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Michael Jackson Death Trial; Anderson Cooper Interviews Joy Behar
Aired September 29, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, key medical testimony in the trial of Michael Jackson`s doctor, Conrad Murray, sheds light on Murray`s delayed 911 call. And Joy wants to know why a heart doctor didn`t know how to perform CPR.
Then Conrad Murray may be the defendant, but the King of Pop is once again on trial in the court of public opinion. Joy will examine how this latest legal mess could affect Jackson`s legacy and his kids.
Plus Anderson Cooper is here to celebrate two years of THE JOY BEHAR SHOW.
That and more starting right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Well, today was Day 3 in the Conrad Murray trial and the drama is building. Michael Jackson`s assistant was on the stand and he described the scene as Dr. Murray tried to perform CPR. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER DIRECTOR OF LOGISTICS: He was laying on his back with his hands extended out. I observed that his eyes were slight open -- were open. And his mouth was open. He had his hand with his palm open and he was giving chest compressions in this manner.
I was walking towards the bed and I was reaching for my phone in my pocket. And as I was doing that, Prince and Paris came behind. Paris screamed out, Daddy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: With me now to talk all about today`s developments are Sherry Gaba, psychotherapist and the author of "The Law of Sobriety"; Ryan Smith, host of In Session on TruTV who is at the trial right now; and Dr. Cathleen London, board-certified family medicine physician.
Ok. Ryan, you know, you hear about it. And the kids are there and it must be very painful for the family to be listening to all of this, right?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: Yes. It`s got to be one of the hardest days for them. And as we see them in court, you know, they come together every day. They sit in that row in the courtroom near the front. Janet Jackson very close to the jury in that row.
And when they heard the statement that Paris screamed, Daddy, Janet Jackson sort of shook her head and looked down a little bit. Also they stay stoic, which is amazing to me. During a lot of this testimony it`s so hard for them to hear when they first heard Michael Jackson`s voice in opening statements. There were a lot of sighs, a lot of tough looks and sadness but as this trial has gone on, they`ve been much more stoic in that courtroom. And I think it`s because there`s so much tragedy, so much sadness in this entire story, what more can they do except to just take it all in and listen through it.
BEHAR: Well, Michael`s bodyguard, a person named Alberto Alvarez, said that Dr. Murray had him hide vials and an IV bag before the paramedics arrived. Now, why did Murray do that?
SMITH: Well, what they`re trying to paint on the prosecution side is that Conrad Murray was focused on cleaning up the scene. Even before he was calling 911. So the prosecution`s trying to outline all the different steps where he could have said call 911 and he didn`t.
The defense is trying to say that maybe Dr. Murray did tell someone to call 911, and then Alberto Alvarez came in the room and so much other stuff was going on that he was taking care of that. So they basically had a list up there of all the things Alvarez was doing when maybe Dr. Murray thought he had already called 911.
So they`re painting this confusing picture and you could see both sides trying to use it to their advantage to try to prove their side of the case.
BEHAR: Yes, but they -- he was tampering with the scene. To my mind, Sherry, it says he`s guilty of something. No?
SHERRY GABA, AUTHOR, "THE LAW OF SOBRIETY": Yes, there`s something definitely going on if they`re trying to gather up all the medications and put them in a bag and running quickly. That is not what should have been going on. What should have been going on is saving his life.
BEHAR: Right. Ok. Let`s look at a clip of Alvarez responding to what medical equipment was in the room. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WALGREN, PROSECUTOR: Did you observe any heart monitor or any type of equipment monitoring equipment in that room?
ALVAREZ: No, sir.
WALGREN: Did you see anything attached to Michael`s arm like a black band that would be used to monitor someone`s blood pressure?
ALVAREZ: No, sir. I did not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Dr. London, what type of doctor doesn`t have medical equipment in the room when he`s administering this very, very heavy anesthesia? I mean what is that?
DR. CATHLEEN LONDON, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL: We actually call that medicine 007, you`re licensed to kill. I mean seriously, this is unconscionable. Even if you take this step that you`re going to be somehow talked into giving this anesthetic outside of an operating room, then where`s the monitoring equipment, where`s the oxygen saturation on him. Where`s the kind of pump that you would use for something like that.
BEHAR: Exactly.
LONDON: It doesn`t make any sense at all.
BEHAR: Exactly.
Now Ryan, Murray never mentioned the Propofol to paramedics at the scene. Didn`t he think they`d do an autopsy eventually. He just leaves the main idea out of the conversation? Ryan, what about it?
SMITH: You know, that`s part of -- you make a great point -- that`s part of the frantic nature of all this, the prosecution is trying to point out. First the collecting of all these bottles, and then not clearly saying to the paramedics, and Joy even to doctors at the hospital, not telling them that he gave Michael Jackson Propofol. And he didn`t really say this until much later.
So the prosecution`s trying to use this to say, this is a man who was trying to cover up things. He was more concerned with covering his own situation --
BEHAR: Yes.
SMITH: -- than saving his patient.
BEHAR: And didn`t he order a whole bunch of Propofol? There`s some kind of -- an enormous amount coming.
Dr. London, the defense is saying that Michael might have administered the Propofol himself. That`s one of the statements in this case. Is that possible?
LONDON: If you`re using the kind of infusion pump that you`re supposed to, to administer this drug, then no. Because it`s go -- there`s safety, they have a certain way. You`re also -- if it`s going into you, you`re kind of out of it. So I don`t see how he would be able to --
(CROSSTALK)
LONDON: -- how would he do anything to give himself more?
BEHAR: Well, you have to -- you would have to hook it up, right?
LONDON: Oh, in terms of whether he -- yes, it goes in IV, period. You`d have to be able to put an IV in yourself and -- there are reports of abuse of Propofol by anesthesiologists, some of whom have died giving it to themselves so without that kind of training of how to get it into your vein -- no, you can`t.
BEHAR: Sherry, can you be addicted to Propofol? Is that possible.
GABA: Well, sure. But I mean let`s look at the issue of all the doctors giving him drugs. The miscommunication between doctors. What about the idea that 51 times he went to see a dermatologist for Demerol?
BEHAR: Right.
GABA: Did Conrad Murray know he had Demerol in his system? That`s what`s killing all the celebrities. That`s what I see in practice. That`s what I see in the treatment centers. It`s the mixing of drugs. And I think we need to look at -- we really need to look at the trail of doctor- shopping and what was going on?
BEHAR: Exactly. The defense claims that Michael`s dermatologist, Dr. Arnold Klein, addicted Michael to Demerol. Now, Dr. London, why would a dermatologist give somebody Demerol. I mean I had botox, no one ever gives me Demerol. Maybe they should -- those needles hurt.
LONDON: Well, I mean it depends on some dermatologists do some surgery in their office. If he`s doing that and they were friends, he`s sitting there, Michael`s saying, "I`m in so much pain. My back hurts, can you just write me a little something."
A doctor with any kind of conscience is not going to do that.
BEHAR: It`s abusive.
LONDON: Yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Go ahead Ryan.
SMITH: But you know what -- but Joy, there`s another part of this. There`s a reason why that doctor, Dr. Klein, is not testifying in this trial. The judge chose to exclude him, not his medical records, because there was no Demerol found in Michael Jackson`s system.
So even though the assertion is, well, another doctor might have gotten him hooked on this drug, Demerol wasn`t found in his system. All that was found in his system were other drugs that Dr. Murray later said he had given to Michael Jackson at one time or another. That`s going to be sorted out. But still it`s a big part of this case.
BEHAR: Ok. They also played the 911 call. Let`s listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. How old is he?
ALVAREZ: He`s 50 years old, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 50? Ok. He`s unconscious? He`s not breathing?
ALVAREZ: Yes, he`s not breathing sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. And he`s not conscious, either.
ALVAREZ: No, he`s not conscious, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. Did anybody see him?
ALVAREZ: Yes, we have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you have a doctor there?
ALVAREZ: Yes. But he`s not responding to anything. So, no, no, he`s not responding to the CPR or anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh. Ok. Well, we`re on our way there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ryan, what was the reaction in court to the 911 call?
SMITH: It was stunning. Because this was something where you heard so many things. First of all, that he was doing the resuscitation, but at the same time a doctor was there. The paramedics automatically assume, hey you know -- he probably knows more than we do. We defer to him. Everybody thought this doctor was taking care of it.
Joy, I have to tell you about something else that happened though.
BEHAR: Go ahead.
SMITH: He said -- Alberto Alvarez said in court that Murray was doing mouth-to-mouth on him while Alvarez was doing resuscitation, pumping -- trying to pump away with his two hands. Dr. Murray looked up, took a couple breaths into Michael Jackson. Looked up, turned to Alvarez and said, "I`ve never done mouth-to-mouth, but I have to do it. This is a friend of mine."
BEHAR: Oh.
SMITH: So you would think, first of all --
BEHAR: My God.
SMITH: -- a doctor not knowing how to do mouth-to-mouth?
BEHAR: He doesn`t know CPR.
SMITH: And the other thing.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: And it`s not a friendship. It`s not a friendship. This is his patient not a friend. That`s not a reason to do CPR. You`re trying to save the man`s life.
BEHAR: Can you believe that a cardiologist or whatever he is doesn`t know how to do CPR? Everybody knows -- people in this room can probably do CPR. How could that be?
(CROSSTALK)
LONDON: Well, also that -- how long -- the whole like he thought someone called 911. The first thing you are taught when you are taught CPR and this includes the lay classes --
BEHAR: Right.
LONDON: -- is you say -- if you`re out with strangers, you point, you say, "You, call 911". That`s the first thing you`re taught. Because that time to electricity (ph) is so huge to being shot (ph). Why does a cardiologist not have a crash card? Really? And that he doesn`t know how to do chest compressions? He`s doing them with one hand on the bed? This is --
BEHAR: And he never did mouth-to-mouth.
LONDON: That`s just pretty unbelievable.
BEHAR: It`s just unbelievable to me.
Thank you very much, everybody for this. And much more on the Conrad Murray trial so stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Thomas Mesereau got to know Michael Jackson during the months he defended the singer in his 2005 child molestation trial for which Jackson was acquitted on all counts. Mesereau obviously spent a lot of time with Michael back then and he`s joining to share his thoughts on the dramatic developments in the Conrad Murray trial.
So I`m happy to welcome to my show, Thomas Mesereau, defense attorney and partner in Mesereau and U. Hello Thomas.
The prosecution played --
THOMAS MESEREAU, FORMER ATTORNEY OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Hi.
BEHAR: -- audio of Michael Jackson that Conrad Murray recorded. Michael`s speech is slow and slurring, like he`s under the influence of something. Do you believe, first of all -- do you believe first of all that it was Michael on the recording?
MESEREAU: Well, I have to assume it was. That`s what the prosecutors are saying, and I think nobody has really disputed that. I was horrified when I heard it because, you know, I represented Michael Jackson through that five-month trial and for many months before that. I never ever heard him talk that way.
During the time I was working with him, which was a very difficult stressful time, he was always articulate, always conversational, always cooperative. A delightful client to work with, and I never ever heard him that way. So it was just tragic and just very disheartening to hear that.
The other thing I want to say is, that I consider Michael to have been one of the nicest, kindest human beings ever created. He had a mission to try and help the world. Even when he`s intoxicated, if he is, and slurring his words and it`s very sad to listen to, he still was talking about building a children`s hospital. That`s the Michael I knew -- caring, decent, honorable, and wanting to use his greatest talents to help the world.
BEHAR: Yes. And also very interested in his audience and giving them the best show, even when he is slurring and under some kind of sedation. That is obvious to me.
But the thing I can`t make sense of is why Conrad Murray would record this in the first place? Do you have any thoughts on that?
MESEREAU: Yes, I do. Unfortunately, Michael Jackson attracted one profiteer after another. I don`t think Michael really trusted any adult. He was just -- felt that everyone who got near him eventually, you know, showed their true colors and wanted to get something out of him.
Unfortunately, I think this doctor recorded him so he could sell that recording and make some money. It sounds horrible, but I believe it`s true because many other people tried it throughout his lifetime.
BEHAR: Well, I guess he didn`t expect him to die, right?
MESEREAU: He didn`t expect him to die, I`m pretty confident of that, I think.
BEHAR: Right.
MESEREAU: But nevertheless, people were always trying to get something from Michael, record Michael, get a photo of Michael, and try and profit from it. I can`t think of any reason why he would want this recording.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, yesterday we heard testimony regarding Michael`s regular visit to his dermatologist, a certain Dr. Arnie Klein. Let`s just listen to that for a minute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALGREN: Do you recall at some point going to visit Dr. Arnold Klein with Michael Jackson?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir, I do.
WALGREN: And this was a regular occurrence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At a certain point, it was very regular. That`s right.
WALGREN: And when he left Dr. Klein`s office have you observed him sometimes to talk slow?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes when we leave, he would talk slow like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What did you make of that testimony?
MESEREAU: Well, you know, my job in defending him was not to learn about his medical history. My job was to defend him against conspiracy charges and child molestation charges.
I didn`t pay as much attention to his medical history and what doctors he was seeing. I would hear rumors from time to time he was seeing a number of doctors. And I would hear rumors from time to time that enablers around him were taking him to too many doctors and giving him too many prescription pills. But I never could verify it. I never knew if it was really true. And what went on with he and Dr. Klein was not a major concern to me. I wanted an acquittal.
BEHAR: I see. But he did show up in 2005 in pajamas in that trial, did he not? Did that cause any kind of (INAUDIBLE) in your mind at all about anything?
MESEREAU: No, of course, not. Absolutely not because he was at the hospital with a back injury. The judge got very upset and gave him 45 minutes to get to court or he was going to yank his bail and put him in jail for the rest of the trial. And I told him don`t go home and change, come to the courthouse. It really was my doing, my fault, my responsibility. I still think I did the right thing because I did not want him remanded to jail. It would have been awful for him to do that.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, the defense is arguing that Michael gave himself the fatal dose of Propofol. Is that a good defense strategy. We`re not even sure -- in my previous conversation -- we`re not sure that that`s possible to do. But is it a good defense strategy. Does it raise some kind of reasonable doubt or something like that in your mind?
MESEREAU: Well, you won`t know that until the jury renders a verdict, if they do render a verdict. You know, m y perception of the defense is that they`re very vigorous and very professional and very prepared. They`re trying to defend someone who has some serious evidence against him.
I`m a great believer in my profession. I love being a criminal defense lawyer. And I think we do more to preserve freedom and civil liberties than any other group I know. And we`re not always understood and we`re often attacked.
Even though I`m on the prosecution`s side in this case because I think what this doctor did was outrageous and caused Michael`s death, I understand what they`re doing, and they`re taking facts, they`re prepared, they`re doing their best to vigorously defend their client.
BEHAR: Well, do you feel that -- you know a lot of times the victims in these types of cases are on trial as well as the perpetrators. Do you feel that`s happening with Michael here?
MESEREAU: Yes, I do. I think they`re trying to attack Michael in two ways. First of all, they`re trying to subtly devalue him in the eyes of the jury. So that it might be easier to let their client go. They`re doing that by suggesting he was a lost soul and a drug addict and responsible for his own demise.
They`re also doing it to try to set the stage for their clients saying that he was a Good Samaritan. That Michael was in desperate shape and that he was really there trying to help him, not see him perish. That`s the two-pronged attack in my opinion.
BEHAR: Is it your opinion also that Michael is not responsible for his death in any shape or form?
MESEREAU: My understanding as the medical evidence shows that Propofol killed him, nothing else. If that`s true, this doctor is completely responsible. He was the professional, he was the one who was supposed to look at Michael and say, Michael, that`s a dangerous powerful drug, it doesn`t belong in the home, we don`t have proper trained personnel. I`m not an anesthesiologist, I don`t have a nurse anesthetist. I don`t have the proper breathing equipment, heart monitoring equipment, we`re not going to use it.
That was his obligation to say that. You can`t just be a yes person for your client because your client`s a celebrity and has a lot of wealth.
BEHAR: So it`s always the doctor`s fault in your mind?
MESEREAU: What do you -- I don`t know what you mean by "always the doctor`s fault"?
BEHAR: Well, I mean he was addicted to this drug, does he take any responsibility for that at all?
MESEREAU: He didn`t die before he got in this doctor`s hands. If another doctor gave him Propofol, apparently they did it according to medical standards from everything I know.
BEHAR: Yes.
MESEREAU: This guy --
BEHAR: He didn`t even know CPR, Dr. Murray. He didn`t even know how to do CPR.
MESEREAU: It`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: That is pretty unbelievable.
MESEREAU: It`s unbelievable.
BEHAR: Hang on. Hang on.
We`ll be right back. We have some more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I am back with Thomas Mesereau, the attorney who helped get Michael Jackson an acquittal in his 2005 child molestation trial. Ok. So today we heard testimony about Michael`s kids, where they were when Michael was in distress. Paris yelling "daddy". Prince is in shock crying. Does that kind of testimony help or hurt Conrad Murray?
MESEREAU: I think it hurts Conrad Murray. I think the beauty of these children and the tragedy of their losing their father is only going to help humanize Michael Jackson and emphasize what a tragic loss this was. And what an unnecessary loss it was. It definitely helps the prosecution.
BEHAR: So you think the prosecution is doing really well at this point?
MESEREAU: I think they`re doing very well, so far, but I think the defense is doing well too. I thought both opening statements were very effective.
You remember the prosecution gets to put their case on first. So things always look better for them at the beginning. This thing is not going to be over until it`s over as Yogi Berra used to say. You can`t score it inning by inning like a baseball game.
But I think they have a very good prosecutor. He`s clear, he`s just very concise, and his explanations for things, particularly scientific phenomena are very, very good. I think he`s telling a story bit by bit that`s compelling and logical and persuasive.
BEHAR: Ok. So then what do you think is the biggest hurdle for the defense is? What do they have to get over?
MESEREAU: They have to get over two things. One, the fact that Propofol is not like a prescription pill or an anti-depression pill. It`s a powerful drug that doesn`t belong in the home. It`s dangerous, and not only is that dangerous, but this doctor did not even know the first thing about how to administer it safely.
And the other thing that`s just horrifying is that when Michael Jackson was either dead or close to death and paramedics and police wanted to revive him, this doctor withheld the fact that he`d given him Propofol.
BEHAR: Right.
MESEREAU: Then the doctor went to the hospital. The doctors at the hospital were trying to save Michael Jackson and he again withheld that he had given him Propofol. That is going to destroy his credibility. It`s very suspicious. It suggests that he was only trying to save himself and not Michael Jackson.
BEHAR: So what do you think should happen to Dr. Murray?
MESEREAU: I think he should be convicted. I think this is the appropriate charge. I don`t think he intended to kill him. I think it`s his worst nightmare that Michael Jackson died. I don`t see any evidence of a conspiracy like other people but he`s clearly responsible. He should be convicted of a felony. And he should be stripped of his medical license and I think he should do some time.
BEHAR: Like how many years would you give him if you were the judge?
MESEREAU: Well, I`m biased, because I`m appalled by what this man did, and I`m appalled at what he took from all of us in taking Michael Jackson`s life. I`d give him the four years.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you Thomas, very much. I appreciate it.
MESEREAU: Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Ok. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Rumors that Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher unfortunately are splitting up. And in fact, those rumors continue to grow. They`ve reportedly been living apart for months. And now photos of Kutcher with a woman who is allegedly his mistress have surfaced online. You know, if Demi wants to get him back, she should do a sitcom with Charlie Sheen. That would show them.
With me now to talk about this and other pop culture stories in the news are Rob Shuter, naughty but nice columnist for "The Huffington Post", Countess Luann de Lesseps, co-star of "The Real Housewives of New York City" -- as opposed to the fake housewives. And comedian Patty Rosborough. Greetings.
So, Rob, things don`t look good for these two?
ROB SHUTER, "NAUGHTY BUT NICE" COLUMNIST: Yeah, this is not good. So, "Star" magazine had broke a story, they`ve got the girl that he allegedly had an affair with. And then Demi put out a very unusual tweet sort of saying that we need to forgive people and forgive anger. She`s removed that tweet.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: But this is not good news. She was also meant to go to an event this week in New York City. And she canceled that event. She clearly doesn`t want to be asked any questions.
BEHAR: They seem to be the nice -- the couple that is stable.
COUNTESS LUANN DE LESSEPS: How long have they been married? How long have they been married?
SHUTER: Six years.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: Are they married or they are not married?
BEHAR: I don`t think they were married.
SHUTER: Yeah, absolutely, 100 percent.
(CROSSTALK)
PATTY ROSBOROUGH, COMEDIAN: Who was surprised that a 30-year-old guy wants to bang 20-year-olds all of a sudden? You got a choice between young, beautiful, juicy 20-year old and a pre-menopausal 50-year-old. Who are you going to go with? Is she delirious? She`s in denial.
(LAUGHTER)
ROSBOROUGH: She`s starting to look old now. If you noticed that? For the longest time she looked 20. When she was 30, she looked 20, when she was 40, she looked 20. 50, she looks 50 now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She`s not 50 yet.
ROSBOROUGH: She`s 49 or whatever she is.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: I think she`s still gorgeous, and, you know, I don`t think age has anything to do with it. I think when you`re in love somebody and you have a relationship--
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: Listen, if you`re middle aged and you meet a 20-year-old guy, you bang him, you move on. You don`t fall in love, you don`t bring him home to your children who are two years younger than him. You don`t marry him and humiliate yourself in front of the country. You -- you look- -.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: I think she`s a very smart woman. I think she knows what she likes and she got what she liked, and I think, you know, hats off to her.
BEHAR: You think he got too big for his britches?
DE LESSEPS: And maybe she`s the one that -- she`s the one that`s leaving him, what do we know? We have really no information.
ROSBOROUGH: I think the sex was good. The sex is good when you have a younger boy. But after the sex, what`s left to say?
BEHAR: That`s true.
ROSBOROUGH: How are you getting home? Am I driving or is your mom picking you up?
BEHAR: How old are you?
ROSBOROUGH: Yes, exactly.
BEHAR: They have yet to release an official statement. But Demi tweeted a photo of herself with her eyes closed, with the following words: "I see through you." Creepy.
DE LESSEPS: That is very creepy.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know Luann, that sounds like a threat, doesn`t it?
DE LESSEPS: It does.
BEHAR: Yes.
DE LESSEPS: It really does sound like a threat. And not the most flattering picture of her, I must say.
BEHAR: No.
DE LESSEPS: I don`t know if I would tweet a picture of myself.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You know, Ashton tweeted the following. "When you assume to know that which you know nothing of, you make an ass out of you and me. What are they--
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: I think it`s like she does know. She`s acting like you don`t even now, but she does now. He`s being seen with young girls.
SHUTER: They`re having to say (ph) no. And in the past when rumors have come up about them, and they have ...
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: They`ve always had an official statement saying no. Also too, a good indication is these two like to take legal action. No legal action has been filed against "Star" magazine as of today.
BEHAR: What does that mean?
SHUTER: So it means that it`s probably true.
DE LESSEPS: And whenever you tweet that how fantastic your marriage is, that usually means that something`s going on there.
BEHAR: You know, "Star" magazine and "The Enquirer" -- "The Enquirer" wrote a couple of things about me that are not necessarily true. They`re not that harmful, so I don`t care. But I don`t think they`re always a 100 percent sure.
DE LESSEPS: Not always.
BEHAR: So, isn`t it better to just ignore that stuff? You should now that.
SHUTER: I think you should take legal action. Often if this is -- I think ..
BEHAR: Me?
SHUTER: Absolutely. What did they say?
BEHAR: They were saying that my hairspray is really suffocating my co-hosts. No.
SHUTER: Was it?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Barbara and I are aliens from Mars?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Next stop. Theresa Giudice from "The Real Housewives of New Jersey" is reportedly close to being cast in the next season of "Celebrity Apprentice." By the way, that sound you hear is the world "celebrity" being stretched to the breaking point. Not for nothing, Rob, this -- I mean, Luann, you`re a New Jersey housewife, right?
DE LESSEPS: No, I`m a New York housewife.
BEHAR: New York. Oh, you`re in New York.
DE LESSEPS: I can`t -- I can`t, you know, speak for New Jersey. I can only speak for New York.
BEHAR: But is she a celebrity?
DE LESSEPS: Well, you know, she is now, you know, from "The Real Housewives" franchise.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: She`s become a celebrity. Look at the people that are on that show. I mean are any of them real celebrities, any celebrity apprentice, right?
SHUTER: Right..
DE LESSEPS: Before they were on "Celebrity Apprentice,"
BEHAR: Oh, now. They`re celebrities.
DE LESSEPS: They`re well known people, yes.
BEHAR: Yes.
DE LESSEPS: Right. But why is Theresa any different? She`s well known. She has a current show that works for Bravo.
BEHAR: Well, there`s another one, Caroline Manzo said she`s Trump`s first pick. What`s the truth?
SHUTER: I think that Theresa is the breakout star of the Jersey Housewives. She actually sells these tabloid magazines. She`s the only housewife from that franchise that has ever been on the cover and sold very well.
BEHAR: Are you making the countess jealous?
SHUTER: That franchise ...
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: That`s because she`s completely corrupt. She`s completely -
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: Because you`re too normal.
DE LESSEPS: That`s right.
ROSBOROUGH: You have this girl who is crazy with, you know, the Eddie Munster hair that starts like right above her eyebrows. Her and Donald Trump together would be having like a hair fight with the eyebrows. She`s ridiculous, but, you know, she`s good, she tips tables over, she screams.
BEHAR: OK.
ROSBOROUGH: And she still makes that show interesting. Like NeNe Leakes did, like NeNe Leakes did for that show. I mean
BEHAR: That`s right.
ROSBOROUGH: She really did.
BEHAR: But she was the breakout star. She was the breakout star.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: Because they know the shows, because they`ve done them for so long ...
BEHAR: Absolutely.
SHUTER: They know how to do a reality show. A lot of celebrities don`t know how to do that. Dionne Warwick just didn`t know how to be part of that show.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHUTER: They came across terrible.
DE LESSEPS: Housewives come and go. You know what I mean? Not a lot of women can handle doing our show.
BEHAR: Let`s (inaudible) that for a second.
DE LESSEPS: It`s not for everyone to do a real housewives show.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I mean you and Ramona (ph) are the only two left of "The New York City Housewives.
DE LESSEPS: That`s right.
BEHAR: What happened to the rest of those bitches?
SHUTER: They`re boring. They`re too boring.
DE LESSEPS: No, you know, I think, they needed to -- obviously, if they`re changing so many housewives, something was not working.
BEHAR: Yes.
DE LESSEPS: So I don`t know what that was, and, you know, of course, I`m going to miss, you know, the girls and Jill who made that show really with me and Ramona. We started that show together.
BEHAR: Jill Zarin. I mean, I thought she was always going to be there.
DE LESSEPS: Jill is great.
BEHAR: Why is she gone?
DE LESSEPS: And I think they needed to switch things up, get some new blood. You know, create ...
BEHAR: They didn`t get rid of you.
DE LESSEPS: No, they didn`t, which, I`m, you know, I`m happy about. I`m glad to be a part of the Bravo family.
BEHAR: Is that that they were acting too divaish is the truth, come on?
DE LESSEPS: I don`t know. I can`t answer that.
ROSBOROUGH: Yes, you can.
BEHAR: You got the job, just say it, what do you care?
DE LESSEPS: You know, I think that they wanted to switch things up. I`ll put it that way, and I think, you know, unfortunately, they had to get rid of some girls to make room for the new ones.
ROSBOROUGH: They need a crazier story. You know Alex? Remember Alex (inaudible)?
BEHAR: Yes.
ROSBOROUGH: Yeah, they pretended that he wasn`t gay and that she didn`t know. You know? I hear he was walking around in his red leather pants to parties, and like, oh, my god, tell me this guy is not gay and stuck in the `80s too boot. He is very Eddie Murphy out there, from the `80s. But you know, like -- she needed -- he needed to come out, then she would have still been on the show. They needed some crazy things ..
BEHAR: But how could you get to do that? If it was in fact true. How would you get your husband to come out if he doesn`t want to?
DE LESSEPS: Don`t ask me, because ...
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: I have no clue to that--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Let`s move on to another story. Jason Alexander, who`s famously balding, he recently debuted a new hairline. Let`s look at the picture. OK? Look at him. He looks so much younger, I hear Demi Moore wants to date him. Now, the only reason that we`re talking about this story, because it looks like he has a bit of a rug up there, right?
DE LESSEPS: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s because he is famously bald. You know, he`s on "Seinfeld" as the bald guy, and like the Larry David sort of doppelganger. And he also -- was a chubby -- I think he`s changing his whole image. Is that a good idea?
SHUTER: He looks great. The hard thing about it is that he just stepped out with a wig on and expected nobody to notice.
DE LESSEPS: No I think the problem is, that he tweeted, that I`m going to be changing my looks.
BEHAR: Yeah. Right.
DE LESSEPS: I mean, I think there`s something to be said for discretion. Why do you have to tell everybody? I`m going to be sporting a new hairdo. Just show up with your hair. You don`t have to explain, you should never complain and you should never explain. That`s one of the rules in my--
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: Who cares if a guy is bald or not bald? Wouldn`t you date a bald -- my fiance`s bald, my ex-husband`s bald. Everybody is bald. I love bald men.
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: Who cares. Here`s this guy trying to -- he is still short and fat and nebbishy. He thinks he`s going to be -
(CROSSTALK)
ROSBOROUGH: -- short, skinny and nebbishy with the fake hair thing going back. It`s not going to help him.
BEHAR: He said the roles were limiting. Now he`s going to expand his roles.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: Seinfeld is over, Seinfeld is over, he`s got a new look. I think why not?
BEHAR: But he`s never going to be Brad Pitt.
DE LESSEPS: No.
BEHAR: Yeah.
SHUTER: It is a good point.
BEHAR: Right. Yeah. But he`s very funny, and he can sing. He`s very talented and he`s really, really smart. I wish he would come on my show.
SHUTER: Which is all that matters.
BEHAR: I want him here.
(CROSSTALK)
DE LESSEPS: -- Broadway or something, you know, who knows.
BEHAR: Yeah, and -- I thought they were plugs, but they`re not plugs.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s -- you can fly that thing to Baghdad.
OK. Thank you , guys. You can catch the countess on "The Real Housewives Live Tour" without the other bitches, just her and Ramona (ph). Saturday at Caesar`s Palace in Atlantic City. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: Welcome back to the JOY BEHAR SHOW. I`m of course Joy Behar. No, I`m not. I`m not Joy, but I`m sitting in for Joy, because she`s reluctantly agreed to be in the hot seat tonight as we celebrate the second anniversary of Joy`s show. Which is kind of like turns the tables, if you will. So I`ll ask Joy about the last 24 months. Joy, welcome to your show.
BEHAR: Thank you, thank you, thank you. It`s lovely to be here.
COOPER: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m wearing the same top, you haven`t noticed.
COOPER: Wow! You actually did do that.
BEHAR: I did, yeah.
COOPER: Like they do on "Saturday Live."
BEHAR: So what?
COOPER: Who cares? Is this strange? It`s a little strange.
BEHAR: To be sitting here?
COOPER: Well, yes, is it strange for you to be sitting here in general, for two years?
BEHAR: Well, for two years, no, no, no. This has been my great -- I love this show.
COOPER: Do you?
BEHAR: We`re having so much fun here?
COOPER: Yeah.
BEHAR: Even with all the death and dying that we have to cover. It`s still fun.
COOPER: What`s surprised you most about it? How was it different than you thought it might be?
BEHAR: How is it different?
COOPER: Yeah.
BEHAR: Well, it`s got no audience, so it`s different from "The View."
COOPER: No, no. You have a cast -- you`ve got a motley crew--
BEHAR: Cast of thousands.
COOPER: It`s like the land of misfit toys here. Who is this bunch of people -- you don`t have an audience, but you have literally like an entourage like Vinny Chase.
BEHAR: That`s right. Well, we have all sorts of people, you know, we have heroin addicts here, whoever wants to come in. Whoever wanders into the studio gets to sit down.
COOPER: It`s nice, though, because you get reaction, do you let -- I mean that helps obviously with your comedy.
BEHAR: To have a reaction?
COOPER: Yes.
BEHAR: Yeah.
COOPER: Yeah.
BEHAR: There`s nothing worse than a joke just sounding like a fart in a space suit.
COOPER: I liked on the show, you had a walk-off on the show. Which to me -- I`ve never-- I`ve never had anybody walk out of an interview.
BEHAR: Oh, you haven`t lived.
COOPER: I know. I know. I want to show the viewers your big walkout.
BEHAR: OK, sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE SIMMONS: My back is good. My shmekel not so much.
SHANNON TWEED: That`s very nice of you to joke about it.
SIMMONS: It`s a joke. Where are you going? What are you doing?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: She`s done with you.
SIMMONS: I was just joking because she`s a comedian.
(CROSSTALK)
SIMMONS: Thanks for the question.
BEHAR: Oh, I`m sorry, you`re blaming it on me, don`t put this on me. This is all yours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: What were you thinking when she walked off?
BEHAR: Well, a couple of things, I was thinking, I`m going to be stuck here with him and his tongue now alone. And then I was thinking, I hope she can find her way out. She really didn`t.
COOPER: Well, I was going to say, this is not an easy set to find your way out of. I used to be on this set.
BEHAR: Yes.
COOPER: And it`s very disconcerting. Sort of like you walk to the Empire State Building. And then you`re like where, where.
BEHAR: I know. You know, it`s a very -- it`s like Bloomingdale`s, did you ever go in Bloomingdale`s, you can`t find your way out of there either.
COOPER: It`s like IKEA. It`s what I don`t like about IKEA, because they force you to walk and turn away, and if you go against the path, it`s like the Swedish people get all upset.
BEHAR: That takes a lot to get them upset.
COOPER: That`s right. They`re flaying the Swedish meatballs. So there was -- you had a moment -- you asked a great question to Casey Anthony`s lawyer on the show.
BEHAR: Oh, yes. Yes, I did.
COOPER: You must have enjoyed. Did you enjoy covering this trial?
BEHAR: Oh, yeah. The Casey Anthony trial?
COOPER: Yes.
BEHAR: I did. I got into it.
COOPER: Yes.
BEHAR: It was interesting.
COOPER: You asked an excellent question of the lawyer. I want to show that.
BEHAR: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Would you let Casey babysit your kids, you say she`s innocent?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you know, my kids are older.
BEHAR: Well, let`s say they were younger, would you leave her with your children?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I liked Casey Anthony, I came to trust her. And that`s a really -- I feel -- I thought the Casey Anthony that I knew, I felt very comfortable with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That`s definitely an amazing question, and an amazing like -- she had no idea what to say.
BEHAR: I know, I know, but it`s a good question.
COOPER: It`s a totally valid question.
BEHAR: Yeah, it`s a valid question. You ask the person who`s been representing her. The one question that would throw her off, and it did.
COOPER: When something like that happens, do you -- What`s your impulse? Is your impulse just let the person flail?
BEHAR: No, it`s my impulse to take her in my arms and kiss her.
COOPER: You know, because you`re not like -- you`re not a hardened journalist. I mean my impulse would be -- I am interested in watching how this person tries to get out of it.
BEHAR: That is so sadistic of you. Well, I wanted to see where she was going to go. And can see what happens she was like, oh my god, why did they ask me this question?
COOPER: Right.
BEHAR: You know.
COOPER: What kind of interview do you like doing the most?
BEHAR: I like doing interviews where people talk about the real things. I don`t like the phony interviews.
COOPER: Right.
BEHAR: You know, when they really honest, they`re come here to play and talk.
COOPER: Right.
BEHAR: I love those kinds of interviews.
COOPER: It`s very frustrating to be interviewing somebody who is not there to play, I mean who`s not there to really, actually have a conversation.
BEHAR: Exactly. I don`t --
COOPER: There`s nothing more annoying.
BEHAR: No, you hate that too, right?
COOPER: It`s -- it`s the worst. I don`t want to talk to anybody who doesn`t want to be there. Who doesn`t want like to actually -- have a give and take.
BEHAR: Well, just the one-note samba, the one-answer guy is a drag too. You`re like, OK, what was my next question?
COOPER: Earlier this year, you did your show in Vegas, and --
BEHAR: Oh, yes.
COOPER: I just wanted to show --
(CROSSTALK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRAD GARRETT: Do you ever like late at night-
BEHAR: Excuse me, Brad, I`m doing the interview.
GARRET: I`m sorry. I want a show so bad. Anything, anything.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You have a comedy club, it`s in the red, but you have it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a crazy interview, because he was really -- he was upstaging the puppet. You know what I mean? That`s wrong. And Brad is a great comedian, very funny. And he just went wild. He went wild. He forgot he was on television. We loved it.
COOPER: Did he know him before?
BEHAR: The puppet? Oh, Brad? Did I know him? Yes, I know him from the comedy years.
COOPER: How does this compare to doing "The View?" How is -- obviously you`re alone.
BEHAR: Well, the difference is, I`m the one who interrupts people here, as opposed to they`re interrupting me. That is the difference, mainly. And again, the big audience, you know. And we`re following several topics that I have to have opinions all the time over here. In this show, I have to ask people for their opinions more than I give mine. Even though I do give mine too.
COOPER: I just started doing two jobs. How do you do both jobs?
BEHAR: You know, look, before I became a comedian, professional comedian, I was a working stiff, OK, Anderson? I did 9:00 to 5:00. I was a teacher, I worked in a mental hospital.
COOPER: That`s a real job.
BEHAR: I had real jobs. Did you ever have a real job?
COOPER: Summer jobs, waiter.
BEHAR: Oh, just for the summer?
COOPER: Yeah. Internships in college and stuff like that.
BEHAR: Oh, my heart breaks. No, but seriously, I`m used to doing like a full day of work, so this is really nothing to me.
COOPER: Right. You know, I was a war correspondent. So I mean -- anyway, I`m not going to -- I am not going to defend myself to you. We`ll be right back.
BEHAR: I (inaudible) Haiti, I`ll tell you that much.
COOPER: We`ll have more Joy in a moment.
BEHAR: And I wouldn`t.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC)
BEHAR: That`s great. Thank you, Barry. I love you so much, you`re the best.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Don`t change the channel. You are indeed watching the Joy Behar Show. We are of course here celebrating her 30th anniversary at CNN, at HLN. Congratulations.
BEHAR: Thank you. It`s been a long run. It`s worth it.
COOPER: Man, 30 years. Incredible.
BEHAR: I used to date Wolf Blitzer when I was in high school.
COOPER: Is he as tender a lover as they say?
BEHAR: Yes. Very tender. Wolf oh my God, he`s one of those generous lovers, you know what I mean?
COOPER: He`s a generous lover.
BEHAR: It`s all about the woman. It`s not about him.
COOPER: Interesting.
BEHAR: He doesn`t care, you know, if you don`t do anything for him.
COOPER: I heard tender, I did not hear generous. I am interested--
BEHAR: Not as tender as David Gergen.
COOPER: Really?
BEHAR: Gergen, you know, he appears nude every once in a while at George Clooney`s house--
COOPER: George Clooney`s house.
BEHAR: And he`s like that all the time.
COOPER: Yes, he went skinny-dipping at Clooney`s house.
BEHAR: Yes.
COOPER: So you had a lot of rockers on the show. You had Alice Cooper, my uncle.
BEHAR: Alice Cooper. Who?
COOPER: Alice Cooper, my uncle.
BEHAR: Your uncle?
COOPER: Yes. And you had Bret Michaels, who I`m fascinated by because I`m wondering what is underneath--
BEHAR: The bandanna?
COOPER: The bandanna.
BEHAR: No, that`s just a look.
COOPER: That`s not just a look. That`s a -- that`s camouflage.
BEHAR: I don`t know what it is.
COOPER: I`m convinced if that bandanna is removed, like two giant hair plugs fall out like that. I don`t know.
He seems like a nice guy, though.
BEHAR: He`s very nice. The rock stars like me. I used to have a little fling once in a while with Lawrence Welk back in the day.
COOPER: Right, really?
BEHAR: You know how it is.
COOPER: Sure, yes. Were his bubbles as tiny as they say?
BEHAR: They were smaller than Wolf Blitzer`s.
COOPER: Oh, it`s getting -- it`s hot in here.
BEHAR: It is hot.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: I am going through the change, hot flashes here. You do have a lot of comedians on the show. And do you think they open up to you?
BEHAR: No. They`re just as hostile to me as they are on stage. No, comedians--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Those are my pals. I know them for years, they come on and they feel free. They don`t realize they`re on television either. Like Brad Garrett. Same thing.
COOPER: We want to wish you a happy anniversary, second anniversary.
BEHAR: Thank you.
COOPER: There`s a cake here. Everybody is here to join in. Come on, everybody.
BEHAR: Wow, look at my head.
COOPER: I know, look at that.
BEHAR: Yes. This is my staff and crew and friends.
COOPER: Everybody, come on out. Very nice, congratulations.
BEHAR: We have the most fun here of any show, right?
COOPER: I have no doubt about that.
BEHAR: We do. That is so nice.
OK. So I want to thank -- are we ready to go now? OK.
COOPER: Oh, no, no, I can do more.
BEHAR: OK. Give it a rest, OK, Anderson? And thank you for doing it. I also want to give a special thanks to the TLC show "Cake Boss" and Carlo`s Bakery (ph) in Hoboken, New Jersey for this awesome cake. Be sure to stick around for "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT," and that`s for the latest from the Conrad Murray trial. Good night, everybody. Thank you.
END
