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CNN Sunday Morning
Knox to Plead her Case; Obama Calls Out GOP Rivals; Fan Penalized for Standing
Aired October 02, 2011 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From CNN's world headquarters -- bringing you news and analyst from across the nation and around the globe -- live from Studio 7, this is CNN SUNDAY MORNING with T.J. Holmes.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Good Sunday morning.
We could just be a day away from finding out if American Amanda Knox will get to come home. The appeal of her murder conviction, she'll plead her case herself tomorrow. We're live in Perugia.
Also, in New York, protesters shut down the Brooklyn Bridge? All part of a growing grassroots movement against Wall Street.
And also, I want you to take a look at this guy. He was kick out of the Cleveland Brown football stadium. For what? He refused to sit down.
He is standing by. A live conversation with a member of the Dawg Pound coming up next.
But here's the top of the hour:
What would you say if you had just 20 minutes to defend your life? That is the question of American student Amanda Knox and she will have to answer that question because tomorrow she's on. She takes the stand in her own defense with her freedom hanging in the balance.
CNN's senior international correspondent Matthew Chance has been watching this appeal trial for us from Perugia.
And, Matthew, I said there -- people here appeal and take the stand to defend yourself. This is not going to go like a normal case in the United States where someone takes the stand and they're going to be asked questions. No. She's going to make a statement.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. They call it the pleas of innocence here.
And both Amanda Knox and her co-accused, Raffaelle Sollecito, accused and convicted already, of course, of murdering Meredith Kercher in 2007, will get about 15 minutes each. It's not been confirmed that Raffaelle will make a speech but definitely Amanda Knox, tomorrow morning, is going to be standing in front of that jury with a heartfelt last appeal for her freedom.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): It's said to be the speech of her life. Soon, Amanda Knox will make a final direct plea of innocence, a last chance to convince this Italian court to set her free.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she ready?
CURT KNOX, AMANDA KNOX'S FATHER: I believe she is. She's been thinking about it for well over three months, you know? And so, I think it's going to be very heartfelt and it would be truly her. And, hopefully, it will go over well.
CHANCE: The American exchange student was convicted in 2009, along with her Italian boyfriend Raffaelle Sollecito, of killing her 21-year-old British roommate. The body of Meredith Kercher was found half-naked in their Perugia apartment drenched in blood. Police found DNA evidence now undermined by independent experts connecting Knox and Sollecito to the crime. The couple were also spotted shopping for underwear and kissing during the investigation, deemed callus behavior.
At trial in 2009, there were lurid allegations of satanic orgies fueled by drugs in which Meredith Kercher had her throat slit. Knox and Sollecito denied involvement but was sentenced to 26 and 25 years behind bars.
Prosecutors and lawyers for the Kercher family want that conviction upheld.
FRANCESCO MARESCA, KERCHER FAMILY LAWYER (through translator): They are asking the court to confirm the truth and the truth as we always said was from in the first trial.
CHANCE: Throughout this murder appeal, Knox has looked pale and stressed. Her parents say she can hardly sleep, anxious as she prepares to learn her fate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE: Well, straight after Amanda addresses the jury and the judge in that court, they will retire and consider what their decision will be, whether they will set her free or keep her behind bars here in this jail on the outskirts of Perugia.
Back to you, T.J.
HOLMES: And, Matthew, this is the appeal. But let's just say hypothetically she loses this appeal. Does she still have any more options?
CHANCE: She does. Under Italian law, she has one more option which is to appeal to the Supreme Court. Her attorneys have already said they will do that, but it will still mean months more at least in prison here in Italy. HOLMES: All right, Matthew Chance for us in Perugia, thank you so much.
Well, four minutes past the hour.
A new alert this morning for Americans traveling anywhere. The State Department issued this worldwide travel alert due to fears of retaliation attacks over the government's killing of a key al Qaeda leader -- that leader, Anwar al-Awlaki. He was killed in a CIA drone attack in Yemen last week.
Earlier, the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security sent out the same warning to local law enforcement. This travel alert is, in effect, at least through November.
President Obama last night calling out every single one of the Republican presidential candidates. He was talking about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy and the reaction to a day soldier's question at the last Republican debate.
First, I want you to listen to the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't believe in a small America. We don't believe in the kind of smallness that says it's OK for a stage full of political leaders, one of whom could end up being the president of the United States, being silent when an American soldier is booed.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We don't believe in that. We don't believe in standing silent when this happens. We don't believe in them being silence since.
You want to be commander in chief -- you can start by standing up for the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States even when it's not politically convenient.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Now the moment the president was talking about you may remember. It was an incident from one of the Republican debates where a soldier, a gay soldier, was asking a question.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
STEPHEN HILL, SERVING IN IRAQ: In 2010 when I was deployed to Iraq, I had to lie about who I was because I'm a gay soldier. Do you intend to circumvent the progress that's been made for gay and lesbian soldiers in the military? (BOOING)
RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, I would say any type of sexual activity has absolutely no place --
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
HOLMES: Now, Rick Santorum there went on and answered the question. You see that he did not necessarily reference at all the boos and jeers you heard in the crowd. Now, the viewers at home certainly heard it. He claims he did not hear it when he was there. He put out a statement later that said if he had heard the booing, he would have condemned it on the spot.
President Obama's comments came during a speech to the Human Rights Campaign. That's a major advocate for the quality in the gay and lesbian community and he talked about his opposition to the Defense of Marriage Act. He stopped short, however, of openly endorsing same-sex marriage.
Meanwhile, Governor Rick Perry, he's prepared to send American troops into another country. This one -- Mexico. He says to battle drug cartels.
The Texas governor and GOP presidential candidate made the comments at a campaign event in New Hampshire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The way that we were able to stop the drug cartels in Colombia was with a coordinated effort. It may require our military in Mexico, working in concert with them, to kill these drug cartels and to keep them off of our border and to destroy their networks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Perry also said the U.S. and Mexico governments should meet after the 2012 election to try to discuss a strategy.
Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain, he is looking for a new communications director. Ellen Carmichael who had worked for the Cain campaign team for the past year says she's resigning for personal reasons. She's the third staffer to leave the Cain campaign. Since June, as you know, Cain's campaign has really caught fire here as of late.
Our political coverage continues at the bottom of the hour when we, of course, we check in with our Candy Crowley. She joins us for a sneak preview of "STATE OF THE UNION." This morning, she'll have the former Vice President Dick Cheney and his daughter, Liz Cheney. Again, Candy Crowley will join me at the bottom of the hour for a preview.
The Brooklyn Bridge is open once again this morning after protesters shut it down. Police took away as many as 700 demonstrators who had taken to the bridge as part of a Wall Street protest. They're calling this the "Occupy Wall Street" -- that's what they call themselves, these protesters. They've been gathering in New York for more than a couple weeks now. Loosely coordinated effort it is so far to protest what they say is a financial system that favors the rich at expense of everybody else.
This is the biggest disruption, at least we've seen, caused so far. Police have been trying to keep the protesters away from Wall Street to this point. They set aside alternate protest areas. Protesters are not using those.
The protest movement has also spread, not just from New York, other countries all around. Demonstrators also turned up in Los Angeles, Chicago, Denver and a couple of other places.
Well, at nine minutes past the hour, Reynolds Wolf really got my attention this morning when he mentioned snow. I wasn't ready for that.
REYNOLDS WOLF, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Hard to believe, here we are in the first weekend -- first weekend of October and it's like flipping in atmospheric switch where already we've already had rainfall in parts of the Northeast.
But, yes, as T.J. mentioned, a little bit of snow. We're not talking about significant accumulation. Not talking about several feet of snow, but a light touch of it across parts of Appalachians, into parts of the Upper Elevations, also into New York and into Pennsylvania.
We're going to talk about that. Plus, a real quick update on the tropics. A full plate as always.
Back to you, T.J.
HOLMES: All right. A light touch of snow. I oversold it. Didn't I?
WOLF: No, not at all. It's good.
HOLMES: All right. Reynolds, thanks, buddy. We'll talk to you here in just a second. Well, we're at 10 minutes past the hour.
And I want to share a story with you coming up -- about a girl in Ohio who was just crowned homecoming queen but she was crowned queen several months after she was killed in a car crash. We'll tell you about the person who gave up their chance at the crown. That's coming up after the break.
Also after the break -- just about everything in Vegas, right? Well, check this out. A Michael Jackson slot machine is to be unveiled this week.
But, first, to our troops. A little shout-out for you now from the man himself, James Todd Smith, or you might know him as LL Cool J.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LL COOL J, ACTOR, HIP-HOP ICON: To all the troops overseas, we appreciate your commitment, your dedication and the sacrifice that you make to preserve democracy and we just want you to get home safe. So, keep your head low, keep your honor and your integrity intact, be strong. Peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Fourteen minutes past the hour now this CNN SUNDAY MORNING.
Give you a look at some of the stories making news cross country:
And we start in Ohio where the candidates for homecoming queen decided they don't want to be homecoming queen. They gave up the chance for the crown. Why? Because they wanted a friend to have it who had died several months ago in a car crash. They say she always wanted to be homecoming queen so they made sure they could not be queen and left it open for her.
Listen to her mother now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
GRETCHEN KNISLEY, LESLIE KNISLEY'S MOTHER: She was so excited about this year because she said she could get queen. But I believe she's already got her crown and she's a queen in heaven.
LIZ KRECH, HIGH SCHOOL SENIOR: It's not easy really for any of us. And even if we didn't have any interviews, even if we didn't -- if no one even knew what we were doing, we're still going to do this for her.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
HOLMES: That's a nice moment. Always good when you see young people doing what's the right thing, not having an adult tell them what to do.
Now, to another story of teenagers here, though. This is in Florida where a new teen sexting law has gone into effect. It applies to teens who send sexually explicit photos on cell phones or computers.
Now, before this new law, teens could actually be charged with a felony for sending a sext message and also forced to register as a sex offender. But, now, the first offense is non-criminal, punishable by up to eight hours of community service or a $60 fine.
Now, let's go into Las Vegas now, shall we, where a new Michael Jackson slot machine is being unveiled this week. It features a surround sound chair that vibrates to Michael Jackson songs. Now, we don't know which casino it might be in yet. Right now, it is just being unveiled at an expo where some of those casinos can go bid whether or not they want to have it in their casino. But it is being unveiled this week and the person who makes it, the manufacturer, says this is just a coincidence that the game is being unveiled during the manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson's doctor.
Let's turn, 15 minutes past the hour, say good morning to Joe Carter from HLN Sports.
Good to see you. It seems like we've done a lot of these over the past couple weeks, another brawl at a football game.
JOE CARTER, HLN SPORTS: Yes.
HOLMES: These kids are older than 13 though, right?
CARTER: Yes. This is a youth football game. This is a high school football game. Half-way into the season, we've already seen high school football brawls in Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Florida, and now, this one happened in Sacramento, California, between two rival high schools.
It started out pretty innocent. You know, you got the quarterback running the football, the other team tackled him and sort of slammed him down to the ground. You know, the guys in the field started mixing it up a little bit. Then this is when it gets bad because both of the sidelines clear, they come out on the field and start mixing it up.
You got referees trying to break up the fight. You've got coaches trying to break up the fight. There was a large fight and several small fights. One of the coaches claims he was punched in the face.
So, the referees stepped in and said, you know what? We're calling this game with five minutes to play. No word just yet on what the High School Athletic Association of Sacramento is going to do or either high schools yet. But, obviously, not a part you want to see of high school football.
We've seen this too often. It is only five, six games of the season.
HOLMES: What is going on? Is it just that we have more video of these things these days? Or were they always happening? It seems like we got more.
CARTER: Yes, it's a good question. I'd like a sports psychologist to help answer that, because I don't know.
HOLMES: All right.
CARTER: It didn't happen when I was in high school.
HOLMES: All right. Let's turn to another story of football. This one is not pretty, either.
CARTER: You know, cheap shots are part of the football game, nasty things happen at the bottom of the pile.
HOLMES: We're going to see sometimes.
CARTER: Exactly. Now, this though is just not cool. This is just like guy code.
Check the top right to your screen. You'll see number 45 clearly knees number 70 right in the groin. Now, number 45 is Jonathan Brown. He plays for Illinois. And he looks to his right and looks to his left, then drops the knee.
And the manner was totally not cool. Now, he thought the officials weren't looking. They did see him. So, they penalized him. He actually had two personal fouls in the game.
Now, long story short, Illinois did win this game. Illinois off to a 5-0 start. A lot of people surprised by that outside of the big 10.
HOLMES: He just got a regular 15-yard penalty for that? That was just 15 yards?
CARTER: I'd like to see what the coach is going to do to him this week in practice though. I would imagine he's going to make an example of him.
HOLMES: That's a 100-yard and two touchdown penalty right there.
Last thing, another football story here. And you could consider this a comeback that maybe some people could cheer for this young man. Do we want him back?
CARTER: You know, LSU got their star quarterback back, Jordan Jefferson. Not all the fans at LSU happy about his return though because he was involved in a bar brawl around campus. He was suspended first four games of the season, charged with a felony but a grand jury dropped it to a misdemeanor account. Eyewitnesses said that he kicked a Marine in the face but the grand jury determined it was not enough evidence to hold up the felony charges so they reinstated him.
But, yes, like I was saying, the fans are mixed about this one. When he did go on to the field for the very first time, you hear the LSU faithful, some cheering, some booing. Actually, Les Miles said to the media after the game, he wasn't happy with the fans boos. He didn't appreciate how the fans were turning on his quarterback.
But, again, it's like he put himself in that situation. Yes, grand jury relieved him of the charges but you have to think in some way he was involved when he shouldn't have been involved, you know, like a lot of those guys were.
HOLMES: All right. Joe Carter, good stuff -- but kind of some ugly stuff on the ugly side of sports.
CARTER: Just (INAUDIBLE) we have to do, right?
HOLMES: All right. Joe, good to see you as always. Thanks, buddy.
Well, we're at 19 minutes past the hour now. Coming up, in just a few minutes, tell me -- you tell me, Joe -- would you want to sit behind this guy at a football game?
Well, you know -- there he is! Well, you're not going to have to sit behind him this morning but you're going to have to sit with him and listen to him because he got kicked out.
He's a big fan. Why would they want him out of the stands? Well, they say he was actually standing a little too much. We'll talk to this guy. Stay with me.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
HOLMES: All right. And I want you to look closely at the screen. Just look at crowds of people. Can you tell me anything about this crowd? Did you notice anything in particular?
Maybe not, but I can tell you that there are no men in that crowd. Grown men have now been sidelined from this soccer match. Ladies only. We'll explain why.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Twenty-two minutes past the hour.
I'd say good morning once again to Nadia Bilchik for our "Morning Passport."
I'm a little offended by this morning's passport. How are you going to keep me, a sports fan, out of a game and tell me I can't go? No men allowed.
NADIA BILCHIK, CNN EDITORIAL PRODUCER: But it's interesting, it seems today and this morning, it's all about men behaving badly.
But it's interesting. What happened is the Fenerbahce, who is one of the most popular, if the most popular soccer teams in Turkey -- they call it football there, but for all-purposes, it's soccer in this country. What happened is there was a pitch invasion. Fans stormed on to the pitch and the federation said they have behaved so badly.
Are you seeing them there? Can you imagine this disruption? This is during the game.
HOLMES: Now, this was earlier this year?
BILCHIK: This was a few months ago, yes.
So what the federation said is as punishment which is a common thing to do in Europe, your next home game is going to be behind closed doors with absolutely no spectators. So they came back at them and said, OK, the spectators who are behaving badly are only men. So, why don't we allow women and boys under 12?
So, what you're seeing now is the cause and what they had was 42,000 women then attended the next game.
HOLMES: Wow.
BILCHIK: And let me tell you, there was much less swearing, go watch it there, much less spitting, there was much less trash on the street, and what the Turkish Football Federation said the atmosphere was extraordinary!
HOLMES: Wow.
BILCHIK: So, let's do it again. And what they've just proposed is that they have entire sections in Turkey for football matches which are only women.
HOLMES: OK, why did the guys storm the field in the first place?
BILCHIK: Well, obviously, they weren't happy --
HOLMES: About something.
BILCHIK: -- with the score.
HOLMES: Are they drinking at these games?
BILCHIK: Drinking copious amounts at these games. So, alcohol consumption was much less with the women. Spitting was less. Sales of women's wear went up. Behavior went up.
HOLMES: OK. Don't get any ideas here in the States, all right? And it's probably not a good segue.
We got a guy coming up who was kick out after football game. Some say he was behaving badly. We'll get that in a second.
But, Nadia, good stuff this morning. Thank you so much.
Also something to tell you about. Denver -- excuse me not Denver -- Denmark doing something that the whole world now is going to be watching, including you. They're putting a tax on some foods you like. They call it a fat tax on foods that aren't healthy for you, but they might taste so delicious!
The whole world is watching to see what kind of effect it has there. Maybe this could be coming to a country near you.
Also, coming up next, we were talking about him. Is this the guy you want to sit next to during a football game? But even more specifically, do you want to sit behind him?
I'm talking to the Cleveland Browns season ticket holder who was kicked out for being too big of a fan. He's next.
Stay with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Great shot this morning. Central Park, New York City.
Good morning to you all. "Why can't we all be friends?" This is the song of War, funk band, put together in 1969. One of the rock and roll Hall of Fame nominees. I think there are 15 of them. We'll find out soon how many of them will actually get in. We'll be sharing more and more of these songs with you over the coming weeks.
Well, as we get close to the bottom of the hour, many of you have been to a pro football game, college game, you've been to some game before. And you go to a game. It's not like you're sitting in church, right?
But as one Cleveland Browns fan found out last week, there are rules. He got kick out of the game for standing too much.
During the week, Rob Stipe has a painting company. But on Sundays, Rob Stipe paints his face and gets ready to go hang out with the infamous Dawg Pound.
Mr. Stipe, good morning to you, sir. How you doing?
ROB STIPE, KICKED OUT OF GAME FOR STANDING: Great day for football, T.J. How you doing?
HOLMES: I am doing all right. Now, you all have a home game today?
STIPE: Yes, sir.
HOLMES: All right. You going this time, right?
STIPE: Absolutely.
HOLMES: Now, how much standing are you going to be doing today?
STIPE: Actually, I'm pretty much going to be doing my usual thing. I think I might sit down at the beginning of the game on first and second down. But every third down, every fourth down, every time we're in the red zone, I'll be standing.
HOLMES: OK. Will you tell -- let's go back to last week when you did get kick out. How much standing were you doing and were you doing more standing than you normally do. You're a season ticket holder.
STIPE: No. Usually we've been standing about the same amount. I actually got warned on I believe the second drive of the game for standing on a first down. Was totally polite and sat down. And, you know, just kept standing on my third and fourth down.
HOLMES: OK. You got a warning, so why didn't you listen to that warning?
STIPE: Actually, this has been going on for a couple years.
HOLMES: OK.
STIPE: We've been getting warned for standing too much over the last couple years. We've asked numerous times, when can we stand? Well, we were told by the security guard that, you know, he said, I think it's fair that you guys can stand on third and fourth down.
And you know what? When there's no action on the field we're allowed to stand as well. We're also allowed to stand when there is everybody else standing in our section.
HOLMES: OK. Now, were other fans complaining or the security spotted you on their own and asked you to sit down and then asked you to leave?
STIPE: I was never asked to sit down by any fan behind me, and pretty much I think it was like a security thing just trying to get us to sit down all the time.
HOLMES: So you think they want you in the Dawg Pound to sit for a whole game? That's not reasonable, is it?
STIPE: No. And actually I think everybody in the Dawg Pound should be standing because that's what Cleveland was made on -- the Dawg Pound. You know, we are the best fans in the land. Let's show it just a little bit more. You know?
HOLMES: OK. But if someone behind you asked you, sir, sit down, it's a second down, even a third down -- could you understand and be respectful for those folks who paid for their ticket as well or would you turn around and look at them and say, hey, it's third down, you need to be a better fan, you need to stand up? What would you do?
STIPE: On a third down, I would ask them to stand up. But usually on third down, most everybody does stand up. If I was standing at another time and someone asked me to sit down, I would definitely be courteous to other people and sit down. I have done that before and I will continue to do that as well.
HOLMES: All right.
Let me ask you as well as I put up the code of conduct here. And I'll read a little bit but I want to ask you as well. How much drinking was involved at the game that day? Did that play a role at all?
STIPE: No, not at all. I was the designated driver for the day so there wasn't alcohol involved at all with me at all that day.
HOLMES: All right. Now I have the fan code of conduct up. I'm sure you're familiar with it but you tell me what -- what it means to you. And they warn fans there is a code of conduct when you're at these events. "You should refrain from excessive standing. Be aware that when you stand you block the view of fans behind you. We don't want to diminish your ability to cheer, however your continued standing can interfere -- interfere with other's ability to enjoy the game from their seats."
How do you interpret that?
STIPE: I basically interpret that as a guideline to be courteous to other people. It doesn't specifically say when you can or when you cannot stand. So really, if nobody has a problem behind me, I should be able to stand whenever I want.
HOLMES: All right. So from -- moving on, as I wrap this up with you here, if you're asked to sit down on a third or fourth down, you will do it if -- if you're asked, but you hope not to be asked. Correct?
STIPE: Honestly, on third down all day, and fourth down, I'll be standing up.
HOLMES: Even if that means you might get kick out again?
STIPE: There -- there really shouldn't be any reason that I'll be kicked out because the majority of the Cleveland Browns fans after this story are going to be pretty much standing up the whole time because I love my Cleveland Browns and I love my dog pound fans so let's go get them today.
HOLMES: All right, my man. I love it. Well, sir, enjoy the game today. If you get kicked out again let us know and we'll -- we'll talk about it some more but this is a debate that everybody's gotten into. We've all been to games or have been to concerts, somebody might be standing too much or maybe you think somebody behind you should be standing more. So it's a -- something that affects us all but good luck today. Who are you playing today, by the way?
STIPE: We're going to spank the Titans today, T.J.
HOLMES: Yes, you probably will -- the Titans. Yes, probably. All right, my man, Rob good to talk to you. Enjoy the game.
ROB: Go Browns.
HOLMES: Well, 32 minutes past the hour now. I don't know how to go from that to a church and state debate now. So I'm just going to go for it.
This is happening in the Supreme Court, a case to tell you but. Churches: should they be allowed to hire and fire whoever they want and not really have to adhere to anti-discrimination laws? Supreme Court taking up the case. We're taking it up in our "Faces of Faith".
Stay with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Well, we're just past the bottom of the hour on this CNN SUNDAY MORNING. Welcome back to you all. I'm T.J. Holmes. Thank you so much for being here.
Well, the Supreme Court is back in session tomorrow and about to take up one of the most important religious cases we've seen in some 40 years; at least that's according to the experts. The outcome could affect every church, every religious institution in this country.
Right now churches and other religious institutions don't have to follow antidiscrimination laws in hiring and firing clergy members. That's because of what's called the Ministerial Exception. Now the court will decide if that exception should apply to other church workers, like maybe teachers or administrators.
Here to talk us through this and this case is Mark Chopko. he's adjunct professor of church state law at Georgetown University also a lawyer who represents religious institutions. Sir, thank you so much for being here.
(CROSSTALK)
MARK CHOPKO, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I'm happy T.J.
HOLMES: Explain first to our viewers the idea in the first place of this rule of Ministerial Exception. Why is it there in the first place?
CHOPKO: Well, the Ministerial Exception is part of the first amendment body of law that protects religious institutions from being regulated by the government. Since the dawn of the republic, religious institutions have had the right to conduct their internal affairs, including to select who will minister for them, without interference by the government.
Now this case presents a classic clash now between the non- discrimination rules on the one hand, which is a principle Americans care about, equality in the workplace; and the First Amendment, separation of church and state on the other.
HOLMES: So the question here is going to be, yes, you have a right and you don't have to adhere to antidiscrimination laws if you're talking about someone who would actually as you're saying administering the religion who is -- who is preaching -- the clergy.
But what about that pastor's secretary? What have the courts said about that person and if the churches should still follow and have this exception when it comes to hiring someone who is maybe just cleaning the halls or -- or like I said, a secretary.
CHOPKO: Well, the Ministerial Exception applies to just what it says -- ministers. And each body of faith has a different definition of what that means. It may not include the janitors, it may not include the church secretary, but it might include somebody who is like a communications director because that's a person that's responsible for the dissemination of a religious message, or in this case the church -- the Lutheran Church Missouri send it and takes the position that it applies to elementary school teachers in -- in its schools. The reason is that teachers are integral to evangelizing the young and making sure that the young understand the expectations of the religious community. So there is a functional equivalency between somebody who's ordained on the one hand and somebody who is not ordained but responsible for evangelization.
In this case the teacher herself was commissioned as a teacher which meant that she was called and voted on by the congregation.
HOLMES: Well sir, on a larger scale here now, what would happen --
(CROSSTALK)
CHOPKO: Yes.
HOLMES: -- in this country if the Ministerial Exception went away?
CHOPKO: If the Ministerial Exception went away, it would be -- it would involve considerably more interference by the government in the internal affairs of religious organizations. There would be a very small core, as you said in the set-up to the piece, where clergy would be protected against -- the churches would have the right to deal with their own clergy, somebody that they ordained.
But there are a number of churches that don't ordain clergy, would those churches be at risk.
There are a number of religious organizations, religions that say anybody involved in the dissemination of the faith message should be within our purview. Are those people now going to be subject to the antidiscrimination rules? It means increased cost. It means increased litigation. It means increased expense for churches.
And for a number of -- especially the smaller churches, they're not going to be able to compete with two years or three years of litigation with the United States government.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Right.
CHOPKO: And this case started in 2004. Seven years later it's in the United States Supreme Court. There are going to be very few faith communities that will be able to sustain that kind of litigation because their resources are going into charity and mission.
HOLMES: All right. Well Mr. Mark Chopko this is a fascinating topic that I'm glad we were able to get on the record and bring to our viewers' attention. Because like you said, this could affect just about every religious institution in this country.
So an important one the Supreme Court is about to take up.
Sir, thank you for your time today. CHOPKO: You're very welcome. Take care.
HOLMES: All right, we're about 20 minutes to the top of the hour.
And if you want more about religion and spirituality, you can go to our belief blog at CNN.com/belief and share your thoughts there.
Also coming up about 20 minutes from now, "State of the Union" with our Candy Crowley and one of her guests today, former Vice President Dick Cheney. We'll check in with Candy in just a moment.
Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Oh we're not just playing that for Candy Crowley. There is a reason we are playing this song. Donna Summer she is one of 15 people nominated for the "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". You know the song, you know it well. We'll find out which of the nominees will actually get into the Hall of Fame.
But what do you think, Candy? Can we start playing that for you every -- every single Sunday?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN HOST, "STATE OF THE UNION": Please. I love that song. I love that song. Is that a flash -- from "Flash Dance"?
HOLMES: Oh you got me there.
CROWLEY: I think it was.
HOLMES: Anybody, ok, maybe. We'll go with that. Yes, Reynolds Wolf just yelled yes. So there you go.
CROWLEY: He knows.
HOLMES: He knows. Well, how are you this morning?
CROWLEY: I am very good, thank you very much, because we have the former Vice President this morning.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Well, the former Vice President.
CROWLEY: So that's always kind of fun.
HOLMES: And his daughter as well, joining you? Liz Cheney.
CROWLEY: Yes. Yes, Liz Cheney and Dick Cheney; she helped him write his book. You know, he has been out pushing the book and so we have them both this morning. We want to talk about, you know, something near and dear to his heart and that's the war against terror. And obviously we had a big deal for the Obama Administration, a big get, if you will. Obviously it involves the death of another human being but in the war on terror, this was a huge strike for the U.S. So I want to get both their reaction to that.
HOLMES: Any politics in there?
CROWLEY: Oh, please. Sure. Sure.
HOLMES: About the candidates?
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: About the candidates, yes. We're going -- terror and politics, you know. Some people think it is the same thing but it is not. And so -- yes, we will do both because it is just such an interesting year this year for Republicans. A lot of people have looked at the field and thought that it's getting a little sort of isolationist, a little kind of bring the folks back home, wanting to get out of the war in Afghanistan, certainly in Iraq; and also just the move to the right that the Tea Party has forced on some of these candidates just to get their take on it.
HOLMES: And Herman Cain? Really? Really, Candy? Herman Cain? He's had a heck of a few days.
CROWLEY: You know -- well, you know, what's interesting here is, not a single vote's been cast that means anything. We've had lots of straw polls. We've had lots of this. We have to wait until January and I think -- look, what this means for Herman Cain and certainly he's come up in the polls, certainly winning the Florida straw poll was big. But here's what it means for him. It means that he can continue until January and play in the caucuses in Iowa.
That's kind of the name of the game here if you're one of the candidates that a lot of people say, oh, this isn't going to work or he doesn't have a chance. If you can stay in the game and continue to build, and get to those Iowa caucuses, then anything can happen, as we know in the Iowa caucuses and then you move on.
So it's good for him but it's a little too early for us to say, sure, you know. So and so can be president -- we'll see. Nobody's voted yet.
HOLMES: Well, you say we have to wait until January but last I heard they might be voting next week in some of these primaries. They keep shuffling this thing around.
CROWLEY: That's true.
HOLMES: We shall see. Candy, it's always good to see you. And for our viewers, you have 14 more minutes to wait before you see more of Candy Crowley. Her show, "STATE OF THE UNION" 9:00 a.m. Eastern, 6:00 a.m. Pacific.
Candy, good to see you.
CROWLEY: Good to see you.
HOLMES: All right. As we get close to the top of the hour -- do you all remember this scene? I'm just going to give you a little reminder here. Gene Simmons and his long-time girlfriend, they were on "THE JOY BEHAR SHOW" and then this happened?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENE SIMMONS, MEMBER OF "KISS": My back is good, my schmeckel not so much.
SHANNON TWEED, GIRLFRIEND OF GENE SIMMONS: That's very nice of you to joke about that.
SIMMONS: It's a joke. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) where are you going? What are you doing?
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: She's done with you.
TWEED: So rude of you to joke about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Well, she walked out on him. She said I'm done with you, but clearly not. We've got an update on those two coming up.
But first to our troops: Here in this country and around the world, a special message for you now from Tyrese.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TYRESE GIBSON, ACTOR AND SINGER: Want to send a special shout out to all of the troops. All right? For all of you all that are listening to this. The reason that we're safe and your families and your loved ones are safe, because you put your life on the line to keep us safe. And we don't take you all for granted. I know I don't. God bless you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: About nine minutes to the top of the hour now. The Supreme Court opens its new session tomorrow; a couple of high-profile cases on the docket. I asked our Supreme Court producer Bill Mears which one case could have the biggest impact on everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM MEARS, CNN SUPREME COURT PRODUCER: In a word: health care. It is the issue that's coming before the court in just a few months. The justices are almost certainly to take it. It is the massive reform effort championed by President Obama. It's been floating around the Appeals Courts for months now. The Supreme Court's poised to take on this issue. They're almost forced to take it.
We expect to hear this case probably next February or March with a ruling by June right in the thick of the presidential race. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: A couple of other cases that everybody will be keeping an eye on -- the court will look at the FCC's authority to punish stations over bad language on their air. Also they'll look at whether police have the right to track your car using GPS without a warrant. Also, whether people taken to jail should be subjected to a strip search, regardless of the crime.
Well, a look at some things happening around the world now. And all eyes on Denmark. Just had a new law -- a new tax go into place, that tax could be coming to a country near you. This is a fat tax on fatty food -- the ones that are bad for you but are, oh, so delicious.
They're doing this -- they're trying to really slim down their population. They have an issue with obesity there so people will have to pay extra for those fatty foods you love, you know, pizza, chips, even butter, things like that. Those that have a high-saturated fat content; so the higher it is, the higher the tax.
Just an example here, consumers are going to pay out 30 percent more for butter, 8 percent more for chips. Again obesity a growing problem there in Denmark but this is believed to be the first of its kind law in the world.
Well, take a look at the screen. I won't tell what you this is. I'll try to get to you make out what it is. Where is -- I don't have the picture there for you -- there it is. You see that? Can you make out what this is? Yes.
That is the President of the United States, or at least an image, I should say, of the President of the United States in a bow tie and suspenders next to an "OFC". It looks awfully like KFC, does it not? Well, it's exactly what it's supposed to be. OFC stands for "Obama Fried Chicken".
The story we are getting from the UK's "Daily Mail". It's on their Web site. This is actually a Chinese ad. It has a slogan even that says, quote, "we're so cool, aren't we?" Clearly some people are having a reaction to this. Maybe the reaction you're having right now thinking this is racist, it's rude and it's just playing into certain stereotypes. But apparently over in China they think this is going to help them sell some chicken.
Well, after 28 years together and two kids, "Kiss" base player Gene Simmons finally married his long-time girlfriend Shannon Tweed. His publicist says they got married in Beverly Hills.
A lot of people may be surprised to hear this because of some of the recent public fights they've had, including one they had with our Joy Behar in June.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How's your back, Gene?
SIMMONS: My back is good, my schmeckel not so much.
TWEED: That's very nice of you to joke about that.
SIMMONS: It's a joke. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) where are you going? What are you doing?
TWEED: So rude.
BEHAR: She's done with you.
TWEED: So rude of you to joke about it.
SIMMONS: I was just joking because she's a comedian. Thanks for the question.
BEHAR: I'm sorry. You blaming it on me? Don't put this on me. This is all yours.
SIMMONS: You did that entire set-up. Please come back here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: I thought she actually left. She just walked around a little bit. Is she walking out? Ok, there we go. She couldn't find her way out, I'm told. But the whole thing was kind of awkward there. And yes, the question -- yes, come on, Joy, give the guy a break.
This all came after Simmons was actually talking -- he's done this talking before about the 5,000 women he says he's slept with, including a lot of them while he and Tweed, his now new wife, while they were together over the past 28 years. Their reality show coming to a network near you, I'm sure.
Reynolds? I'm not going to segue. Ok? Just good morning.
REYNOLDS WOLF, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes. That was some weird stuff, man. Just live TV. You never know what's going to happen. Although, was -- it doesn't matter.
All right. We're going to talk about some weather. We've got some interesting stuff. You know, this is the time of the year we often talk about the fall colors and we are definitely into the fall season. Of course, this is the first full weekend of October.
Well, we're seeing in different color -- this happened to be white, as in snowflakes. We're going to tell you where they are falling. Coming up, we'll show you the goods in a few moments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: "STATE OF THE UNION" with Candy Crowley coming your way in just a couple of minutes. But first let's say good morning once again to Reynolds Wolf. You'll be talking about snow. We have evidence of it now?
WOLF: Proof is important. HOLMES: Not that I didn't believe you. I'm sorry.
WOLF: Proof is important. We've got -- what could prove something better than video? Let's go right to it. We have this video that was sent in. This was from Timberline Resort in Davis, West Virginia. And voila -- don't blink.
HOLMES: Wow, it is really coming down there, Reynolds.
WOLF: Yes. Some snow.
We didn't say it was going to be white-out conditions. We were going to say, you know, it's like the Donner part, trying to make it to California. It's not that kind of thing. It is just some snowflakes.
The combination of why we see that is a -- well, a combination. What we have is you get some cold air that's coming in from the north. We've got plenty of moisture from the Atlantic and the result is some snow, seen some up near parts of I-80. Pittsburgh looks pretty good; some scattered showers expected for the day.
As we wrap things up, you can expect more rain for parts of the northeast, dry across the nation's midsection. Out to the west some rain from San Francisco northward to Seattle and plenty of heat in the Central Plains.
Back to you -- T.J.
HOLMES: Good shot, Reynolds. You said there was snow -- there was snow. It doesn't matter how much.
WOLF: Just a little bit, there's snow.
HOLMES: All right. Reynolds, thank you.
And thank you all for spending some time with us on this CNN SATURDAY and SUNDAY MORNING but don't go anywhere because Candy Crowley and "STATE OF THE UNION" starts about right now.
