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Nancy Grace
Witnesses Tell of Jackson Death Scene
Aired September 29, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. We are live here in L.A. where Jackson`s live-in Caribbean doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial for manslaughter, accused of shooting Jackson up with a super-powerful surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving the music superstar to die surrounded by his own urine. A stunned courtroom hears eerie audio, Jackson dazed, slurring his words, as Jackson`s inner circle takes that jury inside the final shocking and deadly hours.
Bombshell tonight. Evidence of a cover-up! In the very minutes after Michael Jackson dies, Jackson`s doctor, desperate to remove damning evidence even before he calls 911. Part of the evidence he hid, drug vials, IV bags containing propofol. Jackson`s children screaming, Daddy, Daddy! Daddy is dead in front of their own eyes. Tonight, the stunning 911 call. We have the audio.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You came in and saw Conrad Murray giving compressions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was using one hand.
He had his hand with his palm open, and he was giving chest compressions in this manner.
Paris screamed out, "Daddy!"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was she crying?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s not breathing and we need to -- we`re trying to pump him, but he`s not...
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is he on the floor? Where`s he at right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the bed, sir. He`s on the bed.
911 OPERATOR: OK, let`s get him on the floor. Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor`s been the only one here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Paris screamed out, "Daddy!"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How would you like him to be remembered?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As one of the greatest and nicest guys ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The children were crying and screaming. And the next thing we did, we started hugging and we came together and we held hands and we started praying. Neither one of us knew what was going on at the time, but the energy in the house did not feel good. It was not the energy that I have always felt in this home that I worked for in the time I was with Mr. Jackson and his children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. The sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. Jackson`s live-in doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial for manslaughter. Evidence of a cover-up! In the very minutes after Michael Jackson dies, his doctor desperate to remove damning evidence even before calling 911.
Part of the evidence he allegedly hid from cops, drug vials and IV bags containing propofol. And remember, cause of death, acute overdose of propofol.
We are live here in L.A., camped outside the L.A. County courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Michael Jackson.
And we`re taking your calls. But straight out now to the courthouse. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," what happened today, Jean?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Alberto Alvarez, star witness for the prosecution, testified that he was summoned to the bedroom of Michael Jackson, saw Conrad Murray giving CPR with one hand, with Michael on the bed. And suddenly, Conrad Murray started collecting vials on the nightstand by the bed and ordered Alvarez to put them in a plastic bag and then a brown paper bag.
GRACE: OK, back it up for me, Jean Casarez. So Alvarez is part of the security detail. There he is on the stand. This just went down in the last hours. And he says when he gets in there, Jackson is dead, staring off. And instead of calling 911, Conrad Murray, Dr. Conrad Murray, with his Caribbean doctor`s degree, is cleaning up the scene? Tell me exactly what he said, Jean.
CASAREZ: He testified that he was collecting the vials on the nightstand right by Jackson`s body that was still on the bed and ordered Alvarez to get the plastic bag, put the vials in the bag, which Conrad Murray dropped in, and then ordered Alvarez to put them all in a brown paper bag, double-bagged.
GRACE: OK. I want to hear about the scene. Joining me also, along with Jean Casarez at the courthouse here in L.A., Kareen Wynter, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" correspondent. Kareen, describe for the viewers what the room looked like when Alvarez goes in there. What does he see?
KAREEN WYNTER, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" CORRESPONDENT: It was a scene of complete chaos. You could see this witness on the stand breaking down, trying to really hold it together, seeing Michael Jackson`s lifeless body there, not knowing what to do. Murray`s issuing these orders, I want you to do this, take care of the kids. It was an absolute chaotic scene.
He talked about the IV that was still in Michael Jackson`s leg, the fact that Murray was trying to attach something to his finger to get a pulse. A very, very emotional day on the stand Nancy, for this witness.
GRACE: And Jean Casarez, it`s my understanding -- keep showing me those photos of what Alvarez sees when he gets in there. Kareen Wynter joining us tonight from "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT." Back to Jean Casarez. Jean, it`s my understanding that the propofol was not slammed into his arm or leg, it was actually injected into Michael Jackson`s ankle?
CASAREZ: Yes. And there was an IV stand, and Murray also directed Alvarez to take the IV plastic bag off. Inside was a bottle. He now knows it was propofol. And he saw a milky fluid inside that saline bag.
GRACE: OK, Jean Casarez, I want to talk about all those bottles of urine and the condom catheter that was on Michael Jackson. What were all those bottles of urine surrounding him?
CASAREZ: This is really important. Condom catheter was on Michael Jackson so that he could urinate and it would go into the plastic bottle and he wouldn`t have to get up. In other words, if you`re going to put him under for a long time, you put on that condom catheter, and then he can have propofol for a night`s sleep.
GRACE: So Murray had it all set up. Murray, Dr. Jackson`s Caribbean doctor, got his degree here in the U.S. I`m sure that medical school is proud tonight.
We are live here in L.A., camped outside the courthouse, taking your calls. You know, a lot of people have called in, they`ve written in, they`ve e-mailed. Hey, what about Michael Jackson being a junkie? It doesn`t matter. What about Michael Jackson`s child molestation charges? It doesn`t matter because the day we start sorting, picking and choosing who`s the perfect victim, we`re all lost. Who`s going to stand up for me or you when you need justice? It doesn`t matter what Jackson did or didn`t do in his past. All that matters is what happened the night he died.
We`re live outside the courthouse. To Elaine in Illinois. Hi, Elaine. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. First of all, real quick, you did so good with your dancing that night! Awesome good. Perfect!
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how you did it!
GRACE: You know, I don`t, either. When the music started, it was like a big blur. I was just holding onto my dance partner for dear life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh! Yes. It was so -- it was perfect. Your footwork was perfect. But I wanted to say about this -- OK, when -- when -- I was -- I`ve seen death. And when they said that his eyes were open, his mouth was open, it was like a shock, he was, like -- he was, like -- to me, he was under the -- with the propofol, but then he woke up in shock because he couldn`t breathe. And that`s -- that is when I believe -- because Conrad Murray was out of the room, and he was in shock.
GRACE: So are you saying, Elaine in Illinois, that you think that look on Jackson`s face was frozen there, even in death, because of the way he died?
Let`s go to Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health, Johns Hopkins. Dr. Marty Makary, to what do you attribute the look on Jackson`s face in death?
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, it`s essentially an expressionless look. It`s when all the facial muscles have fatigued. And it can often present as a frown or a look of shock. But essentially, the person is unconscious when they`re overdosed on propofol, and that`s probably exactly what happened here.
GRACE: So what about Elaine in Illinois`s question, that he woke up, unable to breathe, gasping for air, and that`s how he died?
MAKARY: The way that propofol often kills somebody is it suppresses their drive to breathe. So they lose that drive to breathe and they essentially cannot breathe. So they don`t feel a gasp for air. They sort of fall asleep and die in their sleep.
GRACE: Back to the courthouse. Standing by, Jean Casarez and Kareen Wynter. Everybody, you`re seeing photos shown by the prosecution in court today, and it is a side-by-side of a seemingly very healthy Michael Jackson the day before he died -- the day before he died! -- next to his lifeless body.
Now, the prosecution, the state, says this photo is going to be central to their case. And to me, it speaks volumes. What happened between the day before, when he is practicing in rehearsal hall, trying to make his big comeback -- and a lot was riding on this comeback, millions of dollars, he was deep in debt -- and the next day?
The only thing I can think of, Jean Casarez is, enter Conrad Murray.
CASAREZ: Well, or the defense is saying, enter Michael Jackson, that he ingested (SIC) himself. That is what we heard in the opening statement from the defense.
GRACE: Everybody, we are live here in L.A., bringing you the latest in the death of music icon Michael Jackson. Since when can you walk into a mansion in California and shoot up the king of pop, let him die surrounded by his own urine, and then walk scot-free? Absolutely not!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prince was in my eyesight. And at that moment, Dr. Murray was very frantic and very disturbed. The first thing that I thought of was to immediately get some help, and that`s the fastest -- first person -- fastest thing I could do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was laying on his back with his hands extended out. His eyes were slightly open, or were open, and his mouth was open.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray telling him to grab vials, not call 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He reached over and grabbed a handful of vials.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse, bringing you the latest in the death of music superstar, a world icon, Michael Jackson.
Here in America, a doctor goes into Jackson`s home, shoots him up in the ankle with a live drip of propofol, a super-powerful surgical anesthetic, then leaves the room to go chat up his mistress on a cell phone while Jackson chokes to death? Now we learn about a cover-up? A cover-up? Did Dr. Conrad Murray actually try to clean the scene before he even bothered to call 911?
What the hey, Jean Casarez! Jean, so instead of calling 911, Conrad Murray calls an assistant who lives, what, in downtown L.A.? And then they call the security detail? How did that work?
CASAREZ: Well, Nancy, it`s exactly as you said. But then the defense is saying when Alberto Alvarez came into the bedroom minutes later, the first thing Conrad Murray said was, Get help, get an ambulance, we need to get this man to the hospital. That`s the defense...
GRACE: Well, wait a minute! That doesn`t make sense to me, Ellie Jostad. Hasn`t Conrad Murray just been chatting up his girlfriend -- he`s married, right? -- his mistress, on a cell phone?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right.
GRACE: What, he can`t dial 911? What`s the problem?
JOSTAD: Well...
GRACE: Why do you have to call an assistant...
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: ... from downtown L.A. to get there and go tell him to call 911?
JOSTAD: Well, I think what the defense is going to show is that he did ask the security guard to call 911. He actually asked the chef to get help, and she didn`t go get security. She just went and got Prince for help. So they`re trying to establish that, you know, Murray was working on Jackson.
GRACE: Put her up.
JOSTAD: He told others to call 911.
GRACE: Put Ellie up! Ellie?
JOSTAD: Yes?
GRACE: Ellie, when the witnesses got in the room...
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: ... they said Conrad Murray was performing CPR with one hand!
JOSTAD: Yes, that`s right.
GRACE: He could have easily called 911 with the other hand! Hello?
JOSTAD: Right. And not only was he doing the compressions with one hand, he also was doing the compressions while Jackson was still lying on the bed.
GRACE: You know, that`s important. To Dr. Marty Makary. I`ve noticed -- and I`ve been on a lot of crime scenes and they always -- the EMTs always put the victim on the ground or a hard surface. Why?
MAKARY: Well, it`s actually very difficult to do chest compressions strong enough to get the heart to actually pump blood. If you do it on a bed, you really can`t get the force. So that`s why the person is always supposed to be on the ground or on a hardboard when you do chest compressions.
It`s supposed to be done with two hands. The reason it was done with one hand, I can only think that he was flustered, nervous, and trying to figure out what to do.
GRACE: Flustered, nervous, trying to figure out what to do. You know what, Dr. Marty Makary? Why couldn`t he call 911? Why?
MAKARY: Well, he clearly should have called 911. He should have used two hands with his chest compressions. To me, it`s a surrogate marker that he probably just at that moment was completely shocked by what happened and was doing everything wrong.
GRACE: We are live outside the county courthouse. The trial in Michael Jackson`s death rages on, the jury saturated with evidence of Michael Jackson`s untimely death.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Did anybody see him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
911 OPERATOR: Oh, you have a doctor there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. But he`s not responding to anything, to no - - no -- he`s not responding to the CPR or anything.
911 OPERATOR: Oh. OK. Well, we`re on our way there. If your guy who`s doing CPR is instructed by a doctor, he has a higher authority than me. And here`s there on scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor`s been the only one here.
911 OPERATOR: OK. We`re on our way. We`re on our way. I`m just -- I`m just passing these questions on to my paramedics while they`re on the way there, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir. He`s pumping. He`s pumping his chest, but he`s not responding to anything, sir. Please.
911 OPERATOR: OK. OK. We`re on our way. We`re less than a mile away. We`ll be there shortly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir. Thank you.
911 OPERATOR: OK, sir. Call us back if you need any help. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prosecution makes the point Dr. Murray never tells Michael Jackson`s personal assistant to call 911.
911 OPERATOR: Is he on the floor? Where`s he at right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the bed, sir. He`s on the bed.
911 OPERATOR: OK, let`s get him on the floor. Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor`s been the only one here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first thing I asked, Where are the children? We got them in the car to get ready to follow the ambulance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you followed their father in the ambulance to the hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How would you like him to be remembered?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, as one of the greatest and nicest guys ever.
911 OPERATOR: Fire paramedic 33. What is the nature of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, we have a gentleman here that needs help. And he`s not breathing. He`s not breathing. And we need to -- we`re trying to pump him, but he`s not...
911 OPERATOR: OK. OK. how old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s 50 years old, sir.
911 OPERATOR: 50, OK. He`s unconscious? He`s not breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he`s not breathing, sir.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And he`s not conscious, either. He`s not breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, he`s not conscious, sir.
911 OPERATOR: OK. All right, do you have anybody -- is he on the floor? Where`s he at right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the bed, sir. He`s on the bed.
911 OPERATOR: OK, let`s get him on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: OK, let`s get him down to the floor. I`m going to help you with CPR right now, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need them to get here...
911 OPERATOR: Yes, we`re on our way there. We`re on our way. But I`m going to try to help you over the phone. We`re already on our way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse, and we`re taking your calls.
Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Eleanor Odom, senior attorney with the National District Attorneys Association in D.C., joining us tonight from Denver, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Eleanor Odom, weigh in.
ELEANOR ODOM, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOC.: Well, Nancy, clearly, you`ve got a lot of negligence here and some deliberate actions. And I love how the prosecution is presenting each step that Dr. Murray did. He didn`t call 911. He waited. He didn`t perform CPR properly. He collected evidence, Nancy, and was hiding it and getting rid of it. All points to his guilt.
GRACE: You know, Eleanor, a big question for me -- I believe this case was totally undercharged because what many people don`t get is it`s not -- for murder one, you don`t have to show intent to kill. You have to show intent to do the act.
For instance, if I held a gun to your head, Eleanor, and pulled the trigger, and I went, Oh, I only meant to scare her -- no! The law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. He intended to shoot Jackson up and leave him alone and unattended. I think it should be murder one, Eleanor.
ELEANOR ODOM: Well, it certainly is a good case for murder one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Damning testimony, when you talk about all the things that the prosecution is outlining.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you observe any heart monitor or any type of equipment, monitoring equipment in that room?
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BODY GUARD: No, sir.
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: He calls the personal assistant. Why didn`t he call 911?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at no time during that phone call did he ask you to call 911?
ALVAREZ: No, sir. Dr. Conrad Murray asked if anyone knew CPR.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had Conrad Murray asked you and Alberto Alvarez if you knew CPR?
FAHEEM MUHAMMED, HEAD OF JACKSON`S SECURITY DETAIL: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conrad Murray giving him CPR on the bed with one hand.
ALVAREZ: Dr. Conrad Murray said, don`t let them see their dad like this. And they were right behind me.
MUHAMMED: Paris was on the ground, balled up crying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paris, she starts screaming, "Daddy, daddy, daddy."
ALVAREZ: Paris screamed out, "Daddy."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Screaming negligence right there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How incompetent and clueless Murray is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing video from AEG live of Michael Jackson`s daughter, Paris, speaking at her father`s memorial service.
Everybody, we are live here in L.A., taking your calls. We are live outside the courthouse where Michael Jackson`s doctor is on trial for manslaughter. In the deadly hours surrounding Jackson`s death today, we learn of an extensive cover-up, that Dr. Conrad Murray, before he even calls 911, is busy hiding vials of liquid, IV drug use, all of the evidence that could lead to him being responsible for the music icon`s death.
We learn about Michael Jackson`s children running into the room, seeing their own father lying there, in death. His eyes open, staring off in space.
I wonder, did those children see all those drug vials? Did they see their father injected at the ankle? Did they see him wearing a condom catheter? Did they see all the bottles of urine surrounding their father? Is that their last memory of their father?
We heard evidence of them screaming, "Daddy, daddy, daddy," but Jackson didn`t answer. He was dead. And what was his "doctor" doing? Trying to clean up a homicide scene, according to prosecutors.
Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Odom, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom.
To you, Peter Odom, what is your defense in this case?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this case doesn`t even belong in a criminal courtroom. I can`t believe that you`re talking about charging this man with murder one. This is a negligent act. This doctor did a lot of things wrong. He did nothing criminal.
You keep suggesting that he`s trying to clean up a crime scene? His patient just died. He`s trying to preserve some shred of this man`s dignity, knowing that there`s an ambulance on the way. This doctor did many things wrong, nothing criminal.
GRACE: Really? Is that what he did?
P. ODOM: He had no intent to kill.
GRACE: Trying to preserve Jackson`s -- OK.
P. ODOM: Exactly. By cleaning up all the junk that was around.
GRACE: By trying to preserve Jackson`s integrity.
Jean Casarez, what exactly was it that he wanted taken away from the scene?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, what he was collecting were the vials. We don`t know vials of what on the nightstand next to the bed. And then he put them in a bag and then the saline bag that had the bag -- the bottle of propofol in it, putting that in another bag.
GRACE: So what about the condom catheter? Did he want that cleaned up?
CASAREZ: No. No.
GRACE: OK.
CASAREZ: No. But I --
GRACE: Thank you. Back to Peter Odom. Back to Peter Odom.
So, you`re telling me, as a defense, for Dr. Conrad Murray, that there was no cleanup of the scene, because Conrad Murray was trying to preserve Jackson`s integrity?
P. ODOM: Exactly. Knowing that there`s going to be an ambulance coming --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: But unusually -- as I was saying, Peter, I hadn`t finished my question. So to preserve Jackson`s integrity, Conrad Murray cleans up everything that implicates him in Jackson`s death, but leaves him laying there wearing a condom catheter?
Now there`s nothing like a condom catheter to boost your integrity, Peter Odom.
P. ODOM: Well, that`s your interpretation -- yes, that`s your interpretation that he`s cleaning up all the incriminating evidence.
GRACE: No, I want to hear your interpretation of that.
P. ODOM: That he`s --
GRACE: No, I want to hear your interpretation of saving Jackson`s integrity --
P. ODOM: Well, you`ve heard it.
GRACE: -- by leaving this stuck on him.
P. ODOM: Nancy, any person that is his doctor and his employee is not going to want to see -- have the public and ultimately the press come in, and see the place covered in junk. He`s trying to preserve some dignity --
GRACE: But the condom catheter is OK? Yes. That didn`t make any sense.
P. ODOM: That`s your interpretation --
GRACE: Let`s hear from you Rockwell.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, let me just say one thing. Y`all were talking about upgrading this to murder one. This is clearly just a negligent homicide. I think it`s properly charged.
GRACE: Put her up.
ROCKWELL: You don`t want another Casey Anthony debacle where a case was overcharged.
GRACE: You know what, I don`t remember asking you that. I asked that question about 10 minutes ago to Eleanor Odom. I asked you, what would your defense be in this case? You`ve handled many a murder trial, let`s hear your defense.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, the defense in this case is this was simply negligent, but it does not rise to the level where somebody needs to be charged with a homicide. We don`t know yet who administered the deadly dose. We don`t know if this -- if Michael Jackson was actually coming off of a --
GRACE: Did it himself.
ROCKWELL: Don`t know if he did it himself, Nancy.
GRACE: So who else was in the house, Renee? The only people in the house were Dr. Conrad Murray, his children, Michael Jackson`s children, the babysitter, all the security people were outside. So are you suggesting Paris did it?
ROCKWELL: No. Paris didn`t do it, Nancy. What I`m saying to you is that we don`t know --
GRACE: And neither did the babysitter.
ROCKWELL: Or the butcher or the baker or the candlestick maker.
GRACE: That`s right.
ROCKWELL: We have a situation here --
GRACE: Your argument doesn`t even make any sense.
ROCKWELL: Yes --
GRACE: There was nobody else to administer it. Unless you`re saying Jackson administered it to himself.
ROCKWELL: We don`t know yet who put this whole scenario together. Maybe Conrad Murray got the drugs.
GRACE: Put her back up, please.
ROCKWELL: You don`t Michael Jackson might have been --
GRACE: Renee? Can I just try to pin you down on that last fallacy? OK. So if Jackson -- if Conrad Murray didn`t inject him, who did? Just --
ROCKWELL: What I`m saying is --
GRACE: Pick anything out of the hat.
ROCKWELL: He could have been injecting himself. If you have all these bags set up where all he has to do was put it in the bag --
GRACE: Well, why was Conrad Murray there?
ROCKWELL: We don`t know yet.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What was Conrad Murray for?
ROCKWELL: To monitor him.
GRACE: Jackson could -- but he didn`t monitor him.
ROCKWELL: Because he might have been in the room, might not have been in the room.
GRACE: He left. That`s why he`s dead.
ROCKWELL: You don`t know if he was in the room at the time.
GRACE: Yes, I know that he`s already states that he`s in the other room talking on the phone.
ROCKWELL: Nancy, if the reason Michael Jackson is not alive today because Conrad Murray did not properly do CPR. That is not a homicide.
GRACE: OK. You know what, you know what you`re doing, Renee?
Please put her up.
Renee, now, I see I know what you`re doing, but the viewers may not get it. See, what you`re doing, first of all, when I ask you what`s your defense, you say, this was not overcharged. You`re dancing around the question. Then you say, this was negligent homicide. Then you say, somebody else shot Jackson up. But there`s nobody else to do it but Conrad Murray. Now you`re saying --
ROCKWELL: Or Michael Jackson. Or Michael Jackson. If he`s --
(CROSSTALK)
ROCKWELL: If he`s been using his propofol --
GRACE: You go back and back and back. Every time I clear up your last defense, you just -- you just have another one. So that`s where that`s going.
Did you know, Renee, in this jurisdiction, in California, that involuntary manslaughter can actually be probated? So even if Conrad Murray is found guilty, he could get straight probation and a fine.
ROCKWELL: And -- but he couldn`t be a doctor anymore.
GRACE: Boo-hoo. Who would want him to be their doctor anyway.
Out to Bethany Marshall --
ROCKWELL: I think he has quite a following, Nancy, and a number of people still love him.
GRACE: Yes, every junkie out there on the street would love to have him.
Let me go to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers," help me out, Bethany. Why is everybody trying to blame Michael Jackson? Just give it to me in a nutshell.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I think it`s easier to blame the victim and I think the public doesn`t understand that doctors are held to a higher level of care. This was this physician`s role to protect his patients, and there were many steps along the way when Conrad Murray had the opportunity to say, no. This is negligence and this is malpractice. And he didn`t do it.
GRACE: Joining me right now, special guest out of Philly, Danny Bonaduce. He`s a CBS radio talk show host, former child star. You all know Danny. And a longtime friend of Michael Jackson`s.
Welcome, Danny. When you hear all this evidence coming out about Jackson`s children running into the room, and they see their father dead, and start screaming, "Daddy, daddy, daddy," I mean, I remember when my fiance was murdered. I did not -- I couldn`t bring myself to even look at his body in a casket. I couldn`t take it. So what about these children that you know?
DANNY BONADUCE, CBS RADIO TALK HOST, FORMER CHILD STAR, FORMER DRUG ADDICT, WAS FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, I must tell you, I`ve known Michael Jackson since I was 7 and saw him every single day for four years of high school. I`ve been to all of his homes, he`s a wonderful man. And the fact of the matter is that his children saw what went down is awful.
But I just want to say, as a prosecutor and a good prosecutor, don`t you think it`s a rhetorical question? Why would anyone call 911 before they hid the evidence? You always hide the evidence before you call 911, because Conrad Murray knew he was guilty of something. Who calls 911 first?
GRACE: Tell it, Bonaduce.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were the children?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got them in the car, to get ready to follow the ambulance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s pumping, he`s pumping the chest, but he`s not responding to anything, sir. Please.
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSIC ICON: Thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conrad Murray was giving Mr. Jackson nightly doses of propofol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Murray comes down the stairs, there`s a stairwell that leads into the kitchen, and he`s screaming, hurry, go get Prince, call security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ask you to call 911?
ALVAREZ: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson`s life at the end was being controlled and manipulated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you have a doctor there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jackson was not breathing and had no pulse when paramedics arrived at the scene of his rented mansion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did he say?
MUHAMMED: He said, where are you? And I said, I`m downtown. And he said, get here right away. Mr. Jackson had a bad reaction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he was in, quote, "dire need of help."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s pumping, he`s pumping the chest, but he`s not responding to anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial surrounding the death of music icon Michael Jackson.
Joining me right now is a very special guest. It`s Garo Ghazarian, the attorney for longtime Dr. Jackson dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein. Now a lot of people are blaming Klein for Jackson`s death. They are saying that Klein, a dermatologist, got Jackson addicted to Demerol.
Now, I don`t know whether any of that is true or not, but I know this. Michael Jackson did not die of Demerol. He died of an acute, acute overdose of propofol, a very powerful surgical anesthetic, not to be used outside hospital walls.
To you, Mr. Ghazarian, thank you for being with us. What do you say in response to people blaming your client?
GARO GHAZARIAN, ATTORNEY FOR JACKSON`S LONGTIME DERMATOLOGIST DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, DEAN, PEOPLE`S COLLEGE OF LAW: Thank you for having me, Nancy.
First of all, he didn`t only not die of Demerol intoxication, there was no Demerol in his toxicology report, autopsy report, and whatsoever, around the vicinity of the place where he apparently met his -- met his death, unfortunate death. One must keep in mind that there are two theories. One theory is 21/2 to 4 hours of half-life for the effects of Demerol, the other one is, it stays in the blood for a long period of time.
Well, how long of a period of time it would have stayed? It wasn`t in his blood system.
GRACE: Well, Mr. Ghazarian, I -- we all agree that he didn`t have Demerol in his system, but I expected you to come out of the gate like a race horse telling your client did not introduce him to Demerol nor was your client responsible for any alleged Demerol addiction, but that`s not what you said, Mr. Ghazarian.
GHAZARIAN: Well, let me just say this. Perhaps I did not follow your inquiry. No, I categorically deny that my client addicted him to Demerol. Furthermore, I don`t even think he was addicted to Demerol. I think that`s a fallacy and I think that skirts the real issue. He died of acute propofol intoxication and Demerol was not a part of it whatsoever. So why are we talking about Demerol?
GRACE: Attorney Garo Ghazarian, joining us. This is Dr. Arnold Klein`s doctor.
With me right Stacy Brown, co-author of "Michael Jackson: The Man Behind the Mask." What do you make of the evidence today, Stacy?
STACY BROWN, CO-AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON: THE MAN BEHIND THE MASK", JACKSON BIOGRAPHER, FORMER JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Nancy, you know, you said earlier that the charges probably should have been murder, murder one. Prior to this -- the opening statement and prior to this week, I was one of those who went along with those lawyers who would say, this belongs in a civil trial.
However, listening to the evidence now and looking at the cover-up, oh, my gosh, Dr. Murray should be considering a plea deal at this point. And he should be very fortunate that he`s only facing four years. It`s incredible.
GRACE: Yes. It`s such a blue-light special. He could actually get probation for this.
Brian Oxman is with us, the attorney for Joe Jackson in a wrongful death lawsuit.
Brian, question, in a wrongful death lawsuit, you have to have standing to sue. For instance, if a lady got run over by a bus out on the street, you know, a couple of feet away from me, unless I was her daughter or, really, a child or a spouse, typically, you don`t see wrongful death suits by parents when there are children that could file that wrongful death suit.
Joe Jackson is filing a wrongful death suit, stemming out of Michael Jackson`s death. Why?
BRIAN OXMAN, JOE JACKSON`S ATTORNEY IN WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT: When the California legislature identified who is going to be able to bring a wrongful death suit, they identified parents of the deceased, if those parents are supported. Both Katherine Jackson and Joseph Jackson received support from Michael Jackson. They were cared for.
Michael was an extraordinary man, Nancy. He cared for his parents, he supported them, and they have standing to bring a wrongful death lawsuit.
GRACE: I`m glad you cleared that up for me, Brian.
Brian Oxman, the attorney for Joe Jackson, a wrongful death lawsuit.
Brian, I know the family knew the photos of Michael Jackson`s death were going to be admitted into evidence, but how did that affect them? Even knowing that it was coming.
OXMAN: Oh, my, Nancy, we knew that it was coming. We had talked about it among the family. You cannot belittle the response that this family has to those photographs.
Janet Jackson was absolutely heartbroken when she saw it. And Katherine Jackson was stunned. It was -- it was very difficult.
GRACE: You know, speaking of the family, back to Kareen Wynter, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT" correspondent, joining us at the courthouse. What`s this business about La Toya Jackson claiming Michael Jackson`s death is part of a conspiracy? What conspiracy?
KAREEN WINTER, SHOWBIZ TONIGHT CORRESPONDENT: Well, she thinks that, you know, there were several parties that were part of this, including Murray, who tried to murder the singer. She`s been quite adamant about it, Nancy. The really interesting thing is, this is where La Toya and some of her siblings don`t see eye to eye.
I just spoke with someone close to Jermaine today and they were very, very adamant about this, that Jermaine does not feel that there was a conspiracy. Sure feels that the LAPD --
GRACE: Wait --
WINTER: -- could have handled things better.
GRACE: Back to my question, Kareen Wynter. I want to get back to conspiracy. To have a conspiracy under the law you`ve got to have somebody to conspire with. So who, in La Toya`s mind is Conrad Murray conspiring with to kill Michael Jackson?
WINTER: I don`t think that she`s come out and said that, you know, Nancy. She thinks that there are people out there who obviously thought that Michael was worth more dead than alive, and that there was this conspiracy. Perhaps we`ll learn more about what this conspiracy actually involves as this trial plays out.
GRACE: So Jean, has the jury heard the whole 911 call, and if so, what was their reaction?
CASAREZ: They`ve heard the whole 911 call. They had transcripts. They sat, they read, they listened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER DOCTOR: Your honor, I`m an innocent man.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES": Giving him a slew of drugs in the hours leading up to his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re in for an electrifying trial.
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: The king of pop, Michael Jackson, passed away on Thursday, June 25th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LA TOYA JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SISTER: My brother was not healthy and they didn`t care.
MUHAMMED: I was an employee, but I was a fan first. I would try to sneak in, watch him.
M. JACKSON: Undergoing treatment for dependency on pain medication. When people leave my show -- I became increasingly more dependent on the painkillers. I`ve ever seen --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in L.A., and taking your calls. Angel in New York, what`s your question quickly, dear?
ANGEL, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. What I want to ask you, isn`t it criminal within itself that this doctor got propofol, something that you can`t get from a prescription from a doctor and pick up on the pharmacy yourself and use it in a setting other than a surgical setting?
GRACE: Good question. Eleanor Odom, isn`t that just a violation of medical regulation, , not a crime in itself? Yes, no?
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Yes, you`re right, Nancy, but it is a huge ethical violation.
GRACE: Got it. Got it. Bottom line, it`s not a crime.
Danny Bonaduce, it should be a crime. That should be a crime right there.
BONADUCE: It should be a crime right there. You know what, this -- everybody`s hands are dirty in this one way or another. You know if you think, I`m sorry to say this, but La Toya is talking about a conspiracy, and you say some of the family doesn`t see eye to eye.
I will tell you from personal knowledge of this family, there is not a member of the Jackson family that has ever seen eye to eye with La Toya. For example, when she was wearing a Captain`s Hat dancing naked with a (INAUDIBLE) around her neck --
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Pot is not calling kettle black. I have done plenty of things I`m not proud of, but if they`re not a crime, I don`t care about it.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What I do care about, Danny, is who killed Michael Jackson. Forget what the family says, I`m talking about --
BONADUCE: Dr. Conrad Murray. You answer is Dr. Conrad Murray.
GRACE: You`re right. You`re right, Bonaduce. You`re absolutely right.
But we`ve got to stop. We`ve got to stop and remember Army Sergeant Chad Vollmer, 24, Grand Rapids, Michigan, killed Iraq. On a second tour awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Multinational Forced and Observer`s Medal.
A medical first responder, certified lifeguard. Member of ski patrol. Loved golf, restoring his Pontiac Bonaville. Leaves behind parents Sandra and Terry, sister Heather.
Chad Vollmer, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. We will be live tomorrow night camped outside the L.A. county courthouse seeking justice in our own way. And until then, 8:00 sharp tomorrow night. Good night, friend.
END
