to die surrounded by his own urine. A stunned courtroom hears eerie audio recorded by Jackson`s doctor, Jackson (INAUDIBLE), slurring his words.
Bombshell tonight. Jackson`s inner circle takes that jury inside the final shocking and deadly hours of music superstar Michael Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray was working not for the best interests of Michael Jackson, not for the health of Michael Jackson. Dr. Murray was working for $150,000 a month.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael was not a drug addict.
MICHAEL JACKSON: I became increasingly more dependent on the painkillers.
I`ve never seen nothing like this. Go. It`s amazing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense is going to try to say all these horrible things.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said there`s some cream in Michael`s room that he wouldn`t want the world to know about.
JACKSON: When people leave my show, I want them to say, I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were no signs of drug addiction even from the autopsy reports.
JACKSON: I became increasingly more dependent on the painkillers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Demerol did not kill my brother. It was propofol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. The sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson, Jackson`s live-in doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial for manslaughter. And in the last hours, Jackson`s inner circle takes that jury inside the final deadly hours of music superstar Michael Jackson.
You want to tell me that you can walk into a multi-million-dollar mansion in California and dope up a music icon until he dies surrounded in a bed of his own urine and then walk scot-free? No!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How would you describe his performance that night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was excellent. It was high-energy. He looked pretty good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson (INAUDIBLE) pronounced dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children were standing outside of his room. Paris was on the ground, balled up crying.
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PHYSICIAN: Call me right away. Please call me right away. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At no time during that phone call did he ask you to call 911?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you ask Conrad Murray about Mr. Jackson`s overall health?
JACKSON: I want them to say, I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life. Go. Go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He volunteered that Michael Jackson is perfectly healthy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: After a jury sees a photo of Michael Jackson`s dead body, following audio of him with his speech slurred, incoherent, talking almost out of his mind, today even more bombshells dropped in the Michael Jackson trial.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session", in court today. Jean, what happened today?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Here are the facts. At 12:13 PM, June 25th, 2009, Conrad Murray frantically leaves a message for Michael Jackson`s personal assistants, Call me quickly, call me quickly. He calls him back. He said, Something went wrong, a reaction. Michael Jackson having a reaction. 911 is not being called. The head of security at the property gets a phone call from the personal assistant...
GRACE: Stop. Stop. Stop...
CASAREZ: ... goes into the house...
GRACE: Stop! Stop!
CASAREZ: ... goes in the bedroom...
GRACE: Stop! Stop! Stop! Jean, let me get this straight. You`re telling me it`s 12:00 -- about 12:00 noon? Did you say 12:00 PM or 12:00 AM?
CASAREZ: 12:13 PM, right after noon.
GRACE: OK, lunchtime. They get a call from Conrad Murray, and Murray calls not 911, not doctors, not security, he calls a personal assistant? That`s who you call when you want to send somebody out to go shopping for you or to make a Xerox copy! He calls an assistant when Michael Jackson is lying there dead in a bed surround with his own urine? He calls a personal assistant? Why didn`t he call 911, Jean?
CASAREZ: We don`t know. We don`t know that. But what we do know is the head of security then went in the house, then went up to the bedroom, and there lay Michael Jackson on the bed, Conrad Murray giving him CPR on the bed with one hand, the children in the hallway crying because they see something terrible has happened.
And what this witness testified, Nancy -- Michael Jackson had his eyes open wide. His mouth was open. He knew immediately he was dead.
GRACE: Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! I think I heard you say giving CPR with one hand?
To Dr. Panchali Dhar, doctor of internal medicine and anesthesiology, very important tonight. Doctor, thank you for being with us. Giving CPR with one hand? I mean, look, I had to learn CPR to work at a 4H camp. I had learned CPR before I could take my children home from the hospital. I`ve never heard of doing CPR with one hand. What`s that?
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, INTERNAL MEDICINE, ANESTHESIOLOGY: Well, this just goes to show you how incompetent and clueless Murray is to begin with. So one-handed CPR on a soft bed? Come on. I mean, everybody knows we need to press down with two hands, two inches in depth, 100 compressions a minute.
GRACE: OK. Jean Casarez, pick it up right there. So the security people finally get to the room. Now, it`s my understanding these security people very rarely came to the house, that they stayed outside in, like, a trailer and then they get a call to come in. They come in, and this is what they find -- the children in the hall crying, Jackson`s eyes wide open. Then what happened?
CASAREZ: And then Conrad Murray asked if anybody knows CPR. He calls out of the bedroom. And so one of the security goes to try to assist him. But what they testified that they saw in that bedroom -- they saw an oxygen tank. They saw an IV machine. And then 12:22 is when 911 was called by one of the security personnel.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Everybody, we are live here in LA, camped outside the courthouse where the Michael Jackson trial is going down today. The jury has stunning evidence. You could have heard a pin drop in that courtroom.
To Mike Walker, senior editor, columnist, "National Enquirer." You know what, Mike? What I don`t understand -- and I`m going to get back to the facts in court today -- is this should have been charged as a murder one because murder one requires intent to do the act. The act is not to kill. If I hold a gun to your head and pulled a trigger and go, Oh, I only meant to scare you, I didn`t mean to kill you, I still had intent to do the act. The act was putting the gun to your head. That is what the law requires.
If Dr. Conrad Murray shot Jackson up with propofol and then left him there, that is the act that resulted in death. This is a murder one. And the evidence makes my stomach hurt!
MIKE WALKER, "NATIONAL ENQUIRER": Well, it`s very obvious from the testimony -- and it`s great to actually see it now. We`ve reported on all of this at "The National Enquirer." -- that Dr. Murray made no effort to call 911. I mean, imagine calling the assistant. As you said, you call the assistant for a bowl of, you know, noodles.
The other thing I wanted to make clear is, you heard him refer to cream -- Michael wants to, you know, hide the cream. He wouldn`t want people to know about the cream. Do you know what Michael called propofol? We`ve reported it on many times. He called it his milk, Give me my milk. So I presume that that`s what they are talking about here. The only other possibility is...
GRACE: Now...
WALKER: ... the vitiligo cream he used.
GRACE: ... Mike Walker, you jumped ahead. We haven`t gotten to that part of the facts yet!
OK, back to you, Jean Casarez. Get me up to what Walker is talking about, where, you know, they`ve all gone to the hospital. Then Conrad Murray wants to go back and clean up the scene. That`s what that was all about. He wanted to clean up so cops and household personnel couldn`t find out what the hey he had been doing to Michael Jackson! That`s what the facts look like to me.
CASAREZ: All right. They go to UCLA Medical Center. Michael Jackson is pronounced dead. And both of Michael Jackson`s inner circle testified today that Conrad Murray said, I got to go back to the house because I`ve got to hide the cream. Michael Jackson wouldn`t want the world to know. And also, I need to get something to eat. I`m hungry.
The defense fired back by saying, Wait a minute...
GRACE: What? Whoa! What...
CASAREZ: ... you`re the inner circle...
GRACE: Wait! Wait!
CASAREZ: What?
GRACE: Are you telling me they pronounced Michael Jackson dead, and Conrad Murray says, Hey, let`s go to Denny`s? Is that what you just said? He wants to go get something to eat?
CASAREZ: That was their direct testimony. But the defense said, Wait a minute. You`re the inner circle. You want to pin this on Conrad Murray, and you all said that to law enforcement later on, when you were all together, and you had made up your stories by then.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. We`re live outside the county courthouse, where the Michael Jackson trial is going down.
Out to the lines. Linda in Florida. Hi, Linda. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for being such a great advocate for everybody out there.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m a registered nurse, and obviously, this is hitting close home to in the medical community because we do have an understanding of what this is about. And I wanted to set something straight here. There`s a lot of talk is going around about who gave the fatal dose. A patient cannot have any other drugs in their system, be healthy, no alcohol, nothing, and if you give them propofol and you`re not monitored, that will kill them. It suppresses the central nervous system breathing centers and you stop breathing.
Why was there not any machine, breathing machine, cardiac machines in that room? That man was left unattended. It`s a horrible, horrible, horrible thing. This man is a discredit...
GRACE: Hold on. Linda in Florida, hold on. I`ve had propofol one time, and the minute they put it in your arm -- and it was in the hospital, of course. The minute they put it in your arm, you`re out. And then the minute they take it out, you`re awake. That`s the way it works.
Linda in Florida, I was hooked to up to all sorts of machines. You`re saying a breathing machine. What else should Michael Jackson have been hooked up to?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, what the propofol does, it works in the medulla of the brain. That`s with your respiratory center is. If somebody isn`t having an ambu (ph) bag, which is, like, the bag that you pump with a mask on the face, or is intubated, like you are when you have surgery, with a tube down your throat to breathe for you...
GRACE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is what the anesthetists do. They breathe for you when you under general anesthesia, which is what this, quote, unquote, "doctor" did...
GRACE: Got it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... to Michael Jackson in his bedroom, is put him in general anesthesia with no monitoring. It`s -- this is not a man that agreed to do no harm. He did harm.
GRACE: Well, everybody, I`ve got a lot of e-mails about Michael Jackson`s prior molestation charges. Let me tell you something. That`s not what this is about. This is about a defenseless man dying at the hands of his doctor. And if we don`t seek justice for Jackson, regardless of what may have happened in the past, who`s going to seek justice for you when your time comes or me when my time comes? It doesn`t matter who the victim is. What matters is that this jury render a verdict that speaks the truth.
As we go to break, everyone, I want to take this chance to thank you again for your e-mails, your calls, your words of support on my "Dancing With the Stars." My partner Tristan and I survived a second week. Thanks to you and the judges, we were not in jeopardy. And as I promised you last week, we nailed the quickstep.
Come Monday night, I promise to do even better with the waltz. One hundred percent of my proceeds will go directly to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So please vote.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson`s death was a homicide.
JACKSON: The final curtain call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bottom line is there was a doctor present.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what Jermaine has to say. It`s justice.
MURRAY: Your Honor, I am an innocent man.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Los Angeles medical examiner ruled that the singer died of acute propofol intoxication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was negligent of the doctor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A perfect storm in his body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That killed him innocently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Justice for Michael!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even if Michael asked for propofol...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way to save him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the doctor should have said no.
911 OPERATOR: Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Just the doctor (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All totaled, there were 12 separate bottles of propofol recovered from Michael Jackson`s mansion.
JACKSON: I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) looking very guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You want to tell me you can walk into a home in California in this country and have a doctor shoot you up with surgical anesthesia, shoot you up in the arm and leave you to die? And then you walk -- he walks scot-free? Absolutely not! Michael Jackson dead. Cause of death, propofol.
We are live in LA, taking your calls. His children standing out in the hall there in the home, crying. They see their father lying on the bed, his eyes staring out fixed as Conrad -- Dr. Conrad Murray tries to perform CPR with one hand, and turns around and says, Hey, anybody know CPR? Oh! Oh! No!
Natisha Lance, our producer at the courthouse, what was the jury`s reaction as they`re hearing all this?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, I wasn`t inside the courtroom, but I can only imagine that the jury was taking all of this in. I can tell that yesterday, when this audio was played, this recording that we have heard of Michael Jackson with the slurred speech, a voice that we had never heard of Michael Jackson before, his family was in the second row, and they were surprised to hear this.
They were astonished by it. Katherine Jackson seemed to be especially shaken by this recording. And then we heard again today that these witnesses also had heard Michael Jackson and seen him in that state before, too.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what was the jury`s reaction?
CASAREZ: Nancy, this jury is so engaged. They are so on the edge of their seats, with their notebooks and writing. They are completely opposite of the Casey Anthony jury, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, Jean, I`ve got ask you a question. For instance, when the jury sees -- you know, people have a vision of Michael Jackson in their head. I do. I remember him growing up. I was about three inches from the TV -- One, two, three, baby, it`s you and me. That`s how people think of Michael Jackson, or in adulthood, entertaining. Or maybe they think of him at his trial when he was charged with child molestation.
When they see his dead body or you see him covered, shrouded in that sheet, being taken down, it`s very jarring. What did the jury do when they hear Conrad Murray goes, Hey, who knows CPR?
CASAREZ: I think they were in shock. For much of this trial, I think they have been sitting there just stunned. And when they walk into the courtroom, they walk straight toward the family that`s sitting in the second row as they, the jury, take their seats so close to Katherine and Joe Jackson.
GRACE: What did Conrad Murray do, Jean Casarez, when the jury hears that he goes, Hey, who knows CPR? He should have put his hand down on the table in shame! What did he do?
CASAREZ: We haven`t heard cross-examination on that particular point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution makes the point Dr. Murray never tells Michael Jackson`s personal assistant to call 911.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in LA,. camped outside the county courthouse, the Michael Jackson trial in full swing. Ellie, what I`m trying to find out is this. Dr. Conrad Murray -- Jackson is dying or dead. And he turns around and says, Hey, anybody know CPR? He`s sitting in the courtroom as this evidence is coming from the witness stand.
What did he do? He should have put his head down in shame!
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, Nancy. When Dr. Murray`s been listening to all of this evidence, he has had no expression on his face. He has remained serious the whole time. Only time we saw him react is yesterday. He started crying when he heard about how other patients were going to testify in his favor.
GRACE: When So This came out today, he just acts like, Hey, they`re talking about somebody other than me. So it`s, you know, look around the courtroom, like, Who? Oh, me? Yes, I did ask if anybody knows CPR.
We are taking your calls live. Right now joining me, a very special guest joining us exclusively tonight, Lou Ferrigno. This is Michael Jackson`s decades-long friend, his fitness guru. Lou, thank you for being with us.
LOU FERRIGNO, JACKSON`S FRIEND AND FITNESS GURU: I`m sorry, repeat that again? We have a bad audio here.
GRACE: Yes. Sure. I said thank you for being with us. Let me ask you, how long did you know Michael Jackson?
FERRIGNO: OK. First of all I want to say I`m glad you`re not dancing tonight. I admire what you`ve been going through. Now, getting to the question, I`ve known Michael for 20 years. I`ve been his personal trainer for 20 years. And he never wanted to me to publicize we were close friends. And I trained him for the HIStory tour and also prepared him for the last tour.
GRACE: Lou Ferrigno, what was his condition, his health just before he died?
FERRIGNO: Say that one more time?
GRACE: How was his health just before his death?
FERRIGNO: Well, I saw him a couple of weeks before, and I was going to rejoin him a week before. I mean, his health was great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The singer`s arms were riddled with marks, and veins in both arms had collapsed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jackson had serious...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CONRAD MURRAY: Your honor, I`m an innocent man.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": Giving him a slew of drugs leading up to the hours before his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re in for a very electrifying trial.
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: Michael Jackson passed away on Thursday, June 25th.
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: My brother was not healthy and they didn`t care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The Michael Jackson trial in full swing. We are all live here in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse as the testimony pours from the witness stand. It`s enough to make you just turn away in disgust when you hear how Michael Jackson, the king of pop, truly the king of pop, was killed.
We are taking your calls but joining me right now a very special guest. He`s also taking your calls. Lou Ferrigno. This is Jackson`s decades-long friend, his fitness guru, and many of you may know. Ferrigno is the "Incredible Hulk." And he stuck with Jackson for many, many years.
Lou Ferrigno, again, thank you for being with us. Describe for me the last time you saw Jackson. What happened?
LOU FERRIGNO, MICHAEK JACKSON`S DECADES-LONG FRIEND AND FITNESS GURU: Well, the last time I saw Michael Jackson was about 2 1/2 weeks before because I was leaving to go on a tour for motivational speaking. And he hugged me and he said, take care of yourself. I said, Michael, I`m going to see you in about 10 days. He said, take care of yourself. I love you.
It gave me a funny feeling because I knew something was wrong because he was under tremendous pressure and that really concerned me.
GRACE: Lou Ferrigno, when you say he was under tremendous pressure, what do you mean?
FERRIGNO: I mean he was in debt for, like, $400 million and he needed more time to train for the tour. He had a lot of pressure. He had -- he had the family behind him. He`s rehearsing. Was doing voice lessons and the training.
I just think that because he wanted to make the greatest comeback that he had so much pressure on himself and I think the body just gave out because it was just too much. It was too much for a short period of time.
GRACE: You know, I`m just thinking about what you`re saying. Lou, go ahead.
FERRIGNO: I think that -- I was going to say that he was in phenomenal shape. He was very attentive. Very alert. (INAUDIBLE) He did everything I told him to do exactly and he was very determined. He was planning to make a tremendous comeback and very, very positive and he was the happiest I`ve ever seen him.
GRACE: Well, Lou Ferrigno, exactly what were you telling him to do? What kind of training were you giving him?
FERRIGNO: Well, he was doing a lot of core training. I went to his house as a matter of fact. He used to come to my house two years ago but apparently because of the family he needed to sleep late so we did a lot of core exercises. Light band, weight training. He wanted to -- shoulders more, he wanted to have more of that (INAUDIBLE) because he wanted to come back as a new Michael.
And he wanted to restructure his whole body. So I designed a routine for him. And basically he did everything I told him what to do because he trusts me and he didn`t trust anybody else because I knew his body well.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this, Lou. Did you ever see him without his clothes?
FERRIGNO: Yes. That`s a good question because when I trained him sometimes we would do cardio. He would come down here with a suit, a tuxedo suit, pants, and a white T-shirt. So after we did 10 or 15 minutes of cardio, he would take the jacket off, and he looked great. He may be a few pounds lighter but his skin looked great. He looked great.
And I stretched him out like maybe two or three inches on the floor, stretching him out. And he looked fine. I mean basically sometime he had a shirt on --
GRACE: OK, so you never saw him without his clothes?
FERRIGNO: I saw him -- he took the jacket off. I saw him with his T- shirts. Sometime he had his shirt off.
GRACE: OK.
FERRIGNO: Because he was warming up, he was sweating.
GRACE: What I`m getting at, Jean Casarez, is, wasn`t his body covered in track marks?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": You know, that has not come out in the evidence yet. I would think the defense will want to bring that out, maybe the prosecution. But we don`t know yet.
But Dr. Arnie Klein came into this trial today loud and clear from the witnesses that said they would take him to the dermatologist office sometimes every day. During the course of a week. When he came out his speech was so slurred you couldn`t understand what he was saying and he acted like he was intoxicated.
GRACE: Now isn`t it true, Ellie Jostad, that Arnie Klein was his longtime dermatologist and has now been alleged that Klein is the one that got him addicted to Demerol?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes, that`s right, Nancy. That`s what the defense claimed in their opening statement. And a couple of the witnesses today were asked, especially the head of security, Faheem Mohamed, said that he took Jackson to Dr. Klein`s office very often and sometimes he would leave, seeming sort of woozy.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, joining us, Gloria Allred, L.A., John Burris, San Francisco, Alex Sanchez, New York.
Gloria Allred, it`s my understanding the defense is going to try to push the blame off on Dr. Arnie Klein, whether Klein did or didn`t get Jackson addicted to Demerol. That`s not the question.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: No. I think the reason that Demerol is the issue is because the explanation is that Demerol is the reason that he couldn`t sleep. And then if he couldn`t sleep that then he needed the propofol but, of course, it`s not appropriate to give propofol for the purpose of putting someone to sleep on a regular basis.
It`s supposed to be used in the hospital under certain conditions which we`ve all discussed and those were not the conditions that apparently existed in the home.
GRACE: John Burris, aren`t we going down a slippery slope here with the defense trying to claim all this is really because Dr. Arnie Klein, a dermatologist, got him hooked on Demerol? He didn`t die of Demerol. He didn`t die going to the dermatologist. He died of propofol. That is what the autopsy says.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s clear. I think it`s a bit of a red herring in one sense but I think what the defense is trying to demonstrate is that Michael Jackson had a lot of different sources of drugs and trying to create the impression that he may very well have given some drugs himself to all kinds of mechanisms.
So I think what they`re really trying to say is look, we don`t really know if this doctor, in fact, gave him the lethal drug. We know that he couldn`t - he didn`t have to do it in the manner in which he did but that doesn`t mean he should be held legally responsible for it. So what the defense really is trying to do is misdirect this in many ways.
GRACE: That doesn`t even make sense.
BURRIS: Well, it does --
GRACE: That didn`t even make sense.
BURRIS: It does makes sense.
GRACE: You started off with some real long sentence about we don`t know if he gave him the propofol, blah, blah -- I don`t even know what that --
BURRIS: No, he clearly gave him propofol. There`s no doubt he gave it to him.
GRACE: Yes, I know.
BURRIS: But at the same time -- look, of course he gave it to him. But doesn`t mean he killed him and he intended to do it. It means that, you know, he`s --
GRACE: OK. Maybe I`m crazy but doesn`t the autopsy say, Alex Sanchez, that he died of propofol injection?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, it does indicate that that was -- could have been the cause of his death. But you know what? I`m a little astonished, too.
GRACE: Was the cause of his death.
SANCHEZ: Well, I`m astonished here because -- everybody is trying to blame Klein, they`re trying to blame Murray.
GRACE: I`m not blaming Klein.
SANCHEZ: No one is placing any blame on Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson was the primary author of his own death. He was a junky for more than 20 years.
GRACE: You know what? That`s really interesting.
SANCHEZ: Let`s face it. Did you hear that tape that I heard in court?
GRACE: I don`t recall anywhere in the criminal code that the murder victim, the voluntary manslaughter victim is responsible for their own death.
SANCHEZ: That`s right. If you are engaged --
GRACE: That`s a whole new thinking. In fact I`ve never heard of a defense attorney trying to blame the victim again.
SANCHEZ: No, no, no. He was drug addict for more than two decades.
GRACE: So?
SANCHEZ: And I don`t see why -- mention any of that.
GRACE: So?
SANCHEZ: In addition, Nancy, you seem to be accepting evidence --
GRACE: Because it doesn`t matter.
SANCHEZ: -- that doesn`t even make any sense. This business about Conrad Murray --
To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. Look, I`m just calling it like it is. He`s the king of pop. But he was an addict. He was a junky. And to me that makes Conrad Murray`s actions even more reprehensible because Jackson was so defenseless.
You can`t say to a junky hey, quit using dope. It doesn`t work like that. They can`t stop. They got to have help. He took advantage of Michael Jackson, left him laying in that bed to die, hooked up to drugs, Patricia. Why are people trying to blame the victim?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Because that`s the easiest thing to do. Michael Jackson was a junky. He may have been. He had all kinds of Benzos in his system. He must have been pretty strong to be able to tolerate it.
But Dr. Murray should have known better. He also lied and spoke out of both sides of the mouth. He` weaning him off it but then he orders four gallons. No way.
GRACE: Back to Mike Walker, senior editor, columnist, "The National Enquirer."
You know, Mike, I noticed this vain trying to blame Jackson because he was a junky and look, yes, I covered the child molestation trial. I thought the victims were telling the truth. That doesn`t matter here.
I remember many times, Mike Walker, when I would have to convince a jury to give me a murder conviction when the victim, the murder victim was a dope dealer. All right? You know how happy juries were that dope dealers were out of their community?
But the point is it doesn`t matter who the victim is. And I don`t like people trying to blame Jackson because he was junky.
MIKE WALKER, SENIOR EDITOR, COLUMNIST, "THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER": Dr. Murray is supposed to be professional. He`s acting and has always acted more like a doc in a box who was for hire. So many celebrities hire doctors to give them drugs. They become drug pushers. Dr. Murray knew Michael Jackson was not in perfect health. To give him propofol was criminal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was going to be a multicity tour?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medical abandonment. Directly led to his premature death at the age of 50.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson, life at the end was being controlled and manipulated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have a doctor there?.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conrad Murray was giving Mr. Jackson nightly doses of propofol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Murray comes down the stairs of the stairwell that leads into the kitchen and he`s screaming, hurry, go get prince. Call the security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you to call 911?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said where are you? I said I`m downtown. And he said --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in L.A., camped outside of the courthouse bringing the latest of the trial of Michael Jackson, his doctor, his live-in doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, a Caribbean doctor on trial for hooking Jackson up, injecting propofol, a surgical anesthetic straight into his arm and leaving him.
Where did he go allegedly, Jean Casarez? To go talk to his girlfriend on his cell phone? Where was he?
CASAREZ: That hasn`t come in yet, but that`s part of the timeline that`s going to be critical to the prosecution`s case. It`s going to show that he was out of the room for quite a while and that`s while talking to a girlfriend.
GRACE: Was he married?
CASAREZ: I think so. There were a lot of --
(CROSS TALK)
CASAREZ: It goes on and on. There`s a lot of women.
GRACE: So Conrad Murray is married. He hooks Jackson up to an IV of propofol. Leaves him to go chat to his mistress on the phone. Now what can you tell me about a condom catheter and bottles of urine sitting around in Michael Jackson`s bedroom?
CASAREZ: It`s true. It is true. And it was --
(CROSS TALK)
CASAREZ: Well, I don`t want to explain it. OK?
GRACE: What`s a condo catheter?
CASAREZ: You -- why don`t you ask the doctor. I don`t want to explain it.
GRACE: OK, fine.
CASAREZ: Think about it.
GRACE: Doctor Panchali Dhar, just tell me in a nutshell, I`m just a lawyer, all right? What`s a condom catheter? What`s that?
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE, AUTHOR OF "BEFORE THE SCALPEL": It looks like a condom. It fits right over the penis like a condom would and the person can urinate through a tubing and it collects in a bag and you can collect urine --
GRACE: OK. Fine. You know when you`ve tried as many murder cases as I have, you`ve heard it all. You`ve seen it all.
OK. Let me get this straight. So, this doctor allegedly shoots Jackson up, puts a catheter, a condom catheter on so he can just go ahead and hopefully not wet the bed and leaves him like that? He comes back in. He`s dead. Then he can`t even perform CPR on him?
Out to the lines, Marcia in Pennsylvania. Hi, Marcia, what`s your question?
MARCIA, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. You actually answered it at the beginning of the show so I have another one four. In their opening statement, the defense opening statement, they said that he swallowed it. Would it in fact would have been different which I totally think he should be on a murder -one charge, too. And I think it`s ridiculous for him to say that he did it to himself. I don`t he was going to do that to his kids.
GRACE: Let me ask you, Marcia, you`re saying that in the defense`s opening statement they said that Jackson swallowed the propofol?
MARCIA: I think that`s what they said. I could be wrong.
GRACE: OK, don`t go anywhere. Don`t go anywhere. Don`t go anywhere.
Ellie Jostad, I know the defense is claiming that, A, Dr. Klein got him hooked on Demerol and B, Jackson shot himself up. Did they say he swallowed propofol?
JOSTAD: No, Nancy. And I -- they either used the word he administered the fatal dose or he ingested the final dose. But they didn`t explain. Did he shoot it up himself or did he swallow it. We don`t know that yet.
GRACE: So you`re right, Marcia in Pennsylvania, they left that open. I guess they`re is going to figure out towards the end of the trial what their defense really is.
So, Dr. Dhar, is it possible to ingest propofol or shoot yourself -- your own self up with propofol?
DHAR: Well, first of all, I don`t think Michael Jackson swallowed propofol because I`ll tell why. If he had a substantial amount of propofol in his stomach, he would have vomited that out during CPR. Nobody says that there was vomit on the bed in the ambulance or in the emergency room. It would be like what`s this white stuff coming out of his mouth. You know, all of that were just -- we could say they would have gotten to his lungs. So, I would nix that lame excuse right now and move on.
GRACE: OK. To Brian Oxman, a special guest joining us, also outside the courthouse here in L.A., attorney for Joe Jackson in a civil wrongful death suit.
Brian, thank you for being with us. The family has just got to be sick about this whole thing, and are the children, are any of Michael Jackson`s children going to have to take the stand?
BRIAN OXMAN, JOE JACKSON`S ATTORNEY IN WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT: Nancy, all this testimony is devastating to the family. Janet Jackson reacted terribly when they showed the autopsy photograph in the courtroom. Mrs. Jackson, Katherine Jackson, just stared, she was stunned.
We`ve talked about those photographs being shown among the whole family and when it really happened it was just -- it was devastating.
And as to the children, Katherine Jackson really doesn`t want the children to testify. She would prefer not to. But the attitude is that these are Michael Jackson`s children. They are his greatest works. And they are going to go and do their duty. They are going to do what`s require of them. They`re going to make their father proud. And if they`re called to that witness stand they are going to do it.
GRACE: You are seeing side-by-side photo evidence in court. One Jackson healthy, rehearsing just before his death. The other his dead body on a gurney just a few hours away later. I know it may seem harsh but this is the reality of what`s going down in an L.A. county courtroom.
To Brad Lamm, board registered interventionist, author of "How to Help the One You Love."
Brad, thinking about the family now that I`m hearing Brian Oxman talking, they had to just feel guilt themselves not that they deserve it, but family members of addicts, they try and they try and they try, then the addict dies and they`re left wondering, what did I do wrong? Why couldn`t I stop him? But in this case, they did try to help Jackson.
BRAD LAMM, CERTIFIED INTERVENTIONIST, AUTHOR OF "HOW TO CHANGE SOMEONE YOU LOVE": Nancy, first of all, thank you for covering this story like you are. Because this doctor, this knucklehead, is a murderer, I believe, full stop, amen. He`s just like the drug dealer on the street.
And lots of families try in different ways. I would suggest that families really circle the wagons and don`t give up and try to interrupt the person`s addiction, because Michael Jackson had so many yes-people around him, so many people on the payroll that were giving him legal drugs, and I hope this doctor -- I really, I hope he goes away for decades.
GRACE: We are live in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse, bringing you the latest. Michael Jackson, music icon, dead in his own bed, surrounded by his own urine. A doctor hooks him up intravenously and leaves him to die. Today, we want justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON: Michael was not a drug addict. The defense is going to try to sell these horrible thing --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lorazepam and propofol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in L.A. A doctor sitting in a county courtroom, charged in the death of the music icon, Michael Jackson.
Out to the lines. Dawn in Connecticut. Hi, Dawn, what`s your question?
DAWN, CALLER FROM CONNECTICUT: Hello, Nancy. I love you, I love you. Thank you for taking my call. I`ve tried for two years and I finally got through.
GRACE: Thank you for calling.
DAWN: I have a question. I`d like to know -- I like to know why he is not just going to let this trial bypass, take a plea deal, knowing that he is a medical doctor. He did give the drug to Michael, regardless of what he was the last person with him. Then I want to know, out of all the hours he was with him, how long when he wasn`t with Michael he found him the way that he did? And I would like to say thank you for taking my call again. I love you.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am, Dawn in Connecticut. Jean Casarez, how long was he out of that room?
CASAREZ: We don`t know yet. That`s a question of fact. And a plea deal was never offered, a plea deal was never asked for.
GRACE: Well, now we know the answer to Dawn in Connecticut`s question.
Everybody, we are staying camped out at the courthouse until we see justice in this case.
Let`s stop now and remember Marine Lance Corporal Christopher Blake Rodgers, 20, Griffin, Georgia, killed, Afghanistan, awarded a Purple Heart, National Defense Service medal, Afghanistan campaign medal.
Loved the outdoors, camping, building models. An accomplished artist. Had a passion for all types of aircraft. The first to always volunteer. He never met a stranger. Favorite day, his birthday he shared with his father.
Christopher Blake Rodgers, American hero.
Thank you to our guests, but our biggest thank you to you for being with us, and happy birthday to one of our stars, Dana. Loves Keith Urban, traveling, wine -- that`s news to me -- raising money for the Live Strong Foundation, but most of all, loves her family in Florida and Texas.
Happy birthday to California friends, "Dancing with the Stars" wardrobe and styling experts, Howard and Steve. They`ve been making those glam outfits for me.
Happy birthday, guys.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. We will be live here in L.A. and until then, good night, friend.
END
