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Sarah Palin Announces She Will Not Run for President; Bank Backlash; Interview with Jon Huntsman; Steve Jobs Dies

Aired October 5, 2011 - 19:00   ET


JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING USA": Erin Burnett OUTFRONT starts right now. She's here to take it away and Sarah Palin news and Christy Turlington -- Erin.

ERIN BURNETT, HOST: That's right and we've got all of the ladies on the show tonight. All right, we've got the Sarah Palin story. And we're also on the front lines in Pakistan, I'll go inside a women's jail with you tonight. Our guest, supermodel Christy Turlington shines a light on a disturbing statistic.

Then Newark magazine calls us out, "Seriously?!" and the "Bottom Line" on Sarah Palin. Breaking news, she is not running for president. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Breaking news, Sarah Palin choosing not to run for the Republican presidential nomination. She went on the Mark Levin (ph) radio show in the past hour, made it clear she's not running and she also released a letter to her supporters. She said she "can be more effective in a decisive role to help elect other true public servants to office." Well, why now? Scott Conroy of RealClearPolitics and co- author of "Sarah from Alaska" has spoken to the Palins since the decision. Scott, good to have you with you and I know you've been rushing to get on the phone with us. So what can you tell us?

SCOTT CONROY, CO-AUTHOR, "SARAH FROM ALASKA" (via phone): Hey, Erin, great to be here. Well I spoke to some members of Palin's inner circle tonight and two points, one, they say that the family was a big issue, that they, you know, really couldn't get the entire family on board for a presidential run and that was a big reason that made her say no in the end.

Another thing is that, you know, she really was seriously considering this. I'm told that as of a few weeks ago she was having meetings in Arizona with some of her staff to talk it over. Some of the political consultants that she brought in really, I think, brought home what a time commitment it would be, and how much stress it would put on her and her family and so in the end she decided against it. But you know this is something that she really did consider for a very long time and I think that's the reason why she waited so long to make the announcement.

BURNETT: Interesting, Scott. I know you've been saying she did have some very formal family meetings just over the past few days.

CONROY: Yes. Not necessarily over the past few days. I mean she did have meetings both with family and with staff to really go through the logistics of how she would do this. I mean you know I was told by one member of her inner circle that at one point, and this was several weeks ago that they had a meeting and this person had come away pretty convinced that she was going to do this, that she was going to run.


CONROY: They had a plan in place to sort of try to make her, you know, the go-to Tea Party candidate, sort of you know cast aside Rick Perry, if that was going to be his role. But in the end, you know, frankly, she probably looked at polls and she said she doesn't look at polls but you know she looked at the numbers here and she probably realized this would have been a very, very steep climb for her.

BURNETT: Right and certainly looking at those polls and in a dead heat -- in a race between her and President Obama he would have handily beat her. A quick question to though to you -- since you followed her for so long, Scott, what does she do? I mean does she just remain a commentator on FOX News and comment on the field out there. What does she do?

CONROY: Yes I think -- I mean I'm actually one that thinks that she is in a tough spot right now, even for doing that which she of course will continue to do. You know, she has a lot of very, very staunch supporters that have put in a lot of time and energy into, you know, helping out with the campaign that is not going to exist, people that have lived in Iowa for months, you know, organizing on her behalf and it's going to be really tough, I think, for her to explain her decision to those folks because they were so invested in this. They're so invested in her personally.

A lot of these people really think of her almost as a family member. It's really something unique in politics. So I think you know maintaining her base of support is going to be a difficult thing for her at this point and also, you know, of course with you know much of mainstream America and the media, you know people tend to write her off and you know the line now is going to be like oh well, she just strung us all along you know for this amount of time.


CONROY: So it's going to be hard for her to really -- I do think she'll haven an influence but I think that she has to figure out a way to get back into this thing as far as even, you know, having an impact on the race --


CONROY: It's going to be tough.

BURNETT: All right, well thanks so much. Appreciate your taking the time. Scott Conroy, as we said again has covered Ms. Palin since the 2008 election and wrote the book "Sarah from Alaska."

Well what is going to happen to all of those supporters? Because as Scott said, it was unusual in American politics. A lot of her supporters truly loved her, viewed her as family, and now who will they vote for? Well former Romney adviser Kevin Madden joins us. Our chief political analyst Gloria Borger joins us, and Michael Duhaime, the Republican strategist who was chief strategist for Chris Christie's gubernatorial campaign in 2009, so obviously you've had a very busy few days.

We've got a lot going on here, Kevin, so let me start with you -- Palin out, Christie out, what is -- what is going to happen here? Where will her supporters, those loyal supporters go?

KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER ADVISER TO MITT ROMNEY: Well, look, I think it's -- I'm not sure how the -- how great of an impact this will have on the field yet. One thing I would say now is that there are no more folks looking to see if anybody else is going to get in. We've got the field, now it's settled. But as loyal and as united as Sarah Palin's supporters were in their devotion to her, they are not a monolithic bloc and they are somewhat divided on who they would support were she not to get in the race.

So I know that there are a lot of folks that would say well she fits the Tea Party profile but there are a number of candidates in this race that try to fit that Tea Party profile. So, some of that support, which actually has been dwindling over the last few months, if you look at the polls, it's somewhat more minimal now. And if broken up among that field of Tea Party candidates whether it's Herman Cain, Rick Perry, or Newt Gingrich or Rick Santorum, you know whether or not it all goes in one bloc that's unlikely. So I think it's -- it'll probably be a little bit more of a diluted effect on the field at large.

BURNETT: Gloria, I just looking at my BlackBerry here, we got an e-mail with Rick Perry as the first candidate to put out a response.


BURNETT: Responses, I'm sure you're looking at it.


BURNETT: And he says quote, "Sarah Palin's a good friend, great American, and a true patriot. I respect her decision. I know she will continue to be a strong voice for conservative values and needed change in Washington." He has been dropping in the polls.

BORGER: Right.

BURNETT: He's the person you would think would be the one to benefit, do you?

BORGER: Well he might eventually. The end of that I think it's unwritten, would be, P.S., please endorse me if you decide to endorse somebody in the long term, and I think you know that's by the way a big question out there. At some point, if this becomes a very divisive primary, if there are two front-runners would Sarah Palin in the end jump in and decide -- and take a risk and see if she could become a kingmaker?

Look, Rick Perry has been losing some altitude with Tea Party voters. But you know Tea Party voters have been fickle. They've moved from candidate to candidate to candidate, whether it's Cain one day, Bachmann the next week, or Perry, and that's because they're kind of looking around for this perfect candidate. And in truth, now that this field is settled, they're not going to find the perfect candidate, so they're just going to have to decide whether there's somebody in this field they can get behind and try and beat Barack Obama.

BURNETT: Mike, let me ask you, is there something in common here perhaps? She's obviously -- a lot of differences between Chris Christie and Sarah Palin on a lot of issue, but both of them are citing their families, and their gut. And I'm curious what Chris Christie went through. I mean is this just a decision about because of social media and because of the 24-hour media cycle and because of the miserable focus on one's personal life people just don't want to do it?

MICHAEL DUHAIME, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think with Governor Christie it was a commitment he's made to the folks in New Jersey though. He's been governor for 20 months. He's had great accomplishments in 20 months in terms of restructuring our long-term debt and he's somebody -- probably the most consequential governor in America right now in either party, so in his case he just felt like his job was unfinished in New Jersey.

BURNETT: Would he have made a different decision at all had he known that Sarah Palin was going to get out the next day.

DUHAIME: Clearly it had no impact on his decision. His decision was solely based on his commitment to New Jersey.

BURNETT: So what's going to happen here in terms of the, I guess the Romney/Cain, which is what we're seeing now. I mean does this, Kevin, in your view really change? Is Perry going to rise up or is this not just a settled field but a field that is ultimately Mitt Romney or Herman Cain?

MADDEN: Well you know we're still at the beginning of this process. We haven't really had one contest. We haven't reached Iowa. We haven't reached New Hampshire yet. I think the thing that I would counsel against anybody over in too much on an over analysis on where the race stands is that public opinion is not an event, it's a evolution. So we're at the very beginning of these contests. There's going to be a number of debates.

There's going to be arguments over the big policy issues and ultimately I think where you know someone like Governor Romney feels best positioned is that he's actually gone out there and put together the best vision for the party and the reason that he can beat Barack Obama. And ultimately Herman Cain, Rick Perry and those others they still have to challenge Governor Romney on that and that's where you'll probably see the race go over the next few weeks.

BORGER: And Erin, do not count Rick Perry out. I mean today we got the news that, for the last quarter, he's raises $17 million --


BORGER: -- which is more money than Mitt Romney will have raised in that last quarter and when you have that kind of money, you're going to stay in for the long haul.

BURNETT: And Mike, what about, though, when we look at the percent, they're saying don't count out Rick Perry. What about -- I mean and everyone says the field is settled, but when you look at Mitt Romney as either -- depending on the poll -- tied for the lead or the lead, 17 or 20 percent that is hardly definitive. I mean can we be so sure that someone else doesn't come in.

DUHAIME: I think the field is unsettled. Just the fact that Herman Cain has risen from nowhere really in the last few weeks to be a major player in this I think shows how unsettled the field is. But I do agree with Kevin that right now it's Governor Romney's to lose. He's been a very strong candidate at this point. He's a very steady candidate. I think there are some things he certainly needs to do to solidify that. This might be a moment in time where he can do that, but I think the numbers do indicate that it is still wide open.

BURNETT: All right, thanks so much to all three of you. Really appreciate your all taking the time.

All right, well still to come the banks. Now the banks do not like Washington's new rules. We know that, but we looked into the numbers. All of those fees they're slapping on us, they're making us pay way too much. We did the math. We've got a banker. And then "New York" magazine makes us take a pregnant pause when it comes to being original, "Seriously?!"

And super model Christy Turlington joins us to discuss problems in Pakistan, all of this OUTFRONT.


BURNETT: The number tonight, 1,430,372. That's how many more Twitter followers President Obama has than Shakira. Both have quite a few. The president has just over 10 million; Shakira just under nine. Why do we make this comparison? Because today Shakira was appointed to President Obama's Advisory Commission on educational excellence for Hispanics, (INAUDIBLE) the woman we admire.

Well Wall Street protests are growing. New York, Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Albuquerque -- you're looking at shots of all of them now. There is something here reminiscent of the early days of the Tea Party, which actually shares some things in common with the Wall Street occupiers. They're both grassroots organization, from the ground up. They're both angry at Washington.

And while most participants are sincere, there is hate in both groups. Most important, while they're on opposite sides of American politics, they agree on something huge. They both hate the bailout of the banks and share animosity to the banks in general, which we think is a sign of a real issue because banks should be great for America. Never mind what we do without ATMs and places to store our money.

Banks mean jobs. Banks in America and there are more than 7,000 of them employ almost 1.8 million Americans, more than America's largest private employer, Walmart. Banks employ so many people that one bank's lay-off can skew the jobs report for the entire nation. I'm talking about Bank of America, which laid off 30,000 employees in September, almost a third of the nation's total planned job cuts for the month, so we should be rooting for the banks.

The problem is they make it really hard when they lash out at Washington's new rules by slapping fees on consumers. And I mean there is a tsunami of fees. Citibank hiking fees today again, set to charge $20 a month for accounts between six and $15,000. Bank of America and Sun Trust, $5 debit card fees, JPMorgan Chase and Wells Fargo testing $3 debit card fees. Well I asked Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner about this last night.


TIMOTHY GEITHNER, TREASURY SECRETARY: The banks are blaming the reforms in the government for any -- everything --


GEITHNER: -- including lots of problems that they, themselves, were central to causing and the people are terribly -- most people are terribly angry and frustrated with that.


GEITHNER: And they want to see things changed. And what we're trying to do is to make sure that we put in place the kind of protections consumers and investors deserves. There's no -- there's no -- nothing strange about the fact that banks are resisting it, are pushing back, they're trying to weaken those reforms and we're going to push back harder.

BURNETT: You're going to fight --

GEITHNER: And in the end we're going to prevail.


BURNETT: The banks say Washington reforms have hurt them so much that the fees are the only way to make money. But that is not true. Take Bank of America. They are planning to put a $5 monthly fee on debit cards. And analysts who ran the numbers today for us tell us they will make 13 percent more money on that than they did before the regulations and that's just debit fees.

Bank of America is also launching $9 monthly fees on some checking accounts. Wow. Russell Goldsmith is on the OUTFRONT "Strike Team" (INAUDIBLE) 20 CEOs, investors and entrepreneurs that I picked to answer the tough questions about the economy this election season.

He's a CEO and chairman of the 26th biggest bank in the country, City National. Mr. Goldsmith, good to have you with us. I appreciate it. When you look at these numbers, it is really -- it's really upsetting because it just doesn't feel right. And I want to ask you the first question. Are you doing what Bank of America and some of these other big banks are doing, which is charging debit card fees or increasing their ATM fees?

RUSSELL GOLDSMITH, CEO, CITY NATIONAL BANK: At City National Bank we're not changing our fees at all, Erin. We're not putting in debit card fee charges and we're not raising our minimums. We made virtually no changes in our consumer fees in the last 12 months.

BURNETT: So what is going on with the big banks and in particular that analysis from Bank of America that even with the fees they've already said they're doing they're going to make 13 percent more than before the regulations and the financial crisis and that's before the new fees they're about to try out?

GOLDSMITH: Well, you know, a lot of the biggest banks are showing a lack of sensitivity right now to the economic environment that we're in and to the kind of issues that the American people feel about. Look, the Durbin amendment is not good law. It's price fixing based on no facts, no studies. It's not right.

But they're responding to it in a way that at City National and frankly a number of banks are not going to raise fees. We may disagree with the law but we understand the spirit of it and we're going to absorb the cost because it's the right thing to do for our clients.

BURNETT: And explain to me why it is that some of the midsized banks, like yours, are not doing it when the big banks are. Is this another case of they're just so big, they're too big?

GOLDSMITH: I don't think it's a question of they're too big. It's about their focus. At City National and a lot of midsize banks we're the local leader, we're the big local bank, we're connects to the community, we're very focused on meeting the needs of our community. I think one of the unfortunate things for the entire banking industry, and I applaud what you said about it at the beginning is the fact that banks are vital engines of this economy.

At City National we're lending money. Lots of banks are lending money. Our people are involved. We're donating. We're volunteering. We're helping businesses get going. And that's being obscured over this debit card fee business --

BURNETT: So what --

GOLDSMITH: -- and that's an unfortunate message.

BURNETT: And what can the banks do, in general? Because I mean we're looking at the fees here specifically, which I have a real issue with because they're saying they just make up what they're, you know what they're losing on the regulation and clearly when you look at the numbers, at lest in the case we gave specifically, it doesn't appear to be the case at all, but on top of that you have just in general it feels like an animosity and a tone-deaf nature especially when you're looking around the country at people who are frustrated and angry at the banks. What should your industry do right now? Is this a time where you should have all of the big bank CEOs stand up and talk to the protesters or do something to say we're patriotic and want to bill this country, too.

GOLDSMITH: Well I think you know I'm here talking to you trying to explain that at City National we're not doing what some of these big guys are doing. Unfortunately this inappropriate law, this price fixing got passed in the middle of the night. There are no facts and nobody knows what the facts are, and the banks obviously can't sit down as a group and agree on pricing.

That would be illegal. If this had been done in a more appropriate regulatory framework, maybe it would have worked out better, but I think the best thing to do, like we're doing, is just leave your prices where they are, run your business, absorb this, at least while this economy's so tough and help America get through it as we're all doing by making loans and providing investment advice and doing a bunch of things that are more important frankly than this that are being obscured by this issue.

BURNETT: Russell Goldsmith thanks very much. We appreciate it. And of course, the issue about loans and Americans' perception of the lack of loans is something we're going to keep talking about. But please find out more about our "Strike Team",, and let us know what you think of those bank fees and what those big bank CEOs should do to be more pro-America right now.

Coming up, the activation (ph) on Wall Street, adding unions and growing in numbers. We'll talk to the president of the United Federation of Teachers.

Another disturbing audiotape played at the Michael Jackson death trial and what "New York" magazine said about us today -- "Seriously?!" -- OUTRONT.


BURNETT: We cover a lot of serious issues on this show, but here's one that's more "Seriously?!" This afternoon, "New York" magazine had some fun at our expense comparing this segment to one done by Seth Myers on "Weekend Update". They basically called us unoriginal. Now they did it in a fun way but we enjoyed this because just this month both "New York" magazine and "Ebony" magazine released covers featuring very pregnant and very nude women. On the left, actress Nia Long on "Ebony", on the right a woman in her 50's on "New York" magazine's cover.

Now this seems seriously unoriginal to us because in case you haven't kept count, it has been over 20 years since Demi Moore posed for the photo you're both ripping off, 20 years, it's seriously not that shocking or interesting to put a pregnant woman on the cover anymore. Now I know you're going to say that it was a tribute, but dozens and dozens and dozens of magazines have done the same tribute over the years. Don't believe us, well here are a few of the most memorable ones.

With a couple you might not be expecting -- Claudia Schiffer, Cindy Crawford, Myleene Klass, Monica Bellucci, Christina Aguilera, Britney Spears, Eva Herzigova -- sorry She-Hulk. That was a good one. Quasar -- there we go -- and Leslie Nielsen -- yes, Pinky. OK, look I know how tough it can be to come up with new material especially when you're a monthly or even a weekly magazine. But surely you can do better than that, "Seriously?!"


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This has been "Really!?! with Seth and Amy".


BURNETT: I guess we all borrow the good ideas, "Seriously?!" And guess what, "New York" magazine. We were OUTFRONT of you on the SNL story. Check out our blog at, OUTFRONT for a clip of this very segment from our rehearsal show on September 26th, a full week before we launched and nine days before your admittedly very funny shot at us, "Seriously?!"

Still OUTFRONT, we talk to Jon Huntsman and the disturbing audio played for the jurors at the trial of Michael Jackson's doctor and supermodel filmmaker Christy Turlington.


BURNETT: We'll start the second half of our show with stories we care about where we focus on our own reporting. We made the calls and we found the OUTFRONT 5.

First up: Sarah Palin out. Tea party favorite announcing she's not going to run for president. Scott Conroy, who covered Palin during the 2008 election season, told us this --


CONROY: (via telephone): She really was seriously considering this. I'm told that, as of a few weeks ago, she was having meetings in Arizona with some of her staff and talked it over. Some of the political consultants that she brought in really I think brought home what a time commitment it would be, how much stress it would put on her and her family. And so, in the end, she decided against it.


BURNETT: So, what's next? Palin say she's will help other candidates get elected.

Number two: protests on Wall Street growing larger today. Labor unions, including nurses and transit workers, joined protesters across the financial district. The president of the United Federation of Teachers came out front and said, quote, "This issue, fairness for all Americans, is what everyone should be talking about, and I couldn't be more proud of the work the protesters have done to make this conversation possible."

Protests show no sign of letting up.

Number three: tax the millionaires. That's Senate Leader Harry Reid's plan to pay for the president's job bill. The Nevada Democrat today unveiled a 5 percent tax on anyone making more than a million bucks. He says it will raise nearly $450 billion, which is exactly enough to pay for the president's jobs bill.

But with Republicans and some Democrats vowing to block any tax increase, Reid may have a problem getting votes.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell tells us, quote, "We don't think raising taxes in the middle of a recession is a good idea."

And the president himself declined several offers to endorse the idea.

Number four: Madoff victims getting checks. Over 1,200 investors who lost money in the largest Ponzi scheme ever will be getting some of their money back -- $312 million in checks were being mailed in the first round of restitution payments. Now, this means the average payment will be roughly $253,000.

We spoke to an investor who was ripped off by Madoff and here's what she said, "It's too little to late, what good is 4.5 cents on a dollar?"

Well, it has been 61 days since the U.S. lost its top credit rating. What are we doing to get it back?


BURNETT: Former Utah governor and ambassador to China, Jon Huntsman, has been working the crowds. But he hasn't gotten much traction. The latest poll from CBS news has Governor Huntsman with just 2 percent support among likely primary voters, although he's done much better in New Hampshire, as you can see.

But why? The governor has gotten some big-time support from big- time names, like John Mack, from Morgan Stanley; Phil Knight, chairman of Nike; former homeland security chief, Governor Tom Ridge; and Jeb Bush, Jr., son of the former Florida governor. Add to that "The Wall Street Journal" has high praise for the governor's economic plan.

Governor Jon Huntsman joins us now and he comes to us from Knoxville, Tennessee.

Governor and Ambassador Huntsman, thanks so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

Why aren't you doing better? You got the endorsements. What's happening?

JON HUNTSMAN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've got the endorsements. We've got a plan. We have a message. The only numbers, Erin, at this point that really matter are those in New Hampshire, because that's where you have our nation's first primary, that's where people have seen it all and heard it all. And in order to get up in the polls there, you've got to have a message that is compelling, that is believable, that is authentic, and one more where the people of New Hampshire can hear it and believe it's the right vision for the United States.

We've done 75 events now in New Hampshire. And we're going to be doing a whole lot more. And as we've seen in elections past, how one does New Hampshire and we're going to win New Hampshire, that always then predicts the future outcome of the race. And I like our chances in New Hampshire. So, keep your eyes focuses there.

BURNETT: And we are. But, I mean, look at the polls here, Mitt Romney is running at 41 percent in New Hampshire. You're running at 10. Even with all of your efforts, and I wanted to ask you about a tweet that you wrote, and see if this is part of the reason why you're facing an uphill climb. You tweeted, quote, "To be clear, I believe in evolution, and trust scientists on global warming. Call me crazy."

Do you think the Republican Party has gone too far to the right in the primaries where someone with your views can't get traction?

HUNTSMAN: My point is that, in order to win the election, we actually have to win over some of the people who voted for Barack Obama last time. And that means if you want to win, if you want to be a successful party, we've got to win over some Republicans who have become unaffiliated voters. We've got win over independent voters. We've got to win over the so-called conservative Democrats that Reagan used to have when he was president.

You can't run from science. You can't run from mainstream conservatism and expect to win the election.

BURNETT: Do you wish you ran as an independent?

HUNTSMAN: No. I've always been a Republican. I've been involved in the trenches. I've worked for or on the campaigns of every Republican since I was old enough to vote. And I believe that we're going to return to the big tent Republican Party.

BURNETT: Before you go, I wanted to ask you one question, though, that I've been curious. There are a lot of ads running, explaining the Mormon religion to Americans and it seems to be no coincidence that they are running because you and Mitt Romney are running for president, and it's an opportunity for people who are Mormon and religious to spread their religion around the country.

We'll show one of them, Sally Marx, talking about what she does for a loving, why it's perfect for the Lord to use her.

Do you think that that's OK? Are you frustrated that your campaign can being used for religious purposes?

HUNTSMAN: Well, I don't much care one way or the other. Some people wear religion on their sleeve, I wear it in my heart. For me, it's a very, very personal thing.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Governor Huntsman, thanks so much again.

HUNTSMAN: Erin, always a pleasure. Congratulations on your new show.


BURNETT: All right. Let's check in with Anderson Cooper with a look what's ahead on "A.C. 360."

Hey, Anderson.


We're covering breaking news, obviously, on "360." After months of thrusting herself in the spotlight, the Republican candidate events and refusing to say if she would or wouldn't run, today, she made it official, she's not running. We have inside reporting tonight from the inner circles to Sarah Palin. Our political panel will join us with how Palin's announcement could be a game changer for some candidates already in the race.

Also, Amanda Knox starting over. This tearful scene at Knox's homecoming is the beginning of rebuilding of a life shattered by nearly four years in an Italian jail. We'll speak to Dr. Drew Pinsky about the challenges ahead for her.

Those stories and tonight's "Ridiculist" at the top of the hour -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right, Anderson, looking forward to that.

Ahead, OUTFRONT, the latest details from the Michael Jackson death trial. And why we can't resist Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.



BURNETT: Hurting Michael Jackson, that's what the jury heard today in the case against his physician.

OK. We are able to report, unfortunately, that Apple is confirming that Steve Jobs has passed away, after a battle with pancreatic cancer. This news just confirmed.

You all may remember on August 24th of this year, Steve Jobs stepped aside, due to his illness. Tim Cook was running Apple. Steve jobs, 56 years old, again, dying of pancreatic cancer.

This is a man who really stood for American exceptionalism, was a man who created the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone, the iPad, all of that. You see him there. In the past few years, he had been battling pancreatic cancer. Obviously, you can see that on his frame. Something investors had been talking about and, obviously, with his final stepping aside which he had done once before with Tim Cook taking the helm at Apple, something that got a lot of attention on Wall Street.

But he really was a man, you see him there -- the reason Apple was exceptional, the products were exceptional and so loved was that he would show up in the black turtleneck and make the presentation, and it became an event with groupies and people around the world waiting for every event. Of course, just yesterday, we had the 4S iPhone announced by Tim Cook with Steve Jobs obviously not there.

I'm lucky enough to have Dr. Sanjay Gupta here.

We were going to be talking about Michael Jackson. But weigh in, if you could here. Obviously, this was a battle where he had succumbed and come back to work and now obviously --

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, 2003 was I think when we first heard for sure that he was sick. And at that point, it was unclear. Was it pancreatic cancer? Was it something else?

You remember for about a year or so, Erin, he actually did not undergo any traditional therapy. He chose to treat this with herbal remedies and things like that. But in 2004, started getting therapy in earnest, at that point subsequently getting a liver transplant a few years later. That made a lot of news at that the point, because, you know, there was so much unknown about his health at that point. He got his liver transplant with really no fanfare, hardly any press coverage. People found about it after the fact.

And like you said, he appeared to be recovering. He got really thin, remember, he said he dismissed --

BURNETT: Yes, gaunt.

GUPTA: Right. And he said this is a hormone imbalance. He never came right out and said, this was pancreatic problem or pancreatic cancer specifically.

You know, even with this announcement that you just mentioned, even then, there was a lot of speculation, has the cancer returned? Is there something else going on? Does he just simply think he can't run the company anymore?

But I think the suspicion was there for some time that the cancer had come back. The pancreatic cancer, as you may know, is one of these really difficult cancers to treat.

BURNETT: People have thought -- I mean, it was sort of an amazing story that he had been able to fight it off for so long.

GUPTA: That's right. And the liver transplant, for example, unconventional, not common therapy, for pancreatic cancer, doesn't work in everybody. But in his case, because he returned, they thought maybe he's on a rare, few category, where he actually got a significant benefit from that and maybe he did for a period of time.

But I tell you, you know, in the medical community, we've been following this along for some time and sort of, since it was more confirmed that he had the pancreatic cancer, we just don't have great treatments for that at this point. And, you know, five-year survival is even limited. We're talking about his case, eight years, at least. 2003 I think is when the diagnoses was confirmed.

BURNETT: And let me just give everyone a little bit more background here, just because he was such a magnificent person I mean really that stood for so much of this country. For those of who you don't know he was adopted, obviously, very close with his family. But his original parents, as Sanjay and I were talking about, is Syrian --

GUPTA: Half Syrian. Yes.

BURNETT: Very interesting background.

GUPTA: He went back and found his adoptive parents and got to know them and sister I think was also an artist, his biological sister.

BURNETT: Mona Simpson. Yes.

GUPTA: So, talented family.

BURNETT: Yes, pretty amazing. And he went to Reed College in Portland, Oregon, but dropped out after one semester -- which I'm sure will surprise no one watching, given what he was able to do. One of his first, at age 12, he asked William Hewlett, the founder of Hewlett-Packard for some parts to complete a school project. And I can't (INAUDIBLE), I mean, but a truly amazing story.

GUPTA: Who would have known we got from there to the iPad, you know, so many years later. So, it's pretty remarkable.

But you're right. You know, so many of these entrepreneurs just sort of showing standard education at that age and going off and doing these incredible things.

BURNETT: And, we can the Web site -- I'm going to that now -- but is confirming that Mr. Jobs has passed away. I'm just pulling that up now here, Sanjay. But you can see it there.

And that is now -- you can see it here, Sanjay -- that is the exact page that you get when it comes back, obviously a picture from several years ago of Mr. Jobs.

But it is something that when he stepped aside on August 24th, that we were all talking about because he has created -- I mean, Sanjay, you travel all the time, I travel all the time, you know, in China, you say to kids -- what do you think of America, and they all just start yelling iPhone. I mean, it really has become a real symbol for America, in a positive way.

GUPTA: And there are so few novel products. I mean, if you look at a lot of the products that come out that have something truly novel, that's truly something you haven't seen before is unusual it seems nowadays. But every time there was an announcement by Apple, I knew what I wanted for, you know, a potential gift. So, it is pretty remarkable.

And I saw that around the world as well. People really loved having these products.

BURNETT: We -- you know, yesterday, we went to the apple store for the 4s and we had fun with it. They were going to come out with the 5, right? And they come out with the 4S.

And you ask all of these people, what's the 4S? They don't care what the 4S is. They don't care if it's better than 4. They just want to have it and that there are so few products in the world people feel that way about.

GUPTA: And without even fully knowing what it is. And they're not cheap. I mean, they're spending a lot of money --


GUPTA: -- on these products but was they buy them in earnest for sure.

BURNETT: So, what -- how unusual was his -- was his battle? Because again I go back to the fact that you know, in a sense people sort of as a cry wolf people started to think he would be able to get through this.

GUPTA: Right.

BURNETT: Because he stepped aside before and come back to run Apple again.

GUPTA: And there are people, you know, if you look at any sort of disease like this, you look at numbers, there are people who are going to fall within the standard curve. But there's always outliers on both sides, people who don't survive very long and people who survive a very long time. And I think people thought he was one of the outliers or that he had a variant of pancreatic cancer. We still don't know what type of pancreatic cancer this, what exactly was causing it.

If it was one of the variants, it wouldn't abide by the typical laws or typical data that we see with this, which is -- again, pancreatic cancer and the glioblastoma, which is tumor of the brain, these are two of the worst tumors in terms of prognosis. If you get it, we don't have great therapies, let's alone a cure, and the numbers are just abysmal at this point.

BURNETT: Sanjay, let's bring in Leander Kahney in the conversation. He wrote "Cult of Mac." And, Leander, obviously, very sad news that this finally has to come to pancreatic cancer. What's your first reaction, though, to the legacy of the man that really stood for American exceptionalism?

LEANDER KAHNEY, AUTHOR, "THE CULT OF MAC" (via telephone): Well, he has incredible legacy. He's had an amazing career. I'd say he's right up there with some of the greatest innovators in American history -- you know, with Edison and with Ford.

He completely set the agenda for the tech industry for 30 years. You know, from the first PC for regular consumers to the Mac, you know, which set the agenda for the desktop era and then he tore it all down with the iPhone and the iPad.

BURNETT: Leander, what about some of the challenges that he went through, because there were times when you know the Mac was cool, but then all of a sudden, obviously Apple within through a period where the company struggled, and then, all of a sudden, he came back and made it into the defining company that it is right now?

KAHNEY: Yes, what's strange about his career is that he was dismissed as a failure for most of it.


KAHNEY: It was only in the last few years that he really got credit, you know, for his successes. For most of his career, especially away from Apple, for the first time, that the next years, you know, people said he was a slick marketer and he was just a salesman and a fast talker but he didn't have technology chops.

During that time, he was sort of laying the foundation for his latest success, and people give him the credit for co-founding Apple. But, you know, not gotten much of the credit sort of being a hardware genius.

But, you know, looking back on it hindsight is only 20/20, but he's had an incredible career and an incredible vision, you know, which goes back to the beginning when he was a 19-year-old in the garage and Apple. And he went on to make ease of the use technology for consumers and he's been doing that for the last 30 years.

BURNETT: And, Leander, I just want to let everyone know what you're looking at the last video that we have of Steve Jobs when he was presenting the latest iPhone. There you have that video. Obviously, he was very ill.

But, Leander, you mentioned something that it seems worth bringing out more, which is that he did things his way. He was unafraid of people saying that he was a jerk or unafraid of saying, I'm going to design my software this way, it's not going to work with other software, and he ended up being right.

KAHNEY: (INAUDIBLE) the big hallmark of his career was that he had that great instinct and he didn't listen to critics. Especially in the tech industry which is full of, you know, engineers who think what they have to do is load on more features. But for him, a great product was one that really cut back on features, very simple, easy to use. (INAUDIBLE) is a good example. And they took Apple. And Steve Jobs took criticism for years for that. That was sort of the big part of the magic. And that's why his products have been so influential.

BURNETT: I want to bring Martin Lindstrom, author of "BrandWashed," into the conversation. But, first, I want to share the statement that we just received from Apple.

And Apple says, quote, "Apple has lost a visionary and creative genius and the world has lost an amazing human being. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to know and work with Steve have lost a dear friend and an inspiring mentor. Steve leaves behind a company that only he could have and his spirit will be forever the foundation of Apple."

Martin, what's your -- what's your reaction here to the legacy of Steve Jobs?

MARTIN LINDSTROM, AUTHOR, "BRANDWASHED" (via telephone): Well, first of all, of course, incredibly sad about the news. But I think if you take a look at it from a business point of view, I actually think for a while, we're going to see something unusual happen with the brand. That is we're going to see people will start to support the brand even more. We most likely will see that sales will go up dramatically right now.

And the reason why I'm saying that is because we've seen that in so many other cases where founders, musicians, very popular public figures, has passed away, that the sales is going up. So for a short period of time, we will see that people will almost support him indirectly by buying more of the Apple equipment.

And then over time, what will happen is the big question mark, because you do represent a religion. And we do know today when the religious leader is gone, there needs to be something else driving that vision for the company. So, that's going to be very interesting, what will happen.

BURNETT: And people -- it's interesting, we've talked about that, you know, over the years that there is, it's an amazing product, but there was a cult in the best of ways. There was a religion around him and his vision.

Sanjay Gupta's just pulling up something that is so worth mentioning. I mean, Apple is the second most valuable company in America.

GUPTA: And it had more cash reserves than the U.S. Treasury and even surpassed ExxonMobil as the world's most valuable company. And that was this year. The products you mentioned, surprised you're seeing them all over, like you were in your travels -- 275 million iPods, 100 million iPhones, 25 million iPads sold worldwide. It's remarkable.

BURNETT: It is. Martin, I mean, when you think about it -- and I know it's hard to do this off the cuff, but I mean, there may be no one who has had more of an influence in such a short period of time in changing how we all live our lives and the tools that we deem essential for daily life.

LINDSTROM: You're absolutely right. What I find fascinating is that some of the work I've done over the years, in order to understand, Apple's influence on us as consumers, has shown incredible strong parallel between religion and Apple. In fact, we were testing the other brands in parallel with another very powerful brand, and time after time, the parallel between strong religious believers -- for example, believing in the faith of Christianity -- had almost the same brain reaction as people which really were hardcore fans of Apple.

So, what we can do is look at what is going to happen when Steve Jobs now is gone. And I think one of the things we will see happen, that movement, which really is the reason why Apple is so big, that movement will probably be stronger, because they feel it's their legacy to really continue the spirit of the brand. So I think we will see something very unusual happen, probably some people never seen in the history of brands before.

BURNETT: Interesting, in just the past few minutes, Sanjay, we have 457 related articles to this story, just to show what's happening.

I wanted to ask you something -- when I'm just looking here at the time line of Steve Jobs, some -- two years ago -- three years ago, a new service accidentally published an obituary for Steve Jobs in August of 2008.

GUPTA: I remember that, yes.

BURNETT: I mean, he really fought.

SANJAY: He did. And, remember, after that, is when he had this liver transplant. And he -- really, nobody knew about this. We certainly keep on top of what's happening with him at any given time. He had this liver transplant. We found out about it after the fact. And that was -- ended up taking place in Memphis.

But then, as you mentioned, he did sort of recover from that and, you know, came back and was leading the company for a while. I thought it was interesting as well, Erin, maybe you knew about this, but there's an authorized biography coming out of Steve Jobs. It's actually Walter Isaacson's writing it, who used to work here at CNN.


GUPTA: But Steve Jobs cooperated fully with this biography. And the reason I think it's relevant because a lot of people said he would never do that unless he was becoming very mindful of his legacy, mindful of the fact that maybe he was quite sick and his days were numbered. That's scheduled to come out in November. So, certainly something on his mind. We know that obviously from him stepping down from the company. But I think he'd been thinking about this for some time.

BURNETT: So -- and when you talk about Walter's book, that was originally scheduled not to come out until next spring, right?

GUPTA: Right, exactly.

BURNETT: I mean, the whole date was moved up.

GUPTA: They advanced it. And I think, in part, you can sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together now. Certainly in August, when he did officially step down and say that day has come. You remember that.

I remember, it was so poignant to say, I told people that if it ever came to the point where I could no longer run this company, I would step aside, that day has come.

I think since then you saw a lot of things fast forward, including the publication of this book.

BURNETT: Yes. It's a fair point.

Well, Dan Simon, our correspondent from San Francisco, joins us live.

Dan, obviously, you covered Apple announcements. The Moscone Center, the carnival and warship, every time there was a presentation by Mr. Jobs.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, obviously, we're talking about somebody -- he'll never be replaced. I mean, you think about where he came from. He was adopted. Grew up -- his parents were working class parents.

He was a college dropout. Went to Reed College just for a semester, then dropped out to pursue his passion for electronics. He started Apple with his longtime friend Steve Wozniak out of his garage.

And you think about what he accomplished. I mean, it's one thing to really create a technology that has an impact on so many people's lives. It's another thing to do it time and time again if you just sort of rattle off his successes. Basically, invented the personal computer with the Apple 2. Then all those years later, redefined the music industry with the iPod. And then totally changed the cellular phone industry with the iPhone. And then most recently with the iPad.

I think that's what he'll be remembered for, not just, you know, sort of hitting it out of the ballpark once, but doing it time and time again. He leaves a legacy that will probably never be matched.

BURNETT: And, Dan, in terms of what happens next, and I know everyone asks this question. Tim Cook, obviously, has run this company very well. Steve Jobs was a big proponent of his.

But does this affect the creativity, beauty, the function, of what comes out of Apple?

SIMON: Well, Apple is now a very well-oiled machine with Tim Cook. I think what you may miss in the future is the visionary. You know, Steve Jobs had the ability, the rare ability to understand what consumers wanted before consumers realized what they wanted.

He could sort of say, you know what, I think this is what people will respond to. The question is whether somebody can fill those shoes and really be able to gauge public interest before the products reach the marketplace. He's got a culture there that seems to have viewed that concept or seems to have gravitated towards it.

But I think we'll have a better sense in a couple of years. They obviously have a lot of products in the pipeline that they've been working on for some time. The question is: what happens a few years from now? What's going to be the next iPhone? Who's going to be able to discover that? And that's something we really don't know.

BURNETT: And, Martin, a final comment from you. Dan raising a great point, which is, you know, everyone sort of made fun of the iPad before, and a lot of people said, who's going to want -- you know, like basically a laptop -- that's smaller than a laptop that's touch. Can you imagine, we used to say that, right? But he did anticipate what people wanted before they wanted it.

LINDSTROM: He followed his instinct. And he was the only one I'm aware of a business leader which never did any tests. He was never doing any focus groups. He's never testing his products. And he just followed intuition.

I think that's really what makes him stand apart. Everyone else and major companies today are so afraid of making a risk, taking a risk. He did not care about that. He's just followed his instincts and release it and basically hope for the best.

Because he had such a huge follower, I also think it created a self-fulfilling prophesy, that when he said it's going to be a success, it becomes a success because of that.

BURNETT: OK. All right. Well, Martin, thank you so much. We appreciate your taking the time.

Dan, of course, will continue here on CNN.

Thanks for watching OUTFRONT.

Let's hand it off now to "A.C. 360" for more on the death of Steve Jobs.