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Dr. Drew
Michael Jackson Death Trial: Day 10
Aired October 11, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Tonight, the Conrad Murray trial continues. I am at the UCLA Medical Center. The emergency room just there where paramedics rushed Michael Jackson for aggressive attempts at resuscitation, including the insertion of what is called Intra-aortic balloon pump. Very aggressive, an actual balloon that goes just above the heart to try to pump blood around his body. But in spite of these aggressive measures, all was for naught because his doctor didn`t call 911. His doctor, who continue to refused to give paramedics and doctors in the emergency room the facts about what happened that day.
Ryan back to you at the courthouse, what`s the latest?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, IN SESSION: Doctor Drew, thank you so much. What a day in court today.
And you know what, first it was centered on the family members, right. The tape of Doctor Conrad Murray was played in court and we heard what Doctor Murray saw. Everything that happened after Michael Jackson died. And this includes Katherine Jackson breaking down and includes the children at times.
Doctor Murray very much portraying himself as the hero. But then we heard the medical examiner. And the medical examiner got into everything about the case, the cause, the manner of death. Critical to this case.
No, we`re going to get into this. You know what we`re going to do tonight? We`re going to cover both sides of the case. We are not just talk about what we saw in court but talk about what`s going to happen going forward. What will the prosecution do with this and the defense as well. Now take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VENNIE POLITAN, HLN CORRESPONDENT: Day ten of Conrad Murray trial set to get under way. Jurors will hear the last 45 minutes of Murray`s interview with police two days after Michael Jackson died.
He already said some emotional things.
DOCTOR CONRAD MURRAY, DEFENDANT IN MICHAEL JACKSON`S DEATH: I hug them all, give them comfort, comfort to Paris, to Prince, to Blanket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The forensic pathologist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the manner of death?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The manner was homicide.
SMITH: The medical examiner saying it is not reasonable that Michael Jackson self administered propofol. Huge blow to the defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But the thing I think a lot of people will take away from today is the photo of Michael Jackson dead, unclothed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SMITH: I want to tell you about something that came out in court today. And this one was a very, very big deal in court.
You see Doctor Murray right there. And remember, the medical examiner took the stand. He will talk about the cause and manner of death. So, the prosecutors made a very interesting but a very controversial decision. They showed the picture of a deceased Michael Jackson and the court was stunned by this.
Now, we want to show the picture. And I want to warn you before we do. It is disturbing. If you`ve got kids are in the room, maybe you cover their eyes. Maybe you just avert your eyes as well if this is something too much to take. We are only going to put it up a couple of seconds. We`re putting it up because it was showed in court and want to give you all sides of what happened. So, take a look at this.
Again, the prosecution put this up. Risky decision. That`s Michael Jackson. Deceased. His picture was shown in the courtroom a couple of seconds. It was shown on a big screen so the jury could see it. The jury`s reaction, they weren`t necessary flabbergasted, they took notes.
But the reaction of the people in court, Jackson fans hugging each other, one had to leave the courtroom. I want to also let you know, Katherine Jackson and Reebee Jackson came to court but not there for this.
It is very likely that the prosecutors told them beforehand, hey you know what, we`re going to show this picture, and it might be a lot for you to see. And that`s why they left court before it was shown. I think a very good move there. Because you know what, this is one of the hardest things for people to see, the victim in this case deceased.
Now, let`s take it to my guests. As we look at this, we are going to talk about this issue. Was it a good idea to put it up and also what came out from the medical examiner? Got Beth Karas, "On Session" correspondent with us, also Doctor John Dombrowski. He has the great deal of expertise in these areas especially in the medical field, that`s why we need you doctor to guide us through some of the medical issues that came out.
Now, Beth first, let`s talks about this photo. Because what a lot of people are talking about tonight is was it a good idea for the prosecutors to put this up because it is risky. Because this isn`t a gunshot wound case, right? We don`t need to see the wound. There`s no wound here. But it`s up there for people decision.
BETH KARAS, IN SESSION CORRESPONDENT: That`s true. That`s true, but Conrad Murray in his statement to the police two days after Michael Jackson died said "well, you know he wasn`t really that well and he was losing weight." And there was testimony during the trial that he was losing weight through the course of rehearsals. And Murray made a point of telling that Jackson he just wasn`t all that well.
But the same day that Michael died, just hours before he died, he was sending an e-mail to London to the insurance broker saying all those media reports about his health are fallacious. They are wrong. He`s fine. He`s healthy. Well, he is on the thin side. And the prosecution wanted to show it is a healthy man, albeit thin, he was still within the BMI, the body mass index, healthy range.
SMITH: And you know, that`s exactly what the medical examiner said. He said, he`s even more healthy than most his age. So, even though you see Michael Jackson there in that picture, he looks gaunt, the medical examiner making the point that he was still very healthy.
Now, take a look at this. This is something the medical examiner said. He said if Michael had already taken a dose of propofol, he would have been too groggy to get himself a fatal dose two minutes later. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOCTOR CHRISTOPHER ROGERS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: You would have to assume that Mister Jackson woke up, although he was at least to some extent at least under the influence of propofol and other sedatives, he was able to somehow administer propofol to himself. If you inject propofol in the leg, it takes awhile for it to get to the brain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Doctor John Dombrowski, anesthesiologist, pain management specialist. Doctor, does this prove that in no way could Michael Jackson have given himself a fatal dose of propofol?
DOCTOR JOHN DOMBROWSKI, ANESTHESIOLOGIST, PAIN MANAGEMENT SPECIALIST: I was always very suspicious of someone administering their own propofol. I know that`s a defense side, I truly respect that. But as a practicing anesthesiologist, I mean the way propofol works on any patient is that it puts you right out and you don`t come to and do it again to yourself. This is - it seemed very sketchy at the first time I heard the story.
And the other thing is the medical examiner has an excellent point with respect to where the IV is in the patient. Obviously the longer, farther away from the body, such as in a leg vein, takes longer to circulate to the heart and then the pump to the head. So, I think this is a crucial blow to the defense.
SMITH: Yes, right? Because that was the theory that we all thought they are going to offer, that Michael Jackson self administered propofol. So, the prosecution came right out and had the M.E. make that clear.
Now, he said something else as well. Very powerful in this case for the prosecution. The defense claims that Michael Jackson swallowed more propofol when Conrad Murray stepped out of the room, but the medical examiner said this can`t be true. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you make observations regarding his esophagus?
ROGERS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was his esophagus intact throughout?
ROGERS: Yes, it was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you see any white liquid substance, in either his stomach, throat, esophagus or mouth?
ROGERS: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. So you hear it right there, Beth Karas. See, now it`s interesting, right? Because you could say a lot of things. You could say well, maybe the propofol dissipated in his stomach, but there would be evidence of it on his lungs, in his stomach, esophagus, but it is not there.
KARAS: Now here`s - throughout the pendency of the case, it looked like that`s where they were going that he swallowed it. But it looks like they may have abandoned that theory now in the trial and that they`re going to say he somehow got up and took pills of lorazepam, eight of them, that he swallowed them. There`s no tablets or capsules in the stomach, maybe they liquefied by then. And he then go back to bed and injected himself with 25 milligrams of propofol, that there was a syringe of 50. The doctor gave him 25 and the syringe had another 25 in it, and he gave himself another 25. I don`t think that comports with the level of propofol in him.
SMITH: But now we hear he couldn`t have injected it. So, if that`s the case, what does the defense do at this point?
KARAS: You may have able to start plunging it but I don`t think you could have finish that but the doctor would know better.
SMITH: Alright. So, doctor, is there anything that you see here for the defense? Because at the same time, you know even if he got up and took those pills, and remember you have not a condom catheter on, but he also have an IV in the leg. Even if he did that, do you see that as logical explanation? That he still could have even pushed the syringe to give himself propofol?
DOMBROWSKI: Again, we have talked about this you know earlier part. The answer is no. This is extremely unusual. I mean the whole scenario is extremely unusual. And again, the whole idea of ingesting propofol orally, this is not how it works. It can only be given intravenously to have any effect in it.
SMITH: Alright, there you have it. And you know, you have to wonder at this point, what is the defense`s theory? We`re going to get into that in a bit.
For the latest on the Michael Jackson death trial, I want you to go to hlnTV.com/MichaelJackson. You can get all of the latest information on this case.
You can see what we see, because we get so much information about this case. Just to keep up with everything, just go there. You will have all the information you need.
But up next, Conrad Murray alleged he had no idea other doctors were supplying Michael Jackson with drugs. You are going to hear his jaw dropping statement to police when we come back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: Please, don`t worry. As long as I keep god in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth and I have faith the truth will prevail. God bless you and thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The charge of involuntary manslaughter, a felony, Doctor Murray, how do you plead?
MURRAY: Your honor, I`m an innocent man. I therefore plead not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: That right there was Doctor Conrad Murray pleading not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the death of Michael Jackson. Now, today Doctor Murray`s defense team hoped to bolster his claim of innocence as the jury heard Murray`s taped interview with the police investigator.
Now, as you hear this, remember Doctor Murray may not take the stand in this. And in fact, it is unlikely that he will. This may be the only time that we hear from Doctor Murray. Now, Murray said many things, but one thing he said that really stood out, he said he had no idea that other doctors were prescribing drugs to Michael Jackson. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: I heard that he was seeing a Doctor Klein three times a week. And he never disclosed that to me. And I had seen bottles of pills at his bedside that have Doctor Klein`s name on it, (inaudible). So, I realize that he is also seeing other physicians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Then right after that, Doctor Murray points the finger directly at Jackson`s dermatologist, Arnold Klein. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: He said to me recently that his rough days on the set is when you`re going to Doctor Klein`s office which is about three times a week and when he came back, he was basically wasted need 24 hours for recovery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: OK. So, you hear that. Arnold Klein, he is pointing at. Last week when we heard the tape, he talked about David Adams, an anesthesiologist that he says provided propofol to Michael Jackson.
Let me give it to my guests. Criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh is with us. Tanya Acker is an attorney and special legal correspondent for `Entertainment Tonight. Also, Doctor John Dombrowski. He is an anesthesiologist and pain management specialist.
Alright Mark, I`m going to start with you. Mark, is he throwing Doctor Arnold Klein under the bus and does this mean the jury might look at him and say hey, maybe Doctor Murray isn`t responsible, there might be a long line of doctors that are responsible to what happened to Michael Jackson?
MARK EIGLARSH: CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. When you`re facing four years of potential shanking in prison and hard time, you`ll throw anyone under the bus. It is the claim game. If anyone but the defendant. Casey Anthony was George, George disposed the body. O.J. Simpson`s first trial, Mark Fuhrman and company.
The goal, as the defense flair, is to point to anyone you possibly can other than your client. Now, will it work? The reality is other people may share some blame in this, but legally, it makes absolutely no difference. The jurors are to analyze his conduct factually, and if legally it meets with the elements of the crime, he is guilty, even if others are responsible.
SMITH: All right. You know, Tanya Acker, it is interesting. We know that we`ll see and we heard this before, Doctor Klein`s records will come into this trial, but Doctor Klein is not coming into this trial. How come he is not going to be a witness?
TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY: Well, you know this was the subject of a lot of pretrial disputes between the prosecution and the defense. But I have to say I think that the prosecution still has a lot of ammunition. I mean I don`t care how many doctors you throw under the bus. If a doctor is on trial for acting recklessly, for acting with gross negligence. You know there are all kinds of questions about the duty of care. Should he have known, should he have tested Michael Jackson for other agents when he saw these other vials and bottles on his - at his bedside table. Should he have done other investigation. So I am not sure pointing the finger in this case will be enough to convince the jury he wasn`t reckless with respect to this care.
SMITH: And you know the other part of this is we`re hearing Doctor Murray`s version of the story. So, if you don`t believe Doctor Murray, then that puts a lot of this in doubt. But if you do, then you`ve got a lot of other factors to think about if you`re a juror. Now, here is what Arnold Klein told Larry king in an October, 2009 interview. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING SHOW: Did you ever give him drugs?
DOCTOR ARNOLD KLEIN, DERMATOLOGIST: Did I ever give medication? When I did surgical procedures on him I gave him medication. I once gave him muscle relax and the in the last seven years, and that was about it except if (inaudible). I never gave him anything to take home that was addicting. I mean I was aware he used propofol, it`s a drug we talked about before, which is a drug of addiction, people don`t know and it`s very poorly controlled by the government.
KING: That`s usually given in different setting.
KLEIN: It is given under anesthesia by someone with proper monitoring.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SMITH: You know, Doctor Dombrowski, let me ask you. What`s your take on Doctor Klein because you know there`s this talk of Doctor Murray saying that when he came from Doctor Klein, he was at his worst. If Michael Jackson was seeing him three times a week, I wonder if some people will think that maybe he had some negative interaction with Michael Jackson.
DOMBROWSKI: I think that the end of the day what you should look at is with respect to what the patient was getting, Mister Jackson. Any physician, like an anesthesiologist, when a patient comes to me in the operating room, I have to know every medication he or she is on so I know how the anesthetic will interact with the individual. We as anesthesiologists are personally responsible for that patient. So, I would agree with the guest that you have to know the medication of that patient is getting. So that way, when you have to - if you use propofol, you are going to know how to monitor the patient and how much to give the patient. That`s incredibly important information. And with respect to Doctor Klein. Go ahead.
SMITH: No, go ahead.
DOMBROWSKI: With respect to Doctor Klein, I mean, as a dermatologist, I take him at his word that he provided him with muscle relaxants which can be very sedating. It`s almost like having a couple of vodkas, and that might make you feel out of it for awhile, such as (inaudible), those drugs can be powerful, can be somewhat addicting too, but can really you know take the wind out of your sails.
SMITH: Doctor Dombrowski, you brought up an interesting point that when you are dealing with a patient, you know every medication that he`s got. You make sure of that. One thing that struck us about what Doctor Murray said in this tape is that he didn`t disclose, Michael Jackson didn`t necessarily disclose the doctors he was work with. But he noticed that there were pill bottles all over the room. Does that tell you that may be Doctor Murray failed Michael Jackson in not getting to know everybody that he was interacting with and what he may have taking as it may have effect his treatment of Michael?
DOMBROWSKI: Agreed. I mean that`s the point of knowing your surroundings. Again, when he`s providing this level of care to Michael Jackson, he is going to see what medication is around him. He can`t help but notice it. He can saw and pick up the bottle, read what he`s taking, my goodness. Let me give this physician a call.
We do it all the time as anesthesiologists and people that specialize in pain medicine to call other primary care or other physicians involving one patient`s care to make sure we are all coordinating together so they get the right care. The other point you bring up I wanted to mention with you, is that any time you give anyone an anesthetic, you never leave the patient. You don`t say well, he self administered, he drank it, went someplace else. Because I am always there in attendance to find out what goes on. So, you never abandon your patient at any time.
SMITH: Very interesting. Very interesting, Doctor Dombrowski.
Alright, thank you so much to all of my guests. Keep it right here. We`re going to be back and talk more about the addiction that goes on in this case. Was Michael Jackson addicted and what is the bottom of this? Let`s get to it. We are going to talk about this in a second. Keep it here. It`s Ryan smith filling in for Doctor Drew.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER (through recording): I love them because I didn`t have a childhood. I had no childhood. I feel their pain. I feel their hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Welcome back to Doctor Drew. I`m Ryan Smith, filling in for Doctor Drew.
Folks, that was one of the most chilling moments of the entire trial the playing of Michael Jackson slurred audio recording taped by Doctor Conrad Murray. Now for many, that voice recording is proof the king of pop suffered from substance abuse.
But to this day, Jermaine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s brother, maintain that his brother was not an addict. Here is what Jermaine tweeted just days ago. Take a look.
He said "I have grown tired of the assumptions attached to the audio recording of Michael. Michael was not an addict, he was an insomniac desperate for sleep."
To Mark Eiglarsh. And by the way, I am so happy that all of our guests were able to stay with us. Mark, Tanya, Doctor Dombrowski, all with us.
Mark Eiglarsh, what does this tape tell you in a larger way? Is Michael Jackson, in your mind, someone who is addicted to substances, or he has just an insomniac?
EIGLARSH: Tells me that his brother doesn`t know much about addiction, with all due respect. And volubility and accuracy are two different things. You may have come across believable, but he is not accurate.
Michael Jackson at a minimum, was dependent upon these drugs. I think it cross the line to addiction because he was powerless to control fill in the blank. He needed these medications. Again, to no fault of this own, he had the tragic hair fire that it occurred. And then he began taking pills and over the years, we see what was assembled in his bedroom.
That coupled with his slurred speeches, behavior, clearly Doctor Conrad Murray knew that he was an addict at least dependent on these pills. And he had a duty to never the room. Never to administer what he did and never to set up a system like he did.
SMITH: Alright Doctor Dombrowski, you hear that tweet. What is the line for doctors in determining addiction and working with addiction? When do you know that someone has this kind of problem? If in fact Michael Jackson did.
DOMBROWSKI: Well, I think with the respect to Mister Jackson`s brother, there`s always a great sense of denial. It can`t be , can`t be my brother. It can`t be my sister or my wife. And the problems are looking with straight at you in the face because there`s no one that have these mount of medications an insomniac, I can`t sleep.
The reason he can`t sleep is that he became dependent on more, more powerful medications at helplessly. And you become very dependent. We`ve all heard people, they take an ambient or xonan and then they needed another one, need another one, need another one. Next thing you know, you can`t - you become very addictive to these medications.
And again, from a physician stand point and anesthesiologist who does pain medicine, is you have to take that history. Do you have any history of addiction neither with yourself with alcohol, medications, anything. Either your mom or your dad, do they have a history? Because there`s a tremendous genetic component to this.
SMITH: Alright, Tanya Acker real quick question here. Do you think any talk about Michael Jackson possibly being addicted, anything like that do you think that it means it is a better situation for the defense? In a sense that they can say well, Michael Jackson may have been an addict, folks on the jury, and therefore maybe he did it to himself?
ACKER: I think in the circumstances of this case, Ryan, it is almost beside the point. I mean, the prosecution`s case does not rest on Michael Jackson being completely healthy or completely clean or never using Demerol or never using lorazepam. The prosecution`s case rests on whether or not Doctor Murray recklessly administered propofol.
SMITH: Great point. Great point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMITH: Today, testimony in the Michael Jackson death trial reveals new details about the singer`s health.
Tonight, Michael`s medical issues, the litany of conditions that came out in court.
And later, the King of Pop, his loved ones, and his doctor`s case. A dear friend and confidante of Michael reveals what the tabloids reported and how wrong they all were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m Dr. Drew. I`m just outside the UCLA Medical Center emergency room. Back to the courthouse, more with Ryan. What`s up? What`s the latest?
SMITH (on-camera): Thank you so much, Drew. And, thank you for letting me fill in. Take a look at that, folks. That`s a picture of city hall right there, the courthouse where Dr. Murray is facing trial in the death of Michael Jackson.
Well, tonight, we`re looking at the other medical problems that were revealed In Michael Jackson`s autopsy report. You know, some believe Michael Jackson was bleaching his skin, but in this interview with Oprah Winfrey in 1993, Michael tells her that was not the case. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: Is your skin lighter because you don`t like being black?
MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: I have a skin disorder that destroys the pigmentation of the skin. It`s something that I cannot help. OK? But, when people make up stories that I don`t want to be who I am, it hurts me. So, it is -- it`s a problem for me, OK? I can`t control it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: All right. Joining us tonight to talk about some of these medical concerns, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a friend and spiritual adviser to Michael and author of the new book, "ten Conversations You Need to Have with Yourself." Flo Anthony, also a good friend of Michael, and she knew Michael for 30 years. And Dr. John Dombrowski joins us again. He`s anesthesiologist and a pain management specialist.
Thank you all for being here. Flo, let me start with you, and let`s talk first about some of these other medical issues. They were coming up today in the medical examiner`s testimony. He was talking about what Michael Jackson suffered from. You just heard that interview about Michael Jackson denying that he bleached his skin. Tell us what you know about this.
FLO ANTHONY, FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, he did suffer from vitiligo, and what vitiligo does, it does cause spotting of white spots on your skin. So, he did not bleach his skin to get totally white, but he was able to use creams that would even his skin tone out so that he wouldn`t just, you know, be turning the white color at a time and have the blotches all over his skin.
SMITH: So, did he actually bleach his skin?
ANTHONY: You know, I wouldn`t call it bleaching his skin. I would say he used creams to even it out, but he would eventually turn white like that anyway. Anyone who suffers from vitiligo does, but it wouldn`t be a pretty process, you know, while it was going on.
SMITH: And Dr. Dombrowski, let`s talk about vitiligo. It is a big part of Michael Jackson`s story. He talked about it many times. Can you tell us a little about it and how one starts developing vitiligo?
DR. JOHN DOMBROWSKI, ANESTHESIOLOGIST & PAIN MANAGEMENT SPECIALIST: Well, from my understanding from, you know, medical school, I mean, it`s quite -- it`s a little off topic from an anesthesiologist, but vitiligo has to do with the melanin which causes color in someone`s skin.
And, obviously, blacks have larger melanocytes or pigment cells and whites, like myself, have very little. And it`s very common for those melanocytes to die out causing this, you know, bleaching or whitening of the skin. It can happen in, you know, a blacks, and it can happen in whites also. Beyond that, I really can`t speak much to that point.
SMITH: OK. Doctor, thank you. You know, on the stand today was that forensic pathologist who conducted Michael Jackson`s autopsy. Now, he talked about Michael Jackson suffering from vitiligo. He confirmed that, and he also confirmed a few other ailments. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHRISTOPHER ROGERS, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: He had an enlargement of the prostate gland. He had vitiligo, which is a skin disorder. And he had a polyp of his colon. The nervous system showed mild diffuse swelling. The lung examination showed some chronic inflammation and scarring in the lungs. The radiology examination showed an extra rib and also some arthritis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: You know, it`s amazing to hear about his medical history. Rabbi Shmuley, talk to us about Michael Jackson. I know you talked to him for hours and hours. Did he ever talk to you about some of the ailments that he suffered?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR TO MICHAEL JACKSON: Not really. What we`re really seeing in this trial and that what we dare not forget is that the medical examiners have said that Michael was actually in good health, and yet, he dies of this drug overdose of propofol. How do you square the two? It`s simple. Michael`s ailments were primarily psychological ailments.
He had a broken heart. You`re speaking about a man who had no childhood. He was famous from the age of about five. He just wanted to be like every other child, but he was forced to perform. Then, he had a dream that he consecrated his fame towards children, and he would prioritize the needs of kids.
But, allegations of abuse, which I never believed, about kids made that impossible. So, he turns to more and more medication to treat this broken heart. And what you`re really seeing is that Michael is a physician here. I mean, it`s an axiom of faith almost that the wealthy and the famous get the best doctors.
Michael had the equivalent of the Monty Python medical circus. I mean, these doctors were just a bunch of jokes who do whatever he asks. He is prescribing the medication, and they`re giving it to him. Why? Because he`s in pain. He`s suffering. And not one of them said, Michael, you need -- these are maladies of the soul.
You are suffering, man. You need to talk to someone. That`s what he and I used to do. But you see, the concert promoters and the doctor which hired by the concert promoters, they wanted Michael to make money. They didn`t care about his problems. They didn`t care about how much he was suffering.
He was a cash cow. There was a whole industry that was Michael Jackson. And I feel that we`re missing that essential point in this trial. Michael was a healthy man, and he was taking a mountain of drugs because he was lonely, depressed. He felt abandoned, and he was suffering.
SMITH: Rabbi Shmuley, you bring up a great point, and you know, the M.E. actually said today, he was healthier than the average 50-year-old man, but you know, you talk about and you bring up a great point, because I think you`re hitting on something the defense will get into. This idea that these doctors were here enabling Michael Jackson, right?
Giving him these drugs, maybe he didn`t need them, but they kept him going. Now, here`s part of the problem with that, though. The defense is expected to say, well, Michael Jackson is the patient here. He could have said stop. He could have backed off.
What do you think about that, because I think that`s what they`re planning on pushing forward to try to show. Hey, there`s doctor responsibility and there`s patient responsibility.
BOTEACH: When I knew Michael, I did not see any kind of ailment. I know people are going to find this difficult to believe, but Michael was quite normal. I mean, he had some of the eccentricities that are associated with genius. Steve Jobs was an eccentric. But I related to him as just another person. But he was depressed.
He was lethargic. He had no energy. He needed motivation. And he turned to these concerts because of a mountain of debt. And he really should have been told, listen, get rid of Neverland. Get rid of all of the expenses and heal yourself. And, I`m amazed that there wasn`t one person in his vicinity who said that.
You know, I`m not here to judge Jermaine Jackson. He lost his brother, God bless him. But to say Michael was an addict, I mean, God help us. All I`m seeing is people who are in denial. We`re not addressing the core issue. These were spiritual maladies. These were sufferings of the soul. And, when we recorded these 30 hours of conversations, Michael was honest about it.
You know, the reaction was in the book of Michael Jackson tapes, even his fans were upset that the book was published because they didn`t want Michael talking about how lonely he was. My God. Michael says that he used to walk around Encino, California as the most famous human being on the planet begging people just to talk to him.
That was the level of isolation and loneliness. All he had was his kids. He`s a devoted father. And that`s why we hear in the testimony today, his kids saying, what are we going to do now without our dad. There was such an intense relationship between them.
SMITH: It absolutely was. Rabbi Shmuley, thank you. You`re absolutely right. And Flo Anthony, did you sense this kind of depression in Michael Jackson?
ANTHONY: Well, I want to say first of all that I disagree and agree with Rabbi Shmuley. First of all, he began taking the pain medication because his scalp caught on fire. Then again, he suffered a severe back injury during performing when a stage dropped, so he needed the pain medication. So, it wasn`t something that was in his mind.
And, he was a severe insomniac, and of course, it was way, way out of hand with the way that I do agree that these doctors were feeding him medicine. I`m not going to say he was prescribing it to himself because he couldn`t do it. Has he always said that he was somewhat lonely? Yes. But I think a lot of entertainers feel that, but he was certainly loved by his family, and he did have friends.
SMITH: He had a lot of friends, and he had a lot of fans that loved him as well. All right. Hold on for just one second. We`re going to come right back.
But when we come back, we`ll get into the real Michael Jackson. We`re getting to what was discussed in court today. We`ll talk about this.
Now, I want you to go to hlntv.com/michaeljackson for the latest trial coverage. Everything you need to know about this trial is on there, including a lot of the stuff that we see that you don`t necessarily see in the public. All of that is there. So, you can go and check it out.
Now, Guinness Book of World Records recognizes Michael Jackson as the most successful entertainer of all time, but Flo Anthony says he was simply her best buddy. Going to talk to her about that next.
Plus, the tabloid lies. We have the truth, and that`s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMITH: Thirty years ago, Michael Jackson went to Disneyland. He brought a woman who was a great friend of his. We`re going to talk about her in just a second, but take a look at that picture you just saw, that`s the courthouse where Conrad Murray is facing trial. Now, again, we talk about Michael`s friends. The people who knew him best.
Well, the woman I`m about to introduce you to, reintroduce you to, has known him for years. Now, joining us today, first, I`ve got my good friend, Stacy Kaiser, a psychotherapist, with insight into how Michael`s kids are coping, and we`re going to talk a little bit about Michael Jackson and some of what came up today in the case.
And also, back with us, Flo Anthony. She`s the woman who has known Michael Jackson for almost 30 years. She`s back with us. She`s a radio host and reporter who traveled the world with the King of Pop. And she`s going to reveal the truth behind some of those stories that you`ve heard over and over again about Michael Jackson.
Now, Flo, you were so close to Michael Jackson. Tell us what was the biggest tabloid myth that you`ve heard about him that you just want to debunk at this point?
ANTHONY: I want to say first, Ryan, we met at Disneyworld, not Disneyland in Orlando, Florida.
SMITH: That`s my -- oh, I`m sorry about that, but thank you for --
ANTHONY: That`s OK. It`s all kind of the same, but Disneyworld, and that was their first time there, too. And, it`s OK. You can say I knew him 30 years because once Mike turned 50, the rest of us couldn`t lie about our ages. So --
(LAUGHTER)
ANTHONY: But I would say earlier that -- the hyperbaric chamber, they just took that picture. He didn`t really sleep in that.
SMITH: So, that`s not real. And you know, I heard something, Flo, and maybe you can help me with this. I heard from another close friend of Michael Jackson that, sometimes, he would step out and say things to the press, maybe to get a bit of a reaction, but eventually, when the press turned on him a little bit, it angered him and made him want to withdraw.
Is that something that you heard? For example, I heard the hyperbaric chamber was something he kind of wanted to throw out there.
ANTHONY: Yes. He threw it out there. They delivered the picture over to the "National Enquirer" and it worked. I mean, it`s still showing the picture today, but you can look at that and see. I mean, he`s fully clothed. That wasn`t really how he was sleeping. But I would agree with the person that said that about him earlier.
He did make a lot of statements. You know, he was a prankster. He liked to see people`s reactions, but as the media began to turn on him, he did withdraw and became, you know, rather reclusive.
SMITH: You know, Stacy Kaiser, a lot of people would say it`s a bit of -- you can`t have your cake and eat it too situation. Michael Jackson kind of courting the media a little bit in the past, and when it backfires, he`s very upset. What is that -- does that tell you anything about him and his character?
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I work with a lot of celebrities, and they have a similar complaint. What it tells me about Michael is he wants to give what he wants to give. And that`s what we saw all along. When he was ready to give, he gave a 100 percent. And when he pulled back, he was gone 100 percent. He was a very extreme man, and I think that was evidence of that.
SMITH: You know, it`s an important point. I can, in some way, see how, I guess, some people would say that might interact with the way things are going in this trial maybe, because, Stacy, there`s this thought out there that maybe Michael Jackson was telling these doctors what to give him. And we cannot know that for sure. I want to say that first.
We can never know what was really going on in his mind. He`s not here to talk about it. But, at the same time, do you get the sense that maybe there was a bit of an employer-employee relationship here with him and Dr. Murray, not to absolve Dr. Murray of anything he might have done. But, is that -- have you seen that kind of interaction and you`re seeing that here?
KAISER: That is my opinion. Of course, I don`t know anything for specific either.
SMITH: Right.
KAISER: However, here`s what I can say. He was working for Michael Jackson. And, even some of the greatest professionals I know get caught up in the celebrity and want to please the celebrity and want to keep that relationship, and they will cross the line, even if it`s just a little bit so that they can keep that relationship.
SMITH: You know, Flo, talk to us about this. You have more insight than any of us do. In terms of being out there, and there`s one -- just one thing I want to show first. In terms of being out there, there was so much we didn`t know about Michael Jackson.
You know, we talk about his death now, but that child molestation trial, a lot of people talked about how that took the life out of him. I want to show you something that you said back during that 2005 trial. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: Of course, that`s not normal behavior for any adult, but as all of us that are familiar with Michael and with the Jackson family have said during the week, Michael, there`s one side of him that`s a very shrewd business man that is an adult. There`s another side of him that is a child.
And he relates to children. What everyone is forgetting here is this mother had she, herself, was in bed with Michael and the little girl and the little boy from February until June.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: I can`t imagine what that must have been like back then for him, Flo, but you see yourself six years ago. I have to tell you, Flo --
(LAUGHTER)
SMITH: Flo, what is this -- tell us about that experience with Michael and how that trial changed him forever.
ANTHONY: Well, you know, the first child molestation accusations did not go to trial. You know, Michael reached a settlement with them, that was Johnny Cochran`s suggestion. But the second one, the trial broke his spirit. I mean, you know, afterwards, I think that he was a broken spirit because he had been very kind to these people.
I mean, you know, the young man in question had cancer and that`s really how Michael got involved with him being a cancer patient, and he`d been so kind that he was totally taken aback when they turned around and accused him of molesting him.
SMITH: And so, that changed him. Now, --
ANTHONY: Yes, it did.
SMITH: Let`s talk about the children, because that`s another factor in all of this. And Stacy, I want to talk about this, because today, Dr. Murray talked about the effect on the children. That they were there at the hospital, and according to Dr. Murray, they`re crying. Paris says to Dr. Murray, you save so many patients in your life, but you couldn`t save my dad.
Later, according to Dr. Murray, she says I know you did your best. What do you think the effect all of this is on the children, because not only did we hear that tape, but we saw the picture of a deceased Michael Jackson in court today. A lot of us hope that they weren`t looking so they didn`t have to see that. What`s the effect of all this on them?
KAISER: I think the effect is really significant now, and it`s going to be huge as they grow up, because even if they didn`t see that picture now, that picture is on the internet forever.
SMITH: Yes.
KAISER: It`s something that they will see that their friends will see. And most of us, when we grieve for someone we lost, we get to grieve privately. And these children, even though they`re being sheltered in some ways, they`re grieving very publicly. They`re expected to come out at tributes and things like that, and it makes it harder for them to deal with the feelings that they`re having inside.
SMITH: But they went to this tribute concert. Do you think that was Katherine Jackson`s way of getting them away from all of this and keeping them safe so they don`t have to focus on the trial?
KAISER: I think it was a great distraction for them. They certainly looked happy, but, what I worry about is what`s going on behind the scenes. Are these kids getting their emotions taken care of not just with Katherine, who I`m sure is doing great job, but with a counselor of some sort.
SMITH: All right. You know what, we`ll be right back. We`ll continue talking about Michael Jackson and his life. We`ll talk to Flo Anthony about her experiences with him. Got a lot to talk about, so keep it right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SMITH: Welcome back to Dr. Drew. I`m Ryan Smith filling in for Dr. Drew tonight. And what a day it was in court today. Not only did we hear Dr. Murray`s voice in court, but we also heard from the medical examiner who said that Michael Jackson`s death was a homicide. He also said that Michael Jackson couldn`t have self-administered propofol to himself. Big blow to the defense.
But you know, right now, we`re talking about Michael Jackson because his medical history came out in this case. We`re talking about who he really was. Now, I want to go back out to Flo Anthony. Stacy Kaiser is also with me. Flo, you know, it`s interesting with Michael Jackson. And first, we dug up an old clip of you and Michael Jackson on "Inside Edition." So, let`s take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We caught Michael mingling with the extras and joking with the crew. There were no surgical masks and no hovering body guards. Michael`s good friend, Flo Anthony was there.
ANTHONY: There are all these rumors going around that Michael Jackson video shoot, you`re not allowed to look at him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: Oh, Flo, we have all the good pictures of you from the past.
ANTHONY: I don`t think I had a hairdresser in the 1990s.
(LAUGHTER)
ANTHONY: God --
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
SMITH: Well, Flo, I got to tell you. What strikes you about this video, Michael Jackson looked great. He was talking and meeting with crew. He was hugging you. Was that really Michael Jackson at his best?
ANTHONY: Oh, yes. Afterwards, everybody went over to the Motown Cafe. He was always at his best. I was also in the video shoot for the scream video with he and Janet. And at that time, Janet`s husband said, you know what, you can get in NASA easier than you can get in here, Michael must love you. So, you know, he was -- I never saw him when he wasn`t at his best.
He was always jovial. Even after that second trial, the child molestation accusations, when I spoke to him, I was telling him about all these e-mails that I wanted him to see that the bands were sending me, and he`s -- you know, that were in support. He said, oh, I want to see the e- mails. He was always enthusiastic and very happy whenever I saw him.
SMITH: All right. You know, and I got to tell you, he will -- we remember that enthusiasm about him so much when we talk about Michael Jackson. Now, one other thing I want to ask you, Flo, we`re short on time, so I want to get your thought on this. Debbie Rowe, now, I know you had communication with her before.
We see the children all the time, but we don`t see her in all of this. What do you know about her relationship with Michael Jackson, and is she, if you happen to know, talking to the kids at this point, communicating with them?
ANTHONY: I don`t know her relationship with the kids at this point, but what a lot of people don`t realize is that Michael had an 18-year relationship with Debbie, prior to Prince being born and him marrying her, and Michael also wrote "Remember the Time" for Debbie.
So, their relationship even went a lot deeper than a lot of people realize. She wasn`t just some sort of incubator, and she told me, you know, they had sex, and that`s how those two children were conceived.
SMITH: All right. And you know what, we never heard that before that that`s why he wrote that song just for her, their interaction.
ANTHONY: Yes.
SMITH: Stacy, real quick, that Debbie Rowe may not be in the picture. We don`t know for sure. What does that tell you about the relationship Katherine Jackson is essential in the kids` life?
KAISER: It`s going to be really important that Katherine be a supportive and terrific role model, because it seems like she is the primary player. They were already connected to her. They already have a relationship with her, and that`s going to help them through this.
SMITH: All right. Folks, thank you so much for joining us tonight. Thank you also to Stacy, to Flo. Dr. Drew is going to be back tomorrow. Stay tuned to HLN for up to the minute coverage of the Conrad Murray trial or just go to hlntv.com/michaeljackson for the very latest. You can get it 24 hours a day.
Have a great night.
END
