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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Jackson`s Children Witnessed Doctor`s CPR Attempt
Aired September 29, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s detestable to me, and I just think he`s incompetent. He never should have been a doctor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I walked into the room and turned towards my right, I observed Mr. Conrad Murray giving chest compressions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We support Dr. Conrad Murray. He`s an outstanding doctor. We believe when the facts fall, he will be exonerated.
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, MICHAEL JACKSON SECURITY: I asked Dr. Conrad Murray what happened. And he said, "He had a reaction. He had a bad reaction."
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST: Why are you here from Spain?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, to support Michael, to tell people that we don`t forget about him. I`m also to get the most (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we can get. I think for years on and off.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How big is this in Europe, particularly Britain?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s huge. Everybody wants to know every -- every breath, every cough, every tear, every bit of drama. It`s huge.
ALVAREZ: He reached over and grabbed a handful of vials, and then he reached out to me and said, "Here, put these in a bag."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously, it was a doctor who put the Propofol in an IV bag. It was Dr. Murray that was getting rid of all of the evidence and all the vials.
TOM MESEREAU, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: How he tried to cover it up was a disgrace, how he didn`t come clean with the paramedics and the cops and the doctors at the hospital is a disgrace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Conrad Murray murdered Michael Jackson. He`s a murderer! Conrad Murray is a murderer!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Vivid, horrifying images emerging from the Michael Jackson death trial.
Good evening. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from outside the Los Angeles courthouse. We found out today that Michael Jackson`s too oldest children, Prince and Paris, were allowed inside their father`s bedroom and saw their father presumably dead, with his eyes wide open. These poor children.
And I`ve got a warning for you, you might find this photo disturbing, but this is a photo of Michael Jackson on the day of his death. This is what Prince and Paris saw. Their father, presumably dead. They became hysterical. No young child should have to see something like that.
Michael Jackson`s chief of security told the court that no one stopped Michael`s children from coming into the room. Indeed, it was Dr. Conrad Murray who actually called for Prince. Oh, get Prince! Prince is 12 years old at the time. And this doctor, instead of protecting these children or calling 911, is making phone calls to other people and calling for a 12- year-old boy, who becomes completely distraught.
And his kid sister follows him into the room, and then ends up collapsing to the ground and falling in a circle, hunched over. It was a horrifying reaction from Paris after she saw her father, presumably dead, on his bed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVAREZ: They were right behind me, and Paris screamed out, "Daddy!"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you heard Paris scream out "Daddy," was she crying?
ALVAREZ: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was Michael laying on the bed, palms up, looking slightly to the left at that time?
ALVAREZ: Yes, he was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would he have been actually looking slightly towards Paris` location?
ALVAREZ: Yes, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: These poor children, they`ve been put through so much. Do you remember the heartbreaking image of Paris at her father`s funeral, which happened, well, right here in Los Angeles, nearby, where I am right now. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL`S DAUGHTER: Ever since I was born, Daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That poor girl. But when it was too late and the damage was already done and the children had witnessed the horror of seeing their father dead with his eyes open on the bed, then Dr. Murray tells the security guard, "Oh, get the children out of the room." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVAREZ: Dr. Conrad Murray said, "Hurry, don`t let them -- don`t let them see their dad like this. Don`t let them see their dad like this."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The person who witnessed all of this, who admits he, quote, "froze" when he saw Jackson`s body finally called 911, 20 minutes after Michael Jackson`s body was discovered, because that`s when Dr. Conrad Murray finally told him to call. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did anybody witness what happened?
ALVAREZ: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor`s been the only one here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So did the doctor see what happened?
ALVAREZ: Doctor, did you see what happened? Sir, we just -- if you can, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re on our way. We`re on our way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t know about you, but this testimony, I think, puts us right into the bedroom of Michael Jackson at the time of his death. It`s almost like you can visualize Michael Jackson lying on this bed and the chaos all around him.
What do you think? Give me a call, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Tonight, an ISSUES exclusive. We are joined now by the former bodyguard of Michael Jackson, Mike Garcia.
Mike, thank you for joining us. I know this is an emotional day for you. I know you loved Michael Jackson`s kids and you loved Michael Jackson. I personally feel so bad for them after hearing this testimony of how they ended up in the bedroom of their father, Michael Jackson, at the time, presumably that he was dead.
His eyes were open, there was no pulse, and Paris drops to the ground and starts crying hysterically and Prince is there, distraught. You know these kids. What are your thoughts and feelings as we hear all this?
MIKE GARCIA, FORMER BODYGUARD FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: When I saw it today, you know, it was very tragic. You know? We said earlier that, you know, we know the relationship between Mr. Jackson and his kids, and just to hear that today was very heart-wrenching. And, you know, it`s terrible to hear that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me ask you this. I`m going to play some sound for you, and then I want you to tell me, based on what you know, having spent so much time with Paris and Prince and Blanket, for that matter, what these kids are going through and how they would handle it. Because they`re very sophisticated kids, and they`re very intelligent kids and they`re very well-spoken kids. They`ve seen a lot in their young lives, being the children of Michael Jackson, traveling the world with him when he was a nomad.
But Alberto Alvarez, another security guard, testified Jackson`s two oldest children, Prince and Paris, came into the room and saw their father on the bed with his mouth and his eyes still open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVAREZ: Dr. Conrad Murray said, "Hurry, don`t let them -- don`t let them see their dad like this. Don`t let them see their dad like this."
And I proceeded to turn around to the children and kind of ushered them out and said, "Kids, don`t worry, we`ll take care of it. Everything is going to be OK."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So that`s my big issue. Prince and Paris in the room. Take a look at these kids. They`re beautiful, and there`s little Blanket. Adorable little boy. And these kids have been through so much, Mike Garcia.
You know, after Michael Jackson was acquitted in 2005 in his child molestation trial and these kids were obviously much younger then, but it was 2005. He was a nomad. He left Neverland. He and his kids traveled the world. They went to the Middle East. They went to Ireland. They ended up in Las Vegas. That`s where you were working for them, and you got to know them.
What are these kids like and what kind of strength do they have that they can stand so strong and speak so -- in such articulate manner, given everything they`ve been through? Describe them.
GARCIA: Well, I mean, as you can see, as a result of Mr. Jackson and how he single-handedly raised them. You know, these kids are very special. The way they -- the way carry themselves, the way, you know, the way they react to things. You know, they`re far, far more mature than -- you know, than their age.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you know Alberto Alvarez? Because he testified today, and he`s a security guard who worked with them. Do you know him?
GARCIA: Yes, I do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So he was a good guy. I mean, he testified today and he seemed to withstand a withering cross-examination. They tried to trip him up, but he stuck to his story.
There he is, leaving court today, as a matter of fact.
Tell me -- tell me about him, because his life has been shattered. He says now he`s had financial problems. I mean, the wreckage -- and Joe Jackson`s leaving, by the way, court right now. I`m going to show you a live picture of Joe Jackson leaving court.
But you just saw that bodyguard. How much wreckage has this created, this death, for the people whose livelihoods depended on Michael Jackson?
GARCIA: It`s created, you know, a lot of heartache. You know, the whole situation is tragic. You know, as far as Alberto Alvarez, he`s a very stand-up guy, along with -- along with Michael Williams. You know, it was a pleasure working with these guys. They carry themselves in a very professional, you know, and carry -- and have a lot of integrity.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you ever -- did you ever deal with Dr. Conrad Murray, because you`re based in Las Vegas, and Michael Jackson and his kids met Conrad Murray in Las Vegas. Tell us about your opinion of Dr. Conrad Murray?
GARCIA: You know, when he came -- when we first met him, we met him in the garage of the house. And he came -- he seemed very, you know, very pleasant. He seemed that he had the best interests in -- for Mr. Jackson, but as you can see, you know, there`s a lot of things that don`t add up as you watch the trial.
But I didn`t know him personally. He was more of an acquaintance.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Somebody had described him as sleazy. Would you call him sleazy?
GARCIA: Sleazy, no. I mean, like I said, it was basically, we brought him over, you know, to serve the kids when the kids were sick, and that, you know, as far as sleazy, I couldn`t comment on that, because he seemed a little bit more interested in...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did the kids like him?
GARCIA: I`m sorry?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did the kids like him?
GARCIA: Again, you know, once we got onto the property, he went inside the compound and, you know, that was behind closed doors. So whether they liked him or not, I couldn`t comment on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
We are taking your calls on this: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. We`re talking again exclusively with the bodyguard who has taken care of Prince, Paris, and little Blanket and getting his reaction to this extraordinary testimony today in the Michael Jackson death trial. 1-877-586-7297. More in a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael self-medicated. Why -- hey! If you love Michael so much, why didn`t you go to his house and get him off drugs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t on drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pharmaceutical drugs he was getting. For years, pharmaceutical drugs in Hollywood. Hollywood killed Michael! Dr. Murray didn`t. Hollywood killed him!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Educate yourself. You don`t know what you`re talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His energy was very nervous. And frantic and he was shouting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he shout?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Get help. Get security. Get Prince."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did he ever direct you or request that you call 911?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. The children were crying and screaming. And the next thing we did, we started hugging. And we came together, and we held hands, and we started praying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We have another exclusive interview on a day of absolutely explosive testimony. And as the Jackson family is in the process right now of leaving court -- and we will show you as they leave, we`ll go to a live picture and show you the individuals leaving -- I want to bring in Hamid Towfigh. You`re speaking to us exclusively tonight. You were a deputy D.A. here, in other words, with the prosecutor`s office, when the Jackson family came in and they were told. What -- and what was their reaction?
HAMID TOWFIGH, DEPUTY D.A.: Well, you know, then this crime came -- went down, those of us in the D.A.`s office who were prosecuting and charging the heavy cases, the heavy murders, the gang-involved murders and those cases, we knew that this was a second-degree implied malice murder.
But at the same time, we figured that our office was not going to charge that. They were probably going to charge involuntary -- involuntary manslaughter. So I was there the day that Dave Walgren from the major crimes division came with and met with the entire Jackson family. I myself was in the hard-core gang division of the district attorney`s office and...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was discussed?
TOWFIGH: Well, they took the Jackson family, particularly Jermaine and La Toya, who I saw, into a private room to tell them about their filing decision.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And their filing decision is involuntary manslaughter. That`s what Conrad Murray is charged with.
TOWFIGH: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s just do it in people terms, because the people are not -- they`re not lawyers, so they`re listening to this. You`re saying that the Jackson family was brought in and the prosecutors are telling them, "Hey, we`re going to charge this guy, Dr. Conrad Murray, with involuntary manslaughter."
What did you think he should be charged with and what was the reaction of the Jackson family to that news?
TOWFIGH: First of all, their reaction was that they were aghast. They were not happy. Specifically La Toya was not happy. Jermaine was not happy. I saw Randy Jackson expressing "Four years, four years." That`s what he was saying, because...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that`s the maximum that you can get if Dr. Conrad Murray is convicted of this crime.
TOWFIGH: Yes. And four years...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If this is a huge victory for the prosecution, the most that he can get, four years behind bars. So the family wanted what? What did they want?
TOWFIGH: Well, they wanted justice at that time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What charge?
TOWFIGH: They never said what charge that they wanted, but they were aghast at the fact that he was only facing four years. And Jane, let`s not forget, that`s about the same time that Lindsay Lohan was facing. She was facing three years for stealing a necklace from a store.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, good point. Good point. What do you think he should have been charged with, Dr. Conrad Murray?
TOWFIGH: First of all, the L.A. crimes office does not charge involuntary manslaughter. They do the very heavy murders, the very complicated cases.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m going to repeat my question. What do you think that Dr. Conrad Murray should have been charged with?
TOWFIGH: Second-degree implied malice murder. It`s a life sentence. That`s the appropriate charge. It`s actually easier, in my opinion, to prove than involuntary manslaughter.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me ask you this, and you`re being a good sport. I`m grilling you here. I just want to get to it, because we only have so much time. You say that he should be implied with -- charged with implied malice. But you heard the prosecutors. They`re saying he`s negligent; he`s a bad doctor; he deviated, but they did not say that he intended to kill Michael Jackson.
Do you disagree? Do you think he intended to kill him?
TOWFIGH: He did not. But under California law, implied malice murder does not require an intent to kill. You do not need to improve an intent to kill.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Fascinating.
TOWFIGH: That`s why it`s second-degree murder. It does not require that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I`m going to play something. Because we had testimony today of Dr. Murray ordering some bodyguards, one in particular, according to him, to the hide evidence. In fact, it`s actually destroy evidence. So I think we have that. Let`s listen to what we have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you think of any reason why Dr. Murray would think you would conspire with him to hide evidence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Argumentative.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Assumes facts not in evidence. Council`s testifying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have that kind of relationship with him, that you would -- that you would just simply hide evidence for Dr. Murray?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. He never said he was hiding evidence. He said he was following...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Counsel -- sustained.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Essentially, the defense is trying to trip up some of these witnesses. The witnesses are saying -- a bodyguard, "Hey, Dr. Conrad Murray told me to take a bag and put a whole bunch of vials in it. And he put a bunch of vials in it. Then he told me to take the saline bag, which had Propofol in it, and put it in another bag, i.e., hiding or even destroying evidence.
TOWFIGH: Jane, that bag that had the saline solution with the Propofol in it, that was a murder weapon. Dr. Murray was trying to hide the murder weapon.
And let`s not be mistaken here. He didn`t give him CPR properly or not, because he knew Michael Jackson was dead. But he was trying to hide the murder weapon. That`s implied malice murder. That`s consciousness of guilt. That`s what he should have been charged with.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very well put. Well, I think you make an excellent point. Unbelievable stuff. We`ve got more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALVAREZ: He reached over and grabbed a handful of vials. And then he reached out to me and said, "Here, put these in a bag. Now place that bag in a brown bag. Move that bag and put it in the blue bag."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And then you see this. This is the prosecutor, holding a bag of, well, it`s like a saline bag, but inside it is evidence of Propofol. So we are trying to understand. And remember, in confusion, there is often reasonable doubt.
We have heard the defense say that they believe that Michael Jackson killed himself by giving himself the fatal dose of Propofol. This is going to be the main contention of the defense. Of course, the prosecution says, nonsense. There`s no way that Michael Jackson could have dosed himself.
You say you have proof that the defense theory can not be correct.
TOWFIGH: The defense is going to fail. First of all, in their opening statement, they did not tell us if their theory was based on self- injection or self-ingestion, by swallowing the Propofol. That`s very interesting.
But under both theories, they`ll fail. First of all, Propofol, or Diprivan, is not orally bioavailable. That means that if you swallow Propofol, it will not cause the reaction of death.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK.
TOWFIGH: That`s in the medical literature. You can ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta about that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about if it was -- if Michael Jackson somehow got an injection of it or opened the drip?
TOWFIGH: That`s also not possible, because according to the coroner`s report, Michael Jackson had general anesthesia levels of Propofol in his blood. If you ask most anesthesiologists, they`ll tell you, that`s about 200 milligrams or higher of Propofol, OK, under general anesthesia.
The syringes that were in the room of Michael Jackson were 10 cc syringes, which is the equivalent of 100 milligrams. That means he would have had to have injected himself twice, two 100-milligram injections of Propofol, to get the levels that the coroner said that he had. That`s not possible, because after the first 100-milligram injection that Michael Jackson supposedly gave himself, he would have passed out.
And besides, Propofol is a very painful drug. That`s why they mix it with Lidocaine. Michael Jackson had Lidocaine in his system. They mixed Propofol with it, because when it goes in your blood, it`s very painful. So had Michael Jackson self-administered this, which he didn`t, he would have screamed, especially at 110 pounds. He was very feeble. And Conrad Murray would have heard him in the other room, screaming while he was talking to the cocktail waitress.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think what you said is brilliant. I think it`s brilliant, and I want everyone to hear it again. Because what you are saying is he had so much Propofol in his system, according to the autopsy report, enough for major surgery. That`s what it says in the autopsy report, which I have somewhere here in this big pile of papers. And the bottles weren`t large enough for him to administer that much in one fell swoop, drip or shot or whatever.
So that he would have had to have used two bottles and, at the time of administering the first one, he would have been knocked out, so he wouldn`t have been awake to administer the second one. Is that what you`re saying?
TOWFIGH: Exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Now, what about if there was -- you know what, I think you`ve got it there. I do. I mean, I think that that`s -- we`re going to ask Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who`s on in a minute, but you actually presented a great argument. Have you shared this with the prosecutors, your buddies, who you used to work with?
TOWFIGH: I think Dave Walgren is a very bright prosecutor, among the best of the best. So this should be coming down...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got it. All right. Stay with us. more in a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael did this to himself. Michael had 12 people in that house. Dr. Murray tried to help him. Dr. Murray did not kill him, all right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He appeared very nervous.
Paris was on the ground, balled up crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he oftentimes leave the office looking a little tipsy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Murray asked the question, does anybody know CPR?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you to call 911?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson was lying there, his eyes were wide open.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he appear to be dead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: "This Is It" wasn`t it. There was much more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: Breaking news. On ISSUES last night, we found out that defense sources, the people on Dr. Conrad Murray`s side, they`re claiming that Michael Jackson was, quote, "playing possum". That he was pretending to be asleep in his bed, then popped out of bed and when Dr. Conrad Murray was out of the room, popped eight pills of Lorazepam and then somehow injected or somehow got himself a whole bunch more of Propofol. This is after Dr. Conrad Murray is out of the room, and then puts himself back in the same position in his bed, and basically gives himself the fatal dose.
But today, Tom Mesereau, the very famous lawyer who successfully defended Michael Jackson in his 2005 child molestation trial called the defense theory utter nonsense.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM MESEREAU, FORMER MICHAEL JACKSON ATTORNEY: It`s fantasy. It`s speculation. It`s a desperate defense. And the only possible witness to that would be Conrad Murray. And after he didn`t come clean with the paramedics, the police, and the physicians at the hospital, how can you believe anything he says?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And there`s another issue today. Testimony about a bottle of Propofol found inside Jackson`s IV bags; there`s a bag and there`s apparently Propofol inside. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BODYGUARD: Well, I was detaching it from the IV stand, the bag was at my eye level, so I was able to notice that there was a bottle inside the bag. At the bottom of the bag, there was what appeared to me, like a milky white substance, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We are joined tonight by Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN`s chief medical correspondent; as well as Allison Triessl, noted criminal defense attorney. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for joining us.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Happy birthday, by the way.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, thank you, yes. It`s my birthday.
ALLISON TRIESSL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Happy birthday.
GUPTA: Working -- working as usual.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And they got me a very nice vegan cake here at HLN. I`m very happy about that.
But we`re hearing a lot of backlash to this defense theory, and a lot of people are saying, and you broke the story, that the defense sources are going to -- this is what they`re going to do. This is going to be their game plan.
GUPTA: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you had Tom Mesereau and this other attorney saying, it can`t be true because, well, he had so much in his system, enough for major surgery, that the bottles weren`t big enough for him to inject himself once, and once you`ve gotten one injection, you`re out, and you can`t do the second one.
GUPTA: Right. And I think that that`s a reasonable theory. And all along, I think people have said, look, what they`re describing is remotely possible, but very unlikely. The one thing you have to remember is the way that Propofol sort of breaks down in people`s body is dependent on their liver function.
And it`s also dependent on -- and this is a bit morbid to say it -- it depends on whether they`re still alive. When you`re no longer alive, you`re not breaking down the Propofol really that much at all. You`re breaking it down somewhat, which is why the hospital blood versus the autopsy blood had different levels of Propofol in it, but your metabolism, obviously, slows down a great deal.
So this whole conjecture -- you heard this as well -- that he died instantly. You heard that from the defense in the opening statements. If he did die instantly and had just received Propofol, it may have stuck around longer.
You`d have to really sit down and do the math to figure it out. Do the levels in his body at time he was at the hospital -- does it match with how much they say he received while he was in his home? Who knows? But if he died instantly, you would have a higher level of Propofol than if you, you know, someone had a circulating bloodstream.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So in other words, it was sort of sitting there in his system not being processed because he was dead, and therefore, it might seem higher than it would have if he had remained alive?
GUPTA: Correct.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, I find this fascinating because I`m not a doctor. I`m not a medical expert, and I`m getting confused. Ok. I`m getting confused and guess what; the jury is probably getting confused too. And when the jury gets confused, Allison Triessl --
TRIESSL: It helps the defense.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- reasonable doubt. Can they muddy up the waters here so much with the milligrams and the megagrams and this gram and that gram to the point where the jurors` heads are spinning with medical information and they throw up their hands and say, "We don`t know what happened, that`s reasonable doubt."
TRIESSL: Well, we`ll see what`s to come, but today, I mean there was some really damaging -- just hearing that the kids were present and she screamed out "Daddy". I mean that`s pretty damaging stuff.
I think when the experts get on, that`s when the defense really should start attacking and there`s a lot of confusion with all that, just like you and I. We don`t understand how the body breaks down Propofol and how much could be in there, but common sense does say how is he going to self-ingest this? How is he going to inject this himself? That doesn`t make sense.
And jurors come here, like we do, with their common sense, and they say, wait a minute, there`s an IV bag, there`s some milky substance in it, there`s the Propofol bottle, he`s laying there, eyes open. He didn`t do this to himself.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hmm, well, there`s one thing we all can get, and that`s CPR. That`s pretty simple. Now, apparently, Dr. Conrad Murray, a cardiologist, did not know how to do CPR correctly.
Let`s listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I walked into the room and I turned towards my right, I observed Mr. Conrad Murray giving chest compressions to Mr. Jackson. He was using one hand, sir. He was giving chest compressions in this manner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Gupta, we all know, anybody who`s watched "CSI" or "Law & Order", you don`t do CPR with one hand on a bed.
GUPTA: No. And something, obviously -- he`s a cardiologist. I mean, most basic people who have taken basic CPR know this. It`s two hands. The reason you don`t do it on a soft surface is because you can`t get the actual compression of the sternum against the heart. Your hands are actually pumping the heart, that`s what you`re trying to do, and he wasn`t doing it correctly.
I mean, you know, one of a couple of things comes to mind. He could have panicked, which is possible, or he thought that his patient was dead. In other words, there was nothing more that he was actually going to do, so he was sort of going through the motions.
One thing I do want to point out, I think when you hear he`s shouting out to the room, "Does anybody here know CPR," what you also hear subsequently to that is that he was subsequently doing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation. That`s relevant because, you know, when you`re doing CPR and mouth-to-mouth, you do have to do it in tandem. So someone`s pushing on the chest, someone`s doing mouth-to-mouth; so he could have been asking for someone to do the chest compressions while he went to the head of the bed and started doing the mouth-to-mouth.
Who knows, but I bet you that`s what you`re going to hear from the defense. It wasn`t that he didn`t know how to do CPR. I mean he must know how to do CPR, it could have been that he was, you know, doing --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, here`s something that`s even more fascinating, Joey Jackson, criminal defense attorney, Alberto Alvarez said that, Dr. Conrad Murray does this mouth-to-mouth, but then after a couple of breaths or whatever, looks up and goes, "I think this is the first time I`ve ever done mouth-to-mouth, but I have to do it. He`s a friend."
To me, this is very disturbing on a number of levels. First of all, that he thinks there`s something yucky about doing mouth-to-mouth when somebody might be dying and it`s a life or death thing. And secondly, that he`s saying he`s doing it because he`s a friend. He`s his doctor. If that`s true, than this guy is like a little cuckoo in the head.
JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, listen, Jane, a lot of damning testimony came out today. The issue is going to be how the defense explains it. And that`s ultimately what it`s going to come down to.
I mean in terms of whether he knew CPR or not, we can all know that if it`s a frantic situation, you`re panicking, you`re confused, and whether you`re a doctor with his credentials or otherwise, you might not be in your proper state of mind.
In terms of even getting to the issue of whether he hid the evidence, the focus has to be -- because I think that`s credible whether he hid that -- I think it was credible. I think the focus is to be look, "I knew my client was dead, I was trying to preserve and protect his reputation at that time. I knew media would be all over the place and he has a right to attorney -- excuse me -- to patient/client privilege. We don`t want everybody to know that."
So there are certain things, Jane, that could be explained here. It depends on how they`re explained.
Finally, with regard to the emotion of his children, that`s not damning. That`s what happens. Children are going to be emotional. Adults are going to be emotional in death. The fact is --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ll tell you what`s damning.
JOEY JACKSON: -- who killed him. That`s the problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s damning -- excuse me, Joey, Joey, what`s damning is that this doctor, instead of calling 911, runs around hysterically, and asks for Prince, a then-12-year-old boy. I don`t understand that. That is, to me, a very bizarre thing, that a medical doctor, ok, Allison Triessl, when there is a crisis, is running around and asking for a 12-year-old boy, the son of the victim.
TRIESSL: Common sense, you call 911. You call 911.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Unless you`re covering something up.
TRIESSL: Well, as a defense attorney, it`s a very hard argument for me to make that, hey, well, he was a doctor so he didn`t think that the paramedics could help. That`s silly. I mean when there`s an emergency and there`s a crisis, you call 911.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But even his defense attorneys are saying now that Michael Jackson was dead. He died instantly. So if Dr. Conrad Murray --
(CROSSTALK)
TRIESSL: I don`t know anybody --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: -- knew he was dead --
TRIESSL: So he was intentionally going through the motions?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was thinking about -- he could have been thinking about well, what do I do now? How do I deal with this situation?
All right. We have unbelievable interviews coming up; an interview exclusive with the former general manager and spokesperson for Michael Jackson next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi. Here I am on assignment in Los Angeles, covering the Michael Jackson case, and I`ve got so much to research and read. But you know what; I don`t have to use these plastic bags. No. Because they last a thousand years or so. I got these.
These little puppies, I carry them around and anything I need to put in, boom -- one, two, three, it`s done. And I can carry a whole bunch in my bag. Now, how hard is that?
You know, you can be environmentally sensitive, even when you`re on the go. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell and that`s your green word.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael self-medicated -- hey, if you love Michael so much, why didn`t you go to his house and get him off drugs?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wasn`t on drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the pharmaceutical drugs he was getting? For years, pharmaceutical drugs in Hollywood. Dr. Murray didn`t kill him, Hollywood killed him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Educate yourself. You don`t know what you`re talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, a lot of debate outside court. Who killed Michael Jackson? Dr. Conrad Murray is on trial for involuntary manslaughter. Some people think it should be more serious charge, because the most he can get is four years, and there`s even talk that even if he`s convicted, he could end up getting probation, or just a short amount of time behind bars. That has a lot of Jackson fans really upset.
I want to bring in another exclusive guest tonight, Raymone Bain, who has -- well, she spent years traveling the world with Michael Jackson. She was Michael Jackson`s spokesperson and representative during, for example, his molestation charge, the trial for which he was found not guilty on all counts.
In fact, Raymone, I often tried to talk to you and get sound from you or get a comment from you as I covered that trial. So you were there, I can attest to that.
Now, we are hearing a lot of shocking testimony today from Kai Chase, who was Michael Jackson`s personal chef; from Michael Jackson`s bodyguard, that basically Dr. Conrad Murray allowed the kids, in fact, called for Prince, to come into the bedroom where Michael Jackson lay, presumably dead, with his eyes open, and that it completely traumatized the kids. Your reaction to what these poor kids have been through.
RAYMONE BAIN, GENERAL MANAGER FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: It`s heartbreaking. I find it absolutely unconscionable. And what is so hurtful, Jane, to listen to the testimonies thus far. It`s hurtful because Michael Jackson is no longer here.
And let me tell you something. I`m sitting here, with me today is one of my colleagues from the Michael Jackson company, and we listened intently to your segment just a few minutes ago with Dr. Gupta. And it`s so funny, because he says, Raymone, everybody who knew Michael Jackson knew that, number one, he wasn`t going to take any pills or medication on his own. Number one, that`s why he had the doctor there.
Number two, he loved his kids too much. He had spent too long a time preparing to come back.
And number three, quote/unquote, "He was too scary." Now, I say that because all of us who knew Michael, who traveled around the world with him, who were in his presence day-in and day-out, it is highly improbable that Michael Jackson administered Propofol on his own. That is not the Michael Jackson, Jane that we knew and loved. It is not.
It is totally improbable that Michael Jackson administered to himself any kind of medication like Propofol. It didn`t happen.
And as my colleague has said, standing right here on the side with me right now, it is unlikely. He was too scary. Too scary, meaning he was concerned about himself and his children and he did not want to do anything that was going to take his life away from those three kids. And it`s deplorable to see the circumstances of which they were exposed to what happened to their father.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I feel so sorry for them. I mean these are kids who had to be nomads after Michael Jackson`s acquitted in the child molestation case in 2005. They really had nowhere to go. They had to leave Neverland. They were encouraged to leave Neverland and then he went to the Middle East and he went to Ireland and went to other parts of Europe. He ended up in Las Vegas, and these kids, some might say, oh, that would be fun for the kids, but they were nomads.
BAIN: No, they weren`t nomads, no, no, no. They weren`t. They --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they were traveling.
BAIN: No, no, no. They enjoyed themselves. And let me tell you, Michael Jackson made life for those children as normal as possible. They had tutors. He had them in uniforms. Blanket and Paris and Prince would love dressing in their uniforms, having their school. They had lessons. He had the Marist School give --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Raymone, I think I`m agreeing with you. I`m saying that they`re great kids and that they turned out great. And it`s sad that they`ve had to go through as much as they`ve had to go through in their short lives.
And I want to very quickly play this. The personal chef today, Kai Chase, she took the stand. And she described a very normal home, a very caring home, a very loving home. Listen to her talking about the menu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAI CHASE, MICHAEL JACKSON`S CHEF: I made a juice called an organic beet juice blast, which he loved. Mr. Jackson wanted to have lunch at 12:30 exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Mr. Jackson appear to be happy in the company of his children?
CHASE: All day, every day.
I prepared dinner for Mr. Jackson and it consisted of a white bean -- Tuscan white bean soup.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Raymone, please stay right where you are. We`ll be back in a second.
Tomorrow here on ISSUES, we`re going to have another amazing interview, the attorney for Anna Nicole Smith`s doctor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR DR. ARNIE KLEIN: The half-life of Demerol is 2 1/2 to 4 hours. Well, clearly, if you`re going to be having some treatment and you`re going to be irritated and agitated, and therefore you`re being sedated with some amount of Demerol, within 2 1/2 to 4 hours thereafter, when you`re leaving the doctor`s office, going home, you might, from time to time, have some slurred speech.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s the attorney for Dr. Arnie Klein. The defense is pointing the finger at Dr. Arnie Klein and claiming, "Hey, this doctor`s the one who got him hooked on Demerol and that contributed to his death." Dr. Arnie Klein and his attorney fiercely deny that, tweeting, "Just remember, if you`re rich enough you can get away with murder."
And he also has a few other choice tweets, and one of them that I will quote you is coming up right here. It says, "Michael had a history of Propofol addiction since the `80s, not Demerol used during procedures."
So, Raymone, did Michael have, in your experience, a Propofol or a Demerol addiction? Remember, he did write a song called "Morphine" that talked a lot about Demerol.
BAIN: Well, let me just say this, and I`m going to share with you Michael Jackson`s words. We were in London and we were surrounded by a number of people, and generally, when we would go out, different fans would bring to him gifts.
Well, we were out and somebody handed him the lyrics of the song, and it ended up not being a fan, but a member of the press, saying, Mr. Jackson, you`ve written the song Demerol, are you hooked on it? And Michael Jackson just stood there, stunned, took the paper from the guy. It was laminated, and then we were walking to the car and Michael Jackson looked at me and said, if I was stuck on a -- strung out on Demerol, why the hell would I write about it and sing about it?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, that`s interesting. Because he does have this song --
(CROSSTALK)
BAIN: That is what Michael Jackson said. That is what Michael Jackson said.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He sings about Demerol.
BAIN: That is what Michael Jackson said.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got it.
BAIN: But let me say something to you, Jane that I would like to share. A lot`s going on in the backdrop. Everyone in the Michael Jackson family, and when I say family, not only the Jackson family, but extended family, everyone is really sad right now, because there`s been a lot going on the last couple of years.
And yesterday, when all of the people who had worked and were friendly with Michael Jackson saw him on that gurney, it brought back such memories, and when we look at this, we want to say several things. One, this is not a movie premiere that`s going on there in L.A. This is the manslaughter trial of a beloved father, brother, son, uncle, number one.
Number two, we`ve had tragedies --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I jump in with a question for you very quickly --
BAIN: But can I just say one thing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, but --
BAIN: Can I just say one thing first?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok.
(CROSSTALK)
BAIN: When I left here last night, I was extremely sad, because you know what, every time I conducted an interview, I received a call, and that call was from Frank DeLeo. I would pick up the phone and he would say, all right kid, let me just tell you what my analysis was.
Frank DeLeo passed three weeks ago. And I want to send my love out to his family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. He was very close to him.
BAIN: A year ago, another friend of 20 years, who worked very closely with Michael Jackson, Peter Lopez. He met an untimely death, and I want, we all want to send our love out --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But this is a controversial death.
Back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re talking about the Michael Jackson trial. Raymone Bain, did you ever have occasion to sue Michael Jackson?
BAIN: Did I have the occasion to file a lawsuit? What did you ask?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Yes.
BAIN: Yes, I did. And that has nothing to do with my relationship with him. He is -- we were very close. We discussed it, and I don`t want to discuss that. That`ll happen whenever my hearing happens.
But right now, what I want to say is that, one -- I want to make three points -- Michael Jackson never would have administered a lethal dose of anything to himself. He loved his kids. He did not want to leave them.
And we spent years preparing for that day that he would come back and show the world who he was.
And number three --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re just about out of time.
BAIN: -- this is not a circus, but it is a --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I hope you`re done, because we`re done. Thank you.
"NANCY GRACE" next.
END
