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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Search for Baby Lisa in Missouri; Casey Anthony Wears Disguise for Deposition
Aired October 10, 2011 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, where is baby Lisa? A frantic search for a missing 10-month-old beautiful baby girl. Her parents claim baby Lisa was kidnapped from her own bedroom.
DEBORAH BRADLEY, LISA`S MOTHER: We need her home. I can`t be without her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: As cops furiously search landfills and a nearby creek, where is baby Lisa?
And is Casey Anthony losing it? She shows up at her Zanny the nanny depo in full disguise. We`ll have exclusive details from inside the room, including what she was wearing and how it has a connection to the baseball playoffs?
Plus, the shockers keep coming in the Michael Jackson death trial. The jury hears Dr. Murray describe in harrowing detail the chaotic scene as he finds Michael Jackson unresponsive.
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: I came back to his bedside, and he wasn`t breathing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Will the doctor be forced to take the stand to defend himself? We`re taking your calls.
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a 10-month-old that isn`t where she belongs, and we`re trying to find that child.
JEREMY IRWIN, FATHER OF MISSING BABY: We just -- we just want her back.
BRADLEY: We just want our baby back. Please bring her home.
IRWIN: The front door was unlocked. Most of the lights were on in the house and the window in the front was open.
BRADLEY: She`s everything. She`s our little girl. She`s completed our family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The disappearance of infants is a very rare event in America. When an infant does go missing, in most of the cases, suspicion falls upon members of the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A desperate race against time in Missouri to find an adorable missing 10-month-old girl. One week ago tonight was the last time anyone saw this precious baby, Lisa Irwin.
Good evening, everyone. I`m Jane Velez-Mitchell, coming to you live from Los Angeles. We`re going to tell you about the Conrad Murray-Michael Jackson death trial in a moment. But first, this very important story, because there is a child out there. This beautiful baby, we need to find her. And what happened to her, it`s right out of a horror movie.
Baby Lisa`s parents say she was stolen right out of her crib after her mother, Deborah Bradley, went to bed last Monday night, and before her father got home from working the night shift as an electrician. The dad, Jeremy Irwin, says when he got back to their home in Kansas City at about 4 a.m. -- yes, we`re talking the dead of night but early Tuesday morning -- the front door, he saw, was unlocked. And he also was shocked to see the flights throughout the house were blazing, and there was a window open.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: She`s everything. She`s our little girl. She`s completed our family and she`s -- she means everything to my boys and we -- we need her home. I can`t -- I can`t be without her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now that is an obviously grieving, shocked, hysterical mother who`s crying. She hopes her child will be found alive, but then in a shocking twist, just a couple of days into the investigation, Kansas City cops accuse baby Lisa`s parents, the missing child`s parents, of being uncooperative.
So last Friday morning the parents went on the morning talk shows to defend themselves and tell their side of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: When I first -- they first questioned me, Wednesday, I couldn`t fill in gaps. It turned into, "You did it." And they put the picture down from the table and they said, "Look at your baby. And do what`s right for her. And just tell everybody where she is so she can come home."
And I kept saying, "I don`t know, I don`t know, I don`t know."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hmm. That mother, Deborah Bradley, also said police told her she had failed a polygraph test. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRADLEY: They said that I failed, and I continued to say, "That`s not possible. Because I have -- I don`t know where she`s at. I did not do this."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But over this past weekend, everything changed. Kansas City police said they had resumed talking with baby Lisa`s parents. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They live here. It`s their child who knows more, you know. So talk to them. Something may jog their memory. You never know. They may think of another person, whatever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, all of that is great news. The most important question still remains: where is baby Lisa tonight?
Local cops and the FBI conducting extensive frantic searches. Still, no sign of 10-month-old Lisa. So what do you think happened in this case? We`re going to talk to a woman who knows this family well, but first, correspondent Ed Lavandera, live in Kansas City tonight.
Ed, what is going on with this investigation?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know really what`s interesting here and what`s overshadowed -- what has overshadowed is that the tension between the parents and the investigators here over the last couple of days. As far as we know, that appears to have been smoothed over, at least in terms of being face-to-face and investigators talking to parents.
But what we continue to see over the last several days has been rather interesting, Jane. The house that you see behind me, the green one, and it`s that window on the right edge of the home, that`s where -- been the focus of investigators. We`ve seen them repeatedly coming out over the last few days, some investigators bringing out metal detectors, walking through the front lawn. Also checking out a little creek area behind the house, spending a lot of time there over the last few days.
And then yesterday afternoon, in plain sight of reporters and neighbors, we saw the officers come out here, the investigators come back out to the house, and recreate what it would have been like for someone to get in through that window. What we saw was rather interesting. Because you saw these investigators climbing through the window. At one point the window slammed down on one of them. They needed some help to get through. Obviously, they wanted to check out the plausibility of the story line, if it was even possible for someone to get in through the house like that. And it was possible. But also very tough.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m looking at the window right now, Ed. This is no extraordinary window. And maybe the cop who tried to get through it is not as thin or as young or as agile as the person who broke in.
I want to go to captain Steve Young, Kansas City police captain.
Thank you for joining us sir. I know that, because you`re most interested in finding baby Lisa, far more than getting into a back and forth about the investigation, that you`re being relatively tight-lipped. But suffice it to say, are you now saying that now this family is cooperating again?
CAPTAIN STEVE YOUNG, KANSAS CITY POLICE (via phone): Yes, that`s correct. And you`re right. You know, we would really not look backwards. The important thing is that parents are involved in the investigation. and I`ve said it a bunch. Nobody knows more about what goes on and who`s been in that home than they do. So they`re -- they`re involved in this. The key is for them helping us find this child. That`s our No. 1 priority.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m watching an officer try to scale that little brick wall and get in through the window. And yes, it`s tough to get in through a window. Mark Eiglarsh, I don`t know if you can see this demonstration, but it`s certainly possible. I mean, we have seen so many children tragically kidnapped from their beds: Jessica Lunsford, Elizabeth Smart. The list goes on and on. It happens. Sickos do get in. And they do climb in through windows like that.
It`s not like there`s a moat around this house. It`s not like this window is very high up. Of course, yes, it`s easier if somebody gives you a lift. But there`s also -- I see there like a little pipe. It would have been very easy for someone to step on that pipe and hop in.
What do you make of this demonstration that authorities did to see how easy it is to get into this house? What does that tell you, Mark?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they`re considering the parents, I`m sure, persons of interest. Which statistically they have to do. If you look at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, over the past couple of decades, they`ve handled approximately 278 missing children`s cases. Only 13 involved abductions by burglars, as these parents are alleging. So statistically, it`s unlikely what they`re saying. It doesn`t mean it didn`t happen. So they have to explore the plausibility.
Now, I know that 300-pound overweight folks are usually not signing up to be home burglars. So typically, you have someone who is able to go into a window and remove a baby. And they just want to make sure that it`s plausible. I think they`re doing a good job so far, especially being tight-lipped on the investigation. That`s what they need to do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they`ve also, according to the mother herself, given her a polygraph. Now, this is what a family spokesperson had to say about baby Lisa`s mother, Deborah, being questioned and given a polygraph test by law enforcement. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL LERETTE, DEBORAH BRADLEY`S COUSIN: The police are doing their job, you know. If you don`t have any other suspects, the one person that was there that night, you know, the last person to see her, you know, who else do you point your finger at?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Very quickly, Captain Steven Young, will you confirm or deny that the mother was given a polygraph and failed?
YOUNG: Well, she of course, is free to talk about whatever she would like. But we`re not going to open the door to talking about the details of the investigation. So yes, I`m not going to get into that part of it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Captain.
Now, Kathy Ostander, you know baby Lisa`s father well. You join us by phone. You are related by marriage to baby Lisa`s father`s relative. What can you tell us about this family? They apparently have no criminal history. Are they -- are they good people?
KATHY OSTANDER, RELATIVE (via phone): They are good people. And they love their children. They did not do this. I don`t care what anybody says. These two people -- I was Jeremy Irwin`s -- his grandfather was married to me until he passed away. And these are good people. Good people. We need to pray for these people and pray that this baby is found quick.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A cousin who is acting as a spokesperson for the Irwin family talked about this breakdown that -- where the police accused the family of being uncooperative and then later backed away from it. Listen to what he had to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LERETTE: There`s just a lot of miscommunication, to be honest. That they were being interviewed again downtown. And after several hours, Jeremy -- Deborah was already gone, and Jeremy said, "I had enough for today." And as soon as they left was when they announced there was an impromptu press conference. They said, you know, were -- you know, the parents aren`t -- or the family is not cooperating any more. And that was -- that was that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So Kathy Ostander, again, you know this family. Why do you think the cops, aside from the fact that the mother is the last person to see, but they seem to be so intent on checking to see whether this story is realistic, that -- whether somebody can get in a window. It`s a ground-floor window. Of course somebody can get in, Kathy.
OSTANDER: Sure. Sure. Anybody could get in. And that`s a beautiful baby. And you know, there -- like you said, there are six people all over the world. And these two people did not do this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Does this father have any enemies, this Jeremy Irwin? He`s an electrician working the overnight shift. Did he have any lawsuits, any fights? Anything like that, Kathy, that you know of?
OSTANDER: Not that I know of, no. And...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How is their marriage? How is their marriage? Are they in good shape?
OSTANDER: You mean Jeremy?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, Jeremy and Deborah.
OSTANDER: They`re not married.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m sorry. They want to get married.
OSTANDER: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Their relationship as live-in parents of an infant.
OSTANDER: Well, from what I gather, quite well. They`ve got two very happy little boys at home, waiting for this baby to come home. And as far as I`ve heard, they get along beautifully.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well imagine, the horror of this woman not only having her baby stolen from her, but then she`s the subject of suspicion, even though she`s not being called a suspect. But this whole idea that they weren`t cooperating. They were interviewed for hours and became exhausted, and they said they wanted a break.
But we understand that the cops are doing what they have to do. They have to first eliminate the people who are closest to the child, the people who last saw the child. The mother is the last person to see the child. So she`s got to be put through this additional hell of being grilled and polygraphed and questions six ways to Sunday because they want to eliminate her so they can go after other people like sex offenders in the area.
I`m going to discuss this later on Nancy Grace. I`m filling in for Nancy. And we`re going to get in-depth into the search for baby Lisa, in just a little while, so stay right there.
Now up next here on ISSUES, Casey Anthony`s cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo deposition. You won`t believe the disguise that she was wearing. We`re taking your call. What do you think? 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Casey, settle down, sweetheart.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody is letting me speak. You want me to talk, then...
CINDY ANTHONY: All right, I will listen to you.
CASEY ANTHONY: Give me three seconds to say something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony apparently wore a wig and sunglasses while giving a deposition for a lawsuit against her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are her lawyers playing a very dangerous game with their client`s safety?
MATT MORGAN, ATTORNEY: Deep breathing, nostrils flaring.
CASEY ANTHONY: I take complete and full responsibility for my actions.
MORGAN: She did not want to be there. Clearly annoyed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the most part, Anthony refused to answer questions, pleading the fifth.
CASEY ANTHONY: I just wanted to let everyone know that I`m sorry for what I did. Sorry. Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee. Justice for Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Has Casey Anthony gone cuckoo? Her long-awaited deposition happened on Saturday. And she showed up in costume. Halloween came early for Casey Anthony. What the heck`s going on here? The deposition was for a civil case against Casey, filed by Zenaida Gonzalez, Zanny the nanny.
Now that Casey is stuck in Orlando for probation, she had to show up. Watch here as attorney Matt Morgan describes Casey`s demeanor during the deposition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Deep breathing, nostrils flaring. She did not want to be there. Clearly annoyed. But composed, courteous, not rude. And not looking at me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, she didn`t really show up. It was a video deposition. But on the videotape, she is in disguise, OK?
Now, let`s talk about her disguise a little bit. OK? Put your -- psychiatrist cap on. First, she wore what appeared to be a braided wig. Somehow she wanted to cover up her own hair.
On top of that she wore a Phillies baseball company, even though the Phillies got knocked out of the playoffs the night before. And to top it off, she wore big oversized sunglasses. So that`s what she looked like during the deposition. OK. So all of you people down there in Orlando, take a good look. If you see somebody walking around a local mall like this, it could very well be Casey Anthony. She probably has a lot of caps though. Let`s be real.
OK. What happened that deposition? Nothing. Casey pleaded the fifth on just about every question. So what is Casey trying to pull here? Call me: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Mark Eiglarsh, in Florida, what the heck is going on? Has Casey lost it? It`s a video deposition, so she`s not protecting her image going in and out of John Morgan`s office. We all know what she looks like. Why do you think she decided to disguise herself?
EIGLARSH: Well, first, let me pray for all those people who wear backwards Phillies caps and dreads and wear yellow glasses. Because now people are going to be running up to them and thinking that they`re Casey Anthony erroneously.
Why would Casey do this? Safety, maybe. Maybe because she`s the No. 1 most hated person in America, and if anyone somehow could reveal her true physical identity, they would try to kill her. I don`t think she`s cuckoo. I think she`d be cuckoo if she showed up like Paris Hilton does, as she leaves the L.A. County jail and strutted her stuff going into the deposition, showing what she looks like.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think she`s changed her hair color.
EIGLARSH: Maybe.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And she`s changed her look in a radical way, and she`s trying to keep her new look under wraps so that she can go out. But maybe she`s a blonde now. And so if she puts the fake wig on and we still see the dark hair, we`ll still be looking for a dark-haired Casey Anthony. That`s my theory. All right, we`re just getting started. Casey`s cuckoo depo on the other side.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Repeatedly she was taking -- or her attorney was invoking on her behalf, her Fifth Amendment right under the Constitution, which we believe, quite frankly, is not proper because, especially as it relates to the murder of her daughter.
We got enough, we feel, to go ahead and take our motion now to the judge to compel her to answer these questions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Now, that`s the attorney for Zenaida Gonzalez. He wants to get answers out of Casey Anthony. She`s giving the Fifth. He`s going to go and try to get a judge to force her.
Jeff Brown, criminal defense attorney out of Tampa, do you think Casey Anthony will be forced to answer questions?
JEFF BROWN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I really don`t. You know, let`s keep in mind this is a defamation lawsuit. And I think Casey`s lawyers should be saying, "Look, we admit that she`s liable. We admit she defamed her. The issue should be damages."
So I don`t think that that`s really an issue as to what happened to Caylee in the defamation lawsuit.
Keep in mind, there`s always the Fifth Amendment right in case of a federal prosecution for a civil rights prosecution. That`s highly unlikely. And if the judge seems to say she has no Fifth Amendment right and she`s compelled to answer the question, then that`s going to be interesting. Because if the judge also rules the question is relevant and she has to answer and she doesn`t answer, he`ll order her back in jail. She`ll sit in jail on a contempt charge, waiting to answer those questions.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But here`s the problem, Mark Eiglarsh. They`re not admitting that she defamed her. Casey`s lawyers are not doing anything of the kind. This is the same woman who signed a form at the very apartment complex where Casey Anthony first claimed that she dropped her little daughter Caylee, which turned out to be a lie, because the apartment was never rented out to this woman. She just signed a form seeking information about an apartment, but somehow she got the name Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. OK, that`s a mouthful.
Should Casey just admit that she somehow saw that name and put an end to this?
EIGLARSH: Sure, she should. And I agree with Jeff. Unfortunately, that we`re probably never going to hear from her in this deposition. The courts give wide latitude to defendants to be able to show that in any way they could face potential criminal prosecution.
And let`s just say this. We don`t know what Casey did. We don`t. This verdict never spoke the truth. So it is possible that ex parte, meaning without the other party, the defense lawyer can tell the judge, look here are some of the things that she might face criminal prosecution for that are not...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The only thing that she`s -- I thought the basis of it was that she was appealing the four convictions of lying to cops. And that...
EIGLARSH: That`s...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that`s the basis of her not wanting to answer these questions.
EIGLARSH: That`s one.
And No. 2, all we have to do is explain, as Jeff did, well, there`s the possibility of federal prosecution, which is not likely or probable at all, or also, there are some other actions for which she was involved with that could subject her to criminal prosecution. It`s very general, and generally, the courts are going to allow someone to invoke.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Very briefly, Jeff Brown, we got an exclusive statement from Zenaida`s attorney, Matt Morgan, saying she did answer one question, at least. She said she last spoke to her parents October 14, 2008. Now this is months before little Caylee`s body was found. What do you make of that?
BROWN: yes. I don`t know how that`s true...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: 2008.
BROWN: ... what she means by that, 2008. Because we have her on videotape at the jail talking to her parents many times.
You know, on the legal aspect, I`m not so sure why that`s relevant to -- to this issue about the defamation. But I don`t see how that`s at all truthful as far as a response.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve administered it more than ten times.
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, ON TRIAL FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More than 20 times?
MURRAY: 30 days a month.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roughly?
MURRAY: Everyday. But I was a little bit surprised of his pharmacological knowledge. (INAUDIBLE) Oh, yes, I know Michael, I know Michael very well. He always -- he does well under that. He loves that drug.
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: Don`t have enough hope. No more hope.
MURRAY: I was trying to wean him off.
He wasn`t breathing. So immediately, I felt for a pulse. His body was warm. There was no change in color. So I started immediately to perform CPR.
JACKSON: I feel their pain. I feel their hurt.
MURRAY: I continued to do CPR and mouth-to-mouth resuscitation until the paramedics came.
JACKSON: I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood.
MURRAY: I cared about him. I didn`t want him to fail. I had no intentions of hurting him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: It is the battle of the tapes; an extraordinary trend in the Michael Jackson death trial. You have an audiotape of Michael Jackson, slurring his words, as having a tremendous impact on the case. You also have another audiotape of Dr. Conrad Murray talking to cops and telling them what he says happened the day that Michael Jackson died.
Is he a spin doctor, however? Is he spinning the explanation to benefit himself and it`s essentially allowing him to testify without taking the stand?
Without a doubt, the most dramatic part of Dr. Conrad Murray`s police interview was where he described finding Michael Jackson`s unresponsive body. Was the king of pop already dead?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He wasn`t breathing. So immediately I felt for a pulse. His body was warm. There was no change in color. So I started immediately to perform CPR and mouth-to-mouth resuscitation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. So that raises our big issue tonight here on ISSUES: no cross-examination. Did Dr. Murray do this interview so he could essentially testify off the stand? So he could give his version of events, spinning it and showing what a wonderful caring doctor he is with a whole bunch of self serving statements that well, the only other person who was in the room is dead, Michael Jackson -- without being cross-examined by the prosecution.
I want to go straight out to Dylan Howard, senior executive editor, "Star Magazine"; you`ve got breaking news on this front. Dylan what is it?
DYLAN HOWARD, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "STAR MAGAZINE": Well, Jane, as we understand Dr. Conrad Murray is making the moves to testify. He has told his legal counsel that he wants to talk. As one person close to case told me, he is a God-fearing man and he is ready to tell the truth.
Of course, though, what we heard from those tapes that were played on Friday afternoon is very telling for Conrad Murray and almost boxes him into a corner to have to defend himself. He never told the police who he was on the phone to just before Jackson took that lethal dose of Propofol. So there is some explaining that needs to be done and perhaps putting him on the witness stand will give the defense the chance to do so.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen to this, another jaw-dropping audio clip played in court Friday where Dr. Murray explains what Michael Jackson told him allegedly -- remember, Michael Jackson isn`t around to defend himself any more -- shortly before he died. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He complained that he couldn`t perform. He`d have to cancel rehearsals again. It`s going to put the show behind, and just you know, not satisfy his fans if he wasn`t rested well and (INAUDIBLE). It was a lot of pressure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beth Karas, correspondent "In Session", you have come up with about at least half a dozen inconsistencies in Dr. Conrad`s statements. Give us a summary, if you will.
BETH KARAS, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, some of them, the easy ones we`ve been talking about a lot of the time line. He tells that police that he found Michael unresponsive around 11:00. It was actually closer to 12:00 and both sides concede that now. He tells the ER doctors he doesn`t remember what medicines he gave him besides -- or he didn`t give him anything but Lorazepam. He tells the police that he gave several drugs, Lorazepam and Diazepam as well as Propofol.
He says that he was the one who recommended that an autopsy be done in this case and that is not at all the case. The ER doctor said that Michael Jackson was her patient and that she made the decision.
And then there are various statements regarding the resuscitative efforts. He says he was doing CPR immediately and there doesn`t seem to be evidence of that. But that may be hard to refute. He`s going to say that he did not put an IV drip -- he did not set up an IV drip of Propofol after putting him under to keep him under because Propofol is fast-acting. He did that in the past. He`s going to say on this night that he didn`t. There was testimony that seems -- or evidence that seems to be inconsistent that. The Propofol bottle inside the saline bag --
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, you`re getting the idea -- a lot of inconsistencies. Ian Halperin, author of "Unmasked: The final years of Michael Jackson", should Dr. Conrad Murray take the stand or did he already pull a fast one and basically testified with this audiotape without having to be cross-examined?
IAN HALPERIN, AUTHOR, "UNMASKED": Well, Jane, I think already he incriminated himself with that audio tape. It was very damning because once again we see how often Dr. Murray changes his story.
Bottom line is Dr. Murray is a killer. He is getting off scot-free here. He should be charged for murder one, Jane, let alone spend much more time behind bars than just four years.
I`m telling you right now, the Murray camp is desperate. They have huddled all weekend and they are trying to debunk the prosecution and they are going to be very unsuccessful. If they put him up on the stand, it`s going to be a nightmare because once again, he`s going to give us contradictory testimony.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you agree, Hamid Towfigh, former L.A. Deputy DA - - Hamid Towfigh -- what`s your opinion.
HAMID TOFAI, FORMER L.A. DEPUTY DA: Absolutely not, Jane. He should not take the stand. If he takes the stand, he`s going to be skewered, chewed up and spit out by David Walgren who is very skilled in cross examination. He has way too many inconsistencies in the story and everything that Conrad Murray did in this case was wrong.
From the time when he ordered the Propofol to when he set up the IV drip with the Propofol in it, to leaving Michael Jackson in a room that had access to these types of drugs.
On the other hand, I don`t think he actually needs to testify because the prosecution I think did Conrad Murray a huge favor by playing that tape. The prosecution didn`t need to play that tape right now. Remember, under California law, the prosecution is the only side that can actually play the statement of the defendant. If the prosecution plays it, it`s admissible. If the defense wants to play it, it`s considered hearsay and excludable. The prosecution should have saved that tape which would have forced Conrad Murray to take the stand and testify to tell his side of the story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Save it for what?
Towfigh: They should have saved that for perhaps the rebuttal case. But they shouldn`t have played it in their case in chief because now Conrad Murray actually has a choice. He doesn`t really have to testify because most of the stuff that he`s going to say already came out on this tape.
They should have saved this tape; that would have forced Conrad Murray to take the stand. He would have been skewered by Dave Walgren. And that would be the end of the case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think we have some reaction from an attorney for a doctor that Conrad Murray basically threw under the bus on this audiotape. We`re going to play that in a second. But I have to say I agree with you. Because I talk to a lot of people and I`m getting tweets and texts from people who say they feel sorry for him after hearing the tape.
Now, in a literal sense, yes, he absolutely incriminated himself because he admitted that he gave Michael Jackson Propofol. But on another level, the way he spins it, that he didn`t want to do it, that he was under tremendous pressure. That another doctor had done it first.
Some people, who might be more like jurors than let`s say a former prosecutor, are like well I kind of see his point.
Now he does point to a doctor named David Adams. On this tape that Dr. Murray has with police, a conversation with cops, he points a finger at Dr. David Adams and he says, Dr. David Adams was giving him Propofol before I was in Las Vegas.
Guess what? Dr. David Adams attorney spoke to me here Friday and he is now threatening to sue Conrad Murray. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIBO AGWARA, ATTORNEY FOR DR. DAVID ADAMS: First of all, Dr. Murray is lying. And I believe that he can -- I think he has proven himself to be a good liar. His words are the words of a desperate man. Ok.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now he`s contemplating a lawsuit against Dr. Murray.
AGWARA: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is he going to do forward, do you think?
AGWARA: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So you`re going to sue?
AGWARA: My client will sue. My client has put over 6,000 people to sleep. They all woke up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Ian Halperin, what do you make of the fact that he tries to implicate this other doctor which is sort of passing the buck. I didn`t think of it first. This doctor is coming out saying, "I`m going to sue him."
HALPERIN: He`s desperate Jane. He`s soon going to accuse you of putting him on to the Propofol. Look, this guy he`s gasping again. This guy is guilty. He did not have the proper ventilating equipment. He didn`t have the proper intubation.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Ian, let me say that. We all know about that.
HALPERIN: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What about the people, tweeting and texting after this audiotape coming out and says I kind of feel sorry for Dr. Murray. They bought the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. And they bought the whole notion. Go ahead.
HALPERIN: Look, a lot of people -- I know. Unfortunately a lot of people feel sorry for a lot of killers but it still doesn`t indemnify them of doing the crime. And I`m telling you right now, out of any crime I have seen between O.J., between all the celebrity cases, there is nobody more guilty than Conrad Murray. He was just ill-equipped and should never have been performing all this stuff in a domestic setting.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well I want to thank you all. I want to tell that you coming up next, we`re going to have a childhood friend, an exclusive here on ISSUES, a childhood friend of Michael Jackson`s. She has photos and she`s got a story to tell.
And we`re going to take your calls. What do you want to know about Michael Jackson`s childhood? You can ask her, 1-877-JVM-SAYS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LATOYA JACKSON, SISTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: In the beginning, I just immediately I said, I don`t know if I really want to do this, to come out of retirement for all these years. And then I said I have to. It`s Michael. You have to do this for him. I mean he would do it for you. So of course I did. And I enjoyed it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: It`s tiring. But we got to get justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m looking so forward for this to be over. I bet Conrad Murray is looking forward to this being over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop the trial right now. I think they have already proven the case. And I think that they are trying to muddy Michael`s name.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Propofol in the urine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE? Condom catheter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have three pill bottles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The children were crying and screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, Latoya was not happy. Jermaine was not happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would rather hear about Michael`s moon walk and the stuff he wanted to do for kids and "Heal the World" and "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" rather than his urine content and his liver percentages of this gobbledygook.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Growing outrage tonight over the incredibly intimate details being released about Michael Jackson in the course of this trial of his doctor. The intensely private king of pop would be horrified, most of his friends say, at seeing his life dissected like this in open court.
Remember, Michael Jackson guarded his privacy to the point where his children wore masks when they stepped outside. Listen to just a tiny bit of what has been revealed and the reaction to it from his childhood friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A condom catheter would not be uncommon to someone who has problems with incontinence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prescription made out to Mick Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detected Propofol in the urine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would rather hear about Michael`s moon walk and the stuff he wanted to do for kids and "Heal the World" and "Beat It" and "Billie Jean" rather than his urine content and his liver percentages of this gobbledygook.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is all so stunning considering Michael Jackson was a perfectionist and very concerned about his image, extremely concerned. So should these details be released? I would like to hear what you have to say, 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
Joining me tonight in an ISSUES exclusive; I`m thrilled to have someone who says she grew up with Michael Jackson. Joanelle Romero, thank you for being here. These are photos, with you ---
JOANELLE ROMERO, MICHAEL JACKSON`S CHILDHOOD FRIEND: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And who is the cute adorable child in the middle.
ROMERO: That`s my daughter, Sage.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow.
ROMERO: And that`s during the "Black and White" music video. It is a wonderful story, our story, my life with Michael.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ok. Tell me how you met him.
ROMERO: Ok, I met him in the sixth grade at Gardner Street School.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s here in Los Angeles.
ROMERO: That`s here in Los Angeles.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They moved from Gary, Indiana all the way to Los Angeles.
ROMERO: Right. And they lived -- and they lived on King`s Road. And my brother and I were the only ones allowed up to the house to visit and --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did you know he was famous?
ROMERO: Well, it was when he had "ABC".
VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was still famous.
ROMERO: He was 11. I used to protect him in school. The kids were kind of mean to him in school. And I remember sitting on the steps of Gardner Street School. He asked me to go steady. He was like really shy. He had a tremendous light then as he always carried throughout his whole life.
He had a major concern at 11 as well as I. And he used to swing me in this big swing, Jane, at his house. We used to talk about bringing peace to the world. And you know, love and peace and what we`re going to do to save the world. And this is at 11, you know, we were talking about this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Did he seem traumatized at 11? Because he`d already talked about being beaten -- in retrospect, he said at that age, he was already being hit his dad with a belt when he made mistakes during rehearsal. Did you hear anything about that?
ROMERO: No. And I`m -- but you know when we`re survivors. I have 30 years sober and when we`re survivors --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Congratulations.
ROMERO: Yes. Thank you.
And when we are survivors and we are told not to talk about these kind of things, you know, we don`t at that age.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: On Saturday, there was a huge Michael Jackson tribute concert in Wales and his children showed up dressed in his old costumes. Check this out from iambicTV (ph) and YouTube. Something to see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MICHAELK JACKSON TRIBUTE CONCERT IN WALES)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is bringing out some emotion in you. Why?
ROMERO: It is because children were very, very precious to Michael, all children. And the reason why I`m so honored to be here is because Michael`s legacy and philanthropy that he created for his children and to see Blanket and the kids there, I`m so glad that mom -- grandma, took them over to Europe to celebrate their father, to celebrate his talent, his magic, his light and to keep them in that instead of in this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what I said. I said, Katherine did all of this to distract the children so that they were happy in remembering their father in a positive light as opposed to remembering and hearing about these tremendously personal details. Things like catheters and urine and all these things, the most private person on earth, how upsetting is that? We will be right back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
L. JACKSON: In the beginning, I just immediately said I don`t know if I really want to do this, to come out of retirement for all these years. But then I said I have to. It is Michael you have to do this for him. I mean he would do it for you. So of course, I did and I enjoyed it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now that`s Latoya at the concert in Wales over the weekend. It was a tribute to Michael Jackson, but there was a lot of division in the family.
Jermaine was not in favor of it. Janet wasn`t in favor of it. They said the whole family should be here at the trial where we are, right here in downtown Los Angeles. The Criminal Courts Building is right behind me.
I`m here with Joanelle Romero who was childhood friend of Michael Jackson`s and reconnected around the "Black and White" video time.
What do you think? Do you think the family should all be here it doing you a united front or should they have gone to Wales and some of them done that concert?
ROMERO: There is a united front with the Jackson family already that is well-established. There has always been a united front and I think is fabulous that his mother took the kids to Europe and celebrating their father`s life and legacy. And that`s where they should be and that`s what a grandma -- that`s what grandmas do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s true.
ROMERO: That`s what grandmas do. And there is a united front, they are all there. The family`s there.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s your reaction to all these personal details of Michael Jackson, the urine and the catheters and the syringes and all of these things being revealed about the most private man in the world? What would his reaction have been?
ROMERO: There are no words. The word is unconscionable -- am I saying that correct?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
ROMERO: It`s unconscionable, what`s going on. There are no English words to define what is happening with the state that we are in with television. This is Michael Jackson. There`s not going to be another Michael Jackson ever, ever. He was the only person on this earth that can drop all races, all nationalities, all -- everyone at a drop of a hat. He was the only person on this planet -- I know no one on this planet that can do that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And yet, this is what`s happening to him in death?
ROMERO: And it`s -- it`s unconscionable. It`s -- it`s --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s like dissecting his life in the most unflattering manner imaginable. How would he have reacted if he could see what`s happening now?
ROMERO: Things have already broken his heart with media. Michael was a -- was an incredible human being. He was a human being. He had feelings. He had a heart. He had tenderness. And he was an entertainer, the greatest entertainer that we have ever had, greater than Elvis. I grew up on the sets of Elvis Presley. My mom did the Presley movies. Michael was the greatest entertainer. He was human being.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But his family says they want justice and this is what is required in a criminal trial.
ROMERO: Yes. Yes. So we have to do that but it`s still unconscionable and what would he have thought, you know -- what I feel --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What do you feel?
ROMERO: What I feel is that this man should get more than four years.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Four years. I think that`s what a lot of fans are saying, all this for four years? All this for four years? This is justice for Michael, embarrassing him in death with personal details? All for the maximum of four years? And then it could even be less because of prison overcrowding.
We will be right back. Thank you Joanelle.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There`s speculation that Dr. Conrad Murray might want to take the stand and testify in his own defense. Now, why would he want to do that when he has an audio recording that essentially allows him to testify without ever being cross-examined? He talked to the cops at a hotel I`ve been to, the Ritz Carlton Marina Del Rey, very fancy-dancy place. He was with his lead attorney, Ed Chernoff and he painted himself as a very caring doctor, using all sorts of phrases like "I slowly infused the medication, I safely infused, I was cautious. I watched over him. I observed him."
Also talked about trying to urge Michael Jackson to deal with his insomnia by meditating; he claims he even rubbed the king of pop`s feet in a desperate attempt to get him to go to sleep. But he also admitted in the course of that police interview that he did give Michael Jackson Propofol. Not what he is supposed to be doing. That makes him culpable.
"NANCY GRACE" next.
END
