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Nancy Grace
Murray`s Fingerprint Found on Propofol Bottle
Aired October 06, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the sudden death of music icon Michael Jackson. We are live here in L.A., where the Jackson`s live- in Caribbean doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, on trial for manslaughter, accused of shooting Jackson up with a super-powerful surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving the superstar to die surrounded by his own urine.
Four of the married doctor`s mistresses become star witnesses, when Jackson`s voice from beyond the grave emerges, secretly recorded by his own doctor, who then feeds Jackson deadly drugs, secret stashes of drugs hidden by the doctor all over Jackson`s mansion.
Bombshell tonight. Fingerprints emerge as damning evidence -- oh, no, not Michael Jackson`s prints, but Dr. Conrad Murray`s left index print found on the propofol bottle pumped into Jackson`s leg. As the bloody shirt emerges in this investigation, the defense slams the state`s CSI. Then another blow. The oxygen tank beside Jackson`s bed, in case of emergency, is empty. Hey, thanks, Doc!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The king of pop, Mr. Michael Jackson!
MICHAEL JACKSON: My performances will be up there helping my children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Jackson death trial, we are in day eight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you agree with me that you made a substantial number of mistakes in your investigation?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense attorney Ed Chernoff is trying to take her apart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t keep your notes. That`s bad investigation. That`s bad investigative work. Do you agree?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
JACKSON: I hurt, you know? I hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Murray comes down the stairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s pumping. He`s pumping his chest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was screaming, Hurry, go get Prince.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But he`s not responding to anything.
JACKSON: I am asleep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Fingerprints emerge as damning evidence. Oh, no, not Michael Jackson`s fingerprints, but Dr. Conrad Murray`s left index print found on a propofol bottle, the propofol bottle that was pumped into Jackson`s leg. Then another blow. The oxygen tank beside Jackson`s bed in case of an emergency, empty. Hey, thanks, Doc!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We detected propofol, lorazepam, lidocaine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He never mentioned propofol to you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Extraordinary dangerous, leading (ph) in (ph) respiratory depression, possibly respiratory arrest and death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Total number of propofol vials that were sold and shipped to Conrad Murray, 255.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lorazepam, midazolam, lidocaine...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cost Michael Jackson his life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a gentleman here that needs help. And he`s not breathing.
911 OPERATOR: Did anybody witness what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, just the doctor, sir. The doctor`s been the only one here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... when he arrived was that he was clinically dead. The resuscitation efforts would likely be futile.
JACKSON: I am asleep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time of death is 12:57.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A., camped outside the county courthouse, where a man is on trial in the death, the manslaughter, of the king of pop, his Caribbean live-in doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, FYI making $150,000 a month -- 150 grand a month! -- now on trial for shooting Jackson up with a powerful surgical anesthetic, propofol, then leaving him to die surrounded by his own urine.
The court blows up today with the evidence, the damning evidence of one single fingerprint. Where? On a propofol bottle. Not a propofol bottle, the propofol bottle pumped into Michael Jackson`s leg, the deadly dose of propofol. Propofol found in every major organ in Michael Jackson`s body -- his stomach, his pancreas, his spleen, his liver, the gel behind his eye, the blood in his heart. He was swimming in propofol!
Straight out to Jean Casarez, correspondent, "In Session," joining me right now at the courthouse. Jean, what happened in court today?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": This was the most important bottle of propofol in that courtroom, Nancy. It is the bottle of propofol that has the fingerprint of Conrad Murray that prosecutors say was inside a cut saline bag we believe to form a drip of propofol into Michael Jackson`s body. But the defense said, Wait a minute. There is no propofol that you found in any saline bag which would form a drip. It just didn`t happen.
GRACE: OK, and here is the problem. To Alexis Tereszcuk, Radaronline.com. Here`s the problem. Everybody on earth, practically, unless they`ve been living under a rock in a deep, dark cave, has seen or heard about CSI, crime scene investigation. The defense slams back today, attacking one of the crime scene techs because she didn`t take a picture of the propofol in the saline bag that was the drip.
Now, everybody can describe it, everybody that came into that room. Maybe another photo will emerge. But that`s a problem. If I`m on the jury and they take pictures of everything else, why don`t I have a picture of that, Alexis? What happened?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: Well, she said she thought it was fine (ph) just next to it. She said it just makes sense. The propofol bottle is in the bag. That`s where it belongs. She`s done her job a million times. She knows exactly the right way to do things. If she didn`t have the picture of the propofol separately, you wouldn`t be able to see it. This is what they wanted to do. Defense is trying to disarm her. They`re trying to make her seem like she`s incompetent. But she`s not. She definitely covered all of her bases.
GRACE: Alexis, I didn`t ask you was she incompetent. Clearly, she`s not incompetent. But the defense now has an inroad. That`s what I`m saying. I have no reason to doubt this crime scene tech. Absolutely none. There were several people on the scene. Nobody tampered with this evidence.
But what I am saying to you is this, Alexis -- O.J. Simpson! You put it in the jury`s head that somehow, the police or the crime scene techs have tampered with the scene, and you have a potentially explosive situation. You`re looking at a mistrial. You`re looking at a not guilty verdict if they think police or crime scene techs tampered with the scene.
Back to Jean Casarez, in court the entire day. Tell me about the bottle of propofol. I want to hear about Dr. Conrad Murray`s left index finger on that bottle.
CASAREZ: That was the only thing that had a fingerprint. Nancy, there were saline bags. There were four prints, but none were identifiable. So maybe it was contaminated. Maybe his prints were on that, but nothing was discernible. You had all the pill bottles. You had all the vials. Michael Jackson`s prints not on anything. But only one print. It was that bottle of propofol, and it was Conrad Murray`s.
GRACE: A lot happening in court today. We are all taking your calls live. Out to Claudia in Louisiana. Hi, Claudia. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. And before I say anything, congratulations on making it to week four with "Dancing With the Stars."
GRACE: Oh, Claudia, Claudia, my head is spinning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re doing fabulous!
GRACE: Have you ever heard of a paso doble? I have not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: It`s a dance about a bull fighter and a bull. I just can`t tell you any more except watch and pray on Monday night. Now, what about Jackson?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy, I have 20 years in the dental field as a dental assistant. We used nitrous oxide, better known as laughing gas. I was never allowed, nor was anyone else allowed, to leave a patient unattended under nitrous oxide. And another thing...
GRACE: Absolutely not. So your point is that by leaving him alone, just by leaving him alone and going into the other room to yak with one of his four mistresses on the cell phone, that alone proves what to you? Does it prove negligence, or does it prove involuntary manslaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Negligence. To me, involuntary manslaughter. He killed the man!
GRACE: Tell it, Claudia!
Unleash the lawyers. Joining me tonight, Bill Sheaffer, former prosecutor, WFTV legal analyst, Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex," Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta.
First to you, Bill Sheaffer. Weigh in.
BILL SHEAFFER, WFTV LEGAL ANALYST: Let me tell you something. You raise a good point, and that`s that CSI factor. And I think the prosecution has to worry a little bit now because this is a very talented defense team and they will exploit this slip in the state`s case. But you know, there`s a lot of evidence that points to his gross negligence. I think they`re going to be OK.
GRACE: OK, everybody, buckle your seatbelt. OK, Rockwell. Hit me.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You said it. The judge said it. Say it again. Gross negligence. That`s what you talk about, Nancy, when you have a lawsuit, when you`re suing for money. This is not a homicide. And things will develop. How do you get propofol inside of the contents of your stomach? Are you saying that maybe the doctor put it in Michael Jackson`s mouth, or did Michael do it?
GRACE: OK. To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist, joining us tonight out of Denver. Dr. Arnall, I`m sure that you, like I, like me, have read the autopsy report in depth. And when you look at this thing, there is propofol in every major organ. However, we learn today why propofol would appear in his stomach without him actually ingesting it by mouth. Could you explain?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: The propofol circulates through the blood. As you know, things that you put into your stomach diffuse into the blood. There`s no reason that something in the blood could not diffuse into the stomach.
GRACE: We are live outside the courthouse here in L.A., Michael Jackson`s live-in Caribbean doctor on trial for manslaughter in the death of the king of pop. Today, torpedo to the defense. Dr. Conrad Murray`s left index fingerprint appears on the deadly dose of propofol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 100 milliliter propofol vial had one left index fingerprint. This left index fingerprint was matched to defendant Conrad Murray.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... did unlawfully and without malice kill Michael Joseph Jackson.
JACKSON: I hurt, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s pumping. He`s pumping the chest, but he`s not responding to anything.
JACKSON: I hurt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Emergency response was on the scene immediately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to call it here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: However, it was too late.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I hooked up the EKG, it was flat lined.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have done all I could do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This defense attorney attacking this woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You agree with me there`s no milky fluid in this IV bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From this photo, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this defense tactic worked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shades of the O.J. Simpson case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the bag is not milky, my client is not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you show us where you said that you found a propofol bottle in an IV bag?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You know what? They can make all the rhymes they want to. Today in court, damning evidence by the prosecution against the defense, live-in Caribbean doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray`s, fingerprint, left index, emerged on the deadly bottle of propofol, the particular bottle that was used to pump Jackson up through the leg, full of a deadly dose of the powerful anesthetic.
We are taking your calls. I want to go to special guest Ian Halperin, author of "Unmasked: The Final Years of Michael Jackson," director of "Gone Too Soon." Weigh in, Ian. What do you make of what you`re hearing in court?
IAN HALPERIN, AUTHOR, "UNMASKED": Well, it was a circus in the courtroom today, Nancy. And let me tell you something, Nancy. And great performance on "Dancing With the Stars."
But you may have let off a bit of butt wind the other night in the ballroom of "Dancing With the Stars," today was a butt tornado in that courtroom. In this case, the defense is opening it up, a la Johnnie Cochran, they are pointing loopholes again in the L.A. police investigation. The coroner was just grilled, the coroner`s representative today.
And I`m telling you right now, my sources in Murray`s camp have told me Chernoff has a lot up his sleeve in the next few days, Nancy. And this is going to get ugly because Murray, as we all know, is guilty. There are other doctors equally as guilty out there.
I disagree with you on one thing, Nancy. The fact that his fingerprint was fund on the propofol bottle -- we all know he was handling all the bottles. I`m more interested in those saline IV bags to know who the mysterious fingerprints was. And I think we`ve got to get to the bottom of that. And once again, this case has been botched. It`s become a farce again. A celebrity case in L.A. is becoming a nightmare a la O.J.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez. In the courtroom today, we heard extremely powerful evidence. What else happened in court beside the fingerprint emerging?
CASAREZ: Well, the propofol. I think one of the headlines is propofol, Nancy, was throughout his entire body. It was in his heart blood. It was the blood taken at the hospital. It was in his femoral blood, which is his leg. It was in his stomach. It was in his liver. It was even, Nancy, in the fluid in his eyeball.
But the defense brought out that it was all at different levels in his body. And that what that means, according to the defense, is it couldn`t have been a drip because if it dripped into his body, it would be at the same level throughout his body. So they`re trying to go for another way that propofol got in there.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers -- Bill Sheaffer, Judge Alex Ferrer, Peter Odom and Renee Rockwell.
Judge, what do you make of the fingerprint?
ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUST ALEX": I tend to agree that the single fingerprint of Dr. Conrad Murray is not significant. It`s more significant that Michael Jackson`s fingerprint was not on the bottle because if it had been on the bottle, that would give the defense argument that he self- administered some legs, not that it couldn`t have gotten on there a different way, just simply picking up the bottle, but it certainly would have (INAUDIBLE) that argument.
To me, the more powerful evidence is, why are there 12 bottles of propofol in the room? If he`s only giving him 25 milliliters, like he claims, why does he need this menagerie of bottles in the room? And the fact that there were all these other drug bottles from all these other doctors takes the wind out of the argument that the defense made in opening, that didn`t know there were other doctors prescribing.
GRACE: What about it, Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t understand, Nancy, why if there were three different doctors represented by that, you know, what the prosecution called a mountain of medication that they put on the table, why do we only have one person in the defense seat here? There are at least two other people that should be called to task for what happened here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I`m going to do that for them. And that will be remembered more than my performances.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you giving the guy more propofol, that`s what he`s sounding (ph) (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you just can`t get over this picture.
JACKSON: As you may already know...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Room full of prescriptions that you would see in some sort of clinic or hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the floor.
JACKSON: Dependency on...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Left side of the bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Near (ph) drugstore.
JACKSON: Pain medication.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right there in his bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it fair to say that he had the physical characteristics of someone who had been a drug addict for a long time?
JACKSON: Medication was initially prescribed to soothe the excruciating pain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He certainly was not addicted to any drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a pharmacy in the Jackson home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A., taking your calls. On trial in an L.A. courtroom, a man charged with the voluntary manslaughter -- the involuntary manslaughter of Michael Jackson.
Out to the lines. Gloria in Alabama. Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you, on the dance floor and off. I`m confused...
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you. I need the love and the prayers come Monday night. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got it. I`ve got a problem. I`m confused by the propofol bottle in the IV bag. Is that what they`re actually trying to say? Because I`m a little familiar with IV infusions, and they would just put an IV push if they were adding more propofol to the saline bag. I`m just confused by that.
GRACE: OK, let`s go through it because I think it was jerry-rigged, Gloria. I`m going to go first to Jean Casarez to explain what we heard in court, then to Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist, to explain to us what it all means.
Jean, what was the testimony in court the way this thing was jerry- rigged?
CASAREZ: What we`ve heard in court is that the saline bag was cut, and inside the saline bag was the propofol bottle turned upside down, you could say. And it was sort of at an angle, and the propofol was sort of leaking out and it was in the bag. That`s what Jackson`s inner circle testified. We learned today that there was an IV set-up in that room that did have propofol in it, actually two IV set-ups that had propofol in it, but not in the saline bag.
GRACE: OK. To Dr. Michael Arnall, how should it have been set up, this propofol drip?
ARNALL: Well, your caller is correct. And one of the prosecution exhibits demonstrates precisely the set-up that your caller has described, with a needle and syringe in one of the ports on the tubing from the bag into the body. I suppose what they`re alleging is that somehow, there was propofol being poured in the bag, but that could have been diluted with additional saline.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pointed towards the IV stand and he said, Now grab that bag and put that in the blue bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you provide me with the total number of propofol vials that were sold and shipped to Conrad Murray, 255?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long was he out in that room?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said just a couple of minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you`re going to put him under for a long time -
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You put on that condom catheter. Then he can have propofol for a night`s sleep.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Only out of the room for a few minutes. That`s a lot of nonsense. He left him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I needed to go to the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a lot of nonsense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conrad Murray was on the phone for about 45 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To get chat up his mistress on a cell phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the, he didn`t say anything, he just paused. I said, hello, hello, are you there? Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s why he`s dead.
(END VIEOTAPE)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A. We are all taking your calls. What a day in the courtroom today. The man accused in the death of Michael Jackson, on trial, damning evidence today.
His fingerprint, Doctor Conrad Murray`s shows up on the single bottle of propofol used to be pumped into Jackson`s knee, just below the knee. More issues come up in court today. But I want to go very quickly to Elliott Jostad.
Elliot, explain to me how it had been set up by Conrad Murray, how he had the propofol bottles stuck in that saline bag.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE`S PRODUCER: Right. Well prosecutors say he had this kind of makeshift system that he was using to give the propofol to Murray. And one of the bodyguards testified about this. He actually saw it as did this coroner investigator. It was a saline bag that had a slit in it. A bottle of propofol was stuck inside upside down so that the neck of the bottle could drip down into the saline bag through tubing and then we assume into an injection port somewhere in Jackson`s body.
GRACE: So was the propofol mixed with saline or is it just in the bag?
JOSTAD: Well that is what is not clear. The witness, Alberto Alvarez, one of the secure the guards, said he saw a little bit of a milky fluid sort of towards the bottom of the bag, towards the nozzle of the bag where it would go down into the tubing. But this coroner investigator was challenged on that today. She said, she was pointing out in the picture she took, showed clear droplets in the bag. So they were trying to say not propofol in that bag.
GRACE: And to pull up the phoenix Pd, Paul, thank you for joining us, regarding the other prints found on other objects, it`s very difficult when more than one person handles for instance a saline bag or other object, the prints become smeared. How many points of identification do you have to have to match up? See, my latent print which would be the print on the propofol, to my known print, how many points of match do you have to have to match that up to my finger?
PAUL PENZONE, FORMER SERGEANT,PHOENIX PD, CHILD ADVOCATE: I apologize Nancy, I don`t know the exact amount. But you`re right. A latent print -
GRACE: Specifically ten.
PENZONE: I appreciate that. What people don`t understand, the misconception, you see TV, you think these are easy to recover and they`re not. They are extremely difficult. Conditions as well as surface play in the ability to remove prints left behind. But you can use several processes to do that. But prints do two things. They not only identify information for you or evidence but they eliminate other options.
GRACE: What do you mean by that?
PENZONE: Well, what I`m saying is that you want to make sure you check all of the evidence to be able to remove the possibility that Michael may have handled those. Now, the absence of the print doesn`t mean he didn`t but you want to do be able to answer it that question. So to eliminate possibilities if there is another finger print up there of another individual, then you know that there is someone else to speak to about it and they are identifiable.
GRACE: Out to the lines, to Leah in Maryland. Hi, Leah, what`s your question, dear?
LEAH, CALLER, MARYLAND: Hi, congratulations on "Dancing with the Stars." I think you are awesome, awesome, awesome. I wish would you show more leg. I`m a dancer myself. I know legs get it, OK? But you are doing an awesome job. We are all rooting for you.
GRACE: I want to remind that you every penny I make it is going to the national center for missing and exploiting children.
LEAH: That`s awesome.
GRACE: I think this week some legs may be shown. What is the question about MJ?
LEAH: OK. This is my question. Everybody is talking about the slurred speech and the slurred thing that Conrad Murray actually recorded and listened and talked. But as a doctor, when you hear your patient like that, what did he do? He didn`t do anything. I mean, wouldn`t you have gone over to the house to see if he was OK? Or called someone, or whatever? But he didn`t do that. Because he knew what Michael, he knew what he gave Michael. He knew what Michael was on. That makes no sense. I mean, we all have family members. If you call, if you talk to someone in your family and they were slurring like that, you would be calling all family members. Hey, what`s going on? You know, what is wrong with this person. He did nothing.
GRACE: Good question. Out to Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst, author of "Deal Breakers". Weigh in, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR, DEAL BREAKERS: Leah brings an excellent point to the table because what Conrad Murray lacks was basic empathy toward his patient. How could you see someone intoxicated and not have concern? Maybe even love, sometimes doctors have love for their patients. But this is the analogous to the baby-sitter who waits until the mom to goes to work and then starts to beat the baby, or the day care worker abuses the Alzheimer patient because other people are not around to watch.
Conrad Murray waited until his patient was in a vulnerable state the he taped him. He talked on the phone to his mistresses. It speaks to me Nancy, an actual malice, resentment, envy. Maybe even hatefulness towards to his own patient. I`m sure Michael Jackson on some level was a difficult patient no like and to treat. He probably evoked enormous conflict feelings for the doctor but the doctor instead of getting a hold of himself and talking to a colleague, having peer to peer review, case consultation, reaching out for help, instead retreat need his own envious resentful angry state of mind. And he acted it out towards the patient. I don`t see this as just neglect. I see this as malice towards the patient.
GRACE: You know, another issue came up in court today, Jean Casarez, part of the entire defense seems to blame another doctor, Doctor Klein, for allegedly getting Michael Jackson hooked on Demerol but what did we learn about the presence of Demerol in Michael Jackson`s system.
JEAN CASAREZ, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: There is no Demerol in his system at all. Period. Zero. None. And so, now maybe we understand why Doctor Arnold Klein cannot testify, although the medical records of Doctor Arnold Klein can come in. But the defense said he was receiving Demerol from Doctor Klein almost until he died.
GRACE: You know, Ellie, let`s go through what all was in Jackson`s system. Because we`ve got all of the clinical names but I need to you translate those for me to the street names. What are they?
JOSTAD: OK. Well obviously we got the propofol which is also calls Diprovan, that`s a brand name. Not something abused on the street obviously. You also have lorazepam which is ativan, an anti-anxiety medication. You also have midazolam, sold as Versed. That is also an anxiety medication. You have diazepam which people know as valium, a very common popular drug used for anxiety, muscle spasm, things like that. Then you`ve also got Lidocaine, which is a drug they use to numb pain at an injection site, also can be used with propofol to so it doesn`t burn when it is being injected. And you have also the ephedrine, which I have heard experts explain, which is something given by paramedics in an attempt to revive Jackson.
GRACE: You know, the reason I was asking, and making sure about all that Ellie, is because Doctor Michael Arnall, I was looking at the autopsy report and making a lot of notes and I know that ephedrine is in his system. Now, ephedrine is what?
DOCTOR MICHAEL ARNALL M.D., BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes. It could be an over-the-counter medication he was taking for you know, runny nose or drippy nose, a cold. Or it could have been given by the paramedics.
GRACE: Is it a stimulant?
ARNALL: Yes. It is a stimulant.
GRACE: OK. I also noticed in the autopsy report that there is epinephrine and atropine. What is that? Would that be the same thing?
ARNALL: No, those were almost assuredly the attempted life-saving medications that the paramedics gave to him when they tried to save his life. It is very common to give those drugs in an attempt to save a person`s life.
GRACE: Right. OK. I want to go back to Ellie Jostad. Is the state now alleging that when Conrad Murray sees Michael Jackson is dead, he tries to shoot him up with a stimulant it reversed the propofol?
JOSTAD: Well Nancy, there is another drug. We just heard about this today called flumazinel, and the toxicologist that testified for the state today, explained that that is a drug that acts as an antidote to benzodiazapine which would include the lorazepam and diazepam, two powerful sedative that were in Jackson`s system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ACTOR: When people leave my show, I want them to say, I`ve never seen nothing like this in my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Powerful drugs found hidden all over Jackson`s mansion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like a drugstore and this is in Michael Jackson`s room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is great to be home. It`s a wonderful feeling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He pointed towards the IV stand. He said now grab that bag.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What color is the fluid that is in the cut IV bag?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here in L.A., camped out site the county courthouse bringing you the latest for the trial of the man accused in manslaughter of Michael Jackson. We are taking your calls. Another bomb shell in court today. The oxygen tank positioned by Michael Jackson`s dead, there in case of emergency, completely empty. When did that come out, Jean? And who told the jury about it?
CASAREZ: You know Nancy that is something that the jury is going to learn. It is in all of the police reports. We have known about it for a while. But at this point, that jury doesn`t know it.
GRACE: But we know about it. Something doesn`t seem right about that Jean, that we know things the jury doesn`t know. How did we learn about the empty oxygen tank? I`m going to Alexis Tereszcuk on that. What about it, Alexis?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, SENIOR REPORTER, RADARONLINE.COM: We actually learned that it existed, that it was empty. The thing about that that is so strange, first of all you are not supposed to have propofol administered at home. But if you do and it is outside the hospital, you have to have an oxygen tank with oxygen in it to treat your patient. So, there was none of that there. So, who knows how long it`s been empty. Michael Jackson may have needed the oxygen and Doctor Murray didn`t have it there for him. It is just another terrible tragedy in the situation. He did not do what he was supposed to do in any step of the way.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Bill Sheaffer, Judge Alex Ferrer, Peter Odom, Renee Rockwell. Bill Sheaffer, what do you say to lawyers that insist that this is a simply a case of civil negligence?
BILL SHEAFFER, FORMER PROSECUTOR, LEGAL ANALYST, WFTV: No way. This is such gross negligence that it rises to the level of criminal liability. And I want to say something. All of the prosecution needs to do is go back to the basic. Who was in charge and responsible for Michael Jackson? Doctor Murray. Who administered the fatal drug? Doctor Murray. Who was irresponsible and did not revive Michael Jackson and was distracted during that period of time? Doctor Murray. Never mind the fingerprints and the bags or the lack of fingerprints. That is what is damning to Murray. And that`s what should lead to his conviction, if they can keep the jury focused on that thought.
GRACE: To judge Alex Ferrer, host of Judge Alex. Judge, this is what I don`t understand. To me, the case should have been charged as murder one because this syringe and this bottle of propofol, in my mind, is the same as pointing a gun to his head and pulling the trigger. You shoot a man up with propofol and leave him unattended?
You know, who knows how long Jackson had been dead when Conrad Murray goes back in there and finds him. We know lucidity have already set in his blood was starting to settle on his back side, the back of his legs and rear and back of his head. Who knows how long he had been laying there dead. How can anyone say this is a case of simple negligence? It should be murder one, judge.
ALEX FERRER, HOST, JUDGE ALEX: No, I disagree with you Nancy. Because murder one requires an intent to kill. This is exactly they should have charged with.
GRACE: Oh, no, no, no. Murder one.
FERRER: Let me hear your version.
GRACE: Murder one requires the specific intent to do the act.
FERRER: No, I disagree with you.
GRACE: It does not require the specific intent it kill.
FERRER: I respectfully disagree with you. The specific intent to do the act gets you to manslaughter. You don`t have to intend that person die. You just have to intend to do the act that resulted in it because manslaughter is not a specific intent crime. It is basic intent crime.
When you get into murder, you need to show malice. You need to show evil intent. And you don`t have that in this case. It is unfortunate that every time somebody dies you don`t have the appropriate penalty in every circumstance. Think of it like a DUI. The person of DUI is not guilty of murder even though they killed somebody. They are guilty of manslaughter DUI manslaughter, vehicular homicide, a lower level because they did not have the level of criminal intent. And that`s the way he is charged the way he is.
GRACE: To Bill Sheaffer, explain something to me, Bill. For instance, if I take a gun and I raise it to your head and I pull the trigger, and then I say, I didn`t mean to kill you. I meant to scare you. It was an accident. Isn`t it true, Bill Sheaffer, that the intent necessary is the intent to do the act? And that the law presumes you intend the natural consequences of your act?
SHEAFFER: I am going to have to agree with you and disagree with the good judge on that point. I think that there is ample evidence that this behavior - well, be that as it may, it is my analogy. But I`m telling you that his acts rise to the level that he could have been held criminally responsible for a greater criminal offense than manslaughter, perhaps second degree murder. But I think there is an argument to be made that he is responsible for the consequences of his acts.
GRACE: Weigh in Renee Rockwell.
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Is he responsible for the consequences potentially of Michael Jackson`s acts if Michael Jackson ingested the medicine? I don`t think they are going to be able to prove that that didn`t happen, Nancy.
GRACE: OK. Well, we already know that the syringe was in his leg, not his arm. We also note he was attached to a condom catheter. And Renee, I challenge you to show me a man that is going to inject his own catheter in his own penis. OK?
ROCKWELL: OK.
GRACE: So if you are saying another issue - I`m not through yet. I`m not through yet. And if Conrad Murray wasn`t the one injecting him, then why did he even need Conrad Murray? Why he even have Conrad Murray around?
ROCKWELL: How are you going to get past the propofol in his stomach? I am going to disagree with Doctor Arnall and say, that if blood gets into the stomach, if your stomach contents gets into your blood, maybe what`s in your blood will go into your stomach, no. Don`t try to tell that a jury because they are not going to buy that. Even though it might be true, they are not going to buy it.
GRACE: Well, as a matter of fact Renee, that came up in court. Jean Casarez, we learned today how propofol can get into your stomach without you ingesting it through your mouth. Explain.
CASAREZ: Well, when you die and your body has moved around, it can re-distribute itself throughout the entire body. That`s what the expert said.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Maria in Wisconsin. Hi Maria, what`s your question?
MARIA, CALLER, WISCONSIN: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. My question is, you know, the coronary investigator taking the pictures of Michael`s room today was given a hard time by the defense lawyer, and nothing in that room was the same when Michael died. That minute, everything switched. Everything went haywire there. The doctor had everybody begging and hiding things. Then he goes back to the room himself to do whatever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 11:17 a.m., that`s after he has given Michael Jackson propofol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conrad Murray sent that to my IPhone. Does that accurately reflect that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You should be monitoring the patient. Do you have time to be typing out an e-mail?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The big issue is, was the propofol bottle in the IV bag or not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prevailing interpretation I think is that somewhere in that room there is an open saline bag with propofol in it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t remember standing to the left of me and I asked you what was in that IV bag?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t remember talking to you about that on that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the defense is doing, they really beat up upon the investigator. Why? Because she has an obligation to get it right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live in L.A., camped outside the courthouse, taking your calls. I didn`t get to Peter Odom. Peter, can you weigh in on the intent required in this case?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the judge is absolutely right. The prosecution, to prove first degree murder would have to show that Conrad Murray consciously said to himself I am going to kill Michael Jackson, and then killed him. Now, the reason that that is not what happened and you know that`s not what happened is because Conrad Murray was being paid $150,000 a month by Michael Jackson. There`s no way he was going to kill his meal ticket and you know that.
GRACE: OK. NO. Actually, can you please hand me the statute. Thank you. Actually, what the statute is, I am reading from the California statute, very familiar to the Georgia statute where you practice, so you may want to refresh yourself with the criminal code, is that you need to have the intent to do the act, not intent to kill. Now, to you, Bill Sheaffer, very quickly, can you explain in a nutshell what that means for the benefit of Peter Odom.
SHEAFFER: It means exactly what you said earlier. You pick up a gun and point it at someone and fire the shot. You intended the act, whether you intended to kill him. At this point, if he administered that drug and intended to administer that drug, he can be held liable.
GRACE: Everyone, we have to stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Miles Christian, 21, from Louisiana, killed Iraq. Awarded bronze star and Navy Marine achievement medal, on second tour, volunteered to return, even after losing hearing in one ear. Had a smile that lit up a room. Never met a stranger, loved craw fish, barbecue.
Leaves behind parents Ramona and Danny, Sisters Clarissa, and Laura. Miles Christian. What a handsome young man. American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you, and congratulations tonight to veteran lawyer Lisa Borden, taking a death penalty case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. Brilliant! A mother, wife of our show regular, Atlanta lawyer Raymond Giudice. Ray, you certainly married up. Way to go Lisa.
Everyone, see you tomorrow night. We will be camped outside the L.A. county courthouse in our own way seeking justice. I`ll see you tomorrow, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
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